Can we “Stipulate” to anything?

[DVC-Landbaron]

On another thread I postulated that even Car #1 and Car #3 folks can agree on some things. I cited Dino-rama among others. Scoop disagreed (I think) as usual.

So the question is: Can we stipulate to anything? Is there some common ground we can find? Anything that is a little less (more like a lot less) than the Disney charm we’re all used to. Hours? DCA? AK? Mickey head butter? EE? E-ticket nights? Whatever!!!!

Your turn! :)

[airlarry!]

I nominate monorail access. No expansion since 1982.

[Bob O]

Sad but we have have to agree to disagree!!

[airlarry!]

Bob. Are you disagreeing with a monorail expansion? What if it had a B&M propulsion with an inversion, corkskrew, and was one of those with no floor and went from the TTC to Animal Kingdom in 1.2 minutes?

;)

Jes joshin' ya, Bob.

[All Aboard]

As the lone voice of Car #2, I'll stipulate to the following:

1) Eisner (on his own) has been bad for Disney
2) Elimination of EE was a very bad guest service decision
3) Dinorama is the most disappointing theme park addition I can remember
4) Pop Century (especially the "words") is an embarassment
5) WDW theme park hour reductions are stripping away the guest experience
6) The Speedway never should have been built
7) Closing CoP during most of the 100 years celebration was blasphemy
8) Delaying Epcot opening to 10am was a feeble attempt to save a few bucks that caused an opening hour nightmare
9) AK opened with too few attractions, Dinosaur is a waste of good technology and Kali is too short.
1) Disney-MGM Studios rushed to completion and missed the mark causing a haphazard series of additions that have created a park with little cohesion and a horrible layout. (But, the attractions themselves are quite nice.)

Issues to which I will NOT stipulate:

1) Park maintenance is on the decline
2) Charging for valet parking is a bad thing
3) AKL is nothing more than a well decorated Hilton
4) Imagineers are to blame for Dinorama
5) Traffic at DD is the biggest problem at WDW
6) The All Stars do not fit in at WDW
7) The Golf Resort is up to the same level of "Disney" as the Poly and Contemp
8) The presence of more "rude" cast members
9) The Disney Institute was a stupid mistake
10) The old Disney Marketplace was any more "Magical" than DD
11) The character meal "ruined" the Crystal Palace
12) WDW needs a gigacoaster

[Eeyore1954]

Being totally clueless about what Car#1 and Car #2 is all about, I find myself sitting in the passenger's seat of Car#2 with Gcurling! (So you are no longer the lone passenger in Car#2. Is this a good thing or not? :confused: ) I agree with every one of his points (except maybe the gigacoaster :D ! Sorry, gcurling, when you head for the coasters, I have to get out of the car!:D Just not a rollercoaster fan.

[All Aboard]

Eeyore, you misread my post. The gigacoaster is on my list of things I WON'T stipulate to. I DON'T want one either.

But I guess that means you disagree with everything on the second half of my list.

[Eeyore1954]

Duh, just label me Clueless in Chicago! :D Yes, I misread your post. So let me clarify:

I agree 100% without reservation, hesitation, deviation or exception with every point Gcurling made in his FIRST post. :)

I will gladly sit and STAY in the passenger seat of Car#2 and keep my new friend company.

(Now can someone disgress for one post and fill me in on the Car#1 and Car#2 or is that too much history to try to compress into 1 post? Again, just call me Clueless! :jester:

[DisneyKidds]

Eeyore1954, you probably did your detective work as I did and figured out which (or witch ;) ) car you were in based on the context of these many convoluted discussions :crazy: - not the easiest thing to do :). Of course, then I finally looked to the top of the first page on this board and found the 'carpool poll'. The clouds parted, the sun shined through, and I finally had a complete understanding of what the cars were (if that is really possible :jester: ).

BTW - we have yet to find anything we can all stipulate to, no? As such, I will remain silent a tad longer on this one :p .

[Captain Crook]

There is really very little room for stipulation between cars because as we're (finally) noticing there is quite a bit of single issue disagreement between members of cars. Scoop & I philosophically agree across the board but still I have no problem with D-R, the Contemp-wings or Pop.

It's good to note these differences because we are all guilty of lumping car memebers together (I know I am). Therefore I think we need to sometimes be more specific in whom we're debating...

Nice try anyway, Jeff!


:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[All Aboard]

As for Greg's list, very, very interesting. I'm trying to find an overall "philisophy" of yours but I just can't figure it out. Of course, maybe that's why you're in the mysterious Car 2.Chad, it's really rather simple:

If you agree with both halves of my list, you're in Car #2

If you agree with the top, but not the bottom, you're in Car #3

If you agree with the bottom but not the top, you're in Car #1

With the exception of the coaster comment, of course. There, you're alone in the corkscrew with BobO. :)

[airlarry!]

M. Gcurling,

Before I saw your list, I noticed that I was in favor of your top half, and somewhat in favor of your bottom half...I'm not sure I agree with 6, 7, and 12 on the bottom. 1,4,5,10 I'm inclined to disagree but more kind of subjectively. The rest, I'm in your shoes.

So, I guess I'm stuck in Car #3...but I like your analysis anyway.

If the question on Richard Petty is the location where it is built, I agree.

[doubletrouble_vb]

I think I may be slaloming on a skate board behind car number two. I tend to agree with 1, 5 and 8 in list two...maybe not precisely as stated but close. And I don't think the Speedway is such a bad thing but they should have built it as part of Wideworld of Sports....and as close to I-4 as possible.

Does the speedway get any use during the Daytona Speed Weeks?

What the heck is the Golf Resort?

[DisneyKidds]

Greg, is top/bottom agreement all or nothing? I find your classification by list agreement very interesting. However, while I do agree with the bottom (I am a Car #1 guy), I also agree with some, but not all, of the top. Yet I remain firmly entrenched in Car #1. Maybe that is why I felt I needed the Disney shrink, to deal with those stray, misplaced Car #2 or 3 feelings ;).

[YoHo]

Still Riding the Harley, Still enjoying the Breeze.


The Main Requirment to being in the motorcycle gang is to confuse the Car 3ers and Car 1ers so that both think you might be on their side. :crazy

Things I will agree to.

Eisner does not now have any direction for this company and probably hasn't done much of real worth as Exec since Wells died.

Eisner Worked Reasonably well with Wells, it would appear that this is because Wells controlled the money.

Eisner has no Finacial credentials. This is absolute key to being in the motorcycle gang. No car 1 rider has ever given actual proof the Eisner has the credentials to be in charge of the Finances. Because he doesn't have any credentials and never did.

Pretty much everything else is up for grabs.

I myself am a closet Imagineer/CEO, so I like to talk about what I would do. In some cases that may clash with others (I would have never built the Allstars as they have been built) but to me, most of these discussions boil down to my snese of Athstetics as opposed to yours.

[larworth]

Getting consensus on some of these seems remote, since it is easy to mix matters of taste and principles. Here are some of my initial reactions to Greg’s list.

Stipulate to (modifications):

3) I’d have to put Mulholland Madness at the bottom of my list. Dino-rama! is in the next group from the bottom along with some of the PPier rides. Assume JIYI might also make a few lists.
9A) I give Dinosaur slightly higher marks. I think they made a half decent effort here. It would be on my list of decent rides that could have been much better with a little more effort ($).
9B) Agree that Kali is way too short (see above).
12) A similar lament about RnR. Good attraction that could have been so much better if they hadn’t opted to make it one of the shortest “adult” coaster experiences built in the last 10 years.
13) Poor approach/intent in designing DCA
14) Allowing EPCOT to stagnate

Not stipulate (modifications):

1) Agree with WDW, but seems that DL may be a different case
9) Have to think about this one. Why wasn’t this a stupid mistake? Was it just a mistake, but not a stupid one?
12) Doesn’t need one, but a true "Disney immerisive" experience with one would be great.
13) We must make a huge investment in more monorails

[Bob O]

Gcurling- I agree with all your stipulations and most of the things you wont stipulate too. But WDW needs a Giga or a Hyper coaster badly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They badly need to add some true thrill rides to the park!!! Its almost criminal that us coaster fans dont have a true thrill coaster while other groups have been catered too. We shouldnt be forced to leave wdw to ruide a thrill coaster.
And i also agree the speedway wasnt needed and is a waste.

Airlarry i dont think they need a monorail expansion, but if it was built as part of a B & M thrill coaster i would be ok with the expansion. I could do without the corkscrew but would like a 300" drop and a ride with mutiple inversions!! Really push the envelope!!

[Another Voice]

Stipulation:

The problems with Euro Disney caused senior management at The Walt Disney Company to significantly reduce interest and investments in the parks. This has lead to a general decline in the quantity and quality of new endeavors compared to what had been attempted earlier.

Other events within the corporation (Film, GO.com, ABC, Stores) have caused the company to become more reliant on income generated by the parks. This has lead to a general decline in park operations as measured by hours and previously enjoyed “perks” in an attempt to bolster and/or maintain the profitability of the business unit.

The severity of the decline, the particulars of any specific occurrence, its impact on individual’s experiences, and its importance for the future is the subject of debate.

Since "decline" means the "a change over time", certain individuals with only recent expose to WDW may not notice a marked difference since they did not experience the "before" conditions.

[Bstanley]

Stipulation(s):

All occupants of all the cars love The Magic.

All occupants of all the cars want more of The Magic.

All occupants of all the cars believe that if everybody else (Disney Inc included) would just do what they were told by the occupant there would be more of The Magic for everybody!

[space42]

Originally posted by Another Voice
Stipulation:

The problems with Euro Disney caused senior management at The Walt Disney Company to significantly reduce interest and investments in the parks. This has lead to a general decline in the quantity and quality of new endeavors compared to what had been attempted earlier.

Other events within the corporation (Film, GO.com, ABC, Stores) have caused the company to become more reliant on income generated by the parks. This has lead to a general decline in park operations as measured by hours and previously enjoyed “perks” in an attempt to bolster and/or maintain the profitability of the business unit.

The severity of the decline, the particulars of any specific occurrence, its impact on individual’s experiences, and its importance for the future is the subject of debate.

Since "decline" means the "a change over time", certain individuals with only recent expose to WDW may not notice a marked difference since they did not experience the "before" conditions.

I just had to reply to this and quote it! Shoot, I think this deservs its own post and a sticky at the top of the page!!!

Everyone shoud re-read with Mr. Voice just wrote!

[raidermatt]

Question- If results were to improve in other parts of the business, like broadcasting and films, and park revenue became a smaller percentage of overall revenue, would that loosen up the purse strings for the parks?

Or has Euro Disney made Eisner so gun shy that its just not going to happen on his watch?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Greg!!! You are indeed the voice of reason!! The top half of your list is perfect!!! For those of you who are too lazy to go back a page (and that’s usually me) let me repeat it here: 1) Eisner (on his own) has been bad for Disney
2) Elimination of EE was a very bad guest service decision
3) Dinorama is the most disappointing theme park addition I can remember
4) Pop Century (especially the "words") is an embarrassment
5) WDW theme park hour reductions are stripping away the guest experience
6) The Speedway never should have been built
7) Closing CoP during most of the 100 years celebration was blasphemy
8) Delaying Epcot opening to 10am was a feeble attempt to save a few bucks that caused an opening hour nightmare
9) AK opened with too few attractions, Dinosaur is a waste of good technology and Kali is too short.
1) Disney-MGM Studios rushed to completion and missed the mark causing a haphazard series of additions that have created a park with little cohesion and a horrible layout. (But, the attractions themselves are quite nice.)As far as the second half (one by one, so crank up the quote function!!!):1) Park maintenance is on the declineUp until last year I would have disagreed with you. However, I will admit that it has improved. But what about Disneyland? You west coasters!! How about it?2) Charging for valet parking is a bad thingABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! This penny-pinching move is ridiculous. And as it puts off guests who utilized it in the past, it punishes the CMs who counted on the tips as income. Bad move all the way around!!!!!3) AKL is nothing more than a well decorated HiltonI agree. I can see their point, and it probably could have been better (Polly style), but I really like it anyway. So, agreed!!!4) Imagineers are to blame for DinoramaAgreed!! The buck stops (or never starts in this case) at the top!!!5) Traffic at DD is the biggest problem at WDWI agree!!! There are a whole bunch bigger problems!!!! 6) The All Stars do not fit in at WDWSorry!! And as way of explanation, did I ever mention the caste system of resorts that Ei$ner instituted? Well, in case you missed it…….. ;)7) The Golf Resort is up to the same level of "Disney" as the Poly and ContempGreg!! It was. It was, for what it was!! A failed experiment, perhaps. But give it it’s due, it was as well done as anything else Disney ever did. A vacation resort catering to a non-theme park crowd who were interested in playing golf in a relaxing atmosphere. Perfect!!8) The presence of more "rude" cast membersNah! Sometimes you get a rotten one, but that’s not different from years past. By and large CMs are GREAT!!!!9) The Disney Institute was a stupid mistakeSorry Greg. It was not only a mistake. It was a stupid too. And strangely only one that a guy like Ei$ner could make!!!!10) The old Disney Marketplace was any more "Magical" than DDJust like the Golf Resort I LOVED IT!! Well, maybe ‘loved’ is a little strong. I liked it much, much better than the abomination that currently resides on this piece of property. 11) The character meal "ruined" the Crystal PalaceHey!! Things change!!! (How about that coming from me!!!) Agreed!
12) WDW needs a gigacoasterSorry Bob. AGREED!!!!

I guess the differences is what put me in car #3!!!

Stipulate, shmipulate!! Who’s dumb idea was this!!! Let’s duke it out instead!!! :crazy:

[Captain Crook]

I find it odd to be defending my DD traffic boondoggle on a thread other than that specific thread, but anyhoo...

The reason I said Trafic at DD is the biggest problem facing WDW is that it IS an infrastructure issue. Putting off what should be done cannot be easily rectified and unlike the other 'more important' peeves (hours, EE, valet parking, etc.) this issue cannot be fixed overnight. Moreover it has the potential of spreading and impacting other areas of guests vacations. EE, hours, heck even ticket prices COULD be overturned overnight. This traffic issue cannot...

Now on to other points on Greg's list. Only one actually, but I have to say to you Landbaron, my friend, that your credibility takes a huge blow when you can even acknowledge a thought likening the AKL to a Marriot. You are the supposed purveyor of understading of all things magic and yet you fail to see that the AKL is probably the greatest issue to WDW since Epcot. Walt would be proud. Roy wuld be proud...Lillian would have loved it...Even Flora & Elias would be proud. Raymond would have demanded his own room, Herbert would have ran the place and Ruth would have smiled upon it...:rolleyes: For the love of all that is good and holy man you cannot continue to cast dispersions on everything that has come during the Eisner era. Quickly...Do as I say... Place your hands over your head and chant with me now 'allowa kabollowa singhi navahalla oyee bustisimo fro dansination'...There you should feel better, have a better outlook on all things Disney and have a good nights sleep, to boot.:cool:
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[airlarry!]

I agree to Monsieur AV's stipulation. I am ready to prick my finger if blood is needed instead of a notarized signature.

As for the resorts, my wavering thought is still that the high-end resorts seem to be built with 'magic', but that the hotelineers cheated us vacationers on the low-end resorts. I firmly believe that for the same money, but with a little more imagination and care, the value resorts could have been a lot nicer than what we have gotten and what is being planned.

I don't mean to ruffle feathers here, but the imagineers could have done a much better job than the guys that built the All-stars. They are decorated Motel 6's....but we've covered that point ad naseum before....

[DVC-Landbaron]

[/quote] Now on to other points on Greg's list. Only one actually, but I have to say to you Landbaron, my friend, that your credibility takes a huge blow when you can even acknowledge a thought likening the AKL to a Marriot.[/quote] Peter, my friend, you crack me up!!! I didn’t say I didn’t like it!!! I never likened it to the Marriott!! In fact I said I did like it! The only complaint I’ve ever had with it is that I can see the point that it could have been, should have been… well… ahhh… Different! More exotic!! And that purely subjective!!! Even I recognize that!!!

I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!
I like it!!

OK!!?? Friends again?

[Captain Crook]

You will have a good nights sleep though!;)
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

Oh...And Peter hurt his ankle and moved away...Didn't you hear?:p

[DVC-Landbaron]

YIKES!!!! Sorry Captain!!! But the both of you look so much alike!!!

:earseek:

[Bob O]

I would agree with BStanly and AV!!
Now a monorail pulling 4.5g's, that would be great!!! Add in a launched start and a inversion and we could have a great thrill ride!!

[Bstanley]

Oh man, can you imagine what a 4.5g monorail spiel would sound like?

Por favor mantengase alejado de las puertahhHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

[wdw4us2]

Wow! gcurling finally helped me figure out which car I'm actually in - #3.

I agree with the top portion completely. Like Landbaron, I agree with some of the bottom portion. It's so nice to have everything laid out so simply instead of the arguing that sometimes goes on here!

Thanks! Lisa

[DisneyKidds]

Don't kid yourself Lisa, it is never that easy ;). On with the games :crazy:.