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View Full Version : OT: WWYD? alcohol


windycitymom
06-07-2009, 05:32 PM
a

MapleGirl
06-07-2009, 05:41 PM
I don't see a problem. Proper education and erasing the taboo is the key to preventing binge drinking.

Tink-aholic
06-07-2009, 05:42 PM
I agree that it is none of your business. Maybe the parents are trying their own form of aversion therapy (whiskey is an "acquired" taste, after all).

I understand your concern, but I would butt out.

Good luck.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 05:44 PM
I would leave it alone. My granfather use to give me sips here and there and I see no problem with it. Im portugues and its common for young people to have wine. I say its not your child so leave it alone

MAH4546
06-07-2009, 05:44 PM
Nothing wrong with it, its just like in Europe. I was raised the same way, my parents were always offering me sips of wine as young as 8 or 9. It's perfectly normal, and maybe if the United States was more like that, underage drinking and binge drinking wouldn't be a big deal in the U.S., as it isn't in most of Europe.

In Wisconsin, children are allowed to drink beer and wine if accompanied with their parents.

I firmly believe America has the underage/binge drinking problems it does because of how Americans take such a taboo attitude towards it. Such an attitude is unnecessary and unfortunate. Hopefully one day the U.S. will adapt a drinking age of 14 for beer/wine and 16 for hard liquor that is so common elsewhere.

In Europe, the only major countries with drinking ages are France (16), Germany (16) and the United Kingdom (5). No other major countries have drinking ages, although some have limitations on at what age one can go to a pub/bar or purchase hard liquor.

hockeyprincess
06-07-2009, 05:49 PM
Being from Europe ancestors I do agree, over there it's no big deal. However they don't have the crime, the alcoholism, the DUI's, etc that we have here. You can drink at any age in Germany, where we are from. I was 16 when I visited last and had quite a few beers. (Their beer tastes WAY different than anything here) But like I said, they don't have the problems we do here.... if you're around it and it's no big deal, why would you become an alcoholic? If you're taught to be responsible.... Now I'm not saying break the law over here, I'm just saying if I were in Germany. What's the saying? When in Rome? BTW in Germany if you're caught driving while intoxicated you lose your license for LIFE, first time, no questions asked. I agree with that and would support implementing that in the states! Also there you can walk anywhere you want to go in your own town...it's way different than here. You can drive across the entire country in oh, a little more than 8 hrs. OT! Sorry

Not to start a huge debate, but how come I can send my 18 year old to war but he can't drink a beer legally until he's 21? I mean, this is how it's been for quite awhile but I think that's where the binge drinking in college comes from. "Oh I'm not 'allowed' until I'm 21, so I'll drink all I can until I am legal".

Also, my dad gave me alcohol when I was young, let me pour my own drink and all! Boy did I feel like BIG STUFF. It was the worst tasting thing I ever had and to this day I don't drink often. Never beer, it's disgusting. But I think it was because he let me try it, thinking I was being adult about it. I didn't know that then but I realize that now.

And I let my children drink virgin dacquri's if they want, it's not hurting a thing and they love the glass and the pink frozen slush.

ksumn1
06-07-2009, 05:56 PM
I really think that it wasn't a huge deal. My DD (6) wanted a sip of wine one night as I was pouring it. I gave her less than a drop on her tounge. She thought it was horrible, as I knew she would. I think in the US, there is a huge taboo about alcohol until you're 21 that's not present in Europe. There seems to be a much more realistic approach to alcohol education in Europe than in the US. I think there's nothing wrong with having one glass of wine or beverage with a meal. It's the no holds barred, drink until you're drunk or pass out mindset that is the issue. It's such a forbidden, illicit act to drink (at all) underage that it makes it almsost irresistable. When there's a looser, it's OK to have a drink (one) with a meal if you're responsible approach I think the actual act of drinking loses it's appeal. I mean, if you can have a glass of wine with Mom and Dad at dinner, is it as cool as "sneaking" it later with friends?


And I totally don't agree that an 18 year old can enlist, serve our country, and give the ultimate sacrifice but can't walk into a restautant, bar, wherever and buy a beer :confused3

But if it bothers you that bad, bring it up later in a non confrontational way. Especially if you don't want your kids offered a non alcoholic beverage in an adult glass. But keep in mind, if you single your kids out thy may get upset and not understand why they can't have a drink like cousin Jimmy and Jane.

Kay1
06-07-2009, 05:58 PM
WWYD? I was at a family birthday party and I see one of the dad's offer his 13 year old daughter a sip of his alcohol (he had a shot glass of whiskey). She turns him down, and he says "go ahead and smell it". She smells it. He then says "go ahead and take a sip". She takes a sip even though she clearly doesn't want to. Both the mom and dad are very open with alcohol and even have no problem letting their toddlers take a sip of a beer. The mom loves to serve the other kids at the party non-alcoholic dacquari drinks in real martini glasses.:eek: They come from a european culture where drinking is no big deal.

I find it very disturbing, but it's really none of my business. These people are extended family members so I can't avoid them. Yet, watching stuff like this makes me so mad!:mad: What would you do?

Well, I would do what you did and would have minded my own business.

hrddrv
06-07-2009, 05:59 PM
I say you might want to mention to them that it is against the law to contribute to minors and for them to be careful about who is around when they do that.

With that being said I was raised in the South and am a little country if ya know what I mean. I was offered drinks all the time growing up. I also joined the military and drank on base before I was 21. But am not an alcoholic and have maybe a margarita or 2 a month if that. I do not have kids yet but hopefully real soon and will be very careful of what I do with them. I believe it is how you are raised and what was shown to you as a child that affects your adult life.

GOOFY4DONALD
06-07-2009, 06:07 PM
Hey OP please don't feel bad. I, too, think it was uncalled for. This was not a sip of wine at Thanksgiving this was a dad trying to get hid DD to enjoy a drink. He offered..she did not ask...she declined...he pushed until she drank it. My inlaws thought is was so cute to gives their kids beer to try and sips of hard alcohol. They made virgin versions of the exact same drink the adults were drinking (OJ was called a virgin screwdriver). Eventually this led to all of the boys allowed to drink at age 15ish. (They are going to do it anyway so better they do it in my home). All the kids have drinking problems. My DH doesn't drink at all now because he knows he can't.

dawnbu40
06-07-2009, 06:24 PM
I think all these posters saying its no big deal are wrong! A parent encouraging a child is morally wrong and illegal. Is there anything you can do? Probably not but I would avoid them and I sure wouldn't let my kids around them!

MapleGirl
06-07-2009, 06:27 PM
I think all these posters saying its no big deal are wrong! A parent encouraging a child is morally wrong and illegal. Is there anything you can do? Probably not but I would avoid them and I sure wouldn't let my kids around them!

"Morally wrong" How so?

clh2
06-07-2009, 06:30 PM
In Wisconsin, children are allowed to drink beer and wine if accompanied with their parents.




Please do not tell my 15 YO DD this!:lmao: We live in WI.

Actually, most establishments (if not all) in WI will not put their liquor licenses at risk by allowing a parent to let a minor have alcohol.

This really applies to "at home" situations.

HelenePA
06-07-2009, 06:31 PM
eh I see no big deal with it either.. growing up me and my brother were always allowed a lil bit of wine on my birthday (dec 31) and we never really drank it.. just walked around with this tiny cup of wine all night for the most part pretending to be grown up. To this day I hate wine.. We dont hide our drinks from our kids.. none have asked to taste it, mostly beer. They do ask to smell it..

semo233
06-07-2009, 06:36 PM
If you were hosting the party or if the party is on your property, then you have every right to speak up. If not, then I would keep my mouth shut.
I agree that giving her whiskey, when she clearly did not want it, was wrong and sent her the wrong message. What will happen when a peer offers it to her....she probably will think she can't say no, especially if she can't say no to her father.

GOOFY4DONALD
06-07-2009, 06:41 PM
"Morally wrong" How so?
As you see we all have our own opinion on whether this could harm a child now or in the future. At the very least the moral issue could be that it is illegal but you are showing them it is ok to break the law. It does not matter if someone doesn't think that it should be a law or if it is only an American law the fact is that it is against the law.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 06:41 PM
"Morally wrong" How so?

I was going to ask the same thing.

MAH4546
06-07-2009, 06:44 PM
As you see we all have our own opinion on whether this could harm a child now or in the future. At the very least the moral issue could be that it is illegal but you are showing them it is ok to break the law. It does not matter if someone doesn't think that it should be a law or if it is only an American law the fact is that it is against the law.

Only 14 states and the District of Colombia have outright bans on underage alchhol consumption. In 17 states, there are no minor consumption laws in private homes. In 19 states, there are specific situations in which minor consumption is allowed, usually limited to when the alcohol is served by the child's legal guardian.

Regardless, America's idiotic alcohol rules are why underage drinking is a problem.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 06:46 PM
Only 14 states and the District of Colombia have outright bans on underage alchhol consumption. In 17 states, there are no minor consumption laws in private homes. In 19 states, there are specific situations in which minor consumption is allowed, usually limited to when the alcohol is served by the child's legal guardian.

Regardless, America's idiotic alcohol rules are why underage drinking is a problem.

I completly agree about the laws. In Portugal you don't see the drinking and driving, the binge drinking and the violence you see here because of drinking.

casndan
06-07-2009, 06:48 PM
Regardless, America's idiotic alcohol rules are why underage drinking is a problem.

I have to agree with this.

maddiesmom0116
06-07-2009, 06:54 PM
WWYD? I was at a family birthday party and I see one of the dad's offer his 13 year old daughter a sip of his alcohol (he had a shot glass of whiskey). She turns him down, and he says "go ahead and smell it". She smells it. He then says "go ahead and take a sip". She takes a sip even though she clearly doesn't want to. Both the mom and dad are very open with alcohol and even have no problem letting their toddlers take a sip of a beer. The mom loves to serve the other kids at the party non-alcoholic dacquari drinks in real martini glasses.:eek: They come from a european culture where drinking is no big deal.

I find it very disturbing, but it's really none of my business. These people are extended family members so I can't avoid them. Yet, watching stuff like this makes me so mad!:mad: What would you do?

My dad let me try beer when I was fairly young and it was so gross I still won't drink it. He should have done the same with Vodka, Rum, Tequila, etc... They may have been doing a similar thing with their child. as long as they don't do this with your kids then i would let it go until you see it progress to endangerment level.

GOOFY4DONALD
06-07-2009, 06:56 PM
My dad let me try beer when I was fairly young and it was so gross I still won't drink it. He should have done the same with Vodka, Rum, Tequila, etc... They may have been doing a similar thing with their child. as long as they don't do this with your kids then i would let it go until you see it progress to endangerment level.You asked and your dad let you try. In the OP's story the girl did not ask and was coerced into it. That was more disturbing than the fact that she tried a sip.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 06:59 PM
Well she knows she doesn't like it and maybe it will deter her from it when she is older.

CouponCon
06-07-2009, 07:09 PM
Personally I would mind my own business.....to each his own.....although the OP also said the toddlers sip beer????? I forgot while I was teaching my kids to walk and talk I also should be teaching them to drink responsibly....

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 07:12 PM
Personally I would mind my own business.....to each his own.....although the OP also said the toddlers sip beer????? I forgot while I was teaching my kids to walk and talk I also should be teaching them to drink responsibly....

It sure would make them go to sleep easier now wouldn't it :rotfl2:

princessmom29
06-07-2009, 07:33 PM
I am going to have to agree with pp's here who say that they do not see anything wrong. I think that parents who are open about alcohol raise childern who see no mystery in the "forbidden fruit" and do not end up binge drinking ect in their teen years. If they see a parent with a healthy relationship to alcohol, who knows when they have had enough and drinks responsibly they are much more likely to model that behavior and less likely to "go wild." Teen binge drinking and alcoholism is much,much less common in Europe than the US b/c children are taught from an early age that alcohol is nothing special or mystical, and are how to handle alcohol responsibly. I think that is a major failing in alcohol education in the US. Telling a child that alcohol is bad and never to drick ect, is clearly not an effective education program, especialy when they know that a parent drinks.

delmar411
06-07-2009, 07:48 PM
the only thing that disturbed me from the scene OP described is the pushing of the taste on the girl. No means no, whatever the situation and the father is crossing the line even if he meant no harm. Unintended consequences and all.

PrincessTiffany
06-07-2009, 07:49 PM
"Morally wrong" How so?
I view encouraging your children to break the law as immoral. If he was encouraging her to smoke marijuana would that be okay too? I mean lots of people also think that smoking marijana should be legal.

To the OP, I think he's a terrible parent and I wouldn't go back around them.

cheriemek
06-07-2009, 07:55 PM
When I was a kid, my dad always had a beer with dinner. If I was thirsty, I would ask to have a sip of my dad's beer. I never had more than a few sips, and when I was a teen, I didn't want to pay someone to buy beer for me because beer was no big deal. I'm Catholic, and kids have a tiny bit of wine at Mass.

It's a tough call. Times are different now. We want kids to understand that alcohol can be a dangerous thing, as well as a part of everyday society.

dawnbu40
06-07-2009, 08:02 PM
"Morally wrong" How so?
So its ok for parents to encourage drinking? Wow! What other illegal behaviors should they encourage?

mom2prettyprincess
06-07-2009, 08:07 PM
Please do not tell my 15 YO DD this!:lmao: We live in WI.

Actually, most establishments (if not all) in WI will not put their liquor licenses at risk by allowing a parent to let a minor have alcohol.

This really applies to "at home" situations.

Actually, I have been to many establishments in Wisconsin that will and do sell beer or wine to parents that are allowing their children to drink, even the chain restuarants. It is allowed by law. My bff and her husband own a couple of establishments in Wisconsin and many times that I have been up to help them on open of deer season there are lots of dads or even moms for that matter buying alcohol for their children. So it really isn't a matter of putting their liquor license at risk, because it is allowed by law. If the parent wasn't there then yes of course that would be putting it at risk by serving to a minor. But not all that often do you see the parent bring in a 12 year old and get them a beer. It is usually the high school aged or even the in between the 18-21 age.

ilandrazdsw
06-07-2009, 08:12 PM
How is this on the budget board???

My parents were totally open about drinking with me (as we are with our children) and it helped me to learn moderation...and now I so rarely have an alcoholic beverage I consider myself as a non-drinker. We don't offer the kids (3 &5) drinks, but if they ask we let them have a taste...as long as it isn't something fruity they show no interest. OK, unless you count using orange flavored vodka on a rag for DS' teething when he was an infant.

OP, why is it so wrong to serve non-alcoholic drinks in speciality glasses??? this could be a good thing and teach that you can still have fun without the alcohol.

Bill and Jen
06-07-2009, 08:16 PM
I think all these posters saying its no big deal are wrong! A parent encouraging a child is morally wrong and illegal. Is there anything you can do? Probably not but I would avoid them and I sure wouldn't let my kids around them!

Abiding the law in no way equals morally right. On the same note breaking the law does not automatically equals morally wrong.

I am sure everyone is aware that segragation was a law, so I assume that at that time it was morally right, and of course now it against the law, so it is now morally wrong ONLY becuase it is against the law?

Look up Lawrence Kohlberg's Six stages of moral development. I bet you might learn a thing or 2.

Tink_fanatic
06-07-2009, 08:50 PM
Not to start a huge debate, but how come I can send my 18 year old to war but he can't drink a beer legally until he's 21? I mean, this is how it's been for quite awhile but I think that's where the binge drinking in college comes from. "Oh I'm not 'allowed' until I'm 21, so I'll drink all I can until I am legal".


That was a big thing my high school class was fighting for...you could send us across seas to die but we can't handle alcohol? We can put ourselves in debt but we can't handle alcohol? What sense does that make?:confused3

Only 14 states and the District of Colombia have outright bans on underage alchhol consumption. In 17 states, there are no minor consumption laws in private homes. In 19 states, there are specific situations in which minor consumption is allowed, usually limited to when the alcohol is served by the child's legal guardian.

Regardless, America's idiotic alcohol rules are why underage drinking is a problem.

I agree with you there, alot of my younger family members are like, what's the stigma behind it? What's so good about it that it's illegal for us to know what's going on?

I view encouraging your children to break the law as immoral. If he was encouraging her to smoke marijuana would that be okay too? I mean lots of people also think that smoking marijana should be legal. Agreed, I do think it should be legal. :D

To the OP, I think he's a terrible parent and I wouldn't go back around them.

PrincessTiffany
06-07-2009, 08:57 PM
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what kind of tangent some of you people are getting off into. The OP wasn't talking about segregation, wans't talking about 18 year olds going off to war, wasn't aren't talking about having a sip of wine with your dinner and wasn't talking about bars getting their liquor liscense taken away. The topic was a father encouraging his 13 year old CHILD to consume whiskey. There are certainly some gray areas in concern to underage drinking, but I can't see how this is one of them.

Maggie'sMom
06-07-2009, 08:59 PM
For those of you who keep stating it is illegal, in most states it is NOT illegal for a parent to give their child alcohol. In some states, it is only allowed in private homes, and other states allow it in restaurants.

I agree with the other posters who say the problems with binge drinking and such are the result of making alcohol taboo. Don't make it a forbidden fruit. That only increases teens' and young adults' desire to consume it.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 09:01 PM
I understand that and it was a sip not like it was the bottle. I guess its not a huge deal to me. I would beok if my kid tried a sip here and there

Bill and Jen
06-07-2009, 09:17 PM
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what kind of tangent some of you people are getting off into. The OP wasn't talking about segregation, wans't talking about 18 year olds going off to war, wasn't aren't talking about having a sip of wine with your dinner and wasn't talking about bars getting their liquor liscense taken away. The topic was a father encouraging his 13 year old CHILD to consume whiskey. There are certainly some gray areas in concern to underage drinking, but I can't see how this is one of them.

So most of Europe is plain wrong? I don't see how you can make a blanket statement like that. In many countries there is no such thing as underage drinking.

And it was a sip of whiskey not a 4 fingered shot, so to try and say there is a difference between a sip of wine and a sip of whiskey seems like a strange judment call.

When people start to condem or defend something (anything) based on illogical and fallacy laced logic, I like to point it out. As I have lurked on these boards for a bit I got fed up with seeing self rightoues and preachy posters so when I see it now I like to point it out.

Maybe I am mistaken but it seemed to me that the vast majority of outrage in this thread was about how it was morally wrong to break the law.

For all that being said, I think that the father forcing thier child to take a sip was wrong, however, not for the reasons I have seen in this thread.

PrincessTiffany
06-07-2009, 09:26 PM
So most of Europe is plain wrong? I don't see how you can make a blanket statement like that. In many countries there is no such thing as underage drinking.

And it was a sip of whiskey not a 4 fingered shot, so to try and say there is a difference between a sip of wine and a sip of whiskey seems like a strange judment call.

When people start to condem or defend something (anything) based on illogical and fallacy laced logic, I like to point it out. As I have lurked on these boards for a bit I got fed up with seeing self rightoues and preachy posters so when I see it now I like to point it out.

Maybe I am mistaken but it seemed to me that the vast majority of outrage in this thread was about how it was morally wrong to break the law.

For all that being said, I think that the father forcing thier child to take a sip was wrong, however, not for the reasons I have seen in this thread.
I don't live in Europe and neither does the OPs family. Why does everybody keep bringing that up? I could care less what they do in Europe. It's a nice place to visit, but we don't live there. And I'm not being preachy or self-righteous. I am the mother of a 13 year old girl. We do not offer her wine nor whiskey or any other alcoholic beverages. It is against the law and I, personally, would find it morally reprehensible to put MY child in the position. What exactly you find illogical about that, I just don't know.

Bill and Jen
06-07-2009, 09:47 PM
It is against the law and I, personally, would find it morally reprehensible to put MY child in the position. What exactly you find illogical about that, I just don't know.

What I find illogical is that you say that breaking the law is what is morally reprehensible, not the act of giving the drink.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what kind of tangent some of you people are getting off into. The OP wasn't talking about segregation...


I find categorically stating that breaking the law is morally reprehensible an illogical argument.

This is why I pointed out that laws are not the reason to set your moral compass. In most cases the 2 overlap. I pointed out 1 out of many, many, many, examples where the law was not morally sound and I would say it was morally reprehensible to obey the law.

Once again, I think the father was wrong but for very different reason then it was against the law.

PrincessKsMom
06-07-2009, 09:51 PM
I am going to have to agree with pp's here who say that they do not see anything wrong. I think that parents who are open about alcohol raise childern who see no mystery in the "forbidden fruit" and do not end up binge drinking ect in their teen years. If they see a parent with a healthy relationship to alcohol, who knows when they have had enough and drinks responsibly they are much more likely to model that behavior and less likely to "go wild." Teen binge drinking and alcoholism is much,much less common in Europe than the US b/c children are taught from an early age that alcohol is nothing special or mystical, and are how to handle alcohol responsibly. I think that is a major failing in alcohol education in the US. Telling a child that alcohol is bad and never to drick ect, is clearly not an effective education program, especialy when they know that a parent drinks.

That's assuming that the parents, themselves, have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Too many times, in my experience, it's the parents who don't have a healthy relationship with alcohol, that encourage their kids to try it, and think it's cute or funny. I don't agree with letting children try alcohol, just like I don't agree with letting children drive cars or smoke cigarettes. Not sure what OP could do about the situation, other than talk to her own kids about why she believes it wrong.

dimimi
06-07-2009, 09:53 PM
Please do not tell my 15 YO DD this!:lmao: We live in WI.

Actually, most establishments (if not all) in WI will not put their liquor licenses at risk by allowing a parent to let a minor have alcohol.

This really applies to "at home" situations.

In Ohio this applies to at home situations. But the parent must hand the alcohol to the child.

Bill and Jen
06-07-2009, 09:58 PM
That's assuming that the parents, themselves, have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Too many times, in my experience, it's the parents who don't have a healthy relationship with alcohol, that encourage their kids to try it, and think it's cute or funny. I don't agree with letting children try alcohol, just like I don't agree with letting children drive cars or smoke cigarettes. Not sure what OP could do about the situation, other than talk to her own kids about why she believes it wrong.

I think your idea is the best possible thing the OP could do. It brings up a great oppertunity for a talk about alcohol.

kevschickee
06-07-2009, 10:01 PM
I think we all need a drink right about now

parkers*momma
06-07-2009, 10:08 PM
I am going to have to agree with pp's here who say that they do not see anything wrong. I think that parents who are open about alcohol raise childern who see no mystery in the "forbidden fruit" and do not end up binge drinking ect in their teen years. If they see a parent with a healthy relationship to alcohol, who knows when they have had enough and drinks responsibly they are much more likely to model that behavior and less likely to "go wild." Teen binge drinking and alcoholism is much,much less common in Europe than the US b/c children are taught from an early age that alcohol is nothing special or mystical, and are how to handle alcohol responsibly. I think that is a major failing in alcohol education in the US. Telling a child that alcohol is bad and never to drick ect, is clearly not an effective education program, especialy when they know that a parent drinks.

I tend to disagree with the above statement (in Bold). We chose to raise our children in an alcohol-free enviroment. We don't allow it on the property, we don't allow ppl who have been drinking in our home, etc.. We have 5 children-ages 29, 24, 21, 16 and 8, plus our adopted son who is 19 and just left in Jan for the Air Force. None of them drink, none of them have tried it and those that are out on their own, don't allow it on their property. Yes, they have friends who drink and our children are the responsible ones as they are always the DD when they are out with friends. In our case, we have always been have had an open communication with our children and it seems to work well.

As to the OP, I wouldn't say anything unless it was directly affecting me or my immediate family. If it was on our property or offered to our children, then I would say something. But I would surely talk to my children about what they had witnessed and why it is wrong.

I actually feel sorry for that lil girl, she clearly didn't want any part of the alcohol but out of respect for her father, she did what she was asked.

Funny I have always worried about peer pressure from my children's friends pushing them into drinking and here is this child having to deal with it from her father. Kinda like teaching her to cave into pressure, don't you think?

CLR4321
06-07-2009, 10:10 PM
I dont think its a big deal to give a kid a sip or 2 of alcohol. If they were mixing the kids up their own drinks with alcohol, ya I would say something. Sips aren't a big deal IMO, nor is giving the kids non-alcoholic drinks in glasses. As far as the parent telling the kid to smell and sip the alcohol after saying no....I believe the parent should have taken the no answer.

PrincessTiffany
06-07-2009, 10:17 PM
What I find illogical is that you say that breaking the law is what is morally reprehensible, not the act of giving the drink.




I find categorically stating that breaking the law is morally reprehensible an illogical argument.

This is why I pointed out that laws are not the reason to set your moral compass. In most cases the 2 overlap. I pointed out 1 out of many, many, many, examples where the law was not morally sound and I would say it was morally reprehensible to obey the law.

Once again, I think the father was wrong but for very different reason then it was against the law.
No, actually I find both of those things morally reprehensible - forcing the drink on the child and his encouragement of the breaking of the law.

Bill and Jen
06-07-2009, 10:34 PM
No, actually I find both of those things morally reprehensible - forcing the drink on the child and his encouragement of the breaking of the law.

Well we half agree :)

windycitymom
06-07-2009, 11:14 PM
Funny I have always worried about peer pressure from my children's friends pushing them into drinking and here is this child having to deal with it from her father. Kinda like teaching her to cave into pressure, don't you think?

Exactly! This girl did not ask for a sip. Her father approached her, she said NO and he continued to push it. That bothers me the most. I worry that one day she will take it, or worse, be the one who sneaks in the alcohol at a friend's party. At his house, he is always trying to push alcohol on the adults and trying to get them to do shots with him. This is what his daughter is seeing. I don't see this as a healthy way to teach your children about alcohol.

I do appreciate everyone's replies - it's been interesting.

tasha99
06-07-2009, 11:33 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it--I remember my dad being shocked once when a restaurant refused to get me a small glass of wine with dinner. I was about 12, lol. My brother made beer for his high school biology project, and both my parents AND the school allowed it (oh, how times have changed.)

Buckeye Princess
06-07-2009, 11:41 PM
My parents were not big drinkers, but my sister and I were always allowed to have a taste if they were drinking. When we were older (around 16-20) we were allowed to have a small glass of wine or a weak mixed drink with them. This taught me that alcohol was something to be enjoyed in small amounts, as opposed to downing shots at some crazy party. I never binge drank when in college because alcohol wasn't a big deal.

bumbershoot
06-08-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't live in Europe and neither does the OPs family. Why does everybody keep bringing that up?

Because it shows that it's not an overall human condition that it's wrong for those under 21 to drink. That in many countries (probably most of the world...I have a feeling that Americans are the oddballs in this way along with so many other ways) alcohol isn't such a big deal AND they don't have as big a problem with alcohol.

I tend to disagree with the above statement (in Bold). We chose to raise our children in an alcohol-free enviroment. We don't allow it on the property, we don't allow ppl who have been drinking in our home, etc.. We have 5 children-ages 29, 24, 21, 16 and 8, plus our adopted son who is 19 and just left in Jan for the Air Force. None of them drink, none of them have tried it and those that are out on their own, don't allow it on their property. Yes, they have friends who drink and our children are the responsible ones as they are always the DD when they are out with friends. In our case, we have always been have had an open communication with our children and it seems to work well.


From my experience in the universe, I'd say that if your kids really don't drink as grown people, then you have been exceedingly lucky. Because most people that I have known in my life who are raised utterly without alcohol have the biggest binging problems. Count your lucky stars.

No, actually I find both of those things morally reprehensible - forcing the drink on the child and his encouragement of the breaking of the law.

Again, you keep talking about the law breaking. In most states, it is NOT illegal for a parent to allow their own child to have a bit of alcohol. Therefore, if this happened in one of those many states, NO law was broken.



I would probably assume the OP heard or saw the situation wrong. Or misunderstood why the daughter was not wanting some (maybe it embarrasses her to have some around family that will judge it). Or maybe it's just a rotten dad. Who knows? But I don't see anything morally reprehensible about a parent allowing a child to have a taste of alcohol when it's legal to do so.

WeLoveLilo05
06-08-2009, 01:00 AM
While in Disney, me and fiance almost died...

We were stuck in Germany, trying to stray dry by the pretzel stand, snacking on a pretzel when 2 women came out of a store (apparently there was a wine tasting thing going on?!?! or something). They approached their hubbies who had 2 kiddos. One was probably 3-4 and the other was older, probably 7-8. The ladies were giggling and had wine glasses in their hands, they then told the kids to try it!!! The 4 year old smelt it and said NO WAY and mom was STILL pushing her to try it!!! She finally did and was disgusted and mom laughed and offered another sip to her daughter. This family may have had European ancestry, but were clearly Americans.

I could not believe it, I don't force my child to eat meatloaf....nevermind drink alcohol!

Did I say anything? No, just minded my own.
But it bothered me.
To me it is kind of like offering DD a cigarette. Just my opinion :goodvibes

crisi
06-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Mind your own business.

A lot of people do things with their kids I find questionable - sometimes illegal. You know what, they aren't my kids. If I were going to be the parenting cop and have everyone raise kids the way I think they ought to be raised, I'd spend a lot of time being irate.

Plenty of kids have grown up drinking alcohol, and most of them do not become drunks. Plenty of kids grow up around no alcohol, and most of them do not become drunks.

dbmarie
06-08-2009, 07:20 AM
Nothing wrong with it, its just like in Europe. I was raised the same way, my parents were always offering me sips of wine as young as 8 or 9. It's perfectly normal, and maybe if the United States was more like that, underage drinking and binge drinking wouldn't be a big deal in the U.S., as it isn't in most of Europe.
Have you actually every seen any college kids from Europe? They clearly have a problem with alcohol.

EthansMom
06-08-2009, 07:45 AM
While I don't think it was good idea for the parent to "force" alcohol on the child, I don't see anything wrong with a child having a sip of alcohol.

My husband brews craft beers and makes wine as well. Like others have posted, we believe that it's better to teach our children to drink responsibly than to make alcohol a forbidden item until the magic age of 21 (when they are set free to binge to their heart's content).

Our young children have had a sip of alcohol at different times, but we're raising them to understand that alcohol is a "grown-up drink" and that drinking too much alcohol is bad for them. While we will allow our children to have a modest drink (say a half-glass with dinner) when they are teens, we would never serve alcohol to someone else's child.

IMO, teaching children about appropriate consumption of alcohol is as important as teaching them about illegal drugs.

Unless I saw an adult giving alcohol to someone else's child or supplying their own child with an excess of alcohol, I wouldn't say anything.

PrincessTiffany
06-08-2009, 07:54 AM
Because it shows that it's not an overall human condition that it's wrong for those under 21 to drink. That in many countries (probably most of the world...I have a feeling that Americans are the oddballs in this way along with so many other ways) alcohol isn't such a big deal AND they don't have as big a problem with alcohol.



From my experience in the universe, I'd say that if your kids really don't drink as grown people, then you have been exceedingly lucky. Because most people that I have known in my life who are raised utterly without alcohol have the biggest binging problems. Count your lucky stars.



Again, you keep talking about the law breaking. In most states, it is NOT illegal for a parent to allow their own child to have a bit of alcohol. Therefore, if this happened in one of those many states, NO law was broken.



I would probably assume the OP heard or saw the situation wrong. Or misunderstood why the daughter was not wanting some (maybe it embarrasses her to have some around family that will judge it). Or maybe it's just a rotten dad. Who knows? But I don't see anything morally reprehensible about a parent allowing a child to have a taste of alcohol when it's legal to do so.
Encouraging it or forcing it on a child when they don't want it IS reprehensible to ME.

kevschickee
06-08-2009, 08:01 AM
.
Have you actually every seen any college kids from Europe? They clearly have a problem with alcohol.


wow that is quite a blanket statment. I have seen college kids from Portugal and no they don't have the drinking problems that they do here in the states.

penjen
06-08-2009, 08:07 AM
My aunt and uncle have been very turn the other way with their children and alcohol. At my cousins high school graduation the kids 16+ were openly drinking at the graduation party. The drinking age here is 21. Fast forward 2 years my then 16 yo cousin whom is now 18 has had 2 DWIs in the past few months. So for me I will stick with the idea that it isn't right for children to drink at an early age not even when they are with thier parents. I'm sure there are other problems that I'm not aware of, obviously!

Free4Life11
06-08-2009, 08:19 AM
"Morally wrong" How so?

No means no. For God's sake, you should not have to worry about "peer pressure" coming from your parents!

I completly agree about the laws. In Portugal you don't see the drinking and driving, the binge drinking and the violence you see here because of drinking.

Oh really? Nobody in all of Portugal ever drives after they drink or gets a little angry after drinking? Get real.

Teen binge drinking and alcoholism is much,much less common in Europe than the US b/c children are taught from an early age that alcohol is nothing special or mystical, and are how to handle alcohol responsibly. I think that is a major failing in alcohol education in the US.

Oh really?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/60295

Something radical is happening across Europe. Overall, European adults are drinking less, especially in such countries as France, where wine and the good life have always gone hand in hand. Yet Europe's teenagers are drinking more and more--and they're doing it at a younger age. Worse, it's not just drinking--it's binge drinking. Gunning's chugfest was hardly unusual. Nowadays, having a dozen drinks is almost de rigueur for a weekend out. And the social costs--drunken driving, delinquency, suicides, fights, teen pregnancy--are mounting. The trend is fueled in part by slick alcohol advertising campaigns, new beverage products that appeal to youngsters and an emerging globo-party culture promoted in Western teen movies and at the raves and drink-sponsored rock festivals that have become so popular in recent years.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1165002/British-teenagers-binge-drinking-champions-Europe.html

British teenagers are among the worst binge drinkers in Europe, with girls more likely to get drunk than boys, claim researchers.

A European survey reveals 'chronic' drinking problems in 15 and 16-year-olds, which leads to rifts with parents, unplanned pregnancies and injuries.

The survey found more than half of teenagers in the UK have been binge-drinking in the past month - defined as five or more drinks on any one occasion.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17614579/

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Binge drinking continues to be a problem in Ireland, Britain, Finland and Denmark, according to a European Union survey of alcohol consumption released Wednesday.

The poll, conducted in October and November, found that almost one in five people between the ages of 15 and 24 reported drinking five or more alcoholic beverages in one session, or 19 percent of those asked across the 27-nation bloc, Croatia and northern Cyprus.

I'm all for parents teaching their kids how to responsibly enjoy alcohol, but a father forcing his daughter to try his whiskey doesn't sound like he is teaching her anything other that to be a pushover!

lmountford
06-08-2009, 10:23 AM
.
Have you actually every seen any college kids from Europe? They clearly have a problem with alcohol.

Having been a college kid from Europe ( many moons ago) I can assure that I didn't and I don't :-)

Colleen27
06-08-2009, 10:56 AM
I agree that giving her whiskey, when she clearly did not want it, was wrong and sent her the wrong message. What will happen when a peer offers it to her....she probably will think she can't say no, especially if she can't say no to her father.

That would be my problem with it too. I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent allowing small amounts of alcohol, as we've done in the past with our kids by pouring a sip of wine for a NYE or special occasion toast, but there is something very, very wrong with pushing it.

dbmarie
06-08-2009, 08:05 PM
Having been a college kid from Europe ( many moons ago) I can assure that I didn't and I don't :-)
I would assume based solely on my experience with exchange students and relatives from Europe that there are people with alcohol problems. I merely meant that Europeans are not without their share of alcohol problems. Alcoholism is not based on how you are raised.

HelenePA
06-08-2009, 08:10 PM
Alcoholism is not based on how you are raised.

Yep my mom turned into an Alcoholic after my great grandmother died (loooonnnggg story) I have no problems with alcohol.. I haven't had one in almost 2 years..

Kriii
06-08-2009, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=MAH4546;32173580].

In Wisconsin, children are allowed to drink beer and wine if accompanied with their parents.

Wisconsin also leads the country in alcoholism and drunk driving so I don't think the lax laws are anything to be proud about.

PinkRhombus
06-08-2009, 08:13 PM
WWYD?

This I wouldn't worry about so much. I don't think that I would offer it to my own kids though. Whiskey is gross IMO...bad experience...won't get into it.

BUT providing it in quantity, for example, a couple of cases or a keg, for a high school graduation party. I would have a BIG problem with. I would throw a big fit if my kids went to a party later in high school and that happened.

Faith09
06-08-2009, 08:24 PM
I love to watch my mother boyfriend drink wine coolers...Don't ask me why. He use to pick me up from school on certain days. One day he ask me where would I like to have dinner. After having dinner at Pizza Hut he went to the store and purchased wine coolers. My mother was working that day. I ask him if I could have one he said sureeeeeeeee. I opened that bottle and turned it upside down. He told me it was lady like to sip on it slowly...lol..When my mother arrived home she noticed I was acting strange but Tony and I denied anything was wrong. Well that night I threw up all night long:scared1:. I WAS SICK AS A DOG. The next morning Tony told my mom what happened. TO this day I WOULDN'T DRINK ANYTHING THAT CONTAINS ALCOHOL.....Tony also explained to me when grown ups are sitting around talking and having fun, I should be playing with other kids and not be in between growups conversation. Well he didn't have to tell me twice..I learned my lesson and never thought of him drinking wine coolers was cool anymore.:rotfl2:

MrsPete
06-08-2009, 08:59 PM
WWYD? I was at a family birthday party and I see one of the dad's offer his 13 year old daughter a sip of his alcohol (he had a shot glass of whiskey). She turns him down, and he says "go ahead and smell it". She smells it. He then says "go ahead and take a sip". She takes a sip even though she clearly doesn't want to. Both the mom and dad are very open with alcohol and even have no problem letting their toddlers take a sip of a beer. The mom loves to serve the other kids at the party non-alcoholic dacquari drinks in real martini glasses.:eek: They come from a european culture where drinking is no big deal.

I find it very disturbing, but it's really none of my business. These people are extended family members so I can't avoid them. Yet, watching stuff like this makes me so mad!:mad: What would you do?It doesn't sound like these people are buying into the "European culture where drinking is no big deal". It sounds like they're pushing alcohol on a child who doesn't want it.

The big difference between Europeans and Americans -- when it comes to drinking, that is -- is that Europeans tend to see alcohol as a beverage, whereas Americans see it as something more. Moderation isn't one of our greatest strengths in America.

Sadly, I suspect this family's going to have children with some alcohol problems. Your family can be European, but if the children are rasied in America, you have to look at alcohol through American eyes.

MrsPete
06-08-2009, 09:05 PM
I'm all for parents teaching their kids how to responsibly enjoy alcohol, but a father forcing his daughter to try his whiskey doesn't sound like he is teaching her anything other that to be a pushover!All parents teach their children about alcohol. The lessons begin from the moment the child is old enough to understand that a glass of wine or a beer isn't the same thing as a Coke. If the parent practices moderation, the child will learn that this is the proper way to drink. If the parent considers it "okay" to get behind the wheel after having a couple, the child will believe this in spite of what his driver's ed teacher tells him. If the child sees his mother pass out glasses of wine to all the adults, but a glass of juice to his pregnant aunt, he's going to understand that drinking during pregnancy is bad.

However, these lessons are learned THROUGH OBSERVATION, not by actually giving the child anything to drink himself.

princessmom29
06-08-2009, 09:12 PM
No means no. For God's sake, you should not have to worry about "peer pressure" coming from your parents!



Oh really? Nobody in all of Portugal ever drives after they drink or gets a little angry after drinking? Get real.



Oh really?







I'm all for parents teaching their kids how to responsibly enjoy alcohol, but a father forcing his daughter to try his whiskey doesn't sound like he is teaching her anything other that to be a pushover!

In respone to the oh really, yes really. Take a look at the statistics if you don't believe me. There is a significantly lower incidince of teenage binge drinking in Europe versus the United States. There is also a lower drunk driving rate, and a lowe incidence of alcohol related vehicle fatalities.

princessmom29
06-08-2009, 09:17 PM
[QUOTE=MAH4546;32173580].

In Wisconsin, children are allowed to drink beer and wine if accompanied with their parents.

Wisconsin also leads the country in alcoholism and drunk driving so I don't think the lax laws are anything to be proud about.

I don't necessarily think it is so much "lax laws" that make the difference between the US and Europe, but the cultural treatment of alcohol in general. changing the law doesn't help if alcohol is still viewed as taboo. The social stigma makes it into something teens want to do to assert their independence. Take away the stigma and the motivation to rebel goes with it b/c there is nothing to rebel agianst.

kevschickee
06-08-2009, 09:19 PM
No means no. For God's sake, you should not have to worry about "peer pressure" coming from your parents!



Oh really? Nobody in all of Portugal ever drives after they drink or gets a little angry after drinking? Get real.



Oh really?







I'm all for parents teaching their kids how to responsibly enjoy alcohol, but a father forcing his daughter to try his whiskey doesn't sound like he is teaching her anything other that to be a pushover!


Never said nobody ever did that in Portugal. It isn't as prevelant there as it is here. I have family there ( a lot) and it isn't the same thing over there. So yes I am real about this.

princessmom29
06-08-2009, 09:21 PM
.
Have you actually every seen any college kids from Europe? They clearly have a problem with alcohol.

I have seen many, many college kids form Eruope. I spent a summer abroad in France. Drunk French young people were rare. It was much more common to see young Americans who were underage at home so drunk they couldn't stand.

princessmom29
06-08-2009, 09:31 PM
That's assuming that the parents, themselves, have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Too many times, in my experience, it's the parents who don't have a healthy relationship with alcohol, that encourage their kids to try it, and think it's cute or funny. I don't agree with letting children try alcohol, just like I don't agree with letting children drive cars or smoke cigarettes. Not sure what OP could do about the situation, other than talk to her own kids about why she believes it wrong.
The cycle of unhealthy relationships with alcohol has to be broken somewher along the chain. Parents with an unhealthy relatinoship with alcohol need to fix it for the sake of their kids just like children with abusive parents have to break the cycle of abuse with their own kids by exhibiting healthy behavior.
I tend to disagree with the above statement (in Bold). We chose to raise our children in an alcohol-free enviroment. We don't allow it on the property, we don't allow ppl who have been drinking in our home, etc.. We have 5 children-ages 29, 24, 21, 16 and 8, plus our adopted son who is 19 and just left in Jan for the Air Force. None of them drink, none of them have tried it and those that are out on their own, don't allow it on their property. Yes, they have friends who drink and our children are the responsible ones as they are always the DD when they are out with friends. In our case, we have always been have had an open communication with our children and it seems to work well.

As to the OP, I wouldn't say anything unless it was directly affecting me or my immediate family. If it was on our property or offered to our children, then I would say something. But I would surely talk to my children about what they had witnessed and why it is wrong.

I actually feel sorry for that lil girl, she clearly didn't want any part of the alcohol but out of respect for her father, she did what she was asked.

Funny I have always worried about peer pressure from my children's friends pushing them into drinking and here is this child having to deal with it from her father. Kinda like teaching her to cave into pressure, don't you think?

You are luky if you have kids that don't drink b/c in my experience the kids of parents who completely forbid alcohol were the first ones to overdo it in college. I just don't feel like forbiding alcohol does any good at all. In general teens and young adults ARE going to drink. 85% OF 18-20 surveyed in Mississippi universities had used alcohol in the last month according to th literature the anti-alcohol people handed out on campus when i was in school , And that is just from the ones willing to admit it on a survey.

JulieEck
06-08-2009, 10:54 PM
From my experience in the universe, I'd say that if your kids really don't drink as grown people, then you have been exceedingly lucky. Because most people that I have known in my life who are raised utterly without alcohol have the biggest binging problems. Count your lucky stars.

You are lucky if you have kids that don't drink b/c in my experience the kids of parents who completely forbid alcohol were the first ones to overdo it in college. I just don't feel like forbiding alcohol does any good at all.

In my experience, this couldn't be further from the truth. Me, my sister and my brother were raised with no alcohol in our house. We were taught that it was not something you do. I remember my parents getting a bottle of wine from someone as a Christmas present one year. It sat and sat and sat in the fridge - unopened. I think they finally poured it down the drain. None of us ever did the binge drinking/getting drunk, etc. I never even tasted alcohol until after I was married awhile. (Unless you count the Nyquil my mom gave me one time...) I've had probably a half of dozen wine coolers over the past 15 years. DH and his sister and brother also grew up around no alcohol and they never overdid/do it either. Nobody I hung out with in high school or college drank (that I know about anyway). It was simply a non-issue. It was something you didn't do - no questions asked. Just like drugs, smoking, etc. None of that went on with the groups I hung with in high school and college.

I actually can't think of anyone I know that has gotten drunk, binged, passed out etc. I don't know anyone who has used drugs (illegal, obviously).

I don't think luck has anything to do with it. I think it has everything to do with how you are raised, what you are taught by your parents, and who you associate yourself with.

onelostsockie
06-09-2009, 02:23 AM
I actually can't think of anyone I know that has gotten drunk, binged, passed out etc. I don't know anyone who has used drugs (illegal, obviously).

:offtopic:

I just had to say:

Wow.

buzz5985
06-09-2009, 03:03 AM
wow that is quite a blanket statment. I have seen college kids from Portugal and no they don't have the drinking problems that they do here in the states.

Back at ya!! Wow that is quite a blanket statement. Spelled correctly.

NHdisneylover
06-09-2009, 07:09 AM
.
Have you actually every seen any college kids from Europe? They clearly have a problem with alcohol.

Well, I live in a university town here in Europe. Do I see (and here about) loud parties, drunken kids (and adults) behaving badly and putting themselves and others at risk? ABO****ELY. However I see it much, MUCH less than I did in the college towns I lived in in the U.S. (including the one I grew up in) and even less than I saw it in our little New Hampshire town no where near a university, not too long ago. Among the few such instances I see here (maybe 10% of what I see in the U.S. if that)--fully half to three quarters are American kids speaking English in American (slurred) accents. We have a lot of U.S. citizens in the area due largely to the millitary bases around here.

As to the OP--the fact that a sip of alcohol was offered to the 13 year old does not strike me as a problem at all. I am one of those who thinks the typical American approach to alcohol contributes greatly to the problems we have with it. I freely admit I offer my kids sips when I have some (I drink about 2-3 glasses of wine in a month if that, but DH has about one glass of wine or one beer each evening with dinner). They may end up having 10 sips in a year and a small galss of cahmpaign for New Years. We serve all kinds of mixed drinks at parties and make non alcoholic versions for the kids (in fancy glasses). We also have "kid wine" (sparkling grape juice) for just about every special occasion. Gracious--last month we were driving along the Champagne route in France and stopped at a vineyard for a tasting. DD12 tasted all three along with us. She took tiny sips--she is not fond of the taste but wanted to try them. On hte other hand, they know neither DH nor I drive with more tha na few sips in us--EVER. They see us talk about who will be driving at teh start of an evening out. They have seen us take away a guests keys and put him up for the night so he does not drive home drunk (and they know why). We have relaly made a point to educate them about how drink safely and what is really okay and not okay. I htink MANY parents take this approach and it is a great approach to take with children.

Here is where I think the dad in the OP's scenario was wrong (as others have already pointed out): The girl said "no" and he pushed her. We offered my DS the chance to taste champaign also and he did not want to--no biggie to us. Why should we push that?:confused3 Parents who pressure children to do thinsg they aren't willing to do (ready to handle) should not be surprised when their kids cave to peer pressure.

OP--from your subsequent post it sounds like your family member is modeling very bad drinking habits to his daughter and pushing her to do things she is not comfortable with. I can see where that would bother you (like I am bothered by family that pushes a child to do "scary" things like bungee jump and big thrill rides and she is just terrified and they taunt her about it and teach her to give in to pressure). THAT is not good. But, there is really nothing you can do or say about it. The dad is not being abusive (emotionally maybe a tad there but even that is a strech) or neglectful--he's just being a poor example and a poor father and it is not your perogative to say antyhing about it. He may think you do crazy things with your kids too.

So, What would I do? Nothing.

JB2K
06-09-2009, 08:19 AM
What would you do?

They come from a european culture where drinking is no big deal.

You anserwed your own question -- many Europeans (Germany, in particular) don't have the same concerns over "adult" beverages that we have.

That said, since you were in their home, I would leave it alone.

teddygurlkeekee
06-09-2009, 08:35 AM
Not to start a huge debate, but how come I can send my 18 year old to war but he can't drink a beer legally until he's 21? I mean, this is how it's been for quite awhile but I think that's where the binge drinking in college comes from. "Oh I'm not 'allowed' until I'm 21, so I'll drink all I can until I am legal".



I am in the military and have been for almost 4 years now. I joined when I was 17 years old and just turned 21 about 2 weeks. I completely agree with this statement you posted. Not just because I had to wait to legally drink, but because they are sending me and my friends overseas to potentially life threatening situations, but we can't handle alcohol? I'm alright to shoot another person, but not drink?

I agree with many of the statements on here about hte taboo put on it and that is why we have so many drinking problems. Education is the key to anything.

Free4Life11
06-09-2009, 09:01 AM
In respone to the oh really, yes really. Take a look at the statistics if you don't believe me. There is a significantly lower incidince of teenage binge drinking in Europe versus the United States. There is also a lower drunk driving rate, and a lowe incidence of alcohol related vehicle fatalities.

What statistics? You haven't posted any. What have you have posted sounds anecdotal, at best. I posted a number of articles that discuss how binge drinking is seriously increasing in many European countries.

Here's another article discussing the "healthy" drinking habits of European youths.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1823730,00.html

Recent data indicates that while alcohol consumption has generally dropped in France across all age categories over the past decade, it has begun to skyrocket among those minors who say they drink. The most recent official figures show that 12% of people under the age of 18 qualify as regular drinkers, compared with 22% among adults. However, 26% of those frequently consuming French minors admit to having been repeatedly drunk within the previous year, compared with just 5.5% among their adult counterparts. Worse still, fully half of 17-year-olds reported having been drunk at least once during the previous month.

The government has made ambitious plans to tackle the problem head-on. French Health Minister Roselyne Bachelot announced that she would scrap France's relatively permissive rules on sales of alcohol to youths. She told the Sunday paper Journal du Dimanche that she would impose a "total prohibition of alcohol sale to minors" by early 2009, and would also ban open bars during celebrations. Open-bar bashes — where participants can drink unlimited quantities of alcohol in exchange for a flat fee — have become, Bachelot says, a "classic element of student parties that encourages binge-drinking." All that underage chugging, Bachelot says, explains the 50% increase in the number of 15-to-24-year-olds hospitalized for excessive alcohol consumption between 2004 and 2007. It's also why alcohol is now the leading factor in deaths among young French people.

jessaboo
06-09-2009, 09:28 AM
Not my business, but it makes me mad.


I was hit by an underage drunk driver, and thrown 52 feet from my car WITH MY SEATBELT ON. My cousin, who was in the passenger seat, died on impact.


I'm against it yes.
But is it any of our business?
Nope.

NHdisneylover
06-09-2009, 10:42 AM
What statistics? You haven't posted any. What have you have posted sounds anecdotal, at best. I posted a number of articles that discuss how binge drinking is seriously increasing in many European countries.

Here's another article discussing the "healthy" drinking habits of European youths.

Hmmm, you have posted stats to say the problems are getting worse in EUrope than they have been in Europe before. This does not mean they are worse in Europe than in the United States.

A quick google search pulled up this article:

http://www.youthfacts.org/student1.html

The section that would seem to relate here is:
"The United States has one of the highest drinking ages in the world. In most of Europe the drinking age is 16 and for the majority of the world the drinking age is 18. Drinking rates among European teens tend to be higher, but fewer teens reported being drunk in the past 30 days. 21% of American teens versus 13% of European teens reported being drunk according to “Alcohol: Problems and Solutions,” a website dedicated to alcohol awareness and laws. "


and this:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/controversies/20060830115118.html

Here is what I found interesting/pretinent in the above link:
"Critics counter that a lower drinking age in some European social democracies has produced an epidemic of alcohol abuse. World Health Organization data, however, indicate huge differences among European states with similar drinking ages.

The legal drinking age seems to be less important than the culture and practices surrounding alcohol.

Even one prominently featured article in the recent New York Times critique of underage drinking, from the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, comments: "Italy, France, Portugal and Greece had similar or smaller percentages [of teen binge drinkers] than the United States. Whether young people in those countries are more likely to drink with family and in meal settings and whether such practices moderate risks posed by early drinking warrant study."

Such study is under way. Brown University anthropologist Dwight Heath has identified characteristics of several Southern European subcultures where teens legally drink as early as 16 but binging and the violence that often accompanies excess are much less common. These cultures teach their teens something many American politicians can't grasp - the difference between moderation and abuse. Teenagers have two equally acceptable options: (a) to abstain or (b) to drink in moderation. Parents do more than remove car keys. They teach and model in their lives the lesson that abuse of alcohol at any age is totally unacceptable."

Honestly I have seen data to support both sides of the argument presented many times over. Many (most I think) studies on teen drinking rely on teens to self report their behavoiur. This is going to skew statistics and beyond that we all know what spin can do.

Tink-aholic
06-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Not my business, but it makes me mad.


I was hit by an underage drunk driver, and thrown 52 feet from my car WITH MY SEATBELT ON. My cousin, who was in the passenger seat, died on impact.


I'm against it yes.
But is it any of our business?
Nope.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. :hug:

pilesoflaundry
06-09-2009, 06:42 PM
When I was 10 my dad gave me a glass of whiskey straight and told me it was juice and go ahead and chug it. I did and boy did that burn like a SOB! I choked, he laughed and I never drank another drop until adulthood.

I still very rarely drink.

He's a very functional alcoholic. I can't tell if he did it because he was drunk and thought it was funny or to keep me from doing it. He also always let my brother drink beer at home because he felt it was better to have one or two with dad at 15 then have 10 with his friends and get in the car.

I wouldn't be bothered they offered it, it's more that she clearly didn't want it and her dad pushed it that bugs me. The toddler having a little beer is a bit much too. Pre-teens or teens and teaching them is one thing but toddlers is scary.