Points at BWV vs WL vs OKW

[MaryAnnDVC]

I hadn't realized this before today (today I booked VWL while on waitlist for BWV) but the points at VWL are about the same/night as the preferred view at BWV. And OKW points are about the same/night as the standard view at the BWV. I was aware of the OKW situation, but not VWL.

Isn't that going to make staying at VWL less desirable? I was hoping for a mass cancellation at BWV to stay at the new VWL when we go, so that I could get BWV.

Any thoughts?

[CarolMN]

I think opinions will vary a lot on this one. We're relatively new BWV owners (12/99) and so far, we have no desire to stay anywhere but BWV. We've stayed twice on points to date, and have reservations for two more trips. That will take us through our 2002 use year points. I love to plan our Disney trips and have fairly firm plans for our 2003 points. Maybe after that, we'll be ready to try out one of the other DVC resorts or possibly exchange out. NOT! LOL!

Hope your plans to stay at BWV work out.

[DebbieB]

I'm a BWV owner and I like to alternate stays between OKW and BWV. I like the larger rooms at OKW and having your car right outside and I like the location of BWV being able to walk to Epcot & MGM and be close to all the restaurants in that area. VWL seems to have the disadvantages of both - smaller rooms, no park within walking distance, parking lot far and not a big selection of restaurants. I expected the room points to be closer to OKW, not the same as BWV preferred. I doubt we'll stay there.

[JillU-DVC]

I think it will really depend on the person - we do plan on staying at the WLV at some point in the future. When we do, we'll use whatever points it takes in order to stay there.

The same thing is true of BWV for us.

So I think it will depend on each person; some won't want to stay there because they'd rather stay at a resort that uses less points per night; some will stay there regardless of the points per night.

Jill Neill

[Richyams]

I have had a few, very long dissertations on the value of a point spent at VWL vs the other resorts.

I realize that some people love the WL setting so much that they would stay there if the points were doubled, but for the rest of us....

The reason for the higher points per night at BWV than OKW is readily apparent. The BWV location and the Boardwalk area itself, can certainly be said to justify this higher point cost, even if the rooms are so small when compared to OKW.

VWL, on the other hand, has the same small units as BWV and doesn't have the location or ability to walk to two parks as the BWV has. I agree 100% that the point schedule is too high for what you get. A point spent at VWL returns less value than a point spent at either OKW or BWV.

I think that this lower return on points is going to make home resort ownership and the use of the home resort window at both BWV and OKW ever more important.

[MaryAnnDVC]

Hi Rich. :wave: Once again, I value your insight. DH and I discussed it, and I changed my reservation from VWL to OKW.

Although I think I'd like to stay at each of the DVC resorts at some point, right now...being a novice...I'd rather save on points, and get a better feel for what each resort has to offer and how long I'd like to stay at them.

Thanks again, to all. :D

[Lisa F]

Before I tried out VWL, I agreed in with Rich's assessment of the value of a point. For the most part, I think I still agree... however I don't think the "value of a point" is the whole story.

I don't think that anyone bought into DVC because it was the cheapest option available. There are certainly much less expensive timeshares available in the Orlando area, as well as a ton of very inexpensive hotels just minutes from WDW property. People bought into dvc because they want a certain type of a vacation and if you are going to want that type of vacation year after year for the next 42 years, DVC is the best value for your money.

Although the point schedule is higher at VWL, now that I have stayed there I can defiantely see staying there again (in fact, we are in the process of adding on 50 points there). It's a beautiful resort and for me, was just the right place between being "relaxing" and in the center of it all.

I would not choose to stay at OKW again unless it was a choice between OKW and not going to WDW at all. I don't care how many fewer points it costs to stay there, I don't like it. I would have no qualms whatsoever about spending the extra points to stay at VWL (over a standard at the BWV) because I love it there, just like I have had no qualms about spending more per point to buy points at BWV or using more points to stay there over OKW when given the choice.

So I'm not saying that I really disagree with your assessment, Rich, just that I don't think it's the entire picture. Although compared to BWV I don't think staying at VWL is as good a "value", it's still a great value relative to paying cash to stay there and I bought into DVC to take advantage of that value as well as to enjoy the kinds of resorts I love.

Lisa

[RAD]

I can feel the arrows in my back now, I just don't see what ranks VWL at the same point level as BWV preferred? DW and I've have stayed at WL and while we agree that the lobby and grounds look great that was about the only draw for the place. The bus transportation we think is harder to use then the BWV or OKW. The views of the rooms at VWL don't seem to offer anything then a view of the parking lot or the lake, if you can see them through the trees. Sorry, but to use it's not worth the points.

[Lisa F]

I think the point schedule at VWL is independent of how anyone thinks it "ranks" among the other DVC resorts. I was under the impression that the higher point schedule was created in order to keep initial buy in price per point lower so that DVC could continue to sell VB and HH.

Before I tried it out I couldn't see paying extra points to stay there on a regular basis. When I stayed there, I LOVED it so much that I don't see it as a comparison of which costs more, BWV or VWL. I see it as a matter of "If I want to stay at VWL, this is what I have to pay."

Like I said before, even if OKW cost half the points, I wouldn't choose to stay there over BWV or VWL because I don't like it there. I like VWL enough to be willing to pay preferred points to stay there.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that you should try things out before you decide they're not "worth it." I was really unconvinced about VWL from the one time I stayed at the WL itself but I was really impressed by the villas... impressed enough to want to go back. I really really enjoyed my vacation there and that's why I bought into DVC. If it's not for you then it's not for you... but some of my preconceived notions about ALL of the other resorts were wrong until I experienced them for myself and saw what MY reactions were to them rather than taking what people on the board say as gospel or even judging based on just visiting but not really getting to know the place.


Lisa

[Dean]

The WLV points are EXACTLY the same as BW preferred. Many of us were surprised at that turn of events. Though I prefer WL as a resort to others, I don't see it in the same level of luxury and overall amenties to BW, YC/BC, etc. The combination of price increase and point levels (higher than expected), caused us to decide against an add on that was an assumption prior. I love DVC and especially the WL but if I were starting from scratch and that were my only choice, I'd likely not buy in to DVC at this time. BCV will be higher still in both points per unit and price per point but I think it will be a slightly better value than WLV regardless.

[Richyams]

I agree. I am stunned that it is selling as fast as it is. I guess that is what is driving the resale market so hard. It is also what is going to guarantee BCV opeing at at least my long ago predicted $85.

What really worries me is the point schedule. WHile I realize that some wouldn't stay at OKW for 1/2 the point, there are many that wouldn't stay at BWV for 1/2 the points either. I believe that if all they are selling is BCV, many will buy and use the points at the lower priced DVC resorts. This is going to make the 11 month window ever more important.

This will be the biggest reason yet to buy where you plan to stay.

[mikek]

I think theres lots of variables.

I think Rich has a lot of valid observations which would apply to most people, but everyone is different so they wont apply to all.

First, I think a BIG draw is the transportation. NOT the crappy bus situation to everywhere else, but the fact that you can take a quick boat ride over right to the MK. If you have very young kids- I think that's a Big draw.

Second, I dont think people buying new will really care- we've all seen the math how the break even is way less than 10 years. So whats that make for the WL owners- their break in will be 10 years instead of 8? I dont think thats a big deterrent. Disney will get whatever they thing the market will sustain. (I do think Rich's is right on to be concerned that 7 month ressies will get harder at the 'cheaper' resorts though- although that's not definate)

THird- I'm not sure of the mix, but i believe the great majority of rooms at BW are preffered- so most BW owners already 'pay' those high point levels.

Fourth- you can just watch the heated threads here all the time to see that people like different resorts for many different reasons. SO I'm sure in a few months we'll have the WL vs. OKW and WL vs BW discussions with some folks who own over there vehemently explaining there views.

just my thoughts
mike

[dianeschlicht]

Thanks, Rich.

I too have worried about people from VWL and eventually BCV using OKW to save on points. It is almost more of an issue than not using weekends! The only saving factor is that they will have to wait until the 7 month window to book. Do you see that as still possing a problem?

[Richyams]

I think it will be a problem at OKW and BWV. Most people see the location of BWV as valuable. Why would they want to spend the same number of points for VWL?

Many people want to maximize their points, why not stay at OKW, spend less points and get a much larger unit tooooo!!!!!

As long as we have the 7-11 month windows, it will be ok....but it still limits us from using our home resorts on short notice.

I understand that OKW is very large and you can usually get something there, but I think as there are more and more woners with VWL and BCV, that is not going to always be the case. BWV can already be very difficult without the 11 month window.

[MaryAnnDVC]

The boat to MK was the primary reason we booked at VWL in the first place, without even checking the point differences between OKW and VWL. We switched to OKW because we really don't know too much at all about either resort, so this trip (if we don't get what we really want...BWV) we're winging it, and saving some points in the process. We don't really spend that much time at MK anyway, relative to the total time we are at WDW. And really, for us, the extra 40 points it would cost isn't worth the few boat rides to MK.

I agree that people will pay for what they want. That's why I always found those debates about whether or not Deluxe Resorts were "worth it" somewhat annoying...it is if you think it is. (And we did.) And everyone has different ideas about what "value" to place on what each resort has to offer. We loved the convenience of the BC, and so were instantly hooked on BWV.

Having said that, I think Rich made some good observations about the types of factors that people may consider when choosing a DVC resort to stay at and the impact that these choices may have on other DVCers.

[DanG]

OK, I'll bite.

I recently closed on a contract for VWL and Vero Beach points. I know for certain folks that makes for two mistakes, but I declined to purchase BWV and OKW resales, simply because those two resorts didn't fit my family's preferences and how we see ourselves vacationing for the next ten years (after that, who knows).

I can appreciate Rich's subjective perspective that the point allocations and room size do not provide fair value as compared to the other two on-site resorts. But that is opinion rather than fact. I can understand why one would want to always stay in a Grand Villa and why that may be one of the driving factors for he or she to love OKW.

But consider that some people might not actually care about a 10-15% point differential when choosing where to go on vacation. When you amortize the costs over a 40+ year period, why not buy where you want to stay most. If I get one vacation to a DVC resort per year, I damn well want to go to the place that most appeals to me and have the advantage of the 11 month window. A hundred or two dollars per vacation doesn't mean much to the total cost of a vacation when you look at a trip cost that includes airfare, tickets, rental car and food.

We chose WLV with a Vero Beach add-on because we want to go to DW every other year during Spring Break and mix in Vero Beach at Easter for a week every third year. And like Vero or not, if you want to go during Easter week, you better have the 11 month window.

Our kids (4 ages 8 and under with another on the way)love the Magic Kingdom, and we like the quicker access back and forth by boat. The relaxing theming and beautiful rooms appeal to us in a way that BWV (too frenetic and what's up with that creepy clown slide) and OKW (sterile theming and motor lodge layout) don't. But that is our totally subjective opinion which I would expect many here to disagree. I try to recognize that.

Finally, of all the advice I see posted on the board, buy where you like seems to be almost universally agreed upon. I would just appreciate if people could acknowledge that purchasing at a resort other than your own could be the result of reasoned analysis and consideration. Most of us had a choice when choosing a home resort

The factors that make your DVC resort your favorite just might not be important to others. And that's OK


Dan

[MaryAnnDVC]

I think I said that.

[Richyams]

So you have taken my advice perfectly and completely. I thank you for agreeing with everything I ever said.

I have always said that it is best to buy where you plan to stay most. You did, perfect.

I have always said that buying VB points for exclusive use at WDW DVC resorts may not be the best idea.

Is that a knock on VB?

I have always said that VB is a great resort, one of the finest in the world. I can't even count the number of times I have said that. I think that it is the best idea to own there if you plan to vacation there regularly.

Again, you took my advice, perfectly.

And I have always said that there will be some that would stay at WL for any price because they love the theming so much, those people should buy there.

Again, you took my advice, perfectly.

Wether you actually took my advice or came upon the same conclusions using common sense, it doesn't matter.

I just have to wonder who would consider your purchase a mistake.....I certainly wouldn't, wether by accident or on purpose, you followed my advice to the letter.

[CRobin]

You obviously posted here by mistake. You must have meant to post on the "Logical, well thought out, non-judgemental" board.;)

Great post, and right on the money.

[Joeblack]

:jester:

CNRobin: LOL :)

Dan. That was a very good post. Upon returning from my last trip, I was one of the first to say that WLV point value was lower than OKW or BWV for the reasons Rich points out. Today, I find myself ready to close on an add on for WLV. Why? Well, Dan and Lisa nailed why.

Disney sells us fantasies where we can feel like Old West Pioneers or like Gatsby in the 20's or like a Parrothead down the Florida Keys. Nobody does that better than Disney, and they know that people are willing to pay for such fantasy. Few people will disagree that the WL is one of the most (if not the most) breath-taking resorts in WDW. Its atmosphere really takes you back to a certain place in time that many find incredibly appealing. I know that is how I feel and that is why I am buying an add on there. I am willing to forfeit larger accomodations and be alittle appart from it all just to be able to soak up in the atmosphere the WLV offers. Obviously, many people feel taht way too, and therefore, WLV are selling out fast.

[Clifford@BWV&VWL]

Hi, gawsh as Goofy would say, what an interesting thread. AFter reading through it I'm glad to see that a hot topic has been looked at in such a balanced way without going over the edge!!!

To add our two penneth (our views), our home is BWV which we purchased a couple of years ago. We chose this for the location and facilities, it gives us an excellent base for when we want to go into the theme park magic at Epcot or MGM and gives us all of the transportation options on our doorstep (granted you need to walk a little way to get to the monorail but after those large American breakfasts you need the exercise!).

We have just decided to add-on at VWL because we liked the idea of the 11 month window at a location which is still handy for WDW but gives us a retreat from all of the activity at BWV.

We also love VB and have stayed there but we felt we could handle the 7 month window at VB as we tend to stay out of the main seasons. We have never stayed at OKW but for all the reasons stated previously in this thread and elsewhere it sounds like a great place to be.

Let's face it, wherever you stay on Disney property you will have a magical time... guaranteed and that's why we joined DVC. :wave:

[Pete W.]

Of course everyone should do what's right for them, and if buying at VWL feels good then do it. But recognize that VWL owners may not be getting as much value for their money as BWV owners.

A one-night stay at the BWI during regular season is $309 for a standard-view room, and a one-night stay during regular season at the Wilderness Lodge is $219. Whether you agree or not, Disney is indicating that a stay at BWI is significantly more valuable than a comparable stay at WL.

Interestingly, this disparity all but disappears when comparing BWV to VWL. A standard-view studio during regular season at BWV costs $309 per night (the same as BWI!) and a standard-view studio during regular season at VWL costs $294 per night. And, as others have indicated in this thread, it takes just as many DVC points to reserve a room at VWL as it does for a preferred-view room at BWV.

I argue that BWI guests IN GENERAL get more value (in terms of proximity to parks, dining, recreation and entertainment) from their rooms than WL guests, which is why BWI guests pay significantly more than WL guests for comparable accommodations.

By extension, I believe that BWV guests get more value from their rooms than VWL guests, yet VWL guests (whether paying cash or DVC points) are charged as much as BWV guests!

If you love VWL and are happy owning there, then more power to you, especially if you don't value the proximity to Epcot/MGM, shopping, dining and entertainment that BWV guests enjoy. But understand that guests IN GENERAL value the Wilderness Lodge location significantly less than the Boardwalk location, and as a result Disney charges significantly less for the WL vs BWI, yet you pay just as much for VWL as others pay for BWV.

This, IMO, means VWL owners are getting a significantly worse deal than BWV owners. It might be a deal that they are happy to make, but it's a worse deal nevertheless.

[Lisa F]

Originally posted by Pete W.

Interestingly, this disparity all but disappears when comparing BWV to VWL. A standard-view studio during regular season at BWV costs $309 per night (the same as BWI!) and a standard-view studio during regular season at VWL costs $294 per night. And, as others have indicated in this thread, it takes just as many DVC points to reserve a room at VWL as it does for a preferred-view room at BWV.

{snip}

If you love VWL and are happy owning there, then more power to you, especially if you don't value the proximity to Epcot/MGM, shopping, dining and entertainment that BWV guests enjoy. But understand that guests IN GENERAL value the Wilderness Lodge location significantly less than the Boardwalk location, and as a result Disney charges significantly less for the WL vs BWI, yet you pay just as much for VWL as others pay for BWV.

This, IMO, means VWL owners are getting a significantly worse deal than BWV owners. It might be a deal that they are happy to make, but it's a worse deal nevertheless.

Of course the disparity all but disappears when you compare DVC units. Did you honestly expect DVC to build new units and sell them for LESS than they sold them for at the BW (no matter where the units are built)? DVC's pricing structure is market driven. It's not based on what is "fair", it's based on what people are willing to pay. Right now DVC can't build resorts on WDW property fast enough.

Although I understand the argument about the relative value of staying at various resorts, that argument is basically a statistical oversimplification of the situation. People who wish to stay at the VWL have to pay the price that is driven by the market, which is STILL a good value in comparison to rack rates at the WL. Comparing relative value between the resorts is like comparing apples to oranges because, as I have said before, what is the "value" in staying at any resort if it's not where you want to be staying?

Just looking at the numbers I'd say the best value in DVC hands down is OKW. Members bought in at around $50 per point. It has the lowest point schedule and the highest square footage per room, so based on material facts alone you are getting more "room" for your dollar.

There are tons of people who would argue that location of the BWV makes it a better value than OKW. All that this goes to show is that depending on what your values are and what aspects of your vacation are important to you, different people will put different values on the relative amenities of the various resorts. Price is only one factor. Square footage is another. Location is another. Different people weigh these things differently.

People who purchase at VWL are not idiots because they value that particular location and that particular atmosphere more highly than square footage and being within walking distance to a major park. They don't need to "understand" that they are getting much less for their dollar than people at other resorts. I could get a $49 discounted rate at the All Star resorts easily but I have no desire to stay there so there is no value in that to me, regardless of what the "dollars to square footage" ratio says. What they do understand is that they are getting to stay at their favorite resort in fabulous villas for far less money than it would cost to stay in the lodge in similarly sized rooms.

Lisa

[Pete W.]

I hope that nothing I wrote in my post suggested that VWL owners are idiots. To the contrary, I fully respect the fact that some people prefer VWL to BWV, and for those people, buying a VWL contract is the right thing to do.

My only point is that some VWL owners get rankled when anyone suggests they are getting a "worse deal" than some other DVC members.

I bought in at BWV for $65/point in '98. I paid a heck of a lot more than OKW owners in '92 plus I received no park passes. I admit that OKW buyers in '92 got a better deal than me.

When I add-on via resale next year at $75/point (or whatever it will be by then!) I won't feel like an idiot for paying $10+ more per point than in '98. For me, it will be the right thing to do at the right time, even though my '98 purchase will be a better deal than my '02 purchase.

Obviously, none of us would have purchased DVC if we didn't think it was a good deal, but that doesn't mean that we can't accept the fact that some deals are better than others.

Enjoy your trips to VWL Lisa!

[Lisa F]

I also bought into BWV in 1998, took advantage of magical beginnings and it brought our price effectively down to $55/point.

I've occasionally thought about the fact that perhaps we COULD'VE bought into DVC much sooner and it would've been a better deal. But then I remember how much I love the BWV and how much I didn't really like OKW and I realize that no matter what the price was at OKW, I wouldn't have bought in there anyway. SO, when I think about the "deal" and the "value" I got at BWV, I don't compare it to how much OKW cost when it first opened, but rather how much BWV cost when IT first opened. In my mind, THAT is compare apples to apples and you just can't make an objective comparison otherwise.

Likewise, your resale example is also comparing apples to apples and yes, you got a better deal with your original BWV purchase than you will with an add on (and I acknowledge that our last BWV add on in which we only were able to sell back half our points for MB and which cost $67/point as a base was not as good a deal as our original purchase).

All I am saying is that the comparisons that are being made between resorts have some basis in fact and a liberal amount of "personal opinion" thrown in and are therefore a matter of making a comparison that cannot be fairly made. To say that VWL are getting a worse deal IMO isn't really fair... except to say that those who buy in after the price increase will be getting a worse deal than those who bought in before.

Lisa

[BillM]

Kudos to DanG on his post. He expressed his opinion perfectly. DVC buyers purchased at the five resorts for personal reasons. That's their business and their $$$.So be it. We don't need to be told that our decision was not well reasoned and that it wasn't a good value. LisaF says she "doesn't like OKW". I'm sure she has some personal reasons for that opinion. We have that same negative opinion of BWV. But we have personal reasons for that opinion. That doesn't make us unvalue consious. We couldn't care a twit whether we could walk to Epcot or MGM. And that's our personal opinion.