DEBATE: They’ve successfully trained us to “settle”

[DVC-Landbaron]

For those of you who were vigilant, you may have noticed that right around 9:00 this morning, for about five minutes (I told you, you had to be vigilant!) this post was in response to the thread “Screamscape reports...Forbidden Mountain!?!?!”. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought it needed it’s own thread. Mainly because I wanted to make a different point than AK – good or bad, which that thread has kind of fallen into. And I also wanted to know what everyone else thinks about this subject and not just the die-hard rumors people who still follow multi-page threads. So, as first submitted...

_______________________


E-Ticket!! E-Ticket!! E-Ticket!! E-Ticket!! E-Ticket!! E-Ticket!!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

So, just an E-Ticket will fix all the ills of AK, eh? I think not doctor!!!!

We talk about E-Tickets as if they are the “be-all” and “end-all” of a Disney experience! Well, my friends, I am here to tell you that are not!!

It is the Disney “experience” that is important. An E-Ticket is just one aspect of that experience.

Many, many people on this thread want BK, very badly. And some can’t understand their narrow focus. I think I can shed some light on this rather elusive concept.

Picture, if you will, a Disney of 30 years ago. They build, and present to the public, a very, very “full” day park, two beautiful resorts, themed to the max (for fairly affordable prices), world class golf courses and attached resort, a quaint shopping district, the most luxurious campgrounds imaginable, gobs of shopping and restaurants, two lakes (one they built from nothing and the other they drained and fixed up) and offering many other vacation-like stuff never offered by Disney before (fishing, horseback riding, boating, sailing, etc.). And it all opens on virtually the same day (not quite but within a couple years).

Now, picture, if you will, a Disney of twenty years ago. Even with two guys at the helm that acted like deer caught in the headlights, they build and present to the public – EPCOT! A day and half (at least!) “Disney experience”. (I was tempted to name things individually, as I did in the first paragraph, but let’s face it; it’s just too much typing!)

Clearly!! Clearly, this is a company that knows how to WOW their audience. And shortly thereafter they continue to WOW. They don’t present “rides”, single E-Tickets, or god forbid anything like Dino-rama!! But instead offer us full-blown pavilions. Attractions with a capital “A”!!! Horizons. The Livings Seas. Morocco. And the rumors were plentiful throughout that time. A ‘Space’ pavilion (not just a trill ride). A Movie Pavilion. Switzerland, Spain, Russia, and countless other countries. Exotic resorts. All these things were on the drawing boards at one time or another. In other words they thought BIG.

And the MK was not neglected. Space Mountain was added (not substituted – an important point in these discussions) to an already full park. Thunder Mountain was added (not substituted) to an already full park. Even during the current administration some wonderful things were added, Splash Mountain, the two wonderful water parks, etc. (Thankfully Ei$ner did not yet have a good handle on those wonderful Imagineers who grew up thinking BIG)

But somewhere the thinking began to change. (Hmmm. I wonder if that might be the change in philosophy that many here talk about.) And they next big project was rumored to be wonderful. In fact, it was so wonderful that the original concept (an EPCOT pavilion) was so grand that it required it’s own park!! WOW!!!

But somehow, on opening day, there were quite a few folks that were less than WOWed. The park seemed small. Not as full-blown as we were used to. It’s not that it was bad necessarily, it was just… well… less. On a personal note I was willing to wait for Sunset Boulevard, the section of the park that couldn’t be built on time because of the Universal competition. I was more than willing to wait for my guy, the top mouse (yes, I said my guy! At that point he was my hero) to give us the full “Disney experience”. I was more than a little disappointed when an entire section, what I would consider a “Land” in the MK, opened with only one stinking ride in it! And that ride was a mix of great theming, wonderful story and ROTTEN thrill. Remember? Up, down and out!!

Since then they’ve been throwing us bones. Giving us very small handouts at a time. And they are also cutting what once was. So I can’t blame those that are grateful for what they “give” us (very insightful AV!!), but I fall more in line with those that expect just a little more. Say, like a park that opens full (for full price) and doesn’t have to be ‘grown’ according to some analysts spreadsheet and customer surveys, which more often that not just justifies what that particular manager or executive wants to justify.

So, to wrap up this rather long winded dissertation (who said “finally”?!?) I think many people have come to expect and therefore want ‘more’ from Disney. It doesn’t necessarily have to be Beastly Kingdom. But the need for a full-blown ‘something’ is clearly felt by many (and I admit that I am in that group). It could be Beastly Kingdom, or it could be Australia and the Americas, complete with two (BIG) E-tickets, two D-Tickets, a couple of “C”s and for good measure at least on “A” throw-away, corny something that everyone tries once and can easily be changed.

I think that many feel the same way for Disney in general. Stop changing out attractions for rides (heck! Stop exchanging, period!! And start adding!!). Stop closing attractions and not replacing!! And when they do add, WOW us. WOW us with an experience, not necessarily a thrill. And build things with the Disney standard that we all fell in love with. And part of that standard is size! Things to do! (If you don’t believe me, go back and read AV’s post on the current administration’s philosophy on what constitutes a full day at a park. You will be amazed!!)

Hey Greg. I’m no good at it, but maybe you could provide a link, or maybe AV could go through the whole thing again. I considered it a real eye-opener!!

OK. I’m done. And I want you guys to notice!! Not one single quote!! And no smilies either!! :crazy: almost!! ;)

[larry_poppins]

Wow you certainly did write a dissertation! Just my thoughts in brief...

I certainly expect more than Dinorama and California Adventure.
Beastly Kingdom would be nice, but I have learned not to get excited about anything that Walt Disney Attractions builds in America.

I am very excited about the theming and the E tickets at Tokyo DisneySea. A friend of mine who has been there has told me and I quote, "Quit whining! Disney did build a park you want to visit. You just have to get there!"

And getting there I am. The more I learn and plan for my Tokyo experience the better I feel. I have curtailed my expenditures of the American Disney product to help pay for it. If I enjoy it as much as my friend I will probably be returning there as well

Current Disney management has led me to divorce myself emotionally from the American Company.

Just my thoughts

Larry Nash

[Bob O]

I would agree with DVC. When i go to a wdw theme park i expect to be "wowed". And while i enjoyed Ak i wasnt "wowed" or overwhelmed, escpecially considering the amounts of attractions and time needed to visit Epcot/MK in comparsion.
When i always state i want BK it isnt just the thought of another E attraction but a new area themed with many different types of attractions, something that should have been their from day one and not a decade later after people paid milliomns in full admission prices waiting for it to be built. Thats what disney used to do but not is content to rest on their godd name/laurels and give is less rather than more.
And now beside under building Ak they have done little to update Epcot or MK as of late and some of the attractions they have they dont run often if at all and keep closing the park early in hopes you will spend money at Downtown Disney or Mini. golf as examples. They want you out of the parks at night and in other places on the property spending money. It wasnt like that when i used to go but is now.
Lets hope competition will push disney to do a better job or actions by us to hold them too a higher standard will prod them to do a better job. But alas we may only have ABC promo's to look forward too!!!(have to love synergy)

[Sandy Fisher]

You guys continue to provide views and details that entertain and enlighten me! For reasons no one else would be interested in, haven't read this board for a week.
Trying to catch up. Rarely give my deep down honest no-holds-barred opinion on things because I hate to be negative and some days that's what it boils down to.
Our first trip to Disney, in 1982, we were wowed. Absolutely, positively wowed. Then we came back when Epcot opened. Again, wowed. How could they top those two parks??!!
When MGM opened and we returned, I was less than happy with it. The only reason we spent more than a couple hours was because it was confusing to get around - no pattern, no logic, etc. And the lines for the big stuff were long and Indiana Jones took forever if you counted standing in line and the show. From that point on we never spent more than a half day. We weren't wowed, but enjoyed our first few times on Star Tours, Indiana, and Movie Ride. Our kids were beyond the kiddie stuff, but liked the Muppet Show.
When AK opened I was ready to be wowed. Getting around the park (much like MGM when new) was so frustrating, hot and tiring. We thought it looked "skimpy" but totally enjoyed Safari and had some good eats. Again, having grown children we didn't spend much time on Bugs, Dinosaurs, etc. But we didn't feel the park was complete. We were back in November (along with adult sons) and other than them doing the Kali River, we did it in a half day.
There's a lot I love about Disney. A lot. Or we wouldn't spend the $$ and time to travel across country to go. But they have talked us into settling for less. Our "world" at WDW has shrunken. Still, no one else does it as well and we've been to many many amusement parks and theme parks. We'll keep hoping for the new event, attraction, or park completion (?) that wows us.
Once again, I really do appreciate the information and insight you guys have. Thanks for interesting reading!
Sorry, didn't mean to ramble. Just got carried away.:cool:

[Bob O]

Sandy i agree!!! And 1982 was also the year of our first visit!!!

[manning]

Well said Walt!! Uh, I mean DVC-Landbaron

[Lesley]

I agree with the Landbaron!

Actually I had written a long post about seeing the parks as an art form.....and how AK, though its a beautiful start on what could be a great piece of work, is losing its focus and may never become an example of theme park as an art form like the MK or TDS are. (The post vanished in the course of writing/editing it!)

I honestly believe that the "something" that many can't put their fingers on that seems to be missing these days is that sense of art (I'm referring to those unwashed masses....who seem to say after their WDW trips "it was all right....I don't see a reason to go again...it just seemed...well, I don't know...not what I expected"). And I guess this "training" is to get folks to stop expecting art and get them to expect just a theme park. They will lose visitors over this, and already have...though they won't be able to quantify the why's or how's.

[DisneyKidds]

Baron, Baron, Baron............

Just what you have been waiting for I'm sure, someone to disagree with you. I'll be happy to oblige, and unlike you I will use quotes and many smilies ;).

I would, however, like to congratulate you on your dissertation. It has some very good thoughts (as always :D ) - and you refrained from using the A word (apologists, that is :p ).

So here goes..........

We talk about E-Tickets as if they are the “be-all” and “end-all” of a Disney experience! Well, my friends, I am here to tell you that are not!!

How true (see, one of those good thought :)). Thanks for trying to educate some of your Car #3 bretheren.

It is the Disney “experience” that is important.

Yes, yes, yes............... (another great thought :)).

Want more agreement? I'm with you through your paragraph that has me picturing Disney of 20 years ago. Good stuff, and boy were you getting used to having things a certain way. Well, anyway, that is where I begin to lose you. I am also curious as to why you did not include a paragraph that pictures a Disney of 10 years ago :confused:.

Lets take a closer look at where you did and did not go. You mention a lot in the next couple of paragraphs. Full blown stuff, WOWing, big ideas, etc. Morocco, please. Furthermore, many of those big ideas never happened (hmmmm - kind of like BK, huh?)

Lets look at that Disney of 10 years ago and forward. I'll include MGM in there, along with AK. In addition, there was no neglect of the MK. By your own accounts MK opened full, had some great additions, and is a very mature park. Rather foolhardy to continue to expect growth like it experienced in the 80's. That is not from the perspective of someone who settles, either. Parks eventually reach their bounds and bump up against a ceiling. In addition, several rides and shows were updated and added. Lion King show, soon to be Philharmagic. Pooh, Toon Town, Tomorrow Land redo, Buzz, Alien, Aladdin, new and changed live shows, and more. Granted, not everyone likes all of these - but the neglect you imply? I don't think so. And that is just MK during this time. You have a DTD expansion incuding Cirque, Disney Quest, the West Side, more shopping. How about another wonderfully themed water park. A ski lift in a water park - you can't get more Disney than that. Resorts - WL and CSR, along with a few others perhaps less desireable, but growth nonetheless. DVC becomes a wonderful, expanding option. Quite a lot of 'bones'. I'm sure you'll find a way to make them all about Disney making money rather than adding to the 'experience', but I disagree.

Now we must talk about MGM and AK, far from 'bones'. You talk of MGM as small, not full blown. First off, as you point out, it's origins were an Epcot pavillion. Could they really turn a pavillion into a park the size of MK or Epcot? The answer is no. Should Disney continue to build parks the size of MK and Epcot? Again, I say no. That may be what you had become accustomed to, but it doesn't mean doing something else is wrong. I know - you ask, "why shouldn't they build parks the size of MK and Epcot?" Here is why. In MGM and AK I believe the concepts are smaller and more focused. This is not a bad thing as it allows to spend more time developing the things that enhance the 'experience', rather than just giving more to do. I completely disagree with the 'size as part of the standard' concept.

Lets focus on MGM for a moment. The way you describe it, people felt about MGM when it opened the same way many feel about AK today (and I don't hear all that many grumblings about MGM today. Interesting, huh?) People weren't WOWed because MGM didn't meet their expectations, MGM wasn't what they were accustomed to. Boy, sounds a lot like some discussions on AK. How many overlooked attractions were there when it opened? Things like the animation tour that most people probably didn't take the time to do. Sunset Blvd as a "Land"? Maybe what you expected, but I never looked at it that way. Furthermore, ToT may have been disappointing to you, but it was a uniquely Disney take on a free fall concept that is so much less in other places. Ok, the drop was short - crucify them for it. MGM = Smaller Concept = Smaller Park, and smaller concept and smaller park are not bad things unless only something on the scale of MK and Epcot will make you happy. (BTW, same equation for AK) If not, does it mean you are settling? Absolutely not. It means you can evaluate and appreciate a variety of different entertainment in many different forms and presentation formats. It means that you can appreciate the smaller, more intimate scale of a movie studio concept (or animal concept). Who wants cookie cutter parks that just happen to have a different theme? That is not very innovative or original, is it?

I could rehash AK discussions, but I will try not to. All I will say is that it is a full park worthy of full price if you experience all it has to offer. Maybe they targeted the wrong demographic, maybe they misjudged a focus group, whatever it is that make some people dislike it, there is still plenty to do if you are inclined to do it. I'm sick of hearing about DinoRama. How about a little patience. Just like all the other parks had additions, so too will AK. Now that I think about it, MK without all those things you admit were added after the fact would be a bit of a snoozer compared to what it is today (attractions wise that is).

Change in philosophy is a big theme for many, and I don't think anyone has yet argued that there hasn't been some change in philosophy, with both good and bad motivation. However, despite any changes in philosophy, we are stilled WOWed by something new everytime we go to WDW, be it something old or something new.

So, to wrap up this rather long winded dissertation (who said “finally”?!?) I think many people have come to expect and therefore want ‘more’ from Disney.

but I fall more in line with those that expect just a little more.

I see a big part of the problem not that some people expect 'more', but they expect things a 'certain way'. When things aren't delivered the way that they expect it, it is seen as a negative. However, different does not equal wrong. Here is where you fail to see the forrest through the trees. Remember that little thing you mentioned about the 'experience', the thing it is all about. If you focus on all the things that were not what you expected, you miss much of that all important 'experience'. I would use a different "S" word than you. I would use spoiled instead of settling. It is like filet mignon is all you ever eat. A new chef takes over the joint and likes to offer a New York strip. "My, my - I won't eat NY strip" says the Baron. Well, guess what, NY strip has a heck of a lot more flavor.

I'm not saying that Disney hasn't changed - some good, some bad. Yes, philosophy has changed. Yes, mistakes have been made. Yes, cutbacks are a disappointment. Yes, some things could have been done better. Yes, people probably said the same thing 10 and 20 years ago. However, the 'experience' is there, waiting for you to take it in. The danger is, if you focus on these changes or disappointments to you, you might miss the experience. You have said before that when you are there WDW is great, and when you get back you reflect on the negative. Well, Mr. Baron, experience is the here and now, and you admit it is great while you are there at the time - and the 'experience' is what it is all about. Enjoy your forthcoming three week experience :).

If it so pleases the court, that is the dissenting opinion of the minority ;).

p.s. Leslie - I have to disagree. If anything, AK is too much the unappreciated art form. Disney was not trying to 'train' us to forget the art and accept just a theme park, they went for more. The fact that some didn't get an adequate 'theme park' is why it is so criticized. Disney wanted to give people art, but it is not what they expected - a theme park - so they are disappointed.

[Bob O]

MGM was built small because they wanted it completed before the larger Universal Studios was built. If not for the competition i believe it would have opened as a bigger park than it did.
Now AK was built small for the sole purpose to save money and too start making money right away with the intention of giving the guest less bang for there buck. What i wanted in AK was what they told us it was going too be, not a scaled down version so they could soak the guests!!

[Peter Pirate]

what I wanted in AK is what they told us it was going to be.
Who told us what? We have internet information, we have AV's 'inside info' and we have our perceptions, but when exactly did Disney tell us AK was going to be 'all of these things'? Sure we Disney geeks have ferreted things out and we're good at reading between the lines but were these grandiose plans really promised to us?
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[hopemax]

Who told us what? We have internet information, we have AV's 'inside info' and we have our perceptions, but when exactly did Disney tell us AK was going to be 'all of these things'? Sure we Disney geeks have ferreted things out and we're good at reading between the lines but were these grandiose plans really promised to us?

"The Making of Disney's Animal Kingdom"
author: Melody Malmberg
ISBN: 0-7868-6402-8
price: $24.95
sold: shops in Animal Kingdom and Downtown Disney

But I suppose the book could have been mis-shelved. It was supposed to be under a sign that said fiction.

[Peter Pirate]

OK so we have written verification...Was that book commissioned by Disney? Where are the press releases promsing the future? When did Weiss officially announce and then retract BK?

Just because something has been planned or even greenlighted doesn't make it 'ours.' It's ours when they give it to us, otherwise we can complain about every single attraction not being as "great as it should have been"...
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[Another Voice]

Well, from ‘Since The World Began’ by Jeff Kurtti (forward by Roy Disney) and published by Hyperion (Disney’s wholly owned publishing subsidiary) –

Page 169, “Guests will embark on journeys into three major areas of the theme park, the real, the mythical, and the extinct.”

Page 170, “In the mythical wolrd of unicorns, dragons, and other magical creatures, guests will come face to face with make-believe animals from legends, fairy tales, and storybooks – all of which play an important role in the circle of life because of their powerful hold on our imagination. The creatures will come to life through Disney’s cretive storytelling.”

On page 171 the caption reads “One region of the park, planned for after Phase One, will give ‘life’ to the mythical world of unicorns, dragons, and other magical creatures. Guests will get a chance to see make-believe animals from legends, fairy tales and storybooks.”

The page feature a painting of the entire land with a European village topped by a smoldering castle (the dragon coaster), a topiary garden, the unicorn hedge maze and the ‘Fantasia’ water gardens. Three other smaller paintings show the Unicorn’s Grotto (the goal of the maze), a scene from the ‘Fantasia’ boat ride and a very detailed layout of the Unicorn Maze, complete with the title ‘Quest for the Unicorn’ on the painting.

It’s been very clear from the beginning of the project that Beastly Kingdom was one of the three cornerstones of the park’s theme, one of the core elements of the entire place. In fact the dragon coaster and the unicorn maze were supposed to be “Phase One” attractions and were announced along with the park itself. Dropping BK is a major change both in terms of the plans and for the overall structure of the park as well. It's not trivial.

To me it seems that if the company publicly announces something and features it prominently in the park’s marketing that really does set the guests’ expectations about being able to see it one of these days. The area was always promoted more than just an “idea” for the park.

[Peter Pirate]

OK! That's more like it...I'm glad you see my point.:p
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[Another Voice]

“It's ours when they give it to us…”

Again with the “give us” thing.

Sorry my friend, this is a business and not Santa Claus. Disney has to at least meet its customer’s expectations if they hope that we will continue "giving" them our money in return. The problem with Beastly Kingdom is that too many people believed Disney and want to see it. Until something happens most of those people (rightly or wrongly) are going to perceive Animal Kingdom as being incomplete.

And all because Disney said they were giving us something more than what they delivered.

[Carl]

But you all are missing one very important point.
Disney keeps the parks and resorts full all year round - and, except for a very few months after 9/11, at very high prices.
Why should they feel any real urgency to build more attractions?
The more attractions, the more they have to spend, not only to build them, but also to keep them running. If people are crowding the parks almost to capacity for the reduced hours they are open, why, pray tell, should Disney open the parks longer or build new parks and attractions?

[YoHo]

Landbaron, You have hit what I am all about here, and why I detest fitting into now Verboten Car Models.

I have a problem with the Way Disney expands now, not what we are given. What you expect, what you have outlined in your first post is that they have a cohesive plan. MGM/Studios biggest failure is the lack of a cohesive plan. This goes here, that goes there. AK had one, but it was left unfinished. Now they can't decide what they wanted it to be.

You tread a dangerous line in your Epcot Description, by lumping single Ride Attractions in with Pavilions Horizons isn't any different from say Soarin over California, Horizons however existed amidst a cohesive and compelling theme. Clearly Epcot exists as 2 lands and any subdivison beyond that is gravy.

the Size of the Studios is I think a Blessing. Ultimatly, the only way to expand in Florida beyond 2 parks was to turn lands into parks. I have no problem with that, but Cohesiveness of Theme is a Requirment. Wouldn't the studios be better if things were segragated by theme more? Organization?

AK conversly is organized quite well. It simply is missing a major appendage. Perhaps it's just my wish to see beastly kingdom from a personal standpoint as I like that sort of thing, but AK gives me the same feeling that I get when I look at pictures of Disneyland circa July of 1955. It just isn't done and it needs to be.

Thus with AK, there is some truth to the E-Ticket will save us all concept. Yet, it also needs to be finished in terms of general theme. The Studios needs a Cohesive theme and MK needs actually a few B-D tickets.

[Carl]

But you all are missing one very important point.
Disney keeps the parks and resorts full all year round - and, except for a very few months after 9/11, at very high prices.
Why should they feel any real urgency to build more attractions?
The more attractions, the more they have to spend, not only to build them, but also to keep them running. If people are crowding the parks almost to capacity for the reduced hours they are open, why, pray tell, should Disney open the parks longer or build new parks and attractions?

[All Aboard]

Wouldn't the studios be better if things were segragated by theme more? Organization?Yes, absolutely. The Studios (as originally conceived) failed (so to speak.) Folks didn't seem willing to spend 3 or 4 hours on the then-expanded Studio Tour. So, Disney began adding attractions, here-there-and everywhere. There is little theme to the place.

Themes is one of the reasons I like Universal Studios. First, the original "tag line" of the place was "ride the movies." They've stuck to that quite well. Each and every attraction (except Woody's Kidzone) is about a specific movie (or a demonstration about making movies.) Disney-MGM doesn't quite have that cohesive identity. Rock n Roller is the chief example. (But, I guess music is made in a type of "studio.")

And, the park is divided up into themes. New York (which got a little screwy when Twister replaced Ghostbusters), San Francisco, Amity, World Expo, etc.

And, the layout is great. You can walk in a nice circle from attraction to attraction starting with Hanna Barbera and ending with Terminator.

Disney-MGM studios has seemed to be a haphazard, constantly changing (isn't Beauty and the Beast in it's third home right now) layout.

There is also one big dead area - New York Street. The "backlot" areas of Universal Studios have the attractions built right in. The Hollywood section is a front for Terminator, same for NY - Kong and SF - Earthquake.

Unfortunately, WDW cannot do much about the layout. And, if they are going to expand, they may have to rip out NY Street or Residential Lane.

[YoHo]

Well, As far as Rock and Rollercoaster Goes, I'm willing to accept themes from Radio, Music and T.V., but I want them to be devided up rationally and Logically which they are not. they currently are wherever they might fit.

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. What I really want is agreement from all Disney fans, a grassroots movement that threatens the Boards of Directors, Ei$ner's exit interview convened as soon as possible and someone in his place that ‘gets it’!! But as someone once said: You can’t always get what you want!!

But in this case I get what I need! Disagreement!!! So, on guard!Good stuff, and boy were you getting used to having things a certain way. Well, anyway, that is where I begin to lose you.I don’t see why that would lose you! Sure, we were used to getting good stuff. It was the way Disney did business. It is what I fell in love with.

And don’t forget my friend, that I left out the first twenty years of Disneyland!!! Even more impressive ‘stuff’ was handed out then. Especially when you consider the shoestring budget that they had to live on!!
I am also curious as to why you did not include a paragraph that pictures a Disney of 10 years agoI thought by now you would know me better. The slippery slope was already in place ten years ago. It’s just that the slide wasn’t going as fast as it is today.Full blown stuff, WOWing, big ideas, etc. Morocco, please.I assume the “please” was sarcastic. So! Morocco doesn’t WOW you, eh? It did me! A whole country, rich in texture and theme. Something added, an entire country, within a couple years of opening!! Not bad! And then Norway (which I forgot in my post) complete with ride and movie!! WOW! And again, within a couple years!

Tell me, what have they done since then? Ooooh!! Ooooh!! I can answer that!! NOTHING!!!!Furthermore, many of those big ideas never happened (hmmmm - kind of like BK, huh?)Oh, my friend!! I could tell you blood curdling tales of ‘broken promises, even under Walt’s administration. It has always happened. That’s one of the main reasons for this tread. To differentiate between the specific (BK) and the general (anything else as wonderful and Disney ‘Magical”). In addition, there was no neglect of the MK.I’m afraid you are simply wrong. We lost quite a bit of ground. Remember 20K? Or how about the inception of E-Tickets!! Now that’s quite a concept! What about CoP? Timekeeper? Skyway? That beautiful bit of landscaping next to Space Mountain filled to the brim with pay-for-play video games? Those lost hours that I’m always harping on? And I’m sure there are hundreds of other items that I can’t recall as fast as I am typing. OH! I just thought of another!!! How about that infamous - Mickey head butter!!! ;)

No! I really think it was a net loss, especially when you consider the deferred maintenance and general poor long-term planning.
You have a DTD expansion incuding Cirque, Disney Quest, the West Side, more shoppingI was going to ignore this, but….

Cirque?!?!? Cirque?!?!? You’ve got to be kidding!!! Disney hired a show just as any other city or entity could!! I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s just NOT Disney!! Disney Quest was a valiant effort, I think, but I’m really not sure. All I know, positively, is that it failed. And the West Side!!!! Surely you jest, my good man!!! Have you been to the Mall of America? Or in Chicago, Woodfield Shopping Center, or any other good sized mall in the country? Why on earth would I want THAT in my Disney? Do you really want it in yours?

I’ll give you the water parks and DVC. But to be honest I’ve heard that Ei$ner hated Blizzard Beach because of the cost. Just a rumor, but very telling if true!!

First off, as you point out, it's origins were an Epcot pavillion. Could they really turn a pavillion into a park the size of MK or Epcot?Absolutely!!! You do it right – or – you don’t do it at all!!! (how many times do I have to say that?!?!?! ;) )In MGM and AK I believe the concepts are smaller and more focused.WHAT!!!!??? More focused than EPCOT??? You’ve got to be kidding!!! And just because they are focused (which in the case of MGM they clearly are NOT) why build small? I completely disagree with the 'size as part of the standard' concept.Maybe you like paying full price for something half done, but I don’t!! Change in philosophy is a big theme for many, and I don't think anyone has yet argued that there hasn't been some change in philosophy, with both good and bad motivation.PLEASE, PLEASE!!! Show my that ‘something’ that was created using the changed philosophy!! Please. I really want to know what piece of ‘magic’ was created by something other than Walt’s way of doing things. Of the “old” philosophy.

You like to use analogies. I like that about you. Cause, so do I!!! It is like filet mignon is all you ever eat. A new chef takes over the joint and likes to offer a New York strip. "My, my - I won't eat NY strip" says the Baron. Well, guess what, NY strip has a heck of a lot more flavor.No!! Not at all!! We’ve been eclectic in our dining, but it has all been haute cuisine!! Very fine foods, with subtle spices, gentle herbs that tickle and delight the tongue and palette. And the new chef steps in and starts serving frozen TV dinners, but nicely decorated!! I’m afraid that it’s easily detectable, barely eatable and a little shocking to the system.



Peter: OK! That's more like it...I'm glad you see my point.Peter!! Again, you just crack me up!!! :)

[Lesley]

AK is not yet a work of art in and of itself....it *has* plenty of art....but is not yet a cohesive work as a park.

An art museum is not necessarily art.....

[DisneyKidds]

I do like to give people at least what they need :).

Yes, Lord Baron, I bow to you on the 'game of give and take'. I will always lose that battle as you are well informed and well spoken, as are many others here. Lest I reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes ;).

Yes, if you look at all the revenue and expenses that are the changes at WDW over the years, perhaps we have a net loss on paper. But the WDW I love is about more than paper losses. I thought that was the point of your thread. It is not about E tickets, what is added (whew!, made sure I didn't use the G word ;)) or what is taken away - it is about the 'experience'. While I was sucked into the 'game of give and take' (BTW, I find Magic in MGM and AK, it's ok that you don't. You find Magic in Morocco, it's ok that I don't) that isn't what I intended to be the focus of my post, or you yours. I still maintain that change is a constant in life. I also maintain that not all changes are bad - although many are. But bottom line you have to look at the 'experience', as you pointed out. That is still there, and even you can't deny it :p.

Humor me, good Baron. Help us Benchmark the Disney Magic. Step outside the 'game of give and take' and come clean on what makes the Magic for you. Does that Magic transcend the takeaways? If it does, is it just possible that all the changes in philosophy, all the things 'done wrong', all the take-aways don't amount to a hill of beans in this WDW?

p.s.

Good stuff, and boy were you getting used to having things a certain way.

That may be what you had become accustomed to, but it doesn't mean doing something else is wrong.

I see a big part of the problem not that some people expect 'more', but they expect things a 'certain way'.

I would use a different "S" word than you.

I was attempting to go for an overgrown Garden path here ;). I still maintain that to say if a park isn't MK or Epcot it is 'half done' only clouds one's judgement. And thanks for getting my sarcasm on Morocco - see, we are communicating better :D.

BTW, while I am not the seasoned traveller and elder statesman that you are, I have eaten in some pretty fine establishments and have yet to be served Swanson chopped steak at WDW. You know what, I hated it at first when the Asian Trio became the new trend (philosophy if you will) in so many restaurants a number of years back. But you know, it lead to some pretty haute cuisine of its own and now I don't mind it mixed in with my classic French, old world Italian, or basic American fare.

Leslie - even if you view AK as an art museum, art is still part of the equation. It is not just a big empty building with big empty walls for people to congregate in. Disney wanted to give us art, not just train us to stand around in a big empty building.

[Peter Pirate]

First off thanks to Landbaron & Disneykidds in recognizing (and adding) the humor oft lost in these discussions. This is after all, done in fun, right?...And as you know, my jokes will keep on coming whether anyone thinks they're funny or not...

As to the subject, again Landbaron you are just too preoccupied with the negative. We all understand and feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to totally strip away the enjoyment of the Parks?

The WDW experience is the whole package and I feel bad for some unsuspectig DIS posters who come here all happy with Disney and thrilled about their upcoming trip and leave here all depressed, mad at Disney and ready to hang Eisner because he killed Walt.

I'm sorry that everybody doesn't love AK like I do, but the fact that you don't and I do shouldn't besmearch my opinion of it or color the credbility my opinions have. I think Alien Encounter, Astro Orbiter & CoP suck andwithouta single decet place o eat...making Tomorrowland SM & Buzz for me...Do you hear me crowing about how lame these things are because I don't like them? No, we all have t try and understand where this is all going. So Disney has changed the AK plan mid-stream, thats ok...Let's wait and see it DR is the best we'll ever get. So the hours are down, too bad, but they seem to be accomodating crowds with the 'game day' decisions - not ideal but hardly a negative. So Space isn't going to be as huge it could have been...Hey neither is ToT, Splash Mountain or PoC - Everything could be or could have been better.

I really think Disney has problems, but they have not eclipsed the Park experience yet (not even close) and as Eyore2U points out, ABC is only 2 or 3 hit shows from being profitable - Anything can happen.

Fodder, fodder is the Pirate the fodder?

:cool: :D :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[Walt's Frozen Head]

We all understand and feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to totally strip away the enjoyment of the Parks? Just to stomp all over Greg's noble efforts, I will now throw around Car analogies like crazy.

I believe the 'Baron has "Car #3" tattooed across his forehead... I don't think I'm stereotyping by placing him there for the purpose of this post. And we all know about his imminent season in WDW.

Doesn't that already answer your question, Tom? No, cut hours do not "totally strip away the enjoyment" of WDW. Car #3 is going _to_ WDW, Landbaron individually is going _to_ WDW.

No one in Car #3, to my knowledge, has ever said "enough to totally strip away the enjoyment;" indeed, that description actually adorns Car #4, not Car #3.

Tom, you didn't use the Car terms, but I feel that your statement above is dismissive of facts you know and opinions of which you are aware. Instead of offering a dissenting opinion on the hours topic (as a matter of fact, you appear to _agree_ with the complaint/opinion), you question the validity of something no one has said.

It's impossible for the Car analogy to mean anything at all if people decide that the Car definitions can mean whatever they want them to mean, rather than what the words attached to them actually mean.I'm sorry that everybody doesn't love AK like I do, but the fact that you don't and I do shouldn't besmearch my opinion of it or color the credbility my opinions have. No one ever argued that you secretly don't like Animal Kingdom. We've heard your opinion, we know you like it.

We just don't think "Tom likes it" means "Animal Kingdom is as Magic as Disney could make it." Nothing about you or your perfectly valid opinion; just pointing out that your opinion loses validity if you try to substitute it for everyone else's opinion.I really think Disney has problems, but they have not eclipsed the Park experience yet Okay, when there's no way to avoid a fight, you might as dive in.

Tom, I respect your opinion: your opinion absolutely gives me goosebumps, it's so damned valid.

But to compare the words you used to the words draped across the Cars, it appears that logically you would be in Car #2: problems, but you are confident that they will be worked through. There are quite a few good folks in Car #2, and as long as we're all going _toward_ WDW, we've got something in common, right? There's nothing inherently _wrong_ with Car #2, right?

But I suspect your reaction to this part of the post is going to be defensive. Like I was trying to trick you or actually knock you out of Car #1, as though there was some value inherent to the Cars.

As though the thought of you being in any Car but Car #1 was a personal insult to you.

Suggesting that Car #2 is the Car that most accurately fits your statements is not an insult and is not a slam, it is trying to understand what you are saying.

Suggesting that Car #1's banner might send Disney an inaccurate message is not invalidating your opinion, it is pointing out that criticism can be more constructive than silently accepting acknowledged problems.

Do you see what I mean? There's an awful lot of room for agreement between you and Car #3 based on your fourth paragraph; and Car #2 seems like a perfect fit.

But based on previous posts where this topic has been broached, I fully expect you to respond sounding like some wounded kitten, crying that the mean ol' Headsicle is trying to push you out of Car #1 and deprive you of your birthright.

Come on Tom: make me look like an idiot, here. There's a lot of room to talk about topics, here: different people reading the Car descriptions different ways, Car membership becoming a source of pride to Car riders instead of merely a convenient shorthand, posts proselytising against Car members rathr than commenting on the topic... you wanna take any of that and run with it, or you wanna dwell on a couple harsh words I sprinkled here and there, and declare Victory through Victimization, again?

-WFH

[DisneyKidds]

WFH - I'll run with some of that.

I won't speak for the Pirate, but let me make his statement in my words.

We all feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to diminish the Magic?

You say yes. Pirate and myself, as well as Stanley, Scoop, the Captain, the Duck (who am I leaving out?) say no. However, many a reference has been made to how no one can understand how we could possible feel that way. I think that there is a lot of egocentric thought out there on the part of many. Is that an 'idea' we can discuss or is it not a valid statement or opinion? You see, the Magic is absolutely different for each and every person. To suggest that the problems you see (and we see, too) should diminish everyones Magic is just plain wrong. It might affect some of the experience, but that isn't necessarily the same as the Magic. To suggest that there is no logical way to believe what we do based on known facts and opinions and that we really belong in a different car is to, how should I say it, oh, reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes.

It's impossible for the Car analogy to mean anything at all if people decide that the Car definitions can mean whatever they want them to mean, rather than what the words attached to them actually mean.

I think there are quite a few people guilty of this. As I remember reading it Car #1 was - 'the Magic is as strong as ever'. Car #1 didn't say - 'current management is doing a wonderful job and is headed in the right direction and has not made a mistake that in any way affects the WDW experience and those in this car are sending that message to Disney'. Those seem to be words that someone else attached to Car #1. Remember, the Magic is different for each and every person. Some feel the old Magic withstands the rigors of time and mistake and that new Magic has been created. Some don't. But to say one is wrong is to, how should I say it, oh, reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes.

We just don't think "Tom likes it" means "Animal Kingdom is as Magic as Disney could make it."

And I don't think the Pirate implied that everyone should feel that way. Also, we can agree that things in AK could have been done better, could have been a little more Magic - but that doesn't mean that Magic, strong Magic, isn't there for some. Perhaps not for you and that's ok. Just don't try and tell us it is not Magic as that is dismissive of facts you know and opinions of which you are aware. Nothing about you or your perfectly valid opinion; just pointing out that your opinion loses validity if you try to substitute it for everyone else's opinion.

Here is a topic not many have bitten on. What is the Magic for you (generic 'you')? You see, we might all be using a different vernacular. Is there a definition of Magic that we all share? I don't believe so. So, perhaps understanding what the Magic is to other people will help to shed some light on why people believe what they do. After all, the Magic was what the carpool poll was all about. It is fine, well, and good to discuss how current management and various problems effect your Magic, but if we don't baseline that Magic to begin with the discussion loses its effectiveness. I'll continue the Baron von Disney example for a bit. As you pointed out, Baron will have his tatooed head in the World for an entire season as the experience has not been stripped away completely, but has been reduced by the problems. However, what is the Magic he imbibes while he is there? While parts of his experience may have been affected, has the Magic he craves actually been reduced? How do we know if we don't know what that Magic was or is? Can we seperate the wheat from the chaff, the Magic from the problems? I think we have to. Only then can we understand how the problems effect different people's Magic. Join in the Benchmarking the Disney Magic thread and tell us what Magic it is frozen body parts are drawn to Disney for. Everyone join in - maybe that can help us all understand one another a wee bit better, because I truely belive we are not that far apart :).

[YoHo]

And so once again, we've decided that "MAgic" is fully subjective, and thus really we have nothing to talk about any more.

MAgic in the Context of this discussion CANNOT be subjective if we are to have a conversation or debate. Perhaps we need a pinned thread that defines these terms in a way that we can all agree on so that we can actually have a constructive conversation.

There is a lot of Subjectivity here to begin with I know people that hated Disney World and Land well before the current administration was involved. Still, There is no subjectivity in what Walt Disney and his successors did to maintain that magic. The fact that even car 1 people speak in terms of negative terms. (nothing has harmed the magic as opposed to these tings have improved the magic) is a major fundimental change.

[DisneyKidds]

As much as one would like to box it up and package it, the Magic is always going to be fully subjective as everyone takes something different away from a WDW experience. Was it ever decided that it wasn't (remember, I'm somewhat new to this board)? Has anyone ever submitted a definition of Magic that all agree on, if that is even possible? As you can see from the Benchmarking thread (not many responses yet) no two people have the same Magic.

Unfortunately, so many discussions get melded and intertwined that they do become ineffective. So much emphasis has been placed on the cars, which are all about the subjective Magic. Perhaps to have an effective discussion on certain things we need to get out of the cars and stop shouting back and forth as we hurtle down the Disney highway at 65 mph. Perhaps we need to better define the discussions and remove the Magic from the fray. I was toying with another new thread regarding the Pilfering and Proliferation of WDW in the Post Walt Era. Such a thread could be used to discuss problems, issues, adds, deletes, neglect, etc, and how it effects the general experience without asking how it effects the Magic. For instance, if hours are cut it affects all of our experiences in some way. However, it doesn't effect what I see as the Magic. The experience and the Magic are two different things, yet we talk about them as one in the same. Discussions might be a bit shorter (i.e. - shorter hours suck because you have less time in the park, I agree, end of discussion or AK has fewer rides than MK because they didn't build BK, I agree, end of discussion, etc.) but may be more effective.

I do find the carpool discussions, Magic and all, to be very interesting and they can continue. However, we all need to be open to the fact that what diminishes the Magic for one might not diminish it for another. I would love for people to understand how I can see all the problems but still maintain the Magic is just as strong for me. If you look at what makes the Magic for me perhaps you'd see that. I'd love to learn the same about others. Ultimately I think it can add to all our Magic.

[Lesley]

DisneyKidds, you are entirely missing the point....

I was referring to AK not being a work of art in itself...as the other Disney parks are. I know there is plenty of art within the part....its one of the things I love about it.....but its not the same at all.

The Disney Park as an art form provides an immersive experience with many different yet cohesively themed options for guests. AK has many of the facets of this, yet falls short of being cohesive and complete (as a work of art....I'm not referring to how many hours one can spend or how many $) There are too many different ideas in the park that don't fit together into one "work" as of yet....BK is sort of a "missing link" between the elements that they already have. They may decide to go in another direction....but if they don't find a different link to pull it all together the park will forever remain just a theme park and not a complete work of art.

Does anyone at all get what I'm saying? Probably not...oh well......I've learned not to expect to be understood!

[Lesley]

So you're saying the experience is not "the Magic"? Or that "magic" is not simply a way of defining the experience?

Hmmmm......

[DisneyKidds]

Lesley - I get what you are saying so please don't pull your hair out ;). However, this is one of those agree to disagree areas I think. While BK would be nice and add to the experience, I feel (for my family and a few others) AK is effective without it. I guess what I got caught up in was that I thought you were agreeing that Disney was trying to 'train' us to forget about art and just 'settle' for a 'theme park'. I don't get the impression that you really feel that way. While the park may not have jelled yet, it appears you agree they were going for art. I apologize if my understanding was mistaken. :D

[YoHo]

In fact, we have had this discussion before. And I believe some conclusions were drawn although I've been out of it a while.

Here is the logic. Obviously the magic is created and cannot be fully subjective, because then why go to WDW?

You go to Walt Disney World, because they provide you something. The Walt Disney company now and always has defined this as magic. Since Disney says they provide you magic, it cannot be subjective.
Truth be told if magic is completely subjective, then I suggest not spending so much money on a Disney Vacation, because you could get that just about anywhere. No, the "Magic" is a substance that can and Should be defined. Nobody talks about the MAgic at Six Flaggs. Oh there are people that love the parks and would rather go to Six Flaggs then Disney, but nobody uses such a powerful term as magic to describe the expireance. that in and of itself means Disney is providing it and means it can be quantified.
The real difference is how much objective magic does and individual need to subjectivly feel the Magic.

Yes, Shorter hours reduce the magic, For landbaron, that was it, that was his breaking point. for others, that was no big thing.

There is also the concept that Disney provides magic in ways that certain people don't need it, again with landbaron, the park hours and the Way those hours were structured and how the company treated guests at the end of the night was a fundimental part of the magic for him. For sayCaptainPeter Crook Pirate, it was not so important for whatever reason.

For me, its the Alternate Transportation. For GCurling it was in part Surprise mornings.

Each of these things are fully a quantifiable magic. The difference is the preceived Value of that magic.

The current administration is in the buisness of reducing the Magic to a "happy" medium where the preceived magic of say 80% of the Visitors is still high while those lost in the shuffle have a minimal effect on the bottom line.

The way Disney used to do things and the way (IMO) they should always do things is to Provide Magic to an exceedingly high level and Satisfy 99.99% of their guests. Car 3 simply should never have existed. The required Magic for You to have a magical expireance as compared to me should not enter into the equation.

[DisneyKidds]

So you're saying the experience is not "the Magic"? Or that "magic" is not simply a way of defining the experience?

Now let me tear my hair out trying to explain this....but YES!!!!!

Keep in mind, the Magic is what makes a Disney experience different form a (insert other theme park) experience.

Here is the Disney 'experience' (VERY abbrviated version):

I enter the MK and stroll down the Main St. and hit the central hub. The park opened at X and will close at X. I ride many different cool rides, I wait in lines, I see a variety of good shows, have a decent meal, see some fireworks, and leave the park.

Here is the (insert other theme park) 'experience' (VERY abbreviated version:

I enter IOA and stroll down the main entrance and hit the central hub. The park opened at X and will close at X. I ride many different cool rides, I wait in lines, I see a variety of good shows, have a decent meal, see some fireworks, and leave the park.

What is different about the 'experience'? Well, different rides and shows, but is that what makes Disney different? Not for me. The difference is the 'Magic', and the 'Magic' is something unique and individual I take away from the Disney 'experience' vs. the Busch Gardens 'experience'.

Am I making any sense here? All to often it seems I don't :sad:.

Let me go a bit further with this with a very simple example. If the hours at the MK change and now they close at 10 instead of midnight the 'experience' is changed, but is the 'Magic'. No, not for me, because my Magic is the mystical journey I take from the real world to the Disney world when I arrive. Yeah, I may spend a couple hours less in the Disney world, but I am still transported to another time and place, away from my real world cares for just a short time. With me?

So yes, I think the 'experience' and the 'Magic' have to be two different things. Otherwise, a lot of people would let the diminished 'expereince' keep them from going. But they don't because there is something more, something 'Magic', that seperates one 'experience' from another. We all pretty much have the same 'experience' but we each take away different 'Magic'.

I'll return to beat my head agaist the wall later if I've lost you :crazy:.

[DisneyKidds]

YoHo - I'm just not with you. You say the Magic is objective, yet I have yet to see anyone define it, bottle it up and sell it. You say it is subjective yet agree that a change illicits a different reaction in one person than it does in another as far as the Magic is concerned. Did Walt say Magic equals keeping the parks open until midnight? Did he say it was letting people in an hour early (btw - did EE even exist during Walt's time)? Did Walt ever indicate that the Magic had anything to do with hours? or transportation? or whatever? Walt created the 'Happiest Place on Earth' but did he say THIS HERE is what makes each person happy? The Magic is the result of a combination of so many different things on so many different level that I doubt it could ever be quantified. That is why they call it Magic. Magic by it's nature is something that cannot be explained, and in the theme park world only Disney has it.

Maybe you need to call it 'Magic (trademark)', or maybe people use the term Magic too lightly. But still, where in the Disney handbook does it say THIS is the Magic. It is just don't believe it is that simple.

[YoHo]

Actually, Walt had Firm beliefs about every single aspect of his park and how it affected the magic. Hours were not Cut for profits sake, etc.

Walt Created the Happiest Place on Earth By making Darn good and sure to look in to every Detail so that the SUbjective could be ignored.

The fact is that every single aspect of a Disney park from the Paint on a building to the Smile on a CM to the Food on you're plate is an objective aspect of the MAgic of Disney.

The Subjective part is what you the individual guest takes from the expireance.

In other words there are parts of the Disney Magic that you will never ever expireance, because you are not wired to notice them. Another will see them, but not notice something that deeply affects the magic for you.


The Magic isn't an elixer to be sold, it is a buisness concept that should apply to every single solitary aspect of the Disney Parks from The greatest E-ticket to the lowliest flower. THAT is what creates the magic. Call its Attention to detail on a gigantic scale and yes, that is what Walt was all about. That's what Walt screemed and yelled about. That's what caused him to fire CMs. That's what caused him to change Pirates from a walking tour to a boat ride. etc.

It is all quantifieable.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Am I making any sense here? Yes, you are. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that the root of the frustration in this case is that, even though we understand what you are saying, we don't care about the particular question you are answering. I think there are people trying to get you to answer a slightly different but related question, one that we have not seen answered.

I feel that you keep answering the question "Does DisneyKidds like WDW?" I think that's the question you answered when you picked your Car. And that's well and good, except that it degenerates the Cars into a simple and subjective rating system: How much do you like Disney, 1 is most, 2 is medium, 3 is least.

Beyond tallying the vote and marvelling over the wide range of experiences wedging themselves into a few strata, making the Cars a measure of how much one loves Disney simply gets us nowhere. No one wants to minimize how much Disney means to you, and as you already seen, several people will fight you if they think you're minimizing what Disney means to them.

If the Cars measure _our_ input to the Magic equation, there's no point for anyone to be here other than to see their own pretty typing, because everyone's opinion is theirs and just you shut up about it. There's nothing but hot air exchanged.

If the Cars measure _Disney's_ input to the Magic equation, there's room to discuss the effort and techniques involved. There's actual meat, there.

Which way we headed, gang?

-WFH

[hopemax]

The Magic is the result of a combination of so many different things on so many different level that I doubt it could ever be quantified.

I agree with the first part, but not the second. I think the "Magic" can be quantified, but that people would just sit back and call it "magic" then go through the trouble of sitting down and working it out.

Feeling "magic" is just a reaction. And the only thing you need to know to create "magic" is to push people's buttons. And for all the many ways people are different, the majority of us all react in a more or less same way under certain circumstances. The key words are "majority" and "more or less." All that's required is to get people to respond within a certain "zone" it doesn't require that each person's response be identical.

The "Magic" is like a percale sheet. Every thread of the 300 ct. fabric can be assigned a tag. All are woven together to form a sort of a "solid" object. And sure you can remove a thread here or there without really affecting the appearance or functionality of the sheet. But remove too many, and the sheet starts to appear ratty and does affect it's functionality. The question becomes then, if you found your kids playing with the sheet and pulling out the threads, do you

1. Tell the kids to knock it off, ASAP because you recognize that if they keep it up that sheet isn't going to be useful anymore.

2. Recognize that at the moment the sheet is still useful, and close the door without telling the kids they are doing anything wrong.

Did Walt ever indicate that the Magic had anything to do with hours?

Actually, yes. During DL's early years, Walt couldn't do everything "his way" in the park. He had organized a group of sponsers to fund the Tomorrowland attractions, and run them. The sponsers had other ideas about good business and would operate their spaces at hours less than DL's. Walt was extremely pissed off and dumped many of those sponsers as soon as the sponsorship agreement ended. Some of those sponsers wanted to renew their relationship with the park, but Walt turned both them and their "free" money away. Because in his mind it was more important that everything within the park be open. Source: "The Nickel Tour."

[YoHo]

The "Magic" is like a percale sheet. Every thread of the 300 ct. fabric can be assigned a tag. All are woven together to form a sort of a "solid" object. And sure you can remove a thread here or there without really affecting the appearance or functionality of the sheet. But remove too many, and the sheet starts to appear ratty and does affect it's functionality. The question becomes then, if you found your kids playing with the sheet and pulling out the threads, do you


This is exactly What I'm saying. The magic is the sum of the parts and each Magic Thread pulled out alters the Whole. Some will notice it, others will not.

[DisneyKidds]

In other words there are parts of the Disney Magic that you will never ever experience, because you are not wired to notice them. Another will see them, but not notice something that deeply affects the magic for you.

You seem to think people don't comprehend this, yet you are wrong. If you notice EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) and are not blinded by other things, you can continue to see the Magic, even if a thread gets pulled out. It is that all encompasing layering, the incredible detail that Walt insisted on that makes the Magic. So Dino Rama stinks, that doesn't undermine the intricate layers of detail that already were placed in the AK. Fine, quantify it as the paint, the sidewalk, this ride, that tree, this smell, that light, those shows, these CM, that meal, this fountain, etc. Yes, ok, you can quantify it, but the list would be a million entries long. So they may not have added many entires recently (not that I agree), and they have only erased a few. All of a sudden, because the threads that rubbed you the right way were pulled out anyone who doesn't feel the same way is just going by feeling, or perception - they are ignorant to the real issues of CREATION and destruction. I respectfully disagree.

If the Cars measure _Disney's_ input to the Magic equation, there's room to discuss the effort and techniques involved. There's actual meat, there.

I don't see much of this. Some think AK is a stinker, with fact and opinion to back it up. Some think AK is really good, with fact and opinion to back it up. Yet those who see good things CREATED there are brow beaten because we are in the slight minority.

I think there are people trying to get you to answer a slightly different but related question, one that we have not seen answered.

Please enlighten me as to what this qustion is so I may answer it the way you like.

Some will notice it, others will not.

I figured when the day came that someone indicated that some people just weren't capable of seeing IT, it was time for a break.

Oh Captain, Captain, where are you? Let me look for him over here.

[hopemax]

I figured when the day came that someone indicated that some people just weren't capable of seeing IT, it was time for a break.

I can't stop people from feeling offended if they want to, but...

If you attend a football game with 29,999 other fans do you expect yourself to be able to describe all of those other people?

I would guess you don't. And I doubt that you would feel offended if someone said they were at the game and ran into your neighbor, but you didn't see them. You would chalk it up to the size of the stadium and the fact that you simply can't see all 29,999 people.

IT is like the packed stadium, made up by thousands of pieces, so why get bent out of shape when someone says there are parts of IT you may not have seen?

[DisneyKidds]

Hopemax - no offense taken. This is only a Disney discussion board after all and I have a few more important things to worry about than to become offended here. Just that I need to focus on some of those other things for a bit.

As to seeing IT, I wholeheartedly agree with not being able to see every little thing, every person in the stadium. However, when someone implies I'm watching a different game because I don't know as much about football, well that is a different story.

[YoHo]

even if a thread gets pulled out. It is
that all encompasing layering, the incredible detail that Walt insisted on that makes the Magic. So Dino Rama
stinks, that doesn't undermine the intricate layers of detail that already were placed in the AK.

No, but it is like a Black Thread amidst and All White blanket.

So they may not have added many
entires recently (not that I agree), and they have only erased a few. All of a sudden, because the threads that
rubbed you the right way were pulled out anyone who doesn't feel the same way is just going by feeling, or
perception - they are ignorant to the real issues of CREATION and destruction. I respectfully disagree.

You may Disagree, but this is in fact the point.

It isn't that Disney pulled a few strings out here and there, that is just a catalyst. It is the Fear that Disney is simply going to keep pulling and pulling until there is nothing left, because the people in charge are (Please Choose: Incompitant, Evil, money grubbing, all of the above).

People in Car 3 (and in fact Car 2) are saying LOOK OUT, because Disney the Company doesn't care any more about Disney the Magic. And someday, you too could be in car 3.
I am not in Car 3, but I will say that Disney The company has done little to nothing in the past 3 or so years that makes me thin that they are putting the cloth back together again. Disney "The Company" is still ripping it out Thread by Thread.

Where is Landbaron? He loves a good analogy.

However, when someone implies I'm watching a different game because I don't know as much about football, well

I have not been in this discussion long so I pray you don't mean me, but most of the People here are funloving and would never suggest such a thing. Tempers do run High though after all, we have all adopted Disney as are own.

[DisneyKidds]

Reaching......groping.....stretching for that limb......don't get sucked back in........Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh........................ .....

You may Disagree, but this is in fact the point.

YoHo, please tell me you want to rethink this one. It does appear you are saying that those in Car #1 are ingnorant on the subject at hand.

I have not been in this discussion long so I pray you don't mean me, but most of the People here are funloving and would never suggest such a thing.

I had not been referring to you. However, if you are really saying what it is you just said.... well I might have to reconsider.

[YoHo]

Well, that is in fact the Point that Car 3 people were trying to make. What I meant to say is that you may disagree that it is a valid conclusion to be drawn, ie, you are in Car 1, but that is none the less the Argument at hand.
The point is that just because what floats your magic bubble has not been affected at all does not mean that fears of the Car 3 people are invalid. Its not a negative thing. It's the football game.


Well, I've probably just dug my hole deeper. I'm not a mean guy, REally I'm not!

Its not about Ignorance per se' its about observing something that has yet to affect you in an objective way. (Take someone elses magic as your own as it were.)

[DisneyKidds]

YoHo., YoHo, YoHo, Yeeeoww.....

No, you are not mean. However, I will point out this one subtle difference that may never have come thru (before I run to catch a train).

The point is that just because what floats your magic bubble has not been affected at all does not mean that fears of the Car 3 people are invalid.

I would never presume to say your fears were not valid when it comes to the Magic you derive from the Magic that has been created and presented (a subject on which we have differing opinions). You, on the other hand seem to be invalidating the Car #1 lack of fear and dismissing it as the incoherent babblings of an ingnorant, dare I say, apologists.

Dig, dig, dig - the holes get deeper.

Sclock, Slurp, Suck....... as I try to pull my shoes out of the muck.

[YoHo]

Hey now, I don't like being accused of Car 3 status.


In my defense, I have never accused anyone of being an apologist. and I only call people ignorant when they talk about Eisner's Reputation and skills at handling Studio Finances, since there is absolutly zero evidence to back that up at all.

BUT, by definition, the opinion I expressed, the opinion of Cars 2&3 must state that the opinion of Car 1 is Wrong. The "Magic" as defined in the Carpool thread is the Objective not the subjective. It has to be logically. The difference is that for some, the Subjective and the objective have become one and it is gone.

If I feel that the Magic is fading, that the Thread is being pulled out of the cloth even as we speak, then logically, I cannot agree, that the MAgic is as strong as ever, that the cloth is still whole and undamaged.
We could agree to disagree on it all, but that would pretty much shut down all debate. Plus, I've never seen an instance where statements like that lasted for more then a few days on this board.

So logically, I simply cannot agree with what Car 1 thinks on this subject. And When the subject comes up I will feel free to disagree strongly. While also attempting to remain as civil as possible, because it makes things easier if and when I ever actually make it to a Dis Rumours meet.

[airlarry!]

Voices cackle in the background as Yoho! presses 'submit.'

"He is dawdling, yes, but he is inching ever closer to the Dark Side."

"Agreed. He will be one of us soon. He only has to admit it."

"Yes, yes, yes, we have watched this one these last few years, and he will soon be another backseat driver in Car Three........"

[YoHo]

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Soon I will be the Most Powerful Car Three Jedi Ever!!!

It's all Peter Pirate's Fault, He's Holding me Back!

[DVC-Landbaron]

YoHo
Where is Landbaron? He loves a good analogy.Reporting for duty, SIR!!! (And you are right. I does loves them analogies!!)I am not in Car 3, but I will say that Disney The Company has done little to nothing in the past 3 or so years that makes me think that they are putting the cloth back together again. Disney "The Company" is still ripping it out Thread by Thread.That is the point!! Perfect, Mr. YoHo!! Well said.

If it were some random act, an anomaly or just some stupidity I could be very happy leaping between cars #2 and 1. BUT IT IS NOT!!! The company, our company, the Disney company, is doing it intentionally and with deliberate action. They themselves are soiling and picking apart the cloth. So even if it doesn’t affect your magic directly, you should be concerned. It is only a matter of time before what you hold dear in the Disney Company is no longer there! Just to stomp all over Greg's noble efforts, I will now throw around Car analogies like crazy.Man!! This was the first post I read after work today. I nearly died!! Thanks for the laugh!!I believe the 'Baron has "Car #3" tattooed across his forehead...Yes!! In a way I hope Ei$ner never leaves. I hear tattoo removal is very painful!!!But still, where in the Disney handbook does it say THIS is the Magic. It is just don't believe it is that simple.I keep telling you to read about Walt. It’s all there. The blueprint for the magic is in those stories. READ THEM!!!!If you notice EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) and are not blinded by other things, you can continue to see the Magic, even if a thread gets pulled out.But that thread diminishes the whole!! AND, more importantly, who’s doing the pulling? If it is coming from within, then we are in grave danger!! “GRAVE” danger? Is there any other kind? (Obscure movie reference. Anybody?)


ps: YoHo! You've been riding shotgun with me for a long time now. You just didn't know it!!!! ;)

[raidermatt]

...“GRAVE” danger? Is there any other kind? (Obscure movie reference. Anybody?)

Lord Baron, to this, I can only say: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[Walt's Frozen Head]

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! No truth-handler, you!

-WFH

[YoHo]

I think I'm entitled to the Truth.

[Lesley]

DisneyKidds...didn't want to leave you hanging....I understand perfectly what you are saying. I just don't happen to agree.

No time to get involved further here....I'm heading off to WDW tonight and have many things to do!

Love the sheet analogy.....to add one little bit to it.... I think we're down quite a bit on that thread count, and things like DinoRama aren't adding black threads....they are adding a horrible, scratchy, screened-on print on top of the sheet. Adding black threads would be too costly and would keep the sheet feeling luxurious. Keep taking away threads and adding more printing and the sheet becomes unpleasant. (much like my ds's Star Wars sheets which were so abominably scratchy when we got them that he couldn't sleep on them)

Ok, gotta go.....

[raidermatt]

Awhile back in this thread (and in other threads), the cryogenic cranium ;) made some very good points about differentiating between what "I" like and what the overall trend is.

That's why describing how we feel when we walk down Main Street, and using that to say the Magic is as strong as ever doesn't really carry much weight. Sure, it carries a lot of weight when we decide whether to vacation in WDW or Borabora, but not in these debates.

The car 3'ers (there's that nasty label again...) make a very good point when they say we have to look at the total gains and takeaway's, and not just what we care about. For example, I never used EE, and probably never would have, but I have to admit that it still must be recognized when we discuss overall mgmt decisions. Same with the Mickey head butter that used to be falling out of the sky at WDW.

However, when I say that the Magic hasn't faded (or at least hasn't faded enough to move me to car 2), I'm not basing that only on what I like; I truly am taking into consideration other things that have happened. Its just that I'm also trying to consider what impact these things (and others) have had on ALL WDW guests, not just our fun-loving little community here on the R&N board, or even on the DIS.

So while I understand the lack of Mickey head butter can be a significant hit to a Disney afficianado, how big a hit is it in the big picture?

EE has to be seen as a bigger hit, but still, in the big picture, how many WDW guests miss it? Is it a takeaway? ABSOLUTELY! But is it a bigger takeaway than FastPass is a gain? Not even close.

So when I say I am in car 1, I am not ignoring the impact on others, but rather am trying to keep things in perspective, and consider the true big picture that includes ALL WDW guests, not just my friends here on the DIS.

I don't like the direction some of the decisions are taking, I just don't think enough damage has been done to truly fade the Magic. That doesn't mean I won't care until its too late. On the contrary, I let Disney know about things I don't agree with. If they were my decisions to make, I'm sure I'd be doing some things differently. But in my truly best effort to remain objective, I don't see the overall damage that some here see. So, I'm in car 1.25. I see zero to minimal Magic being faded, but I do see the possibility that current mgmt could do some real damage in the future, if trends continue as they have been.

[DVC-Landbaron]

So while I understand the lack of Mickey head butter can be a significant hit to a Disney aficionado, how big a hit is it in the big picture?

EE has to be seen as a bigger hit, but still, in the big picture…
NO!! They are both equally as important!! I know that’s a hard thing to understand, but it is really what I believe. It’s like dropping a piece of lead and a piece of balsa wood from a building at the same time. It would seem that the lead should fall faster. But they both fall with the same speed!! And I contend that the butter and EE are equal!! They are equal to themselves and they are equal to the elimination of 20K with no replacement.

I will agree that EE has a much bigger impact on someone’s vacation and magic quotient than a pad of butter, but in the ‘big picture’ they are the same. One is no more significant than the other. They are representative of the change in philosophy that I’m always talking about. In fact, in my mind, the pad might be more important because it goes to those little details that set Disney apart from the rest. All amusement parks have rides that they close here and there. And some my initiate perks for special guests that they may cancel. But hardly anyone in the world has the minute details that Disney does, as represented by the stinking butter!!

So when they take away the butter, or the chocolates or use decorations instead of theme or put hideous icons on top of spaceship earth, or ruin the entrance of EPCOT with a cheap hustle or ALWAYS use primary colors, or… (I think you get the picture) I feel the magic fading much faster than when they close CoP or don’t add an E-Ticket fast enough. And if you feel the same way, do yourself a favor. Don’t try to explain it lightly. Hardly anyone will understand it!!

And when you look at some of these things you also have to look behind the spin. You mentioned that fastpass was a great benefit. Well, I’m not so sure on the face of it, but that’s not my point. Nevertheless, I think we have to examine the motivation behind the program. Was it solely to relive the guest of those tired, long lines? Or was the primary motivation to sell more Mickey ice cream bars and plush toys?

Now let’s look at the butter. What was the prime motivating force behind that? I suppose one could be a cynical as possible and claim that it advertised the brand, but I really don’t think so. I think some Imagineer somewhere or an executive with a little vision thought it would be nice for the diner guests! It is another example of what sets Disney apart. That little Disney ‘touch’ that we all love. Therefore, in the ‘big picture’ outlook, that little pad of butter is much more important than an e-ticket or fastpass or almost anything else you care to mention. It’s the live tree in the middle of an indoor restaurant, or an expensive chandelier in a burger joint (see benchmarking the magic thread). They certainly didn’t have to do it. But they did it anyway!!!

Am I making any sense?




BTW: 10 points Sir Raider for being the first to answer the movie reference!!

[airlarry!]

Sir Baron, we can grapple all we want with the hows and whys of these decisions, but it comes down to an easy explanation, and I believe Monsieur AV would back me up.

Ei$ner's decision to repeatedly ask for 10/10 -- that is 10% cuts in budget with 10% growth in profit -- means that our favorite little touches at Disney are sometimes the first to go. That includes the individual newsletters that we used to get at the themed resorts, that talked resorts and what was happening but it was typed up like a themed 'newspaper' tied to that report. Those are long gone now, a victim of 10/10 for the resorts.

On the one hand, I would anticipate that some would argue that without certain cuts, jobs may be lost, capital improvements can't be made, etc. They believe it to be an evil but necessary step in maintaing the status quo. Theirs is a valid and arguable point.

I just don't happen to agree. I am biased, yes, but I believe that when a CEO is paid in compensation that is directly affected by the stock price, and the **future** bottom line is what the stock market rewards or punishes the stock, then it is easy to see that Ei$ner was, at least in part, selfishly asking each division to cut things like MHB (Mickey Head Butter) or resort newsletters or magic shops or so many other little things in an effort to boost the stock price--to his gain of course.

At what expense? Car #1 argues that these changes are ice cubes in the water. Car #2 gets worried, but figures thinks are ice sheets that will be avoided. Car #3 says it is an indication that in the future, maybe even the near future, cuts like these are the tip of the iceberg.

The 'training to settle' comes in the promises Ei$ner makes that each year is a bad year and the company needs these cuts to survive. Many of us want to believe that he is telling the truth, and next year we will see the old Disney ways returned. We just forget all the sacrifices Walt made to ensure that his products were made with quality and care every chance he could.

[Sandy Fisher]

Once again I find myself reading 2+ pages to catch up.
YoHo, I must say you finally defined what I've been trying to tell myself is missing. Somebody somewhere is removing threads. And I'm one of the Disney fans who worries that it will continue. Are they replacing the good threads with something "not quite" the same quality? Or are they not replacing them at all, which eventually will weaken the fabric? Could be some of each.
But I agree that all the little things, the special touches that go unnoticed by so many, are important and are part of the magic.
Everyone sees the magic differently and puts their own spin on things according to where they are in life.
Months ago someone mentioned that if CoP had been drawing enough people it wouldn't have closed, temporarily or permanently. A reply (and I can't recall who posted it) said "But what about all the families who never saw it?" And I got to thinking that there are people going to WDW for the first time every day. Think what they've missed - and they won't know that kind of magic - Horizons, CoP, Motion, Figment and Dreamfinder, the butter pats, early entry, late-night closings, and on and on.
It would be nice (but unlikely to happen) if someone with believable clout would reassure the faithful that the magic will remain strong and visible and won't be chipped away piece by piece or thread by thread.
:cool:

[Samirella]

Originally posted by gcurling

Disney-MGM studios has seemed to be a haphazard, constantly changing (isn't Beauty and the Beast in it's third home right now) layout.



Beauty and the Beast has only been in Theater of the Stars and Backlot Theater. Theater of the Stars used to be where Sunset Boulevard meets Hollywood Boulevard before Sunset was built. They just moved it back once the area was built.