WDW's Biggest Problem

[Captain Crook]

Was at the World last weekend and did some things we don't normally do & in doing so found what I believe to be the most pressing issue for WDW at this time.

Downtown Disney. The traffic & parking situation is abominable. The congestion & gridlock is thicker than the LA smog, forget about fnding parking...

DD, PI, WS has obviously become a very popular and profitable arm of the WDW Resort area, but this bottleneck cannot continue to grow (and the road construction now under way can be no more than a band-aid in the big picture). It (the grid-lock) is contrary to the Disney vacation ideal (Walt would genuinely be pissed) and yet its success warrants its inclusion in long term plans and major funding.

My thoughts: Build a large parking complex near Epcot where a new (relatively small) monorial line can connect with the Epcot line and serve DD. At this point all Parking at DD could become a very expensive and profitable valet type parking (to finance the monorail line?). This would open up the roads again for WDW busses & reasonable trhough traffic.

Any thoughts on why this wouldn't work, shouldn't be done or other ideas to address this very real, very large problem?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Another Voice]

Oh, you mean the plan that Eisner killed for being too expensive?

Remember Captain sir, sucking on gas fumes simply means higher profits for Disney. Since everything from slashed park hours to canceling early entry to carnival games is justified because “it’s a business”, I am shocked that you don’t gleefully accept the minor inconvenience of traffic to your Disney trip.

Perhaps you just don’t feel the magic the way the rest of us do.


(or maybe you’re just starting to see things our way)

[DisneyKidds]

What is the all time record for the number of pages a thread has achieved................??:):);)

Now, now, AV - just because we are in Car#1 doesn't mean we don't see, address, and try and change 'problems' :bounce: .

[Captain Crook]

Oh Voice, you just can't come to agree with anything I say gracefully, can you?...:rolleyes:

I have very often pointed out my problems with Disney and I will reiterate my opinion on Mike...I don't care, I just don't see horns sticking out of his head and I do appreciate many of the things he's given us and I've seen no one suitable offered up as a replacement (being a small piece of a garbage corporation doesn't seem like the best answer).

Now for your post, if you really want to play nice, then do tell of the plan Mike nixed. I don't know of it, but I do know I'll be avoiding DD like the plague in the future...

Lastly let me state that I don't like congestion, pollution & I don't like the reduced hours (have I ever said I did?). I'm not a Disney apologist and to infer so really reminds me why I haven't been posting much lately...:rolleyes:

:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Eeyore1954]

As a fan of DD, I am in agreement with Capt. Crook on the parking situation. Add in the road construction around DD, and getting into/out of the area can be more than a "challenge." My DW and I were there in May and on a rainy Sunday morning we had a difficult time finding a parking space -- that was after negotiating our way through the road construction and blocked entrances.

I agree that it is time for Disney to do something about the lack of parking & access to DD. As for a new parking lot, if you (Eisner) build it, they will come! (With apologies to Field of Dreams!)

[All Aboard]

We really don't ever go to Downtown Disney. We go to WDW to get things we can't get at home. We have a Rain Forest Cafe, a Bongos, Virgin Mega Stores and plenty of McDonalds down here in Miami.

Now I'll do what will inevitably happen on this thread anyhow...

WDW's biggest problem (to me) is chipping away at the operating hours. My biggest gripe has been the removal of EE (which is cutting hours), but the general deterioration of hours is most concerning to me.

As most of you know, we go to WDW all throughout the year. But, our "big" trip each year is the third week of January when we stay 8 nights. I don't have info from our 1999 trip, but I do from the last three. Many point back to the mid-1990's as the beginning of the erosion of hours. More recently they've had an impact on us.

Here's a comparison of MK hours for that week we travel each year:

Fri/Sat Close-Weeknite Close-Number Nite Parades-Number Fireworks-EE?.

2000-10pm-8pm-3-7-Yes
2001- 9pm-7pm-2-7-Yes
2002-7:30pm-6:30pm-2-2-No

I sure hope this trend does not continue.

[raidermatt]

Captain- I agree, there is a certain amount of stereotyping that is heaped on us Car #1'ers. It seems that no matter what we say, we are classified as Disney apologists with our heads in the clouds. It has lead me to bow out of a few threads...

To be fair, though, the 3's sometimes get s'typed as well...

As for your original point, I can't really comment, as we don't use a car in WDW. While I don't particularly love riding busses in WDW, it beats renting a car and going through the types of issues you describe.

You are definitely on the right track with what I'd LIKE to see, namely an overall expansion of Monorail and boat routes. Even if one takes a cynical view of management's motiviations, it would still make sense to make it as easy as possible to get to DD and buy plush.;)

[YoHo]

I've seen 20 plus page threads.

Personally, I can't imagine Driving to DTD anyway. but I'm on the young side for this group and may party a bit harder ;)

[Captain Crook]

Greg, I agree that DD isn't really important to me personally, but in the big picture of the WDW Resort, DD has become a boondoggle, getting very close to being unfixable in its present state (think daily commute on us 1).

Knowing that big money must be being made here it seems that Disney has to address this problem post haste to keep the Resort experience up to snuff by alleviating traffic snafus and heading off what is bound to be an increase in negatve feelings about DD & Disney transportation.

I know it is more popular to talk about the parks and the things we all personally like best, but DD must be attracting a lot of people (and generating a lot of plush sales - thanks Matt) to create this kind of traffic. It seems that this must be put to the top of the 'fix it' list.

I was wondering if there was another vacant area with a relativey straight shot to DD that could be used for 'shuttles' (like the parks use) that wouldn't be more than a mile or so away. My ability to recall the Resort geography is failing me though...I know others have strongly eschewed the parking garage concept (as employed by US) but if built proplerly (out of sight of the traditional Disney area) with complete ease of access, would this not be a strong & efficient idea?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Galahad]

Will the road work they are doing at DTD alleviate the problems, Captain, or are they larger than that?

BTW, we were at MK on Sunday and attendance was disturbingly light. Meeting all of the inlaws to the world this week for a rerunion. Should get some interesting opinions by 17 people that have never been there before......

[Captain Crook]

Galahad, the road work will undoubtedly add some flexability (extra lanes, turn lanes) but sitll if the place gets any more popular the problems will just magnify. I mean the biggest problem is that there is just not enough parking spaces or access roads. Add to this the fact that Disney busses must run wth priority movement whenever possible & that many, many guests use the adjacent road for getting to the Parks from the DD hotels and Lake Buena Vista, that I just can't see a solution to the current operation.
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Bstanley]

A telling point for me about DD was during last November's visit. The entire week - both at Universal and at WDW - the parks were virtually deserted, hotels were running half full, etc.

BUT

DD was very busy every time we went. In fact the only real line we had to wait in the entire trip was to pay for our purchases at the Disney store.

Traffic in and out was busy, and the parking lots were practically full. I remember thinking that this place must be a genuine Zoo when it's busy...

[Another Voice]

Wow, I go away for a few minutes and suddenly this thing explodes.

I just find it interesting that the cancellation of the transportation expansion was a strictly business decision. Simple cost vs. benefits, return on capital, let’s find cheaper solutions kind of call. Disney is a business, so we’re often told, and they have every right to make a profit. Gotta please Wall Street or else, you know?

That’s the exact same answer that gets tossed around when people have problems with the hours that they pay for are slashed, when attractions that they pay to see are closed, when prices go up with additional benefit, and all the other “problems” that routinely are dismissed because “I didn’t use Early Entry so who cares”.

I find it amusing that the Captain announces that waiting at a traffic light is a PROBLEM when the guest who just paid $50 to enjoy less of the Magic Kingdom is dismissed as nothing but WHINING.

Plans to expand the Epcot beam down to the Village/Hotel Plaza were on the books starting 1981. The new management found other uses for the money. Busses were cheaper and more flexible. Roads can be expanded faster. The needs and desires of the guests were subordinated to the economics. So now you sit in traffic.

Isn’t that the exact same cause and effect argument we’ve been having these many months? Both transportation and operation issues all go back to the same source.

[Figmentrocks]

A few quick observations...

"Gotta please Wall Street or else, you know?"

AV, that continues to be the most absurd notion in business, as you knoq. My father works for a (nameless :)) company and is high-up in their corporate ladder, so I always like to hear about the warped and sick world of big business. Everytime this nameless company does what Wall Street wants, they still complain. The same goes for Disney. Every time Disney tries to appease these out-of-touch, egomaniacs who work on the exchange, all that Disney gets out of it is them complaining about something else with the company. It's a real shame, as business decisions are more than ever based upon what a bunch of out-of-touch, mostly arrogant people, who for practical purposes, engage in a game of legalized gambling for a living.

After the cost cuts, quality declines, and job cuts, it's nice to see that it puts Disney basically a bit under twenty-two dollars a share.


As for the issue with the traffic, it's a real mess down there at DD, the Captain is certainly correct. Well, when you have the new Hasbro toy store taking a chunk out of the parking lot, that adds a lot to the problem.

Hey, AV, I thought that Disney is into Environmentality? Buses don't seem to fit with that plan... Oh, they only care about the numbers. How the naive forget. ;) Businesses used to care about profit and quality, now they only care about the kill.

[Captain Crook]

I find it amusing that the Captain announces that waiting at a traffic light is a problem when the guest who just paid $50 bucks to enjoy less of the Magic Kingdom is simply dismissed as nothing but WHINING.
Wow...I said all that? Kinda weird because I'm none to pleased with the hour situation myself...But if I said it then I said it...:confused:

As to the DD traffic, whats your beef Voice? Can't we discuss specific issues around here without always retreating to the same ole same ole? I've actually seen very little of DD traffic discussed and thought it'd be an interesting topic & looked forward to reading responses...

Lastly, for those of you who do care, it isn't just a single traffic light thats problematic it's the area from the first light at Disney Westside all the way to Lake Buena Vista (probably 2 miles all lined with parking lots that never have any spaces available).
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Bstanley]

INCOMING!!!

[Another Voice]

Again, it just struck me as amusing that “WDW’s Biggest Problem” is traffic in a shopping mall’s parking lot. After all the long and numerous posts about hours, closed attractions, and general cutbacks – the approach to this topic just seemed to be both self centered and overly naïve. Sorry Captain, but how could you of all people think that The Company is going to drop really big bucks on a “nice to have” transportation system when butter shaped like Mickey Mouse is a cost savings?

Talking about solutions, yes believe it or not there really is a very thick Master Plan for the entire property. It lays out all the locations for potential resorts, parks, recreation, backstage and support areas. It helps the company plan out things like sewers and roads – and monorails. Planning is a wonderful thing, even way back in the 1970s.

No one wants a history lesson, but transportation has always been a concern at WDW and the monorail system had always been intended to be a major component of it. The concept of WDW Transport was to allow the guests to park their cars and use WDW transport exclusively during their stay.

That goal has changed because the property has grown faster than its infrastructure. The transportation system now is geared to move WDW guests between their resorts & the parks during the day and between the resorts & Downtown at night. Day guests have been locked out of the system except for park hopping busses.

There are more people moving by car now, but the old road network plan has been scrapped for expense as well. The original Master Plan called for highways without intersections or traffic lights. Look at all the elaborate ramps and flyovers at Epcot. But those cost money and were scrapped. Instead of a road like World Drive for the property’s “backbone”, Buena Vista Drive became the “main road” for the entire southern part of the property. No flyovers, no connections, just a long string of stop lights.

A couple years ago there was a plan to solve all of this, very much along the lines of the Captain’s plan. WDW wanted it, Attractions wanted it – but Corporate had other plans for the money. Guests sitting in cars are not a big concern. And if Mr. Scoop would care to plot the growth of the park’s profit margin over the last several years we can all see that it’s not a case that we’re paying the same for more (it’s very much the opposite).

Ultimately if you long for a monorail to whisk to Pleasure Island, turn on your television and enjoy ABC Family instead.

[airlarry!]

Woah, woah, woah. Good Captain, let me be the first to extend an olive branch to you. I sense a disquieting metaphorphisis, almost as if Car Three is stretching...

You are correct to point out the problems with DD. In fact, we had a similar topic here way back about the change from the Village to DD, and I don't think we ever finished nor could we have seen the incredible growth in traffic.

I will say that on my last trip in 2001, we were just killed during Mardi Gras going around that area.

M. AV has a beautiful point here. Even though it was not the Capt who suggested it, some have suggested that changes made on the campus are 'business decisions' and do not affect them personally, so it is not a lessening in the magic. This is a good lesson and an excellent illustration by the Good Captain that yes, Magic is subjective, but if everyone of us has a strong disagreement with a policy that has been incorporated or a 'business decision' that has been made, maybe our collective loss isn't so subjective at all.

Maybe it is an objective sign that the facade is crumbling a bit.

And as to s-typing? Mon Capitaine, you are displeased but it won't stop you from making a return visit, or planning your next trip with anticipation, nor reading (and posting) on these boards with fervor (I hope). This is what it means to be a true Car 3'er. One who fears that while it is still fun to go to WDW now, perhaps, just perhaps, the changes you have seen are going to take a big effect down the road.

To be a Car 3'er is not to be a Chicken Little, crying that the sky is falling. I believe the cry is that "I am afraid the sky will fall if...." and you fill in the blanks with "DD is a gridlock" or "they don't fix the hole in Fantasyland" or "the dragon logo in AK is misleading" or "park hours continue to be cannibalized."

Back to your dilemma. What would Walt do if he was cryogenically unfrozen today? He would click his tongue and dust off the plans for the monorail extension. Build a TTC that connects all four parks (Epcot area sounds nice) Tie it to the DD -- thereby getting resort guests one bus ride and then a sweet monorail ride over to big spending areas...and safe passage back to their hotels after it is all over. And tell his shareholders that the $$ it takes to do this will be recouped with full hotels, four (or more) full parks, more spending per capita by guests who can save money on rental cars and spend them on plush and Kungalooshes instead, and get that repeat business back on track.

[space42]

darn.. things seem to be going all crazy latey..

And you know, actually sitting at a red light in congested traffic is WORSE for me than having to leave a park at 7pm instead of 9pm.

nono.. you have to leave at 9pm instead of 12 or 1am.. but you can come back in and ride a few rides for $12 if you want..

[Captain Crook]

My main point was that traffic & congestion is far worse than I had imagined. Again, we don't do DD often, but the grid-lock is very shortly going to start affecting other areas, namely the bus transportation which will begin impacting (further) the quality or experience of the valued Resort guest.

So while Corporate may have dropped the ball (big time) on this it is time for them to reconsider before more damage is done. This situaton will only get worse and before long you'll get a decline in Resort gest visits (wo go to Cirque, DQuest, dinner & buy the plush stuff).

Lastly, while this may not seem as notewothy as reduced hours, elimination of EE or the prolifertion of cheap Park attractions, it seem to me that the infrastructure must be properly maintained in order to service any of theother goals the Company may have. If, as you say, AV, the Corporate Brass nixed a plan that would have properly progressed the infrastucture of transportation, then I believe this ranks up there with any of the very serious Park issues we discuss here on the DIS.

I hope I didn't sound selfish or self-serving.:D

:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

I hope I didn't sound selfish or self-serving.No!! Not at all! It sounds like you’re changing cars though!! ;)

[airlarry!]

I'm being serious here, no faceitiousness.

I don't see your comments, Mon Capitaine, has selfish or self-serving. Why would you be when you are only asking for that which you have been accustomed to...the level of service that WDW is known for and is what made me and others fall in love with the place.

My first trip in the seventies was one where my first memory is not of parking in a huge parking lot across an interstate and crossing a bridge to Six Flags....it is where we parked in a parking spot named after a Disney character, and took this tram over to a ferry station. We grabbed this ferry and took the cooolest five minute ride and looked at these magnificent hotels like the Polynesian and the Contemporary (exotic and futuristic, just like the lands behind them in the MK). No traffic lights, no gridlock (except in the parking lot).

Idyllic? Yes. Unrealistic?

NO. I guess the only time I get upset is when I read comments like yours and remember that the Power Rangers took our monorail away ;) ;) ;) ;)

Don't let anyone fool you...the real optimists are the ones that believe there is/was enough money and enough talent to get the expansion done, build AK like the MK or Epcot, give us hotels that whisk away from the mundane (at varying price levels according to transportation and convenience), give us transportation that consists of more than just white and purple busses...oh the list goes on...

[OnWithTheShow]

As I find myself sitting at work across the street from downtown disney my magic eight ball tells me that you may soon see a wall appear around the place and admission be charged. The road construction should be done at the end of July and should alleviate the traffic but not the parking problems.

[Captain Crook]

Changng cars? Goodness no. We in Car #1 have always pointed out our concerns to you good car 2 & 3ers, but I still don't see diminished magic the Parks, which is my main focus.

But I will give you that my new found concern over the apparant lack of premptive action in the area of transportation infrastructure and Resort guest facilitation leads me to vigorously scratch my... head. What do my other Car 1 (the stretch Lincoln Navigator) riders think?

Mr. Duck has taken over the driving dutes, the Pirate is pouring the drinks and tonite we have Jennifer Love Hewitt serving the snacks...All seems good in the stretch...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

But I will give you that my new found concern over the apparent lack of premptive action in the area of transportation infrastructure and Resort guest facilitation leads me to vigorously scratch my... head.… And wonder if this is just another indication of how diametrically opposed "Walt’s Disney" is from "Ei$ner’s Disney®"!!

That's really the only difference between cars, you know. All the cars feel the exact same amount of magic (give or take a few grains of pixie dust). We're ALL Disney nuts!!!!! So the only difference is the way we view a very legitimate concern such as the one you brought up. I think it is very telling and is only symptomatic of the deeper problem of philosophy. You think it's nothing but a dumb mistake.

[airlarry!]

Dang it, Baron, I've been trying to verbalize this for weeks, and you hit it in one neat sentence. Bravo!

We're ALL Disney nuts!!!!! So the only difference is the way we view a very legitimate concern such as the one you brought up. I think it is very telling and is only symptomatic of the deeper problem of philosophy. You think it's nothing but a dumb mistake.

[Captain Crook]

...you think it was a dumb mistake.
Well, yes I do...But please Landbaron give me some credit. You know me well enough to realize that even I wouldn't consider such an omission (as AV brings to the table) as just a mistake. Such a decision, particulrily with no alternative time frame or adjustment to the master plan would be a very serious breach of judgement.

For all the things I think about Disney, for all of the decisions they make that I can understand (that you can't) there are still certain things that make WDW what it is and being a step above the rest has always been one of them. If decisions like these go uncorrected as the situation worsens, my aliegence to Disney will not remain unchanged.

Certainly I see things from the selfish, AP, frequent visitor POV (that AV was alluding to) but WDW must continue to be that bastion of unreality in order for me to remain loyal. So while Dino-Rama doesn't ruffle my feathers, a Disney traffic jam does...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well, yes I do...But please Landbaron give me some credit. Peter!! This is the LandBaron you’re talking to. No need to be overly defensive (YES YOU ARE!!;)) I give you a lot of credit!


You know me well enough to realize that even I wouldn't consider such an omission (as AV brings to the table) as just a mistake. Such a decision, particularly with no alternative time frame or adjustment to the master plan would be a very serious breach of judgment.On this we can wholeheartedly agree. So the next question, in my mind at least, is why? Why did such a thing occur? I mean, is it a simple (or even serious) mistake, or is it indicative of their current thinking?

NOW HEAR ME CLEARLY CAR #1 PEOPLE!!!

Leave all the magic, pixie dust and unique Disney experiences right where they are. In fact, lets even totally agree (if for argument’s sake alone) that we all, #3 and #1 people alike, ‘feel’ the exact same boyish (girlish) glee when we visit Disney (that’s a stipulation, isn’t it Chad?)!! I think Peter, Greg and even Scoop will testify that I do!!!

And let’s further stipulate that we all feel pretty much the same way as Peter does about the transportation debacle that is currently plaguing WDW. And also the feelings are the same for Dino-rama and pretty close to the same for DCA (especially vs. DisneySeas). I might even say that we can all agree about EE and shorter hours in general, even if it doesn’t directly affect us. And lastly, I don’t think I’ll receive much static from the Car #1 folks if I bring up Pre$$ler’s name.

OK. Stipulations are over with. Time to move on.

So, when we all, #3 and #1 riders, consider these matters, what conclusions do we come away with? That they are merely anomalies? One-time events? Nothing to concern our pretty little heads over?

I think they are tips of the icebergs. They are simply tangible indications that these people in charge don’t have a clue as to what they are doing!!!! And that makes me think that perhaps, with these people in charge, the future may not be very bright. Now remember!!! That doesn’t, for one single solitary moment, change any of the ‘magic’ I currently feel!!!

I’m I getting any clearer?

[space42]

We're ALL Disney nuts!!!!! So the only difference is the way we view a very legitimate concern such as the one you brought up. I think it is very telling and is only symptomatic of the deeper problem of philosophy. You think it's nothing but a dumb mistake.

Quote of the week!!!

Barron, my good friend, you've done it. Sumed up a few years of debating in one statement!

good, now we don't have to have 20 page threads on this stuff anymore and get back to rumors.. oh, who am I kidding

:)

[PKS44]

"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

I believe Yogi Berra said it...as long as DD is crowded why would the shortsighted management think there is a problem?

Paul

[DVC-Landbaron]

S C O O P ! ! !

You have got to be kidding!! You actually agree with that statement!! I tried to make it so outragous that no one could agree.


(slowly shaking his head) My, oh my. We're farther apart than I thought!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

You mean before someone drops a house on me!?!?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Witch statement?Obviously missed by the Scoop!!. Check out the spelling. Witch as opposed to 'which'. A lame attempt at humor for the 'old' DVC!! :crazy: (sorry)




But it turns out the joke was on me!!! I mistakenly thought you posted two in a row!! But when I looked back it turned out to be space42!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Man, am I a moron!!! How can I possibly be right about anything!!!! :confused: :confused: :jester: :wave: :wave:

[Another Voice]

Speaking of rumors, I see that that the good Mr. Show has dropped the Entrance Fee rumor that’s been riling around for a while. The terror of every car rental agency, taxi cab and non-Meers shuttle bus. I always thought there would be enough political pressure on Disney to stop this, but dollars always speak louder than the screams of other businesses.

It appears we now have the most DISNEY® solution to Captain’s traffic problem. Doesn’t cost anything expect for a few new toll booths and generates a very impressive profit.

Let the rationalizations begin!

I don't know where Scoop's Discovery Cove comments fit in here. But Stitch is the blue one, not Lilo. But since you seem to be saying that no one is going to be paying money for a monorail ticket, you must then WANT the busses, the roads and the traffic.

The sad thing is that Disney could have spent one fifth of the dollars dropped on Fox Family and connected every reosrt and every park with a next-generation monorail. And not had to charge the guests a dime.

[DVC-Landbaron]

How about my definition of stipulation!!!!??? ;)

[PKS44]

I don't know how much DD depends on non-resort guest traffic, but a simple and typically Disney type solution would seem to be take away all of the free parking at DD and WDW resorts, too, except for resort guests. Charge for people to park at the mall- I know in Stamford,CT that is done without harming the traffic at the mall.

Paul

[airlarry!]

Staying with the transportation theme... ;)

I'll take Scoop up on his challenge/query:

Quack one time here or in Baron's other thread if you think M. Scoop is correct, that the monorail has lost its 'magic' because...It was a big deal in 1972 and even 1982, but now even the airport has one.

However, if you think it is okay for a monorail to run through a Polynesian or African or Beach themed resort (or any other high-end Disney resort--discounting the fact that AV predicted a monorail in every pot for 1/5 of the Power Ranger money), please say "Aye, Aye, Captain."

Source: Monsieur Scoop said, Would it be considered a positive for the monorail to go to all resorts? I'm not sure I want a monorail going through an African lodge or through an old-fashioned Boardwalk.

[Planogirl]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

my magic eight ball tells me that you may soon see a wall appear around the place and admission be charged

And this quote only started the hints that are running throughout this thread. This started as an interesting discussion about traffic at one of MY favorite theme parks ;) but something else has reared its ugly head.

Entrance fees? To shopping and restaurants? To the Rainforest Cafe? Huh? :confused:

As far as traffic and parking problems goes, WDW desperately needs some kind of parking garage in the area kind of like (dare I say it?) Universal has at City Walk. And yes, I would gladly pay a REASONABLE fee to park.

[raidermatt]

Quack one time here or in Baron's other thread if you think M. Scoop is correct, that the monorail has lost its 'magic'

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! It hasn't.

I understand the point about not wanting it to run through an African lodge, or even an "animal kingdom". However, it can certainly run unobtrusively NEAR these places (walking distance).

I would also add that boats are also a very pleasant alternative to busses, and they could fit VERY nicely at AK and AKL. They already do at BW. You just can't take one directly to AK or MK (though you can take a boat to Epcot, walk to the monorail and get to MK that way).

Side note- I'd also be interested in any other types of mass transportation that could be used. Maybe there's something out there that could be the "Monorail for the next generation"?

[raidermatt]

Admission to DD? In addition to the admission to PI?

Ugh.

The main thing that got us to DD more than we would have otherwise was the 15% American Express discount at the Disney stores there. If they start charging us to get in, it just makes it less likely we'll go. (another reason why I am interested in the specifics of the new "Disney rewards Visa", and the likely ending of the AMEX partnership).

I suppose one pricing option would be to include it with all Hoppers/APs etc. without raising those prices, therefore only really affecting day visitors and locals. But would that be a good idea?

[barreloflaughs]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Admission to DD? In addition to the admission to PI?

Ugh.


Double ugh....not that it would put any additional burden on my wallet.

This area of WDW was, at one time, quite charming and relaxing....nowadays its about as charming as my local shopping mall and forget about relaxation.

Go ahead and let 'em charge admission. I still won't go there!:)

carl
barrel of laughs

There's one born every minute....several actually.

[Figmentrocks]

" Charge for people to park at the mall- I know in Stamford,CT that is done without harming the traffic at the mall."

Stamford is also a very well to do community and charging for parking isn't much of an issue for most people there.

At The Pointe in Orlando, the fact that they charge for parking (exceptions of validation from going to the Muvico Theater and dinner at a sit-down restaurant & X/S), and it kills a lot of their local business. It never became the busy place that it was envisioned to be and one can assume that the parking charge most certainly has an impact. Universal went to free parking after 6 PM to get more locals, and quite simply, most nights, especially the weekend, are made up of local teens, mostly on the West Side. Start charging for parking, the loss of business will far surpass the revenue of parking. There are too many choices in Orlando, so the local shopper will take his or her business elsewhere.

Personally, I find it to be appalling to be charged for parking when it pertains to shopping. So, I'm supposed to pay to then spend money in a store, that's absurd. In a high density, extremely highly valued land in particular cities, it's understandable. Not on a self-owned, nearly 50 square mile property with endless parcels of land.

[hopemax]

Gosh, go away for one day, and look what breaks loose. Senseless rambles...

I spent the day in Seattle, rode the monorail. The monorail expansion talks seem to be progressing. $1.4 Billion for a 14 mile expansion (so the next time I here someone say $1 million per mile is too expensive, I'm going to smack someone). A couple years ago voters passed an initiative to drop auto registration fees to $30, to pay for the monorail expansion King County would just bring the old fee scale back.

But in general, Seattle and Washington seem to have adopted the same transporation plan as WDW. "It's too expensive to do anything but if we ignore it, it will go away."

[Another Voice]

I believe the rumors are not talking about a fee to enter Downtown Disney.

Instead the “parking fee” would be charged at the boundaries of the property and collected as you enter irregardless of your destination. Additional fees may or may not apply to specific theme parks, other gates or the resorts. So going to shopping at Downtown, swimming at Blizzard Beach or going to lunch at the Yacht Club will all cost "for parking".

Second issue – I think that a monorail “themes in” as well to the Animal Kingdom Lodge just as well as diesel belching busses do. There has to be a practical limit to themeing unless you want to remove all the bathrooms from the Wilderness Lodge and run down five floors to use the outhouse.

Monorails or a rail system are very efficient for the traffic patterns at WDW. All other forms actually aren’t even close. In the beginning, transportation was never considered a “perk” for just the people dumping big bucks. It makes much more sense for the beams to run the high population, high density places like the All Stars and Caribbean Beach.

There was a proposal to boat line throughout the southern portion of the property. The line from the Disney/MGM Studios to Epcot would have been extended through the World Showcase Lagoon to Downtown Disney (there was a side plan for an extension to the Caribbean Beach). Certainly a very scenic trip – but it would have taken an hour and not moved many people. Boats don’t work unless you’re on the Staten Island Ferry.

And Mr. Scoop – Michael Eisner himself took credit for designing the parking mountains at Disneyland. Isn’t that enough to make you feel warm and fuzzy about the concept?

[YoHo]

AV, I find it interesting that you say a Monorail is Ideal for the traffic patterns at Disney I have encountered both here and at other places resistance to the idea that a centralized transportation system would be efficent. Of course I shouldn't be surprised, we are after all a nation in love with the Automobile, it simply isn't in our nature as a nation to enjoy public transportation of that form.



As to a Parking fee to enter the property, I heartily approve of this actually.

I have in the past Voiced my opinion that Centralized parking and mass transit of some type would do wonders for both the general appearnce and feel of the property. forcing people to pay extra for the privelge of moving their car about would work within that. Thus you park at you're resort, or in central parking and let Disney do the rest.

Of course for this to be a good thing is predicated on the notion that Disney creates a Transportation setup that supports it. the Parking fees collected could pay for such a system. The down side is of course that this would not seem to be their goal here.

[space42]

Of course for this to be a good thing is predicated on the notion that Disney creates a Transportation setup that supports it. the Parking fees collected could pay for such a system. The down side is of course that this would not seem to be their goal here.

I'd gladly hand out a parking fee opon entering the property if it was to fund a "state of the art / magic" transportation system.

[raidermatt]

This is easy for me to say, since its possible I will never drive a car into or within WDW, but I'll say it anyway... I'm with Space and YoHo. If the funds (or at least a portion) are earmarked for Magical transportation improvements/enhancements, I say go for it.

Of course, we have a hard enough time getting tax dollars collected for a specific purpose to be used for that purpose...

[Captain Crook]

Back to something Scoop said...(And I may disagree with!) Why not a parking garage Scoop? Is it not possible to build one well for a specific purpose, hidden yet accessable in an otherwise heretofore underutilized area? Is the whole concept so totally distastfull that even an imagineer (would hate to call them garagineer) couldn't do it?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[YoHo]

Something that would avoid ruining Sightlines, but at the same time make you feel like you're in a tomb you'd be an underground Parking garage. Of course, if its at the Edge of the Property and you MUST use Disney Transport to get to the Parks, then the building anticipation level would still be there. Parking would be before the magic as it were.

[airlarry!]

For once, Sir Scoop, I heartily agree with you. That is something you and I can stipulate to....parking garages are not my idea of vacation pick-me-ups.

It would not take a rocket scientist to design and implement a traffic system that would consist of resort guests parking at their resorts and using magical mass trans to move between parks and shopping areas (if it is hard to get from resort to resort that is okay by me because that is not what a vacation is supposed to be) with large parking lots for the day guests at each park. Rip up the parking lot at DD and make that the TTC...

[Another Voice]

It is conventional wisdom that guest hate the separation of the Magic Kingdom from its parking lot, and that resort guests hated being dropped off at the TTC and then transferring to a monorail to get to the MK as well. You will have to do a lot of talking to Disney to convince them at any centralized parking structure that forces day guests to use another form of other transportation is a good idea.

Monorails (or any rail system) work best moving people between fixed, high density locations – say a resort stuffed full of people and an eager theme park. In fact there are few other places better suited since you always know where the people are, you know where they are going and you know when most of them will be traveling. It’s the opposite of the suburbia (where most people say bad things about rail) because that is a situation of low density housing commuting all over the place.

The biggest hold-up at WDW is not the need or the desire to fix the transportation; it’s the willingness to make the investment. The original monorails were put in because “it was the right thing to do” for both guest satisfaction and for WDW’s image. But in the profit-only mindset only a substantial return on investment will result in any progress. From a cynical point of view, you’ve bought the tickets; you’ve paid for the hotel room. It’s not cost Disney any money is you sit in traffic.

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Another Voice
It is conventional wisdom that guest hate the separation of the Magic Kingdom from its parking lot

I found the separation one of the most Magical things about the place when we first went so many years ago ?1974? I loved the separation from the real world, the monorail stations and CM uniforms...I think the problem now is the inefficiency. Do guests hate this because WDW runs fewer monorails now than before, and that they spend more time getting back and forth than they feel necessary? Or was it always so slow getting back and forth... I don't remember...but I do hate the incredibly inconvenient transfer to/from the Epcot line...give me a break! Let me walk across a platform, for crying out loud, not down a long ramp and back up another...

Paul

[DisneyKidds]

Every camel has that straw, and a pay for play entrance fee to get on Disney property with a vehicle may just be mine. I hate to say it, but some on this board have gotten me to think that is actually possible. But before anyone starts getting excited for winning converts (Mr. Baron) or starts patting themselves on the back - I believe a lot of these such rumors are 'chicken little' 'sky is falling' poppycock.

I said 'may' be that straw because if they developed a super duper, next gen transportation system that would get me from VWL to GF for b'fast to MGM for the morning to VWL for a break to BC for dinner at Beaches & Cream to Epcot for the evening and back to VWL as quick or quicker than I can do it with my rental I'd be happier than a pig in ****. But I just don't see that happening.

I guess I will go on record against a parking garage. Too 'real world', and most likely Disney would put larger than life icons of Penzoil, Goodyear, NASCAR and the like on it and call it 'Revved Up Pop Stars of the Indy Infield Parking'. Shoo, shoo, get out of my head Car #3 thoughts. Where is that shrink when I need him?

[Planogirl]

No, for the love of all things good and not evil...somebody stop Planogirl before Plushler reads her post...Delete it Moderators, I implore you to Delete it!!!! Ahhhh.......

OK, calm down ;) and let me remind you of something. This is Disney we're talking about here, the great innovators, the guys that built Epcot. When I said that they needed a parking garage like Universal I didn't mean one that LOOKED exactly like that one but one that FUNCTIONED like it. Whether it's underground or in another hidden part of the World or disguised in some really neat way, they need another place to put cars!

I detest the overcrowded ocean of cars in front of Downtown Disney right now. I dislike the idea of waiting in line to park, paying for parking and waiting for a shuttle of some kind to take me to a shopping and dining venue so that I can spend more money. And then repeating the process in reverse. I think that I've made it clear that I LOVE the Marketplace, I just can't stand the struggle to get there and then leave. I can't stand the thought of it possibly getting even worse. There just has to be a better way. :crazy:

If there's a single imagineer left that Mike and company have overlooked, they ought to be able to come up with an aesthetically pleasing and economical solution that will work. And that is what I'd gladly pay for. :D

[Captain Crook]

Hey, for once Planogirl and I are on the same page...Or at least in the same chapter!;)
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[seashoreCM]

>>> we are after all a nation in love with the Automobile...

Wrong! It is the government that is in love with the Automobile, witness the few alternatives that the government provides.

Currently the surface of the land at Downtown Disney is too crowded for expeditious movement of people (and supplies and freight and merchandise, etc.)

Therefore at Downtown Disney the time has come to provide some form of transportation above or below ground level, it does not have to be a monorail. Runing below ground will be difficult because the water table is high and the tunnel will have to be constantly pumped out. So that leaves some form of elevated transportation facility as the only way to fix the problem.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

Funny that in Los Angeles, well over 50% of the surface of the land is devoted to transportation in some form or other (includes car dealerships and gas station) yet it is still ever so congested over there.

[montessori]

"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
:) :)

I love it!