$10 a point? What an insult!

[nuthut]

Seems to be a lot of people trying to rent. Maybe if they were willing to spend more than $10 a point they could find someone to rent to them. Why would any member give their points away for $10 each? $80 for a studio? Insane, when Disney charges $254 plus tax. I wonder if I can get someone to clean my room for $170 a day?

[Bigcat]

Damn Straight!!!

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[Bumpy]

I agree!

[Joeblack]

I agree too, but $10 is what the market is paying right now. If you think about it, it covers more or less your annual cost in dollars. I would not want to rent out my points because TO ME they are worth a lot more. Unfortunately you might find it difficult at the moment to get a better price. Maybe if you try eBay you might get somebody to pay up to $17 like it was recently posted in a thread, but I am not a big fan of Ebay.

[Jimmac]

I purshased my points in DVC with one thing in mind- to enjoy our vacations using every one of those precious points for our family's enjoyment. Rent my points, NEVER! :)

[jennybobenny]

Actually Joe, nuthut and his son are our resident ebay experts. They've sold so many DVC vacations that Member Services considers them honorary Guides. (j/k) ;) ;)

Seriously though - nuthut it's no surprise that you'd like to see the rental price per point go higher as it would directly impact your sales and profit.

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[Peterd]

Nuthut, I agree with you. Look at the rent trade board. How many points for rent vs. LOOKING for points do you see.

On the first page:
15 requests LOOKING for points and resv.

3 statements or questions (faq) regarding renting,

2 "points for rent" by same person, who has since sold his points, and

1 other 2 day resv. that will be lost in one week.

We went to another site to get some more points for an upcoming family reunion, and they're all gone.

Sounds like Demand high, supply low.

Have to hope I get lucky and my waitlist for add-on at the BW comes through.

[LauraS]

The fact of the matter is that as the news that DVCers are renting out points for 10 bucks a night keeps growing, that number will go up. Supply will be far lower than demand. It's already happening. Everyone really should bump up that number to $15 or so per point minimum. I'm not by any means suggesting that people should buy into the DVC to make a profit, however, 10 bucks a point vs. what Disney gets is a bit ridiculous. I hate the idea that there are folks out there buying 2,000 pt contracts purely for profit. I'm talking about the person who can't make it one year, or they have a bunch of points left over and need to get rid of them. Or, the person who is having a rough time financially and wants to rent their points for a year or so instead of selling their contract. We bought into DVC for ourselves and to take family and friends, but renting out for 10 bucks a night is really giving someone else a steal of a deal. That's great if you're only out to cover your dues, but you need to think of your original investment, lost interest...blah blah. You get the drift....it should be at least $15 a point easy.

Laura

[pluto109]

never rented never will

[nuthut]

Actually, most the rentals I do are to friends, family members and business aquaintetances (sp)
These people realize the "True Value" of Disney Points and don't have any problem paying for them.

Also about 40% of my renters have joined DVC during or after their stays. You better believe that DVC and my guide likes that. Oh, If only I could get something for a referal.

[chris1gill]

Someone in an above post said that 10 dollars is what the market rate is. Actually, if we ask for more, the renters will pay more! Do you see how many people are trying to rent points? The market will bare significantly more than ten dollars a point... at least 15.00...

[McGrane]

It is clear that Nuthut bought his DVC as an investment vehicle and is trying his hardest to drive the price of his product up. I personally hate when I've had to sell my points because vacation time with my kids is worth more than any money I have the potential to make. However, twice I've had to do partial sells and my rules are: 1. Sell ONLY to DVC members; and 2. Sell at a fair price, usually $7-$9/point depending on expiry. The sales have been quick, paid in full up front immediately, with someone I can trust because there is the link with DVC.

I find this Ebay selling to be outside of what was intended in the DVC guidelines. I also find it unethical for Nuthut to be putting posts out trying to boost point rate, using this Board just as an advertisment tool.

[bigdisneydaddy]

Since we havent seen one of these posts from you in a while, I was anticipating another one of your attempts to drive up rental prices.

[rsinj]

This is now the third time I've seen this thread started in as many weeks.

Why is it that you feel so insulted about a rental of $10/point? Do you feel you were overcharged for your DVC membership? If so many people feel this way, then sell your memberships (notice how the purchase price/point keeps going up yearly) and end your frustration - you can very easily resell. Do you see a lack of DVC memberships for sale? Do you see how the resorts are selling out one by one?

The fact of the matter is that you're paying significantly less than $10/point, so again, why do so many people have a problem? Because they can quickly calculate that at $10/point someone is paying "only" $80/night when Disney is charging a rack rate of $200 or $300? We have an economy based on supply and demand. Obviously if people are getting/paying $10/point, then that is what the market will bear.

What was your cost/point? It's quite simple to calculate:

(annual maintenance/point) + (present value of purchase price/point)

You paid roughly $65/point for 40+ years of ownership. That is about $1/point if you take the value adjusted for inflation. So you are paying less than $5/point as a DVC member. When you calculate that someone is paying $80/night, you are paying $40 a night for the same room. Again, where is the problem?

You have every right to feel insulted and I won't tell you otherwise. However, ranting just because you see $10/point posted for a rental is hardly something to be upset about - because you are still paying much less than that.

[bicker]

I attend a convention held at the Dolphin, Swan, YC and BoardWalk each January. A room at the BoardWalk Inn costs $225 plus tax per night during that convention. I would not rent my points so someone could stay there for less than $200 (no tax) per night. Well, the reality is a studio is 9 points -- that's $22.22 per point. I'd have no problem renting my points for that amount, if I weren't using the points myself.

Brian Charles Kohn
"in my own words" (http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker/index.html)
Some Imagination, huh? - Mickey Mouse

[nuthut]

You forgot to include the biggest expense into your calculations. Interest. You would have gotten some kind a return on your money if had put it somewhere else other than DVC.

So I would calculate an annual point cost:

Interest 10% of $72.00 equals $7.20
Annual dues $3.80
Depreciation 40 years @$72 equals about $1.75 for a grand total of $12.75. :)

[Stinson]

A few weeks ago, as I was organizing our February 2002 vacation, I discovered that I was short 12 OKW points, even with borrowing. So I went to the Rent board and posted a notice that I wanted to rent 12 OKW points. I received three responses by e-mail. Two offered to sell me the points. But the surprise was that one person sent me an e-mail offering the points for free. He said that he was happy to do that for a fellow DVC member. As it turned out, I didn't need to accept his offer because I decided to split the number of days on our vacation between OKW and BWV. (4 days at OKW and 5 days at BWV). What a nice thing that was for someone to have done.

[rsinj]

If you buy outright, you have no interest expense. My purchase price was $67/point and that's the end of it.

However, if you finance the purchase of points and try to run a business reselling those points, it is very easy to see how you would be operating at a loss until you could get the $12.75/point you've calculated - and that's assuming you financed 100%, which doesn't ever happen.

But true, I hadn't even considered the cost to those who finance - but obviously that's their choice and I am sure that before purchasing, they did the necessary calculations to justify their own purchase.

[rsinj]

>
Interest 10% of $72.00 equals $7.20

Depreciation 40 years @$72 equals about $1.75 for a grand total of $12.75.
>

You forgot to include the effect of inflation over that time in your calculations. $72 today will be worth nowhere near as much 40 years from now. Same goes for that 10% interest - it is based on $72 in 2001 dollars. Time value of money.

[PamOKW]

Nuthut, you paid $72 per point?

The DVC board here was set up for use the way Stinson described. As a convenience for DVC members. If it's going to be used to force up the price of rental points for non-DVC (as well as DVC members) then it's really a commercial venture and Pete should be cut in on the "action". All the other resorts pay to advertise here on the DIS why should DVC rentals be free? In fact, DVC rentals on a large scale are in competition with his offsite resorts.

The fact remains that renting DVC points is not a normal reservation of hotel rooms. There is risk for the renter. If they are not getting a substantial deal on the price there is no reason to rent.

[wininbid]

So impressive to see how you can "manufacture" a figure that is greater than the $10 you want to see go higher. You said people could have gotten more for their money had they investd it somewhere else. Well those people that bought into DVC, obviously didn't want to invest their money in anything else. And if you are saying that they could have gotten 10% on their money guaranteed for the year you are showing, that is rediculous. If you can get me 10% let me know. Just admit the fact that you are trying to drive the price up to fatten your pockets a little bit more than you already are. I'm glad the points are so low, to discourage people like you from renting points.
And to all of you that don't frequent EBAY to rent your points. Imagine if the rental price goes up to $15 or $20 per point. How many more people like NUTHUT do you think there will be. Let me see, if I can buy $200 points for $60 per point on the after market =$12000. And I can rent those points for $20 each, every year, that is $4000 per year, making it paid off in 3 years, not including the annual fees. Not a bad investment. Just think about what a price increase will do!

[Dean]

True most people don't buy DVC as an investment but when valueing you're points for rental, one should at least consider the real cost to them like you would with an investment. Realizing there are many factors like personal usage, inflation of resort prices and the like that are very difficult to predict and factor in; I would have to assign a price of $10 pp but with the recent increase in costs, the higher maint fees and the lost income on the "investment" new owners ($67-72 pp) would need to value their points at a little more (maybe $11 or $12 pp).

True the current market is $10 pp but regardless of nuthut's feelings, there seems to be considerable preasure for that to change though I'd suspect a slow increase initially to $11 then eventually to $12 for all but distressed points.

Dean

[Dasha]

Renters are evil because they wish to make money?
Therefore Disney is evil for selling DVC for such a great profit for themselves. Or do you normally pay $676,000 ($13,000 times 52 weeks) for a 1 bedroom condo in Orlando?

So why stop at renters? If Disney would only sell 50% of a resort and only take cash reservations 6 month out, all the reservation problems would be solved.

And if evil Disney took only a reasonable profit and sold points at $20/pt, then everyone could buy and we would eliminate renters.

But renters are being capitalistic, which is the foundation of America. And if you think we going to sit here and listen to you criticize America, well you have another thing coming (perhaps a visit from John Belushi's ghost?)!

And its not even April 1st . . . . .

[Bennet]

I think it is funny listening to the self-professed capitalists on these boards complain about market forces and look for non-market interventions.

Some rail against a free market for rental points because they see it as disadvantageous to their use of their points and call for the government (in this case Disney governs DVC) to interfere with private contracting of rentals.

Others see the free market as disadvantageous to their use of their points as rentals. They seek a cartel in rental point prices to shill up the their points auction value.

The nasty thing about markets is they do things that not everyone likes. The question is do you believe in free markets even when you don’t like the result or do you see it as an insult?

Adam Smith or Carl Marx?

[PamOKW]

The increased seeking of DVC points on the DIS board is probably largely due to folks hearing about "deals" on the Budget Board. They are looking to get a studio for $80 or less. If they can't get that, they'll book the All-Star. Just because a perceived demand is there doesn't mean they are willing to pay a premium.

[bicker]

Indeed. The value is the value regardless of how many people decide not to take advantage of it. The reality is that the price for renting points is set by a meeting of the minds between renter and rentee. Very soon, very few DVC members will be willing to rent for $10 per point, and renters who are getting a windfall now will get less of a windfall then.

Brian Charles Kohn
"in my own words" (http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker/index.html)
Some Imagination, huh? - Mickey Mouse

[jennypenny]

There is a certain amount of risk involved when renting points privately from a DVC member. If prices were almost the same, I would think people would spend a little extra to have the security of dealing with Disney directly.

Personally, I find this thread self-serving and distasteful.

I think by promoting the renting of points on such a large scale (which is obvious by the number of listings here and on ebay by certain individuals) you put Pete in awkward position. He might be seen (by Disney) as endorsing activity that is not permitted according to the DVC contracts.

[Tinker Bell]

We can argue all we want on what the value SHOULD be. But the bottom line is that the market decides what the value IS.

Some DVC folks are very efficient in ensuring that they maximize their vacation value from their DVC membership - others less so. Some people are very focused on getting as much money as they can out of their DVC membership and others couldn't care less about the money.

In fact I think the reality is that most DVC folks aren't in it for the money and are only renting points as a last resort when vacation plans fall through. I think there will always be a steady supply of people in this situation that are just happy to recoup some of their cost and this will keep the renting price low.

So you can keep talking the price of points up until you're blue in the face, but I don't think it will change anything.


Tinker

[JAH]

I do not know who this person is but someone by the name vacation4u has been trying to sell OKW vacations on Ebay fo at least 3 months. I have been monitoring this since nuthut first began the campaign to drive up point rentals.
This vacation4u has listed dozens of auctions and I have yet to see one completed with a reserve price met. True some end with high bids of $600 for a 40 point studio reservation ($15 a point) this doesnot even meet their reserve.
I have checked the completed items and have concluded on Ebay that maybe you could average $525 for a 40 point res ( $13).Then minus the Ebay fees and add the aggravation of dealing with total strangers.
Although renting here is also to total strangers - we are all one DIS family. $10 on the rent/trade board I think is a fair deal.

[Dean]

Hi. I've seen several people come up with a price of $4-$5 per point as their cost using your methodology, and the financial analyst in me winces! :)

You mentioned that you purchased outright for $67/point. Someone who purchased 150 points at that price for cash paid ,050. Then, they have to pay $450-$600 per year for maintenance fees. Lets say you're paying $3/pt. main. fees. You can't just divide your initial cost by 40. That's like saying you paying $134,000 for your house today is equal to paying $2,000/year for 40 years. I wish I could've gotten that deal!

By paying ,000 up front for 150 points, you've given up that money. This is your "opportunity cost". You could have instead invested that money and taken out $775/year for 40 years (assuming 8% return). (Or, if you have debt such as a mortgage or car loan, you could have put the k towards that, saving you a similar amount in interest.)

So, to get 150 points, you've "given up" $775/yr. in investment income (or paid extra interest on debt of about that amount) and paid $450 in maintenance fees. That's $1,225/year. 20 years from now, assuming 2% increases a year, your maintenance fee will be $655. In 2041 it will be $975. On average you'll pay over $675, assuming they only go up by 2%/year.

So, to buy 150 points, you're giving up about $775 in investment income (or paying that much in interest on other debt) every year and on average you're spending $675 in maintenance fees. A grand total of $1,450 per year, on average, for 40 years. That's REAL close to /point.

Ok, ok, enough numbers you're saying.

My point is you are spending about $37,000 of your money (,000 up front, $27,000 in maintenance fees assuming 2% increases in the fees per year). $37,000 for 6,000 points over 40 years. That's over $6 per point on average, and doesn't include the missed investment income on giving up so much so early.

What does all of this have to do with the "right" rental value? Nothing. That is whatever supply and demand are. If you're going to lose 43 points in 2 months because you can't bank them, I'd think getting about what you pay on average for them is a good deal. Heck, getting $5 might seem good to you (as Disney now wants to pay for MB). And a renter might be willing to pay more than if they can use them many months from now and know that they can get the accomodations they want. And the rental value will probably always move in relation to Disney's hotel prices. So I'd be willing to bet big that when Disney is charging $450 to stay in a "studio" size room in 10 years, the rental value will be a lot more than /point.\3

[rsinj]

Yes, of course, etc., etc.

For us, our valuation was simply taking the $10,500 (actually less - because we were so bad and took the $10/point from DVC for half our points the first year) spread over 42 years and the annual maintenance. What was our "opportunity cost"? Putting the money into some other investment (which probably would have done terribly over the past year) or maybe a money market at 5% (barely covering inflation after taxes). So in the end, our cost is darn close to $5/point.

However, this thread has really gotten way out of hand. I agree with most others, that the DVC folks putting their points up for rental are in the vast minority. Like most others, if I had points to get rid of, I'd bank them to next year or just take a more expense room the next time.

I don't begrudge those that rent their points, nor those that buy the rental points. What gets me is that people are insulted and take it personally when they see points being rented for less than their perceived cost.

It's a market - just like your house or any other real estate - it goes up in value, it goes down in value. There are sellers and there are buyers. Somewhere they have a meeting of the minds and do their deal. In this case though, I think it's pretty clear that over time the cost/point is going to go up as room rates go up.

[jennypenny]

I am not against renting points. I have participated in the rental process more than once. DVC owners should get the most for their money. And some years that might mean renting out their extra points, and other years it might mean renting some for extended vacations.

I am merely disappointed that (1) people seem to be in the "business" of renting points, using DVC as a commercial venture more than a personal vacation ownership, and (2) people use these boards to persue those commercial interests.

I'm not going to skip threads just because I don't like them. I'm all grown up now, I can take it. :)

[sconstantz]

and have been following these posts for awhile...

first, some background. I worked for the construction company that built DVC Hilton Head and my husband worked for the advertising agency engaged by DVC to create their advertising, so we are not strangers to the DVC concept. and have considered purchasing for several years.

We are now partners in our own advertising agency in a different town and have a 3 year old DS. And he wanted to go to Disney World this year. I started my "exhaustive" research. and we decided we would stay at OKW, and check out the experience. Then I stumbled (literally) onto this website and loved it. Then I found the DVC message board and was excited. Finally, I could hear some remarks about the resort and DVC from the owners. Which was great. Then I found the rent/trade board.

I was very intrigued, but it took me awhile to act. You see, it is a very risky proposition. Founded on trust. Basically, I am a trusting person, but on the internet? Well, I met a friend here, and she rented her points to me this year, as she can't make her vacation. So far, so good. And I am planning a vacation for May. But, I'm not sure I would have done it for a higher price. When the cost per point starts to rival what I can pay disney without risk, it no longer is worth it. I am still biting my nails, even with my confirmation ticket. Let's face it. The member can change that reservation in a NY second. And I'm out a lot of money, and a vacation.

So, members can charge whatever they choose. Renters will then have to make a choice if the risk/return is acceptable.

Personally, I think I did a good business deal. The member had her points and didn't bank them, she was going to lose them (please analyze that cost, no vacation and no money), I want to go on vacation, and have the money, and AM WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK. Isn't that what America is about?

Thanks for letting me chime in. I appreciate that the members care so much about their properties, and am looking forward to a great vacation.
(and oh, by the way, I don't know about other renters, but I have never "trashed" any place I have stayed. I usually rent a house at the beach for one to two weeks, and have never left a place any worse than I walked in, and usually better. So don't worry. And we have 3 adults and one child in a 1 bedroom, so we aren't over the limit- don't worry.)

shelly

[SueOKW]

I hope you have a great time in May! I think if you found a DVC member on this board renting points, you shouldn't be biting your nails.

Like someone said above, most of us consider ourselves in the DIS family.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm glad you are getting a chance to experience a wonderful DVC vacation, and hope to hear all about it upon your return!!
Sue

<img width="200" src="http://www.geocities.com/dmurphydis/cleveland.gif">

[PamOKW]

Shelly have a great time and thanks for the insight from the other side.

Sue, I wouldn't be overly confident about the integrity of doing a rental just because it's done on these boards. This site has grown very large and very public. When doing a private business deal here the risk is about the same as it is anywhere else on the Internet.

[Bennet]

JeffreyH Welcomed Guest Wrote about "opportunity cost"

Well done Jeffrey!

I have seen other similar number crunching analysis and I have done some myself. All the ones I have seen that pass the muster of finance 101 - the time value of money - back at college come up around $10 per point. Most of the variance is a function of the interest rate used to discount cash flows.

I find little coincidence that the market for rental of points comes in at about the same “real” annual cost of holding points that your and other financial analysis show. Most of the people renting points are not in it as a profit maximizing business they are looking for fair compensation for their unused points. In other words they are looking to break even.

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[Richyams]

That is the problem I have. If most of the people were in it for getting rid of unused points, great. I have no problem at all with that.

Even people who bought more points then they can now currently use and rent out the extras every year. I have no problem at all with that. Even if they are renting out a substantial portion.

I have a problem with using only Sun to Fri. People who are renting to maximize profit by using only Sun-Fri are hurting all of us.

I don't even care if the make use of the 11 month window. I just think that they should be using the points in the same proportion as the rest of us. Sure, you can maximize value by going 10-12 nights with only one weekend, but at least you are using a weekend. The people that are forced to use three or four weekend days in a 8-9 day trip will make up for the lower weekend use.

Unfortuantely, I think that the bed is made. There isn't really anything we can do about it, and Disney has shown that they don't care about mantaining owner value, so they won't do anything about it, I am not even sure they could if they wanted to.

The only existing rule that they may be able to use is declaring a renter. They could certainly monitor EBAY and see that some guests are renters. If the owner didn't declare that guest as a renter, Disney may be able to impose some sort of sanction. I don't think they would go to that trouble or effort.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx,This has failed every time it has been tried, why do we still have liberals?

[Dean]

Rich, I think you hit the nail on the head. The system is set up as it is and was that way when we bought in. I know I use exclusively Sun-Fri for my personal use. Only once in 7 years have I used points for a Friday or Sat night and it was at your beloved VB. Had to be in the area anyway and didn't want to stay in a hotel for just one night.

I also feel that most people that rent fit the demographics you've laid out, I know I do. But at the same time I have 502 points and now 5 other timeshare weeks so no way I can use them all. I suspect there are only a limited few that have bought with the idea of actually renting out their points.

Also remember that overall any rules that are directed at limiting rentals in some way will likely affect the rest of the membership to a far greater degree overall than it will affect the renters. Both legally and contractually, DVC really has little options at this point even if they wanted to "police" this activity.

Lets look at another activity. That of depositing DVC with an independent exchange company. The member would likely reserve the highest demand week that fits their needs and deposit with say SFX. SFX would give them a bonus week and allow the chance to trade for a larger unit than deposited. And before anyone would get upset over this option, it's definitely protected under the FTC. It wouldn't affect weekends vs weekdays but would affect availability at the highest demand weeks.

Dean

[sconstantz]

to Sue and Pam. We are definately looking forward to our trip. We ordered a trip planning video from Disney, and every night our son has us play it so we can talk about what we are going to do and see!!! We are going for 8 nights and taking my mother with us for babysitting, etc. I will be happy to share our experiences with everyone.
again, thanks for making me feel welcome.
shelly

[WDWMom]

Nuthut,

If you rent to only family, friends and business acquaintance and they know the value of the Disney dollar why do you care what other people rent their points for? Charge what you want and leave everyone else alone. DH and I rent points once to family and charged them $1200 for 7 nights at OKW in March- 218 points. That's only $5.50/pt. We could not use them and they helped us pay for an add-on of 100 pts. Do I look back and think I got a bad deal. No way!! The points would have been forfeited (sp) and we helped family out.

So, please leave other people's business alone. If you want to rent for more, go ahead, but stop whining about it

1976 off site
1982 Fort Wilderness
1985 off site
1994 Dixie Landings
1995 Dixie Landings
1996 Dixie Landing
1996 Wilderness Homes
1997 Caribean Beach
1998 OKW/BWV
1998 OKW
1999 OKW
2000 OKW 2x
2001 OKW

[Bumpy]

I feel nuthut is doing us all a favor when he posts about prices being too low. He or she is not telling us what to do merely informing people that these points are going for much more in other markets on the internet. that is not butting in to others people busniss at all. If you saw someone selling a car for much less than they could get for it would you not want to let your friend know? He doesn't have a need to share this info as he is already renting his points at the price he considers fair. He does not need these boards as their is ebay and yes even other places on the internet for renting points. Why would you be upset with someone for sharing information that may benefit others on this board. People who want the price to stay lower are doing it for their own self serving purposes such as not agreeing with renting points at all or they think it should only be done in a certain way. I thank Nuthut for sharing and I think it is rude to to say to someone to stay out of others busniss on a board that is meant for sharing information. If you dont like what he has to say than dont read it or respectfully disagree.

[ckr]

Further, if you rent to friends, family, business aquaintances, why do you have to do so much advertising for those hard to get ressies you seem to scarf up for rental? Perhaps by business aquaintances you mean people you rent to... Oh, but that certainly isn't commercial, right? Please!!!

Sorry. That sounds awfully close to a personal attack. And I don't want to do that. But nuthut is really pushing this too far. The insult here is that nuthut IS using the VACATION CLUB for commercial purposes. And rubbing it in our noses at that! If he'd just be quiet and rent his points to his friends and family, no one would know or care about how much he gets, how often he rents, what type of units/days, what type of season, etc. Rental activity should be for members in a bind who need to occassionally unload some points (ie.; NON-commercial). If the demand is there, the member can ask for a higher price. Based on demand, the price will very likely increase NATURALLY. However, I fear that nuthut's COMMERCIAL/BLATANT/UNETHICAL behavior here may jeopardize that natural process as some are wanting to hold to $10 just to keep commercial entities from increasing their profit margin. (Me included.) I also fear that as this debate escalates, there may be some restrictions put on the renting activites. So again, the irresponsible actions of a few will in the end hurt us all!!

Sorry, nuthut. I do not dislike you, but I really dislike what you're doing to OUR VACATION CLUB. Nothing personal.

[This message was edited by ckr on 03-26-01 at 09:38 AM.]

[dawnpardo]

I am a DVC member at OKW since 1997. I just returned from a week at OKW -it was great. While at the pool, I overheard two groups of people talking about renting points from DVC members. They were saying that they obtained points for $7/pt!!! They were also saying that it was cheaper for them to stay at OKW than they other hotels around the parks. Please note that these were also the people who left their trash - empty cups, etc. around the pool and were flicking butts into the sand! I truly think we should ALL reconsider selling points so cheap. $10/pt is too cheap - $7 is ridiculous!! If you're going to sell, please make it at least $15-18 a point. I need to vent!
:)

[PamOKW]

I just don't get why folks rent to strangers in the first place. If for some reason you can't use your points, then within your own circle of friends (or friends of friends) and acquaintances wouldn't there be folks willing to pay low rates for rentals? This is especially true for people who are taking reservations at the 11 month window. There are also so many options available to members I don't see why you can't do something for yourself with your points. Bank them a year and then take a big trip, etc.

I've seen the ads on E-Bay and while I admit I don't follow them to conclusion, I see mostly prices ranging from $180-$300 for 5 night stays. I don't see where people are moving toward paying big money for this.

[Joeblack]

Trying to fight a free market is like swimming against the current.

Free market regulates itself. $10/point may sound low to us for purely sentimental value. We see it as having a higher value, but the truth is, it covers our annual costs including annual dues,original investentt, lost interest, etc.
Moreover..we, as members, are actually paying about $10/point to stay in a DVC resort. Why is it fair for us and nort for renters? OK..granted, we have a 42 year commitment, dues to pay and so on, but renters don't have any flexibility when going to a DVC resort..it is a matter of pure luck to find a date you might want for rent.
Availability of rented points is not so big. It is a random thing and either you get lucky and find exactly what you were looking for (for rent), or you just grab whatever you find for the price. We, DVC members choose when to go!!!!


Renting is a reassuring option when we buy DVC because you can never be sure you will be able to go every year, and it is nice to know you won't necessarily lose your money if you can't go.

We, in the DVC board are just a small percentage of DVC owners, and, although we have some influence, it is not enough as to drive the renting price up. Maybe it is enough to raise the price in the DIS renting boards for a little while, but there will always be somebody who really needs to rent the points and will go for $10 or less, driving the price down. (Just go to a recent thread that counts the number of DVC members on this board and divide it by the total of members).

If the price per point goes up, it will give way to a great business opportunity for people to make money purely by buying DVC points and renting them out, like somebody else pointed out before.


My opinion: Manage well your points and enjoy them with your family while they last. If you can't use or bank your points, try renting them out to your family or friends, and if you can't do that eitehr..don't worry, you will get your money back by renting them out. It will not be hard at all. Only don't expect to make money off it...You won't with the current price the market forces so wisely have set.

[KNWVIKING]

I personally don't rent, I use all my points and would love more, but I do believe anything less then $15.00 pp is too cheap. In an earlier post someone mentioned overhearing renters brag about how little they paid and observed how they were leaving trash around. Well, I know what I'm going to say next is rude,insensitive,politically incorrect, blah,blah,blah.... BUT, why did we buy DVC and not stay at el-cheapo resorts or for that matter the All Star resorts. Me personally, I like to associate with a better class of people. People that respect my rights & property. People who know what manners are, understand "please" and "thank you". People who I can hold an intellegent conversation with without hear the "F" word six times in one sentence. When it comes to family,rent the points for whatever you want, but if your doing it just for the $$$- and I don't care if it's "commercial" or not, don't cheapen the quality of my resort.

[A1A1]

There is always one nuthut in the bunch. This whole renting thing bothers me. I think it is because of the commercial venture nuthut has embarked upon. This seems to be purely for financial gain, and the reason nuthut is so nutty about this is because the evil plot is foiled when people don't bite high enough on the bait. Not making as much money as you thougt, huh nuthut?

Thank goodness those trash leaving, butt flicking people are just renters and not members, or we'd have them all the time. I think those kind of inconsiderate people would be that way no matter where they stay, but it's too bad it's in our homes away from home.

I wouldn't engage in a risky venture with strangers, but would possibly give/rent really cheap points to my family.

Nuthut, you started threads like this not too long ago right? Where's the beef? Is it with DVC members who choose to utilize their vacation ownership interest the way it was intended? Or is it with those that aren't helping to make your pockets a little more full?

[Bumpy]

So What, You think that people who have more money have better manners or are more intellegent. That last post just makes me sick. People are really starting to show their true colors over this issue.

[KNWVIKING]

No bumpy, the butt flicken,trash leaving people are showing their true colors.

[A1A1]

Bumpy you really read a whole lot into that post.

Let me spell it out for you:

Anyone who leaves trash around without regard for others will do it nomatter where they are. Clear? There is no excuse for leaving trash anywhere. WDW has invest a lot in garbage cans and they hire people to empty them.


I made no mention of money. I didn't say anything about intelligence, either. That was not even something I thought of. I am the least elitist person on the planet. Please don't put words in my mouth, or in my posts. Let's settle down.

[Bumpy]

Sorry KNWVIKING,
You are showing your true colors by your post. Anyone who reads it it can see the blatent insinuations you made about people who may only be able to afford staying at the all stars. I dont stay at the all stars because I like DVC accomadations it has nothing to do with the 'Type" of people who stay there. I would rather associate with happy, nonjudgmental, unbiased people any day over there than stay at a DVC resort with people who believe that their wealth makes them more special than others. That train of thought is just disgusting and insulting to so very many people who read these boards. Not to mention absolutly untrue. You never know those renters may usually stay at the Grand Floridian!

[Bumpy]

A1A1
I am so sorry that you thought I was referring to you. By no means was I speaking about your post. I was speaking about VIKINGS post above yours. We must have posted just before I posted my reply. Once again I am sorry for that confusion.

[A1A1]

No problem Bumpy....... ;)

[KNWVIKING]

Bumpy, if I had A 100th of the wealth you suddenly assume I have, I'd have a helluva lot more then 205 pts. I'm a blue collar worker in a truck shop. But I have stayed off site at $50.00 a nite locations. Have you read posts here about rude neighbors making noise- you don't know what noisey neighbors are if you haven't stayed "out there". Take a look at the common areas at OKW and compare them to some of the inexpensive locations off site. There was a bitter debate on this board about someone wanting to have 5 in a one bedroom at OKW, the 5th being 3 years old. Do you think off site resorts care if four or ten stay in a room.They just want the extra $10.00 for each person over four. You can call me a snob if you want, but I joined DVC because I didn't want that and I doubt I'm alone.

[Dean]

I know that many people have assumed that renters will be more abusive than owners and I'm not at all convinced that's the case. I can only speak from my personal experience which I've referred to several times on this board. When I've been contacted about renting my points, almost all people seem very nice and in general, I've been gratified dealing with them regardless of whether any transaction occured or not. Honestly though, the rare negative interction has generally been with a member and the only bad experience in an actual rental was with an owner and member of this board.

My point is that bad people will do bad things whether they own or rent. I see no evidence to suggest that DVC members are better or worse than any other group of people. Apparently some people bought DVC because they were joining an exclusive club. I bought to take my family to WDW and have the space and luxury afforded by Home away from Home accomodations. Though I consider many here on this board my friends, I also consider each and every one I've rented to my friend as well. I guess this has been as much of a hobby to me as anything else. If it was for the money, I'd just work an extra weekend and likely make more than I'd ever make renting DVC.

Wasn't it a member that accosted another member (and member of this board) in the laundry room?

Dean

[CarolAnnC]

Personal attacks and/or insults towards individuals or groups of people are not tolerated on the DIS. This thread has obviously deteriorated and it is now being locked.

<font size=4><font color=purple><font face=BrushArt>Carol</font></font></font>
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