A case of Disney®? You be the judge!

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hello all!!

I found this little tid-bit on another site. I have to admit that I really don’t understand much of this ‘Celebration’ thing. Perhaps someone can clue me in.

I’ve heard that some WDW property was sold off and that they have really strict codes. I went there when it first opened and again to finalize more DVC points a couple years ago. Went on the tour and watched the film. Very interesting. But very “Stepford” like. I really didn’t care for it much. Kind of like, “A nice to place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there”.

So anyway, here I am reading about this place, and my mind started to wander to my DVC interest. I bought it sight unseen. Because it was Disney!! I trusted Disney to always do the right thing. I knew it may be just slightly more expensive than most other timeshares, but I knew it would always have that Disney quality that I had come to expect and love!!!! Needless to say to anyone who’s read anything I’ve written, I would not do it again, knowing what I know now about Disney. That’s not to say I’ve been disappointed in my DVC. Quite the contrary. But I wonder how many people bought into Disney’s Celebration because they were relying on Disney’s fifty year history and really were blind to the Ei$ner factor. I think their eyes may be opened now! (hmmm, Is this the “BRAND” thing that AV is always on about!!! ;))In Celebration, some are losing faith in Disney Mike Thomas
Published June 20, 2002

When considering a move a few years ago, I looked at Celebration.

I could put up with the ridicule from my colleagues. I could put up with bylaws dictating that all curtains exposed to the street be white.

But I couldn't get over Osceola.

I would not plunk down my life savings on a small enclave of "new urbanism" surrounded by old tourism. Lurking just outside the nice neighborhoods and chic (if completely impractical) downtown was U.S. Highway 192 in all its gaudiness.

Could Celebration survive, long term, in the very heart of Osceola's low-income service economy? Once the novelty wore off, would demand stay strong for a community that is across the street from Water Mania?

Or would the outside seep in and eventually smother new urbanism, sending its practitioners to more secure locations, such as the various Parks -- College, Thornton, Winter and Baldwin.

Celebration has indeed held its own. The reason is Disney. The same Disney that spawned the blight on U.S. 192 also provided its residents a psychological barrier against it.

Trust the name Disney.

Now some residents wonder how far to take this trust.

Disney is asking Osceola County for permission to almost double the number of hotel rooms allowed in Celebration, from 1,039 to 2,039. It also wants to put in 150 time-share units. Some residents feel betrayed.

"We were sold on the original statement that 'Celebration will be a place where you can live and work,' " wrote resident Rod Owens in a flier to his neighbors. "We invested our hard-earned money in that concept. We want to be a town, not a vacation destination."

Imagine people moving to Interstate 4 and U.S. 192 and being shocked at the possibility of hotels nearby. But Disney's customers have fallen so much in love with Disney's vision that they are ready to battle Disney to protect it.

The creator of Celebration now is viewed as its greatest threat.

It's a hot topic on a Celebration message board on the Internet.

"The bottom line for The Celebration Company [Disney] is that this is really all about money," wrote one resident. "They can sell hotels real easy. They can't sell office buildings as easy and for as much money. The residents are then left to deal with the consequences."

In fact, the market for office space is weak all across Central Florida. Some office buildings at Celebration appear almost empty. Even so, residents view office space as the long-term key to higher-paying jobs that will attract affluent, stable professionals into the community. "Not many hotel workers can afford to live in Celebration," Owens said in his flier.

Disney's Celebration manager Perry J. Reader sent out a letter telling residents to trust Disney's commitment to Celebration.

"We believe that the mixed-use sites and [a planned] luxury resort will complement Celebration," he wrote. He went on to say that Disney might request more changes in the future.

Given Disney's overriding commitment to making money, that kicker would set off my alarm bell if I had bought into Celebration.

This community's value is based on its isolation from that which surrounds it. Each hotel and time share, no matter how luxurious, blurs the boundary.

Mike Thomas can be reached at 407-420-5525 or
mthomas@orlandosentinel.com.

[Bob O]

Their was also another article about this in the Orl. Sent. If i lived in Celebration i would be highly upset and would distrust the disney company more. How can you have a sense of a "community" if you are just going to add more hotels and times shares. A communtiy needs full time residents and not part time residents. It seems disney again is going back on there word and i hope the people fight back as good as they can, and disney has shown by the comment they made in the article they dont care in the least about what the residents want!! No wonder reedy creek only has company hacks as voting members!

[HorizonsFan]

Did Disney break any zoning laws or deed restrictions? Did Disney put restrictions in the deeds to limit the use of the property?
Did Disney build Celebration out of a sense of wanting to help build a community or did they build it to sell property?
Did people really read what they were buying?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Dave. I think you’re missing the point. The idea, clear to every, was that this was to be a community not another amusement park or resort area. I’m sure that legally they are well within their rights. But it really goes beyond legal, doesn’t it? Shouldn’t there be some trust built after doing business with a company for forty odd years? Or more if you count the films. Especially one like Disney used to be. I know I don’t trust companies as far as I can throw them. But somehow I always viewed Disney as different. More of a friend than a company. It is why I bought the Vacation Club without so much as a once over. I trusted Disney.

STUPID ME!!!

[DisneyKidds]

Boy Baron - I'm glad your headed down for a dusting soon :). Detecting a negativity level that tells me you may hit Car #4 if anything hits you the wrong way on your trip. Close your eyes, click your heels together and say - 'there's no place like the MK, there's no place like the MK' ;).

[DVC-Landbaron]

I make no judgments about Celebration. I’m merely equating it with my DVC interest. I bought it knowing that Disney would not let me down. That what their sales people said, whether in the documents or not, was absolute gospel. After all, Disney was… well… Disney!!!

It wasn’t until I found the DIS DVC Board that my eyes were opened. And for as much as Rich can get on peoples nerves and be plain WRONG on a lot of issues, there is one that he is right on the money. The sales force, by and large, at least mine, have a hard time with the truth!!! But I really think it goes further than that. I think it comes from the top. Maybe not Ei$ner top, but way higher up than a salesperson for DVC.

We were told, point blank, that pool hopping would never end. That as new resorts were added we would have the right to pool hop there too. Well! I don’t need to tell you that if it wasn’t a lie then, it is now.

But I’m really not blaming Disney for it. I blame myself. There’s no way in the world I would ever have been sooooo dumb with another company. I would have been looking for sharks and loopholes. But Instead, I clearly remember turning to my wife at one point after she was questioning the future and saying, “Come on! It’s Disney! How bad can it get!!!??”

Well it certainly isn’t bad (YET!). But it also certainly what was promised!!!

And I’m just wondering if the people who bought into Celebration feel the same. That’s all. No car #4 for me. I’m still going. AND LOVING IT!!

[HorizonsFan]

Dave. I think you’re missing the point.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time...
The idea, clear to every, was that this was to be a community not another amusement park or resort area.
I don't think Disney is trying to turn Celebration into either. I don't thing anyone's talking about building The Venitian Celebration or putting a spinner on the village green. I've ridden around in Celebration. There is plenty of room near the highway to put a resort and some timeshare units that complement the surroundings without intruding on Celebration's "isolated" feel. For what it's worth, I didn't think it was all that isolated...
Shouldn’t there be some trust built after doing business with a company for forty odd years? Or more if you count the films.
Absolutely. When I go to WDW or to a Disney movie, I trust that I'll be treated well and be entertained in a unique way. I'm almost never disappointed (that "almost" is why I'm now in Car 2). In a real estate deal, I don't trust anyone but my lawyer.
I know I don’t trust companies as far as I can throw them. But somehow I always viewed Disney as different. More of a friend than a company. It is why I bought the Vacation Club without so much as a once over. I trusted Disney.
When I bought DVC, I trusted Disney to keep the parks going for the following 42 years. My lawyer told me exactly what I was buying.
Disney has provided me with many wonderful moments and (hopefully) will provide me with many more. In many ways, they are like a close friend. But honestly, if I bought a house from my best friend Jake, my lawyer would be looking at the paperwork, and I'd know what I was signing. In the case of Celebration, if people wanted to invest in a community with standards that couldn't be changed, they should have made sure that what they wanted was spelled out in writing. Did Disney lie or were the plans for the types of businesses to be located within Celebration changed based on economics? I'm inclined to go with the latter...

[Bob O]

Another example of how disney apologists will give disne a break on anything they do!!!
Disney promised the people a unique community with excellant schools(failed greatly), a place with a sense of community kind of how things were in a bygone era, one that didnt include thousands of hotel rooms and timeshares, not a extension of what is already available at the theme parks. And people believed disney, thought they were trustworthy, and they may have been at one time but certainly arent at this time. If i remember correctly the cheapest house is $250,000, not the typical place you find what disney is now trying to foist on the community. Another example how disney will screw ALL of their customers in a attempt to wring out a couple more dollars.
You would think that some day they would develop some shame over what they are CURRENTLY willing to do. The other article in the Orlando Sentinel quoted more residents and their feeling on how they are being screwed.
Lets just hope the little guy can win, if not in the court, then via the court of public opinion!

[HorizonsFan]

Another example of how disney apologists will give disne a break on anything they do!!!
Bob, if you read ALL of my post, you'll see that I'm in Car 2. I see things changing and I don't like them all.
Park hours and Mickey butter are one thing, real estate sales are another thing completely. I don't apologize for Disney, I simply have no sympathy for people who take ANYONE'S spoken word as the truth without reading what they're signing or making sure that what they were promised is IN WRITING.
That's all...

[Bob O]

Well has anybody here seen what disney gave them in writing??? I havent but from the article mentioned in this post and others i have read that has quoted the residents they believe that what is being done wasnt what they were told or agreed to when they made their purchase. Their are also two books on the experiment of Celebration that i have read part of that go in great detail about what it was promised to be and what it has become, where disney made great promises on having a great education plan as a example and how they never put forth the money to make it work and ended up getting rid of it in a couple of years. In some ways not alot different than lets say AK or DCA, except in this case people trusted disney and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars based on trust rather than a day of admission to a theme park.
And the same folks who claim not to be disney apologists are the same one's who ALMOST ALWAYS come to disney's defense but then say they disagree with something (usually small) to say they can see both sides and are objective while other people arent as objective as they are.(and my quote is accurate and correct)
Regarding the house prices, that is what i have read in the local paper in Orlando on the internet and if i paid that much money i wouldnt want time shares in my backyard or hotels that would cause alot more traffic that woudlnt be going with a small community type neigborhood that it was proposed to be. if disney wants to change things they should offer to buy out the people who want to leave.
Who is Wayne Newton???

[Captain Crook]

Didn't he also 'invent' Fig Newton's?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[YoHo]

Has anybody taken a look at the office and buisness market outside of Celebration.

Companies have zero incentive to invest there now.

More then likely, by expanding the Tourist possibilities, Disney is giving this community a chance to prosper that it doesn't currently have. Companies are abandoning office space. they are moving to cheaper locations to reduce costs. Celebration relies on a Strong central Florida economy beyond the Tourism industry and if Orlando is anything like Portland, that just isn't there.


This sounds to me like the Residents are not fighting the right battle.

I could be wrong, but with the way things are these days....

[Bob O]

dscoop It was thrown in as a bit of levity!!! And you may or may not be right but its always good to discuss these weighty issues of the day. The article i mentioned was in the June 16 Orla. Sent. if you want to take a look, they quote several people who live there. And even though i love the hawks, i know dollar bill wirtZ wont spend the money to win so i have resigned myself to that and i have always liked the Wings and im glad they won!!! And Chelios is great, a ex Wisc. Badger!!!!
From what i have read about Celebration it was meant to be a neighborly community, close knit kind of like Ward Cleavers era, the people who bought into didnt buy into it to be in the middle of a business park with all the traffic/commotion that will result.Celebration is supposed to be a residential community and not a business area. Who here would like it if in the middle of your neighborhood some company bought up a good sized trak of it and put in timeshares/hotels etc and how that would affect your quality of life.

[HorizonsFan]

Celebration is supposed to be a residential community and not a business area.
Incorrect. Celebration is supposed to be an area where people can live AND work.
Who here would like it if in the middle of your neighborhood some company bought up a good sized trak of it and put in timeshares/hotels etc...
I wouldn't like it at all. Which is precisely why I bought a home in an area with zoning laws and deed restrictions that protect my investment.

[d-r]

Originally posted by Bob O

From what i have read about Celebration it was meant to be a neighborly community, close knit kind of like Ward Cleavers era, the people who bought into didnt buy into it to be in the middle of a business park with all the traffic/commotion that will result.Celebration is supposed to be a residential community and not a business area.

OK Bob - I'm going to sound like a disney apologist here, but remember I'm with you on the whole roller coaster thing.

I've driven through and around celebration, and there is enough room right where world drive ends, where the hotel is already, to add a 1,000 room hotel + 150 unit time share without really knowing the difference. That is a few miles drive through palmetto nowheresville before you get to the first residential areas of Celebration - I think they can build this without impacting Celebration much more than pop century would or a resort anywhere on disney property would. There is a lot of empty space between the end of world drive and the start of celebration.

Also, celebration wasn't to be just residential - there has been an industrial park all along, and office, retail, and yeah hotel space was always a part of the plan. This amounts to adding just one hotel, beyond the outskirts of the town. I honestly don't think it is going to turn the place into Kissimmee.

That said, the relations and trust with the residents should be of first priority to Disney Co. and they should take that into account and figure out a way to appease the concerns of the residents.

DR

[raidermatt]

Thoughts from a known Disney apologist who exhibits Car 3 behavior yet stubbornly refuses to vacate car 1 because of his apparently unique definition of what the cars mean:


First, I don't pretend to be a Celebration expert, because I'm not.

But it seems that Disney did/does have a reponsibility to try to make things work the way they originally planned.

However, by the same token, the residents had to know that since this was an experiment, some tweaks were inevitable.

So, before judging, my questions would be:

1- Did Disney make a strong effort to make things work as originally planned? Are they still trying?

2- Are they really trying to just tweak things to make it work, or are they just asking for as much as they think they can get away with right now?

I doubt there are any definitive answers to these questions right now, and there are those that would argue both sides.

But in relation to Baron's original question, I think Disney definitely has a responsibility to make this work, but its possible it just isn't going to happen no matter what they do.

I think if we combine Baron's and Scoop's thoughts, we get to the real problem with what Disney tried to do with Celebration, and to a lesser extent with DVC. Disney built the trust in its name through high quality products that for the most part, it had control of. Walt had great instincts for what people wanted for entertainment, and he delivered. But real estate is a completely different game. Celebration was something that just might not work, no matter who tried. If Disney truly wants to keep the trust in its name, they probably should stay out of things that have such a high potential for burning the participants, even with the best of intentions.

[Another Voice]

The joys of Celebration. There is plenty of blame to pass around on this one.

Most people bought into Celebration on the assumption that their neighborhood would be run like a Disney resort – everything perfect and everyone’s cares magically whisked away. People didn’t listen to the explanation that this was nothing but an upscale housing tract. They heard “Disney” and went off dreaming. Trusting someone for a fifty buck theme park ticket is one thing, but trusting it with a family’s future is something else entirely. People have the responsible to manage their own real lives, and far too many people were all to willing to forgo that responsibility and not look beyond The Brand.

Only Disney’s side, they have not kept up with the development of Celebration as they had promised. The population is well under where it was supposed to be at this time. Major developments such as the regional/national health center, office complexes, the schools, and other “big draw” items that were supposed to provide a stable economic base for the community are not there. The problems with downtown are not the result of people shopping elsewhere. It’s a result of too small a customer base to support those businesses and the shops that Disney wants in place. The Company wants nice picturesque resort shops, but a there are only so many art gallery and fancy dress shops a community of 15,000 people can support. The market on the corner with the deli counter looks nice, but people need a supermarket.

When things are going good it’s nice to play at “changing the world” and building schools and villages. But things are not going well at all these days. The fear is that Disney no longer sees Celebration as a real town. The place may simply be one more asset The Company can strip mine for profits.

But this time they won’t ruin brands or corporate divisions, there are going to mess with people’s lives.

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Caveat Emptor

I agree, but its sad to see those words associated with any Disney project.

[KNWVIKING]

Why should anyone expect the Celebration to be this "Ward Cleaver" type town. If that type town was so great,why doesn't it still exist. Did the local malt shoppe close because it had too much business or because somebody built a mall and the masses flocked to it. People don't really want Main Street USA where they live, but they love it in the MK. A friend & business owner in my town bought a place in Celebration.He loves to be there when he doesn't have to be in the real world. If it was intended to be a real "hometown" then why wouldn't the people in the service industry be the target buyers. How many lawyers,doctors,CEO's, etc lived in Mayberry. I don't recall Walt talking about the executive park right down the street from his home. I actually know very little about the history of Celebration but I have driven all thru it. It's beautiful and I'd like to own a house there someday, (but only if NJ Lottery helps me) but I never thought about it as being nothing more then a hybrid resort for the well-to-do who love Disney. I'm not defending what Disney is trying to do in Celebration nor condemming it, but I just find it hard to believe that rational,intellegent people thought Celebration could transport them back into some utopian era that never existed in the first place.

[Bob O]

What i read about celebration from the begining it was marketed as a throw back to a bygone era, where you would talk to your neighbors over a picket fence, it would be constructed in a way that would limit auto traffic and have a lot of open spaces/grass areas where you would know your neighbors etc and be a respite from everyday living. Yes there was to be a area downtown with some business's for the locals(not a tourist mecca) to use but wasnt supposed to be a extension of wdw. Their was no mention of time shares etc and the so-called great education plan they had was scrapped shortly after it started because it wasnt educating the kids.
People bought in because of promises made by disney and like the points Av made, they bought into the name "Disney" and trusted that they would do what they said they would do. But that was the old disney and not the current disney management in place at this time.

[KNWVIKING]

I guess one concept I have a hard time grasping up here in Jersey is making/selling/building a town. I guess it happens all the time in states with tons of open area.

While I love going & staying in WDW I'm not an old time Disney fanatic or Mousekateer,(sp). I don't believe in pixi dust or magic. I have my opinions about WDW and even ME that are all subjective and open to debate. But something as serious as spending $200K+ on a house in Celebration based on pixie dust is just unthinkable. If your lawyer reads the contract and tells you Disney has the legal right to do just about anything it wants in YOUR town and you still purchase because you just know Disney wouldn't do something like open a timeshare, then you have only yourself to blame.

I am curious about the failed education system. What happened,not enough kids to make it viable ? What is the median age,family size,etc in Celebration ?

[WDWHound]

Mr Scoop,

I still agree with you, my point is that its sad that Disney can now be used as an example for why this is necessary. I would have been happier if people had entered carefully into their contracts, only to find that not all their caution was needed. Instead it sounds like some people signed their contracts while wearing rose colered glasses regarding what the community should be like, only to find that Disney had other ideas later on.

Those who bought the houses must take responsibility for their lack of judgement, but Disney should take responsibility for promoting the community as something it is not (and possibly never could be).

In short, when a bad business deal is made, I hold both parties in low esteem, the one who was dumb enough to sign it, and the one who was unethical enough to take advantage of them. I had hoped I would never have reason to put Disney in in the latter group.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well, well, well! I threw this out for you guys because I thought it was a little interesting and I hadn’t posted anything new in a while. And I do confess that I really don’t know much about Celebration. So for me it was a kind of throw-away piece. And I posted it for one reason, and one reason only: to show the power of the “brand”, or Disney®!! AV is always on about this subject, and to a lesser extent, so am I.

So if I may, I’d like to take this back to my original point for just a moment (at the risk of killing a potential 10 pager). Which is simply that the people who bought into Celebration with “faith” and “trust” in the Disney name are absolute certifiable knuckleheads!!! And before you think I’m flaming without thought and regard to those knuckleheads, I consider myself chief amongst their ranks. Remember I bought my DVC without benefit of seeing it first and I glanced at the closing papers as I signed them. OH! I listened intently to the sales agent. And I did work the numbers. (I’m not totally stupid, just a knucklehead!) But I trusted Disney to look after my interest. I LOVED Disney. I was loyal to Disney. They were almost family. So I signed and signed and signed some more. Trusting to the “BRAND”. It really wasn’t until I started to lurk on the DVC board that I understood that some of the things the sales people said, were not what the people on the board understood things to be. And you know what? The people on the Dis were right and my sales rep was wrong!! And it wasn’t just one bad rep, the message DVC was putting out throughout the entire company was that “Vacation club member owned a piece of the magic.”

As an example of the “special” Disney sale throughout the company I cite the following. We were at the Boardwalk (I think, it may have been the Swan) and a member of our party asked if we could take the boat to EPCOT. At the time it was strictly for resort guests. The CM told us as much and my mother said that we were DVC members. OH!!! The CM said. “Well, you guys can do pretty much anything you want!” And he meant it. Try that today. We were promised pool hopping. NO, NOT IN WRITING (part of being a knucklehead). Good forever - for everything - built or unbuilt. HA!! Not true!!! Not true at all!!!! AKL opened with big, “DVC MEMBERS NOT ALLOWED” signs posted in the lobby!! (well, I guess it wasn’t posted that way, but it may as well have been. We weren’t allowed, that’s for sure!!) And now the Beach Club pool is OFF-LIMITS!!!! It’s only a matter of time before…

Anyway, you get the picture. And the people, like my friend Dave, who defend or at least explain the facts of Disney life, are exactly right.

We were the knuckleheads!!

They are the knuckleheads!!

(I am the Walrus!)

I’m very sure there were others that bought their DVC the same way (I personally know of at least five other couples just off the top of my head!). And I’m equally sure that there are some that trusted the Disney “BRAND” when they signed the papers for their “Leave it to Beaver” house in Celebration. So, I empathize with them. Not in judgment but in a “been there, done that” kind of way.

I retrospect I couldn’t have been more naive and just plain dumb. Let’s face it. I wouldn’t put that kind of “faith” and “trust” in half (oh hell, three quarters) of my family members! And most of them haven’t shown the stupidity that Disney has lately!!!

Sir Raider!! You sized it up nicely!
Disney built the trust in its name through high quality products that for the most part, it had control of. Walt had great instincts for what people wanted for entertainment, and he delivered. But real estate is a completely different game.

Imagine that power (of the brand) with something less than a real estate interest!!!

My only point!

Thanks






PS: Ok, I'm done! Go back at it!!!!! ;)

[KNWVIKING]

I purchased OKW in '98, James Thomas was my salesperson. He never promised me pool hopping for any length of time,he simply stated that it was a feature currently in effect if I choose to do it. I have know idea what other salesperson's promised but as a Service Manager in a very busy GMC dealership I've learned over & over that people have selective hearing.They only hear what they want to hear. When AKL opened I wasn't upset that pool hopping was not allowed, what bothered me was that the rational for not allowing it was to give the animals a chance to get acclimated to their new surroundings. Is the word "Idiot" tattoo'ed on my face ! Were they afraid of offending people with the simple truth that they want that pool to be used by AKL guests.

I personnally don't believe DCV has ever lied to me. I purchase OKW site-unseen as I did with VWL and BCV. I got exactly what I wanted, zero regrets.You refer back to the DVC Dis board: While I have learned a lot from that board I also get frustrated by members who think DVC and WDW owe them something. Example, early on,when OKW wasn't selling,DVD offered free park passes for x number of years as an incentive. Simple marketing ploy,got the ball rolling,no need to continue the incentive,no problem,right ?? Wrong. Even before the passes expired members who had them started *****ing that DVC has to do something for them to make up for the lose of free passes. Give me a break !

[raidermatt]

My DVC purchase was pretty much the same as Viking's, in that we weren't lied to in any way. We were told that things like pool hopping, and even the parks themselves, were not guaranteed.

However, I have seen too many people say they were told differently, including our trusted friend Mr. Baron, for me to think that our experience was shared by all.

Now, to Baron's point, I agree, that brand name is very powerful, and while we knew what we were getting into, I'd be lieing if I said the Disney name wasn't at least a nice "plus" in our decision making process.

I still think that brand carries more weight than some think it does. However, using it to sell a novel real estate plan to the people is very risky, especially if Disney isn't prepared to take its lumps (even if not required to by law) when it doesn't work out.

Sort of like the animated films. We've seen the Disney name go from being an implied guarantee of quality entertainment, to meaning virtually nothing, then, get re-built in the late 80's through mid-90's, only to slump again.

The overall Disney name never really lost its hold on the people, but things like Celebration can make that hold weaker.

Imagine that power (of the brand) with something less than a real estate interest!!!

Yes, extremely powerful, but along with that power comes the need to maintain it, which (I think) is the implied meaning of your post.

Or not.;)

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. I’m almost through with this. Just a couple more things:

To KNWVIKING:I personally don't believe DCV has ever lied to me.I don’t doubt that for a moment. But my experience was… ah… well… different! That is one of the main reasons I stay away from the DVC Board here. There are way too many discussions that degenerate into these kind of pointless arguments.

But even if they did “tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth…” I would still have the same post. Simply because the point wasn’t misrepresentation by Disney salespeople, it was to show how really strong the “brand” is in some people. Knuckleheaded people, I’ll grant you. Naive people, is a given. But “Disney” people one and all!

I purchase OKW site-unseen as I did with VWL and BCV. I got exactly what I wanted, zero regrets.So far – me too!! But there is a danger. A very big danger. And not one that points to bus service (which sucks!) or pool hopping, or free tickets for the year 2000. It has to do with quality! It has to do with nickel and dimes. Slowly, those things that were taken for granted back in 1992 have been taken away. Little things. Those stupid little, seemingly inconsequential, things that I’m always on about (Mickey head butter, anyone?). Placemats. Certain utensils. TOWELS!!! SOAP!!! And on my last trip I noticed one whole building unit in BAD need of paint!!!!! Hopefully that will not be the case when I visit next time.

But the point is, I bought, not for the tickets (which were GREAT!). And not for the towels (which were plentiful). I bought because I knew and came to love Disney QUALITY. And the tickets, placemats, coffee, pool hopping, towels, soap and new paint (among other things) are all part of that quality.

Now, please don’t get me wrong. There is no arguing that the quality is still high. But not as high as in 1992. And I fear that the slippery slop that we see in the parks will infect (like a cancer) my dearly beloved DVC. Now who do I see about that?!?!?!

I say it is my fault for trusting them. For trusting the “Brand”. A mistake I won’t make again!!!

Sir Raider!!! I must admit that when you first started posting (or at least when I became aware of you) I thought you were a natural for my car. Maybe even as alternate driver. I gotta tell you, you’re recent posts haven’t changed my mind one iota!! Just look at how you cut through the nonsense and dive right into the heart of the matter (a clear trait of a car #3 person)!! ;) Yes, extremely powerful, but along with that power comes the need to maintain it, which (I think) is the implied meaning of your post.YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!

[Bob O]

I would agree with the buyer beware before signing on the doted line. But from reading a lot of articles and parts of two books on celebration it seems alot of people did receive similiar treatment that DVC talked about ahd feel the same way he does, only the price was a lot higher and it also affected their kids education.
From my understanding in celebration they were supposed to have a new education system where mutiple classes would be put together with new learning techniques/hi tech euip and graded in a different manner that would supposedly produce a more intelligent student but it was flawed from day one and was eventually scrapped but was sold big time as a reason to be part of the community. Now from what i have read they are putting in a public school in the community which has made alot of people unhappy as the school will bus in people from the surrounding area's who wont be at the same economic status/family structure as the members of Celebration. And i wouldnt be happy if i thought my child would be in a private type school setting and then that have done away with and instead by part of a public school system with all the problems that can bring with it.

[KNWVIKING]

Mickey head butter is still served at Shutters in the DVC VB resort.

[KNWVIKING]

I would be curious to know what the Celebration contract states about the school system. Can Celebration legally scrap the private school for public one. If I had purchased at Celebration with the anticipation of sending my kids to a state-of-the-art private school,but instead got a generic public school, then "stuff" would hit the fan. I still wonder how many school aged children actually live in Celebration.

[Galahad]

We looked at Celebration a few years ago and decided it was definitely NOT for us. But, that said....I've read a couple of books about it as well....don't know if they are the same ones that Bob read.... and they were decidely hit pieces, with one written by a couple of NY Times reporters who bought a house in Celebration expressly for the purpose of doing a book. Also, we went through a couple of pitches from the Celebration folks, the first year it opened and then a couple of years later, and they never offered or promised a private school. The school was to be "state of the art", but was always suppose to be part of the Osceola county school district.

[Another Voice]

As I understand it, initially the school in Celebration was supposed to be private, but it became affiliated with Osceola as part of the overall Disney-government negotiations about the entire project. The school itself was supposed to be a model for “new education techniques” and like most social experiments went with what was trendy among a small number of the fashionably elite rather than using real educators. The schools also turned out to be very expensive experiments as well and Disney has continually reduced its support over the years.

As for the books, neither one was a “hit piece”. Especially the book written by the couple from the Times; they were very open to everyone about exactly what they were doing. In fact one of the central themes of the book is how the residents were unfairly blaming Disney for problems that weren’t their fault and how the population, not Disney, had unrealistic expectations about the entire project.

[Galahad]

I disagree, especially about the book by the NY times couple. That book wasn't so much a "Disney" hit piece as a "Celebration" hit piece....as in..."look at all of the freaks living here". I also don't agree that they were all that open about what they were doing. A lot of residents say they were blind sided by them. Reporters from the NY times, of all places, are not going to devote that much of their lives to that kind of project and not get some "meat" out of it.

[Bob O]

I read parts of both books, didnt have a chance to read them all the way thru but i thought they highlighted both the good and bad and gave their opinons of the town and the concept of it.
I just know i wouldnt want my kids from a upper scale neighborhood going to school with alot of kids from far less affluent neighborhoods. What i have read in the papers both nationally/locally is that florida's public schools arent good, if im wrong let me know but that i what i have read. The school at Celebration might not have been ment to be a private school but wasnt supposed to be heavily populated with students that are bused in.

[raidermatt]

Sir Raider!!! I must admit that when you first started posting (or at least when I became aware of you) I thought you were a natural for my car. Maybe even as alternate driver.

Sometimes, I have to break out the slide-rule and abacus to figure out which car I'm in... Magic hasn't truly faded, but at times current management does seem to be launching rockets at it...maybe I should leave the car at home and just walk!

[Galahad]

Bob,

What you've read about the FL public schools is right.

[bd-celebration]

We have heard everyone's opinions about Celebration; unfortunately none of them actually live here. Everone seems to have their own preconceived notions, thoughts and ideas of what it is like to live here. Some have "driven through", "visited the model homes" or even "read the books" and think they know what it is like to live here.

While Celebration is not the "Ward Cleaver" or "Disney" town everyone envisions it to be, I can say from our three years living here that we have no desire to live anywhere else. The people are wonderful, the town is beautiful and we are never bored.

Not everyone likes Celebration, which is just fine by us. We only want people who love the town to move and live here. No town, however planned, can be perfect. We have our fair share of problems, disputes and issues, but would never want to live in a "perfect" town. We will just settle for our piece of Celebration.

[Bob O]

BD-celebration, since you live there and know everything first hand what are your opnions on the addition of timeshares and increased hotels in your town???
dscoop- the schools may not have meant to be private but ive never read that they were supposed to have alot of low income kids bused in either which will impact education greatly.

[DVC-Landbaron]

bd-celebration, STOP!!!! PLEASE!!!

We’ve got a real live Celebrationite posting, but he doesn’t answer the question!!! Either of them!!!

So hang on second. And PLEASE post one more time. We live here and love it.I know that’s what you said but I still have to ask, what about the article? What do you think? What about your neighbors? What’s the general feeling?

And second, and most important (because it’s my point, of course ;)) did you, or did any of your neighbors buy into Celebration because it was affiliated with Disney? Perhaps not the primary reason, but maybe something that tipped the scales. Give us some insight!!!

[HorizonsFan]

I just know i wouldnt want my kids from a upper scale neighborhood going to school with alot of kids from far less affluent neighborhoods.
Most public schools, no matter the neighborhood in which they're located are attended by those of all socio-economic levels. There are always parts of a community that are less affluent and those children are entitled to an education.
The only way to keep "upper scale" kids from mingling with "less affluent" kids is to put them in private school. But is that really such a good thing?

[Bob O]

Horizons fans-It counts how the public schools are where you live. In my city where the average grade in the public school is a D and the dropout rate is about 50% it matters greatly. And that is why my kids will never step a foot into a public school. But i live in a big city and im sure its better in smaller communities.
dscoop people who live in homes as expensive as they are in celebration would more than likely be willing to pay money to have their kids in better schools and not have to deal with schools that have alot of bused in students.

[Bob O]

Well dscoop from what ive heard and read and been told the public schools in FLA are horrible and people who live in Celebration would more than likely have the ability to afford a good private/parochical education for their kids. And 6 houses in the city of celebration under 199,000, man we are dealing with hard core poverty here!!!
Families will gladly spend money to make sure their kids get a good education and are in a proper enviroment to do so and busing doesnt enhance that enviroment at all!!!

[bd-celebration]

DVC-Landbaron,

With regards to your questions, I assume you wish to know what my thoughts are on the article in the Orlando Sentinel by Mike Thomas. Honestly, I could care less what he, or Mike Pino, (another Sentinel writer) say about Celebration. Those two have written many a negative article on Celebration and are the type of people who wait for you to fall on your face, just so they can say "I told you so". People like them can continue to live in their dull, cookie-cutter subdivisions and write all they want about the town.

I do think that many of the people who originally moved here in 1996 had been given a different picture of what Celebration was to become. As the town has grown, the vision has changed and evolved. Much of the change has been business-driven by TCC (The Celebration Company - "Disney") and much of it has been resident driven, but you would have to be naive to believe that it was not going to change and evolve. I personally would prefer not to see time-shares here, but don't have an issue with a Four Seasons Resort built on the edge of town. Either way, it does not have a significant impact on us, or our lifestyle. I think anyone who moved here and put their full faith in Disney had their head in the clouds. Just ask those who work(ed) for WorldCom.

One of the best things about Celebration is our neighbors, because they are very much like we are. I have neighbors from such a variety of places like England, Jamaica and Rhode Island. Most of us moved here for similar reasons, but for us it started with the feeling we got the first time we drove into town in 1996. Within ten minutes of driving around, we both looked at each other and said "someday we will live here". It just so happened that three years later I was offered a position in Orlando, which gave the opportunity to move to Celebration. Some residents are really upset about the time shares and the hotel, but that is just a small percentage. We plan to stay.

Anyway, that is my two cents for the evening. Thanks.

[DisneyKidds]

bd - very nice to get some perspective from someone who is there and living it. Thanks.

I think the idea of people buying a timeshare based on brand recognition and faith can't be compared to people buying a home and choosing a place to live, work, and raise a family. One is a relatively small investment of money and vacation time in Disney. However, it would be foolish to think anyone, no matter how much they might love Disney, could make a momentous decision on where to live and raise a family based solely on the Disney brand. Sure, it was a Disney thing and that may have lured people into town to take a look - and perhaps spend a little more to live there. However, no one makes the decision to buy a home lightly. Even some of the 'less intelligent' people of the world are more intelligent than that. Furthermore, Celebration is probably upscale as Orlando communities go and the people are likely sophisticated enough to look at what counts in making a decision to buy and not just look at the brand.

[DVC-Landbaron]

bd-celebration,

Thank you!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:

I ditto my new friend DisneyKidds post!!

I learned something today!!! And at my age that something!!! :crazy:

[Bob O]

When you look over different boards on this site you can find alot of people who would be willing to buy a house at Celebration soley because of the disney brand IMHO.