Cheating: Running under anothers bib and effecting results??

[ultramickeymouse]

Hi all,

I wanted your opinion on this issue.

A runner runs under another runners bib. They basically didn't pay for the entry, didn't sign the waiver(major legal issue as an RD: especially medically), and took a medal as a bandit runner. What do you think about this? As a RD, a runner who runs with a chip under another's name who thus effects overall and age division results would be banned for life in my races. Is this cool?

My wife and I were bumped down as were hundreds of others.

[Sarah_Rose]

I don't see it as cheating. The way I see it, one race entry was purchased and one race entry was used. In my mind, cheating is cutting the course or taking a medal for a race you did not finish.

What illegal bib "transferring" does do is cheat the athlete of their official time, however. They finished a race, but did not get the official credit for it.

However, I would much rather see a race entry used than forfeited, even if it's not by the person on the entry form. I've personally used a charity race entry (from a charity I have run for several times in the past and volunteer for twice a week) when the original runner became sick at the last minute and couldn't run. The charity would rather have the bib used, and so would I. I'm sure the RD disagreed, but, they never knew. :upsidedow

[cewait]

I don't see it as cheating. The way I see it, one race entry was purchased and one race entry was used. In my mind, cheating is cutting the course or taking a medal for a race you did not finish.

What illegal bib "transferring" does do is cheat the athlete of their official time, however. They finished a race, but did not get the official credit for it.

However, I would much rather see a race entry used than forfeited, even if it's not by the person on the entry form. I've personally used a charity race entry (from a charity I have run for several times in the past and volunteer for twice a week) when the original runner became sick at the last minute and couldn't run. The charity would rather have the bib used, and so would I. I'm sure the RD disagreed, but, they never knew. :upsidedow

So not following the rules is the RD cheating the bandit athlete because they don’t get credit for the race? By your definition it is still cheating but you have made the bandit the victim of cheating. I disagree 100%. As a 4th place finisher I would be PO’d to find that I was beaten by a bandit runner half my age! There IS a difference between the two scenarios here. The charity owns so many openings in a race. The charity could care less who runs under what bib as long as all bibs are sold and they collect their funds. But a substituted runner is still a bandit if the charity does not notify the RD.

As an RD, I must purchase insurance and ensure a fair and well equipped race is run and yes I am concerned about who runs. The RD must also be concerned about those few tragic events that can occur in an endurance activity. How tragic would it be if a bandit were to fall seriously ill on course and the RD or med staff could only contact the emergency number provided by the original entrant. DO NOT PUT THE RD IN THIS POSITION. We think entrance fees are high now, have a bandit with a litigious next of kin die on course and see how high next year’s fees will be; if there is a next year.

In the case Robert laid out the bandit cheated someone out of an age group hardware award. What the bandit should do is return the hardware and explain that they did not earn the place, allowing the rightful winner of the hardware to receive their recognition. As an RD I would thank the bandit for being a stand up person and ban them for a year. If I found out about it from other means I would ban the runner from all events I run. Not sure if for life but it would be for a while.

[VernRDH]

Being new to racing, I don't understand why you can't transfer your bib to someone else officially, by notifying the RD. If someone is injured or ill and can't compete, then someone else could in their place. Can't they just have some type of form for transferring the entry?

Is it cheating to use someone elses entry? I guess if they are faster or have a chance of placing high in the division it does cheat other runners.

[MarathonFanatic]

Did the so-called "bandit" take a finisher's medal, or an age-group award medal?

I'd be upset if I was bumped out of an award by this, but if it was just a finisher's medal - who cares? At least they earned it. It's not like they jumped on the course mid-race and claimed something they didn't put the miles in to complete, which I think is a FAR WORSE crime than using someone else's bib number.

[jmasgat]

I think Charles raises some reasonable points as to why swappng bibs--without RD knowledge--may have negative consequences. As for results/medal standings, I also agree that it would be an unfortunate situation to displace a runner out of an age group or other result.

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura

[Kristi1357]

I'd be upset if I was bumped out of an award by this, but if it was just a finisher's medal - who cares? At least they earned it. It's not like they jumped on the course mid-race and claimed something they didn't put the miles in to complete, which I think is a FAR WORSE crime than using someone else's bib number.
::yes::

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura
::yes::

[bunnyfoo]

Until I read Robert's post, I wasn't aware of some of the other issues involved in giving a bib to another runner. I know that popular races often sell out and for some people, buying a bib from someone else is the only way they can race. I'm also another person who wishes that there were more races where you could pay a small fee and have the bib number transferred. I won't run with someone else's name on my bib but that's just me.

I'm not sure how I feel about the cheating issue. I guess it would be
more clear cut if runner A had asked runner B to wear his bib knowing that he/she would win the prize. In any case, I think that runner should return the award since he didn't really run the race.

[Terri5176]

In January of this year, I was registered to run Goofy. In this case, the name was appropriate - as I was nowhere near ready! As it turned out, I was swept at mile 11 during the half. My left foot was a mess - and I was unable to continue.

So - when Sunday rolled around, and it came time for the full marathon, I knew I was injured, knew I had no business being on the course, and forfeited my entry fee. I did not enter the race course at any time.

However, like Maura pointed out, if there were a way to give someone my number (for the full only - not Goofy) I would have gladly done it. I would have paid a transfer fee myself....no question.

[dsnyfan21]

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline.

Maura

First of all, I have to say I don't know what is in the first post as I have that ignored on my side.
I agree with the last part of Maura's statement here. To outwardly accuse a person who is a WISH teammate, is a slippery slope. Not sure what the underlying reason or purpose is for this - to embarass the person publicly, to show some people are "higher" up on the moral ladder, to point out what can happen if you switch bibs/are a bandit/getting a medal that you never paid a race entry to get, to get revenge? I personlly think this could have been posted differently.

-Tracy

[MarathonFanatic]

Hmmm - as for the "not paying for the entry"...

The first post never says that the original bib owner did not receive reimbursement for the entry fee from the bib-acquirer. So other than the issue of the acquirer's name not being officially associated with the bib, the whole "who paid" isn't necessarily an issue - besides, SOMEONE paid for it regardless. If the initial owner didn't want reimbursement from the acquirer, then that is between those two. (It'd be more like receiving the entry fee as a gift.)

[scoolover]

My opinion is that I could care less, especially at big races like the ones that Disney puts on. I have sold bibs on two occations for people who signed up and couldn't go to Disney races. I provided a service to two people. If Disney allowed it, I certainly would have facilitated an, "honest" transaction. I assure you that the people who I sold the bibs to did not effect the results (sorry Erin ;), but I realizt that's not the point.

If I some how came into enough money to make it down in January, I would bring a half bib from last year and run the half.

[zakismom]

Although I don't have a problem with someone running under another persons bib if that person can't run, I don't think that the 'bandit' should be eligible for any prizes, however, they should be allowed to collect a medal if they completed the course. It would be better if the bib could be transferred.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should someone be allowed to collect a medal for a race in which they did NOT complete the ENTIRE distance of that race ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, DURING THAT PARTICULAR RACE.

[wtpclc]

Although I don't have a problem with someone running under another persons bib if that person can't run, I don't think that the 'bandit' should be eligible for any prizes, however, they should be allowed to collect a medal if they completed the course. It would be better if the bib could be transferred.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should someone be allowed to collect a medal for a race in which they did NOT complete the ENTIRE distance of that race ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, DURING THAT PARTICULAR RACE.

::yes::

I think Charles raises some reasonable points as to why swappng bibs--without RD knowledge--may have negative consequences. As for results/medal standings, I also agree that it would be an unfortunate situation to displace a runner out of an age group or other result.

So why, after all ths time, hasn't anyone figured out a way to allow for legit number swapping? I understand it could present some additional logisitical issues, but does it really happen so frequently that it is would be a real burden? Even airlines allow some changing--for a price, and we all know how difficult they can be!

A couple of final comments....the bandit "not paying for the entry"---that is an issue between the bandit and the entered runner since the race still got their money. And finally, and I hope delicately phrased...I can see raising this issue as a "Hypothetical case"---there are legitimate points to be made and heard---but to half state that it is a WISH'er and then to make the final comment "Beware one of these runners stated we were never friends nor spoke off the forum" sounds more like trying the person in the court of public opinion. If this is a personal issue, I think it should be resolved offline. (Bolding added by me)
::yes::

Finally, there is a difference betweeen a bandit where no bib was ver paid for and someone ran without contributing $ to course support and supplies and such and using a paid for bib, allowed by person who paid for it. With the exception of teh med issues and teh age, it's like my giving my dh a race entry for his b-day. Or having something else that I can't use and a friend can.

[RogerM213]

Sorry I am new here but those that know me know I say what is on my mind!

Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black here.

Or could we say those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Enough said. Have a nice day people.

[Kristi1357]

:lmao:

[JoanneNC]

I do believe that it's ethically wrong as the RD should be aware of each and every person that runs their race for the medical/insurance and statistics reason. Of course all of this could be solved by allowing the transfers of bibs.. The Army 10 miler does it by opening a forum that facilitates the transfers between racers. So it can be done

The real problem with this is the wrong person running does throw off the statistics. Be it the number of men vs woman and then again in the age groups. Granted, the chance of one illegal bib transfer throwing off the top results is slim to none but if 10% of the total racers were incorrect, it's much more of an issue. I would hate to be further down in my female age group because 10% of my fellow age/sex group runners were ran by males..

The race is receiving the money to support the cause and the expenses

[ultramickeymouse]

Transfers are set by Race Directors. Some RD's allow it, and some don't. Being a Race Director of small races, I don't allow them. They create a lot of work for very little gain for the RD. $10 transfer fee is not worth the headaches. Can you imagine how much grief it would cause for a race like Disney's?

Runners selling there bibs helps the runner who can't run but doesn't compensate the RD. This only creates a whole new set of problems.

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money. Don't create issues for Race Directors who put lots of time and effort into races.

[zakismom]

Transfers are set by Race Directors. Some RD's allow it, and some don't. Being a Race Director of small races, I don't allow them. They create a lot of work for very little gain for the RD. $10 transfer fee is not worth the headaches. Can you imagine how much grief it would cause for a race like Disney's?

Runners selling there bibs helps the runner who can't run but doesn't compensate the RD. This only creates a whole new set of problems.

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money. Don't create issues for Race Directors who put lots of time and effort into races.


So, I want to make sure I understand. Let's say, for example, that you were unable to arrive in time to participate in the Disneyland 5k. You should NOT sell your bibs?

[wtpclc]

I wanted your opinion on this issue. :confused3

[ultramickeymouse]

So, I want to make sure I understand. Let's say, for example, that you were unable to arrive in time to participate in the Disneyland 5k. You should NOT sell your bibs?

Yes, that is correct. I don't know anyone who did that, including myself.

I will be losing $285 in Jan for an unused Goofy entry that I could easily sell.

[zakismom]

Yes, that is correct. I don't know anyone who did that, including myself.

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[ultramickeymouse]

:confused3

I'm sorry, I didn't' read the part that you only wanted our opinion if it agreed with yours.

I do want your opinions. I just voiced my opinion that you should follow the no transfer rule if an RD sets them. I applaud races that allow it. Those RD's are very generous in allowing this.

[MarathonFanatic]

Transfers are set by Race Directors. Some RD's allow it, and some don't. Being a Race Director of small races, I don't allow them. They create a lot of work for very little gain for the RD. $10 transfer fee is not worth the headaches. Can you imagine how much grief it would cause for a race like Disney's?

Runners selling there bibs helps the runner who can't run but doesn't compensate the RD. This only creates a whole new set of problems.

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money. Don't create issues for Race Directors who put lots of time and effort into races.

If they are small races, it should be relatively easy to do bib transfers - and then it would eliminate the issues of the medical liability and awards. I have worked MANY small races (50 to 2000 runners) and transferring bibs (especially if the races are not chip timed) is a VERY simple process. Even with chip timing, the process is a matter of having a volunteer or employee of the timing system adjust entries in the computer.

Also, exactly how does it benefit the runner who can't run, especially if they donated their bib to someone else?? Not everyone requires repayment of the entry fee they paid to pass along their bib.



As a runner, I want to reiterate that having someone finish and collect a medal that wasn't officially entered is much more acceptable than an injured runner jumping in on the last portion of a course in order to collect the finisher's medal that they did not earn.

[RogerM213]

Although I don't have a problem with someone running under another persons bib if that person can't run, I don't think that the 'bandit' should be eligible for any prizes, however, they should be allowed to collect a medal if they completed the course. It would be better if the bib could be transferred.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should someone be allowed to collect a medal for a race in which they did NOT complete the ENTIRE distance of that race ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, DURING THAT PARTICULAR RACE.

Who would stoop that low Erica?

I have to say I agree 100%

We now return you to the originally scheduled show already in progress!!!!

[ultramickeymouse]

As a runner, I want to reiterate that having someone finish and collect a medal that wasn't officially entered is much more acceptable than an injured runner jumping in on the last portion of a course in order to collect the finisher's medal that they did not earn.

As an RD, a runner who runs a race as a bandit(not officially entered and signed a waiver) with a chip that effects the results of the race is NOT accectible at all.

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

[zakismom]

As an RD, a runner who runs a race as a bandit(not officially entered and signed a waiver) with a chip that effects the results of the race is NOT accectible at all.

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

So as an RD you are saying that is acceptable to CHEAT the course to get a medal because you feel that you have paid a fee for the MEDAL, not for the experience of the race itself?

[MarathonFanatic]

As an RD, a runner who runs a race as a bandit(not officially entered and signed a waiver) with a chip that effects the results of the race is NOT accectible at all.

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

I think most other runners would GREATLY disagree with this last statement.

A Finisher's Medal is for those that FINISH the race - the WHOLE race. Otherwise it would be given at packet pick-up and called an Entrant's Medal. Those that ENTER, get a shirt. Those that FINISH, get a medal.

[RogerM213]

Some race directors will do anything for attention and are better off ignored and muted.

[MarathonFanatic]

As an RD, a runner who runs a race as a bandit(not officially entered and signed a waiver) with a chip that effects the results of the race is NOT accectible at all.

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.


Can I get a list of your races? I want to pay the entry fee and jump in on the last mile so that I can get the extra bling. All other races discourage this! I'm happy to know it's acceptable in your events.

[ultramickeymouse]

So as an RD you are saying that is acceptable to CHEAT the course to get a medal because you feel that you have paid a fee for the MEDAL, not for the experience of the race itself?
If it doesn't effect the Overall Results or Age Divisions results and are a legitamatly registered runner, than yes. I would have already bought the medal with their race fees. If someone get the medal so be it. It doesn't effect the race. The runner isn't in the results and thus NOT a finisher(not in results). What ever they do with the medal, is there own issue and they have to deal with that.

A question: I collect all Disney medals from all races. I buy them on EBay and other places. Does this make me bad? I have medals from races I never completed.

[MarathonFanatic]

If it doesn't effect the Overall Results or Age Divisions results and are a legitamatly registered runner, than yes. I would have already bought the medal with their race fees. If someone get the medal so be it. It doesn't effect the race. The runner isn't in the results and thus NOT a finisher(not in results). What ever they do with the medal, is there own issue and they have to deal with that.

A question: I collect all Disney medals from all races. I buy them on EBay and other places. Does this make me bad? I have medals from races I never completed.

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine. But for ANYONE to think that simply paying an entry fee justifies accepting a medal next to all the true finishers is absolutely absurd!!! No medal should be accepted at a finish line that is not 100% earned. By doing this, you are insulting all of those individuals that endured the blood, sweat and tears despite hardships and injuries to have that medal placed around their neck or in their hand.

By using your logic, I could have bagged a distance run earlier this year due to a torn hamstring, but still taken the finisher's medal. Just the thought of this is nauseating.

[zakismom]

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine. But for ANYONE to think that simply paying an entry fee justifies accepting a medal next to all the true finishers is absolutely absurd!!! No medal should be accepted at a finish line that is not 100% earned. By doing this, you are insulting all of those individuals that endured the blood, sweat and tears despite hardships and injuries to have that medal placed around their neck or in their hand.

I am going to end my part in this discussion by saying that I agree with you 100%. I have not headed to a race thinking, "I'll just do some of it." I am currently fighting an illness that is aggravated by the rigors of running, especially long distance. I will line up at the start(s) in January and see where my journey goes. If that journey ends early I will not be taking a shortcut to the finish just to collect a piece of hardware, because at that point that's all that it would be. Each and every time I participate in a race, I am proud, not only of myself, but of every other person that crosses that start line, knowing we have done our best to get there, I am even prouder when I complete the distance and cross the finish line, knowing the hard work it took to get there was worth it. That medal is not a validation of showing up that day and participating in 'some of it,' it is validation for the work that went into the race BEFORE that day and DURING that day.

[Snarky2]

As an RD, a runner who runs a race as a bandit(not officially entered and signed a waiver) with a chip that effects the results of the race is NOT accectible at all.

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

You are such a hypocrit...go back under the rock!!!

[ksoehrlein]

If Disney's RD followed the same logic, they would pass out medals on the sweeper bus. Accepting a medal for going the full distance when you've done only the last x miles is a slap in the face to the person who completed only the first x miles before getting swept. Both individuals registered and paid, both completed x miles, but only one gave it their best effort to go the full distance while the other gets the bling.

[wtpclc]

That's funny. I have received age group medals and not felt like I deserved tehm because I gave up at some point and did not put my all into it. I can't comprehend wanting a medal for a race I didn't finish. To each his own...

Personally, though, I would rather see a medal go to someone who is running unders omeone else's bib that finished than to someone who did not complete the whole event. Just takes the meaning out of it to me.

[ultramickeymouse]

You are such a hypocrit...go back under the rock!!!

With 2 posts it looks like you crawled out from a rock(and thus should go back under it) :thumbsup2

[ultramickeymouse]

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine.

What about the buyer of these medals? If they NEVER did the race how would you feel about them? Ok for the to put in a case for collection? Ok to wear around the office, work, or parks?

[Snarky2]

With 2 posts it looks like you crawled out from a rock(and thus should go back under it) :thumbsup2

Thanks Robert....I will and with a clean conscious knowing I completed every mile of every race I have ever run....I am an honest individual....you have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MarathonFanatic]

What about the buyer of these medals? If they NEVER did the race how would you feel about them? Ok for the to put in a case for collection? Ok to wear around the office, work, or parks?

I already answered this. If bought from eBay as a collector, that's fine... as something to add to a collection.

But once again, to cross a finish line of a race YOU DID NOT START and accept a medal next to someone who has put in the hard work and dedication is 100% insulting.

Buying a medal off of eBay is NOT the same as accepting one as if you both started and finished the race.

[ultramickeymouse]

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine. But for ANYONE to think that simply paying an entry fee justifies accepting a medal next to all the true finishers is absolutely absurd!!! No medal should be accepted at a finish line that is not 100% earned. By doing this, you are insulting all of those individuals that endured the blood, sweat and tears despite hardships and injuries to have that medal placed around their neck or in their hand.

By using your logic, I could have bagged a distance run earlier this year due to a torn hamstring, but still taken the finisher's medal. Just the thought of this is nauseating.

Just paying for a race doesn't allow you to get a medal but does it allow you to to do with your bib whatever you want to? Sell it? Transfer it?

Also, why would someone who bought a bib to run a race under another's person name wear the timing chip to give the person who didn't run an "Official" finish in the race and in the records for life. Medals come and go but the Official results last forever!

[ultramickeymouse]

I already answered this. If bought from eBay as a collector, that's fine... as something to add to a collection.

But once again, to cross a finish line of a race YOU DID NOT START and accept a medal next to someone who has put in the hard work and dedication is 100% insulting.

Buying a medal off of eBay is NOT the same as accepting one as if you both started and finished the race.

What if the person just sold the medal on Ebay? They would than not be in the results and also have nothing(no medal) from the race. It would be like they were never there or did anything. They would know they never finished the race and would have nothing proving it.

[ohMom]

sometimes you have to agree to disagree


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[goofyinohio]

It looks to me like you're talking about two different issues.

I'm assuming you are talking hypotheticals and you haven't done this, but it really makes me sick that someone would cut the course to get a Finishers medal. It's not a medal you can buy in the World Of Disney Store, you can't pick it up in the Emporium it's something you have to earn. You have to Finish the distance you signed up for. When you pay your fee at least at Disney it clearly says all Finishers will receive blank (Donald, Mickey, Princess, etc) medal.

I don't think you can say one is OK, but the other isn't. If you are talking about people who sell bibs because of injury, financial reasons or whatever or give them to someone else then if you are talking about the official rules then no it's not OK. However you can't say the bib wasn't paid for because someone paid for it. Therefore you should already have everything including the medal that the original person bought. My personal feeling is if they chose to do this that the person should not wear a chip or whatever timing device you have so as to not affect the Finishers Standings. I don't agree with it, but I can understand.

Folks I'm nobody, but this is the WISH forum. We're one big family here so please try to keep this to a discussion and not attacks.

[ahoff]

I do not have a problem with someone running the whole race and getting a finishing medal under someone else's bib. I do not think the results are going to be skewed that much. I would look to sell it to someone I knew, one who probably would do no better in the final results than I. Just as if I had a ticket to a concert and couldn't go, I would look to sell my ticket/bib to reclaim my fee. Better it gets used rather than be wasted.

[ultramickeymouse]

I do not have a problem with someone running the whole race and getting a finishing medal under someone else's bib. I do not think the results are going to be skewed that much. I would look to sell it to someone I knew, one who probably would do no better in the final results than I. Just as if I had a ticket to a concert and couldn't go, I would look to sell my ticket/bib to reclaim my fee. Better it gets used rather than be wasted.

Here is what happened at the New York Marathon:

Race violations are especially troubling to organizers when they affect competitive integrity. The analysis of last year’s marathon showed that participants competing with someone else’s race bib deprived two runners of celebrating age-group victories on race day.

A 19-year-old in the field gave his bib to someone five years older, and that person posted the best time in the 18-19 division. The real division winner, Joseph Keegan of Long Island, did not find out he was first until this spring. In July, he said, he received his award, a Tiffany crystal tray. Still, Mr. Keegan said, he wished he had known of his victory on race day.

“I would have felt proud of myself,” he said. “My family came in, my girlfriend came in. I would have been able to say: ‘Look, see? You came and supported me and this is what you get.’ ”

In the men’s 60-64 division, a 61-year-old from Italy gave his bib to a 25-year-old friend, who posted a time close to the world record for the 60-64 age group. The real winner was Alan Miller, who has run the New York City Marathon more than 20 times but will miss it this year because he is battling cancer.

Mr. Miller said he attended postrace gatherings each year, one with the New York Police Department’s running club and another with friends at Mickey Mantle’s restaurant on Central Park South. If he had known on race day last year that he won his age group and that an award was headed his way, Mr. Miller said, drinks would have been on him.

“It would have been extra special,” he said.

[dsnyfan21]

Wow, a lot of moral compassing going on here.

Also think that the medal is an earned medal, EARNED. Otherwise, just hand it out at packet pickup, right? I mean really. Start the course, hop on the monorail at TTC back to EPCOT, jump back into course and grab your "hard earned" medal for instance? It is a finishers medal, to me anyway. You purchase the chance to do a distance, you get a shirt that says you paid and are participating in it. The medal at the end is for you completing the entire race, it signifies something deep down. It really takes away from the time, sweat, tear, hours, injuries to have someone not complete an entire course - course cutter - and then accept the medal as if nothing happened, chip or no chip. I mean somethings you aren't really going to be able to control esp at huge races like Disney, but really, course cutting or banditing or whatever just doesn't seem right to those who complete every step of a race. Most people here (not to insult anyone) are not going to win awards or age placements at Disney, if you did race under someone elses bib and won, I would hope you would not accept the award as that other person. Just wouldn't seem right.

-Tracy

[runtime]

(A running bud directed me as they know this is a topic of interest to me. I hope you don't mind a DISboards newbie chiming in.)

Race Directors have every right to set their rules. If you don't like the races rules than you should not enter them. When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money.

I agree with the above 100%. It is a market place. If you don't like the product, don't buy it. I.E. if you don't like the race rules, don't register for the race. Whether or not you feel the rules are fair and just is irrelevant. By registering, you've agreed to them and now it is morally appropriate to hold up your end of the bargain as a participant -- just as you expect other participants to do, and just as you expect the RD to hold up their end of the agreement regarding race specifics (course, chip-timing, t-shirts, etc.).

With respect to the original post and question, then given all that, I would also agree that if the race does not allow for bib transfers, then you shouldn't be transferring/selling/giving away your bib.

I know we've strayed off topic from your original post a bit, but that said, I'm not sure how your above sentiment with respect to adherence to race rules jives with your words below. If you feel that, "When you register, you should figure that if you can't run, you just lost your money.", then how is it that you are seemingly okay with saying, "A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable."?
Isn't that considered breaking a rule of the race? Doesn't it contradict your first statement?

A person who is a registered runner running under their own bib who does not wear a chip and thus not effect the results joins the race course late and gets a medal(that they paid for) is acceptable. It doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves. As an RD you look at the event as a whole.

I know you say that "it doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves", but isn't that point (which, is itself arguable) irrelevant given what looks like our shared view on adherence to race rules as outlined above?

Race registration language usually says something to the effect of "all finishers will receive commemorative medals". If you accept my sample language, then it seems the only defense would be to say that a "finisher" is defined as something other than a registered participant who starts the race, stays on course, and finishes the race in the time allotted for. If that is not a "finisher", then what is? If that is a "finisher", then how can someone who does meet those requirements accept a finisher's medal and still be abiding by the terms/expectations/rules of the race?

Sorry if I'm misreading something here and that I'm not helping this thread stay on topic. But the comments interest me (as ethics always do). Can you help me understand the apparent discrepancy in your two statements?

Thanks much.

[Creativebeth]

I know this thread is from another issue, but I have to chime in.

I ran a race in March 2009.....finished towards the back of the pack, and didn't receive a medal. They ran out of medals, so I was out of luck. If people collected a medal they didn't earn, but were ahead of me, they got MY medal. If people don't have intregrity to only accept the medal they earned, I hope they know that they are hurting fellow runnners. I would never accept a medal that I didn't earn, but that's me. I know the world is full of the 'self-entitled' that think they deserve everything they want. I was running that particular race for Nancy (PaDisneyFan) and was to give that medal to her for her fight with breast cancer. That didn't happen because some selfish person ahead of me.

I have a friend that did a race, and again didn't get a medal.....to find out someone she knows (that ran too) took FIVE medals at the end to 'share' with his kids......guess that was ok too!

Beth

[ultramickeymouse]

I don't think you can say one is OK, but the other isn't.

That is a fair statement. That is the point I was making here. The person who I originally discussed said their way is ok but the other isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I was showing how people can perceive an issue very differently.

Another question: If no medals were issued at a race, which of these scenarios would be ok?

[runtime]

That is a fair statement. That is the point I was making here. The person who I originally discussed said their way is ok but the other isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I was showing how people can perceive an issue very differently.

Another question: If no medals were issued at a race, which of these scenarios would be ok?

Assuming the scenarios we're talking about are:
1) Bib sale/transfer/give away.
2) "Finishing" a race without completing the entire course

then, I would say:
1) Depends on what the particular race rules say. If they don't allow bib transfers, then no go.
2) This is never okay, regardless of what finisher premiums are given or not given. Crossing the finish area is itself a premium. Part of the very definition of being a race participant is completing the course. It would be like counting a run in baseball without touching all the bases -- in both cases, it is an underlying fundamental of the sport.

[ultramickeymouse]

I know this thread is from another issue, but I have to chime in.

I ran a race in March 2009.....finished towards the back of the pack, and didn't receive a medal. They ran out of medals, so I was out of luck.

I have a friend that did a race, and again didn't get a medal.....to find out someone she knows (that ran too) took FIVE medals at the end to 'share' with his kids......guess that was ok too!

Beth

You missed the point that it is the responsibility of the Race Director to have a medal for all runners. I always buy enough for all entrants!

If staff are giving medals to people who didn't sign up and pay for the race is another issue. That is a Race Management issue. If that happened at Disney, who would you blame?

[ultramickeymouse]

It would be like counting a run in baseball without touching all the bases -- in both cases, it is an underlying fundamental of the sport.
In your case here, that run would show up on the scoreboard and be listed in the baseball record books for all time. It would effect many people including the other team and possible all teams in baseball.

Someone who doesn't have a chip at a race "doesn't exist". It doesn't effect the overall results, the sex results, or age division results. The person effects themselves. Everyone else gets their medal that registered for the race and gets listed correctly in the official results.

[runtime]

In your case here, that run would show up on the scoreboard and be listed in the baseball record books for all time. It would effect many people including the other team and possible all teams in baseball.

Someone who doesn't have a chip at a race "doesn't exist". It doesn't effect the overall results, the sex results, or age division results. The person effects themselves. Everyone else gets their medal that registered for the race and gets listed correctly in the official results.

You are answering the question, "who is negatively impacted by the action?".
I am answering the question, "is it a violation of the race registration agreement?".
I think the latter question is more on topic, no? Who is negatively impacted by rules sounds like a completely different discussion. Maybe it is an input for the creation of rules, but I thought this conversation started from the point where the rules already existed.

It sounds like you are trying to say that the only "rules" that need to be adhered to are those that affect others negatively. I am saying that is completely irrelevant. A rule is a rule. When you register, you agree to them.

I think I outlined this a bit better in my original post. If possible, I'd still appreciate your thoughts on the discrepancy that I think is more apparent there.

ETA: Added the words in green above.

[goofyinohio]

Robert - So Again if we are talking official rules here you (thinking it's OK to just get a medal) or Original person you discussed this with (Thinks it's OK to sell/buy a bib when the rules say you can't) are both in the wrong.

You have to Finish the race and whatever that distance is to get a Finisher's Medal and if you take/buy a bib from someone and the race rules say you can't transfer or use someone else's bib then you shouldn't do it.

[runtime]

So Again if we are talking official rules here you are both in the wrong. You have to Finish the race and whatever that distance is to get a Finisher's Medal and if you take/buy a bib from someone and the race rules say you can't transfer or use someone else's bib then you shouldn't do it.

Sorry. For clarification, who does "both" refer to in your post above? ultramickeymouse and runtime, or the 2 hypothetical runners?

[RogerM213]

Is this the totally useless post thread or did I turn right when I should have turned left?:rotfl:

[ultramickeymouse]

Ok, from a rules point both are wrong. My point is you can't come out verbally(like person I mentioned about banditing the race) and condemn one way when they were also violating the rules. Again, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I am bringing out their issue as well. They felt they did nothing wrong which is not true. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Both may violate rules but only one effects others as well. Violating the transfer rule and wearing the persons chip also effects the Official results by giving a person who NEVER even attempted the race an Official finish. This than effects the overall, sex, and age division permanent records. The records live on forever and medals get lost, sold, and will go away. Throwing away a medal removes any evidence of someones transgression. By effecting the results, one person gets credit for finishing the race. Another gets a medal they didn't register for as well(or maybe they gave it to the person who didn't run and thus they now have a medal from a race they didn't finish).

I just wanted people to realize that there are hidden ramifications to the whole violating the transfer policy.

[goofyinohio]

Sorry. For clarification, who does "both" refer to in your post above? ultramickeymouse and runtime, or the 2 hypothetical runners?

Fixed my post so as to not confuse anyone. All I'm saying is if we are going by official rules none of this is either permitted or OK.

[ultramickeymouse]

Is this the totally useless post thread or did I turn right when I should have turned left?:rotfl:

It's where you pad your post count for sure :thumbsup2

[ultramickeymouse]

Sorry. For clarification, who does "both" refer to in your post above? ultramickeymouse and runtime, or the 2 hypothetical runners?

Runtime: What is your name? As you can tell in my siggie, I am Robert. Just like to know names of who I am having a great discussion with :thumbsup2

[MarathonFanatic]

Okay - I was going to keep quiet - but do you REALLY think that rules only matter if the breaking of said rules effects someone's place in a race??

As I've said before, taking a medal you did not earn DOES hurt and insult those that have started and finished the race - it insults all of the hard work, effort, sweat and tears that have gone into the training and actual completion of the race, despite any hardships and injuries that they have gone through on the way.

Those that have known someone to do exactly this will back me up. From the moment we WITNESSED this happening, we all felt slighted and insulted.


I am by no means fast enough to ever place in a big race. It does not matter to me if I come in 500th or 5000th. What does matter is that those that crossed the line ahead of me - whether they are listed in the results or not - crossed the start line, completed the entirety of the course, and THEN (and only then) crossed the finish line.

[runtime]

Ok, from a rules point both are wrong. My point is you can't come out verbally(like person I mentioned about banditing the race) and condemn one way when they were also violating the rules. Again, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I am bringing out their issue as well. They felt they did nothing wrong which is not true. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Both may violate rules but only one effects others as well. Violating the transfer rule and wearing the persons chip also effects the Official results by giving a person who NEVER even attempted the race an Official finish. This than effects the overall, sex, and age division permanent records. The records live on forever and medals get lost, sold, and will go away. Throwing away a medal removes any evidence of someones transgression. By effecting the results, one person gets credit for finishing the race. Another gets a medal they didn't register for as well(or maybe they gave it to the person who didn't run and thus they now have a medal from a race they didn't finish).

I just wanted people to realize that there are hidden ramifications to the whole violating the transfer policy.

Re: "I just wanted people to realize that there are hidden ramifications to the whole violating the transfer policy."

I completely agree. And, it sounds like you agree that both racers broke rules in these situations.
(There seems to be some personal sidebar argument going on here regarding these topics, but I'm ignoring that since it seems to be irrelevant to the topics being discussed.)

Given that you can see that "there are hidden ramifications to the whole violating the transfer policy", doesn't it seem naive to think that they aren't hidden ramifications to breaking the other rule as well? Maybe we haven't defined them here, but that doesn't really matter, right (defining them sounds like another topic as well)? Because no one has listed any of these ramifications doesn't mean they don't exist, and whether or not they do doesn't matter -- it's like trying to say "person X is a nicer/better rule breaker than person Y because [justification]".

That said, I think it is silly to think that there are not negative ramifications of not competing on the entire course. At the very least, it is a moral and contractual failure. Both of these speak to the integrity of the sport and thus have HUGE impact on its participants, RDs, sponsors, etc.

[MarathonFanatic]

Runtime: What is your name? As you can tell in my siggie, I am Robert. Just like to know names of who I am having a great discussion with :thumbsup2

The whole point of being on a discussion board is the option of anonymity. If someone chooses not to put their name in their signature, you should respect that and not ask. If they wanted you to know, they'd tell you.

[runtime]

Runtime: What is your name? As you can tell in my siggie, I am Robert. Just like to know names of who I am having a great discussion with :thumbsup2

Hello, Robert.

I am not this bold IRL, so I like to continue to hide behind the cowardly veil of the web. [wink]

I also appreciate a good debate, so thanks for playing.

[ultramickeymouse]

The whole point of being on a discussion board is the option of anonymity. If someone chooses not to put their name in their signature, you should respect that and not ask. If they wanted you to know, they'd tell you.
I didn't realize WISH had become a forum where we hide from each other. We should at least know everyones first name out of courtesy.

I don't know why anyone on here would want to hide :confused3

[ultramickeymouse]

I find it funny that the only ones continuing this discussion are newly signed up forumites who hide there names from fellow WISH'ers :confused3

[MarathonFanatic]

I didn't realize WISH had become a forum where we hide from each other. We should at least know everyones first name out of courtesy.

I don't know why anyone on here would want to hide :confused3

It's not a matter of hiding - it's a matter of personal preference.

I have never revealed my name on ANY discussion board I've been a part of.

[MarathonFanatic]

I find it funny that the only ones continuing this discussion are newly signed up forumites who hide there names from fellow WISH'ers :confused3

How do you know we haven't been readers of WISH for a long time but have never actually activated an account?

Personally, I've been a reader of the WISH boards for years. Have found the information very helpful.

[runtime]

I didn't realize WISH had become a forum where we hide from each other. We should at least know everyones first name out of courtesy.

I don't know why anyone on here would want to hide :confused3

I have been on way too many boards where things get personal and go south. I've found that being somewhat less of "a person" helps avoid a bit of that -- especially since I like to debate (as I'm sure many know, unfortunately, lots of people think that disagreement is the same as anger).

Admittedly, this often plays out as the debates dissolving into people calling me out on my anonymity rather than on the content of my posts.

I also didn't realize that WISH had an understood underlying purpose of being social. If I've broken some rule, I apologize.

[runtime]

I find it funny that the only ones continuing this discussion are newly signed up forumites who hide there names from fellow WISH'ers :confused3

Oh no. Now it seems like you might be doing what I mentioned above. I hope not.

Admittedly, this often plays out as the debates dissolving into people calling me out on my anonymity rather than on the content of my posts.

Like I said before I was directed here by a runner who knows I like this topic. Honestly, as you probably are aware as an RD, it is a pretty hot topic. I wouldn't be surprised if others joined in just to participate on this conversation.

If you know of a runner ethics forum where this type of discussion happens regularly, I'll gladly play with you there as well. :thumbsup2

[ultramickeymouse]

Okay - I was going to keep quiet - but do you REALLY think that rules only matter if the breaking of said rules effects someone's place in a race??

As I've said before, taking a medal you did not earn DOES hurt and insult those that have started and finished the race - it insults all of the hard work, effort, sweat and tears that have gone into the training and actual completion of the race, despite any hardships and injuries that they have gone through on the way.

Those that have known someone to do exactly this will back me up. From the moment we WITNESSED this happening, we all felt slighted and insulted.


I am by no means fast enough to ever place in a big race. It does not matter to me if I come in 500th or 5000th. What does matter is that those that crossed the line ahead of me - whether they are listed in the results or not - crossed the start line, completed the entirety of the course, and THEN (and only then) crossed the finish line.

I thought we were talking hypothicals hiding MF.

Are you so vain that you live your life on what someone else does :confused3 ? I would think you would than be upset that someone who doesn't register for the race(regardless if a bib transfer or without a bib) gets all of the same experience of the race, aid, and medal for one that you paid for?

I don't judge my races on anything other than what I do. I know people cut courses and finish races without doing them. Does it bother me, no. It is there decision and they life with that! I don't go crying and sulking that this happens. It always has and always will. Long before you ever entered a race. Why get so upset. Be happy with what YOU accomplished. Life is too short to worry about others who don't have an impact on your race!

[ultramickeymouse]

How do you know we haven't been readers of WISH for a long time but have never actually activated an account?

Personally, I've been a reader of the WISH boards for years. Have found the information very helpful.

I don't understand hiding if you want to be part of a discussion :confused3

Glad you have been part of this forum as a lurker for years and I could get you to post :thumbsup2

[MarathonFanatic]

I thought we were talking hypothicals hiding MF.

Are you so vain that you live your life on what someone else does :confused3 ? I would think you would than be upset that someone who doesn't register for the race(regardless if a bib transfer or without a bib) gets all of the same experience of the race, aid, and medal for one that you paid for?

I don't judge my races on anything other than what I do. I know people cut courses and finish races without doing them. Does it bother me, no. It is there decision and they life with that! I don't go crying and sulking that this happens. It always has and always will. Long before you ever entered a race. Why get so upset. Be happy with what YOU accomplished. Life is too short to worry about others who don't have an impact on your race!


I'm just telling you that people ARE affected by someone jumping on the course - you seem to think that no one else is affected since said person is not in the results, but that's not the case. I know so because I've witnessed it. Whether or not something is documented in results does not give a 100% guarantee that it does or does not have an impact on the other runners.

[ultramickeymouse]

Oh no. Now it seems like you might be doing what I mentioned above. I hope not.



Like I said before I was directed here by a runner who knows I like this topic. Honestly, as you probably are aware as an RD, it is a pretty hot topic. I wouldn't be surprised if others joined in just to participate on this conversation.

If you know of a runner ethics forum where this type of discussion happens regularly, I'll gladly play with you there as well. :thumbsup2

Hope more of you lurkers and name hiders come out and play.

This discussion seems to have died.

As for worrying about things going south in discussions, I think people are much bolder and will say anything if they can hide. Thus people who hide their names help make this discussions go south because they have no ramifications to their actions. My opinion.

[ultramickeymouse]

I'm just telling you that people ARE affected by someone jumping on the course - you seem to think that no one else is affected since said person is not in the results, but that's not the case. I know so because I've witnessed it. Whether or not something is documented in results does not give a 100% guarantee that it does or does not have an impact on the other runners.

How does it effect you? Did this registered runner take aid so you didn't get any? Did they get in your way for a photo op? Did they take post race refreshments that you didn't get???

I am so confused :confused3

[NCDisneyMom]

First, just as an FYI...I am new to WISH, but obviously not new to the DIS. I only found this thread because it is the "lead" thread on the main DIS page for the WISH forum. So, of course, it caught my eye as I was scrolling down.

Regarding the topic on hand....

Both instances brought up here are wrong....period. However, it is possible that someone would not "realize" that giving away/accepting a bib to run in a race that they did not personally register for is wrong. I am relatively new to the running community and, if someone had offered me their bib a year ago, I probably would have just taken it without thinking twice. Still wrong, yes. But, I guess you can blame it on ignorance in some instances. Is this usually what happens? Most likely not, as most people are not going to be running races without some kind of knowledge of it. But, it could happen.

With that said, anyone with any morals, in my opinion, would know that not running the entire race and taking the reward at the end is not right. Does it affect my race? My finish? No. But would it upset me if I saw someone do it? Darn right it would! Why should someone else get the same reward for finishing, when they don't legitimately finish? Should a child get an A in science, for only doing half the work, when the rest of the class had to do all of it?

[MarathonFanatic]

Should a child get an A in science, for only doing half the work, when the rest of the class had to do all of it?

Great comparison!!!

[RogerM213]

I am not hiding and personally Robert I think it is sad that you continue to stir the pot. I guess when you seek attention it does not matter if it is positive or negative as long as you are getting it.

That said I will move on as nothing you have to say regarding rules of any kind holds weight with me.

Sorry WISH forumites for this post. But I stand on my own integrity in making it. Something I can do proudly and without reservation!!

[MarathonFanatic]

How does it effect you? Did this registered runner take aid so you didn't get any? Did they get in your way for a photo op? Did they take post race refreshments that you didn't get???

I am so confused :confused3

Apparently, you have never been affected by anything anyone has ever said or done.

It's a matter of pride and accomplishment. It's insulting for someone to step onto the course and take a FINSHER'S REWARD but not put the effort into it. The rest of the runners worked hard and fought through - even when it was painful and difficult. To see someone else take the same reward without putting in the effort, as I have said now multiple times, is insulting.

[FireDancer]

All of the hypotheticals and what ifs would be taken out of the equation if races allowd the transfer of registration. They got their money, especially on races that closed. If a runner can't compete they should have a way of transferring the registration and updating the information with the runner who will be actually competing.

Lets say someone who is 65 registers for the race, pays, and then can't compete. As it is they can sell me their bib, I can run it, finish it, get the finisher's medal (which I earned), and collect the age group award (which I did not). If they allowed the 65 year old to transfer the registration to me I can do all of those things but the runner info would have been updated in the transfer process so I would be back running in my 30-34 age bracket.

As consumers we have a right of first sale on everything we buy under both copyright and trademark law. Extend that right to our properly purchased race registration while providing a mechanism to update the information and all of the problems in the OP are solved.

[ultramickeymouse]

I am not hiding and personally Robert I think it is sad that you continue to stir the pot. I guess when you seek attention it does not matter if it is positive or negative as long as you are getting it.

That said I will move on as nothing you have to say regarding rules of any kind holds weight with me.

Sorry WISH forumites for this post. But I stand on my own integrity in making it. Something I can do proudly and without reservation!!

Roger, I am well aware of who you are. Should have come up with a better user name :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

[MarathonFanatic]

I was showing this thread to a running friend of mine at work - here is their response:

If you jump on a course you are stealing because you did not meet the requirement of getting the medal. If everyone else pays for an item at a store and you just put it in your pocket you are hurting yourself but you are taking what everyone else had to pay for. Same in a race.

[runtime]

Hope more of you lurkers and name hiders come out and play.

This discussion seems to have died.

As for worrying about things going south in discussions, I think people are much bolder and will say anything if they can hide. Thus people who hide their names help make this discussions go south because they have no ramifications to their actions. My opinion.

Valid opinion. Can I ask if you think any of the content that I have posted has been malicious or brought the conversation south? At the risk of offending others, it reads to me as if I may be the only one here who isn't personally involved somehow (and thus have been above board the whole time).

If it will allow us to continue the debate, you can call me Jim. Again, I'm not sure how that is relevant to the content of my posts, but so be it.

Personally, I'm quieting down because I am seeing the personal side of this argument come out more and more. I was directed here and was hoping to participate in an ethical debate.

I'm not chastising, I understand that this happens in forums. It's just that that part of it doesn't really hold my interest, so I choose not to participate in it.

So, getting back on topic ...

It sounds like we agree that:
1) When bib transfers are not allowed, then it is wrong to do them.
2) That the above is a "breaking the rules".
3) That not competing on the entire course is "breaking the rules".

It seems there is still some disagreement on whether or not not completing the entire course has negative ramifications. With that in mind, I'm wondering if you would respond to my Post # 63 above.

[ultramickeymouse]

Apparently, you have never been affected by anything anyone has ever said or done.

It's a matter of pride and accomplishment. It's insulting for someone to step onto the course and take a FINSHER'S REWARD but not put the effort into it. The rest of the runners worked hard and fought through - even when it was painful and difficult. To see someone else take the same reward without putting in the effort, as I have said now multiple times, is insulting.

Insulting? Again you allow someone to effect you and your race. That is a personal decision.

You better get ready to be insulted a whole bunch next month at WDW. It will take you 30 days to build it up as there will be many who will not finish the full race. I think training for it should go hand in hand with your marathon training.

[MarathonFanatic]

All of the hypotheticals and what ifs would be taken out of the equation if races allowd the transfer of registration. They got their money, especially on races that closed. If a runner can't compete they should have a way of transferring the registration and updating the information with the runner who will be actually competing.

Lets say someone who is 65 registers for the race, pays, and then can't compete. As it is they can sell me their bib, I can run it, finish it, get the finisher's medal (which I earned), and collect the age group award (which I did not). If they allowed the 65 year old to transfer the registration to me I can do all of those things but the runner info would have been updated in the transfer process so I would be back running in my 30-34 age bracket.

As consumers we have a right of first sale on everything we buy under both copyright and trademark law. Extend that right to our properly purchased race registration while providing a mechanism to update the information and all of the problems in the OP are solved.

Agreed!!

[ultramickeymouse]

Should a child get an A in science, for only doing half the work, when the rest of the class had to do all of it?

That analogy doesn't really fit. Again a A on a test effects the other classmates as it effect their grades, their class standing, etc.....

The other scenario again only effects the individual.

[NCDisneyMom]

I was showing this thread to a running friend of mine at work - here is their response:

If you jump on a course you are stealing because you did not meet the requirement of getting the medal. If everyone else pays for an item at a store and you just put it in your pocket you are hurting yourself but you are taking what everyone else had to pay for. Same in a race.

Nice point. And, as someone pointed out a few pages ago (but I'm going to reiterate it since I liked it. ;) )...if the medal was a "participant's medal", then they would give them out with the packets, or to those on the sweeper bus (using Disney as an example here). But when it is a "finisher's medal", one must "finish" the whole race, not just part of it.

[runtime]

All of the hypotheticals and what ifs would be taken out of the equation if races allowd the transfer of registration. They got their money, especially on races that closed. If a runner can't compete they should have a way of transferring the registration and updating the information with the runner who will be actually competing.

Lets say someone who is 65 registers for the race, pays, and then can't compete. As it is they can sell me their bib, I can run it, finish it, get the finisher's medal (which I earned), and collect the age group award (which I did not). If they allowed the 65 year old to transfer the registration to me I can do all of those things but the runner info would have been updated in the transfer process so I would be back running in my 30-34 age bracket.

As consumers we have a right of first sale on everything we buy under both copyright and trademark law. Extend that right to our properly purchased race registration while providing a mechanism to update the information and all of the problems in the OP are solved.

I totally agree. However, I think the debate at hand is about whether or not it is okay when no such transfer mechanism exists (and in some cases is explicitly forbidden) by the race.

[ultramickeymouse]

All of the hypotheticals and what ifs would be taken out of the equation if races allowd the transfer of registration. They got their money, especially on races that closed. If a runner can't compete they should have a way of transferring the registration and updating the information with the runner who will be actually competing.

Lets say someone who is 65 registers for the race, pays, and then can't compete. As it is they can sell me their bib, I can run it, finish it, get the finisher's medal (which I earned), and collect the age group award (which I did not). If they allowed the 65 year old to transfer the registration to me I can do all of those things but the runner info would have been updated in the transfer process so I would be back running in my 30-34 age bracket.

As consumers we have a right of first sale on everything we buy under both copyright and trademark law. Extend that right to our properly purchased race registration while providing a mechanism to update the information and all of the problems in the OP are solved.

As mentioned before I don't allow transfers or others to run under others names. It is a RD's choice. We live in a supply and demand country. If you don't like Disney's policy, run in a race that allows transfers. Not being harsh but if you haven't RD'd a race, you have no idea all of the work and adding transfers is just not worth the extra efforts.

[MarathonFanatic]

Insulting? Again you allow someone to effect you and your race. That is a personal decision.

You better get ready to be insulted a whole bunch next month at WDW. It will take you 30 days to build it up as there will be many who will not finish the full race. I think training for it should go hand in hand with your marathon training.

Which of my posts makes you think that I'm running in WDW next month?

[runtime]

As mentioned before I don't allow transfers or others to run under others names. It is a RD's choice. We live in a supply and demand country. If you don't like Disney's policy, run in a race that allows transfers. Not being harsh but if you haven't RD'd a race, you have no idea all of the work and adding transfers is just not worth the extra efforts.

Agreed. It is the RD's choice to make the rules, it is the individual's choice to decide whether or not they want to register for the race based on those rules. And, it is a matter of opinion whether or not RDs should allow the option.

I'm not gonna have much luck getting a response to the thing we disagree on, am I (post #63)? ;)

If it's gonna be personal from this point forward, someone can just let me know and I'll bow out of the way. It really has been fun, though.

[MarathonFanatic]

As mentioned before I don't allow transfers or others to run under others names. It is a RD's choice. We live in a supply and demand country. If you don't like Disney's policy, run in a race that allows transfers. Not being harsh but if you haven't RD'd a race, you have no idea all of the work and adding transfers is just not worth the extra efforts.


I have!!! And it's not that hard. Especially for small races.

[ultramickeymouse]

I will be gone for a couple of hours and didn't want anyone to think they ran me off.

I don't post on companies work time taking wages for something I didn't earn while surfing the internet;)

[MarathonFanatic]

Agreed. It is the RD's choice to make the rules, it is the individual's choice to decide whether or not they want to register for the race based on those rules. And, it is a matter of opinion whether or not RDs should allow the option.

I'm not gonna have much luck getting a response to the thing we disagree on, am I (post #63)? ;)

If it's gonna be personal from this point forward, someone can just let me know and I'll bow out of the way. It really has been fun, though.

I think it's been a blast!

Not really personal at this point - but my argument (not with you) is the effects of the jumping the course on other runners.

[MarathonFanatic]

I don't post on companies work time taking wages for something I didn't earn while surfing the internet;)

Yeah - me neither - I've been off work for a while now - just waiting for my ride.

[zakismom]

I must admit that I have just laughed so hard that I have nearly peed. The joke being that Robert is somehow trying to pretend to be ethical is just a bit more then I can handle without snorting and howling with laughter.

Robert you can sit here and lie trough your teeth all that you want but we all know that you tried to sell your 5k bibs for Disneyland and only because of your behavior did that deal 'go south.' We also are fully aware of your views of getting a medal no matter what way you manage cut the course to get it. The fact is that it is pathetic that you are trying to get attention what ever way that you can. You have backstepped over yourself so many times in this thread that it is humorous just waiting to see what you will say next. Yes, we all have 30 days or so to wait and see what antics you will pull to get to the finish line at WDW. I'm sure the ASI cameras will capture that moment just like the moments at DL and RFTT.

WISH is a community of people that are working to meet goals, goals they have set for themselves and as a group, you are really not setting any type of example as a RD or a runner/walker.

[CaliBanana]

I actually have a question for Robert.

Robert, when you pickup these finisher medals for races whose distances you have not completed. Do you tell people you ran those races? Or do you hold them up as a "I collect medals" with the same attitude that some people collect stamps or Disneyana?

[MarathonFanatic]

I actually have a question for Roger.

Roger. When you pickup these finisher medals for races whose distances you have not completed. Do you tell people you ran those races? Or do you hold them up as a "I collect medals" with the same attitude that some people collect stamps or Disneyana?

That would actually be a question for Robert, not Roger.

[Steffwalks]

Calibanana (cute name)

I think you meant the question for Robert.

Robert needed to know who you guys were so that he could pull the "I am the only RD here."card. :rotfl:

Welcome to Roger, Cali, Runtime and MarathonFanatic.

[CaliBanana]

Calibanana (cute name)

I think you meant the question for Robert.

Robert needed to know who you guys were so that he could pull the "I am the only RD here and so..."card. :rotfl:

Welcome to Roger, Cali, Runtime and MarathonFanatic.


Thank you! (and thanks for the catch, DOH!)

Anyone else wondering if he ever actually completed an ultramarathon?

[StitchAttack]

I actually wish that more races offered bib transfers. If they did, a lot of the issues about running under someone else's bib would go away.

With the amount of money it costs to enter races these days (hundreds of dollars sometimes) and how fast they fill up, it is sort of ridiculous that you can't transfer your bib legitimately in most races. Almost everything else in the world can be transferred. You can transfer (aka give them away, or sell them) tickets to a concert or a sporting event if you can't use them. A bib if like your ticket to the race. The fact that your bib is tied to your name/age/sex, is more of a technical hurdle that needs to be overcome in transferring the bib, than a reason to not allow transfers.

I believe it is because there is no financial incentive for race directors to allow bib transfers, that it isn't done more often. Taking Disney, for example. They have already received your money for the race months ahead of time. Whether you run or not, they make the same amount of money from the race. In fact, if you don't run the race, they actually expend fewer resources on you and it saves them money. Most race directors count on a certain number of no-shows in races (for marathons it can be as high as 10% or more) and buy their supplies accordingly.

So while I agree that running under someone else's bib is "technically" against the rules, I don't have a problem with it since there is no other alternative.

Sure there is the downside of the results being skewed, but that is pretty minor in my opinion. I, for one, care much more about my personal time and racing against myself than my placement among my fellow competitors. Also most of your overall placement and age group placement has to do with what race you run. For example, this thanksgiving I finished in the top 5% in a large 5K turkey trot that was run for charity. That wasn't because I ran a great race, it was because this race had lots of people walking, or pushing strollers or running with their dogs or just out to have a fun time, rather than race super fast. I could easily go out next week and run a faster time in a small local race and not even break the top 30%. My overall placement in a race, really says more about what type of crowd runs a given race, than it does about me.

[runtime]

I think it's been a blast!

Not really personal at this point - but my argument (not with you) is the effects of the jumping the course on other runners.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say in Post 63, but so far it has been largely ignored.

Since ultramickeymouse is the only one seemingly defending that side of the argument, I am still hoping to get a reply from him.

Will check back later.

[MarathonFanatic]

I think it is silly to think that there are not negative ramifications of not competing on the entire course. At the very least, it is a moral and contractual failure. Both of these speak to the integrity of the sport and thus have HUGE impact on its participants, RDs, sponsors, etc.

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

[CaliBanana]

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

As do I.

Athletics is about competition. If your best is cheating your way to a finishers medal then you're the quintessential example of a morally bankrupt individual. You didn't pay for a finishers medal you EARN that. What you paid for was the opportunity to try for that medal. You want to start offering "thanks for inhaling oxygen in the general vicinity of our race course" medals that is your prerogative. But any person who accepts a medal without completing an entire course is a cheater. Plain and simple.

[MarathonFanatic]

As do I.

Athletics is about competition. If your best is cheating your way to a finishers medal then you're the quintessential example of a morally bankrupt individual. You didn't pay for a finishers medal you EARN that. What you paid for was the opportunity to try for that medal. You want to start offering "thanks for inhaling oxygen in the general vicinity of our race course" medals that is your prerogative. But any person who accepts a medal without completing an entire course is a cheater. Plain and simple.

Well said. May as well just give it with the participant shirt at packet pick-up

[runtime]

Just want to say that I really agree with this statement.

Thanks.

Once the integrity of the sport disappears, then the sport itself disappears. Sponsors don't want to be associated with it. People don't want to be associated with it. They don't want their kids involved in it, etc.

Ultramickeymouse may be correct in that it doesn't hurt anybody's finisher statistics for that race and on that day, but it is a short-sighted argument. It ultimately affects the sport as whole, which in turn affects all involved parties (again, sponsors, RDs, runners, etc.). I would really like to hear his thoughts on this bit.

[MarathonFanatic]

Thanks.

Once the integrity of the sport disappears, then the sport itself disappears. Sponsors don't want to be associated with it. People don't want to be associated with it. They don't want their kids involved in it, etc.

Ultramickeymouse may be correct in that it doesn't hurt anybody's finisher statistics for that race and on that day, but it is a short-sighted argument. It ultimately affects the sport as whole, which in turn affects all involved parties (again, sponsors, RDs, runners, etc.). I would really like to hear his thoughts on this bit.

Thanks - that's pretty much the point that I was trying to convey.

[bunnyfoo]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

[runtime]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

If I understand ultramickeymouse's argument so far, I think he would say it would be okay if they didn't wear chips because then they wouldn't affect results (i.e. not place in an age group). Well, I agree that not wearing a chip would mean that the finishing order isn't altered, it still implies that the finishing order is the only thing that can be negatively impacted. No true at all in my opinion, but you all already know that. (blush)

[MarathonFanatic]

If I understand ultramickeymouse's argument so far, I think he would say it would be okay if they didn't wear chips because then they wouldn't affect results (i.e. not place in an age group). Well, I agree that not wearing a chip would mean that the finishing order isn't altered, it still implies that the finishing order is the only thing that can be negatively impacted. No true at all in my opinion, but you all already know that. (blush)

But it does present the issue that you may use extra effort in order to attempt to pass said people therefore affecting your race b/c you are using extra effort that you would otherwise not need to use.

[cewait]

I think most other runners would GREATLY disagree with this last statement.

A Finisher's Medal is for those that FINISH the race - the WHOLE race. Otherwise it would be given at packet pick-up and called an Entrant's Medal. Those that ENTER, get a shirt. Those that FINISH, get a medal.

I actually long for the days when you enter you get a bib and when you finish you get a shirt.

[ultramickeymouse]

Yes, we all have 30 days or so to wait and see what antics you will pull to get to the finish line at WDW. I'm sure the ASI cameras will capture that moment just like the moments at DL and RFTT.

WISH is a community of people that are working to meet goals, goals they have set for themselves and as a group, you are really not setting any type of example as a RD or a runner/walker.

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements :confused3 .

I finished both races and have proof from people like Lily and Jeanne who saw me out there. If you have something else else other than you not liking me, please bring it forward!

I have been here on WISH a lot longer than you and know they are a good group working on a common goal. Dodn't preach to me about this forum!

[ultramickeymouse]

I actually have a question for Robert.

Robert, when you pickup these finisher medals for races whose distances you have not completed. Do you tell people you ran those races? Or do you hold them up as a "I collect medals" with the same attitude that some people collect stamps or Disneyana?

What race are you talking about? Can you give me an example?

[MarathonFanatic]

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements :confused3 .


Yes - YOU started and finished... but someone else didn't.

[hungrygreenhippo]

I actually wish that more races offered bib transfers. If they did, a lot of the issues about running under someone else's bib would go away.

With the amount of money it costs to enter races these days (hundreds of dollars sometimes) and how fast they fill up, it is sort of ridiculous that you can't transfer your bib legitimately in most races. Almost everything else in the world can be transferred. You can transfer (aka give them away, or sell them) tickets to a concert or a sporting event if you can't use them. A bib if like your ticket to the race. The fact that your bib is tied to your name/age/sex, is more of a technical hurdle that needs to be overcome in transferring the bib, than a reason to not allow transfers.

I believe it is because there is no financial incentive for race directors to allow bib transfers, that it isn't done more often. Taking Disney, for example. They have already received your money for the race months ahead of time. Whether you run or not, they make the same amount of money from the race. In fact, if you don't run the race, they actually expend fewer resources on you and it saves them money. Most race directors count on a certain number of no-shows in races (for marathons it can be as high as 10% or more) and buy their supplies accordingly.
So while I agree that running under someone else's bib is "technically" against the rules, I don't have a problem with it since there is no other alternative.

Sure there is the downside of the results being skewed, but that is pretty minor in my opinion. I, for one, care much more about my personal time and racing against myself than my placement among my fellow competitors. Also most of your overall placement and age group placement has to do with what race you run. For example, this thanksgiving I finished in the top 5% in a large 5K turkey trot that was run for charity. That wasn't because I ran a great race, it was because this race had lots of people walking, or pushing strollers or running with their dogs or just out to have a fun time, rather than race super fast. I could easily go out next week and run a faster time in a small local race and not even break the top 30%. My overall placement in a race, really says more about what type of crowd runs a given race, than it does about me.

This has been an interesting thread. I too think that a fininshers medal should only be for those who legitimately finish the entire distance of the race within the time limits/rules of the race. Obviously there are those out there who don't though (remember the guy from The Biggest Loser... didn't he keep the medal even though he skipped out on like 3 miles?). While I may not morally agree with that viewpoint, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For example, to play devil's advocate, someone may view that medal as a record of their accomplishment to simply get out and attempt to complete a marathon.

As for the transfer of bibs, luckily I've never been in the situation yet where I've paid registration for a race I couldn't participate in. However, personally I would not try to sell my bib to someone else because I'd be too worried about the ramifications of getting caught. For example, I think RNR races will ban anyone caught buying or selling a bib for 3 years or something like that. I know the chances of anyone actually noticing it are slim, but still I wouldn't risk it. When you sign up for a race, it's your personal responsibility to know the rules and agree to abide by them.

I would love to see more races offer the option to transfer bibs. But I disagree that almost everything else in the world can be transferred. I haven't quite decided if this analogy applies or not, but I'm going to post it anyway for discussion... The obvious thing that comes to my mind is park tickets. Even though I paid for a 7-day park hopper and only used 6 days, I can't do whatever I want with that 7th day (give it away, sell it, etc.) When I bought the 7-day park hopper, I knew that it couldn't be transfered and I agreed to Disney's terms. As mentioned above, most races probably expect a certain percentage of no-shows and account for it accordingly when setting registration limits. This is no different than what airlines and hotels do.

[MarathonFanatic]

So you are saying that I cheated at DL 1/2 and RFTT. Did you make this up or do you have witnesses that make you say these false statements :confused3 .


Yes - YOU started and finished... but someone else didn't. That person only crossed one line - the finish line.

[MarathonFanatic]

I actually long for the days when you enter you get a bib and when you finish you get a shirt.

A recent race I ran did finisher's tech shirts - basic t's for entering.

[ultramickeymouse]

I ran a 1/2 back in May and watched two women cut in front of me. It was on an out and back portion of course. Maybe it was their first race and they didn't consider that cheating, they were tired - who knows, but sure did tick me off. I'm sure there were other racers around me who were annoyed too. What if those two women had won in their age group - At that point, I don't think you can say their actions don't affect other participants.

If they weren't wearing a timing chip, they would effect results or Age Division Awards. If they did than that is totally wrong!

[runtime]

Robert -- I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you are the only one taking the opposite side of the argument, so it may be coming across that way.

Any chance I could get your opinions on posts 63 and 107?

[cewait]

If someone legitimately finished a race and sold their medal, then that's fine. But for ANYONE to think that simply paying an entry fee justifies accepting a medal next to all the true finishers is absolutely absurd!!! No medal should be accepted at a finish line that is not 100% earned. By doing this, you are insulting all of those individuals that endured the blood, sweat and tears despite hardships and injuries to have that medal placed around their neck or in their hand.

By using your logic, I could have bagged a distance run earlier this year due to a torn hamstring, but still taken the finisher's medal. Just the thought of this is nauseating.

And yet Disney has a long history of giving medals to non-finishers. I know of times when they swept runners at mile 13 and deposited them at the finish, handing out finisher medals as they got off the bus (2006). At the half the the back of the pack was swept at mile 10 and dropped at mile 12 to 'finish' the race (2004).

I personally agree with the arguement that a medal should not be accepted if you did not do the work....only pointing out that this particular race does not always honor the real finishers. Just like an 'I DID IT' shirt shoulf become a shop towel if you did not get around the loop on race day.

[ultramickeymouse]

Robert -- I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you, but you are the only one taking the opposite side of the argument, so it may be coming across that way.

Any chance I could get your opinions on posts 63 and 107?

This thread has gotten so off topic. Did anyone read post #1?

I am not afraid of standing on my on with my name out there. Unlike cowardly new users :)

[cewait]

If Disney's RD followed the same logic, they would pass out medals on the sweeper bus. Accepting a medal for going the full distance when you've done only the last x miles is a slap in the face to the person who completed only the first x miles before getting swept. Both individuals registered and paid, both completed x miles, but only one gave it their best effort to go the full distance while the other gets the bling.

And they have on numerous occations

[MarathonFanatic]

This thread has gotten so off topic. Did anyone read post #1?

I am not afraid of standing on my on with my name out there. Unlike cowardly new users :)

He said you can call him Jim - and if you MUST have a name, you can call me Sam.

[runtime]

While I may not morally agree with that viewpoint, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For example, to play devil's advocate, someone may view that medal as a record of their accomplishment to simply get out and attempt to complete a marathon.

If the race has declared it a "finisher's medal" and has specified that it is given to "finishers", then do you think the individual can decide that it is instead for their "attempt to complete a marathon". If so, someone else could just as easily decide it was for their attempt to think about completing a marathon, no?

[MarathonFanatic]

And yet Disney has a long history of giving medals to non-finishers. I know of times when they swept runners at mile 13 and deposited them at the finish, handing out finisher medals as they got off the bus (2006). At the half the the back of the pack was swept at mile 10 and dropped at mile 12 to 'finish' the race (2004).

I personally agree with the arguement that a medal should not be accepted if you did not do the work....only pointing out that this particular race does not always honor the real finishers. Just like an 'I DID IT' shirt shoulf become a shop towel if you did not get around the loop on race day.

Was not aware that they did that - though I don't agree with it. And I also agree about the "I DID IT" shirts.

[ultramickeymouse]

I see that nobody cares that a person that didn't run the race and gets listed in the finisher results. I see that most people don't care that they get credit for something they didn't do. I see most people don't care about effecting many others who did do the race and get dropped down in the overall, sex, and age results. I see most people don't care that runners run a race that they didn't pay for themselves to race management.

The most important thing is is someone gets a medal that didn't finish the race.

This is a synopsis of this thread :thumbsup2

[runtime]

This thread has gotten so off topic. Did anyone read post #1?

I am not afraid of standing on my on with my name out there. Unlike cowardly new users :)

If you are referring to me, I would like to know what user status has to do with the content of my argument. If you are unable to answer the questions I have put forth, then just say so. There is no need to try to undermine me. I've been nothing but polite.

[MarathonFanatic]

Oh - and just to reference the post about the BL guy that was bussed a few miles - I don't think that he should have accepted that medal either. That entire event with him made a lot of people look down on the sport.

[ultramickeymouse]

He said you can call him Jim - and if you MUST have a name, you can call me Sam.

Hi Steph!

[runtime]

And yet Disney has a long history of giving medals to non-finishers. I know of times when they swept runners at mile 13 and deposited them at the finish, handing out finisher medals as they got off the bus (2006). At the half the the back of the pack was swept at mile 10 and dropped at mile 12 to 'finish' the race (2004).

I personally agree with the arguement that a medal should not be accepted if you did not do the work....only pointing out that this particular race does not always honor the real finishers. Just like an 'I DID IT' shirt shoulf become a shop towel if you did not get around the loop on race day.

I didn't know that about the medals to non-finishers either. That's a very big shame. Seems they are breaking their own rules a bit.

[MarathonFanatic]

If you drop down in status in an age group, etc that bumps you out of an award, yes, it's an issue. If you aren't able to place anyway, it doesn't matter.

If awards go 3 deep, and I'm going to come in 500th - if it's 500 or 501 doesn't matter.

Someone getting a medal for not completing the distance at all, takes away from the significance of the medal - it says that "you can get this no matter if you do the work or not."

I am PROUD of every one of my FINISHER's medals - I have EARNED the right to hang each one of them. Each one of them has a special place in my heart and in my life. Each one signifies the sacrifice, dedication, training, pain, sweat, tears and achievement that goes into COMPLETING THE DISTANCE. For someone to take one without earning it takes away from that.

When I show someone my FINISHER's medal, it is to say "I DID THE WORK!"

[MarathonFanatic]

Hi Steph!


Guess again...

[ultramickeymouse]

If you drop down in status in an age group, etc that bumps you out of an award, yes, it's an issue. If you aren't able to place anyway, it doesn't matter.

If awards go 3 deep, and I'm going to come in 500th - if it's 500 or 501 doesn't matter.

Someone getting a medal for not completing the distance at all, takes away from the significance of the medal - it says that "you can get this no matter if you do the work or not."

I am PROUD of every one of my FINISHER's medals - I have EARNED the right to hang each one of them. Each one of them has a special place in my heart and in my life. Each one signifies the sacrifice, dedication, training, pain, sweat, tears and achievement that goes into COMPLETING THE DISTANCE. For someone to take one without earning it takes away from that.

When I show someone my FINISHER's medal, it is to say "I DID THE WORK!"
Say that a person who jumped a course, never wore the medal and never claimed to have finished the race?

Having your name in the results clearly means you wanted yourself to be counted as a finisher.

[MarathonFanatic]

Say that a person who jumped a course, never wore the medal and never claimed to have finished the race?

Having your name in the results clearly means you wanted yourself to be counted as a finisher.

You are missing the point...

It's not about what's listed in the results. No one looks at that.

[ultramickeymouse]

Guess again...

At least one of you is. I know the tone from some past posts. I won't worry about which ones.

I am having fun guessing. I am sure you are sitting back smiling hiding behind your keyboard :lmao:

[runtime]

If you are referring to me, I would like to know what user status has to do with the content of my argument. If you are unable to answer the questions I have put forth, then just say so. There is no need to try to undermine me. I've been nothing but polite.

I guess the above will be my third and last unanswered question. I enjoyed the actual debate while it lasted.

I wish you all the best of luck working out whatever hurt feelings exist.

Happy Wednesday, all.

[NCDisneyMom]

Say that a person who jumped a course, never wore the medal and never claimed to have finished the race?

Having your name in the results clearly means you wanted yourself to be counted as a finisher.

But from a moral and ethical standpoint (not to mention the RULES), if a person did not legitimately cross the finish line after running the entire race, they should not even accept the medal (IMO).

I know it's been said that a person has "earned' their medal by paying to be in the race. But, if one person is allowed to "jump in" just to get their medal, who is to say that someone couldn't finish the race early, go back out, jump back in again, and get another medal (for someone back home, to sell on ebay, whatever)? I realize that this is really stretching it, but where does it stop? If that were to happen, then yes, it DOES affect people in the back of the pack who may not get a medal because they have run out. Do race officials need to somehow log each runners bib number as they collect their medal?

[ultramickeymouse]

You are missing the point...

It's not about what's listed in the results. No one looks at that.

So results in races don't matter. Ask the race director of any race and tell them that results don't matter. Why both have chip timing :confused3 It is to get accurate results for runners.

[ultramickeymouse]

I guess the above will be my third and last unanswered question. I enjoyed the actual debate while it lasted.

I wish you all the best of luck working out whatever hurt feelings exist.

Happy Wednesday, all.

Was your question related to the topic in post #1?

If not, you have your answer. FYI, I didn't even read your post.

[MarathonFanatic]

So results in races don't matter. Ask the race director of any race and tell them that results don't matter. Why both have chip timing :confused3 It is to get accurate results for runners.

The finishing time matters to that particular runner - but no one else is going to go look it up and really care. You don't show off the results page - you show off your medal. If someone has a medal they didn't earn, they can show off the same thing without putting in the effort.

[NCDisneyMom]

Was your question related to the topic in post #1?

If not, you have your answer. FYI, I didn't even read your post.

Well, that was kind of rude, don't you think? He/she tried to have a conversation with you, asked you three times to answer a question he/she asked, and then you come right out and say that you didn't even read it? Nice...

[CaliBanana]

Was your question related to the topic in post #1?

If not, you have your answer. FYI, I didn't even read your post.

You clearly don't read race rules either so I'm not entirely surprised.

[ultramickeymouse]

The finishing time matters to that particular runner - but no one else is going to go look it up and really care. You don't show off the results page - you show off your medal. If someone has a medal they didn't earn, they can show off the same thing without putting in the effort.

So you say it matters if they CAN wear the medal. What if they DON'T wear it? Did you see someone wear it?

[gsu1988]

I have tried to stay out of this but just couldn't. I think the whole title of the thread "Cheating: running under another's bib and effecting the results??" was meant to stir up a situation where obviously bad feelings still prevail.

Is it cheating to run under another's bib? - NO - Is it the right thing to do? - No (if is not allowed by that particular RD). If I run under another person's bib it is no benefit to me so how am I cheating. My mane is not listed in the standings and I can not win any awards. Could I affect others in the standings - yes and thay is why it should not be done, but is it CHEATING?

As far as the other topic that has been raised through this discussion goes, it makes me sick to my stomach for someone to take credit for doing something that they did not do. To me it belittles the efforts of everyone who completed the entire distance step for step, pain for pain, blister for blister.

I am not taking anyone's side in this issue. This is just my opinion on the topic.

[ultramickeymouse]

You clearly don't read race rules either so I'm not entirely surprised.

Since you know the race rules better than I, can you please supply them in your reply so I can read them.

Thanks!

[runtime]

Was your question related to the topic in post #1?

If not, you have your answer. FYI, I didn't even read your post.

You seem fine "discussing" it with others on the thread. What is it about my questions you don't like?

Additionally, my questions are regarding trying to get clarifications on your statements. Since you started this thread, I would think you would welcome explaining discrepancies in your argument to better benefit the overall conversation.

It is becoming more and more obvious that this thread was not started to have an intelligent intellectual debate. That is unfortunate as it seems that there are some very informed people here that would like to do just that.

[ultramickeymouse]

As far as the other topic that has been raised through this discussion goes, it makes me sick to my stomach for someone to take credit for doing something that they did not do. To me it belittles the efforts of everyone who completed the entire distance step for step, pain for pain, blister for blister.

I am not taking anyone's side in this issue. This is just my opinion on the topic.
By not wearing the chip and not getting listed, obviusly a person would be intentionally not claiming to finish the race. If they didn't wear the medal and tell anyone that they finished, that would be another sign that they weren't taking credit for something they didn't do.

[CaliBanana]

So you say it matters if they CAN wear the medal. What if they DON'T wear it? Did you see someone wear it?

Why are you here. I mean seriously. WHY are you here?

You aren't here to push yourself. You're not hear to encourage others. WHY are you here? A piece of metal on a string, the mere possession of it, really means that much to you? Because once you remove the actual achievement in pursuit of that medal all you have is a piece of metal on a string. Big freaking deal. And yet it clearly must be a HUGE deal to you because you're willing to go against the rules, the intent and THE SPIRIT of the event for a shiny piece of metal on a string.

[ultramickeymouse]

That is unfortunate as it seems that there are some very informed people here that would like to do just that.

Who might that be? You :lmao:

[SAHDad]

Disclaimer #1 - I have a medal (2 actually) from a race I did not finish. The Chicago 2007 Deathmarch (aka the 2007 marathon, the one that got cancelled mid-race) pretty much gave them out to everyone. I won't wear them, nor do I claim them - my kids play with them, and someday I plan on donating them or something. The shirt for the race has never been worn by me, and once I find it, it is getting donated. I won't wear it, since I did not earn it.

My concern with something like this (aside from the not-insignifiant issues of age group awards, insurance, etc) is that I could give my bib to someone younger and faster than me, and thus make it more likely that I could "earn" a slot into Boston. Likewise, if there is some octagenarian that really wants into Boston, I could run a marathon with their bib, and gain them entry.

FWIW - I think there needs to be a system to allow for an exchange of numbers, though perhaps with a hefty penalty, but anyone caught running under another number (or wearing two chips/D-tags) should get at least the Rosie Ruiz treatment.

[cewait]

-All-

We seem to ave left the course here.

Why not the the back and forth debate to PM and spare some bandwidth. The point of the orginal question is now so far into the weeds that this thread has become drivel and pointless and almost to the point of being personal (in a negative way).

[runtime]

Who might that be? You :lmao:

Well, you mentioned you were an RD. As such, I was looking forward to your input on my questions regarding the integrity of the sport.

Instead, I am being ridiculed for trying to engage you and my argument is being undermined because you want to know my name.

Didn't you post something to me several pages back about WISH and courtesy? I, for one, am not seeing you represent that.

[NCDisneyMom]

Who might that be? You :lmao:

And once again...a rude remark from you. Why must you be that way?

[gsu1988]

Still you miss the point. It is not about showing up in the results or wearing the medal. It is about crossing the finish line after earning the right to cross that line by covering the entire distance. Not merely jumping in at the end giving the appearence that the entire distance was covered. If someone wants to accompany a participant in the race or give support to a struggling friend why not step aside before the finish unless it is to give the appearence that the entire route was covered. Even wearing someone elses bib the right to cross the line was earned if the entire distance was covered.

[ultramickeymouse]

Well, you mentioned you were an RD. As such, I was looking forward to your input on my questions regarding the integrity of the sport.

Instead, I am being ridiculed for trying to engage you and my argument is being undermined because you want to know my name.

Didn't you post something to me several pages back about WISH and courtesy? I, for one, am not seeing you represent that.

I will discuss your post when I know who I am talking to. Until than, I don't give time of day to someone hiding behind a made up user name.

[runtime]

I will discuss your post when I know who I am talking to. Until than, I don't give time of day to someone hiding behind a made up user name.

It's ironic, but the attitude you have taken with me on this thread is one of the very reasons I don't give my name on boards. You (and others) seem to be taking things personally. Given that, and given that I don't know you, what you're about, or how kind or not you are to strangers, I won't be sharing my name or any more personally identifiable information than is necessary to join a discussion board.

Again, you can call me Jim. For all you know, I'm telling the truth. For all I know, your name is not Robert (more to the point, I don't care -- given the purposes here, I care about the content of your argument).

Given that, do you think we'll be getting back to the debate or not? If not and you are done debating the topic with me, please just do me the favor of letting me know, so that I can go on to other things. No big deal.

Again, I have been nothing but polite to you. I think it is reasonable to expect the same.

[goofyinohio]

I feel really bad for any new WISHers who are coming in here today!

If you read down through the other threads this is not what we are about!!!!

[ultramickeymouse]

Still you miss the point. It is not about showing up in the results or wearing the medal. It is about crossing the finish line after earning the right to cross that line by covering the entire distance. Not merely jumping in at the end giving the appearence that the entire distance was covered. If someone wants to accompany a participant in the race or give support to a struggling friend why not step aside before the finish unless it is to give the appearence that the entire route was covered. Even wearing someone elses bib the right to cross the line was earned if the entire distance was covered.

You are worried about "appearance"? What does that mean in the scope of things. Your option would not be easy to do.

A bandit runner has no rights to cross the finish line because they didn't bother to register, pay the fees, and sign the waiver. They are thus entitled to nothing(from RD'd) point of view.

Personally I don't care as I know it happens as with people cutting the course. Has always happend, always will happen. People are getting upset that they might know someone who did. Not that it happens with many others.

[ultramickeymouse]

It's ironic, but the attitude you have taken with me on this thread is one of the very reasons I don't give my name on boards. You (and others) seem to be taking things personally. Given that, and given that I don't know you, what you're about, or how kind or not you are to strangers, I won't be sharing my name or any more personally identifiable information than is necessary to join a discussion board.

Again, you can call me Jim. For all you know, I'm telling the truth. For all I know, your name is not Robert (more to the point, I don't care -- given the purposes here, I care about the content of your argument).

Given that, do you think we'll l we be getting back to my questions or not? If not and you are done debating the topic with me, please just do me the favor of letting me know, so that I can go on to other things. No big deal.

Again, I have been nothing but polite to you. I think it is reasonable to expect the same.

I am Robert as everyone on WISH can attest to for the 3 years I have been posting here.

You just joined today to help fuel the fire off the topic I created. I know there are Robert "haters" out there and would love a chance to come after me. Why are you so set on hiding?

[runtime]

I am Robert as everyone on WISH can attest to for the 3 years I have been posting here.

You just joined today to help fuel the fire off the topic I created. I know there are Robert "haters" out there and would love a chance to come after me. Why are you so set on hiding?

I don't hate anybody. If you knew me, you would know that. I came here for a discussion/debate. Thanks again for the pieces of that you contributed to.

Have a good day.

[ultramickeymouse]

I feel really bad for any new WISHers who are coming in here today!

If you read down through the other threads this is not what we are about!!!!

I apologize for getting this thread going. I figured out that some people hiding in the weeds would change it to a witch hunt(which they did).

I was asked to help find someone sell their bib. Most people don't think about the problems it can cause. That's why I brought it up.

If you do use someone elses bib, PLEASE don't wear the chip!

[CaliBanana]

Disclaimer #1 - I have a medal (2 actually) from a race I did not finish. The Chicago 2007 Deathmarch (aka the 2007 marathon, the one that got cancelled mid-race) pretty much gave them out to everyone. I won't wear them, nor do I claim them - my kids play with them, and someday I plan on donating them or something. The shirt for the race has never been worn by me, and once I find it, it is getting donated. I won't wear it, since I did not earn it.

My concern with something like this (aside from the not-insignifiant issues of age group awards, insurance, etc) is that I could give my bib to someone younger and faster than me, and thus make it more likely that I could "earn" a slot into Boston. Likewise, if there is some octagenarian that really wants into Boston, I could run a marathon with their bib, and gain them entry.

FWIW - I think there needs to be a system to allow for an exchange of numbers, though perhaps with a hefty penalty, but anyone caught running under another number (or wearing two chips/D-tags) should get at least the Rosie Ruiz treatment.


I think your argument here is a valid one and one of the reasons I get so frustrated that bibs cannot be traded in. I think with the exception of the Rosie Ruizes of the world 99.9% of runners would be thrilled to pay a trade in fee, or even pay for an entirely new race registration to legitimately run a race.

[dsnyfan21]

Please remember everyone... try not to get personal. Newbies hopefully will find this to be an open group of people with goals to do races at Disney and other places. A place to get support and help and a lift if needed. Just wanted to repost from what OhMom posted before.

From the Forum Guidelines:
4. NO FIGHTING/SARCASM: While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction

6. NO PERSONAL MESSAGES: The types of posts that we like to see on the DIS are those that everyone can participate in and benefit from. When a post is intended for an individual, it creates a problem and can be very awkward for both the person you're publicly contacting as well as others. Did you know that you can easily get in touch with almost anyone via the DIS Private Message system? Simply click on the name of the person and you should see a link for sending them a private message and/or email. If you come across a situation where the person has blocked these options, sorry you still can't use the boards to get in touch.


-Freckles

[ultramickeymouse]

I don't hate anybody. If you knew me, you would know that. I came here for a discussion/debate. Thanks again for the pieces of that you contributed to.

Have a good day.

I guess I will never know you and you will never get an answer to your questions. I have a feeling we won't see you on WISH for a long time again :)

[CaliBanana]

I feel really bad for any new WISHers who are coming in here today!

If you read down through the other threads this is not what we are about!!!!

G, :hug: I have been lurking on these boards for over a year. I just never got mad enough to post until today. W.I.S.H. is actually a great place with very positive people and I always learn something or get a warm fuzzy when I stop by.

[ultramickeymouse]

I think your argument here is a valid one and one of the reasons I get so frustrated that bibs cannot be traded in. I think with the exception of the Rosie Ruizes of the world 99.9% of runners would be thrilled to pay the full a fee, or even pay for an entirely new race registration to legitimately run a race.

It would be nice but if you charged, people would want a shirt in their size which means work. When would you stop allowing transfers? The last month? The marathon is still open so that wouldn't work. I just don't think Disney would make enough money to offset the work.

[ultramickeymouse]

G, :hug: I have been lurking on these boards for over a year. I just never got mad enough to post until today. W.I.S.H. is actually a great place with very positive people and I always learn something or get a warm fuzzy when I stop by.

Did you find a copy of the rules you were quoting? I am curious to see them. I have seen where it says no transfers and Active.com's registration waiver stating that all runners must sign a waiver.

[CaliBanana]

It would be nice but if you charged, people would want a shirt in their size which means work. When would you stop allowing transfers? The last month? The marathon is still open so that wouldn't work. I just don't think Disney would make enough money to offset the work.

You're purposely making this difficult, but again I'm not surprised.

I signed up for a large local race recently 18K participate. The website said you had to register by a certain date to have your name printed on your bib. If you didn't tough luck. The same could be done for bibs. Disneyland had a customer service table at the expo this year. Dozens of people were in line asking if they could transfer bibs. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to show up with a bib that is not being used and a new waiver form for a new runner. A sharpie would take care of any bib name issues and liability would be preserved.

This is not homeland security for crying out loud. It's not like they need my money 6 months in advance so they can do a health screening. You're willing to steal medals. Why shouldn't the people with actual heart be able to compete for theirs?

[ohMom]

move on folks....nothing to see here..............

WISH is a community to support and encourage, that is not what is happening here....

done