Much to your chagrin...

[raidermatt]

...I have returned!!! Some random thoughts...

Was at the BWV from 5/25-6/8 and the trip did nothing but reaffirm my car 1 status.

Saw Spetcro, Figment, and got pictures with Lilo and Stitch on Saturday.

Found the Singin' in the Rain umbrella and am happy to say it was fully functional.

Apparently, we just missed the re-opening of Carousel and Timekeeper, which is too bad, but hopefully they will continue to open during peak times.

BAH is an excellent icon, and beautiful at night.

Saw workers climbing around on Space.

Saw Pop Century from the road.

While I'm not completely convinced Dinorama belongs in AK, or couldn't have been better, it is still a nice addition to the park. I frankly went expecting to come away with a negative opinion, but it just didn't happen. PW really is a lot of fun, and I know that's not all we expect from Disney, but it is much better done than I expected.

Shula's is awesome. As good a steak as I've ever had.

Of course the usual suspects were great, including Tower, Pirates, Peter Pan, the Mountains, Kilamanjaro, Fantasmic, Illuminations, Tapestry of Dreams, etc etc etc.... But since this was only our second trip to WDW, there were some things we saw for the first time that we particularly enjoyed:

Hunchback show
Cranium Command
Wave Pool at TL
All of the new parades
Tarzan Rocks
Festival of the Lion King

Transportation was great. Never waited more than 10-15 minutes for a bus/boat, and ususally 5 or less. However, it would be very "Magical" if AK could get some other transportation to it other than busses. Its the only park we couldn't take boat/monorail to. Not a time issue, but just a "Magic" issue...

Of course I'll happy to answer any questions, or provide more worthless opinions....;)

[toefungus]

How were crowds and the lines??

[raidermatt]

We were in the parks at some point almost every day from Sunday 5/26 through Saturday 6/8.

We were a little surprised at how light the crowds were the first week, including Sunday and Monday of Memorial Day weekend. We rarely saw any posted wait times over 60 minutes, and those were easily avoided by using FastPass. Most posted waits were 30 or less, which really means 20 or less.

Things were definitely picking up the second week. Walkways were getting more crowded at all of the parks, and we started seeing wait times over an hour.

Still, by using FastPass, we never waited longer than 20 mintues for any attraction.

One thing I noticed on this trip is that people are getting FastPasses and then waiting at the FastPass entrance for their window to open. Not only is this a waste of their time, it causes traffic problems in the more crowded areas, like outside Buzz and Peter Pan.

Of course, there are huge crowds if your trying to see Spectro, but maybe that will get better now that there are more showings. We had planned on heading to MK on Sat 6/1 because it was going to be our only chance to see it, but fortunately they added a Spectro on 5/31, so we saw that one and just stayed at Epcot on 6/1. 5/31 was still crowded, but I'm sure 6/1 was much worse.

[raidermatt]

Well, it was the first parade I'd ever went to that passed an offering plate! ;)

Seriously though, I'm sure somebody will point out how in reality, we only believed our guest experience was being enhanced, and that this was all part of some ploy to get us to buy more plush at Downtown Disney...

:D

[mrtoadslastride]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Welcome back Matt!

Sounds like you had a great trip!

Hey, why do you think WDW decided to add the previously, unscheduled 5/31 Spectro showing?

Were you charged extra for this? Did the WDW cast members agree to waive their pay for this? Do you think adding this extra Spectro increased the costs for operating WDW on May 31, 2002?
If so, were there any characters outside the entrances ringing bells and asking for voluntary contributions by guests to offset the increased costs of adding this Spectro? Was there an exit fee instead maybe?

And, finally, did adding this Spectro increase or decrease the guest experience that day?

Just curious. No ulterior motives at all. Nope, just curious....


Maybe if they hadn't cut Spectro to a couple of times a week they wouldn't have had to add it on 5/31. We were in WDW 5/25-29 and there was only one night we could catch Spectro. We took our niece and had to spend an extra $50 because we weren't planning on going in the parks on our first day (didn't arrive until 5), but since there was only 1 show we had to buy an extra day for her. I really don't like having to plan my trip around the occasional Spectro show. Is Spectro any less popular than Illuminations or Fantasmic? Why haven't they been cut back to a couple of nights a week? If it is just because management knows that guests will abandon MGM and Epcot after dark if there isn't a show. If so, it just shows that they are trying to cut visitor experience as much as possible without affecting the money spent by guests.

[Bob O]

Im glad you had a great time!!!!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Matt (or Sir Raider, if you prefer),

Welcome back!! I’m glad you enjoyed yourself. I know the feeling well!! :bounce:

Was at the BWV from 5/25-6/8 and the trip did nothing but reaffirm my car 1 status.Yep! I know what you mean. Now don’t tell anyone, but I leap into car #1 whenever I’m there!! I have a unique ability to push most of the nonsense into the background and just go with the flow (although I’m not shy about visiting guest services every now and then). I enjoy my family and we make our own magic (not that Disney doesn’t help out quite a bit still). Which is why I can empathize with my good friend the Pirate (or Captain) when he says that Disney still holds the magic because his kids enjoy it so!!

It’s only when I get back and reflect on the way things used to be and the obvious (and rather radical) change in philosophy that I get back into the driver’s seat of car #3!! And I really can’t understand how anyone could possibly feel differently! I’m really not kidding, or setting up a huge debate. It is really how I feel.But since this was only our second trip to WDW, there were some things we saw for the first time that we particularly enjoyedWell!!! This little tidbit took me by surprise. You probably mentioned it before and I wasn’t paying attention. I thought you were a long time seasoned veteran!

So it got me to thinking (a dangerous thing in the best of times). When I (or any old-timer) posts that things are radically different today from the philosophy that they used to employ, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you believe it? Do you totally disregard it? Do you give it any consideration at all? In other words, what’s your base line? To what do you refer when judging whether or not Disney is living up to its standards? (a subject that is kicked around here quite a bit.)Seriously though, I'm sure somebody will point out how in reality, we only believed our guest experience was being enhanced, and that this was all part of some ploy to get us to buy more plush at Downtown Disney...Lately, very sadly, it is certainly the way it seems.

[raidermatt]

Mr. Matt (or Sir Raider, if you prefer),

Matt is fine, until the Raiders win another Super Bowl, anyway...;)

...I really can’t understand how anyone could possibly feel differently! I’m really not kidding, or setting up a huge debate. It is really how I feel.

While I may not agree with everything you say, believe me, I do not doubt your sincerity or passion.

When I (or any old-timer) posts that things are radically different today from the philosophy that they used to employ, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you believe it? Do you totally disregard it? Do you give it any consideration at all?

No way I can disregard comments/opinions from WDW old-timers. For example, your comments on another thread about park hours being less now than pre-1998. You (and others) have certainly proven your sincerity and honesty in the past, so I take it as being fact without trying to dig up old info in some dank corner of the web.

In other words, what’s your base line? To what do you refer when judging whether or not Disney is living up to its standards? (a subject that is kicked around here quite a bit.)

Well, while my first trip to WDW was in 2000, I was fortunate enough to get to make some trips to DL in the 70's and 80's, as a little tyke and through my college years. Most of the pre-1986 dates in my signature are guesses, and I may have even missed one or two. Certainly I look at things differently at 33 than I did at 8, but I did grow up with the belief that DL was the absolute most wonderful place in the world.

So my frame of reference is a bit different, and perhaps less complete than others here, but its rooted in the same love for Disney.

I also try to keep an open mind on the various issues. I certainly look at things with a more critical eye than I did prior to getting insights from you, AV, Pirate, Captain, BobO, Show, hopemax, Jeff, etc, etc, etc,....

But to me, the heart of the magic is still there in Peter Pan, Pirates, and most other places I turn. I can feel it in most of Animal Kingdom, and while I understand the points the car 3'ers make, to me, they are merely small chinks in the armor. I know that not everything Disney is doing lives up to the true Disney standard. (I've made that clear on several occaisions, including the "walk time memo") But there is still so much that does! Additions as recent as Splash and most of AK. Things that are below the Disney line, but still above just about anyone else's line (like Dinorama) cannot damage the Magic enough to move me out of car #1.

Its sort of like throwing rocks at The Great Wall. Yeah, eventually it will start to crumble, but after how long? Walt created such a huge "Great Wall of Magic", that either the rocks have got to get a lot bigger (like permanently closing Jungle Cruise without an adequate replacement), or I'm just going to cruise along in car #1 and enjoy the ride.

[DVC-Landbaron]

But to me, the heart of the magic is still there in Peter Pan, Pirates, and most other places I turn. I can feel it in most of Animal Kingdom, and while I understand the points the car 3'ers make, to me, they are merely small chinks in the armor. I know that not everything Disney is doing lives up to the true Disney standard.Now, I quoted the whole paragraph because I want you to know that I agree with your first thought on it. YES!!! Peter Pan, Pirates, and almost 95% of the stuff they have there I LOVE!!! It’s the next little bit I have a problem with. There was a time when there were no chinks in the armor. Does that mean that Disney did everything perfectly? NO!! Of course not. Many, many, many mistakes were made. Just mention the Garden Wings or The Golf Resort (which I still think was NOT a mistake) and you know what I mean. But those were mistakes!! Plain and simple. They were not motivated by greed or a spreadsheet. You somehow knew, right down to your socks, that Disney was trying it’s ever-living best to exceed your expectations. To WOW(!!) you every chance it got. To be the absolute best it could possibly be no matter what the competition did or what their guests would allow them to get away with (Damn the cost, full speed ahead)!!!

I don’t know about you, but Dinorama doesn’t fill me with that kind of feeling. I don’t see it as an honest mistake at all. I see it as a trend. A trend that says, “Hmmm. If they buy this garbage, I’ll bet they’ll even pay for this swill’! And you know what? Most of the time they’re right!! Pretty sad, isn’t it?

Its sort of like throwing rocks at The Great Wall. Yeah, eventually it will start to crumble, but after how long? Walt created such a huge "Great Wall of Magic", that either the rocks have got to get a lot bigger (like permanently closing Jungle Cruise without an adequate replacement), or I'm just going to cruise along in car #1 and enjoy the ride.What a beautiful analogy!!! That’s perfect!

Now picture (if you will) a brand new, pure, perfect and pristine wall. Newly built! Innovative. Creative. Built to stand the test of time. And that is certainly the way one can envision Walt’s philosophy. And today, as I look at that wall, it looks similar to the wall which stands today in China. A great big portion of it still stand (which is why I haven’t sold my DVD interest). But it has taken a beating!!! A severe beating. It is weathered and crumbling. I can still stand in its majesty when I’m there, but it isn’t even close to the same as when it was new. And it looks, at times, that all that’s needed is a strong wind and it’ll come right down!

[DisDuck]

Baron.. How do you know that the Garden Wing &/or The Golf Resort were not motivated by money? Being motivated by money is not always a 'bad' thing.

When I get back from my end of June trip, I will let you know if I see any scratches in the 'wall'.

[space42]

Anyone know when the heck the garden wings were added to the Contemporary anyway? I know they were not always there.

[DisDuck]

I know they were there in July 1986 as I stayed in one at $110/night.

[Another Voice]

The Garden Wings were added to increase the capacity at the Contemporary Resort. Back in the day (for Mr. DisDuck, back in the dark olden days filled with nothing but us old farts), the Con was by far the most popular hotel. In the seventies, the hotel really represented the sleek future we had all been promised in the sixties. The design of the buildings reflected the Tower’s design and was really very impressive for the time. Again, that fashion hasn’t aged well mostly because it’s now seen in every industrial park throughout the country.

The Golf Resort was intentionally designed as a non-Disney, non-themed resort to cater to people not interested in the theme parks. At the time, people took vacations – today people go to WDW for a “brand experience”. It was a different time that had different requirements.

[Bstanley]

The Golf Resort was intentionally designed as a non-Disney, non-themed resort to cater to people not interested in the theme parks. At the time, people took vacations – today people go to WDW for a “brand experience”. It was a different time that had different requirements.

This is something that continues to baffle me about WDW. There are many things to do there that have nothing to do with visiting the Theme Parks. But whenever you talk to folks about visiting WDW they only talk about visiting the Theme Parks.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Did Disney stop trying to convince people to visit WDW as a 'Resort' and people stopped coming for that reason, or was it that no one was coming for the 'Resort' so Disney stopped trying to convince them?

[DisDuck]

Bstanley.. never thought of it just that way. Good idea. Maybe that is why the AllStars and now Pop Century were built. Could be most people now come for the Theme Parks and the resorts are just a place to sleep (hang your hat so to speak). Except of course to some here who believe that the resort itself is a destination.

Question for that crew... If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

[raidermatt]

A great big portion of it still stand (which is why I haven’t sold my DVD interest). But it has taken a beating!!! A severe beating. It is weathered and crumbling.

I understand perfectly what you are saying, I just disagree with the condition of the Wall. It's not crumbling. I can see warning signs, but the structure is still sound and wonderful, and I see reasons to believe Magic is still being created.

It will take more than a few years of spreadsheets to really do any damage. Besides, without the financially prudent side (Roy O.), things can fall apart quicker than they would with a few years without great creativity.

[All Aboard]

If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?Absolutely not. The resort is ancillary to the total experience. The are part of the whole (an important part) but without the theme parks would serve no function for me.

I am not a "passive" vacationer, I need activity. "Going to the beach" is not my type of vacation. (perhaps because I can see one from my office window - well, sort of.)

That's one of the reasons that the All Stars and Moderates serve me perfectly. I spend the lion's share of my waking hours at WDW in the theme parks. To me, the resort is a bed and closet.

I can't bring myself to drop $150+ a night to stay in a deluxe. I'd feel compelled to spend time at the resort in order to "get my money's worth." And that's just not how I want to spend my time at WDW. Perhaps one day, but not now.

[daannzzz]

"Question for that crew... If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?"

I definatley would go to Disney's resorts. i would stay at all levels at different times. BUT I would not stay nearly as long. I am not oneof those who goes on vacation to sit at the pool or beach and read. There is a pool in my back yard the beach is less than an hour away and books are on the shelf in my room. I have to go do stuff on vacation even if it is just driving around.
Staying at a Disney resort would be great for a 2-3 days but I would have to move on if there was nothing in the area to go do.

[mrtoadslastride]

Originally posted by DisDuck

Question for that crew... If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

I would probably still visit, but maybe just once ever 5-10 years instead of every chance I get. Obviously WDW, without the parks would have to have some other draw (golf, gambling?). Part of the answer to this question would be what that draw would be. WDW doesn't have the location to live make money on just the Resorts, put them in the Carribean or Gulf Coast and they would.

[YoHo]

I would still Go. To me the Poly has some of the best themeing in the entire place, but certainly it would not draw me quite the way the complete package does. And really I'm not the kind of person who does all the extra curicular activities except Pleasure Island.

to me it's like a night on the town, except the hotel rooms are still cheaper and so are the meals.

[hopemax]

I wouldn't go only because it's 3300 miles away and the only time I take "relaxing" vacations is for 3 or 4 day weekends, and that's too far to go for such a short period of time. If I'm going for a week or more, I like "commando" vacations.

If I lived close enough to drive to WDW in a day, or fly in about 2-3 hours, yes I would. Find a nice comfy chair in Wilderness Lodge, or a nice spot by the pool and start calling my DH Jeeves. "Jeeves, go get me my Mickey chocolates!"

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well!! The twists and turns a thread takes on these boards!!! Don’t you just love it!! :crazy:

First let me take care of some old business. The original point of the thread, or at least the little bit I interjected first. To Mr. Matt: I understand perfectly what you are saying, I just disagree with the condition of the Wall. It's not crumbling. Well, I don’t know how to not sound arrogant or at least superior. It’s kind of like telling your kids, “You’ll thank me for this someday.” But, and with all due respect and a twinkle in my eye, you didn’t see the wall when it was first built!!! WOW!!! It was pristine!!

Bstanley This is something that continues to baffle me about WDW. There are many things to do there that have nothing to do with visiting the Theme Parks. But whenever you talk to folks about visiting WDW they only talk about visiting the Theme Parks.I don’t think you’re getting the concept. The many things that are there to do TODAY, still have that Disney theme park stuff all over them. Or they are simply leased spaces in Downtown Disney. The Golf Resort was a totally different concept. It was for the ‘vacationer’ who’s main interest was golf. NOT a theme park or anything like it. And while I found the Golf Resort very well themed (in a particularly non-discript way) it was purposely NOT reminiscent of anything else Disney!!

A failed experiment? Maybe. Am I the only one in the world that liked it (and caught the concept)? Again, maybe. But I really think it was an honest try. And one that tried to capture a different market segment while not compromising the lofty Disney standards they had set for themselves. In other words, they weren’t simply pandering to the public in order to make a quick buck (i.e. Pop Century)!



And now for something completely different…..

My Favorite Duck! You really threw in a good one!! And one I had never considered before. Congratulations!! New conversation on the Rumor & News Board!!! :bounce: Question for that crew... If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?Well, immediately I knew the answer. I really hadn’t thought about before, but as soon as the question was posed I knew, absolutely knew, what my answer would be.Absolutely not. The resort is ancillary to the total experience. The are part of the whole (an important part) but without the theme parks would serve no function for me.I couldn’t disagree more!!!! Now, don’t get me wrong. I LOVE the theme parks. But that’s not what draws me to Disney. And it took me quite a while (and many, many pages of long winded posts) to figure that out.

What I like about Disney is the way they do business!!! (or at least they way they used to do business) That ‘exceeding your expectations’ thing I’m always on about. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a theme park, water park, restaurant, mini golf or resort. They always (until recently) sprinkled it with liberal amounts of pixie dust that creates wonderful magic!! Back in the day (my kids saying) it was even more! Not only did they do that “Disney Touch” to everything offered, but the price was also substantially lower than you would expect! That was also part of the magic!! (for me at least)

So, YES, YES, and YES again!! I would stay there in a heartbeat!! Maybe not as often. Maybe not as obsessively. And lately that ‘urge’ would be waning in me even more than it is. But of course I would go!! Just the smell of the Polly is enough to do it for me. And if you throw in a couple of their patented CMs… Well…

… It just don’t get no better!!! :bounce:

[Suzan]

Raidermatt, where did you see Lilo & Stitch? We will be arriving on June 21 when the movie opens. I was hoping they would have the characters somewhere on site so our DS can get a photo-op. Thanks:)

[raidermatt]

Last things first...

Suzan, Lilo and Stitch were in the same area as the queue for the Animation tour. If you are in the courtyard and are walking into the same breezeway as the Animation tour, you should see some blue Stitch footprints on the ground that lead right to them.

I believe Saturday was sort of a "soft opening" for them. We only knew about it because a CM had told us on Thursday that they would be there on Saturday. He said he had just heard an hour before. (He said Sunday was supposed to be the first day)

So they probably aren't so hard to find now. By the 21st, I'm sure it won't be hard to find them at all...

Lord Baron-

Well, I don’t know how to not sound arrogant or at least superior. It’s kind of like telling your kids, “You’ll thank me for this someday.” But, and with all due respect and a twinkle in my eye, you didn’t see the wall when it was first built!!! WOW!!! It was pristine!!

True, but I experienced the original Disneyland during this same timeframe. I'm pretty sure that was a Disney park back then...;)

For me, its sort of like hearing the story from your kindly Grandfather, about how he "built his character by carrying that block of ice uphill both ways in a blizzard everyday after school, and how I've got it easy now." Ya love him, but you're not about to strap the block of ice to your back and fly to Minnesota looking for the hill that never has a downslope...

If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

Good question, Mr. Duck. For me, I'd say the answer would be I would visit subtantially less, and possibly not at all. Part of that is because I live in California, and that's a long way to go for only a resort/spa experience, no matter how magical the service.


Right now, my two favorite vacation destinations are WDW/DL and Hawaii. As wonderful as the Disney resorts are, I'd be hard-pressed to go there when Hawaii is roughly the same distance away, and has some wonderful resorts with great service and wonderful residents. I'm sure sitting at the Poly is great. I know walking the Boardwalk is... But sitting on a beach in Maui watching the sunset is still a rung up the ladder for me. Its the theme parks that take Disney to that level (and perhaps beyond...)

[airlarry!]

Dang it, Sir Baron, I thought this was one time we would disagree. ;) ;)

When you said you would go, I thought you were off your rocker. Then I thought, hmm, there is a burning desire for me to take the Disney Cruise (can't get my wife on a boat, however). Someday I will do it. There is no theme park on the DCL. So, ipso facto, I must want to go to a Disney Resort (hope that doesn't torture the hypo from The Duck) even without a theme park.

I want to do so, because friends have told me about the fantastic experience and service they had on the boats. Like a Disney vacation without the parks. Sounds great to me.

But, I have never even considered going to Vero or Hilton Head. Aren't these modern day versions of Sir Duck's hypothet? They are Disney resorts without the theme parks.

I will have to sit on the fence for a few days and think this very, very interesting question through. Hopefully soon, I will be brainwashed by Sir Baron and Sir Voice into the correct answer. ;)

[DVC-Landbaron]

True, but I experienced the original Disneyland during this same timeframe. I'm pretty sure that was a Disney park back then...Touché, Sir Raider!! Absolutely! So why doesn’t the dumbing down of the experience not bother you. And I’m not talking about the rides! Although that’s indicative of the decline. (I’ll address that issue in the other thread) I’m talking about the outrageous price hikes, the cheap trinkets being sold everywhere you turn, the non-response to the overwhelming transportation problems, the decorations over theming, those obnoxious huge icons, the graveyard in EPCOT, nothing at being done to World Showcase, painters in the afternoon, deferred maintenance (especially at Disneyland!) overbuilding (at times seemingly at random) just to make a quick buck, the Swan, the Dolphin, the shuttering of resorts, Pop Century, no more Mickey head butter, no more after dinner chocolates, opening ½ parks, DCA, shutting down rides with no replacements, characeter greeting areas (YUCK!), Surprise mornings, no more EE, shorter hours, closing the parks on an event, bring out the vacuums five minutes after closing, the Main Street Shopping Mall, merchandise all the same throughout the entire complex, no more fife and drum corps, other live entertainment seriously cut back, the mixed up theme that is now called Adventureland, etc.

Now, I typed this as fast as I could. It just kinda flowed. I’m sure if we put our minds to it, and took a little time, we can all think of many, many more examples of how they are diminishing the SHOW. Go on. Give it a try. It’s kinda fun, in a sad sort of way. (What’s harder is coming up with the little touches they’ve added lately. You know, like the things in the pervious paragraph, only in reverse.)

Now, I know that an awful lot of the previous is terribly subjective. YES!! Many things on your list of negatives may not bother me at all. But guess what? I can still understand that it is a negative even if it doesn’t affect me directly. To me it points toward the direction their philosophy is going. And something you call positive may not really ‘float my boat’. But again, you gotta give them credit for trying! The only thing is, I can’t think of any. Maybe it’s my sullen mood. Or maybe it’s because I seem to be repeating myself. I don’t know. Can you offer up any little gems? Some little Disney “touches” that Disney has added lately?

For me, its sort of like hearing the story from your kindly Grandfather, about how he "built his character by carrying that block of ice uphill both ways in a blizzard everyday after school, and how I've got it easy now." Ya love him, but you're not about to strap the block of ice to your back and fly to Minnesota looking for the hill that never has a downslope...Nothing to add. I just loved the way it was worded!! :)

Your Airness!
But, I have never even considered going to Vero or Hilton Head. Aren't these modern day versions of Sir Duck's hypothet? They are Disney resorts without the theme parks.I have been to Vero several times. It is very, very nice. Yes it is Disney. Everything you would expect. And my brother-in-law loves Hilton Head. Again, Disney in every way.

[Planogirl]

If there were NO THEME PARKS would you still go to the Disney Resorts, deluxes or moderates?

I had to think about this one for a moment because like Sir Baron, Disney's way of doing business is a big part of what attracts me. However, I am a passionate traveler and I really think that I would prefer to try a REAL Polynesian Resort or a REAL Wilderness Lodge. The Disney resorts would still be wonderful but like so many of the others, I'm not the type to sit by a pool. I want to go out and explore, I want to have a blast! And that's what the theme parks provide.

Somehow I can't see myself wandering around Orlando the whole time while on vacation and if I visited Universal I might as well stay there.

Interesting question!

[airlarry!]

I see your point, Sir Baron. And now I think I am understanding your position on the resorts a little more (this goes back to topics we discussed last year on the failures/successes of the themes of the resorts, remember?)

I realize now that I would travel to Orlando to stay at the Wilderness or Poly or even the Contemp (with the monorail of course headed to Pleasure Island instead). I have friends that go to Vegas every year or so, and none of us gamble. We go for the outlandish resorts, or we head to the Gulf Coast for the golf, and the tours, and we look for nice places to stay...if it is an adult only trip--if its the kids, we look for bargains ;)

So, while still understanding it is hypothetical and tough to answer, I think I would head to Lake Buena if I knew that there was a wonderfully themed place with Disney shows and hospitality and...magic.

But PopCentury? All-stars? I just can't see myself staying there just to stay there. Don't get me wrong. I've stayed there before, and I will again, but that has to do with balancing price of room versus cost of the whole Disney trip. But as a stand-alone? Puh-leaze. I want to hear from the regulars or new people---anyone at all---who would fly down to LBV and spend a week at the All-stars if there were no parks!

[DisneyKidds]

The Great Wall of China and WDW without theme parks. Amazing where these things go, and a lot of fun :).

Did you all ever consider that 99.999% of the worlds population would consider us certifiable if they read some of these discussions. But they don't 'get it' so who cares......

A few thoughts.

Mr Baron -

So it got me to thinking (a dangerous thing in the best of times). When I (or any old-timer) posts that things are radically different today from the philosophy that they used to employ, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you believe it? Do you totally disregard it?

I don't believe that the underlying 'philosophy' of WDW has changed radically. Radical is a strong word. I don't believe that the philosophy has gone from 'Let them eat cake' to 'Let them eat crap - they'll be happy with it'. I do, however, agree that the methods employed to try and maintain the goal of the underlying philosophy of providing a magical WDW experience (which you still get, and I'll stay away from the car hopping issue ;)) have changed somewhat. However, the world is a different place than it was in the 1970's, and such change should not be so surprising. Yes, 'cheaper' can be tagged to a number of additions and 'cost cutting' can be seen as motivation for some of the changes. However, 'cheaper' additions are better than none, and lest we not forget that there have been some incredible and expensive additions done very well. Saving money on some additions and instituting cost cutting measures are a fact of life. I'm sure I'm not the only stockholder that realizes the necessity. Yes, they can be annoying. However, I don't think they scratch the underlying magic.

There was a time when there were no chinks in the armor.

Did you borrow those rose colored spectacles from Mr. Franklin over in the American Adventure? I'm sure people had plenty of things to 'complain' about in the past - just no forum such as this to share in.

Many, many, many mistakes were made. Just mention the Garden Wings or The Golf Resort (which I still think was NOT a mistake) and you know what I mean. But those were mistakes!! Plain and simple. They were not motivated by greed or a spreadsheet.

Don't you think the Garden Wings were the ABSOLUTE cheapest way to add capacity to the CR? You agree they were a mistake. Could they have been done better had management at the time decided to spend a little more?

OK, so the Great Wall of Disney has a few chinks, but I don't see radical decay that threatens to collapse the whole enchilada.

The standard I measure by is the feeling I still get when I'm there, watching our kids (a new Disney generation) in wonder and amazement at all of what WDW is. I don't see any of that in jeopardy.

As for a WDW without theme parks, count me out. We are DVC owners. Each trip we spend more and more time enjoying the wonderful resorts. Heck, for the first time last trip we had an almost entirely 'resort' day. That trend will only continue. However, consider where WDW is - the middle of a swamp in a central Florida wasteland (sorry, not looking to offend any Floridians, but come on). There needs to be something else. Besides, most of the real magic is in the theme parks. As wonderful as the WDW resorts are, without the history, attractions, and magic in the parks, these resorts wouldn't compete for our vacation $$$$. There are so many other resorts that are just as wonderful, and they sit next to a beach, a historic site, a national landmark, in a different country, yada, yada, yada....

[Bob O]

I would agree with Planogirl. If their were no theme parks i would perfer to see the real thing rather than a version that never really existed which is at wdw.
I love the polyensian but im sure the real thing would be much different than the wdw version.
I would visit every now and then but couldnt see having the whole family travel across the country to stay in a resort hotel, their would have to be something else to entice my, be it a theme park or something historical that interests me. Now put a disney hotel in the Wash DC/Viriginia area where i could enjoy the resort and see things that interest me it would be worth it, bit not to just stay at a resort.
And i couldnt agree more with DVC"s list below of disney's problems. The dumbing down does bother me and im fearful it will get alot worse before it gets better! Take out one or two it may not be a big deal, but add them all together and it is IMHO.

[DisDuck]

I think I got my point across quite well. All the complaining about the Resorts not being what they once were seems to be made in relation to the Theme Parks. No matter how 'Disney' the resorts are if they were stand-alone not much different than any other resort-only destination.

Bottom line it is the THEME PARKS that attract the majority of us and will continue to do so. Therefore, AS or PC is just another means to stay onsite instead of off-site and yet make the experience cost effective for more people. Nothing wrong with that.

airlarry.. you would love the Disney Cruise but I would not compare to WDW resorts as the ship is not just a destination but takes you to other destinations. More like being at WDW on a floating deluxe that transports you from one theme park to another.

raider.. been to Maui (in my youth - 1984) and loved it. Yes, if choice was Poly with no Parks or Maui.. Maui wins hands-down.

[raidermatt]

Baron, that's quite a list. And I do understand that things affect people in different ways, so I don't discount something just becuase I didn't really care about it.

For instance, EE/Surprise mornings were not a benefit for us. We just don't get up and going that early. But I get the point that others loved it. However, there are gazillions of things that could be done that some people would love. Some things are going to be tried and taken back. Certainly that's better than just not trying them at all... To use an older example, Disneyland used to be closed on Mondays. True the company's resources were different, but clearly this was a financial decision that negatively impacted a lot of uneducated or time-limited Magic seekers.

But some of the things you mentioned as negatives are so subjective, they are positives to others. Merchandise and trinkets is great for some. I LIKE having a shop after many of the attractions. I don't have to buy, but sometimes I WANT to.

And some things are just inevitable. Shuttering resorts, for example. If Disneyland could be closed on Mondays, why can't a resort be temporarily closed if bookings are way down?

Character greeting areas? I LIKE knowing where we can find characters. While at Disneyland last August, we saw characters randomly interspersed through the park, mainly in the Plaza area. While admittedly there are some plusses to this, the drawbacks of actually trying to find a way for my son to actually meet these characters far outweighed the positives. People are just too rude. Maybe that wasn't always the case, but it sure is now.

Along those same lines, we found the Character Caravan to be a pleasant addition. It gave our son a chance to meet some characters in an air-conditioned, non-frenzied environment. This is a GOOD thing.

AK is a beautiful park, and it is only incomplete if you view it as the other three parks are viewed, i.e. a place for active attractions. AK has plenty to do, its just that a lot of it is experienced in a different way than at other parks. Maybe that was a mistake, but its not a lack of effort.

The castle show in MK is a wonderful touch and (I believe) fairly new.

FastPass is an AWESOME addition. I know, there's all kind of conspiracy theories about the true motivation, but the bottom line for the guest is that they get to experience more attractions aand avoid the frustration of long lines. (In someways, even more of a benefit than lengthening hours...)

AK CMs park our stroller for us. I know, its an efficiency thing for them, but it makes things easier for us, so its a nice touch.

DCA is a problem, but its easily avoided and I'm still hopeful they will learn from their mistake. It seems that some will only be satisfied with public floggings and tearful confessions, a la Tammy Fae Baker. I will wait until I see Flik's Fair and the new ToT for myself before saying whehter they are going in the right direction.

But again, that's not to say there aren't some things that bother me. The motorized sweepers are one of them. (I even saw one BEFORE closing). Delayed maintenance is another. And I agree that this makes the Wall less than pristine. But its just not enough to make me say the place is going down the tubes.

[Bstanley]

Hear, hear, RaiderMatt!

Spot on! Totally agree.

[Another Voice]

I had started writing all about how utterly wrong this whole “The Magic is a Wall” thought is. Entertainment isn’t a wall – entertainment is an illusion. It has no physical form to stand up against the elements. The Magic is only a thought, a wisp that’s ever changing and moving. A Wall is solid and firm, there are rules for its construction and formulas to ensure that it stands. There are no laws of engineering to guarantee that a piece of entertainment turns out “good”.

Then I thought, there is a rule that does work – one that seems to be at the center of a lot of the discussions here. It’s a rather simple rule, somewhat cynical, but always applicable:

No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it. Success is measured by what the third in the middle think – and how many people you get to show up in the first place.

I will be the first to admit that I do not see WDW in the same way that everyone else around here sees the place. I do not sit back and wonder how I see the show; I’ve spent far too many years worrying about how others see the show.

The real question for me is how hard is The Company now working to please the middle third and to get more people to the show? Yes, canceling early entry my not affect a lot of people (probably about a third) – but what about the people that it does affect. And are more people likely to show up with or without that “benefit”?

From my perspective, I don’t see WDW as suddenly not worth the visit, but I do see that the company is slackening its efforts to please the middle third. Worse, I see little effort put into convincing more people to show up. All I see are efforts to reduce the show until it comfortable fits the third who will like it no matter what.


P.S. – Disneyland was closed on Mondays and Tuesday during the off season up due to attendance levels. It was always considered a day park. Most of its attendance was local and for visitors it was a single stop on a larger tour of Southern California.

At WDW, the parks are considered the sole reason why people travel to the resort. They are the primary attraction and are the focal point of the guests’ visit. They were also considered the magnet to “stick” the guests on property for their entire stay. Arguing that because Disneyland was closed two days a week for four months decades ago somehow is akin to slashing current WDW park hours is really stretching it.

[DisneyKidds]

So before long the third of us in Car #1 will have the entire place to ourselves :). I guess hours won't be an issue at that point.

[PKS44]

DisneyKidds wrote:I don't believe that the underlying 'philosophy' of WDW has changed radically. Radical is a strong word. I don't believe that the philosophy has gone from 'Let them eat cake' to 'Let them eat crap - they'll be happy with it'. I do, however, agree that the methods employed to try and maintain the goal of the underlying philosophy of providing a magical WDW experience (which you still get, and I'll stay away from the car hopping issue ) have changed somewhat. However, the world is a different place than it was in the 1970's, and such change should not be so surprising. Yes, 'cheaper' can be tagged to a number of additions and 'cost cutting' can be seen as motivation for some of the changes. However, 'cheaper' additions are better than none, and lest we not forget that there have been some incredible and expensive additions done very well. Saving money on some additions and instituting cost cutting measures are a fact of life. I'm sure I'm not the only stockholder that realizes the necessity. Yes, they can be annoying. However, I don't think they scratch the underlying magic.


No, I think the goals have changed...and I think A-V is on to something with the analogy to smoke...the goal used to be to create this magical smoke...they made a fire and sure it produced heat (in this metaphor heat is the profits) but the goal was making the smoke...Now they want to see more heat from the fire and the goal is the financial bottom line..., so what if the fire does not make as much magical smoke---and this not only scratches the underlying magic eventually it kills it-if the goal of the workers is to make the company more money- you kill the spirit...the magic of working for Disney was that they empowered their employees to make magic not quotas...that seems changed...try to make the bottom line bigger by making that product cheaper and you alienate your customers but more importantly destroy the spirit of your workforce....it is a deadman's spiral--unhappy unmotivated soulless workers make lousy products that people won't buy--stockholders and mangement are too shortsighted if they are focused on the bottom line-the focus of long term successful companies is to make a great, quality product, the bottom takes care of itself in those situations..(American car companies have yet to learn this lesson, the Japanese car makers and theme park operators still seem to get it. That is why Toyota makes the # 1 car in America and why TokyoDisneySeas is a huge success and why Tokyo Disneyland is the most visited theme park in the world-and why American Disney park attendence is falling)--

Paul

[DVC-Landbaron]

Most of the time I quote everyone under the sun except my liege, Lord Voice. (except to say bravo, or ditto) But there are a couple of things in his most recent post that I felt needed a bit of exploring. Kind of “exploring the subtleties of car #3 passengers” (on PBS tonight!) And there’s a good possibility that it will be as boring as it sounds. If it is, I’m sorry. Just skip it and I’ll try not to do it again!!I had started writing all about how utterly wrong this whole “The Magic is a Wall” thought is. Entertainment isn’t a wallAV, I’m a little surprised. I don’t think we were talking about magic = ‘something physical’. At least I wasn’t (but it wouldn’t be the first time I totally missed the point of the conversation). I was simply waxing metaphorically. Comparing the Disney way of doing business (i.e. what they gave their patrons) in some sort of image. Some image that those car #1 people could readily see. A newly constructed wall, bricks (or stones) aligned perfectly, mortar joints equal and trim. Compared with today’s wall of China (of which we have all seen pictures). To me that is what Disney is. The wall is still standing (that’s why I still go) but it has seen better days!!!

Now what you say next is very, very interesting, especially to someone not in the business. And to me it makes perfect sense.No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it. Let’s take a closer look. This looks simply fascinating!! First you have, “No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it”. Hmmm. Sound the fine occupants of car #1!!! Next you have: “no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it”. Well, I’d say those are the people who have never even considered visiting this site! And then you say, “Success is measured by what the third in the middle think.” Sounds like the "right thinking" car #2 & 3 kind of people to me!!!! ;)I will be the first to admit that I do not see WDW in the same way that everyone else around here sees the place. I do not sit back and wonder how I see the show; I’ve spent far too many years worrying about how others see the show.That is why I respect your opinion!! It is why I am constantly amazed how you find that little nuance within a post that blew right past me (and apparently every other car #3 rider). But at the same time I am constantly baffled as to why our definition of “magic” never really jells. We seem to be on the same page on nearly every other issue regarding Disney, except this one. And that may be the reason why. You created it, or at least fussed about for years. I, on the other hand, never even considered it consciously. It just kinda washed over me, filling me with good thoughts and warm feelings. You, and your ilk, evidently did a great job. I wasn’t aware of all the hard work that went into a thing like Disney. I just liked it!!! I liked it a lot!!!

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain. And then the boards came along and nothing has been the same in my addled little ‘Disney’ brain again!!! So I think I understand why we look at ‘Magic” a little differently.

It reminds me of when I owned a comedy show. Standup comedians (some good and some bad) would go on 6 nights a week in my club. When I first entered the business I used to laugh and laugh at the good ones. But over time, night after night, for years, you lose your desire to laugh. You still have a great appreciation for a good joke, but you don’t laugh at the punch line anymore. Instead you widen your eyes a little and say, “Oh! Great line!!!” In full admiration! If you ever get a chance to hang around with stand up comedians just watch. The lines are flowing fast and furious. Each topping the other. But there’s hardly any laughter. Just judgment as to the “goodness” of the punch lines!! Anyway… I digress!!From my perspective, I don’t see WDW as suddenly not worth the visit, but I do see that the company is slackening its efforts to please the middle third. Worse, I see little effort put into convincing more people to show up. All I see are efforts to reduce the show until it comfortable fits the third who will like it no matter what. OK!!! That’s more like it!! We’re back in lockstep again!!!! :bounce: Arguing that because Disneyland was closed two days a week for four months decades ago somehow is akin to slashing current WDW park hours is really stretching it.Go easy on them. My lord!! For they have little else to hang their hat on!!!

[airlarry!]

After a good look at Lord Voice, Sir Baron, and M. Scoop's posts, ;) I now understand why we all have fun going 'round and 'round with every topic.

M. Scoop sees his place in the caravan as one who still enjoys going to WDW, still looks forward to his trips, and so must be in Car #1. If it gets to where he doesn't look forward to those trips, then he feels he will be moving to Car #3. He wonders why Car #3 people go...check this out:
It's just that, for us at least, the good we receive still overwhelmingly outweighs the bad. It's really that simple for us. ... And, today, we cannot imagine many other places where we can relax together and create living pictures than at WDW. ... If the team gave up and cashed it in like Huizenga did with the Marlins, well, yes, we would probably say goodbye.

But M. Scoop, the Car#3s, as we have patiently explained, still enjoy going to WDW. We still believe that the good outweighs the bad at WDW. We still plan our next trips with excitement and fervor. We still look forward to seeing those purple signs.

The difference is that we worry about the future. We worry that sometime down the road, one year, five years, 20 years, the good won't outweigh the bad. It's the Car 4 people that think the magic is gone forever, that the good doesn't outweigh the bad. Not us. We worry 'bout the changes we see and what they portend.

I hope this isn't too obvious. It seems that the Car #1s have a different perception of our love for Disney then the reality.

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?
I know where you are going Scoop with this take, and it seems to make sense, but remember that Disney is the kind of company that cannot sit on its laurels. It is not like a soft drink company that doesn't want to mess with the taste of the drink. It is an entertainment company that constantly has to *exceed* the previous bar. So there may well have been naysayers in 1980 or even 1960 talking about the 'bad' decisions or the loss of magic. But that isn't relevant, in that the company will always be scrutinized not on what it did yesterday, but on what it will do tomorrow.

[DisneyKidds]

Lets see if we can pull some of this together (or, lets see if I can make an entire post out of other people's posts :)).

And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain. And then the boards came along and nothing has been the same in my addled little ‘Disney’ brain again!!! So I think I understand why we look at ‘Magic” a little differently.

Always has been, always will be - and it still is just fun. You look at the 'Magic' differently, but that implies that it is still there, just as it was, only perceived in another way.

I, on the other hand, never even considered it consciously. It just kinda washed over me, filling me with good thoughts and warm feelings. You, and your ilk, evidently did a great job. I wasn’t aware of all the hard work that went into a thing like Disney. I just liked it!!! I liked it a lot!!!

And you still do - notwithstanding the fact that there are now avenues for Car #2's and 3's (be they 'right thinkers' or 'wrong thinkers') to get together and commiserate over the loss of this and that. But there have always been 'losses' of one sort or another.

I just don't see that with WDW. I have seen some misguided efforts but I don't think such misguided efforts are alone unique to this particular regime. I think it's happened to every regime. Therefore, today's concern should be put in perspective.

Is this is a unique ability (putting things in perspective) among the Car #1 passengers? No. The passengers in the other cars used to be able to do this, they have just gotten rusty.

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?
Probably no different than today.

Here, here!!!

We place incredible value on the time we get to spend together as a family on vacation. And, today, we cannot imagine many other places where we can relax together and create living pictures than at WDW.

And this is what we all do, regardless of what car we happen to be riding in. See, we all can get along :).

I submit this to be pondered regarding the various cars on the Disney highway and the strength of the Magic. All Car #2 and 3 passenegrs are really closet Car #1 folks who, deep in their hearts (which one day will grow like the Grinch's when things 'click') realize that the WDW magic is as strong, if not stronger than it ever has been. I say this because, despite the loss of this and that, there is nothing that will keep you away. I infer that this means the Magic you still experience when you are in the World is so strong that it makes all those other cares and concerns melt away. You have to admit, that is pretty strong Magic.

Yeah, things could be better. This can be said of most anything in the real world, not just the Disney World. However, that doesn't change the Magic.

[DisDuck]

Hey scoop leave some land for me and my crew (all 6 of us someday, the 3 wayward sheep will fall back into the fold).

I know where you are coming from scoop on vacation. I learned some interesting lessons these past 2 years. Life/Health is vunerable so enjoy each day. Therefore, WDW is my enjoyment. I go to be young again and I stay off-site (so I am not a total immersion guy).

To my Car#3's you are now sounding more like #2's, if I remember the definitions correctly.

[DisneyKidds]

I hate that when someone slips a post in when I'm trying to wax eloquently :(. But, airlarry, very good post, to which I say......

But that isn't relevant,

I don't agree.

So there may well have been naysayers in 1980 or even 1960 talking about the 'bad' decisions or the loss of magic.

These are the folks who were in Cars #2 and 3 while the current generation of Car #2 and 3 folks may have been happily driving along in Car #1. You know what, these naysayers worried about their beloved WDW 20 years in the future. Well, 20 years have come and gone. There may be a different set of passengers in each of the cars, but on the whole, traffic on the highway is no different than it was 20 years ago.

WDW has always been a business. You kid yourself if you think that any businesses bottom line isn't dollars and cents (yes, even Walt's beloved WDW - ok, I'm a blasphemer) There have always been happy people. There have always been discontent people. All that will never change. From the beginning of WDW time, the Magic has withstood all of this. This Car #1 passenger believes it always will. There will never be a time when the bad outweights the good. At some point in time there where Car #1 folks who believed this, but lost that ability to believe and jumped in another car. Why?, who knows.

Isn't it amazing how a WDW movie parellels this discussion in a way. Maybe, those car jumpers grew up, or maybe they just lost their ability to truely believe. I can't wait to get home and watch Peter Pan. Pixie Dust to all :).

[Bstanley]

The Magic...

You know when I drive up to the entrance of the HRH and walk inside I admire it as a hotel and enjoy the comforts and entertainments that it offers me, just as I do with IoA or USF.

But when I drive up to the entrance of AKL or the Polynesian, or DxL I'm not thinking about how nice the rooms are or how well landscaped the resort is - or whether the new Aladdin ride was provided by some third party - I am quite literally being transported back in time to a more childlike moment. As long as that feeling continues I will be a Disnoid.

Is the Magic in the attractions, the CMs, the resorts, the transportation system, or the management? I don't know but for SURE - The Magic is in the guest, particularly this guest.

It will take much clumsier management than the present characters making much clumsier decisions than they've been making to take my Magic away. Perhaps that's because I don't have to see them upclose and personal, perhaps it's because I am not familiar with the 'old ways', but for the past decade it's only gotten better for me.

[DisneyKidds]

Scoop - glad to be in the car :).

[raidermatt]

No matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to like it. And no matter what you do a third of the people that show up are going to hate it.

A clever little "rule", but unfortunately, flawed in many ways. Everybody has a breaking point, and everyone's breaking point is in a different place. There is no 1/3 that will show up no matter what you do. The population is dispersed along a curve, and you can break it into thirds if you want, but it won't do much good because the population within the thirds will have very different characteristics.

Different adds and takeaways will affect different people in the same 1/3 in different ways.

Car #1'ers are not blind to changes. Rather, we understand that things always do change, and we understand that the "good old days" are always remembered a little better than they really were. There's nothing wrong with that, its just a fact of human nature.

Lord Baron, you touched on something very important (at least in the context of this discussion...)
And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! I had never realized it before. It was just fun! But some (not much at all) but some of the ‘magic’ started to wear a little thin and I started to see the man behind the curtain.

I don't doubt that this is your perception. But even though some of us manage to remain more of a "kid at heart", we are still going to come to realizations as we grow older and experience things again and again. After all, I believed in Santa Claus at one time, but not anymore. Is that his fault? Is it my parents fault for somehow losing the desire to maintain the illusion? No. Its an inevitable fact that we are going to realize one day that there is more to these illusions.

Disney was always a business. But no kid is going to realize that. Not then, and not now. When the illusion is as strong as the Disney illusion, it will take longer to see it, but it will happen. An adult who is introduced to Disney may not see it right away, but they will.

But a car #1 person knows this. We know what defines the Magic for us, and we are still finding it. Yes, we now realize its a business, but we understand that it always was a business, and it was US who came to that realization.

Again, that's not to say that everything Disney does is Magic, or that current management couldn't be doing a better job. But in the big picture, what we looked for from Disney is still there.

Now, that doesn't mean that every car 3'er is a crusty old crumugeon harking back to the good ole days. If there have been many negative changes that were truly important to you, like Mickey butter and EE, and the additions like AK and FP mean less to you, then it makes perfect sense that you've moved back. But it should also be relatively easy to understand how somebody with different Magic "values" could still be hanging out up in car #1.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I don't doubt that this is your perception. But even though some of us manage to remain more of a "kid at heart", we are still going to come to realizations as we grow older and experience things again and again. After all, I believed in Santa Claus at one time, but not anymore. Is that his fault? Is it my parents fault for somehow losing the desire to maintain the illusion? No. Its an inevitable fact that we are going to realize one day that there is more to these illusions. An awful lot to quote, even for, but I felt I had to in order to make the point that I didn’t make in my clumsy first attempt. You see, everything in that paragraph I agree with. However, it is not what I was talking about. So, let me try again.

From my post:And then I started to see some very strange things. This magical place was a business!! The first time I visited WDW I was 17. Not quite a kid (Santa Clause type) But not quite an adult either. But I always knew they were a business. It just didn’t feel that way to me. They were always giving away free stuff!! Or so it seemed. Doing things they didn’t have to do, but because it was Disney, they just did it that way!! They could have bused everyone in from the campgrounds. But they didn’t. They provided boats as well. They could have presented you with a check at the end of the meal and said thank you, but they didn’t. They gave out little chocolates instead. They could have (and now do) have regular butter pads that every Denny’s in the world has, but they didn’t. They had Mickey shaped butter in virtually every restaurant on the grounds. They could have always done maintenance during the day, but the didn’t. They did all the maintenance at night. They could have swept you out of the park with those noisy vacuum cleaners as the park closed on an event, but they didn’t. They did that thing after everyone was gone. They could have had ordinary trashcans through the property, but the didn’t. They provided theme garbage!!! Do you get what I’m saying here?

And then one day, way back in 1998, they cut the hours. And that sent me over the edge. And all those other things, that I had been ‘looking past’ (like you are now) came back to me. The deferred maintenance. The extraordinary price increases. The Floridian!! The economy resorts. The missing butter, the missing chocolate. The shorter hours. The sound of the vacuums. The… wait… is that a man behind the frayed curtain?

Now do you get it? (if not I’ll be more than happy to try again) ;)

[DVC-Landbaron]

Now, that doesn't mean that every car 3'er is a crusty old crumugeon harking back to the good ole days. If there have been many negative changes that were truly important to you, like Mickey butter and EE, and the additions like AK and FP mean less to you, then it makes perfect sense that you've moved back. But it should also be relatively easy to understand how somebody with different Magic "values" could still be hanging out up in car #1.You would think so, but it isn’t. You see, I can understand you maybe not seeing it on your own. Maybe nothing really bothered you. But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!! I would think that it would almost be enough to put anyone in car #2. And a little more insight into the company (and the players) will enlighten everyone to the fact that Ei$ner’s values and “Disney philosophy” is almost diametrically opposed to Walt’s. If that ain’t enough to shove you firmly into car #3, then I don’t know what would.

I mean that’s the idea for the cars anyway. Not what’s there now, but the direction they are going. You can’t possibly want Ei$ner to leave and not be at least in car #2. Otherwise, why do you want him to leave? At least that’s the way I see it.

So I can see how someone that goes to Disney every once in a while would be a car #1 type. But no!! I can’t see at all how anyone who spends any time here can possible be a number 1 car rider. Sorry. I don’t get it!

[Another Voice]

The rule of the thirds is not meant for the audience, it’s meant for the creators. It is a character test, a chance to see how hard someone is willing to work get the approval of the “middle third” or if they are lazy and only willing to settle to the third that they were going to get anyway. It’s also a caution that trying to please everyone all the time is an impossible and foolish task.

The difference between “audience” and “creator” is much more than just a difference than perspective. The audience looks at something and asks “is this magical to me?” where the creator has to sit back and ask “will my audience find this magical enough?”. An audience never needs to worry about how the “magic” is produced. It’s either there or it isn’t. A creator obsesses about it because “how do I create magic” is a question that has no answer.

There are ideas, there are guesses and there are opinions. But there are no hard and fast rules. So when you see someone that’s been able to produce the effect consistently, you have to figure they must have been doing something right. That’s why when someone like Disney is able to articulate his philosophy people should take notice.

Any business needs to produce successful products. Disney is certainly not an exception. The complaints about places like California Adventure and the cancellation of early entry arise because it seems that The Company is intentionally ignoring the very guidelines and standards that made it so successful in the first place. That doesn’t mean change can’t happen. In fact it encourages change because standards lay out a clear path to what is “good” and what is “bad”. Confidence in business is a powerful tool, uncertainty is damaging.

My concern is not to suddenly wake up someday and realize the Santa Claus doesn’t exist. My real concern is a business concern, a fear that my children will wake up and not know that a Disney exists.

[DisneyKidds]

Did they add J, J-J, Jaded to the Aerosmith songs on RnR (a wonderful, unique, and Magical addition to WDW BTW) ;)?

Now Mr. Baron, I won't profess to have been around WDW as long as others, but 11 years is a long time, and predates your "crumbling of the world". I am not new to these boards either, but am somewhat new to this wonderful, insightful, and intelligent crew on the Debate, ooops Rumors and News board. I respect your opinions, but I respectfully disagree. You don't see how we can stay in Car #1 because WDW is not what it once was to you, not what you want it to be right now. But many of the things you mention as lost - I saw them go, but WDW is still the same to me, and still provides me the Magic I drink up enthusiastically. You were pushed over the edge. I'd like to think that I never will be. I suppose time will tell, but I'm not budging from Car #1.


You see, I can understand you maybe not seeing it on your own. Maybe nothing really bothered you. But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!! I would think that it would almost be enough to put anyone in car #2. And a little more insight into the company (and the players) will enlighten everyone to the fact that Ei$ner’s values and “Disney philosophy” is almost diametrically opposed to Walt’s. If that ain’t enough to shove you firmly into car #3, then I don’t know what would.

How noble of you (you are a Baron after all) to go out of your way to educate us. But just because we don't agree, or see things the way others do, doesn't mean we are ignorant. And as for the masses complaining so loudly - it takes bold individuals with strong beliefs in the Magic to stand against those masses.

You know what, when I spend time on the other boards I see an awful lot of wonder, amazement, and happiness regarding all that WDW is and has to offer. Sure, there are complaints - always have been and always will be - but perhaps the masses aren't so massive.

Yes things have changed. Sure Disney has made some mistakes. For sure the economy and world events have forced yet more changes. However, when you truely love something you accept it's good and bad. You weather the storms. Someday, most of the passengers in Cars #2 and 3 will find themselves fighting to get behind the wheel of Car #1 - just think of all the time you will have lost. Sure, you will have been in the World (because deep down you know the strength of the Magic endures) but will you have enjoyed the ride as much as you could have? Life is a journey, not a destination.

Go ahead, rejoin those of us happily riding along in Car#1 - you know you want to :).

[DVC-Landbaron]

Did they add J, J-J, Jaded to the Aerosmith songs on RnR (a wonderful, unique, and Magical addition to WDW BTW)Oh my! Another thing we disagree on. You must have missed my ramblings last year about RnR. But we’ll save that on for another thread. Too many going on at the moment anyway!Now Mr. Baron, I won't profess to have been around WDW as long as others, but 11 years is a long time, and predates your "crumbling of the world". Ahhh… no. It certainly does NOT predate my crumbling of the world. I’m afraid it goes back much, much farther. I know I don’t have the best writing style, but I usually make up for that in volume. I thought everyone on this board knew I was one of the few, even in car three, that places the date as the day Ei$ner took over. I am one of the few that thinks he’s been inept from day one. In my mind there is no Good-Mike turned Bad-Mike. He’s the same guy. No, not quite. He’s probably more arrogant now. But that’s about it. I’ll be glad to discuss it. Start a thread. It’s guaranteed to be a 12 pager, at least!! :bounce:

How noble of you (you are a Baron after all) to go out of your way to educate us. But just because we don't agree, or see things the way others do, doesn't mean we are ignorant. And as for the masses complaining so loudly - it takes bold individuals with strong beliefs in the Magic to stand against those masses.Whoops!! Did I come off as sounding arrogant? I must have to have pulled a reaction like this from you. Let me say here and now that I’m sorry for that. I did not mean to infer in the least that you were not intelligent (the Captain is another story;)). And I really didn’t mean to come off as pedantic and/or demeaning.

In fact, it wasn’t me I was referring to. It was all the other on this board that contribute to the discussion. AV for his take on the inside stuff, JeffJewell for his understanding of Disney standards, Gcurling for the number crunching and middle of the road type insight that we so desperately need at times. And even the Pirate, DisDuck, Scoop and lately yourself for, if nothing else, sparking ideas that I hadn’t considered before. Forcing me to think, in concrete and logical terms, about some things I had only vague feelings about until recently. I get an education every day on this Board. Don’t you?

So, I didn’t mean to come off as all knowing. I meant that with so much information here, especially about the personalities involved in the upper management of Disney, it is really hard for me to think that anyone wouldn’t be in car two, at least!! I mean, Pre$$ler!?!?! That’s got to make some of the hairs on the back of your neck stand up a little, doesn’t it? And then the next logical thought (to me at least) is “who picked him?” And that downright scares me!!! And I really can’t understand why it wouldn’t scare you too.However, when you truly love something you accept it's good and bad. I don’t think so!!! You’re talking about a wife or the kids. Not a business! And especially not a business that fails to deliver!!Someday, most of the passengers in Cars #2 and 3 will find themselves fighting to get behind the wheel of Car #1I can’t wait!! As soon as Disney indicates to me that they are going back to the Philosophy upon which they were founded, I’ll volunteer to push Car #1 to WDW – Uphill – Both ways!!!
Life is a journey, not a destination.You’re right!! Life is a journey. WDW is a destination!!!

[HB2K]

You know what, when I spend time on the other boards I see an awful lot of wonder, amazement, and happiness regarding all that WDW is and has to offer.
But what is the cause of the amazement, wonder & happiness? Is it anything at the parks that was built within the last 5 years? Are people in awe of DinoRama? Are they getting the warm & fuzzies over the reduced hours?

No.

They are raving about all of the stuff that was added either by Walt's original plans (i.e. Carosel, the castle, Main Street, and to a lesser extent EPCOT), or additions made to the park before Ei$ner earned his $ (Splash, TOT, etc).

That's my main problem with the parks. I can see what I enjoy. I can see what I don't. I can't see them adding anything with the scope of say TOT in the next 5-10 years....while I can see plenty of spinners & Primevil whirls. To me that's sad.

Mission:SPACE may help to pull me back in, but it seems like the advance press on that ride shows it is just that...a ride. Not an E Ticket attraction which tells a story from beginning to end.

[raidermatt]

Based on comments made in this thread, as well as the "Early Entry" thread, I think a review of the car descriptions is in order:

1- The Magic is as strong as ever.
2- The Magic has faded, but I am very optimistic.
3- The Magic is in serious jeopardy.
4- The Magic is lost. I'm not going back.

While car #3 does not directly address the current state of the Magic, I think its pretty clearly implied that the current state is worse than in car #2, which describes it as faded. So I think its very possible for somebody to think things are heading in the wrong direction, but have not taken the shine off of the Magic.

If I could define the top 100 things that were the most Magical for me based on my early visits to DL, and 95 are still there, with 2 or 3 others added, how can I logically say that the Magic has truly faded? If your "top 100" has been more severly impacted, I can easily understand your move to #3.

Speaking only for myself, I should probably define myself as a car 1.25'er... Yes, there are a few things that have happened that disturb me, however there are also some things that I am very happy with. The net of what has happened is probably a wash, but I do see how some of the roads that are being chosen can lead to bigger trouble. However, nothing that has happened is irreversable, and Disney has not gone so far down any of the "bad" paths for me to say the Magic has truly faded.


But anyone who hangs out on these boards for any length of time should certainly start to empathize with so many people, complaining so loudly, about so many things!!

Yes, I DO empathize! I'm sorry if I haven't made that clear. And in fact, the points made by the 2's and 3's on this board are the main reason why I would call myself a 1.25 vs a 1.00. And if I took your words (and AV's, Jewell's, etc) as gospel, I probably would move to 3. After all, you are all very good at naming the takeaways, and pointing out how things don't meet the Disney standard. HOWEVER, you are also quick to discount just about any adds that someone points out as an example of true magic.

If I say FP has enhanced the Magic for my family tremendously, I get an explanation of the 'true' motiviation behind it and why it really is a bad thing. Instead of waiting 1 hour+ for Splash Mountain, I wait 10 minutes and I'm told I shouldn't be happy about that.

Sorry. I don’t get it!

Yes! This is exactly how I feel when I'm told that the magic I feel in AK or on the Boardwalk is not really Magic, but merely my own misunderstanding of what Magic is.

[DisneyKidds]

My good Mr. Baron, the inherent problem with non living entities like these forums is that it is not always easy to make your compatriots see or feel sarcasm (and many other communication subtleties and ethno nonverbal forms of communication) I guess I could have used a well placed ;). Rest assured, no offense was taken to your post, and I did not read 'arrogance' (ok, maybe a little;)) I do appreciate what you, AV, Greg, Jeff, et. al. bring to the table, which is considerably more than I do, in fact. I hear what you all say. I understand what you all say. I appreciate what you all say. Heck, I agree with a lot of what you all say. But not everything, and certainly not the opinion on the Magic or ..... what was the original point of this thread - it escapes me now :crazy:.

Ahhh… no. It certainly does NOT predate my crumbling of the world.

OK, perhaps in your opinion the ground was undermined previously, but I still think 11 years predates most, if not all, of the symptoms you listed.

I don’t think so!!! You’re talking about a wife or the kids.

I kind of liken WDW to a problem child. Sure, he has some issues. Sure, it may take some time to work through them. Some are his fault, some aren't. However, I know he is a good kid and he will come around. I won't throw the baby out with the bath water.


As soon as Disney indicates to me that they are going back to the Philosophy

Can someone give me the complete Philosophy? AV? Not just the mom and apple pie parts related to customer service, but the whole Philosophy, including the unsexy nuts and bolts BUSINESS aspects (because business is about more than just customer service, although it is primary). That might aid in my education, which does go on everyday :).

HB2K - I think the jury is out on all of that. Nothing specific to make me say that, but you can't put your finger on Magic either.


You’re right!! Life is a journey. WDW is a destination!!!

Touche. I did open myself up for that one and should have known better :p - but you know better than to have read that literally ;).

[DisDuck]

A little history that maybe only the Baron remembers from long dead posts.

I come to Disney from a different root than many here. I grew up in NYC in the 50's only DL existed - no WDW. My love for Disney comes from the MMC, from Zorro, from the Wild-Life Adventure Stories. in other words from TV. So what were my expectations of Disney and did they exceed them. How do I know? I was only a duckling with a 'coonskin hat pretending to be Davy. Then in 1974 I saw MK (only park at the time) and I stepped into TV land. This was MY DISNEY coming alive right in front of me at the ripe old age of 25. I have been hooked ever since.

The MAGIC is there every time I go. My expectations are exceeded every time I go. Who cares about hours? In my 'good old days' there were ZEROS hours. Only what I saw on TV. I have learned that the 'good old days' are not always what they crack up to be. In my day, we were taught to hide under our desks and cover our eyes to protect from flying glass as the 'commie' nuked us. So today no 'commie' to nuke us just someone else will do it.. So the 'good old days' are still here.

Eisner is not the reason I go or don't go neither is Pressler. I go because it brings to life my Disney childhood. That is why I embaress my 17yo daughter every time we go. She becomes older than me. I am a 5 yo left alone in the candy store. Yummy, Yummy.

WDW would have to crumble in front of me and look like my local 6flags for me to lose the MAGIC and drop out of Car #1. The likelyhood of that happening in my lifetime is NIL. Even with visible maintenance crews or sweepers coming after you at closing that is better than no maintenance and no sweepers like at my local park.

So if there are no objections, I am taking over Car #1 and driving it to WDW June 22 to June 30th.

[DisneyKidds]

Here, here Duck :).

I go because it brings to life my Disney childhood. That is why I embaress my 17yo daughter every time we go. She becomes older than me. I am a 5 yo left alone in the candy store. Yummy, Yummy.

Now that is Magic - THE Magic. 'No, no, you can't take that away from me.'

[Bstanley]

Can I go?! Can I go?! Aw shucks, I've gotta wait...

You go, Duck!

[Another Voice]

And my history is from the other side. I grew up as a child at Disneyland and then went to work “behind the scenes”. I know from both observation and from experience that the old days were not always good. But neither are the present days.

I know that “magic” for an individual is different than “magic” for the entire audience. A single person will never loose their feelings, their emotional attachments, their memories of “the magic”. It’s solid and permanent. And yes, Disney does still hold a lot of “magic” for me too. The memories of family, of good times, of bad times, of tragic times, of wondrous times.

But I also know that creating the magic is neither easy nor permanent. Every time the projector starts or the gates of the park open a whole new audience shows up. The “magic” has to be created anew, without the benefits of memories or existing feelings. It is extremely difficult to do. Almost impossible. It can only be achieved by tremendous hard work that very few people are really capable of performing.

It is all too easy for most people just to the give up and to slack off. In my current working life I see far too much of it; the soulless products like ‘Scooby Doo’, the cynical scams like ‘Pearl Harbor’, the joyless rot of ‘The Scorpion King’. They are worse than garbage; they are theft of time, talent, and the audience’s trust. But like any scam, there’s always a chance to make money. Most people in the industry are in it for the bucks and not to create.

Untimely it is a short sighted and futile attempt. True quality wins out in the end. ‘Snow White’ still makes money after seventy-five years, ‘Fantasia’ is still in active release and has been shown somewhere on earth at least once a day since 1940. Disneyland is still going strong at fifty years. Real magic, not the marketing kind, pays for itself.

I am critical of Disney at present not because the magic has disappeared overnight, but because I no longer see them striving to create. Instead, I see far too many examples of them simply giving up and going for the money, and I see far too few attempts to honestly make something that will last, to make new “magic” instead of plundering what already exists. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding that they strive, but there is everything wrong with passively accepting their unwillingness to try.

While “magic” is certainly created within an individual, it can not be measured just by the individual. True “magic” can only be measured by longevity, by its ability to form inside new people, in new generations. That is a fragile and painstaking task that is not achieved by profit margins or compromises or lowered expectations.

Magic is only created by pure imagination and a lot of hard work.

[DisneyKidds]

True “magic” can only be measured by longevity, by its ability to form inside new people, in new generations.

And I submit that this is happening, in droves. As we were riding home in the car tonight I posed the carpool poll to the DW. We had some short discussion about it, and these thought provoking threads, and what do I hear from out of the darkness of the back seat......

'Daddy, take us back to Disney World' (GAWD - she is soooooo cute :))

She IS a new Disney generation. The “magic” has BEEN created anew, without the benefits of memories or existing feelings. And it is not due to any 'plundering' of what already exists. Some of her favorite stuff is post Walt, post 70's, post 80's, and post 90's.

And you know what, watching that Magic created anew within our little new people only adds a new dimension to my individual magic.

Who is driving Car #1 right now? Need a break? I feel the need to get out of the back seat and behind the wheel :bounce: .

[space42]

Did I mention how much I love this place??

Something that must also be said. All cars are still headed to WDW!!!!! (except for car #4)


Something Scoop said earlier I just had to reply to!

Aloud I wonder what these boards would have been like had this technology existed on in 1980?
Probably no different than today.


That is a good question. In 1980, I was 9 years old. Already making regular trips to WDW since it opened (living in FL has some advantages). Ok, lets set the wayback machine to 1980.
Lets see.. The Magic Kingdom is also 9 years old. We have had two major E-Ticket expansions already (Pirates 1973, Space Mountain 1975). And whats this construction they are finishing at the end of Frontierland? ANOTHER E-Ticket? ALREADY! Wow, this one looks way cool.. as Big Thunder Mountain looms in the distance. I can't wait to ride this one... have to come back next year again :)
Lets visit Main Street... oh, I think I'll spend my allowance at the Main Street magic shop.. ohh, I even have change for the penny arcade!
Oh, whats this??? the EPCOT preview center!! WOW, a whole new Disney Park is getting buit!! Oh, they are expanding the monorail system too??? What? I can already ride it? Lets take a ride on the new monorail expansion..... WOW, 2 more years to wait to visit EPCOT. Can't wait....... Boy, the 1980s sure were an optimistic time for WDW.


Ok, back to 2002.... Looking back to 1980, I was probably on the hood of Car#1. Shoot, I would have pushed the thing to WDW if I had to!! (couldn't drive yet)
I'm sure there were some people that could have found things to complain about (there always will be). I would also bet that you would be hard pressed to find some people to join a Car#3 carpool in 1980 though. Magic faded? I don't think so. It was overflowing.. so much so, that the wave of magic didn't crest until the mid 1990's

ps. thanks Scoop for the thought provoking question :bounce:

[DisneyKidds]

Space - help me get things straight so I understand where you ride and what you think. You are in Car #3. I gather you are saying that the Magic didn't start fading for you until that wave crested in the mid 90's, yes?

You are so right. The 80's were before my time at WDW, but I do realize that it was a time of exponential growth. Growth may have slowed down through the mid 90's (but to be honest, a heck of a lot has been added in that time) - but has continued, maybe not the things everyone wants, but it continues (yeah, yeah - go on about cookie cutter carny cheapos, you know you can't help yourself :(). I guess I just can't understand (and maybe you aren't saying this) how a slowdown in growth can be equated to a fade in the Magic. Fact of the matter is, it would be impossible for WDW, or any theme park destination, to continue to grow at the rate WDW was in the 80's. Never could happen. Not feasable. But just because it didn't means the Magic wasn't the same anymore? I can't buy that one - but you are more than happy to keep trying to sell it :).

[space42]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Space - help me get things straight so I understand where you ride and what you think. You are in Car #3. I gather you are saying that the Magic didn't start fading for you until that wave crested in the mid 90's, yes?

You are so right. The 80's were before my time at WDW, but I do realize that it was a time of exponential growth. Growth may have slowed down through the mid 90's (but to be honest, a heck of a lot has been added in that time) - but has continued, maybe not the things everyone wants, but it continues (yeah, yeah - go on about cookie cutter carny cheapos, you know you can't help yourself :(). I guess I just can't understand (and maybe you aren't saying this) how a slowdown in growth can be equated to a fade in the Magic. Fact of the matter is, it would be impossible for WDW, or any theme park destination, to continue to grow at the rate WDW was in the 80's. Never could happen. Not feasable. But just because it didn't means the Magic wasn't the same anymore? I can't buy that one - but you are more than happy to keep trying to sell it :).

I am not much of a debater (I'll leave that to the Barron's and the Scoop's). I was simply responding to Scoop's crazy claim that we'd be having these same type of discussions in 1980!!!

Yes, I am in Car#3. My move from Car#1 to #3 has NOTHING to do with a slowdown in groth at WDW. It has more to do with the shutting of attractions with no replacements (20k, skyway, keelboats, Timekeeper and COP being seasonal {since when does the season end in June anyway}, etc). Replacing attractions with less than equal replacements (see most of futureworld for examples) 1/2 day Parks (Studios, AK, DCA). Shortening of hours since 1998 then selling them back to you (E-Ride night)!!! .. I'll stop there.. I wont get into cheap and tacky.. thats already been hashed to death on this board already (and I 've made my point about it several times ).

All I hear now is that Disney cannot afford to do things like they used to. I would like to see hard evidence that all of the things they have cut have actually made them more profitable then in years past.

[DisneyKidds]

Space - I don' t think Scoop's claim is that crazy. However, he and I are in the same car ;). Thanks for the insight :).

[DisDuck]

space.. Studios a 1/2 day park then what is Epcot. Not everyone wants to travel thru the World Showcase unless you are a shopper. Only Mexico & Norway have true rides. FutureWorld can be done by 1pm. So I guess only MK is a full-day park.

[space42]

Originally posted by DisDuck
space.. Studios a 1/2 day park then what is Epcot. Not everyone wants to travel thru the World Showcase unless you are a shopper. Only Mexico & Norway have true rides. FutureWorld can be done by 1pm. So I guess only MK is a full-day park.

It is now that they took all of the 15 minute long audio animatronic extravaganza type attractions out of Future World. :p

[HB2K]

'Daddy, take us back to Disney World' (GAWD - she is soooooo cute )
Bet she wasn't saying "Daddy take me back to DinoRama". Or Aladdin, or the Hat.
Magic faded? I don't think so. It was overflowing.. so much so, that the wave of magic didn't crest until the mid 1990's
Yeah, the time before Eisner took over was a boffo time for the Disney company. The magic was so abundant the company almost got sold off and broken into pieces....Disney didn't catch it's second wind until the "Disney Decade"...

[DisneyKidds]

Well actually, she has asked specifically about Triceratops and Aladdin. While these rides may not appeal to everyone and may not be E-ticket, they do have appeal. Blame it all on Damnbo. Who cares if they are cheap and somewhat unoriginal, they do provide excitement for the toddler and under set. I don't think Disney added these to appeal to the masses. You would be correct in saying they should add more that appeals to the masses (better than PW), but these rides aren't failures and don't lead me to rue the day the evil Eisner and his gang took over.

[HB2K]

Well actually, she has asked specifically about Triceratops and Aladdin
So you think 20-30 years from now she'll daydream about the time Daddy took her to ride the spinning Dinosaurs?

[space42]

Yeah, the time before Eisner took over was a boffo time for the Disney company. The magic was so abundant the company almost got sold off and broken into pieces....Disney didn't catch it's second wind until the "Disney Decade"...


Well, I must admit.. I am ignorant to what Disney management was going through in the early 80's (besides what I have read here). However terrible things were then, you certainly could not see it in the theme park(s) at WDW (unlike now were the companys problems slap you right in the face as you enter Dinorama). As mentioned in my 1980 wayback machine post, the early 80's was a very exciting time to be at WDW. 3 major E-Tickets added to the MK, EPCOT getting built, Monorail expansion, etc.. Perhaps the parks would have been better off if Disney was split in pieces? I really don't know the answer, but could things really be worse than they are right now?

[Bstanley]

The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney. And indeed it ended up with several 'greenmail/takeover' attempts that would have probably broken up (destroyed) the company if they had been successful...

And there were some parallels in the creation of new rides and parks. When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day park - and what it did have required sponsor's money. Big Thunder Mesa (Name?) got pushed out and then forgotten. A half-length Pirates got built. The 'Thai' resort got forgotten (What's that big square of land for daddy? - where the Grand FLoridian is now). Tokyo Disneyland had to be funded by the OLC. etc. etc.

The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

[space42]

The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney.

I know this has been stated before.. but I still disagree that this was not a successful time for Disney. Perhaps miss-managed, but not unsuccessful.

And there were some parallels in the creation of new rides and parks. When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day park

I suppose this is personal preference again. However, can you compare the EPCOT of 1983 (after the opening of JII and Horizons) with AK of 1999 (after Asia opened)? Futureworld alone took me 4-5 hours to see! Each pavilion in FW was AT LEAST a one hour experience (even if you had minimal waits.. thank Walt for omnimover rides)! FW alone had double the amount of rides that AK has! Not counting the shows/movies/rides in World Showcase. Again, personal preference if you wanted to see each of these.. but you cannot deny the numbers.


Big Thunder Mesa (Name?) got pushed out and then forgotten.

True, but we did still get an E-Ticket out of the idea (Big Thunder Mountain). This would be like getting the dragon coaster at AK without the rest of BK. The public (at least myself and friends/family) had no idea that Big Thunder was part of a bigger plan. There were NO signs of budget cuts or that it was a part of something bigger. Unlike AK (hey, whats that dragon doing in the logo?)

A half-length Pirates got built

Again, transparent to most of the public. No signs of budget cuts or a second rate attraction. Even though shorter, it still is a first rate E-Ticket all the way! I admit until I saw video on the internet of Pirates in Disneyland, I had no idea that our version was shorter than the original(missing about 5 minutes of caves and darkness). I wouldn't call it 1/2 length though.

The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.

Agreed! Except for Tron! ;)

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

If those are the things that were so bad in the 70's / early 80's than the current situation is MUCH worse than it appears!

[Another Voice]

Yet during these dark ages, all of the other movie studios in Hollywood either went bankrupted or were bought out. Only Disney survived untouched. Maybe there was something good going on there to some degree. Of course most people consider the Bass Brothers as the corporate raiders that succeeded were all the others had failed. They got in, took their money, and left while the hired help runs off with the silverware.

EPCOT Center was seen as many things when it first opened, but NONE of them were “a half day park”. How many people here actually saw the place in 1982 and does anyone have any quote that this was a prevailing opinion? Or is this just some sorry attempt to make Animal Kingdom look better?

Yep, the Thai resort got forgotten, along with Persian. But I have yet to see Michael’s Disney Decade (and publicly announced) Magic Kingdom Suites, The Mediterranean, or Buffalo Junction Resort listed for reservations. If we want to start bashing each regime for unbuilt plans you’re in for a mightily long list.

Half scale Pirates; yes that was a big mistake. They knew it at the time and went ahead anyway – the first clear sign that Card and Ron didn’t really get it. But in hind sight, I’d much rather have half-scaled single attractions rather than half-scale parks. And even the stupid people managed to turn out ‘Space Mountain’, ‘Splash Mountain’ and all the attractions in EPCOT Center. Funny, there’s not a single decorated traveling carnival ride in the bunch.

The Tokyo Disneyland deal, I suppose you’re talking about what the financial arrangement that Michael now calls “the blueprint for all future parks”? The deal for Disneyland Hong Kong, the deal they tried to swing with Lego for Legoland WDW, the fact that Disney controls less of Disneyland Paris than the Saudi Royal Family does, or all those leased and sold operations that funded California Adventure? Gee, wasn’t all of Dinosaurland in Animal Kingdom bought and paid for by McDonalds?

I could go on because history really can be fun. But I’m tired from a long flight and I’ll stop. But ask yourself the following question.

Look at the resource the “bad old days” people had and what they built. Now look at the resources available the current “bright shinning wonder” guys.

Which crowd gave the public the most?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hold the phone a minute, partner!! Let’s take a real good look at exactly what you posted there. First off: The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney.Not a successful time? All the way from 1971 to 1984? Are you sure about that time frame? I don’t know about that. I would think that it was a tremendous time for the company! Especially the parks! 1971 saw WDW open to rave reviews. Within a few years they were literally closing the gates many, many times during the summer months because they had reached capacity. They even extended normal summer hours from midnight to 1:00 in the morning (Main Street closing at two). Their resorts were booked solid two (or more) years into the future. And 1981 saw the opening of EPCOT Center. And those ten years (out of the 13 you mentioned) were not successful? I don’t know how you measure success, but it’s apparently way, way different than mine!!!

Now if you tell me that the Walker/Miller era didn’t quite understand the assets that they had, or that they could have/should have charged more, built more, maybe I’ll go along with that. Were they a little too conservative? Yes, I might have to agree with you. But not successful? No way!!And indeed it ended up with several 'greenmail/takeover' attempts that would have probably broken up (destroyed) the company if they had been successful...My good friend, they were successful! Don’t kid yourself, they were most definitely taken over. They were taken over from within. And from that very first day, way back in 1984, the philosophical business model of Disney changed! Radically! And we are now seeing the fruits of that philosophy. And I for one, am disappointed at the outcome. Aren’t you? When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day parkOH MY GOD!!! Were you there back in 1981/’82? Did you see it for yourself? I don’t think anyone has ever postulated that EPCOT could have been a half-day park. In fact, I use EPCOT as an example of the way a park should open! Full. Complete. So much to do and see that you couldn’t possibly do it in just one day! Sure they added on since, but that just makes it a two day park (of course that was before they started paring down and replacing long immersive attractions for relatively short rides).
The 'Thai' resort got forgotten (What's that big square of land for daddy? - where the Grand Floridian is now). Well, the actual plan called for a Venetian, Asian, and Persian. Somewhere along the line a Mediterranean was introduced. And I hold Card Walker and Ron Miller responsible for not building anything. I blame Ei$ner for not building things correctly! He should be held much more accountable. When the decision was made to build, and all the political ramification considered and dealt with, he should have installed the original plan. But of course he didn’t! Instead we were introduced to the non-Disney caste system of resorts, which pulls in a lot of money, but so blurred the Disney standard that it is almost unrecognizable today!!

So Mikey!! Mr. Big Cheese! Now that Bstanley has brought it up I have a question for you!! What happened to the Persian, Asian, and Venetian/Mediterranean? Why all western hemisphere concepts? Were the old plans scraped simply because they were thought of under the old regime? One has to wonder!!!!Tokyo Disneyland had to be funded by the OLC. etc. etcHad to be funded? Had to be funded? It was a choice!! Plain and simple! There was no “had to” involved!The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.Well!! Something we can agree on!!
So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today?Oh heaven help us, I hope we can’t!!! Instead I’d much rather get someone who “gets it”! That’d be nice for a change!! Don’t you think so?

[airlarry!]

I was there just after the opening of Epcot.

I know a half-day park. And senator, Epcot was no half-day park.

Epcot center was in fact a two-day park for the normal family of two adults and two kids on their first trip to Disney. It extended the resort visit effectively to four days...one at MK, two at Epcot, and one last at MK to finish up.

Epcot was two days because of the length of the shows, the interactive nature of the exhibits in some of the pavilians, and mainly, for the sheer *size* of the place. Remember, think about this park from the perspective of a newcomer. As a newcomer, one could cover MGM in about 3/4 of a day when it first opened, (not as a repeat visitor looking for every nook and cranny) and the same for AK.

Take it from personal experience, Epcot was a wear-you-down, make-the-kids-fussy, spin-around-and-marvel-how-big-this-concrete-and-asphalt-park-was, two day park.

[space42]

Take it from personal experience, Epcot was a wear-you-down, make-the-kids-fussy, spin-around-and-marvel-how-big-this-concrete-and-asphalt-park-was, two day park

I'm glad someone else backed me up on the EPCOT 1/2 day park thing. I agree, it was more like a two day park.

In fact, a popular saying at that time was that EPCOT stood for "Every Person Comes Out Tired".

We definitly dont have that problem with Animal Kingdom...

[PKS44]

Did EPCOT in March 1984 as a college commando-from opening to closing and barely got to thru the main things we wanted to do-the idea that it was a 1/2 day park is completely false, misleading-wrong. That was the last full park Disney built-by Eisner's own assessment--his "new" plan is to underbuild in the beginning-and grow...but the public is not buying it and the attendence at his little Nahtazoo keeps falling...

Paul

[DisneyKidds]

I am going to try and refrain from quoting too much here. Suffice to say, I agree with Bstanley. He is trying to make one of the same points I have been (without much success on my part I might add). 20 years ago there were folks who thought that the Disney management team was doing everything right, some everything wrong, some in between. Even as we look back on it today there are people who fit each category. Fast forward to today and the same thing is happening. 20 years ago there were Car #3 people who worried that in 20 years Disney might be gone, yet here we are. Even the Car #3 folks today that think the '71 to '84 period was successful point out that various things were not followed through on, not implemented as originally planned, and mistakes were made. My, what the Car #3 people at the time must have been saying. I'm sure the 'questionable' decisions back then weren't transparent to everyone.

I know this has been stated before.. but I still disagree that this was not a successful time for Disney. Perhaps miss-managed, but not unsuccessful.

Ok, I had to quote, but this is a great sentence. Fast forward to 2022. I'd place any wager that an awful lot of people will be looking back then saying this about the 'Ei$ner' regime.

I am going to attempt to bow out of the AK, Epcot, half day park revolving door - I can just see it going round and round (but I suspect I will be sucked back in). All I will say is this. There will be people that can make good arguments that AK is a half day park FOR THEM. There will be people that can make good arguments that Epcot is a half day park FOR THEM. I don't believe anyone can make a good argument that either is a half day park FOR EVERYONE. So long as there is one person who chooses to see and do everything in the AK and spends at least a day there (and it really would be more like a day and a half to do it all) it is not a half day park. You can make all the arguments you want that it is a business failure, but that doesn't make it a half day park.

HB2K....

So you think 20-30 years from now she'll daydream about the time Daddy took her to ride the spinning Dinosaurs?

As much as she does about the flying Elephants, and you know how people feel about them - not everyone mind you, but it has become a Disney classic.

[airlarry!]

M. DisneyKidds,

I appreciate your efforts. I really do. But the arguments in favor of Epcot being a 1/2 day park and relating that to other parks will not work.

They fly in the face of recent announcements by the Disney management. Read Eisner's biography, "Work in Progre$$." Read some of those articles in earlier posts that the new Disney model is to intentionally build them small and add to them later (I have an addendum to this...build them small, and only add to them later if needed--if Disneyland Hong Kong is successful, it may be years--I mean *years*--before they get any of the biggies.)

Here is the difference. Ei$ner questions why anyone would build an Epcot anymore. Why build something that big and make it hard to return profits, when he thinks you can build a DCA or an AK for less and sit back and count de monet.

Please don't think I'm knocking AK here. I love Animal Kingdom. But Epcot was a complete park that needed tune-ups and the occassional addition to keep the park fresh.

[HB2K]

As much as she does about the flying Elephants, and you know how people feel about them - not everyone mind you, but it has become a Disney classic.
The difference is Dumbo has a story & purpose. You get to fly in the flying elephant. I was unaware of the fairy tale which dinosaurs fly.

And that being said, how does she differenciate between all of the spinners?

[Bstanley]

LOL!

Sorry boys and girls - obviously we have a bunch of EPCOT lovers here... Well I love it too, so :-P

Ok a few facts to set the record straight:

I was not at EPCOT until '91 (the first year I visited a Disney park). I was basically regurgitating a section of the book "Prince of the Magic Kingdom" referring to the fact that half of the attractions in FutureWorld weren't open when the park opened, and that most of the World Showcase didn't have any attractions at all (still don't actually).

And as to whether it was 'mis-managed' or 'unsuccessful' or what, the facts were that profits were thin, the stock was seriously undervalued, the financial sharks smelled the blood and started to attack and if Roy Jr and FW (yes that's right, according to the books Roy's lawyer brought FW into it first) hadn't interested the Bass boys in the potential and mounted a friendly(?) takeover bid Saul Steinberg would probably have bought it and 'dismembered it' (his words). I for one don't want to get back into the "are we better now than then, blah, blah, blah?".

Also - I wasn't trying to build up the big ME (although I find it amusing that any discussion here always manages to drag him in - kinda like Clinton he's easy to demonize :-). I just see similar parallels in the situation of 'the Company' now as then and I repeat:

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

[DisneyKidds]

airlarry....

But the arguments in favor of Epcot being a 1/2 day park and relating that to other parks will not work.

Of course not. Epcot is not a half day park and I wouldn't be foolish enough to argue as such. But I still maintain that no park within WDW is a half day park if you do anything close to everything offered. Perhaps we have to stop saying half day park and talk about it in terms that Epcot is a more complete park, or AK is not as complete a park as the others. You might get much fewer arguments there. But half day parks? Please.

HB2K....

The difference is Dumbo has a story & purpose. You get to fly in the flying elephant. I was unaware of the fairy tale which dinosaurs fly.

I know, I know (and knew someone would go there). Dumbo ties into the movie and therefore has a purpose. However, while that makes it special, it isn't the only reason it it is popular. Our DD has yet to see the movie, but she is as taken with Dumbo as anyone else. Go ahead, pick on the dinosaurs, it is the place you can make a point. But you lumped Triceratops and Aladdin together and I assume you continue to speak regarding both as you further your point. Aladdin has just as much a story and purpose as Dumbo, but it is criticized because it is cheap, carny and unoriginal. You know what, only the unoriginal part can't be said about Dumbo. I don't see anything wrong with giving people more of something that has proven to be so popular.

Ok, where is Baron to say 'Ah Ha! Exactly!! You've got it!! It is popular so it makes them money, and all Disney wants to do is make money as opposed to give us new and original entertainment'. Am I doing better Baron?

I, for one, enjoy having a few more rides that my young children can enjoy. I think that additions like those are a good thing, so long as they aren't the only additions. Unless, that is, they are minor additions to an already 'complete' park - then it might be ok to be the only addition. Yes, Triceratops was reaching and has no tie in, other than to Dino Land. However, we enjoy having the ride available. What theme would you have had them used if they made a decision that a spinner would be a nice addition to provide another ride and some more entertainment value for the kiddies?

p.s. Baron, you can hardly say these rides were an increase the bottom line decision. Perhaps a cheap way to add something, but they added something to enhance the experience of a slice of the visiting public, not make more money.

[DisneyFanGuy]

Just a quickie. I visited Epcot in 1982 with two 21 year old friends. We spent two days there and didn't see or do everything. 1/2 day? It's maybe a 1/2 day if you "drink your way around the world showcase" and need to nap. I have done that too, but that's another story............

[space42]

Wow, what a great thread! Thanks again to the moderators for putting up wtih this :)

One point from Bstanley..
was not at EPCOT until '91 (the first year I visited a Disney park). I was basically regurgitating a section of the book "Prince of the Magic Kingdom" referring to the fact that half of the attractions in FutureWorld weren't open when the park opened, and that most of the World Showcase didn't have any attractions at all (still don't actually).

The EPCOT of '91 was not really that different than the EPCOT of '83. Lets see.. The Living Seas were built in 1989 as was the Wonders of Life. The rest was basicly the same as '83 (the reason I keep using '83 was that two of the big FW attractions opened a year after the park opened in '82 JII and Horizons) World Showcase also added Norway in 1988.

One more point about AK. I really do love AK, I just wish there was more of it.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ok, where is Baron to say 'Ah Ha! Exactly!! You've got it!! It is popular so it makes them money, and all Disney wants to do is make money as opposed to give us new and original entertainment'. Am I doing better Baron?Much! Before long you’ll be riding shotgun with me!!!p.s. Baron, you can hardly say these rides were an increase the bottom line decision. Perhaps a cheap way to add something, but they added something to enhance the experience of a slice of the visiting public, not make more money.It’s one in the same. They found that the numbers weren’t right for AK. So they sent out their minions to do some customer surveys. And do you know what the surveys said? That’s right! NOT ENOUGH TO DO!!! Especially for the kids. So how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience? Give them something more to do, of course!!! So they dusted off the plans for Beastly Kingdom and even drew up an Australian and South American section…. Oh! No! Wait! That was in the dream I had!! What they really did was give us Dino-rama!! What innovators!!! Now that’s the kind of magic Walt provided!!

[DisneyKidds]

It seems that no matter what car anyone is in, they agree Dino Rama was a mistake. Even this devoted Car #1 fan. But can we stop obsessing over that particular mistake? And you know what, even though it was a mistake it can still be enjoyable. Some day we will get Beastly Kingdom (it is hard to be patient, especially when we should have had it to begin with), but in the mean time can we stop bashing everything that comes out that isn't BK ;).

p.s. Was Aladdin added because the MK numbers weren't 'right'?

[Captain Crook]

I like Dino-Rama just fine. PW has been the most requested ride by my kids over the last two visits & they both (9 &13) agree it's a lot of fun. The 13 yo, btw, also has been to IOA and likes the coasters', so there is no exclusivity or favoritism factor for her. She just thinks the ride is a blast & thinks we're 'geeks' for worrying about it. These are memories in the making that will be every bit as memorable as Mad Tea Cups for example and the Disney tie in is the movie Dinosaur, which again, the Kids really enjoy...

That said would I have liked more? Heck yeah. I'm on record as being mad at Scoop for reminding me that they could have put this ride inside and really 'wowed' it up a notch or two...But this is what we received and the fact is it was given because the smaller kids needed more to do. It does that and in a bright, colorful & fanciful way.

Oh Landbaron...so how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience?
Who really hates AK? They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly thats because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses. AK offers so much and in such a unique way that I am truely sadened at the inability of people to accept it without a triple loop roller coaster. The quality of what was given is exceptional and the 'show' aspect of the Park is just...Disney.

In fact with the addition of D-R I no longer hope for a full scale, excitement oriented BK. I still want it (BK) and the proposed multiple launch coaster (inside & themed) would be my perfect dream come true...But I'll tell you what, if as AV has alluded to is corect, and what AK actually receives is a new land (Australia) with a Soarin' clone and native Austraian theming & wildlife I'll be quite happy with the state of AK...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DisneyKidds]

Don't worry 'Crook, we're on the same page :D . I like DinoRama too, for what it offers, but agree it could have been done 'better' had Disney gone for the :earseek: WOW :earseek: factor. So to clarify, I guess I would say the manner in which they chose to implement DinoRama could be considered a mistake, but DinoRama itself isn't. Did that make the mud any clearer?

[Galahad]

Who really hates AK?

We are having a big family rerunion this week and having the whole crew in to OKW. None have been to WDW. DW is usually solidly in Car #1 with me said "we don't want to take them to AK, that's the worst park". This was incredible to me because we love AK ourselves. So there is even the perception among those who like AK that everyone else doesn't (kind of like "the schools are terrible but our school is OK").

[DVC-Landbaron]

It seems that no matter what car anyone is in, they agree Dino Rama was a mistake. Even this devoted Car #1 fan. But can we stop obsessing over that particular mistake?No. Not really. Why? Because it is so easily recognizable and a tangible example of the Ei$ner’s “Disney®” philosophy. It is the perfect example!!! Oh Landbaron...
so how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience?
Who really hates AK? Captain!!! I’ve missed you!!!!! But you still read only part of my posts. Go ahead. Re-read it. There! Do you see your mistake. I didn’t say anyone hated AK! I said that they may hate the AK experience. You know, feeling ripped off because there wasn’t enough to do (their surveys, not mine).They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly that’s because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses. Exactly!! So do you think Disney will be able to change society? I don’t. I think they better start tapping into their psyche. Like some old guy did way back in 1955.
AK offers so much and in such a unique way that I am truly saddened at the inability of people to accept it without a triple loop roller coaster.Me too. (SEE ABOVE)

[DisneyKidds]

Baron, you seem to think Eisner's philosophy is 'Give them quick, cheap garbage, they will eat it up and it will be good enough'. Yes? That is the downfall of Disney, is it not?

They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly thats because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses.

Exactly!! So do you think Disney will be able to change society? I don’t. I think they better start tapping into their psyche.

You seem are implying that the Eisner regime shouldn't have given the public what they did in AK because it wasn't what the public wanted, right?

I have to ask, would that be the quick, cheap garbage the public wanted because they had no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses? As I discussed in another thread (or was it this one :crazy: ) the "roses" (speaking metaphorically) are what help to complete the magic. Are you saying you can have a Magical WDW without the "roses"?

Like some old guy did way back in 1955.

You have impressed me with your knowledge of WDW and Walt himself, but this may be uncharacteristic. I will read up and let you know for sure. However, didn't Walt do more than 'tap into psyche' and 'give the public what they wanted'? It seems to me he had a way of giving the public something they didn't even know they wanted. In a way he did want to, and was successful in, changing society. Why shouldn't current management shoot for the same? As such, I don't by that AK is a failure because they gave so many "roses" that the public didn't want.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Baron, you seem to think Eisner's philosophy is 'Give them quick, cheap garbage, they will eat it up and it will be good enough'. Yes? That is the downfall of Disney, is it not?Yes! You have the essence of it. It is the difference between “Walt’s Disney” and Disney®. You seem are implying that the Eisner regime shouldn't have given the public what they did in AK because it wasn't what the public wanted, right? (Hmmm. Why do I feel like I’m being led down the proverbial garden path!?)

Well… Your honor… I have no clear memory of it at this time! (That’s the Chicago way!!)

Seriously though, yes and no. I think if they wanted to present us with that ‘different’ experience that AK is, then it is incumbent upon them to present it in a way that the public will accept. In other words, you can’t let the people leave feeling rip-off. If they truly wanted to bring us this new experience then a Beastly Kingdom is an absolute must!! (or at least something like it.) The public, after experiencing the instant gratification can then go back and experience the WOW(!!) that goes into the exploration of the nooks and crannies. That was the principle upon which (witch) EPCOT was founded. After 20+ years of exploration, I’m still finding little things I never noticed before, especially in World Showcase.

In a way, it’s kind of like giving us EPCOT with only World Showcase and a vague promise that Future World will come. Even though WS is by far my favorite place in all of WDW, I would have been sorely disappointed had it opened alone. Ripped off would have been putting it mildly. And I probably wouldn’t have returned, and therefore have missed all those little things that for me at least, make up so much of the ‘Magic’!! However, didn't Walt do more than 'tap into psyche' and 'give the public what they wanted'? It seems to me he had a way of giving the public something they didn't even know they wanted.WOW!!! There’s hope for you yet!!! That is a perfect statement!! And very well put. I’m impressed!!!

[DisneyKidds]

Ah, but my good Baron, I assume the 'hope' you see is that I will someday be riding with you in Car #3. I hope the day never comes because that would truely be a sad commentary on our beloved WDW. I know your true hope if for everyone to be consolidated into a bus #1. Scratch that - a monorail #1. Scratch that - a next gen WDW transportation vehicle #1 ...... ;)

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ah, but my good Baron, I assume the 'hope' you see is that I will someday be riding with you in Car #3.My hope is that Disney will wake up and smell the coffee. There is nothing more that I’d rather do than to join you in car #1, happily riding to my beloved DVC for the next forty or so years.

I think you’re thinking of it in the wrong terms. Any old timer on these boards will tell you I’m the original schizophrenic when it comes to Disney. And they will further tell you that it took quite a while, and a whole bunch of education (in Disney) to form my present stance. And once my current viewpoint was solidified it surprised me how easy it was to disregard the ‘business philosophy’ and not let it interfere with the Magic. I think that is what holds a lot of people in car #1. (just a guess, mind you. But I really do believe it. It’s like what AV says about brand loyalty).

Now I said it’s easy and I mean it. If you think of it as a parent thinks of a kid. No matter what the kid does, they still love him (i.e. feel the magic). And for most behavior a parent gladly looks the other way (not my kid!!). And this is what I feel a lot of #1 people do here. Or they make excuses, "Oh! We ran out of Ritalin today!!" or “Really. He’s just tired. He usually doesn’t use language like that!!”

But sometimes. Just sometimes, Father Flanagan is proven wrong and the parent has to resort to “tough love”. That, in a nutshell, is my take on things. There is no way to stop the spiral downhill, given the current management personnel (in parenting terms, behavior modification is absolutely mandatory!!). However, I still love the kid (feel the magic). But it’s time for some changes or he’ll wind up an irrefutable juvenal delinquent!!

[DisneyKidds]

In todays society we are way too quick to put kids on Ritalin or other meds. ADHD and the like are the diagnoses du jour. There are differing levels of behavior modification as well. Sounds like the debate board now ;).

Is the child (WDW) going thru some terrible two's? Perhaps the child (WDW) is going through some pre-pubescent hormonal thing. Maybe the child (WDW) just had a tiff with a best friend or broke up with a boy/girl friend. Maybe the kid (WDW) doesn't know how to responsibly spend all that money he is making from that new paper route. There are lots of issues kids (WDW) might have that don't lead down the road to juvenile delinquency.

Timing, refurbishment, makeovers, the age of the parks, financial management, business relationships, new endeavors - none of these are easy to manage. However, just like it is best to try and help kids through their problems and give them some time before you go great guns with the meds and serious behavioral mod, so too should we allow WDW to grow, mature, make mistakes, learn....... I agreed once before, WDW is akin to a problem child, however, we must keep the problems in perspective. And remember, when dealing with children you must praise the positive as well. If you don't do this you do more damage than you can imagine. Continually, and only, harping on the negative can be damaging to the child and can get in the way of finding effective solutions to the issues. Before you say it, I will - you recognize when WDW does something good, it just isn't very often lately. I happen to disagree and believe that Disney today doesn't get enough credit for much of what they do.