Critical Mass

[COACHSTING]

We just got back from a four day trip and stayed at the BWV. On our first day out and about we met several people who said the parks were very crowded. One person though said it wasn't bad; that they only had to wait about an hour to get on one of the major attractions. When we got to the parks, it was extremely hot and very crowded. The waits were in the 40 to 60 minute range. Not that bad for a 60 minite wait? This was in the middle of June!

We have been DVC members since 2002 and have been coming to WDW since we were married in 1982. We just capped our points with a new purchase at BLT but are starting to wonder if the DVC members are supporting the theory that no new parks are needed.

We have been coming to the world at all times of the year and can no longer find that time when the parks aren't at or near capacity.

As long as villas, homes and treehouses keep being sold, the capacity for the parks reaches critical mass in that they are almost always full, thereby limiting the positive experience for park guests.

I think it's getting to the point where future resort development should take a back seat to seeing an additional park of some sort built.

[d-r]

It is very hot and crowded right now.

[Shelly F - Ohio]

Not too mention they just had a promotion for 40% off of a moderate room rates. Plus free dining. That all adds up to more people taking advantage of these deals and WDW being crowded.
They need to consider offering DVC owners a special deal like EMH just for DVC owners. They could still do EMH for everyone else at one park and EMH at another park just for DVC owners. After all we have invested a lot of $$$$. And if they continue to build DVC resorts at WDW and make things so crowded and the wait times unbearable why would we want to come to Disney if it is going to be a miserable vacation. They will force us to either sell our timeshare or use our points at other non-disney locations.

[Chuck S]

I just don't see a 5th major park in the works anytime soon. If every WDW DVC room was filled, it wouldn't fill one park to capacity, and remember, those buying DVC are likely former onsite cash guests...so it is possible that while DVC Membership is increasing, it is harder to fill cash rooms...thus the many special cash deals we are seeing right now.

Attraction sponsorship would also be hard to find in the current economy.

[Chuck S]

Not too mention they just had a promotion for 40% off of a moderate room rates. Plus free dining. That all adds up to more people taking advantage of these deals and WDW being crowded.
They need to consider offering DVC owners a special deal like EMH just for DVC owners. They could still do EMH for everyone else at one park and EMH at another park just for DVC owners. After all we have invested a lot of $$$$. And if they continue to build DVC resorts at WDW and make things so crowded and the wait times unbearable why would we want to come to Disney if it is going to be a miserable vacation. They will force us to either sell our timeshare or use our points at other non-disney locations.

Truthfully, why would Disney really care if you sell your timeshare? Who ever buys it will pay the fees and fill the DVC rooms. If too many members trade outside the DVC system to the Disney collection or Concierge Collection, the ability to trade will simply be suspended, since DVC rooms have to be rented for cash to pay for the trade. If it is an RCI trade, an RCI family will simply fill the room instead of you.

[DebbieB]

I just got back and we were able to deal with the crowds. We got there for early entry or for roap drop. Hit the most popular attractions first with little wait and also got fastpasses. Went back to the resort around 1:00, went back out around 5:00-6:00. Lines were shorter in the evening. The longest line we actually stood in was about 30 min. I can't imagine getting into a 60 minute or longer standby line, use fastpass.

[Muushka]

Our last visit was the first week of Jan and it was very crowded. Usually by now we are chomping at the bit to get back, but after the last trip, we are in no hurry. In fact, we were in FL in April and did not even go to WDW. That is a first for us.

Crowded parks and long lines are not our idea of a good time.

[ILoveMyDVC]

Crowds were brutal today in MK and last night the line for checking into Cape May Cafe stretched past the front door of the resort.

Judging by the cars in the parking lot, I'd say the economy was absolutely booming - never saw saw many Denalis, Escalades and Suburbans in one place.

[Lenc324]

This isn't at all good news to hear. :mad:

[wdrl]

We visited WDW from June 7-15 and found it was very hot. The parks and downtown Disney were crowded at times, but we have seen worse crowds in previous visits. We were at Hollywood Studios on Sunday, 6/14, for the last day of the Star Wars Weekends. Except for Toy Story Mania, the standby times and FastPass times for the attractions were not really out of the ordinary.

We went back to the Studios on Monday, 6/15, with the assumption that the crowds would be smaller because the Star Wars Weekend festivities would be over. The crowd on Monday might have been smaller than Sunday's crowd, but the attractions seemed to be busier. It might have been because people were riding the attractions rather than being diverted by the Star Wars activities. By 10:00 AM, Toy Story Mania had a 70 minute standby wait, and the FastPass return time was 5:00-6:00 PM.

So, yes, the parks are crowded. But, whenever I talked to cast members at the parks, resorts, or restaurants, they all say that the crowds are down but are slowly getting back to normal.

[tjkraz]

DVC growth is a drop in the bucket compared to the total attendance at Disney's parks.

The Contemporary's North Garden Wing was demolished to make way for the Bay Lake Tower. So the growth in resort capacity there is minimal. There were over 200 rooms in the Garden Wing vs 280-some at BLT.

At the Animal Kingdom Villas about 1/3 of the villas were created by refurbishing existing rooms.

A big chunk of Saratoga Springs--including the Treehouse Villas--was formerly known as the Disney Institute.

Over the last decade the total expansion totals less than 1000 rooms. With a capacity of 4-9 guests per villa you've got maybe 7000-8000 additional guests (tops!) spread over four theme parks, water parks, Dowtown Disney, etc. Many of those guests won't even enter the parks on any given day.

And we're talking about theme parks designed to accommodate well over 50,000 guests on any given day.

We were at WDW two weeks ago and frankly I was surprised that the crowds weren't larger. Aside from the heat it didn't feel much different than our other recent off-season trips. Our FastPasses always had return windows that were about 1.5 - 2 hours from the time we picked them up. Sure some of the headline attractions had wait times of 60+, but I've never waited that long for an attraction and may never do so...at least not as long as FastPass is an option.

My own personal theory is that a lot of folks who frequent the parks now first discovered WDW around 2001-2004 when Disney was still hurting from 9/11. Sure attendance is much higher now than it was then. But I doubt it's anywhere close to maxing-out park capacity on a consistent basis.

[disneynutz]

Disney does an excellent job of marketing and promotion to keep the parks and resorts full.

As long as Guests keep attending, even during the hottest and worst weather times of the year, Disney will keep packing them in. For every family who decides not to put up with it anymore, it seems like 3 take their place.

[Redbudlover]

I think the crowd mania is a problem in perspective. It is hot every summer in FL. It is crowded every summer at the parks. If you think Disney is offering free dining and special room discounts and special package discounts without needing to fill empty rooms you are not thinking like a business. We are seeing more discounts this summer than I can remember in the last ten years. I was shocked yesterday when I went online to compare costs of staying in the CR MK view with buying points and found I could stay in the new BLT studio MK view just about any time I was willing to shell out $400 a night. I was at OKW in May and found the parks relatively uncrowded - during Star Tours weekend! I think people like to stir up anxiety, but this one is just not going to fly with me...

[bigsmooth]

The guys who write the unofficial guides to WDW have had some interesting thoughts on why the crowds are so high during a down economy. First off, they have claimed that all WDW properties are 80% plus booked at all times of the year, so the wide attendence swings are not necessarily because of all the hotels Disney is building, but all the other hotels and condos everyone else is busy.

But the point on how crowded the parks fee even during slow times that they also have mentioned (and I do believe this) that Disney is trying to push as much efficiency into their park operations by messing with staffings and park hours. You can have a lower number of guests staying in Orlando, but by knocking time off operating hours for the parks or changing staffing levels on attractions that limit throughput, you can make a park seem just as crowded with lower crowds in a slow period as you would during a busier period. I think we have all seen that, where there are periods where you know they are not staffing Pirates, or Haunted Mansion or Big Thunder to full capacity, which would make a line longer than it could be if they were operating at full capacity. I bet that is even worse now as with all of the discounts being pushed, the margin per guest is probably lower than they like- and one way to compensate this is by tweaking the operations side of things.

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Didn't Yogi Barra say "Nobody goes to that restaurant anymore, its too crowded."

[bobbiwoz]

We were there last week and saw the stand by line for Soarin extended to about 30 ft. from the stand by entrance, and we had never seen it that long before. It took about 30 minutes total with the fast pass. However, Norway's ride had only a 20 minute stand by line, and at other times, we've seen that one over an hour.

DH and I didn't try to do as much as we sometimes do but we did what we planned. FOTLK played to a not quite full audience, but I got shut out of the Nemo show that I hoped for, my mistake, I got into the line very late in the game. FTBBQ had no line and it was about 1 PM when I was getting my ribs. That was totally a shock, and it wasn't hard to find a seat.

I saw mixed messages about the crowds last week. I only went to Illuminations, not the other night shows. At that, I got a pretty good view of them from the lower area at Great Britain, and I left the BCV around 8:30 and I'm a very slow walker, so I don't think Epcot was very crowded that night. OK, we were there on NYE, and that was crowded!

Bobbi:goodvibes

[Disney_Villain]

We have been coming to the world at all times of the year and can no longer find that time when the parks aren't at or near capacity.

Um, I disagree. We are members and we go in many different seasons to WDW and DL. We've found quiet moments in early mornings, late evenings and EMH evenings. (We do, however, avoid spring breaks and summers.)

I see previous postings here of "crowds are brutal" and "it is hot and crowded." This is late June. Kids are out of school. Are the parks supposed to be cool and quiet during this time? :rolleyes:

[FindTheMickeys]

I agree. I have been to the World in August and the heat was brutal and the lines were long (90 minutes to get onto Space Mountain :scared1:). I went in October and the heat wasn't as bad and the lines were short (almost NO waits):cool1:. I've been in November and the lines were a little longer, but not miserably so and the lack of heat made the lines easier to stand in:rolleyes1. This year, I'm going to try the parks over Labor Day. I'm hoping that, even thought the heat will still be up there, the kids are all back in school so I might be able to do alot of walk on rides :rolleyes:. That said, since my kids are now grown and out of school and I tend to travel with friends, I plan most of my trips to the World in October or November. One day, I'd even like to go the first week of December and maybe even late January/early February. I'll leave May, June, July and August for those who have no choice but to travel during those months...

[AnimalPrincess]

The slowest time that I have found at the parks is from like Jan 5th to right before Presidents week, totally empty, but it can be cold, and the parks have really shortened days. As others have said, November is less crowded as well. When I lived down there I avoided the parks from may to sept. like the plague. I hope that I never have to go there at that time of year. Sorry for all that do.

[SunnieRN]

Not too mention they just had a promotion for 40% off of a moderate room rates. Plus free dining. That all adds up to more people taking advantage of these deals and WDW being crowded.
They need to consider offering DVC owners a special deal like EMH just for DVC owners. They could still do EMH for everyone else at one park and EMH at another park just for DVC owners. After all we have invested a lot of $$$$. And if they continue to build DVC resorts at WDW and make things so crowded and the wait times unbearable why would we want to come to Disney if it is going to be a miserable vacation. They will force us to either sell our timeshare or use our points at other non-disney locations.

I don't think dvc emh would be financially viable, but it would be fun to have walk on rides all night...:cool1::banana: Problem is, to pay for it would be way too expensive!
Crowded, we were there over easter and the 14 days following and it was CROWDED! We went at rope drop, if we went to emh we changed parks when it got crowded and we depended heavily on fastpass. It was doable, but we had no choice in when to go. I hope I never go over easter/spring break again, but any day at wdw, even with crowds, is better than a night at work!!;)

[Muushka]

The slowest time that I have found at the parks is from like Jan 5th to right before Presidents week, totally empty, but it can be cold, and the parks have really shortened days. As others have said, November is less crowded as well. When I lived down there I avoided the parks from may to sept. like the plague. I hope that I never have to go there at that time of year. Sorry for all that do.

By any chance were you there for this past Jan? CROWDED.:sad2:

[photobob]

I just got back and we were able to deal with the crowds. We got there for early entry or for roap drop. Hit the most popular attractions first with little wait and also got fastpasses. Went back to the resort around 1:00, went back out around 5:00-6:00. Lines were shorter in the evening. The longest line we actually stood in was about 30 min. I can't imagine getting into a 60 minute or longer standby line, use fastpass.

That is us precisely. We usually do this everyday of our trip and regardless of crowd levels it works. So few people get up and out early that you can do the all the major attractions by use of FP and short standby times before crowds and temperatures rise. We spend the heat of the day in the pool or in comforts of our villa.

[Disneyhappy]

Didn't Yogi Barra say "Nobody goes to that restaurant anymore, its too crowded."

This holds true for us. We love coming to WDW but we spend very little time in the parks anymore. Maybe it is our age but trying to tour the 4 parks in one week is just too exhausting for us anymore, especially in the heat and the crowds that we can't seem to get away from no matter what time of year we plan. The major heat wave of August 2007 really did us in, even with getting to the parks at rope drop and heading back to our villa at lunch time. I agree to minimize wait time, it is best to get to the park for rope drop. That worked with young children. Teenagers do not want to wake up that early while on vacation. We proably go to a park one day out of every five days we stay onsite. We enjoy the other things WDW has to offer. Then we go stay onsite at Universal and enjoy front of the line access which has really spoiled us! We are heading down in 2 days for our third WDW and US visit this year. We didn't choose the date, the date choose us for my niece's wedding in Tampa. Heat and July 4th crowds- Yippee!

[islandtimect]

I've said it before and will say it again - we don't need more DVC resorts at WDW! You can't keep increasing hotel capacity without increasing park capacity. Add more DVCs in other locations like the Bahamas.

[Lenc324]

Bahama's or the Virgin Islands sounds good to me. :banana:

[BEASLYBOO]

We were there this Jun 7- 14th, and compared to the same week last year the crowds were down. POTC walk on, HM 10 minutes, BUZZ, walk on 3 times on and on, in the mornign the parks were deserted. Only on Friday was it utltra busy and only at DHS because of Star War's Week-End. Even the restaurants were taking in walk in business, the four of us walked into Le Cellier for lunch w/out res. Even DTD wasn't really busy, walked in to Wolfgang Puck's no wait. With EMH it was a cake walk to manage both crowds and heat, actually one of the most relaxing weeks we've had at Disney.

We always go this particular week (last 4 years running) because northern schools haven't let out yet and the crowds and temperatures are still tolerable but this June it was really much less crowded, great for us, maybe not the economy.

We go again in August (3 days) just before school starts and the heat and crowds are always bad, we just do the water parks, no theme parks, and we eat off site. I anticipate that it will be just as crowded as last year. I guess we'll see.

I did Spring Break once, never again! but other than March/April the parks IMO are still manageable, with EMH/FastPass Etc.

[islandtimect]

We go again in August (3 days) just before school starts and the heat and crowds are always bad, we just do the water parks, no theme parks, and we eat off site. I anticipate that it will be just as crowded as last year. I guess we'll see..

We're going the wk of Aug 24 - how crowded will the parks and waterparks be? Never went in the summer. Will do 1 day MK, 1 day Epcot, plus water parks and VWL's pool.

[ssawka]

This is why I refuse to go down in the summer, it just dosen't make any sense. In the summer you get:

Large crowds
Exhausting heat
Inflated hotel prices (whether it be in points or $)


Also, for everyone complaining about Disney offering hotel discounts, you got to remember that crowded parks does not necessarily mean crowded resorts. Disney makes the majority of their revenue on hotels and restaurants. In this down economy, it is possible that more visitors are eating and dining off-site. This means less people staying in Disney owned hotels, meaning less revenue for Disney. Disney would not be offering discounts if they did not have to.

Also, another large revenue center for Disney is merchandise. I think what is most likely happening is that people are still visiting the parks but cutting back on souvenirs.

Lastly, you need to account for the locals. I doubt too many Florida residents actually vacation in Florida, however with the economy the way it is, I'm sure many of them are choosing to take "staycations".

[BEASLYBOO]

Lastly, you need to account for the locals. I doubt too many Florida residents actually vacation in Florida, however with the economy the way it is, I'm sure many of them are choosing to take "staycations".

Yes, we locals do vacation in Florida as well as other places but I personally go to Disney a week in Jun and 3 days in Aug every year, which is why we bought into DVC. The locals can typically be recognized at the water parks because they bring in coolers and are really really tanned, other wise we blend in! :lmao:

We're going the wk of Aug 24 - how crowded will the parks and waterparks be? Never went in the summer. Will do 1 day MK, 1 day Epcot, plus water parks and VWL's pool.Lucky for you, most Florida schools will be back in session, we go back Aug 18th, some the week before and some the week after. Last year it was very crowded, utilize the EMH for both am/pm and work the Fastpass and you will be fine, hot but fine. Like I said June was completely different from last year, maybe Aug will be the too. I'm going Aug 15-17 I guess we'll see.

[lugnut33]

I don't understand the thinking of some people about deserted parks and complaining when it's busy. You are thinking completely opposite what Disney wants to happen and what they try to avoid all year long (down times). Disney's main goal, besides the magic stuff, is to make money and they do that by filling the parks. That's their job, make the parks and hotels busy. When you walk into a crowded park you see a ton of people and long waits, when a Disney exec walks into a crowded park he sees dollar signs.... chaching!

[ssawka]

I don't understand the thinking of some people about deserted parks and complaining when it's busy. You are thinking completely opposite what Disney wants to happen and what they try to avoid all year long (down times). Disney's main goal, besides the magic stuff, is to make money and they do that by filling the parks. That's their job, make the parks and hotels busy. When you walk into a crowded park you see a ton of people and long waits, when a Disney exec walks into a crowded park he sees dollar signs.... chaching!

Yes, but it is a balancing act. If parks get so crowded that you can not have an enjoyable visit, then in the long run it will hurt Disney.

[ead79]

We just got back from a four day trip and stayed at the BWV. On our first day out and about we met several people who said the parks were very crowded. One person though said it wasn't bad; that they only had to wait about an hour to get on one of the major attractions. When we got to the parks, it was extremely hot and very crowded. The waits were in the 40 to 60 minute range. Not that bad for a 60 minite wait? This was in the middle of June!

We have been coming to the world at all times of the year and can no longer find that time when the parks aren't at or near capacity.

I understand your frustration, but I respectfully disagree with some of your statements. First of all, June is always a hot month in Orlando. It's summer, and Orlando temps are brutal then. In some other parts of the country, summer isn't really in "full swing" by June, but in FL it certainly is.

Secondly, a 40-60 minute wait for a major attraction during the peak summer season isn't bad considering the timing of the trip. In June most kids are out of school, so it's prime family vacation time. There are weeks during the year (like spring break and the week between Christmas and New Years) that you routinely see 90-120 minute waits rather than 40-60 minute waits. Also, using Fastpass to its highest potential is important during the busy summer months.

Lastly, the Disney parks very rarely reach capacity. Typically that only happens on a handful of days throughout the year (Christmas, Easter, etc.). The parks certainly can feel very crowded and yet not be at or near capacity. Those parks hold a lot of people!

[tjkraz]

Yes, but it is a balancing act. If parks get so crowded that you can not have an enjoyable visit, then in the long run it will hurt Disney.

Maybe, maybe not. I tend to think it would be more cyclical rather than having a long-term negative impact. Disney may lose some business if guests determine that the parks are too busy. But over time the parks will become less busy and then business will perk up again courtesy of those seeking the more mellow experience.

Would the long-term impact be negative? I tend to doubt it. At least not over something like park over-crowding since it's a self-regulating issue.

Interestingly the easiest way for Disney to address park crowds is to charge more for admission. Higher prices should lead to lower guest levels. So pick your poison. ;)

[SoCalKDG]

I'll take crowding over heat any day of the week. I was at Epcot Jun 20th and the heat was a killer. Thankfully Epcot has a number of inside attractions.

It was decently crowded Saturday, but I didn't wait in any line longer than 15 minutes. Got there at 11 and FP Test Track. Went on Nemo, Living with the Land, Spaceship Earth, and Figment, all with less than 10 minutes. Picked up Soaring FP. Waited for Mission Space 15 minutes, then used Test Track FP. Went back to the hotel, napped. Went back in the evening on Soaring, saw American Adventure, ate dinner, watched Illuminations at 9. Total time in the park was 7 hours and did most everything we wanted.

Did I mention it was hot? We were there after a 7 day cruise for one day and I've learned that I don't want to vacation June - Sept due to the heat. Yuck.

[4evryoung]

My family have travelled in May, June, October, December, February, March and April. Over the last 18 months, in seperate trips, we have been convinced that lines are being made longer than they need to be by closing off capacity on big rides -- ie. only running one track rather than two on some e-rides like Thunder Mountain, Splash etc.

Part of this may be balance sheet stuff -- fewer staff needed to process same number of guests -- but we suspect some of it is also an attempt to make a visit to a park last a whole day when in reality there are only enough good attractions to keep people occupied for half a day. AK and Studios fall into this latter group because in reality if you are a repeat visitor youy really don't want to sit through the car stunt show, the birds of prey, Indiana Jones etc again.

The sad thing, and the thing that is not recognised early in balance sheet calculations, is that this inevitably leads to massive wait times in those attractions that really do have resonance for repeat visitors --- e.g. Soarin', Rockn'roller coaster, the pixar ride etc. We still love these rides, but repeat vistors will not accept waits of 90 -- 120 minutes in supposedly "off-peak" times to enjoy the experience. Nor will we accept a situation where, if you are lucky enough to get a fast pass, it is for 6 hours later in a part that only has 3 hours of other worthwhile rides.

My last comment, in a long post, is to reflect on the massive crowds being drawn to DTD -- most of whom arrive without a dinner reservation and are then either distraught because they cannot get into eat anywhere, or who are trying to sit toddlers down to dinner later at night after waiting hours for a walk up table. I don't know what "pitch" is being sold to them in order to bring them down to DTD, but most cannot find it a happy experience and on our last two visits, there were loads of people but no tell-tale shopping bags.

Marketing only adds business value if there is a clear strategy behind it that delivers additional value to the customer. This then builds a customer experience that establishes a lasting and mutually beneficial relationship. What is happening at the moment ignores this. DVC'ers have commited to a lasting and mutuallly beneficial relationship and Disney would do well to listen to the customer insight that is offered on these Boards.

[HayGan]

Um, I disagree. We are members and we go in many different seasons to WDW and DL. We've found quiet moments in early mornings, late evenings and EMH evenings. (We do, however, avoid spring breaks and summers.)

I see previous postings here of "crowds are brutal" and "it is hot and crowded." This is late June. Kids are out of school. Are the parks supposed to be cool and quiet during this time? :rolleyes:

I completely agree! We were there June 1 - 11 and found the crowds to be very manageable the first week. The second week we did notice an increase in the crowds but wee able to tour the parks very successfully using fastpasses and some common sense.

There are still times when the crowds ar much more manageable than others. I'll never understand why people go to the nation's top vacation spot in the summer and complain that it is crowded (and hot.)