How Long Before We Lose Member Perks?

[PamOKW]

It appears that renting of points may be becoming more common and is being touted on Internet sites beyond our own DIS Budget Board. If it becomes a common situation, I'm wondering whether this may in the end have an effect on member perks such as pool hopping and video rental. Here's why:
Two families get to talking around the pool at BWV. The one family has just paid mucho dinero to Disney to stay at either the BWV or BWI. The discussion comes around to the fact that the other family rented points and are paying about $90 a night for their room. They mention the videos they got for the kids, the unbirthday party they went to and the discount they got at dinner at Narcoosee's. Shortly, they'll be heading over to SAB for a swim. The family paying $400 a night isn't entitled to any of these. I think I would be somewhat annoyed and would probably let Disney know it.

One solution is to make sure only the actual member is getting these perks. Another option is to shut it down. Nobody gets the perk. I can see the pool hopping being the first to go.

Just a thought.

[DebbieB]

Before they shut it down completely, I would rather see them set the rule that the member has to be present for guests to get member perks.

The actual rule in the contract says that people who paid to rent points are not entitled to member benefits, but they have no way to prove that they paid or not. Does Member Services even ask when a member makes a reservation for someone else?

[Doctor P]

Perhaps the solution is one that has been stated before: treat people other than members staying on points as guests just like at other private clubs like country clubs. That is, "your money is no good here"--any and all charges must go to the member's account for settlement. I can pretty much guarantee that if members were put on the hook for all room charges and all passes, etc. (just like a country club where you can't even pay cash at the pro shop!!!) attributable to their guests, renting would be more limited to the noncommercial intent of the DVC.

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[Dean]

Member perks have long been a have vs have not for owners vs those that rent through DVC or exchange. That's true for DVC and many other timeshares. It simply says, if you want the perks you should buy there. Renters should not get the perks but guests of the member should. It is up to DVC to make the distinction and enforce it. It is however irrelevent what someone paid that rented through Disney directly and what they paid or how they feel about it has no bearing on the DVC direct rental issues.

At other timeshares I'm aware of, someone who rents from an owner is officially a guest of the owner and gets all benefits associated with same.

One thing is for certain (IMO), if there are any changes to the points structure, pool hoping or any other perks, it won't be because of the rental issue. It's just too small of a fish in a big pond.

To repeat, DVC should enforce the idea that renters shouldn't get member perks, I don't think they should restict it to the member only in most cases. They do however formally restrict the pass discounts to the actual member only, but here again, they don't enforce it.

Dean

[drusba]

Personally I do not get excited about pool hopping but I know to some it is almost a religion. However, I perceive the threat to the future of that program to be not people renting but simply numbers. The more DVC resorts they add at WDW the more members they add. It is probably close to about 47,000 owners right now just at the three DVC resorts. By the time VWL and BCV sell out, you will likely have well over 60,000 owners of just the WDW resorts, and if a lot them actually engage in pool hopping you can easily start creating crowd problems at other pools. They have already started us down the path of the elimination of pool hopping with the Easter time restrictions at Stormalong Bay and the lack of use of AKL when it opens.

Currently owners who rent are supposed to inform MS they are doing so and then renters are not supposed to get the extra benes. However, it does not appear to be working that way as owners may not provide the information and the resorts seem to ignore the distinction and just give renters room keys marked DVC Member so they get access to the extra benefits. However, if they wanted to enforce the rule that only owners and guests staying with owners get the extra benes they could probably do it-- just require production of an actual DVC Member card (rather than just a room key) to get any of the benefits.

[Dennis the WDW Menace]

I agree that something needs to be done. I have heard people talk at the pool at OKW about the fact that they rented the place they were staying at on a computer site and it was costing less than they would have paid for a mid-priced resort. They seem to boast about it and all the perks but don't realize that the person within ear-shot may have paid the "big bucks" to Disney for their room. I thought that when you rented out your points that all extra perks like discounts and such were not given to the renters. This was how it was explained to me when I first signed at DVC in '93. They told me that only immediate family was given the same benifits as the member when they used their points. I thought that these people who were boasting about their great find somehow got past MS and was told that they were family members by the member making the reservation.
It seems to me that it's the members responsibilty to tell MS that the points are rented out and let DVC be responsible for following through as it's outlined in our handbook. I would have some reservations about renting out points because if the renter breaks something or takes DVC property that I would be held accountable.

[DVCDAVE]

Don't forget that we as members have the right to bring this issue up at any annual meeting. If WE bring it up first, then maybe it can be addressed before the perks are gone. If I rember the rules, only members, and non-paying guests are entitled to the perks. I do not have the answer as to how to address the issue, but maybe someone can.

http://www.weddingcove.com/images/bwv_logo_trans.gif

WDW:
76,77,78,87,FW
92,Offsite
95 POL
96(2), GF,Offsite
97,GF
98,99,00,FW
8/00 DVC member
3/01 BWV, FW
11/01 BWV !

[Doctor P]

The idea of actually producing the membership card AND the room key to get member priveleges would be a good idea (need to produce both so that we don't also have members abusing the priveleges only available when staying at a DVC resort on points).

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[mikek]

Maybe the get rid of member perks. But I dont think its because of people renting and then telling others they paid less.

Disney does that all the time- just look on the budget board- theres got to be 50 ways not to pay the full price at any resort. IF disney cared that people could get offended by that they wouldnt do it. THe whole place has tons of discounts that you need 'the secret handshake' to get- wether the handshake is a dvc or disney club card, a post card number, an amex card, a pile of different tours, etc...

THink of the plane trip you take down to Florida. The prices for the same ticket could range from a few hunded to a thousand or more. You dont see business people who pay 3 or 4 times more yelling at the tick agents (at least not for that reason- chuckle)

[ttsui01]

Funny how this is the DVC forum, so we have members saying DVCers should get perks but not others. Think what the other cash paying resorts guests feel when they find out we can use their pools! Gosh, the humanity! Think of the rage and protest they will have against us DVCers!!!

Privileges such as pool hopping is just that, a privilege. Disney can take it away any time they feel like. Once again, the number of actual DVC pool hoppers far outnumber the number of DVC renters/pool hoppers. The day Disney takes away this privilege will be because too many actual DVC members overwhelming the pool capacities, NOT RENTERS!!!!!!!

I've noticed it is always the same 3 or 4 posters that keeps coming up with these paranoia scenarios. Is someone paying them to say these things? Is there a secret society that I am not aware of here?

I beg those posters to please stop promoting paranoia and xenophobia. It is not a healthy image for potential DVCers to see.

Next thing you'll know, the renters are responsible for attracting Russian nukes and electric eels in our pool(LOL). Yep, you heard it here first! :)

OKW 8/00, OKW DVC 2/01

[Dasha]

Rumor has it that Bugs Bunny was caught pool hopping at BW on rented VB points last Monday. He evidently paid $25/pt for a Su-Th rental on EBay. Seems that this was the last straw for Mickey and the pool hopping perk is now on its way out . . . . . .


Dasha

PS Word is that the Disney EBay auctions were actually just a ploy for Disney to gain access to EBay servers and inject the deadly Goofy virus to end the DVC rental practice.

[Doctor P]

Guess it just depends on whether your ox is getting gored or not. I have already been burned by not being able to get a reservation I wanted for the holidays and seen it being rented on EBAY before even the eleven month window! That's not paranoia, it's reality.

I agree that renters are unlikely to be the major threat for scaling back the DVC member perks, but abuse is abuse. As I have said before, DVC is built on trust and goodwill of us together as members. Violation of that trust and goodwill is serious in my eye in a venture like DVC. I am not asking for anything I am not willing (or expecting) to give to others.

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[KNWVIKING]

As a DVC member, I go to OKW 2-3 times a year. I'm to the point in my Disney "life" that I've done and seen most of what Disney has to offer. I now enjoy relaxing,seeing other sights, kicking back at the pools. I imagine most renters are like me when I first went to Disney- hurry,hurry, hurry....see everything. They aren't even thinking about pool hopping, it would waste too much park time. They are no threat to our pool hopping privaledge.

[BobH]

If the current members are concerned about the impact of people renting points blocking out members who have purchased them - what is the solution? Can a motion be made a a DVC Members Meeting to restrict the amount of points that can be rented out? Doesn't the current contract permit the very practices that are being carried out by members that don't want to use their points themselves? I understand the concens - what are the potential solutions?

[Dean]

If DVC wanted to affect the situation described, they have precious few options. All of the options would likely affect all members to one degree or the other. Both legally and contractually DVC owners can rent out their points. About all DVC can do is restrict the none contractual member benefits from those that rent, change the current point structure to make weekends less of a differential or require minimum stays. I'm not sure if they legally could restrict certain stays made at say 10-11 months out to the owners only, I suspect it wouldn't be legal.

We've all bought into a system that is flexible but now that flexibility may (in some people's eye's) be harming the members in some ways. It goes with the teritory. Reality is that even if 50% of the rooms were being used for rentals, they system is as it is.

Dean

[drusba]

Good shot Dasha at keeping it on the lighter side. BobH, the answer is probably not. Disclosure documents at time of contracting expressly allow renting subject to a vague limitation that prohibits members engaging in "repeated" renting to the level that they are engaging in it for a "commercial purpose." Such vaguaries are always construed against the draftsman (Disney here) and likely the best one could get from a court is that someone cannot just buy points with the intent of setting up a business of renting rather than using points himself. That kind of restriction actually makes sense from Disney's vantage not just to avoid competition but also to avoid legal problems. Someone (and it can be an individual owner) in the "business" of renting rooms at the resorts is required to collect and turn over to the "Great" State of Florida the 11% room tax and failure to do so could lead to a lien on the property or at least the interest of that owner and to the owner's facing substantial fines.

People who bought did so on reliance on what the documents provided and Disney cannot make material changes as to any owner after closing. By statute, a timeshare owner's ability to "sell" or "lease" his interest are considered material terms and thus any restrictions relating to sale or lease not spelled out in the initial disclosure documents that the owner received before closing cannot be added after closing.

As to ttsui01's comments, I do not perceive people as engaging in paranoia or xenophobia as just expressing concern. Also, to a certain extent they are providing merely an equalizing factor as there are those few who often start posts designed solely to promote renting and to get people to raise the price per point (those posts are usually started by members who engage in a lot of renting). Moreover, DVC expressly has perks which are supposed to apply only to members and certain non-paying guests. Members thus have a right to expect those perks to apply only as stated. Non-members might consider that elitist but members consider it part of the bargain they made. They are actually insisting on nothing different than those who express outrage that any one would want to take away their right to rent-- the enforcement of their contract terms. Also, you should note that pool hopping is subject to a diferent interpretation from one that it is just something that can be taken away at Disney's discretion. Particularly in the old days, pool hopping was presented in the sales material and presentations as a permanent right and not as something that could be changed. It was actually separated for presentation from all the other benes (like discounts, etc) which they said could be changed. Thus, its demise could raise a lot of hairy issues for Disney..

[Doctor P]

If Disney were to ever want to create a window where only owners could reserve, I believe they could do it. However, the way that it would probably have to be done is by adding a member perk rather than subtracting one. I did not pull out my documents to confirm this, but I am pretty sure that they could create a new period (further out than the home resort period) in which owners only could make personal reservations at their home resort. For example, at twelve months out owners could make personal reservations that could not be changed to a nonowner's name. At 11 months (remember the 11 month window is not fixed in stone), the current rules would kick in.

I'm not advocating this, but I think it could be done this way.

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[PamOKW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another possible solution for the holiday list is to give DVCers a higher chance of scoring a reservation than renters and other non-owner guests. For each ballot, they could double or triple DVCers' ballots. [/quote]

I have no idea what this means. No one but a DVC member can be on the holiday list to begin with. It is also not a lottery (with the exception of 12/99) so there are no ballots. A solution would be the member needs to be staying at the resort for a holiday reservation. Just as the member must be in the unit that gets the 25% member discount.

I realize this may all sound like paranoia to some. But, the extent of rentals comes as a surprise to many members when they first come to these boards. Maybe it's exaggerated here, maybe it's not. Just something to consider.

I also know folks pay different prices for hotels, planes, rental cars, etc. Frequent flyers and hotel guests also get special perks. People who have paid a minimum of $10,000 to belong to DVC and dues of roughly $500 or more, also deserve perks that are not available to some family paying a one time price of $350 for a five night stay.

[Olaf]

New here. What is the 25 percent discount that Pam mentioned? Thanks

Steph
DL - 1966
DL - 1970
WDW - 1973 - Contemporary
WDW - 1975 - Day trip
DL - 1988 - Day trip
WDW - 1993 - CBR
WDW - 1995 - SOG
WDW - 1997 - SOG
WDW - 1999 - SOG
WDW - 2001 - SOG & PO

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[drusba]

Olaf, DVC members can make cash reservations for rooms at a DVC resort and get 25% off the rack rate. Note. though, that cash reservation availability under that program is very limited and very often not available particularly for ressies made two or more months out.

[Peterd]

The way it is now, On your key it states DVC. A simple change of only putting DVC on keys for members or family and friends staying with family would correct it.
We own at both BW and Okw. In the beginning when we would stay at Okw, we would pool hop to the BW/Yacht and Beach/ or the contemp., sometimes a moderate. We don't do it as much anymore, because we usually just stay at the BW. I DO think the Pool hopping will most definetly be the next thing to go. Adding all the extra rooms at the WL and next the Y and B, will bring THEIR pools to capacity. After enough complaints, from paying customers and DVC member home resort owners, Disney will have no other option than to change the rule. We didn't buy in when the Okw members got the free passes. I forgot how that went. Did they originally say it would end at certain date, or did they say subject to change? If it was the latter, I would have been pretty upset.
It seems now that Disney knows how much people want to buy into DVC, they don't have to actually do any Selling of benefits to potential buyers anymore. One of our selling points that we liked, was driving down early for your trip, you used to be able to call up and get a room a day earlier. Not anymore! You used to be able to get the 25% discount for your rooms most of the time. Not anymore! When you do, you find out the two bedroom, that used to go for $315 with the discount is now closer to $500. The other selling point was being able to get a non-home resort at the 7 month window. It's getting more difficult. We don't really care too much about the Pool hopping anymore, but it would be nice if DVC would offer a better discount on tickets rather than that 4 out of 5 year pass thing, or changing the resv. window,(like someone mentioned above), for DVC members only without the option of changing the resv to someone else. At least this would guarentee that members are able to have a better chance to stay at the other non-home resorts, ahead of the ebay renters. People could still rent, but there would be some sort of benefit for a member having to wait for the 7 month window to get the resv first.

[LisaR]

I am sorry, but I have to ask a question here. There are posts ALL THE TIME on this board about renters, member benefits - or lack there of, room limits, etc. Basically, I see a lot of complaining. Now, I am not by any means trying to show any disrespect to anyone. These boards are designed for many things and one of those things seems to be to vent. That is fine with me. However, I am one of those people that fined venting not enough when I have an issue that is close to me.
Here is the question: What does anyone ever do about it????? I am a brand new owner. However, I have read that there are weekly meetings at BWV and OKW. MS must also take complaints. Wouldn't it be much more productive if those of you that are really worried or ticked off or whatever, did something constructive about it??
Again, I am not trying to offend or rag on anyone. I am just saying that I would not just sit around and worry or complain if something (DVC related or not) bothered me that much. I have read VERY FEW posts of people actually emailing or calling MS. If there REALLY is a problem, shouldn't something be done by the members? Venting is great but it doesn't fix anything.
Lisa

[PamOKW]

Lisa, you are perfectly correct. Venting, complaining, fighting amongst ourselves, etc. doesn't do any good at all in terms of how DVC does things. When I've had some concerns or questions about the program I've written to the manager of DVC. I think true concerns get more respect when you take the time to send a snail mail letter. I've always received a reply. They take comments into consideration when making decisions as well as the surveys they do. If they don't hear from us, they don't take it into consideration.

[dtheboys]

What do you mean "unbirthday Party???"
I also did not know about the free video tape rentals
Thanks
Doug

DVC member
18yrs in a row going to Disney!!!

[Beachangel]

Never checked renting out but as a new member, perhaps I should have rented @ $10/pt than buy in. Especially since renters get the same perks - what was the point in buying in again???

"Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the THINKS you can think up, if only you try." Dr. Seuss

[Peterd]

We have emailed DVC many times about some of our concerns, and yes they have called to discuss them. Just last week, my wife talked to a higher up at DVC who called about an email, for almost 45 minutes. He understood our problem, and said in Nov when we return, he guarenteed we wouldn't have the same problem again.They do listen to the concerns. I don't see what's wrong with members talking to other members about what they would like to change. DVC does read these boards, they told me the other day. There are some pretty good suggestions that come out of these boards.
So I don't think it's necessarily whining, but talking about what other members like and dislike, and how we could go about to change it for the better of the members. In the past 5 years, we have had mostly great trips with DVC. On occasion, something came up that we didn't like, we would email DVC, talk to someone, and sometimes they would actually refund points, if we had a pretty good gripe or make sure the problem didn't happen again. We know you can't change things by just posting here, but if you get enough people to agree with you on certain issues, DVC listens. I have sent a few of these threads to DVC, and have talked to them about them. They're very open to listening to suggestions, and I know it helps, we've witnessed it.

[danacara]

I think everyone needs to chill out. If the perks go, it certainly won't be because of the renters. It will be because of the addition of VWL and BCV, bringing pool levels beyond capacity.
I am all in favor of renters. They are an industrious lot. If you have done all of your research and come upon this site, or others like it, and you realize that you can have a deluxe room for $90 - wouldn't you jump on it? These are absolutely beautiful rooms. Didn't most of you buy DVC to travel deluxe while minimizing long run costs? If you weren't owners, wouldn't you be doing the same things as the renters? Spare me the moral grousing. I don't buy it.
If I had the points, I think I'd be over at Ebay getting $15-17 a point rather than the $10 I can get here. That's just basic utility optimization. So the pontificating about Ebay strikes me as being kind of hollow as well.

http://www.princeton.edu/~caragine/dormroom
Dorm Sweet Dorm!

[tiggersnj]

Pam,
What is the 25% discount you mentioned.

[PamOKW]

tigersnj, DVC members get a 25% discount off rack rate at DVC resorts, if rooms are available, when paying cash. The reservation has to be made through MS.

[spiceycat]

peterd when Dvc got the free passes it was made very obvious that the pass would run out on 12-31-1999. It was on the video, and it was on the contract that you signed. the one change that they made was using the 2000 points - first they say that you couldn't but then they changed there minds and did not tell members until you called with your request.

[Peterd]

Thanks cat, I was just curious. That was a pretty big incentive to buy.