Gay Days 2002

[vapoohbear]

Our FAMILY TRIP got off on the wrong foot, our first day at WDW was at the MK and it was GAY DAYS 2002, "not that there is anything wrong with that", but I did not need to subject my children to 150,000 gays when we were going to the greatest place on Earth. We went back to the hotel after 1.5 hours.

Why does Disney not inform guest of these days?
Who do I complain to and seek a refund for my park hopper pass for that day?
Thanks

[CrzyforPiglet]

I sure hope your are not saying that Disney should discriminate against a group of people and publicize their attendance at their parks. I also hope you are not saying that gay people cannot take family trips to WDW.

Plenty of groups organize trips and conferences at WDW and are under no obligation to tell Disney they are doing so. All they need to do is get rooms invite their group to go and show up so I'm not sure I see how Disney is obligated to say anything to anyone. I personally knew nothing about "Gay Days" until I saw it posted on this board and plenty of people commented how they had been there during that time and didn't think it was different than any other time. Disney does not discriminate against people for any reason (parner preference included) and I highly doubt would refund your park hopper pass.

[AZKathy]

Too bad you did not catch any threads about this before your trip. You could have gone to Epcot that day and MK on Sunday and had no problems. Keep an eye on the boards and you can check next years dates out which will be around that same weekend. Sorry that things did not go as expected, but I doubt you will be able to get any refund.

[epcotfan]

I also agree that you will be unable to get a refund. If you had a park hopper your options were to simply go to another park.

Disney has many different kinds of groups in the parks (from Gay Day to Magic Music Days to the Cheerleading Squads, International Tours, etc...) They do not have to publicize which groups are going to be in the various parks. Each person in the park has just as much right to be there as the next one does.

[scanne]

I agree with the others. I don't think you will get a refund, nor should you. And if you truly think there is nothing wrong with that lifestyle, why should it matter if you're in the park with your family while others are in the park with their significant others? I mean, you could have simply explained, IF your kids asked, that some people have different tastes than others. It's like choosing chocolate over vanilla.

I also agree that if you had a hopper pass, you could have gone to another park. Even your plan had been to do MK that day, you could have taken the monorail to Epcot and done MK the next day.

JMHO.

[kimberwing]

Epcotfan....

Would you let me know when Cheerleader day is so I can avoid it like the plague? I'm too grumpy to deal with that much spunkiness in one place.

;)

[Chuck S]

Didn't you get a note from your resort that explained that due to an expected large crowd at MK that day that the other parks would open an hour earlier for on-site guests? Or did you stay off-site, then perhaps WHERE you stayed should have informed you that a large crowd was expected at MK - plus MK is ALWAYS busy on Saturdays. As others have stated, if you found the crowd at MK objectionable, you could have hopped to another park. I've enountered some awfully rude guests at the parks all times of year, is that Disney's responsibility? No. Nor is it their responsibility to warn guests of large convention groups in the Orlando area.

Really, what would you expect Disney to say "WARNING - A large herd of (insert group) will be at (insert park) on (insert date) - plan accordingly!" There would be such a warning several times every month, kind of silly IMHO.

[crisi]

kimberwing,

The cheerleaders were there the second week of Feb 2002. Thousands of teenage girls.

Now, I'm a pretty tolerant person, but as a feminist, I really can't condone the lifestyle choice cheerleaders make. Here I am trying to set a good example for my daughter, and she's being exposed to thousands of girls wearing makeup, showing midriff, and giggling! My three year old son even noticed and commented on it....fortunately, we've raised him well. He said they were "silly."

[epcotfan]

Actually the cheerleaders were there during the first week of February as well. Most of them were polite and well behaved and I did see plenty of chaperones. The only time I was annoyed was on the 8:30 bus back from Epcot. The bus driver asked them to do a cheer on the bus. It was very loud and a family had to ask them to stop because it was scaring their very young baby (who had just gone to sleep) But they did accordingly.

There are many large groups that come to WDW whether they be from conventions, competitions or social groups, etc...They are no more of a bother than any other large group of people touring the parks.

[tjmw2727]

This is not a "Disney sponsored" event, just a gathering of people who decide to attend the theme park. They also spend a day at other Disney parks as well as Universal and other Orlando attractions.

TJ

[vicb]

I can not comment specifically on Gay Days as I have not been during that time but unless people were engaging in inappropriate public displays (those which would be considered inappropriate displays among heterosexuals as well) then it shouldn't be a problem.

I have been during cheerleader week and did not find it a problem at all. On our airplane home we sat surrounded by a team from Colorado who were very friendly and told us a lot about what they did to get to the competition in Orlando. Lets not bash cheerleaders either.... to each his/her own!

Part of going on vacations is to be exposed to new places and people IMHO!:D

[waltandjulie]

Maybe I'll be black-listed for this, but I absolutely understand vapoohbear's point. A large (did somebody say 150,000) group of people trying to make a social statement would not be what I would hope for in a trip to Disney. When I go to WDW, I don't really care whether other park attendees are "gay" or "straight", but would prefer not to be assailed with this in what is undeniably a "family environment."

On the other hand, I agree with some of the others in that Disney can't really do much to warn people without being branded bigoted, or worse. While I wish that Disney (and others) would have the courage to face this issue head-on, I doubt that the current climate of political correctness will permit it.

One more thought before I lose my steam....

Cheerleaders - welcome.
School bands - welcome.
International tour groups - annoying, but welcome.
KKK, skin heads, gay pride, PETA, anarchists, etc. - no thanks.
KKK

[Eeyore1954]

WaltandJulie: That was an interesting post. I am not sure the group was attempting to make a social statement as much as simply wanting to enjoy what Disney offers to anyone willing to pay the price of a ticket.

Disney is in business to make money. If 150,000 people want to come to WDW for a day, Disney would be stupid to say no.

I think you'd be surprised to learn how many people from the groups you want to keep out of Disney are there every day of the year.

Just four words in closing... tolerance - think about it.

[Chuck S]

Walt & julie, I think you miss the point of most of the other replies - should Disney give a refund when there were other options available - like hopping to another park? I don't think anyone said that they should have been forced to stay at MK or lose their money if they they were uncomfortable, did they? If Disney started refunding tickets, anyone could find SOMETHING at the parks they would find offensive at anytime.

As to groups you consider "Welcome" or not, political correctness has little to do with it - legally in the US we can NOT discriminate against any individual by denying them access if they hold a ticket as long as the park is open to the general public, and not closed for capacity; unless their behavior on-site endangers other guests, or they break laws governing lewd conduct, nudity, or are disruptive to other guests by verbal assault, etc. Remember Disneyland lost a lawsuit almost 20 years ago when DL asked a same sex couple NOT to dance together in the Tomorrowland area (where there was a stage and area for dancing) during normal operating hours. So a gay couple holding hands can not be treated differently than a male/female couple holding hands. It is not Disney's CHOICE whether to allow people into the park, it is law. As far as "WARNING" guests, they'd have to warn them about EVERY group (even main-stream religious groups) that could visit the park at any time, or leave themselves open for a discimination lawsuit - it is not practical.

[waltandjulie]

I don't think I missed the point at all..and I think it has everything to do with poitical correctness. To say that it is not a social statement is silly. It is an semi-organized gathering of people based on a political/social classification of those people.

I don't doubt that Disney would face a lawsuit if they made any attempt to notify their bread-and-butter customers that an event such as Gay Days was occurring. I just think that it is sad that this could/would happen.

Although I personally don't care what anybody does or doesn't do inside or outside the parks, I think its foolish to pretend that the atmosphere of a park geared toward families with small children will not be affected by a 150,000 people who chose to attend the park on a particular day simply because of their sexual orientation. I guess, though, that we'll just have to continue to pretend that this doesn't make anybody feel uncomfortable.

[Eeyore1954]

WaltandJulie: Disney DOES notify guests in the resorts of Gay Day. Notices are slipped under the doors in each room, so guests know in advance that MK is going to be quite crowded that day. So everyone has notice of this and it's their own choice if they choose to go to MK that day.

If they go and don't like what they see or are uncomfortable, they are free to visit any of the other parks, water parks, golf courses, minature golf, resorts, DTD, etc. After all, it is a free world and it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

What makes you think that WDW is geared only toward families with small children? My DW and I have no children, so are we now part of the excluded groups? What about people with teenage children?

Disney is for everyone regardless of their race, color, creed, etc. What I think is silly is people getting bent out of shape over 1 day. Good golly, aren't 364 other days enough? And don't you think that there are a good number of gays, PETA supporters, KKK members/supporters, etc. at the parks EVERY DAY of the year?

It seems to me your position redefines the term intolerance. :(

[waltandjulie]

I knew the name-calling would begin eventually....

Again, I don't care what their social politics are....I just don't want to be blasted with it on my vacation.

Furthermore, if it were me, I would stay in the park because that lifestyle choice does not bother me. I, however, can understand that it may bother somebody else, and would prefer that we not crucify those who it does bother.

Tolerance for differing views works two ways.

[CrzyforPiglet]

We live in a free country where people are allowed to hold different beliefs and live different lifestyles. If someone doesn't like it and can't stand to be near it, then they should take appropriate steps to avoid it. Disney world was meant to be for all families which come in different shapes and sizes. Every person on this planet is part of someones family whether their parents are different races, genders, etc. and if they want to go on vacation at Disney it is their choice and their vacation as well.

That is where I don't understand the original poster's point. My interpretation of the tone of their message was that they felt it was Disney's responsibility to discriminate against large groups of homosexuals by notifying people they were there. Also to capitalize FAMILY TRIP tells me that they think homosexuals aren't part of families. If he or anyone else does not like a large group of people at the park, they should leave - plain and simple. I also think he was exaggerating his point b/c I don't think (but I don't know for sure) that MK holds 150,000 people and even if it did that all of them were participating in Gay Days. According to the Unofficial Guide the average no. of visitors to the ENTIRE WDW in June per day is only 60,000!

JMHO

[Chuck S]

W & J - ypu still haven't expressed an opinion on the refund issue, or the fact that WDW does place a flyer in the rooms of on-site guests. There are always complaints that Disney doesn't do enough to "warn" people. What, realistically, do you want or expect them to do?

[waltandjulie]

Opinion time...

I would not expect Disney to give a refund to me or anybody else.

I would hope tha Disney would notify guests of any event that may have an impact on the enjoyment of the guests...this would include a notice of the present event.

Regarding what else Disney could do, I would hope that Disney would hold all attendees to the same standards of decorum, and would not be hesitant to enforce its policies (which I feel add to the atmosphere) simply because an individual or group is part of a politically protected group.

I would hope that all would agree with this approach

[Chuck S]

W & J - Disney DOES hold all guests to certain standards of decorum, I've seen CMs enforce dress policies - guys are asked to put their shirts on, if they'd removed them - this happens EVERYDAY in the summer heat, not just GayDay.

Disney DOES notify guests that the MK is expecting a large crowd, and that it may affect their enjoyment of the MK. I think it is very accommodating of WDW to open the other parks an hour early for the enjoyment of on-site guests.

So, I think Disney probably is meeting all of your complaints already.

[campingcorgi]

We were staying at FW during this time, and we did NOT get a letter telling us that the other parks were opening early or that large crowds were to be expected at MK. We were quite aware of the event, but were not informed by Disney. We have gotten the letter in years past, though.

[lisaost]

These posts really get under my skin. I wish people would just go to the parks on Gay Days and see people with their partners, and children, and families having a good time and maybe we could all get a little closer to accepting people the way they are. Yet some still feel the need to be sheltered from or to avoid "THEM". It makes me so sad. "THEY" are our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, friends, neighbors, teachers - in short, part of our society every day. We share our days with people from all walks of life every day and usually we hardly ever notice our differences. As for people making social statements, last I checked the most American of all freedoms is freedom of speech. If someone wants to wear a gay pride tee shirt to the park, they exercise the same right as the person who wears a Nascar tee shirt. I don't think it's name calling to say someone is intollerant if they want to single out homosexuals to be avoided. That's the definition of intollerance. I'm sorry if it offends - please I am not 'calling names' - I am just trying to express how I feel because like I said, these posts really sadden me. If someone wants to avoid gay days, then it's their right to do so. But maybe you should keep it to yourself because based on these posts, I'd say it's not gays that are to be avoided....it's the intollerant people I don't want my children exposed to.

[Eeyore1954]

Lisaost: Thank you for your post.

Walt&Julie: I am confused :confused: as to where the "name-calling" started, but then that's one of the dangers of posting on message boards. Since I must have offended you with my previous post, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intent, although it obviously came across that way. I am sorry for that.

One last thought:

I remember watching the clip of Walt Disney opening Disneyland many times. What sticks in my mind are his words that everyone is welcome to the happiest place on earth. I don't recall him excluding any group based on any criteria, including the number of people from that group that choose to come on any particular day.

I know I could learn some lessons from Walt about tolerance.

[waltandjulie]

Niether Vapoohbear nor I indicated that anybody should be refused admittance to any park. This was read into our posts to make our positions seem unreasonable....

What I did say, and continue to believe, is that some "groups" don't fit as well with the family theme of WDW as others. Disagree, if you will, but I think you are fooling yourselves. A group of 10 or 50 or 100 probably wouldn't do this, but a group of the size mentioned certainly would change the atmosphere of the park. This is particularly true where the members of the group tend to define themselves by their membership in that group.

What I have suggested is that Disney try to make a realistic analysis of the situation, and accept the fact that this may diminish from the enjoyment of some significant number of guests, and thus let them know. Label these people intollerent if you must, but isn't this just the type of thing that many have indicated that they wish to avoid.

Of course, all individuals are welcome. The only one to suggest anything different are those that have suggested that they wished to keep their children away from those individuals that they have labeled as intolerant.

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by waltandjulie


What I have suggested is that Disney try to make a realistic analysis of the situation, and accept the fact that this may diminish from the enjoyment of some significant number of guests, and thus let them know. Label these people intollerent if you must, but isn't this just the type of thing that many have indicated that they wish to avoid.



Am I missing a point? Isn't that what this does in a way that isn't offensive to anyone?

The flyer from my room

June 2002

Dear Walt Disney World Resort Hotel Guest,

Welcome to the Walt Disney World Resort! We are excited that you chose the Walt Disney World Resort for your vacation destination, and we hope you enjoy your stay with us.

On Saturday, June 1, we are expecting a very busy day at the Magic Kingdom Park. To ensure that everyone has a chance to take full advantage of what our Theme Parks have to offer, on this day we will open Disney's Animal Kingdom Theme Park and the Disney-MGM Studios at 8:00 a.m. exclusively for our Resort Guests. The Magic Kingdom Park and Epcot will open at 9:00 a.m.

We hope this information enables you to better plan your time with us.

We wish you a magical stay!

Sincerely,

The Cast of the Walt Disney World Resort

[tonygowell]

What about my sexual orientation is political????

Walt and Julie , there were no pamphlets being passed out. I was there to ride rides with my partner and my friends and have my picture taken with Pooh.

Trust me, the best chance for a kid to have a good time is during GayDays.

Most of us don't have children, so the quality time they got to spend with characters were vastly increased.

The ride times for kiddie attractions were dramatically shortened so what's the problem?

How dare you classify a group of people like Gays/Lesbians/Bisexuals, etc.. with hate groups like KKK or skinheads.

We are in no way similar.

I don't hate you, or think I'm superior.
More open minded, yes, superior...no.

But you are given the freedom of tax breaks, legal marriages, legal adoption, and countless other rights that are denied to me. Those are political statements, and if they bother you...that's just too damn bad.

After all, where would you be Julie...without the LESBIAN efforts of Susan B. Anthony and others like her that helped give you the right to work, get a pay check, vote, and attend town meetings?? I'll tell you where...

you'd be tending house with all those babies you would be having, because you wouldn't dare tell your husband you have a headache. Cooking and cleaning would be all that you would be able to openly do. Good luck getting an education further than middle school. Any reading or writing done would be under the approval of the man of the house. There's no room for creativity as you know...you might get strange ideas.

So you tell me you discriminating bigot? Where's the politics in my vacation???

I want even begin to go into other minority groups and the descriminating factors they face in this country from Republican white men.

So if I want to take a vacation to Disney World with others like myself...I will. Disney shouldn't 'warn' anyone about anything. We're all there to have a good time and spend our EQUALLY green money.


You have a nice day.

[jldriscoll]

tonygowell ....

I am blown away by your well thought out response.

I would only like to say that the resort guest letter posted by Chuck S was a smart move on Disney's part. I say that because Disney was expecting an extrodinary number of GUESTS at MK and if my family were there, a heads up would have been nice so we could choose another park if we wanted. I want to emphasis I said we would choose a different park ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THE CROWD expected.

The group could be 5 headed green beings from another planet, if they don't make my wait too long for HM...... I'd enjoy the company!

[lisaost]

waltandjulie - the failure in your argument is that your statement that certain 'groups' don't fit in with the family theme of WDW assumes that the people attending gay days are not there with THEIR families. I assume that you refer to a family as a mother, a father and 2.3 children. I'm sorry but some people's families don't fit your mold or the mold that you believe Disney is marketing themselves to. I think perhaps it is you who are 'fooling yourself' to think Disney doesn't want people of all colors, races, religions or sexual orientations attending their parks. As was said above.....all our money is still green.

What you suggested that Disney do....Disney did. They informed people and let them make their own decision. Obviously, that was not enough for you. You want Disney to tell you that it's Gay Days so you can avoid the gay persons - right?

So if that's the case, I stand by my original post - word for word.

[waltandjulie]

Thanks tonygowell...You've proven my point wonderfully....

I'm sure others can decide for themselves whether there are any politics in your post.

Signing off....

;)

[tonygowell]

My post was political...my vacation was not....

But please understand this...if all the GLBT population of Disney World went somewhere else so you could enoy your vacation...

Your non political mind would be exercised thoroughly as you figured out how to turn the attraction on so you could ride it. Of course, that's if there were anyone working the turnstiles to let you in.

Without us there would be no zoos or theme parks, cruise lines or Hollywood,
and there certainly wouldn't be ANY Disney programming/cartoons.

Yet the glorification of the 99.9% of welfare cases remains to be heterosexuals, causing all of our tax dollars to go up.

I'm thrilled that we have a motivation to get a job and not have children once a year....aren't you?

I won't even begin on capital hill budget cuts in AIDS research.....silly boys don't realize that the GLBT community now ranks last on the yearly reports for disease contractions.

Yep, straights are at the top.
Go figure.....you're voting to kill yourselves..

Apparently the societal slant that only gays can get it still holds true today.

Now , that my dear....is a political statement

[crazyforgoofy]

Never been to WDW during GayDays but wish I could be there sometime. And I'd like to bring my daughter and her partner with me. When we were there last Christmas time they were the couple who wasn't holding hands and didn't smooch and pose for pictures under the mistletoe because they didn't want others to feel uncomfortable or to be treated rudely. If going during a time when lots of gay and lesbian couples were there would allow them to feel free to act like everyone else even for the day I'd be thrilled. And at the risk of being "political", I don't believe homosexuality is a "lifestyle" or a "choice", it just is.

[SillyGirl]

This whole thread is incredibly sad. That people can be so intolerant is amazing, however you can't very well come down on them about being intolerant because then you'd be a hypocrite. What a horrible catch-22.

I don't want to tolerate other people's intolerance, but I have to realize it takes all kinds. I think it's a moot point that WDW did what they should have done in warning resort guests that they expected a large crowd of PEOPLE.

It seems the issue has gotten much more personal (which these conversations often do) and since we all know that narrow minded people can't see past the end of their nose it's hard to argue with them.

Everyone is part of a family. If you're at all religious then you believe we're all part of the SAME family. Disney is for families. Discrimination is bad! What a way to teach your children to be bigots.

Careful, you might catch GAY!

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by SillyGirl
This whole thread is incredibly sad. That people can be so intolerant is amazing, however you can't very well come down on them about being intolerant because then you'd be a hypocrite. What a horrible catch-22.

I completely agree with you. The fact that a discussion/thread like this is possible simply shows how far we still have to go in dealing with discrimination, not just about sexual orientation, but discrimination on dozens of other areas.

[ragamuffin]

Everyone is part of a family. If you're at all religious then you believe we're all part of the SAME family. Disney is for families. Discrimination is bad! What a way to teach your children to be bigots.


I'm sure for some people they just don't like gays. But for me and I'm sure a lot of others, they don't like the fact that the gay lifestyle is seen as a perfectly healthy way of living that is pre-determined and "once you realize you're gay, then you have to accept it." Fact is that although many studies have been devised to attempt to prove a gay gene, most have met with inconclusive evidence and have proven that the gay lifestyle is at least partially resultant from one's environment. And even if it was genetically related, that doesn't mean its the way you have to be, as many disorders such as manic depression and schizophrenia are also linked to genetics.

I AM NOT intolerant, i just want people to know that there are other choices and that they can change. MY life changed because of my FAITH, not because of religion. I was living in a certain way and did not want to continue in that way because of my convictions. I've read wonderful stories about men and women who "came out" of their homosexual lifestyles and now live lives they had never dreamed of.

I'm sure this will offend many, but I guess I have the right to an opinion.

**Going back to the original message, No you should not get a refund - if you would have read these boards or almost any other disney information site over the last year you would know exactly when gay days are held and it is not Disney's responsibility to notify anyone of events that they are not sponsoring.

[lisaost]

I AM NOT intolerant, i just want people to know that there are other choices and that they can change.

Oh my God....I don't even know where to begin so I'm just going to say if you really believe people CAN change, then there IS hope for you yet.

I am sick to my stomach now. :rolleyes: :(

[SillyGirl]

Originally posted by ragamuffin

....most have met with inconclusive evidence and have proven that the gay lifestyle is at least partially resultant from one's environment. And even if it was genetically related, that doesn't mean its the way you have to be, as many disorders such as manic depression and schizophrenia are also linked to genetics.


#1. I don't think a short vacation where children are subjected to people who are same sex oriented will "turn them gay".

#2. I'm not sure how you can link manic depression and schizophrenia to being gay. If you are gay you can't take a pill to make you "all better."

I know many people who are gay although I am not myself. It never seems to be a choice. It just is. Some have been in traditional marriages and they try to conform to societal standards but it's not who they really are.

Why are some people attracted to the opposite sex? Because you're told to? or because you just are?

Sorry, that was all off topic, but more on topic is the fact that just because there is a large group of same sex couples in one location doesn't mean it's an orgy and chances are your kids aren't going to be ruined by seeing a few people of the same sex holding hands, hugging or heaven forbid, kissing.

Sure, some people are uncomfortable with it, mostly stemming (in my opinion) from a lack of self assurance with their own sexuality and inability to be tolerant of differing ways of life.

[docswkids]

The best part of living in the United States of America is that you are free to choose your religion(if you choose to have one), career, friends, loved ones, beliefs and you also have the right to go to public places and not be discriminated against for those choices. Ragamuffin, I dont think anyone on this board was asking for an opinion poll about whether or not you agree with a gay lifestyle. You probably dont agree with my religion either, but would you openly object to Jew days at disney world?

[~Czarina~]

Personally, we were there during one of the cheerleading camps/exhibits, whatever and I was extremely aggitated. The kids were disrespectful and pushy and there seemed to be very little adult supervision, GENERALLY. I did meet some pleasant girls also. However, I would never knowingly go to WDW when they are going to be there or if they have a designated park for a day, I would avoid it like the plague. Gay Day is another time that I, personally, would avoid. Any time a specific group is established at a park, others are ostrasized. I don't think it is a lack of compassion or acceptance. It is simply getting enough information to make a intelligent decision.

I don't understand why this is a political debate. Just because the words gay or lesbian are used does NOT mean this is politically motivated or a religious 'thing.' I think it is simply a respect for others and getting the most possible information out so people can decide.

Czarina's mom because I couldn't figure out how to get on MY sn. I am not computer literate. I suppose there will be responses that I am not literate in other ways too, but so be it.

[Nuts4Disney]

Vapoohbear:

1st let me say Welcome! We always like to meet new friends here at The DIS!

Unfortunately, I neither agree with you nor understand your initial post. I do not think that you made clear what happened at GAYDAYS that ruined your vacation. Did something happen? Or was it simply the fact that there were many people who chose to identify themselves as Gay at the park that day?

I have attended Gay Days in the past with my [DH=Dear Honey] Partner, adorned in red shirts, & we have never witnessed any inappropriate behavior on GAYDAY. I would not like to bear witness to inappropriate behavior by anyone, either.

Despite what others may choose to believe, our intention of attending GAYDAYS is the same intention we have on any other visit to WDW -- to enjoy WDW. I believe that is the intention of most, if not all, of the other attendees. Gays hold a "March on Washington" to make political statements not GAYDAYS.

There is a whole history behind GAYDAYS, but the bottom line is it is a day of "Pride." It is very sad to me if just the fact that Gays are more "visible" to you on that day makes you that uncomfortable, if that is what you are saying. Gays are around all the time, at the MK & elsewhere. Perhaps you just haven't noticed us.

I'd also like to give my opinion on your question of a refund. I'm sorry, but I do not think that WDW would feel you warrant a refund because, as others have said, with a hopper pass you had a choice to leave MK & go to another park without it costing you any more money. It is a shame if you did not do that. It is also a shame if 1 day, or a few hours of 1 day, ruined your family's entire vacation.

IMHO, it is also not up to WDW to give refunds to guests because of their personal biases against other paying guests of WDW. There is another reason that I do not believe that WDW would offer you a refund. I am friends with several CMs at WDW. They have told me that some guests, though I am not saying this is you, try to capitalize on GAYDAYS by complaining profusely that it ruined their vacation & then seek refunds/comps.



One more thought before I lose my steam....

Cheerleaders - welcome.
School bands - welcome.
International tour groups - annoying, but welcome.
KKK, skin heads, gay pride, PETA, anarchists, etc. - no thanks.
KKK

WaltandJulie: I believe that people got the impression that you were "intolerant" by your above post. I also think they were more than gracious in offering you an apology if they offended you by their response to your statement. Your own words speak volumes! IMHO, you seem more interested in inflaming others than answering Vapoohbear's question.

[JonHM]

First of all, let me say that last year, DW and I arrived at WDW unknowingly on the final day of Gay Days. We knew nothing of it until we entered the Magic Kingdom. All I can say is that is one of the most *wonderful* days that we have ever had at WDW. We saw absolutely *nothing* inappropriate - simply lots of people having fun and enjoying WDW just as it should be.

Walt&Julie- I really do not think that gay people 'define themselves' as gay - the gay people that I know 'define themselves' as PEOPLE. It is intolerant people in society who 'define' them as gay. On that entire day that we were there last year, we did not see ANY political statement - simply lots of people enjoying their vacations and sharing in the Disney Magic. In fact, the thing that I found most moving and wonderful about Gay Days last year was that here were all these people that ALL of society defines as 'gay' before any other character trait, all the other days of the year - and for these few days at Disney World, they were not being singled out that way - they could just be people, just like everyone else at Disney World! Yes, certainly, I saw a LOT of pride in those wearing red shirts, but it came through in their smile and their demeanor - not in the form of 'political statements' being shouted or worn on signs or t-shirts. And you know what? Next year we're going back to WDW with my toddler son and SIL and her two kids - again during the last few days of Gay Days... and I boldly predict that we will again have a wonderful time.

As for your statement that Disney only 'tolerates' gay people because they do not have the strength of will to openly oppose the supposedly horrific political correctness of our society, I have some news for you. Disney is one of the most gay-friendly companies in the US - by CHOICE. Perhaps you don't read the news, but for a number of years the Southern Baptist Convention openly advocating boycotting all things Disney because they treated their gay employees the SAME as each of their other employees - equal access to health care for partners was the original issue, I believe. The Disney Corporation has been a trailblazer in instituting these types of policies, without any precedents from any large companies to motivate it to do so.

It is my great desire that finding out that Disney is such an openly gay-friendly company will cause people like you, VaPoohbear and Ragamuffin to organize your own little boycott - perhaps it will shock you so much that you will never attend WDW again.

Both WaltandJulie and Ragamuffin, thanks for giving me the biggest laugh I've had in a long time by your hilarious statements that neither of you are intolerant. That was a hoot! :)

WaltandJulie - so you think that if the Republicans decided to hold their next convention at the Swan, that Disney World should send out 'warnings' to guests - after all, they'd be making political statements, wouldn't they? And they'd be there defining themselves by their membership in 'that' group. And the presence of that many of 'them' in the parks might make some of us uncomfortable....

Ragamuffin - I won't say that you're sick, but some of your views truly are. (You know that approach, don't you? Love the sinner, hate the sin?) To act like there is anything 'wrong' with gay people that would need to be 'cured' is one of the most offensive things that I have ever heard. By the way, no one has ever 'scientifically proven' that intolerant bigots actually have smaller brains than the rest of us, but that don't mean it ain't true!

tonygowell - 2 *excellent* posts! Very well thought out, well said. Kudos!

[scanne]

I just think that it is sooo sad in this day and age, and with what our country went through on 9/11, that we all can't embrace each other as human beings and accept one another as brothers and sisters. Truly, in the eyes of a child, love is seen as love and nothing more.

I've been following this thread since I first saw it and I think it's becoming a huge debate on what people think is "right" or "tolerant" or just plain ignorance. I am pregnant with my first child, and both my DH and myself are so excited to be able to take him to WDW for the first time! If we 'happened' to go during a Gay Pride weekend, so be it. I have seen gay and lesbian couples at WDW on MANY of my visits and they are simply loving, nurturing people. Why wouldn't I want my child to see that? LOVE IS WHAT SHOULD MAKE THIS WORLD GO 'ROUND!!! And there is no right or wrong way to love another person! We are all children in the eyes of God, and I believe God loves us all.

(BTW, I am not a very religious person, and if I were I would find some of the teachings of certain religions to be intolerant!)

I hope I haven't 'offended' anyone. I just wanted everyone to know that we need to stop labeling and start loving!!!

[theboysmom]

This is my very first post.

I used this site when planning my trip for 5/29 - 6/5 of this year. I was in Disney World during the entire Gay Day Celebration and had no problems. I found out about the conference by visiting this site prior to my trip. I than looked up the website for the Gay Day Celebration and planned my trip around the schedule stated (in order to avoid crowds only). It worked wonderfully. We had low crowds and reasonable wait times. I never anticipated a problem nor had one. I also found that they had a block of rooms reserved at the same Hotel as us. Again, no problems. I honestly felt that the people attending the celebration were in many ways more respectful and courteous than the average guest.

My husband and I agreed that we would have no problem visiting during the celebration again.

P.S. I hope I did this properly

[Eeyore1954]

ragamuffin: I am sitting here literally biting my tongue until it bleeds (OUCH! :mad: ). I will not make the mistake ever again of referring to someone's opinions as intolerant, because there are people on here who will stretch the facts and make accusations of name-calling. However, your post was the most incredible piece of writing I have read in a long, long time. I did not think that in 2002 there were still people around who could possibly believe that individuals who are gay or lesbian needed to be
cured ! Then to equate being gay with mental illnesses like depression and schizophrenia goes beyond belief. :mad: :confused: :eek: :p

Please take some time, go on the Internet or to your local library and do some reading. You will find that many years ago the medical community discarded these ideas as ancient and more importantly, incorrect ! Welcome to the new millennium and a new way of thinking.

theboysmom: Welcome to the DIS! Thanks for your post and you did it perfectly. :D

[Chuck S]

Hey Ragamuffin,
Have you ever heard of John Paulk? He was the chairman of EXODUS , one of the largest religious based groups that claimed they can "cure" homosexuals. He was dismissed from his post in October of 2000, after being photographed in a gay pick-up bar. What was he doing there? He claimed that he 1)didn't know it was a gay bar (if you're an anti-gay activist how can you NOT know) and 2) that he only went in to USE the restroom. Do you think he was innocently doing research on how well the "cure" worked? :rolleyes:

[ragamuffin]

Ragamuffin, I dont think anyone on this board was asking for an opinion poll about whether or not you agree with a gay lifestyle.
Nor were they asking for yours or the other 43 postings on this topic. But if you notice I did also make a reply to the original post regarding whether he should get a refund.

You probably dont agree with my religion either, but would you openly object to Jew days at disney world?
I've re-read my post - could you PLEASE point out where I said I object to gay-days??? In fact, I totally disagree w/the original poster about getting a refund or that it's Disney's place to object to any group. As far as whether I would agree with your religion, well that might depend on if you were a MESSIANIC jew or not... As for me, its not so much religion as it is faith.

I did not think that in 2002 there were still people around who could possibly believe that individuals who are gay or lesbian needed to be cured !
I never said <B>needed</B> to be cured. But it's an option. Many people have done it.

Then to equate being gay with mental illnesses like depression and schizophrenia goes beyond belief.
Well, alcoholism and obesity are also thought to be genetically linked. That doesn't mean they have to be accepted.

Please take some time, go on the Internet or to your local library and do some reading.
Maybe you should do the same. I've been reading about this for over 5 years. Just for starters:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/gaygene990422.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/html98/gayy_19990423.html

The evidence either way is not conclusive. But the evidence for a 'gay gene' has been debunked, mostly by the identical twin study. This study was concluded that though there are possible genetic tendencies that may lead one into homosexuality, but that genetics could not be the whole story. Most of Hamer's research from the 1990's have been dis-credited or unable to be replicated. But either way, my point was that being gay is not set in stone and that many people have changed their lifestyle - but like any deviation it is a change that has to be wanted by the person.

By the way, no one has ever 'scientifically proven' that intolerant bigots actually have smaller brains than the rest of us, but that don't mean it ain't true!
You are so kind. You are a truly loving, nurturing person...

I'm surprised by the reaction to my post. I was simply giving another opinion and have never said that homosexuals needed to be cured, simply saying that many have changed their lifestyles and I wanted to give some background on what i've studied.

[Lainy67]

Frankly, I wish that they would tell us when ANY group is in the park. We went several years ago, and there were a bunch of (gasp) soccor kids from various countries obviously at a convention of some sort. It was normally fine, until they grouped up in their teams and tried to do something. They were pushy, and forget trying to get a spot to view the parades during that time.

I applaud that they mentioned something to the resort guests about it being crowded, but I don't see the harm if they had some sort of board going where the various LARGE groups would be acknowledged to be in the parks those days. Be it Cheerleaders, Soccor Players, or Gays.

Reardless of peoples beliefs about whether the Gay / Lesbian lifestyle is a choice or not (I could frankly care less whether it is or not) there are some people out there who do not choose to expose their young children to something they are not willing to explain or that they believe should not be explained until they are older. Right or wrong, it is their opinion. It stunned me when I first encountered this. I took my dd who was 5 or 6 at the time to see the movie In and Out because I loved the actors in it, and it looked funny. It was hysterical. My daughter wanted to know what gay was, I told her, she said oh, ok. And that was it. I had friends however, that were appalled that I would take her to see it. They would never do that. You know what, that is their choice.

They had the choice to not take their kids to a movie. However, I have had friends that have not been internet savvy that scheduled a trip to Disney and found out after arriving that it was Gay Days. They were fairly upset. They had had no choice. They didn't know it was a possibility. They had to explain to their kids why there were two men holding hands or two girls kissing, and they were not prepared, nor had they been willing to explain it to kids that they considered too young before that. As parents, it should have been their choice. By the time they were in MK it was too late. They did not have the choice to go to another park before their kids were asking questions, because they were not told. And being told there might be large crowds is not the same as being told there are organized groups of any sort. I might brave large crowds of MANY families. However, large crowds of teenagers with very LIMITED adult supervision is another thing to me.

I do not see the harm in having it posted somewhere what groups and how large they are are anticipated in the parks. I don't see any legal ramifications although, maybe there is that I am unaware of. I know this may be difficult with some groups, as they are not necessarily telling the parks. But things that Disney is aware of is something they could do.

[JonHM]

First of all, let me say... why, thank you. I was worried you were going to completely ignore me - you just saved me for the bottom of your post. Please note two things about my quote, since you are being so literal about what you did and did not say. First, I *never* said that *you* were an intolerant bigot, I was speaking in general. And second, I *never* said that it was actually true that intolerant bigots have smaller brains, I *simply* said that the fact that something has not been 'scientifically proven' does not mean that it is not correct or true. There has never been any 'scientific proof' of much of the crux of your religion, but you believe it because you feel it in your bones; as you said, you have faith. Well, I have complete and utter faith that someone either IS or IS NOT gay. There is no choice, people just are what they are. You know, many religious people like to attack 'scientific' evidence all the time - for instance, do you agree with the theory of evolution? But when it is convenient for them, such as a case where one could say that something has not been scientifically proven, they pull out the science card. I find that very interesting.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I must wholeheartedly and completely disagree with you that 'many' people have been 'cured' of being gay. First of all, what is offensive is not your supposedly saying that it did or did not *need* to be cured, but simply your saying that it was something that *could* be cured - it likens homosexuality to a disease, and that, my friend, is horribly offensive. During the last centuries of the Roman Empire, before Constantine, I'm sure there were many Romans who spoke of being Christian the way you speak of being gay - that it is a choice, that you could change your religion easily to the mainstream religion of the Romans if you 'wanted' to - and also that you could be 'cured' of being a Christian, again, if you wanted to. Now of course someone who has complete faith in Christianity could not just 'decide' to change religions - they ARE a Christian, and nor would their changing religions, or pretending not to be Christian, mean that they had been 'cured'.

As for your assertion that many gay people have been 'cured', it is my considered opinion that those are people who are simply denying their homosexuality, either to their family and friends, or even to themselves. Certainly, gay people can have heterosexual relationships or live in denial, but that does not make them any less gay. In fact, one of the problems in trying to 'prove' any sort of genetic basis for homosexuality would be the tremendous stigma that exists in our society towards anyone gay: this stigma would cause many people being 'studied' to say, oh no, I'm not gay. That doesn't mean they aren't. This is a topic which would be almost impossible to 'scientifically prove'.

Oh, and as far as your complement to me: "You are so kind. You are a truly loving, nurturing person...", I have but one thing to say:

Right back at'cha, sweetie!

[JonHM]

Absolutely true, that it is your friends' choice as to when and whether they speak to their children about homosexuality. But unless they were going to keep them locked in the attic or something, the incident (her kids seeing two men holding hands or two women kissing) could have happened ANYWHERE. It just happened to happen in WDW. They could have seen that at their local mall. Or they could have seen it ANY time of year at WDW. To me, if you get to the point where children are asking something, and you haven't spoken to them about it yet, that is simply a consequence of choosing to wait to speak about it. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with their choosing to wait, that is their decision. But the longer one waits, the more likely that something like that is going to force the issue.

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by Lainy67

I do not see the harm in having it posted somewhere what groups and how large they are are anticipated in the parks. I don't see any legal ramifications although, maybe there is that I am unaware of. I know this may be difficult with some groups, as they are not necessarily telling the parks. But things that Disney is aware of is something they could do.

But therein lies the problem, should any group have to ADVISE Disney that they will be attending a park...if they don't give Disney previous advise...should they be allowed entry if they have tickets? For example, say a large group DID show up, and had not advised Disney that it may be attending. If someone found them objectionable, could they then sue Disney for not posting the possibility, since it was policy to post about other groups? And how many constitute a group? 5, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000?

How could someone get all the way through the gates of the MK before realizing a really large group was there? They would have had to arrive via 1)resort bus 2)Monorail 3)boat or 4)walked from the Contemporary. Seeing a lot of people that are all wearing red should have given them a clue BEFORE they went through the turnstiles that a large group of SOME KIND was there.

[JonHM]

that there are many large groups of people visiting WDW practically all the time.

[Lainy67]

OH, I agree completely with you. In fact I had something in there about how I thought it was wrong because it could have happened anywhere, and they would have to deal with it, but I took it out :rolleyes: because I was getting long winded. LOL.

I think their view was that if it had been a single couple they would have been able to deal with it differently, but with it being many, they got asked a lot more questions. Right or wrong, it did impact their vacation in a way they did not want.

My point is that I believe that Disney could give notice of ANY large group that they are aware AWARE will be at a particular park on a particular day. If they are not aware of course nothing can be done.

[Nuts4Disney]

CRAZYFORGOOFY: Thank you for your post. I could not have said it better myself! You're a great Mom! :D

THANK YOU to all of you who replied with support & tolerance toward gays & others. It is truly appreciated! Reading your positive experiences with gays & GAYDAYS gave this miserable thread a positive spin.

THEBOYSMOM: WELCOME!!!! Your 1st post was perfect! Thank you for posting & hope you enjoy the DIS! :D

RAGAMUFFIN:

"Thou dost think thee protests too much!"

Here is a link to a series of articles you may find as interesting as I did. It also ran as a documentary on PBS. A particularly interesting part of the series is: "Roots of Homophobia"

"Many heterosexuals repress homosexual tendencies, Sigmund Freud believed, and some repress them more strongly than others. Homophobia is the name for what Freud saw as heterosexuals' "vigorous counter-attitudes" to homosexuality. For most of this century, many writers on the topic, following Freud, have accepted this relationship between repressed (or "latent") homosexuality and homophobia. But, Dr. Henry Adams of the University of Georgia, was the first to attempt to test the proposition empirically. The results? Individuals who score in the homophobic range on the "Homophobia Scale" demonstrate signficant... homosexual..."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/

I am sad for you that you felt that you couldn't accept yourself for who you are & felt the need to "change" such an intrinsic part of you. You only [i]infer that you "were" gay, you do not seem even able to say the word about yourself.

It is too bad that you did not seek out help from a reputable psychotherapist knowledgable in gay issues. They probably could have helped you through your Internalized Homophobia to accepting yourself & others. I wish you peace in your life.

[Nuts4Disney]

Good Point, ChuckS!

Originally posted by Lainy67


...They had to explain to their kids why there were two men holding hands or two girls kissing, and they were not prepared, nor had they been willing to explain it to kids that they considered too young before that...

Lainy67: Forgive me for using your post & singling you out here. This is NOT directed at you, personally. I know this has been taken out of context of your original post. I have read similar comments like this regarding GAYDAYS from straight & gay posters, & I have taken the liberty to "borrow" this from your post so that I may comment on this. Thank you for letting me quote this.


Would the children be too young to see a heterosexual couple holding hands, exchanging a loving glance, giving eachother a warm embrace, sharing a gentle kiss, holding eachother while slow dancing, or sitting together -- their arm over the shoulder of their beloved -- on a park bench?

There appears to be a double standard when same gender couples act the way heterosexual couples do. That double standard could be summed up in 1 word: HOMOPHOBIA!

[Jackie H.]

Well, I think this thread had gotten pretty ugly in the middle there, but people seem to have calmed down now.

My question is this: did I miss it or didn't the original poster only post the one time? I mean he/she never responded to any replys, did they? Was the sole purpose of this post to start a fight?

Gotta wonder.....

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by Lainy67
My point is that I believe that Disney could give notice of ANY large group that they are aware AWARE will be at a particular park on a particular day. If they are not aware of course nothing can be done.

So, again, if many individuals show up, dressed in similar shirts without giving prior notice to WDW and someone finds them offensive - that's OK, as long as WDW didn't know about it prior to their arrival?

[Lainy67]

Originally posted by Chuck S


But therein lies the problem, should any group have to ADVISE Disney that they will be attending a park...if they don't give Disney previous advise...should they be allowed entry if they have tickets? For example, say a large group DID show up, and had not advised Disney that it may be attending. If someone found them objectionable, could they then sue Disney for not posting the possibility, since it was policy to post about other groups? And how many constitute a group? 5, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000?


Originally posted by Chuck S


So, again, if many individuals show up, dressed in similar shirts without giving prior notice to WDW and someone finds them offensive - that's OK, as long as WDW didn't know about it prior to their arrival?

I think you are taking my statements out of context.

I never said they shouldn't be let in. Or that anyone could sue. Or anything about keeping anyone out. Nor did I say that any group should have to advise Disney of anything. My suggestion is that notifying people of large groups is an option that IMO would be helpful when Disney is aware of it.

I am not offended by a large group of teenagers, but I may choose to spend my day where it might be quieter or less stimulating for my young child (as other kids get rowdy, my kids do). If I have that option, I might choose to use it. If I don't know about it, I can't. And by large group I mean several hundred or even several thousand.

I think that what Disney did was appropriate. I wish that they did it every time is my point. Announcing that they are expecting large crowds. I however, don't see the harm in saying that a large group of soccor players, or cheerleaders or gay people are going to be there at certain times if they are aware of it. I may avoid a park where thousands of Baptist Youth Groups are attending, yet may be fine in that same park where thousands of Gay adults and families are attending. To me a lot of the criteria is age and amount of supervision. For you it may be something else. However, if announcing the groups affiliation is a problem, then stating that large crowds are expected due to a convention or gathering is fine by me. That gives me options.


Originally posted by Nuts4Disney
Good Point, ChuckS!



Lainy67: Forgive me for using your post & singling you out here. This is NOT directed at you, personally. I know this has been taken out of context of your original post. I have read similar comments like this regarding GAYDAYS from straight & gay posters, & I have taken the liberty to "borrow" this from your post so that I may comment on this. Thank you for letting me quote this.


Would the children be too young to see a heterosexual couple holding hands, exchanging a loving glance, giving eachother a warm embrace, sharing a gentle kiss, holding eachother while slow dancing, or sitting together -- their arm over the shoulder of their beloved -- on a park bench?

There appears to be a double standard when same gender couples act the way heterosexual couples do. That double standard could be summed up in 1 word: HOMOPHOBIA!

NUTS4Disney - No problem using my quote in that scenario. I agree with what you said. But unfortunately, living in the South, more specifically the Bible Belt, many people I know are not very openminded about this or quite frankly many other things (being a Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan has gotten me into some rather heated discussions - LOL). I am not sure it is actually Homophobia in a lot of cases or just fear of the unknown, unseen, different in general. I know people who are very uncomfortable around gay people or even references to being gay. But in a lot of situations these same people are uncomfortable around Hispanics, and working women, and people with piercings. They are not hateful about it, but just unexposed to it and uncomfortable.

Frankly I hope there will come a time when there will be no need for Gay Days at WDW.:D

[Minnie's Pal]

I think the reason why the person who started this post has not responded is probably b/c they didn't realize what they were starting here.

And just to add my opinion in there, I think everyone has the right to have their own opinion. Whether you are for, against or just plain out don't have an opinion one way or another.