DEBATE Is DCA Worth $14/Day?

[raidermatt]

"DCA is worth $14" (http://www.mouseplanet.com/al/docs/update.htm)

Interesting thoughts on converting DCA to an "American" themed park. Wouldn't take as much investment as it originally sounds. Still, not likely, according to the author.

One thing I don't quite understand is the whole claim that Disney execs are reluctant to change the park drastically because of egos. Does the deep discounting somehow get ignored by their egos? Is that really a source of pride?

Strange.

There's also some specific comments on DCA attendance, as well as the new Paris park (not good).

The article is a good read.

[Douglas Dubh]

I think converting it to an "America" theme is just plain silly. California is a fine theme, and the park is a fine park. True, it is not the theme I would have preferred and it needs some more rides, but it's at least as good now as the Florida Studios was a year and a half after opening - maybe better. It just had the misfortune to open during a bad time - and the comparisons to DisneySea are ridiculous. Sure DisneySea is pulling them in, but so is Universal Japan, and it's hardly on the same level as it's American sisters. Fact is, the American and Japanese economies are different.

Further, I doubt it's corporate egos holding back retheming. I think it's the realization that that would be a superficial change. The park needs some more rides, some more variety. It needs some more things that families can do together. There are plenty of rides that can do that and have a California theme. Mostly, it needs a better economy to support it.

The one day hopper seems kind of silly. I'd rather spend the money on a one day ticket to Disneyland or a one day ticket to DCA. There's plenty to do at either for a whole day. A two day hopper I could understand - I don't know why they've been dragging their feet offering one for so long.

[d-r]

I have to disagree about DCA - we rode every possible ride at least once, went to every movie/show that was there (blast was not yet there) and watched the Electric Parade in about a combined total of 6 hours. I think we took a break and went over to DL in the middle. And I mean that we rode things 2 and 3 times.

I will say that it was in November but it was on a Saturday. The park was virtually empty, but we still had plenty of time to spare.

That is not to say that I don't like DCA - its fine and most of the rides there with the exception of PP section are very good, but it is easily done in less than a day. We were at DL for 4 days and DCA was practically empty the entire time we were there - DL was packed over the weekend, but very reasonable during the week days we were there.

Melissa

[Douglas Dubh]

"I have to disagree about DCA - we rode every possible ride at least once, went to every movie/show that was there (blast was not yet there) and watched the Electric Parade in about a combined total of 6 hours. I think we took a break and went over to DL in the middle. And I mean that we rode things 2 and 3 times."

I'm not sure how this is possible. We've been down to the DL resort 3 times since DCA opened, and each time we've spent at least a full day or two half days at DCA. It takes at least a half hour each to see Golden Dreams, Muppets, Millionaire, Bugs, and the two shows in Animation. Then there's Screaming, Soaring, Limo, MM, Maliboomer, Stinger, Zephyr, Jellyfish, and Grizzly, which I would think would take at least 10 minutes average to ride (I'm pretty sure it took 15 minutes to ride Grizzly with no lines). Plus seeing some shows, looking through stores, and eating - and the wine movie and bread tour, it's 8 hours easy.

Course, I have kids, so add another hour or two at the redwood trail, at craft stations, at character greets, at the boat, at the carousel, and at the farm, and you've got a pretty full day.

[airlarry!]

This is an unwinnable debate.

I am absolutely convinced that if DisneySeas in its present form had been built instead of DCA, daily attendance would not be in the low thousands.

But there is no way of really knowing, is there?

With Japanese in the throes of their worst economy in decades, TDS still does roughly 10 million in roughly 2/3 of a year. It is not a fluke. It is not a sign of the Japanese inherent tourist superiority. It is a sign of word-of-mouth spreading about a park that the Imagineers sincerely gave their best effort to create a water-version of Disneyland.

Remember that on the same days that DCA pulls in less than 10, Disneyland pulls in 40k.

This park was a mistake. It may be years before people around the country realize it, but its design and execution was flawed, and the Company, I firmly believe, will pay for it.

But since I'm an optomist, I still believe it is not too late to fix this...

[d-r]

douglas- Melissa says "OK, well even 8 hours isn't a whole day"

We didn't show up early or at opening or anything, we slept in and took our time getting over there. We didn't have any plan, and we aren't commandos, but we also didn't have any children in tow. we did do every single thing though. As I remember it, we started with the hollywood area, with muppet vision, superstar limo was closed so we had to come back later. We did millionaire (Melissa was in the hot seat, so that was extra time afterwords while she was debriefed and signed the papers). we spent a lot of time in animation, because I am a buff and we were really interested in how it differed from mgm,so we did all that. Plus there were some new things in there and it was interesting, we spent a lot of time with the interactive stuff. We had lunch at the abc commissary thing. We did soarin' over CA. three times, so that we could ride in each row. we got stuck once for about 15 minutes, so that was extra time there. We went into the grand california resort to check it out (we are resort fans I guess) and looked around and had a couple of beers in the lounge there and caught up with the scores on tv and talked to the cms there. we did bugs life, and talked with a cast member for a while about how it was alike and different from the FL version - she told us about the hopper animatronic and how excited the imagineers were (we also talked a lot with the cms at muppets and animation). we went through the restaurant section there, and some ca. microbrew. On to paradise pier. Walked on to california screamin three times. I did maliboomer twice, Melissa only once. We did orange stinger twice, i liked it. We did the ferris wheel and carosel, then mulhulland madness wild mouse - we were curious because we knew that dinorama was coming, we hated it so only did it once. Rode golden zypher, and jumpin jelly fish because I wanted to be able to say we did everything. that was a waste of our time, but not like the time that we will never get back from going back and riding on superstar limo. We did the movie where whoopie told us how hard it was to come to california. We watched the band that drove around in the woodie a couple of times, couldn't get away from them. we rode grizzly river three times in a row without getting off, that was a whole lot of fun. We went back to paradise pier to put on some dry clothes and came back to ca. adventure. We went to the wine thing. We were tired and sat down with other guests and just hang out and talked to them about where they were from or whatever. I went to get some fish tacos in the restaurant area, and came back to where we were sitting by the wine place with a couple of beers. Then I went to go get more beer and did the tortilla factory and bread thing on the way over there so I could say i did it. The tortilla was good. We hung out and waited and talked with some more guests and drank some beer then watched the electric light parade. it was cool because it was so intimate, it was right there a hands reach away and there was no crowd. But that was kind of a draw back, too, because it seemed sort of chintsy with no crowd. So you are right, it was probabaly more like 8 hours than 6 hours.

Now don't get me wrong = neither Melissa or I have anything against Ca. adventure and we had a lot of fun that day. We liked it. It was slow paced and uncrowded and a lot of fun. Again, it was fall (but it was a Sat. = we went on Sat. figuring disneyland would be full). Also, even though it was our only time at ca. adventure we had the feel for the place because we had seen most of it in disneyworld so it was pretty easy for us to get around or whatever, it is a pretty small place. We liked it though.

dr

[raidermatt]

Its not whether any of us as individuals like DCA. I've been there and had fun. But its not even in the same league as DL.

The facts are that people just aren't showing up, and that's even with the heavy discounting.

I agree, a superficial theme change is not the answer, but as part of an overall strategy, it could certainly help. An American theme would always be in vogue, and would be more appealing to Californians.

It just depends on how committed they are to improving things.

[Cris]

I keep hearing "look at the studios when it opened" . Well the studios concept has a broader apeal and a concept that has many possibilities. I live in Ohio and personally it is a great state to live in and a great place to visit. But I certainly would not want Ohio Adventure *yawn*. See what I am trying to say? There are some great things in the park, but I think it was poorly planned. I feel that it is below par for Disney, and that makes me sad for the legacy of Walt. Though there are fans of California Screamin, I would like to see the whole PP area torn down and made into a quality "land" and then go from there. As for the studios in Paris, like MGM it has a lot of possibilities, and it will get there.

[Bob O]

Something needs to be done. People are voting with their pocketbook and even with great discounts DCA cant seem to draw many people. I havent been their yet but with a upcoming trip it makes you wonder how the park will be. I guessthe good thing is i wont have to worry about waiting in long lines.

[Douglas Dubh]

"With Japanese in the throes of their worst economy in decades, TDS still does roughly 10 million in roughly 2/3 of a year. It is not a fluke. It is not a sign of the Japanese inherent tourist superiority."

Yes, it is. Check out the website and information on Universal's Osaka park. I'm pretty sure it cost less than DCA, and has fewer attractions. Yet it's packing them in.

If Disney had spent twice as much on DCA, and only drew twice the number of people, they would have been in much more trouble than they are now. Opening smaller and builder had worked for them in the past. If it was my money, I think I would have taken the more prudent course.

[Douglas Dubh]

douglas- Melissa says "OK, well even 8 hours isn't a whole day"

When we went in May, it was. DCA was only open from 10 to 6. For most people, 8 hours in a park is a long time. True, when I was younger, I'd go for 12 to 16 hours, but those days are long passed.

"We hung out and waited and talked with some more guests and drank some beer then watched the electric light parade. it was cool because it was so intimate, it was right there a hands reach away and there was no crowd. But that was kind of a draw back, too, because it seemed sort of chintsy with no crowd. So you are right, it was probabaly more like 8 hours than 6 hours."

And it does seem like you pretty well hit all the bases. When I've gone, it hasn't been that crowded, either, but we haven't covered as much ground. I'm sure I could cover a lot more childless, but when kids insist on spending an hour at Redwood Trail or riding Mulholland Madness over and over, you usually go with the flow.

[Cris]

I have always thought that you should build everything on a "solid foundation". DCA is lacking that foundation.

[d-r]

I remembered that we also went over to disneyland for a while that Saturday, but it was so crowded we went back to dca.


What I wish they would do is take the gates out of disneyland and out of Ca. adventure, and put in new gates perpindicular to the ones now, one where the good neighbor hotel guests come in and one where the disneyland resort guests come in (at the end of downtown disney) and make the whole thing disneyland. Just one big fat park with one ticket.


I know that the thinking is that this would take away from the 2-park destination resort concept, but I think it would still be viewed as a 2-3 day destination if they billed it as one park that is so big that you can't do it only one day. It would spread the crowds around more, and they could make a lot of ads talking about how many things there are to do and how big it is. Ad in the tower of terror and rockin roller coaster and they could bill it is this super-sized park. I know they will never do it, but I think it would be the best fix.

DR

[Douglas Dubh]

"I live in Ohio and personally it is a great state to live in and a great place to visit. But I certainly would not want Ohio Adventure *yawn*. See what I am trying to say?"

Not really. Ohio is certainly a nice state, but it doesn't compare to California. California is America's most populous state and probably has its most diverse population. It's also probably the most diverse in geography - it's got mountains, deserts, farmland, coastline, and urban areas. Plus it's got widely varied commerce - high tech, farming & ranching, manufacturing, and most important for Disney, a major party of the entertainment industry. Compared to most states, California is a super state.

[HorizonsFan]

probably has its most diverse population. It's also probably the most diverse in geography - it's got mountains, deserts, farmland, coastline, and urban areas. Plus it's got widely varied commerce - high tech, farming & ranching, manufacturing,
Just reading the above quote, one might think you're talking about Texas! I wouldn't want to see "Texas Adventure" any more than I want to see California Adventure.
In my opinion, the theme is the source of many of the problems at DCA...

[Bob O]

8 hours is never enough time to spend in a park, unless the park has so little to do you become bored!!! The last thing disney should do is build a park that isnt a full day park from day one. The built Ak and DCA without the intent to provide a full days worth of activites but still charging full admission which basically mean they intentionally screwed their customers with the promise that we will make it into a full day park later. That is wrong and the attendance at the last 3 american parks paled in comparision to that of the new park in Japan. Hopefully disney will learn.
And i dont think making the park another version of mgm by just remaking their best attractions is the answer either. It may be cheaper but what ever became of being creative and creating something new???
I think it was idiotic to make a park about CA in that state when the majority of their customers are locals who can easily see the orginal and not the disney make believe version.

[roymccoy]

My wife said something the other day about DCA that I thought was right on the mark. She said that when she first went to DL in the 60's, the rides and areas didn't look like much on the outside but she was just blown away with what was on the inside. (The rides themselves). DCA is the exact opposite. It looks pretty good from the outside but it is kind of "gutless" on the inside. It's styling over substance. It's a pretty shoebox with cheap shoes on the inside or it's a Casio watch in a Rolex box. That may be what is confusing people about DCA. It kind of looks like a Disney park but it doesn't really feel like one.
The "new" Tommorowland at DL is another recent example of this. It looks really happening on the outside (especially at night) but there's not really anything there. Disney is becoming like the storefronts on Main Street USA...they're merely shells of what they appear to be.


Roy

[raidermatt]

If Disney had spent twice as much on DCA, and only drew twice the number of people, they would have been in much more trouble than they are now. Opening smaller and builder had worked for them in the past. If it was my money, I think I would have taken the more prudent course.

Its not all about how much money was spent. Its about knowing what your audience wants and delivering, even exceeding those expectations.

Unlike many around here, I'm perfectly fine with opening a park that is "incomplete". However, the foundation must be strong, and should be used as a foundation. Enhancements and additions should build from there, with adjustments made as necessary.

The bottom line is, the people have spoken. AK may not be what EVERYONE wanted, but it has been drawing about 8 million people per year. The foundation is there. Nobody is calling for a theme change. DCA drew 5 million last year (granted, not a full year), and it doesn't look like its going to do much better this year. It doesn't mean there aren't people who like the park, it just means there aren't enough to support that park as it currently stands.

While I think an American theme would be better than a California theme, that's hardly the heart of the matter. DCA just doesn't deliver enough Disney Magic to satisfy enough Disney fans, and it doesn't deliver enough pure thrills to satisfy the Six Flags crowd. Clearly SOMETHING needs to be done. So far, its mostly repricing, which has to be disturbing from a stockholder point of view.

ToT will probably have a significant impact, but is that enough to bring demand for the park to a point that prices can be "normalized" while still increasing attendance? Or are they just going to give-up and make it another section of DL?

Even if they did combine into one ticket, a la the current one-day hopper, how much could they increase the DL ticket price? $5? MAYBE $10? Ugh. The $59 one-day hopper maybe a test to see how many guests buy the hopper instead of the one-day DL ticket.

But since I'm an optomist, I still believe it is not too late to fix this...
I absolutely agree.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Unlike many around here, I'm perfectly fine with opening a park that is "incomplete". I love statements that I can completely agree with, and completely disagree with.

There are some good business reasons to offer a scaled-down product under some circumstances. From that perspective, I'm "fine" with offering such a product under such circumstances.

The problem in this case is that a scaled-down park is simply not the answer to the question "What can we sit beside Disneyland that will allow us to charge the same admission price as we do for Disneyland?"

From that point of view, under those circumstances, I think it was pretty stupid to open an "incomplete" park.

-WFH

[raidermatt]

"What can we sit beside Disneyland that will allow us to charge the same admission price as we do for Disneyland?"

From that point of view, under those circumstances, I think it was pretty stupid to open an "incomplete" park.

I think it could work IF they did the following:

1- Ensured that what was included on day 1 was Disney quality. Sort of like the response to AK that says its good, there just needs to be more of it. DCA generally doesn't even get that good of a response as it stands now.

2- Offered discounts from day 1, understanding that DCA just wasn't close to offering the breadth of entertainment DL does. If the ultimate goal was to eventually charge the same, then its difficult to make the front gate posted price anything lower than DL's. However, offer discounts to everyone you can, like DC members, DVC members, AP holders (both DL and WDW), resort guests, locals, etc. This effectively lowers the price, yet the discounts can be pulled back when #3 is executed...

3- Continue the build out with Disney quality attractions and areas.

By doing all of this, they are able to start their revenue stream sooner than they could have otherwise, can adjust on the fly as necessary, and still satisfy their fans who are looking for Disney Magic at a good value.

(They could still pursue this path, but it would require some attraction replacing and ego swallowing. And some cash.)

[Cris]

I was just using Ohio as an example, I don;t want to see any "state adventure". By limiting yourself to one state you really lose a lot of ideas.

[stlphil]

Putting an "incomplete" park in Disneyland's parking lot is a completely different proposition than making Animal Kingdom as an incomplete park.

First of all, DCA is only the second park on the site. The main reason for building the second park was to put Disneyland on the map as a destination Resort, with extended stays on site. This was an attempt to emulate the success of WDW.

It was the opening of EPCOT that really catapulted WDW into the "destination" category, with week and longer stays. This was made possible by creating EPCOT as a 1.5 to 2 day park, and even at opening it mostly lived up to this billing. I know many people are somewhat down on EPCOT, but without it the huge build-out of all the resort hotels never would have happened (at least not at nearly the pace we witnessed over the last 15+ years). Compare this to poor DCA, where you can do most everything in 6-7 hours (half a day, regardless of the number of hours the park is actually open), and which requires much less time than that on repeat visits to do the very few things that aren't in the been-there-done-that category. Not what it takes to make DL a destination resort. If AK (or MGM) is incomplete, well that's okay, because WDW was already a destination resort.

DCA also has the additional disadvantages of being in Disneyland's parking lot. It is so close to DL that it invites direct comparisons in ways totally unlike the widely scattered parks at WDW. When at DCA, DL is right there in-your-face. You can't escape the feeling that you should be across the way at DL instead of here at DCA.

And for the most part (until this recent announcement), you can't park hop because this was only available to APers and those with many-day tickets which expire (and as already pointed out, you don't need tickets for that many days at the DL resort). I don't mind if AK is not a full day park, as I am there on a park hopper and just hop to another park when I am done. I would never pay a full admission to AK, but that's okay because I don't have to. I had to pay a full admission to see DCA, but I would never do so again.

And DCA is not adjacent to just any park, it is adjacent to Disneyland, the flagship park which has the most attractions of any Disney park. Being sooo close to DL which has soooo much to do, makes DCA look even more sparse by comparison.

Finally, while it is a smaller matter, DL has a level of tradition that surpasses WDW. It has served an additional generation of guests as compared to WDW, most of whom are locals which make up the bulk of visitors and have a special fondness for the place. It is a slap in the face to these people to put in an inferior, incomplete product and charge full price for it.

[TheLionKing]

Remind me, how much is a one day park hopper ticket at WDW?

Is it less than this DLR one day park hopper?

IMHO, a true capitulation would have been to make the park hopper the same price as a Disneyland one day admission.

We don't seem to be there.......... YET!

[raidermatt]

Putting an "incomplete" park in Disneyland's parking lot is a completely different proposition than making Animal Kingdom as an incomplete park.

Of course, but nonetheless, the problem with DCA is not that it is incomplete. Complaints from guests are not that Paradise Pier is a wonderful, magical place. Its that it's not what was expected from Disney. Same with most of the rest of the park.

In contrast, AK complaints for the most part revolve more around adding more to what is already there. Nobody was clamoring for an entire land to be ripped out because its cheap. DR is an exception, but it is a change from the original park plans and is more equivalent to the attractions that have made-up DCA from day one.

It was the opening of EPCOT that really catapulted WDW into the "destination" category, with week and longer stays. This was made possible by creating EPCOT as a 1.5 to 2 day park, and even at opening it mostly lived up to this billing.

Absolutely true. And its true that a "complete" park built up to guest expectations would be the best case scenario. However, its also understandable that mgmt would want to mitigate risk by not building the entire park only to find out they were off-base. Excellent but incomplete would have done the job, as long as consistent steps were taken to make it complete. Maybe it only would have added 3/4 of a day to the average guests stay initially, but that is far better than its doing now, and within a year or two, it might just acheive the extra 1 or 2 days Disney is seeking.

Problem is, what is there is not considered excellent by guests. So even if the park were bigger, ie complete, it would still have major problems attracting guests.

[raidermatt]

Remind me, how much is a one day park hopper ticket at WDW?

I don't think WDW even sells a one-day hopper. I THINK the minimum is 4 days.

DL didn't want to sell a one-day hopper either...

IMHO, a true capitulation would have been to make the park hopper the same price as a Disneyland one day admission.
Yes, that would essentially make them one park, and maybe that will happen one day, but its not what Disney wanted. If they did that without raising the DL price, they would essentially be getting no return on their investment. (unless they significantly increased the number of tickets sold, but we already know that DCA does not sell tickets...)

[d-r]

Originally posted by stlphil

It was the opening of EPCOT that really catapulted WDW into the "destination" category, with week and longer stays. This was made possible by creating EPCOT as a 1.5 to 2 day park, and even at opening it mostly lived up to this billing. I know many people are somewhat down on EPCOT, but without it the huge build-out of all the resort hotels never would have happened (at least not at nearly the pace we witnessed over the last 15+ years).

I agree with you 100% the epcot moved wdw forward as being a 'destination,' but i just wanted to add a friendly reminder that even before then wdw promoted itself as a multi-day destination, with discovery island, activities at ft. wilderness (and i think river country, but my memory may be clowdy about the timing there), dinner shows at all the resorts (poly luau, top of the world at contemporary and the good ole hoop de do), ski shows on the lake, water sports, etc. they offered lots of three and four night packages when it was just magic kingdom, partnered with other attractions in fl like cypress gardens (the way disneyland still does with some so.cal. attractions), and even partnered with norwegian cruise lines to have a combined wdw stay and cruise (way before the big red boat). Honestly, I believe that the amount of space at wdw helped it to become a distination.

dr

[Bob O]

How can anybody justify building a incomplete park intentionally and charge full admission to that park????? For the people who often go to the parks it may not matter, but for people who go every couple of years why should they pay full price today for some type of vague promise the park will be completed in the future. They get ripped off so disney can start immediately to fleece their guests.

[raidermatt]

How can anybody justify building a incomplete park intentionally and charge full admission to that park?????

They can build whatever they want and charge whatever they want. In a free society, that's the justification.

Now, as to whether its BEST for Disney to do that, that's another question. Again, I said that if they do it, they have to ensure that what they do open is Disney quality, and they should offer plenty of discount opportunities.

The simple fact is that while its logical that you should charge less for a smaller park, the public will view price increases later much more negatively than they will a reduction in discount opportunities. Again, may not be logical, but its reality.

[Bob O]

Just because you can do something doesnt mean it is the right thing to do or a moral thing to do!!!! Just becuase something can be done that is legal doesnt mean it is the right thing to do or a smart business decision.

[Douglas Dubh]

"How can anybody justify building a incomplete park intentionally and charge full admission to that park?????"

How do you define incomplete? For me, DCA is complete, because I can go there one day a year and spend a whole day there and not be bored. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mind seeing them add more stuff, because it's always nicer to have more to choose from, and there's no question that they won't expand it. None of the Disney parks had as much stuff when they opened as they do today, it's the nature of parks to open and grow. I wouldn't want a park to have the same number of attractions 10 years from now as it did today.

I do think Disney should have introduced a two day hopper pass soon after the park opened; they were definitely overconfident.

[Douglas Dubh]

"Just reading the above quote, one might think you're talking about Texas!"

Texas certainly has a lot of people, a diverse population, and diverse geography, but it's still not in California's league

"I wouldn't want to see "Texas Adventure" any more than I want to see California Adventure."

Isn't at least one of the Six Flags parks located in Texas themed to Texas?

[airlarry!]

As Lord Baron's proxy, I feel I must respond in quotes: ;) I am sure he will enjoy sparring with you when he returns...

How do you define incomplete? For me, DCA is complete, because I can go there one day a year and spend a whole day there and not be bored.

You have just disagreed with the Braverman/Eisner philosophy. They would be disappointed in you, Monsieur Douglas. They *know* DCA was built as an incomplete park, they have said so themselves. It is the *new* style of park, let's call it the Eisner Plan, to build parks with as few attractions as can support the ticket. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but to argue that DCA is complete is to argue with Ei$ner himself. You aren't supposed to spend a whole day there...you were supposed to enjoy a few hours worth of attractions, then eat an expensive dinner at one of the leased restaurants, and then spend more time over at nightclubs in between Disneyland. You are ruining their strategy....

None of the Disney parks had as much stuff when they opened as they do today, it's the nature of parks to open and grow.

True? Perhaps. Please see the earlier debate ably led by Lord Baron where the differences in the Ei$ner Plan and the Walt Philosophy are explained. I'll use shorthand here...Epcot and Disneyseas are complete, stand-alone parks worth the price of admission at opening day. MGM was arguably not, and AK was unquestionably not, but both were on a resort property that encouraged the purchasing of discount, park-hopping tickets.

DCA was never intended to be a park hopper type of park. It was to be the reason to extend a vacation, a reason to purchase *additional* days or tickets, but somehow the Budgeteers prevailed.

Why can't we celebrate the achievements that Imagineering made with DCA, albeit few, or compliment the hard-working CMs at DCA who are dealing with a frustrated paying audience, without apologizing for the management that designed this place? DCA is a park stamped with the Disney brand. DisneySeas is a Disney park stamped with Disney imagination and magic. And never the twain shall meet....

[raidermatt]

They *know* DCA was built as an incomplete park, they have said so themselves. It is the *new* style of park, let's call it the Eisner Plan, to build parks with as few attractions as can support the ticket.

Ah, but its NOT supporting the ticket.... It seems they HOPED they had built enough to do what you describe, but they haven't even accomplished that. They did expect us to spend a full day there, they were just wrong.

Yes, their strategy is different than prior years, but what makes it worse is that they didn't even succeed in meeting their own goals.

Just because you can do something doesnt mean it is the right thing to do or a moral thing to do!!!! Just becuase something can be done that is legal doesnt mean it is the right thing to do or a smart business decision.

Moral? C'mon now. Businesses miss their target markets all the time. Its not good, but its not immoral. They truly thought they had built a park that would meet the expectations of their customers. They were wrong, and that's a problem. And yes, its bad business, which I've already said. But its not immoral. They do not have a moral obligation to build every park with as many attractions as DL anymore than any other company does.

For me, DCA is complete, because I can go there one day a year and spend a whole day there and not be bored.
That's fine. I'm sure there are more like you. Personally, I don't hate DCA, and we did have fun there when we went. I'm sure I'm in the upper half of opinions given by guests. However, the need to discount and lackluster attendance means that regardless of what you or I think personally, Disney blew it with this park. They are not even coming close to meeting the expectations of most of their customers, and that is a problem.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Isn't at least one of the Six Flags parks located in Texas themed to Texas? A Six Flags park "themed"? Surely, you jest. But back on topic. I personally can't pass judgement on DCA because I haven't been there yet. But I have heard both sides from friends and family members that have been. So I'm just leaving my decision up in the air until I go through the DCA gates.

[Figmentrocks]

I wanted to make a few points, but first of all mention that this is one of the best threads going in some time. You all make some absolutely excellent points.

With Animal Kingdom, the attention to detail in the buildings, signs, etc. is absolutely superb, of the quality that we've always expected from Disney. What was striking the first time my wife and I visited AK was the fact that there was simply not too much to do. I think that Dinosaur is a big-time disappointment. It's cool that it's the killer technology from Indy at Disneyland, but it lacks a lot.... mostly anything to look at, except for the creepy, loud carnatorus. :)

Disney built AK without enough to honestly do for a full day, although one could spend a full day walking and seeing the stage shows, but that's not what one pays about fifty bucks to see for the most part. They used the same angle as with DCA, "it's a different type of park". Well, that all reminds me of slim like lawyer talk. The fact of the matter is that they didn't build these parks with satisfying expectations.

AK suffers from a lack of attractions and a wealth of stage shows. AK has a beautiful look and nice atmosphere.

DCA suffers from a lack of quality, quality attractions, lack of lack of lacking. :)

Someone made the greatest point earlier, 45 Years after what would be considered the world's most wonderful theme park with all the ideas in the world (also in the midst of a massive economic boom), Disney builds DCA next door. How do you fix a park that is mainly constructed of sound stages and metal looking off the shelf rides... Close it and start again? :) Well, from an economic standpoint, that's not feasible. Maybe they can work on changing the theme. Work on section by section of the park slowly transforming it... Maybe one day it will simply be known as Disney's Adventure Theme Park... Hmm..

[Mouse Ears]

This has been an interesting thread.

Concerning Six Flags parks in Texas: Six Flags over Texas began as a park themed to the six different flags that flew over Texas (USA, Republic of Texas, Spain, Mexico, France, and the Confederacy - I think that's right). The theme has long since been abandoned. Six Flags Fiesta Texas in San Antonio was opened by Operyland and had great theming and shows in the beginning. Now that Six Flags has taken over, I'm sure the theming will be neglected.

I have heard many times about the limited scope of things at Animal Kingdom and there is some truth there, but it is large scale park with some of the best theming and atmosphere that Disney has ever done, IMHO. If they continue to fill in with some attractions, the potential for greatness is definitely there.

I have not been to DCA yet, and don't have any intention of planning a trip there. It just doesn't look that interesting and the reviews are consistently mediocre.

With that said, I think that the logic evaluating DCA's value at $14 could just as easily be used to say that Disneyland is worth $14. After all, that is the difference between an admission to DCA and an admission to DCA plus DL. Anyway, I think that $14 sounds like a pretty pricey upgrade to a single day ticket. After all, buying a hopper doesn't give you any more hours in the day. The bigger issue with this decision is that it seems to work against the goal of creating a longer stay at the resort and build hotel/food revenues.

[Grog]

Isn't at least one of the Six Flags parks located in Texas themed to Texas?


Yes it is. Six Flags Fiesta Texas in San Antonio. It was built before Six Flags aquired it, hence the fact that it actually has a theme. Also, it was themed to Texas, because San Antonio is the number one city in Texas as a tourist destination for people outside the state. I'm not sure about now, but it was built with the out of state visitor in mind.

Sorry for going OT

[Another Voice]

There seems to be a few viral strains that just don’t ever seem to die no matter what. I guess there are too many corporate spinners/true believers that hold on to them no matter what…

First, all Disney parks were built complete. This “they’ve always built them small than expanded” is a rather deliberate corporate lie put out to cover the problems with Animal Kingdom and California Adventure. All of the pre-Eisner parks were built and designed to be at least full day attractions from the outset. Even the Disney/MGM Studios was built complete to what Disney expected the attendance to be (they misjudged both the popularity of a studio tour and the impact of park hopping). The plans for the park did not make any allowance for expansion at all and the park’s confines remain a problem though today.

California Adventure was also “built complete” from Day One. There were no expansion plans for the first five years of the park’s operation. None – they figured the value of the Disney Brand would be some alluring to the locals that they project half a decade of profits before they had to hire the first bulldozer.

But the budget cut backs hit so hard and so early that many people at Disneyland & WDI got nervous and cooked up schemes to save the coming problems. Almost everyone in the company understood that DCA was a sub-quality park when construction began; the argument was over what to do about it. Plans included a retheming to “America”, a make-over into a movie studio and others. The one that was pushed as the cheapest and most management-ego friendly was to clone the ‘Armageddon’ and ‘Rock-n-Rollercoaster’ attractions from Disney Studios Paris (cheaper to build to at the same time) and slap them into DCA as quickly as possible.

And at the grand opening of DCA you could see all the Disney people running through the crowd telling people about the plan. It was an effort both to counteract the immense disappointment in the park and to bolster the plans through Disney’s tight-fisted management.

Unfortunately the attendance at the park is dramatically below even the worst case scenarios drafted by Disney’s most harsh critics. Within a month of the first guest there was no money for any kind of expansion. Things continued to get worse and worse and worse. Disney did what it does best these days and hacked the operations of the park. While that slowed the losses for a while, the situation continues to deteriorate.

By last fall they had no choice but to do something and a comprise plan was put together. The budget version ‘Tower of Terror’ clone was approved for construction at the same time as the one for Paris and WDI was allowed to purchase additional carnival rides (yes, they really are purchased from a carnival supply company) and theme them for Flik’s.

In the meantime, DCA continues to worsen. The one-day park hopper (according to rumor) was pushed through by Disneyland’s management only because Pressler is too busy packing up his office. The ticket truly is a last gasp, stop gap measure for the summer. Most rumors seem to agree that Burbank is frantically trying to distances themselves from DCA and that Disneyland is being given more leeway to run the place. That also means that WDI will have a much stronger role in the park than they’ve previously had (although very few true-WDI people are left).

The future of DCA will be decided sometime in the Fall after the impact of Flik’s Fun Fair can be judged (most people expect none at all).


Oh and the second strain, that “those stupid, foolish, spendthrift, money throwing Japanese” line – just another corporate lie to cover all those ego’s again. There’s no basis in fact for that excuse about the success of DisneySea and the failure of California Adventure.

[raidermatt]

I think that the logic evaluating DCA's value at $14 could just as easily be used to say that Disneyland is worth $14.
The only problem with reversing the logic is that DL will draw 40k on a given day, while DCA will draw 13k on that same day, even with discounts given to locals. Clearly the public values DL at $45. Disney has not yet figured out at what price the public values DCA. Discounted adult tickets and free kids wasn't low enough.

California Adventure was also “built complete” from Day One.
This is what I was clumsily trying to say previously. There's a difference between "incomplete" and just bad.

Thanks for the insight, AV.

Letting DL/WDI have more control over DCA seems to me to be a step in the right direction.

[Douglas Dubh]

They *know* DCA was built as an incomplete park, they have said so themselves.

I've read a lot about DCA, during construction and since opening, and I don't believe I've ever seen a Disney management say they built it incomplete.

DCA was never intended to be a park hopper type of park. It was to be the reason to extend a vacation, a reason to purchase *additional* days or tickets, but somehow the Budgeteers prevailed.

I don't see the difference between "a park hopper type of park" and "a reason to purchase additional days or tickets". It has certainly led me to extend my stay on resort, staying at the Disneyland Hotel and eating at restaraunts in Downtown Disney.

It seems they HOPED they had built enough to do what you describe, but they haven't even accomplished that. They did expect us to spend a full day there, they were just wrong.

A lot of people do spend a whole day there, just not enough. I've already agreed that they overestimated the draw of the park, and they were slow to admit it. I think they should have offered shorter length park hopper passes much earlier than they did, and I don't think to this day they've offered a two day hopper to the general audience. But DCA at opening day is at least as good as the Florida Studios was at opening day. The economy will improve, DCA will improve, and attendence will improve. It does not need a new theme.

AK suffers from a lack of attractions and a wealth of stage shows. AK has a beautiful look and nice atmosphere. DCA suffers from a lack of quality, quality attractions, lack of lack of lacking.

Although DCA does not have as nice of theming as AK, it has a lot more attractions.

I have not been to DCA yet, and don't have any intention of planning a trip there. It just doesn't look that interesting and the reviews are consistently mediocre.

Don't go for DCA. Go for Disneyland, the original and best Disney theme park. And while you're visiting, spend a little time at DCA; you might be pleasantly surprised.

There’s no basis in fact for that excuse about the success of DisneySea and the failure of California Adventure.

Once again, if you're going to compare DisneySea to DCA, factor in Universal Osaka. It didn't cost nearly as much as DisneySea, but it's packing them in. The Japanese market is clearly different than the American.

[TiggerFreak]

AV,

The clarity of your disorganized musings leaves me in wait of your more structured thoughts;)

[Another Voice]

“The Japanese market is clearly different than the American.”

Well yes, that public was given a park worth visiting; the market in California was given the Kern County Fair minus the petting zoo.

Actually, Universal Japan shows up the failings of California Adventure once again. While UJ is filled with clones from Universal’s American parks, it is also the only studio tour park in the country. The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too – Japan is the largest overseas market for American movies. New shows in an interesting theme mean good business.

California Adventure, however, is a blend of recycle WDW films (none of which have tremendous repeat value) and carnival rides that are duplicated in a dozen parks within a 90 minute drive of the place. The current Orange County fair is running their own Sun Wheel (complete with neon lights). There is only one attraction that is somewhat unique (‘Soaring Over California’) but the rest have been done much better at Knott’s or Six Flags or even Sea World. And for the theme, it comes off as an excuse for the rides rather than any attempt to capture the “mystique” of California (no one thinks 'California beach' and conjures up a mental image of an amusement park merry-go-round). There is absolutely nothing in the park that is anything other than a cheapened version of what’s available for real. Why would anyone pay $45 to sit by a phony ocean lagoon when the real thing is twenty minutes away and for free? There is simply no draw for the local market.

I used to think that all the efforts to discredit DisneySea were rather amusing; just another case of sour grapes from people who should know better. But it’s becoming very clear that too many people in Disney has decided that it’s much easier to make excuses for California Adventure rather than take the effort to fix the problem. A similar mindset of “don’t worry, it will fix itself” set in the early days of Euro Disney as well. It’s to all our good fortunes that a few smart people stepped into the situation and corrected the problems before they got any worse. I just don’t see that happening with DCA.

No doubt next summer when DCA is free add-on to a standard Disneyland ticket that we’ll still be hearing excuses.

[Cris]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Although DCA does not have as nice of theming as AK, it has a lot more attractions. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't consider the rides at paradise pier to be "attractions". And now superstar limo and millionaire are close.

So lets see

-Disney Animations
-Muppets 4D
-Soarin over Cali
-Tough to be a Bug
-Grizzly River Run
-Redwood Creek Trail (play area)
-Bread/Tortilla Factory :rolleyes:
-Golden Dreams
-Season's of the Vine :rolleyes:
-King Triton's Carousel (cute)

Cali Scream though fun, the only thing disney about it is the mickey they plastered on it.

The rest of of Paradise Pier, uh no!

[Douglas Dubh]

California Adventure, however, is a blend of recycle WDW films (none of which have tremendous repeat value) and carnival rides that are duplicated in a dozen parks within a 90 minute drive of the place.

This is an argument against the execution of the theme, and not the theme itself. There are, of course, only two recycled WDW films (now that Return to Neverland is gone).

While UJ is filled with clones from Universal’s American parks, it is also the only studio tour park in the country. The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too – Japan is the largest overseas market for American movies.

These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

The current Orange County fair is running their own Sun Wheel (complete with neon lights).

Is it as tall? Does it have the swinging cars? Is it adjacent to a lagoon?

There is only one attraction that is somewhat unique (‘Soaring Over California’) but the rest have been done much better at Knott’s or Six Flags or even Sea World.

I've been on the raft rides at Knott's, Six Flags, and Sea World. GRR is superior to them all. Screaming beats all their roller coasters for me, hands down. It's fast, smooth, long, has a cool sound track, and is launched.

I used to think that all the efforts to discredit DisneySea were rather amusing; just another case of sour grapes from people who should know better.

Who is discrediting DisneySea? What's annoying is that people who should know better are trying to use DisneySea's success to brand DCA's theme a failure. The problem isn't the theme.

I don't consider the rides at paradise pier to be "attractions".

I do, just as I consider the Rocket Jets or the teacups to be attractions.

[Cris]

These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company

The only reason I have seen DCA was because I was in Anaheim for business. I would have never made a special trip to the other coast to see it. There is nothing new and innovative except maybe "Soarin". I have not visited Tokyo yet, though I have never had any desire before to go to Japan. I am going to try to swing a trip there in the near future just to visit The Tokyo Disney Resort.

Is it as tall? Does it have the swinging cars? Is it adjacent to a lagoon?

Bigger isn't always better ;) And I can go ride one beside an ocean. So I don't really think that is makes it anything special.

I've been on the raft rides at Knott's, Six Flags, and Sea World. GRR is superior to them all. Screaming beats all their roller coasters for me, hands down. It's fast, smooth, long, has a cool sound track, and is launched.


GRR I do really like. Though the water raft ride at Silver Dollar city in Branson is a lot of fun as well. These kind of rides are my favorites, and I wish Disney would make a very long one, they really messed up with Kali River Rapids.

[lrodk]

There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

Douglas, DisneySeas is "THE" premier theme park in the world, marking new standards in theme park design and consisting entirely of unique rides not found anywhere else. To suggest that we would need proof that this park would be any better for the company than DCA is simply mind boggling. For anyone who hasn't read anything or seen pictures specifically about DS, I suggest that you visit the links posted below to see what sets this place apart. After studying the layout and attractions, I defy anyone(who has visited DCA that is) to come back and say that they would much rather visit DCA. DCA may be a nice park for some, but DS is in a league of it's own. There's simply no comparison.

As far as it being better for the company, well, DS would have cost them roughly $3 billion(which is what it cost to build in japan), while DCA cost a shade over $1 billion. You're talking about the potential for more than two or three times the attendance they're getting right now at DCA, and that's being very conservative. So yes, for a little more than double what they've spent already and have been spending lately(and will no doubt continue to spend in the future) to make the place right, they could have had something that would have been talked about all over the world, something extremely special and unique. Rather than charging $14/day for DCA, they'd be pulling in $50/ticket instead. The differences in revenue would be astronomical.

I was really excited when they announced plans to build Westcot in Anaheim(I still have the plans for that park from the preview center), less excited but still optimistic when they revised the plans for DCA, and mortified when those plans became a reality . If it hadn't been for the Fox Family deal, which is not nearly the cash cow that a succesful year-round theme park would be, we may have had that park after all.Quite simply, Disney flat out Goofed on this one. With that said, I'm convinced that current management has no clue what is best for the company.

Laughing Place has some great pics and descriptions of the park, while Barry's site has Quicktime videos of many of the attractions.


http://www.laughingplace.com/Info-ID-Features-TokyoUpdates.asp

www.barrybedford.com

[raidermatt]

AV said:
The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too

Douglas replied:
These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

Well, there IS proof that DCA would have been fresh and new to Americans if it were sitting next to DL. Just look at it. There's nothing else like it here. The closest thing would be DL, but of course, Disney Seas already sits next to Tokyo DL, and that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Of course its impossible to PROVE the business case. However, given the fact that DCA is posting such poor attendance numbers, even with discounting, the evidence that Disney Seas would have been a better decision is pretty compelling.

[Another Voice]

What’s even more amusing is that most of the elements in DisneySea were designed by WDI for American parks. The genesis of DisneySea was the Port Disney complex in Long Beach and many a painting of the place featured Nemo’s volcano smoldering over the Little Mermaid’s Lagoon. Some aspects of the Long Beach design were dropped for weather reasons (Tokyo Bay isn’t quite Southern California) while some aspects of the American park were so good that we’re recreated in Tokyo. The steam liner in the American Harbor section of DisneySea is a lift of the R.M.S. Queen Mary which would have played a significant role in Port Disney.

On the other comments, I don’t think anyone is using the success of DisneySea to brand California Adventure a failure. I think the panicked additions, closed areas, budget cuts, unprecedented discounts, cancelled plans, sponsor bail-outs and overall corporate whining has pretty much painted DCA’s level of success. While Tokyo is putting out press releases announcing the substantial attendance numbers, Burbank is reduced to having their marketing interns create spin-filled websites and manipulating Internet discussion groups.

It’s almost as sad as trying to defend DCA by with “it's a bigger Ferris wheel” or “it’s a longer raft ride” lines. Disneyland was and is a place known for innovations, imagination and unparalleled showmanship. Yet the park in its parking lot’s biggest attempt at greatness comes from trying to be marginally better than Six Flags. Having a longer launched roller coaster than Knott’s Berry Farm is just not the same as saying Disneyland has ‘Indiana Jones’ and no one else does.

Lastly, I guess the ultimate “business proof” of the decision to build California Adventure is probably summed up by the fact that Disney would have made more money if they had left the parking lot in place instead of building DCA.

[LAinSEA]

Yes, it's worth $14 - $4 each for Soarin, the coaster and Grizzly's water drenching, $2 for a re-run of Tough to be a Bug.

Was it worth the So. Cal. college discount ticket price (in Oct. 2001)? Hmmm, maybe - since there were absolutely NO LINES on a Sunday (but they cut hours and that was the weekend Puck cancelled Avalon Cove's sponsorship - we'd looked forward to trying it and ate at Mondavi's instead and now that is gone too.)

It is not worth full-price DL admission!

How to make that way? (my 2 cents):

Keep the California theme

build a proper out-door theatre with shaded seating...use it for music series, Blast!, or something similar to Pageant of the Masters in Laguna Beach.

Replace the "carnival" style rides with something that actually puts a breeze through your hair.

Add to the animation/studios section - tower of terror (on it's way) and rock'n roller coaster (not necessarily Aerosmith) for a start.

Add another simulator type ride (like Star Tours) that takes people 4-wheeling through death valley, under water diving by Catalina or Monteray Bay (sp?)....

How about a log flume style ride that diverts off the mill and into the mine?

but please do something...as is it's pretty to look at and great for pictures but there is no substance.

-LA

[Douglas Dubh]

Douglas, DisneySeas is "THE" premier theme park in the world, marking new standards in theme park design and consisting entirely of unique rides not found anywhere else.

I never said it wasn't.

To suggest that we would need proof that this park would be any better for the company than DCA is simply mind boggling.

Not really. You admit that it cost almost 3 times as much to build. If they had built it in Anaheim it probably would have cost less because they wouldn't have had to infill the bay, and it would have to be smaller so it would fit in the parking lot, so let's say it would have cost them double. What if it only drew twice as many people as DCA? There's no way it would have rivaled Disneyland in the amount of rides it has, and one of the reasons DisneySea looks good is because Tokyo Disneyland has significantly less attractions than the original DL has, so all of the arguments about value for your money would still have applied.

If it hadn't been for the Fox Family deal, which is not nearly the cash cow that a succesful year-round theme park would be, we may have had that park after all.

I believe DCA was already opened when the Fox Family deal was announced, so I doubt there's any link at all.

It’s almost as sad as trying to defend DCA by with “it's a bigger Ferris wheel” or “it’s a longer raft ride” lines.

But not as sad as trying to knock DCA by comparing it to a County fair. I've been to Knott's, I've been to Magic Mountain, I've been to county fairs. I'd much rather spend a day at DCA then any of those places.

Lastly, I guess the ultimate “business proof” of the decision to build California Adventure is probably summed up by the fact that Disney would have made more money if they had left the parking lot in place instead of building DCA.

Maybe last year, maybe this year, but not ultimately. DCA will improve, the economy will improve, and attendence will improve. DCA does not need a new theme - what it needs are a few good attractions.

[Another Voice]

DCA will improve, the economy will improve, and attendance will improve….

No, it won’t.

That’s already been proven by the post-9/11 recovery that Disneyland has experienced and that DCA has not. And both Knott’s and Sea World are also reporting higher attendance while DCA has continued to slip. With such a substantial local population base, the overall economy does not impact Disneyland the same way it does a touritst destination like Vegas or WDW. And even in the post-9/11 world where people are staying closer to home, common wisdom would have said that millions of Californians would have “played it safe” by seeing a brand new park that’s in town rather than fly off to Hawaii or Mexico. Yet, the all stayed away from DCA.

The problems at DCA will continue until someone has the guts to address them. It will not be pleasant and it will not be easy. But until someone fixes the places, rather than simply wish that time or the theme park fairy will, DCA will continue to hurt both Disneyland and WDW. A reason why most of the plans for Florida have been cancelled is directly due to California Adventure. The corporate goal is to keep income from Attractions up – ‘Beastly Kingdom’ was in part sacrificed to offset the losses from DCA.

As for DisneySea, the total construction cost also included a large indoor retail center (much larger than Downtown Disney Anaheim), new hotels, a monorail and road system, infrastructure support and rebuilding the rail station. And it was all done on landfill.

The problem with DCA is more in how the money was spent than how much was put into the park. The original budget would have given us just more elaborate bad things (like a carousel version of the Whoopie movie) rather than good attractions – with the possible exception of fleshing out ‘Soaring’ into the show that it should have been. The park was flawed at the inception stage. It will take a major re-building effort to correct that.

[raidermatt]

I've been to Knott's, I've been to Magic Mountain, I've been to county fairs. I'd much rather spend a day at DCA then any of those places.

That's great for you, but apparently, there are very few who agree. That's why Disney is offering HUGE discounts from the original price plan, and still bringing in only fraction of the original expected attendance. Do the math, and it equals a serious problem. Neither DL, nor the other SoCal parks are experiencing issues of that magnitude, so blaming the economy is merely diverting attention from the fact that some bad decisions were made. (I'm not into placing blame, only taking responsibility, learning from mistakes, and doing what it takes to make things right. If somone chooses not to do those things, well, then I can throw the "blame" dart as well as anyone)

Disney's customers have spoken with regard to DCA, and the message is undeniable.

Perhaps an arguement can be made that there shouldn't have been a park built at all (I disagree), but there's just no way DCA can be called a success.

[Douglas Dubh]

"The problems at DCA will continue until someone has the guts to address them. It will not be pleasant and it will not be easy."

Like I said, it needs some more good attractions. And it needed to be made more affordable to families, through hopper passes of shorter length. A two-day hopper is what they should have introduced, but last I heard, that was only available to So. Cal. residents.

"The problem with DCA is more in how the money was spent than how much was put into the park."

No argument there. I really don't believe that Paradise Pier was introduced as a money saving element. I think it's there because of Eisner's nostalgia for his boyhood days at Coney Island. If it was my call, would I have included it? No, but it's not that bad, and it wasn't all that cheap.

"The original budget would have given us just more elaborate bad things (like a carousel version of the Whoopie movie) rather than good attractions – with the possible exception of fleshing out ‘Soaring’ into the show that it should have been. The park was flawed at the inception stage."

I think the execution of the theme could have been done better. But I don't think the theme is the problem, and retheming the park is not the answer to DCA's problems.

[Another Voice]

I too think the California theme could have worked, but it would have taken a lot more imagination and effort then Disney put into DCA. But getting the theme to work now would require ripping out most of the attractions (because they don’t support the theme and because they do not appeal to the local market). Paradise Pier really nothing but a bone thrown to Eisner; he’s shoved a Coney Island area into every project for the last fifteen years: everything from the original WDW Boardwalk to Disney/MGM Studios Backlot in Burbank and even floated the idea that DisneySea should have it instead of Cape Cod. It’s always been included as just a very cheap way to increase the attraction count.

Disney is unwilling to put in the capital now required to either make the California theme work or to develop a coherent park. Yes, the place does need more good attractions but those are unlikely to happen. Now Anaheim is stuck with a place that doesn’t work as a theme park and is trying to figuring out how to make money from the white elephant in the parking lot.

“Making the place more affordable” is really just another way of saying that DCA is not a full ticket park. The recent introduction of the one-day park hopper (where DCA is a $14 add-on to Disneyland) is the first step towards one of two likely scenarios now.

One is the “Super-Park” plan in which DCA would cease to exist as a separate gate. It would be rolled into Disneyland as three additional “lands”. Rumors say the one-day hopper is being used as a test for the public’s reaction to the price Disney would want to charge for the expanded park.

The other is the “Super-Downtown” plan that would emphasize entertainment, dining and shopping. There would be no admission ticket; the remaining rides would be individually ticketed. This plan faces a significant uphill battle because it would be the biggest slap at corporate egos about the whole Disneyland Resort concept and because Disney’s relations with potential store & restaurant owners is so bad right now they would have a very difficult time finding tenants.

[larry_poppins]

I am all for the Super-Park plan. Current management does not have the talent, ambition, or confidence to fix DCA and create a compelling park that can compete with DL and the many other gated attractions in So Cal.

Nothing has been added to Disneyland in years. DCA for those who go there is a very pleasant experience. It will only be better once Tower of Terror 2.0 open. I think many locals will pay for a higher DL ticket that allows park hopping. It might even lead to increased annual pass sales. Lately, Disneyland management can agree on only one thing - SELL ANNUAL PASSPORTS!

Larry Poppins

[King Triton]

Disney made a big mistake building DCA. If we had DisneySea there instead, I guarantee you would see attendence go through the roof! I can't believe the quality invested in DisneySea and at the same time so little invested in DCA. I'm a big disney fan and I have no interest seeing DCA.

I think Disney needs to change the theme and start from scratch. Blow it up and build a new park. :p

King Triton

[Cris]

blow it up indeed!! hehe ;)

[Douglas Dubh]

But getting the theme to work now would require ripping out most of the attractions (because they don’t support the theme and because they do not appeal to the local market).

Nonsense. It just needs some more, good, family style California themed attractions.

It’s always been included as just a very cheap way to increase the attraction count.

I disagree, as I've already stated, and I doubt you can prove your contention.

“Making the place more affordable” is really just another way of saying that DCA is not a full ticket park.

So IOA is not a full ticket park, since Universal sells a two day hopper in Orlando? I think not.

If we had DisneySea there instead, I guarantee you would see attendence go through the roof!

That's not something you can guarantee. It could be they could have spent twice as much and only gotten twice the attendence, and been in a worse mess than they are now.

[AKemel]

I have been to both DL and WDW.

There is a great difference between the two places. Florida parks have great number of shows; while California is much more ride intensive. When some people describe DCA as a half-day park, if the lines are short the same would apply to DL. If a ride takes 10 min, than 20 rides will fill only half a day.

WDW and DL have very different feel, and since I do not enjoy self-induction of vomiting, I can’t wait till my next trip to WDW.

[airlarry!]

Boy have I enjoyed reading these posts. Douglas, you have reminded me how much all of us love Disney the Innovator not Disney the Stock Price Generator.

Would a quick poll help? Would that convince you? It seems that your biggest bone of contention is that you don't think that substituting Disney Seas for DCA in Anaheim would make a bit of a difference. Right?

Someone start a poll...If Disney Seas were in Anaheim instead of DCA, would you:

A. Be Much more likely to go to the new Disneyland Resort
B. Be more likely to go
C. About the same
D. Be less likely
E. Be much less likely...

I know I would vote A.

[daannzzz]

I have been to DCA three times now, always on a three -4 day park hopper and that is fine. I would also pay $14 to hop over there on one day because I have been to Disneyland so many times but I wouldn't recommend any first timer to do a one day park hopper if they were there for only one day. I would recommend they go for two days and get a one day pass to Disneyland the first day and then a one day park hopper the second.
There are alot of people who seem to think that if Disneya Sea had been built that it wouldn't have made much difference. Some how I think they are just wrong, wrong, wrong. I know I would have been there more times than 3 and have spent longer periods there. I am plannin on going to Tokyo to see that park.
Now maybe Disney wouldn't have made back the money quite as fast since it would have cost twice as much but then again maybe it would have as compared to what DCA is doing for them now. I don't think for one minute that people would be unaware of the park if the Journey to the center of the Earth Volcanoe, and Medetaeranian Harbor had popped up in adds in the papaer, magazines and on TV as opposed to a white coaster a raft ride and people hanging from a chair lift.
My brother and sister-in-law went to DCA and said they won't be going back for a long time. My sister happened to be in the LA area for a convention and went to DCA on opening day. My other sister saw DCA a couple of months before it opened, from our room at the Paradise Pier hotel and said she doesn't care if she goes. All these people are medium Disney fans and most of them have spent the money to go to WDW and would like to return there. People I work with are not excited about the place or don't know about it. My boss just got back from a Disneyland resort trip and she really liked DCA and couldn't understand why so many people were dissapointed. I told her that mostly they wouldn't pay full price for a one day ticket. When I told her a one day ticket was $45 she laughed and said she would never pay that for it.
Are all these people wrong?

[Another Voice]

Nonsense. It just needs some more, good, family style California themed attractions.
So where are they? We’ve had marching bands, we’ve had Disneyland’s old parade, we’ve had projected Christmas cards, and we’ve had a WDW clone about a cancelled TV show filmed in New York. Good, family style California themed attractions?

Now we're getting traveling carnival rides nicely decorated as bugs. Yes, there are bugs in California. There are bugs in Saskatoon, Walla Walla, and Timbuktu as well. That hardly qualifies the attractions as “California themed”. And since it’s unlikely they will accommodate anyone over six feet, they’re not much of a family attraction either.

And ‘Tower of Terror’ started at DCA life as a clone of the NEW YORK themed ‘Tower of Terror’ from DisneySeas. Again – uniquely California themed? And a family attraction?


So IOA is not a full ticket park, since Universal sells a two day hopper in Orlando? I think not.
No, selling a two-day park hopper is a different matter than selling a one-day park hopper with a 67% discount on the second park. It’s a different matter than running a second summer of one-day tickets that at a 34%. It’s even a different matter than selling a children’s ticket for absolutely nothing. Disney tried to sell a two-day park hopper. It failed because no one is going to pay full price for California Adventure. Disney’s even giving DCA away for free on it’s annual passes. If that isn’t a sure sign when even the most ardent Disney-fans won't pay for the place, then nothing is.


…and I doubt you can prove your contention
Ya wanta read the memos?


That's not something you can guarantee…
Because there are no guarantees in show buinsess. Everything is a risk. California Adventure is a park built by people unsure about their skills and untrusting of their audience. “There’s no guarantee” is a coward’s answer.

There is no joy in DCA, just a fear of failure papered over by walls of profit margin calculations. It’s the defensiveness of DCA when compared to the joy of creating at DisneySea which so sharply marks the contrast between the two. DCA isn't lacking DisneySea’s rides so much as it’s missing the other's spirit.

If Disney doesn’t have the talent or the stomach for the business, they should leave and make room for the people who have the drive to do what’s right.

[Douglas Dubh]

So where are they?

Wish I knew. But I do know retheming is not the answer to the park's woes - adding good rides is.

No, selling a two-day park hopper is a different matter than selling a one-day park hopper with a 67% discount on the second park.

Yes, a one-day hopper is not nearly as good of a bargain.

Disney tried to sell a two-day park hopper.

When did they do that? And was it available to everyone, or just So cal residents?

Ya wanta read the memos?

Yes, I would.

California Adventure is a park built by people unsure about their skills and untrusting of their audience. . . If Disney doesn’t have the talent or the stomach for the business, they should leave and make room for the people who have the drive to do what’s right.

Then the problem is much, much deeper than a simple retheming. You're talking about a massive overhaul of upper management. That's very unlikely.

[Bob O]

The whole idea of putting a park based on CA in that state was dumb to begin with and now its too late to change it and i dont think adding cloned attractions from wdw will be the parks salvation. Now maybe adding some rides to the park that beat out Spiderman at IOA might help but more clones wont IMHO.
And a overhaul of upper management may be possible as the stock price of the company goes furthur into the tank!!!

[King Triton]

No one wants to see a California theme park in California. People go to Disney for the magic and imagination. Who in the hell wants to see Californians make tortillas right in front of you for entertainment?:rolleyes: Who wants to see a movie exhibit about California lifestyle?? (This is another example how Disney rather save money than build another good ride - movies are cheaper.) Is that boring or what?? People go to Disney to see high quality rides - a magical journey.

Do you want to see how much better DisneySea is compared to DCA? Go to: www.barrybedford.com

The difference in quality will blow you away!:bounce: :bounce:

Yes, Disney should have built a DisneySea there instead of DCA. I'll say it again....that would send attendence through the roof. "If you build it, they will come." ;)

Oh God...if only Walt were still around.

King Triton

[Mr D]

Our family usually plans year round for our annual winter escape to either WDW or DL alternating each year, last winter we spent two weeks in Orlando, this year we are staying home in Alaska because I feel strongly that DCA has taken so much away from DL proper that it has now become less interesting in quality to us.


There is however Tokyo DisneySea......;)

[d-r]

Originally posted by Cris


[I]I've been on the raft rides at Knott's, Six Flags, and Sea World. GRR is superior to them all. Screaming beats all their roller coasters for me, hands down. It's fast, smooth, long, has a cool sound track, and is launched.


GRR I do really like. Though the water raft ride at Silver Dollar city in Branson is a lot of fun as well. These kind of rides are my favorites, and I wish Disney would make a very long one, they really messed up with Kali River Rapids.

I just wanted to say that I agree - the GRR is a whole lot better than Kali river. The only other raft ride I've been on is 6 flags Ga., and GRR is better - I'm really satisfied that GRR is a very nice ride and well-themed. I wish Kali was as good as GRR.

DR

[Another Voice]

But I do know retheming is not the answer to the park's woes.
Well the hip and edgy California theme was dumped on the park’s third day and they’ve never looked back. Gone is the hip, gone is the edgy, and gone is California. All we’ve got left is a slab of concrete for more traveling carnival rides. I hope simply stuffing rides into a place is not considered “Disney Design”. At the moment the place has a name, but no theme. That needs to change one way or the other.


Yes, a one-day hopper is not nearly as good of a bargain.
You’re right. It’s not a bargain for Disney, it’s a flat out financial disaster. Since 70% of the guests visit Disneyland only for the day, the one-day park hopper is the knife into the heart of the “resort” concept so lauded on all those PowerPoint presentations. There is no reason for locals or anyone else to spend multiple days on property. It’s a killer to DCA’s food and merchandise sales as well – people are going back to D/L to eat and for shopping. Even the premier merchandise location at the entrance to DCA doesn’t sell DCA-themed merchandise anymore, it’s selling Disneyland tee-shirts and mugs.


When did they do that? And was it available to everyone, or just So cal residents?
There have been so many ticket schemes at DCA that it makes buying an airline ticket seem easy. The two-day hopper was started last summer (for $79 I think). At first it was only for hotel guests than was sold to the general public. Then they offered the two-ticket plan. Then it was the 3-Day Hopper for the price of 2 days. Then it was get-a-day-free on all hoppers. Even now you can buy a three-day adult park hopper for the price of two-admissions. And kids are free even if they live out of state. Even the cast members who are selling the tickets can no longer keep track of which deals are currently ongoing.


Ya wanta read the memos?
As to not get anyone in trouble (since the Mouse Cops seem to lurking these days), how about a quote – “utilizing proven, off-the-shelf industry rides and show like sets to replace replications of period themed architecture…meets the challenge of providing customers with the nine attraction/retail/dining experience goal.”


You're talking about a massive overhaul of upper management.
There are already people working on that. I just wish they hurry a bit before more damage is done.

[airlarry!]

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that 'quotation.' I know a certain Chicagoan who would give up a Sosa 66 homer ball right now to read that memo...but he's preparing his annual Address right about now.

And Scoop we agree on something ;) ;) but wouldn't you also like to know what AV's post was before Sarangel edited it? ;) ;)

There are already people working on that. I just wish they hurry a bit before more damage is done.

Damage? What damage? Ei$ner himself is 'reading scripts and visiting with people' right now! Won't be long before he turns this ship around. Not.

Reminds me of my favorite line from Band of Brothers:

"Eisner and his cronies have us completely surrounded -- the poor *#$&@$&#!"

[lrodk]

There are already people working on that. I just wish they hurry a bit before more damage is done.

Mark my words, it's gonna get a whole lot uglier before things get better. My feeling is that I wish things would unravel a whole lot sooner so as to spare us from the long and painful drama that will no doubt play out over the next year or so. Like the stock market, we need a decisive thrust downward to mark a point where things just can't get much worse. With new management in place, and a slate wiped clean, there will only be one direction to move in(up). At that point anything they do will be positive compared to their predecessors. Then, and only then, will we begin to see light at the end of the tunnel.

[Douglas Dubh]

Gone is the hip, gone is the edgy, and gone is California.

It's not as prominent, but it's still there. And the most recent additions have been and will be very loosely themed to California, but that trend need not continue.

Even the premier merchandise location at the entrance to DCA doesn’t sell DCA-themed merchandise anymore, it’s selling Disneyland tee-shirts and mugs.

It did when I was there in May.

Even now you can buy a three-day adult park hopper for the price of two-admissions

Maybe that's why DL is doing fairly good business, even while the market is recovering.

In any event, it the park doesn't have a strong commitment of support by senior management, the theme is irrelevant. If management is willing to put in some good attractions, the park will improve, regardless of the theme. Retheming is not the answer to the park's woes.

[Another Voice]

The board also has also Roy Disney’s long term business partner and the guy that hired Eisner in the first place (Stanley Gold), the editor of a Spanish language newspaper where Disney buys substantial ad space, a bunch of ex-Disney executives had Eisner hired in the first place, and Sidney Poiter (a great actor, but someone who can oversee a multi-billion dollar media empire?). It will be interesting to see what happens to this group when the wave of board reforms starts. There are rumors that even the New York Stock Exchange itself is going to demand changes because Disney’s board is far too “inside” for them.

Back to DCA – Disneyland proper was doing very well without the discounts. All of the ticketing schemes are just attempts to siphon off some of the D/L traffic into the parking lot carnival.

Mr. Dubh, you are correct – management has no commitment to the park. It’s a problem that’s being dumped onto those that will come after the breakup. Hopefully, they will have the courage to fix the place and get it right. But again, how are bugs even loosly themed to California?

[larworth]

After the breakup?

[Douglas Dubh]

But again, how are bugs even loosly themed to California?

Last time I was in California, there were plenty that ended up on my grill and windshield.