A bit sadder in CA

[M4travels]

While I expected this I'm still....well, I just don't know what I am.

California's Supreme Court today upheld Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban, but allowed existing same-sex marriages to stand.

We will celebrate our wedding anniversary on July 2 at our favorite place, D'land, but I'm just so sad right now.

M

[jenn&nelsonrego]

While I expected this I'm still....well, I just don't know what I am.

California's Supreme Court today upheld Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban, but allowed existing same-sex marriages to stand.

We will celebrate our wedding anniversary on July 2 at our favorite place, D'land, but I'm just so sad right now.

M

I am sorry. So, so sorry. :sad2:

[zeitzeuge]

While I expected this I'm still....well, I just don't know what I am.

California's Supreme Court today upheld Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban, but allowed existing same-sex marriages to stand.

We will celebrate our wedding anniversary on July 2 at our favorite place, D'land, but I'm just so sad right now.

M

I'm so sorry. I just got back from lunch and saw this on CNN. I guess I'm not surprised that this happened, but still it has to hurt. Don't give up hope.

[bubie2.5]

This is just another bump on the road. The fight continues.

[jenn&nelsonrego]

There are going to be protests across the US from what I have heard. I am trying to make plans to go to the one in Providence tonight, but don't know if I can break my previous plans.

You can text "protest" and your zip code to 27336 to get the location of the protest nearest you.

[DVC~OKW~96]

Ah no. I am so disgusted. :( :(

What good does a protest do now? Seriously? Will it make a difference? What's the next step?

How can some people be married but others can't? I don't get it. I simply do not understand. :(

[rpmdfw]

What good does a protest do now? Seriously? Will it make a difference?

It will let people know that we're still here. That we're still not equal under the law. That "We the people" still doesn't mean ALL the people. That we're not going away, and we're not going to shut up about it and we're not going to let them forget about the issue.

The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease. It's time to squeak. It's time to be the wheel that sticks and slows progress until it's treated properly.

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be an event planned in Orlando. :sad2:

[Cindy F]

.....

[dis75ney]

Wow...

That's all I can say right now...

This is a sad day for our country...how can we claim to be a progressive nation when our government denies its own citizens a basic right to happiness? I don't get it...

But this is just a bump in the road. I heard about today's ruling on Facebook and someone commented that that no civil rights case has even been lost. EVER. There may have been bumps in the road, like today, but we will keep fighting. This is only a battle - the war WILL be won! I have no doubts whatsoever about that...

You all have mine and my family's support... :hug:

[rosiep]

I'm so sorry....it makes me ashamed to be a human being. :sad2:

[Caradana]

Speaking as a straight girl who is a heterosexual minority in the very enlightened, very fun West Village :) ... I see this as fuel for the fight. It takes setbacks like this to amp up the righteousness of the cause, make people continuously mad enough at the discrimination to eventually demand a federal judicial answer. Sotomayor ... one more vote in the right direction. :)

[Chuck S]

Being from CA originally, and seeing how the culture there embraces diversity, I was a little surprised Prop 8 passed in the first place, even though it was a narrow margin.

The court was really between a rock and a hard place on this decision..do they overturn a Proposition that was passed by a majority (even though a very slim majority) of voters and later deal with all those ramifications, or let the Prop stand, knowing that it will simply be placed on the ballot over and over and over again until it is eventually overturned by majority vote. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision. And we all know it will eventually pass.

[DVCajun]

Being from CA originally, and seeing how the culture there embraces diversity, I was a little surprised Prop 8 passed in the first place, even though it was a narrow margin.

The court was really between a rock and a hard place on this decision..do they overturn a Proposition that was passed by a majority (even though a very slim majority) of voters and later deal with all those ramifications, or let the Prop stand, knowing that it will simply be placed on the ballot over and over and over again until it is eventually overturned by majority vote. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision. And we all know it will eventually pass.

(gritting teeth.....)

Since WHEN does civil rights go to the frigging majority of bigots to determine law????? Did we ask the frigging majority whether we could overturn slavery??? (ok, so that went to war, but still, it didn't go to a frigging vote) I am so frustrated .... I am sick and tired of bigots and supposed "christians" making the deciding vote in the laws of our country. It's ironic, isn't it ... our country was founded on the separation of church and state, yet, when push comes to shove, the "right" has fooled the christians in this country into believing that they're entitled to make the laws. What they don't seem able to comprehend is that if THEY are able to impose their religious beliefs upon the majority, then SOMEONE ELSE can someday do the same to them. And they sit in church and lament the Christians in China who don't have the right to purchase a Bible .... the hypocrisy is mind-blowing. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Maybe I'll feel better after a glass of wine. Or two. :dance3:

[Chuck S]

(gritting teeth.....)

Since WHEN does civil rights go to the frigging majority of bigots to determine law????? Did we ask the frigging majority whether we could overturn slavery??? (ok, so that went to war, but still, it didn't go to a frigging vote) I am so frustrated .... I am sick and tired of bigots and supposed "christians" making the deciding vote in the laws of our country. It's ironic, isn't it ... our country was founded on the separation of church and state, yet, when push comes to shove, the "right" has fooled the christians in this country into believing that they're entitled to make the laws. What they don't seem able to comprehend is that if THEY are able to impose their religious beliefs upon the majority, then SOMEONE ELSE can someday do the same to them. And they sit in church and lament the Christians in China who don't have the right to purchase a Bible .... the hypocrisy is mind-blowing. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Maybe I'll feel better after a glass of wine. Or two. :dance3:

But historically it is the Federal courts that have usually been the champions of civil rights, not state courts. I didn't say I agreed with their decision...I said I understand why they ruled that way. Because they know it will eventually be overturned anyway.

[DVC~OKW~96]

Rob, maybe I'm just too disheartened right now, but I can't buck it up and agree with you on this one. :( Another empty protest? Who cares about a bunch of gays that can't marry. Who really cares about that fairly small minority in this country? After all it's the last group that you can legally discriminate against without repercussion. It's the group that can fight and die for their country as long as they lie about who and what they are. It's the group that can contribute to society, hold jobs, and pay taxes but cannot share in the same civil liberties as those people who are allowed to marry and divorce limitless times. I am completely sick of being the "other" the degenerate, the one who deserves to go to hell. Completely.

Nothing planned for Orlando. Nope. Nothing. Apathy rules the day. :(

Ugh. Ignore me. I'm in an absolutely vile mood. :( :headache:

[DVCajun]

But historically it is the Federal courts that have usually been the champions of civil rights, not state courts. I didn't say I agreed with their decision...I said I understand why they ruled that way. Because they know it will eventually be overturned anyway.

I'll drink to that.... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/retrodeco/drunk-smiley-08.gif

[DVCajun]

Rob, maybe I'm just too disheartened right now, but I can't buck it up and agree with you on this one. :( Another empty protest? Who cares about a bunch of gays that can't marry. Who really cares about that fairly small minority in this country? After all it's the last group that you can legally discriminate against without repercussion. It's the group that can fight and die for their country as long as they lie about who and what they are. It's the group that can contribute to society, hold jobs, and pay taxes but cannot share in the same civil liberties as those people who are allowed to marry and divorce limitless times. I am completely sick of being the "other" the degenerate, the one who deserves to go to hell. Completely.

Nothing planned for Orlando. Nope. Nothing. Apathy rules the day. :(

Ugh. Ignore me. I'm in an absolutely vile mood. :( :headache:

I feel your pain, sister. :hug:

[DVC~OKW~96]

Thank you. :hug: I apologize for the rant. I don't apologize for my "feelings" but I am sorry for subjecting you all to my vent. :guilty:

[rpmdfw]

Thank you. :hug: I apologize for the rant. I don't apologize for my "feelings" but I am sorry for subjecting you all to my vent. :guilty:

Hey, if you can't vent to us, who can you vent to? Don't sweat it.

And yeah, sometimes another protest seems like it doesn't accomplish anything. But each time we raise awareness and visibility, someone who hadn't thought about it from our point of view does so. Every time we stand up and say "We're here, we're human beings, we deserve equality" we send a message to glbt youth that they're not alone, and they're okay just the way they are. And finally, every time we engage people in conversation about glbt rights, we show them that the face of our community is made up of people they know. It makes it less frightening, it makes it less scary, it makes it less likely to continue.

Harvey Milk was right. We have to let them see us, get to know us, and then they can't deny us our rights.

So, we have setbacks, and it doesn't seem like what we're doing has any affect, but slowly; bit by bit we're slowly moving mountains. Don't get discouraged. Think of all we've accomplished so far. When Scott and I met six years ago it wasn't possible to have a Big Fat Gay Disney Wedding, it was still criminal for us to participate in "bedroom activities" in many states in our country, and not one single state in the United States allowed gays and lesbians to marry. Now it's FIVE!

Baby steps, but we've come a long way, baby!

Disney asks "What will you celebrate today?" Well, I'll celebrate US!

[Cindy F]

.....

[Dr. M]

California still recognizes domestic partnerships. The people of California just feel that marriage is a religious institution. But they are not against domestic partnerships which gives you the rights that married heterosexuals have:
As of 2007, California affords domestic partnerships most of the same rights and responsibilities as marriages under state law (Cal. Fam. Code §297.5). Among these:

-Making health care decisions for each other in certain circumstances
-Hospital and jail visitation rights that were previously reserved for family members related by blood, adoption or marriage to the sick, injured or incarcerated person.
-Access to family health insurance plans (Cal. Ins. Code §10121.7)
-Spousal insurance policies (auto, life, homeowners etc..), this applies to all forms of insurance through the California Insurance Equality Act (Cal. Ins. Code §381.5)
-Sick care and similar family leave
-Stepparent adoption procedures
-Presumption that both members of the partnership are the parents of a child born into the partnership
-Suing for wrongful death of a domestic partner
-Rights involving wills, intestate succession, conservatorships and trusts
-The same property tax provisions otherwise available only to married couples (Cal. R&T Code §62p)
-Access to some survivor pension benefits
-Supervision of the Superior Court of California over dissolution and nullity proceedings
-The obligation to file state tax returns as a married couple (260k) commencing with the 2007 tax year (Cal R&T Code §18521d)
-The right for either partner to take the other partner's surname after registration
-Community property rights and responsibilities previously only available to married spouses
-The right to request partner support (alimony) upon dissolution of the partnership (divorce)
-The same parental rights and responsibilities granted to and imposed upon spouses in a marriage

[Cindy F]

California still recognizes domestic partnerships. The people of California just feel that marriage is a religious institution. But they are not against domestic partnerships which gives you the rights that married heterosexuals have.....



I am glad that progress has been made and that things are slowly improving but separate is not equal. Segregation is wrong.



Taxes:

Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples.

Benefits:

The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.

Recognition in other states: Even though each state has its own laws around marriage, if someone is married in one state and moves to another, their marriage is legally recognized. For example, Oregon marriage law applies to people 17 and over. In Washington state, the couple must be 18 to wed. However, Washington will recognize the marriage of two 17 year olds from Oregon who move there. This is not the case with Civil Unions. If someone has a Civil Union in Vermont, that union is not recognized in any other state. As a matter of fact, two states, Connecticut and Georgia, have ruled that they do not have to recognize civil unions performed in Vermont, because their states have no such legal category. As gay marriages become legal in other states, this status may change.

[Dr. M]

Thanks for the good info, Cindy. I guess I sometimes have trouble understanding. My perspective may be different from most. I come from a Muslim country where civil rights and equality are viewed in a very different way. Where I'm from, I can be thrown in jail for sharing my Christian faith. There is no true life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness if you are openly Christian. That is what brought me to the US. I feel that sometimes I love this country even more than those born here. If one chooses to be openly gay, that is your civil right and no one will throw you in jail for it. Sure you may be treated differently by individuals, just as I am treated differently because of my culture or race. But your government will not infringe on your freedom of speech, your right to pursue your dreams, be successful, own property, or any number of things within the confines of the law. This will not be how you would be treated in other countries. I have trouble relating to how the inability to get a federal tax break because you are not married or any of the other marriage perks is an infringement on your life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness. Be the best person you can be, Be successful--no one can stop you.

[NHdisneylover]

Rob, maybe I'm just too disheartened right now, but I can't buck it up and agree with you on this one. :( Another empty protest? Who cares about a bunch of gays that can't marry. Who really cares about that fairly small minority in this country? After all it's the last group that you can legally discriminate against without repercussion. It's the group that can fight and die for their country as long as they lie about who and what they are. It's the group that can contribute to society, hold jobs, and pay taxes but cannot share in the same civil liberties as those people who are allowed to marry and divorce limitless times. I am completely sick of being the "other" the degenerate, the one who deserves to go to hell. Completely.

Nothing planned for Orlando. Nope. Nothing. Apathy rules the day. :(

Ugh. Ignore me. I'm in an absolutely vile mood. :( :headache:

:hug:Why would any of us ignore you? You have every right to be in a "vile mood" considering the vile decision that has just been made:sad2: Sometimes you want to just "be" and not have to fight and be visible and move the cause along--it's exhausting. Geez sometimes I reach the point of just being discouraged and I am a straight girls so it really doesn't effect me in anywhere near the capacity it does you.
But when you feel up to it I think Rob is right that staying out there and visible is what will slowly turn the tide (and it is tunring other places, look at Iowa and New Hampshire and hopefully New York is going soon, etc.--weird for California to be the least progressive place in the nation lately:confused3) UNtil you feel up to it though the rest of us can handle it and it is okay for you to just take a break from having to "fight the good fight" and just live for a while.
There is so much more I want to say but I am just not able to really put it into words that convey what I mean. I am just sorry today:sad1:

[DVC~OKW~96]

OK Rob, your words reached out and did their magic one more time. Every time we stand up and show our displeasure at the rulings and votings of ignorant people, we do send a message to our LGBT youth and that is THEY DO MATTER, that THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE.

See? It does take a community, eh?

Dr M. I'm not going to debate with you, because the mood is still vile, but this is not the place or the time to throw the platitudes of domestic partnership or any other type of union OTHER THAN WHAT EVERY OTHER ADULT AMERICAN HAS into the fray.

Coming here with that worn out information demonstrates complete lack of understanding for the Gay community regardless of where you "come from." Try telling a gay person in the military that s/he has freedom of speech. :sad2: Not the time or the place, I'm afraid.

[DVCajun]

OK Rob, your words reached out and did their magic one more time. Every time we stand up and show our displeasure at the rulings and votings of ignorant people, we do send a message to our LGBT youth and that is THEY DO MATTER, that THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE.

See? It does take a community, eh?

Dr M. I'm not going to debate with you, because the mood is still vile, but this is not the place or the time to throw the platitudes of domestic partnership or any other type of union OTHER THAN WHAT EVERY OTHER ADULT AMERICAN HAS into the fray.

Coming here with that worn out information demonstrates complete lack of understanding for the Gay community regardless of where you "come from." Try telling a gay person in the military that s/he has freedom of speech. :sad2: Not the time or the place, I'm afraid.

I agree completely.

I also appreciate Dr. M's attempt to look on the bright side. We all have blessings to be thankful for, but that doesn't mean we don't feel it when we are treated like second-class citizens. Just because there are countries where people have it worse (and the Middle East ranks pretty high on the appalling civil rights scale), doesn't mean that we as Americans aren't being denied *our* country's civil rights, rights that we are entitled to under *our* country's constitution.

Marriage as a religious institution?? I'm all for that!! But don't allow heterosexual couples to "get married" at the courthouse. They should only be allowed domestic partnerships or civil unions too, unless they get married in church. Then they can call themselves "married" in the Biblical sense. But that church-given state of "marriage" shouldn't entitle them to any federal benefits at all because of our CONSTITUTIONAL obligation to keep church separated from state. If it's about the frigging WORD, then by all means, change the way we use the word "marriage," for crying out loud. Who freaking cares what it's called? But when you give heterosexual couples one set of rights and gay couples another, well, that's a whole nuther kettle of fish, my friends. Our civil rights are being stomped on.

[rpmdfw]

But your government will not infringe on your freedom of speech, your right to pursue your dreams, be successful, own property, or any number of things within the confines of the law. This will not be how you would be treated in other countries. I have trouble relating to how the inability to get a federal tax break because you are not married or any of the other marriage perks is an infringement on your life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness. Be the best person you can be, Be successful--no one can stop you.

This is not entirely accurate.

My partner owns our house. Even with a will, if something ever happened to him, his family could contest it and demand that our home and everything in it be turned over to them. All it takes is a judge that is anti-gay (of which there are quite a few in the South) and I would be homeless.

Even if they don't contest the will, because we are not married spouses under the eyes of the law, I would have to pay inheritance taxes on everything. So despite having worked very hard for years, and paid half of the property taxes, half of the utilities, half of the insurance, if something happens to him, in all likelihood I would lose our home because the tax burden would be so great.

So, speaking just for myself, not being married DOES mean that I am at risk of homelessness or worse based on not having equal protection under the law.

A simply marriage certificate would solve this and protect us completely. That is why "civil union" isn't enough.

And this is just one example. There are many others.

Yes, we are MUCH better off in the United States than we would be in other countries. But that doesn't make us equal. Until the promise of the United States Constitution is extended to all U.S. citizens, each and every American is at risk of having their rights voted away like they were in California.

[yasuern]

Wish I could say I am shocked but i'm not:sad1:

I wish I understood why this is an issue but I don't:sad1:

I wish people would just see how wrong this is but they don't:sad1:

I wish that these injustices.......:hug:



Sue

[NHdisneylover]

Thanks for the good info, Cindy. I guess I sometimes have trouble understanding. My perspective may be different from most. I come from a Muslim country where civil rights and equality are viewed in a very different way. Where I'm from, I can be thrown in jail for sharing my Christian faith. There is no true life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness if you are openly Christian. That is what brought me to the US. I feel that sometimes I love this country even more than those born here. If one chooses to be openly gay, that is your civil right and no one will throw you in jail for it. Sure you may be treated differently by individuals, just as I am treated differently because of my culture or race. But your government will not infringe on your freedom of speech, your right to pursue your dreams, be successful, own property, or any number of things within the confines of the law. This will not be how you would be treated in other countries. I have trouble relating to how the inability to get a federal tax break because you are not married or any of the other marriage perks is an infringement on your life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness. Be the best person you can be, Be successful--no one can stop you.

I don't think any of us here wants to go to a country that has severly limited civil rights--such as what you describe. That doesn't mean that our own country (I am refering to the USA--of which I am a citizen though not living there at the moment) doesn't have room to improve, or that saying so means we do not love our country. I love my children dearly. It is because I love them so much that I want them to be the best they can be and I therefore correct their behavoir when I need to. Keeping with the children analogy and looking at your comparisons between freedoms in the USA and freedoms in the Muslim country you are from, I see it more this way:
My kids are pretty good kids but the still screw up once in a while. When they screw up I don't ignore or condone the misbehaviour because they are much better beahved than little Johnny down the street. I would be a terrible parent if I did not see their faults and work to help them overcome them. Especially if those faults were to bully and harrass others.They are MINE, I love them dearly and I hold them to a higher standard than that.

Similarly the USA is MY country, I love it dearly and I hold it to the highest of standards. I believe this country can be great and know what the ideals it was built on are and I expect these ideals to be proven out in law. I am saddened and angered when laws are made HERE in MY country that discriminate against so many people and I will do whatever I can to correct the problem.

[bubie2.5]

California still recognizes domestic partnerships. The people of California just feel that marriage is a religious institution. But they are not against domestic partnerships which gives you the rights that married heterosexuals have

But your government will not infringe on your freedom of speech, your right to pursue your dreams, be successful, own property, or any number of things within the confines of the law.

Oh really? I’m FORCED to live outside my country if I want to be with the woman I love. Getting LEGAL residency for my partner (who’s not an American citizen) has been impossible, and we refuse to live there any other way. I don't see married heterosexual couples having the same problem.

[TuckandStuiesMom]

Heartbreaking. :sad1:
These ignorant ridiculous predjudices remind me of an overgrown patch of blackberry stickers -- it's nasty work but we've just gotta keep chopping.

[NHdisneylover]

Oh really? I’m FORCED to live outside my country if I want to be with the woman I love. Getting LEGAL residency for my partner (who’s not an American citizen) has been impossible, and we refuse to live there any other way. I don't see married heterosexual couples having the same problem.

:hug:WOW how infuriating:headache: Of all the many issues I have known about this one never occurred to me for some reason. I am so sorry this is your situation.

[Cindy F]

I feel that sometimes I love this country even more than those born here. If one chooses to be openly gay, that is your civil right and no one will throw you in jail for it. Sure you may be treated differently by individuals, just as I am treated differently because of my culture or race. But your government will not infringe on your freedom of speech, your right to pursue your dreams, be successful, own property, or any number of things within the confines of the law. This will not be how you would be treated in other countries. I have trouble relating to how the inability to get a federal tax break because you are not married or any of the other marriage perks is an infringement on your life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness. Be the best person you can be, Be successful--no one can stop you.

That is the same type of analogy of "I know your husband cheats on you and is hateful BUT he doesn't beat you so you should be thankful for that and stay with him".

[jenn&nelsonrego]

Thank you. :hug: I apologize for the rant. I don't apologize for my "feelings" but I am sorry for subjecting you all to my vent. :guilty:

I can only speak for me, but you don't have to apologize. It is one thing for me to be pissed off about this, but you... you actually live it. I cannot imagine. :sad2:



Disney asks "What will you celebrate today?" Well, I'll celebrate US!

:thumbsup2
I'll drink to that! :drinking1

[rpmdfw]

I was reading Father Geoff Farrow's blog today, and found this post particularly inspiring.

http://fathergeofffarrow.blogspot.com/2009/05/change-one-person-at-time.html

Just by being who he is and speaking up for equality, he's inspiring people. He's inspiring them in their personal lives and in the larger arena of the fight for equal treatment under the law.

He's lost so much by doing this, as well. He's a hero. If there were more like him, I might not have left the catholic church.