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View Full Version : Why are DVC members paying so much?


lsjp
01-02-2001, 07:40 PM
Why are DVC members paying so much for accomodations? Between the cost of purchasing the points, operating expenses, capital reserve expenses, property tax, etc. you are paying a fortune just for accomodations. That doesn't include air fare, meals, a rental car, entertainment, etc. And then you have to HOPE you can book your trip when you want to go.

I don't pay DVC fees, go where I want to go when I want to go, and if where I want to go doesn't have accomodations when I want to go, I don't have to pay them. I can skip it and save the money, I can go somewhere else, I can book it for another time . . . if **I** want to.

I just don't see the advantage to the DVC. I think you are all being ripped off. My sister has DVC at OKW with a 350 point plan. If you figure out the income stream from what she spent for the points, it amounts to $1600 a year. When you add the $1100 in additional fees, that's $2600 a year. And what does she get for that? About ten nights in a one bedroom . . . maybe. That's if she booked early enough. She didn't this past year and had to book separate accomodations off Disney. So now she paid for accomodations twice. Such a deal. Like $2700 for ten days was cheap to begin with.

Just my 2 cents worth. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I encourage anyone looking into this plan to look into it VERY CAREFULLY before committing any money.

nydizfan
01-02-2001, 07:49 PM
you seem to not have educated yourself on the values of a DVC ownership. Just wait. i dont have the time to answer all your questions but all i have to say is ... just wait , the answers will come , hard and fast . You asked for it. hehe dave :cool:

offsite '71 contemporary '72 golf resort '76 village resorts '93 okw '94 okw '95 contemporary '96 okw '97(got married) okw '97 late okw '99 okw '00

Lesley
01-02-2001, 08:15 PM
Do you have any clue how much 10 nights in a 1BR would cost if you paid cash? Well over $2500, even in value season.

And she doesn't lose her points unless she fails to bank them...so the next year she can plan ahead better and get 20 days...or whatever.

No, DVC isn't for everyone...but it is a good deal for many of us.

http://disneyclipart.simplenet.com/Movies/Winnie_the_Pooh/kanga-roo01.gif
Lesley


1979 Contemporary
1992 Off-site
1994 Carribean Beach
1999 Fort Wilderness and Coronado Springs
2000 Polynesian and Old Key West
2002 Boardwalk Villas

Pixieduster
01-03-2001, 03:13 AM
Currently, 10 nights in a 1 Bedroom at OKW during Value Season (subsantially higher during peak times) would go for $3,750.00. If you add on the 11% tax, that would be 4162.50. Those prices will coninue to go up yearly, where as the points required for a one bedroom through DVC will never go up. Also, you show her as paying 1600 per year. If she purchased her plan this year with the price increase for points now at 72.00 a point (she may have paid less depending on when she purchased) the cost of the 350 points would have been $25,200.00 broken down over 42 years would be $600.00 per year with annual dues being approximately 1137.50. She's paying $1,737.00 per year for 10 days in an accomadation that would cost her much more than that without DVC. The value will only increase over the years as the prices of Disney resorts continue to go up. I know I didn't include financing costs in this however, but none the less, if you are a person who travels to Disney frequently, this is definitly not a bad deal. It would currently cost apporx. 1431.00 to stay 10 days in a moderate resort during value season at Disney this year. You can't even begin to compare a moderate with a one bedroom accomadation which includes lots more space, a kitchen, a huge bathroom with a jacuzzi tub, washer and dryer, two balconies, I could go on and on. Like the previous posters have stated, it's not for everyone. But for people like us, who saw ourselves having to pour more and more of our money into Disney each year for our vacations, this was the way to go for us. We don't feel like we are getting ripped off in any way. It seems that the majority of us DVC owners couldn't be happier with our decisions.

dianeschlicht
01-03-2001, 03:23 AM
Dont cast aspersions unless you know the details. We always went on a cash basis before we bought into DVC. My husband looks at ALL the details before he does anything like this. He is, after all, an engineer! We figure we save about half by doing DVC than we would if we booked a regular reservation at a deluxe hotel on-site, and then we would not have a full apartment with kitchen, washer/dryer, whirlpool tub, and all the other amenities. It is a great deal if you are willing to do the planning and are a detail person. If you aren't will to do these things, then you will lose out, but that is no fault of DVC. We looked into lots of timeshares after we took the first DVC tour to see what the others were about and compare DVC to them. We found DVC to be head and shoulders above anything else we looked at. I have even been very successful at exchanging for Hawaii, and I still had enough points to book Disney twice for that same year. That means 3 weeks of accomodations in deluxe resorts with all the amenities. Can you do that each year for a 15,000 initial investment and $700 a year maintance fee? I don't think so. Especially when you consider that we do this year after year after year. We will be retiring in a few years, and I intend to take even more use of my DVC. I might even buy more points! :D

Disneydiane

WebmasterDoc
01-03-2001, 03:36 AM
After we joined DVC in 1993, I carefully tracked all costs- including original purchase expense, amortized lost interest on that amount and annual fees (I didn't include transportation and food since I would have paid for those anyplace else.) I also tracked what expenses I would have had in other onsite accommodations. In less than 5 years- I was ahead in $$ saved.
Depending on how often you can go and what type of resort you would stay at the savings can be significant.
If you can go to WDW at least every other year- DVC will save $$ over time. This is fairly easy to demonstrate. In addition, the rooms are far larger with nicer amenities than any other resort at WDW- full kitchens, jacuzzi tubs, w/d, etc.
You might want to call 1-800-800-9100 and ask for the free video and information packet and then take a tour. There is a lot to learn about the program. Enjoy!

Doc DVC Board Co-Moderator

lsjp
01-03-2001, 04:58 AM
I appreciate the replies so far. Somehow, though, I am still seeing things a little differently. Let's start with, some are comparing DVC prices with Disney prices. I guess that's part of the problem. I think Disney resorts are overpriced. Some years ago we stayed at the Boardwalk Inn. Nice, but the room was the same size as the room we had at the Best Western the year before at five or six times the price. And I've found nice places just outside of Disney with larger suite type accomodations with kitchenettes, nice pools, and nicely manicured grounds for half the price of Disney.

With respect to comparing $25,000 up front to $600 per year, I vehemently disagree. If you had $25,000 up front, invested the money at a market rate, and withdrew just enough money every year so you would empty your account after 40 years, you would have over $1700 per year, not $600. That's a big difference in cost. $600 per year would correspond with an $8500 up front cost.

That's not your total expense. Add to that some $1100 in other fees. Total expense per year: $2800. I can get really nice accomodations for that kind of money. In Disney, that number of points would be good for about a week at the Beach Club, three weeks in a studio at OKW, a week and a half in a one bedroom at OKW. You get the idea. The Disney properties are nice and there is little around that is like them, but I just think that's a lot of money for accomodations only.

Then there is the aggravation. If you forget to call early enough then you can't book the accomodations for when you want them. I don't want to hear "you have no one to blame but yourself". I don't need the aggravation. Then I see postings from people trying to rent points they don't want/can't use. I see postings from people wondering if they are going to "lose out" on their points if they don't use them. They have to call to "bank" them or they'll lose out (even after paying all that money, you can still lose out).

I see this as a can't lose situation for Disney. They get people to commit to spending lots of $$$$ on accomodations every year for the next 40 years. That's just for starters. Then you can spend money on their overpriced (sometimes excellent, sometimes good, sometimes lousy) restaurants. Then you can spend money on their souvenirs. You can spend money on their theme parks. I understand why Disney does this. They can't lose.

Like I said, I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade. That's not the purpose of this post. I just don't see how it all adds up.

Sorry for being a pain. Regards.

DebbieB
01-03-2001, 05:02 AM
Gee, Disney managed to rip off the current 53,000 members who all didn't know what they were doing? They are so sneeky! :)

When you compare the price of DVC to a moderate, it does sound expensive. But we are not getting moderate rooms, we are getting luxurious accomodations. The 1 bedrooms and up are nowhere near the size of regular hotel rooms. The rack rate on the 2 rooms I had last year (1 bedroom - 6 nights each) was over $4,600. My dues were about $1,000. So there's over $3,600 to put towards what DVC cost me. At this rate, I figure to break even within 5 years and will just be paying dues after that.

JulieWent
01-03-2001, 05:18 AM
When I pulled up the boards this morning, the first post I read was, "Disney Resort Prices Going Up." I read this with interest but without worry. My DVC is paid for. After I pay my $600 dues for the year, I get to spend six nights in a one-bedroom at BWV in May. The room I booked for this trip BEFORE I bought BWV was at the Poly -- current rate $420 per NIGHT. Do the math. For my family, DVC was a good purchase. It's not for everyone, but each of us has our own little "luxuries."

jimh13432
01-03-2001, 05:21 AM
The last time I looked, you couldn't walk to Epcot or MGM from the Best Western either.

RWishbone
01-03-2001, 05:29 AM
The reason that the DVC is such an excellent value is the size and location of the rooms. If you are only looking for a clean place to sleep and do not mind travelling back and forth to the parks each day, then the DVC is not for you. I own at the BW and can only relate my experiences there but that resort has so much to offer my family it is well worth the price. First off, the resort only a short walk away from EPCOT and MGM. While others are fighting the crowds after Illuminations just to get to the monorail, I am already back at the resort. It literally takes one hour off the end of the day and with little kids, that makes a huge difference. Next the size of the rooms and the availability of a kitchen are huge advantages. Again with small children, it is great to be able to put them in for a nap in the next room or to be able to put them to bed before the rest of the family goes to sleep. If you just want to talk money, then consider that a full kitchen in the room allows us to save big bucks on meals. Quite honestly I could go on forever about the benefits of the DVC (jacuzzi, great pool, pool hopping, etc..) Next time you go to Disney, split your vacation between an offsite Hotel and a one or two bedroom at the Boardwalk. Then get back to us...until then you are uniformed.

Rich

TimL
01-03-2001, 05:30 AM
Before buying into DVC I struggled some with the numbers, too, wondering if DVC was a good deal.

The BIG point I was missing (as DebbieB pointed out) was that a DVC one bedroom is SO MUCH nicer than a room at a moderate. You have a full kitchen, king sized bed in a separate bedroom, vcr, jacuzzi, etc. Do your cost analysis on what you would pay for a one bedroom in cash vs dvc points. We saved $4000 on our first trip over the cash price and continue to save each and every trip. We also save on meal costs because we can eat breakfast and sometimes lunch at our one bedroom villa (before we ate out 3 times a day at the expensive Disney restaurants).

Yes, you can get similar accomodations offsite at less of a price, but it's not the same as staying onsite. We stayed offsite in 1998 and the bus transportation was terrible so we ended up using our rental car. At OKW we have bus transporation right outside our door. Also staying onsite takes far less time when taking midday breaks back at the room - when we stayed offsite it took alot of time to find our car, drive back to our offsite hotel, drive back to Disney and park, take the boat to the MK, etc. (disney buses let you off at the entrance to the MK, not at the parking lot).

As someone else said, DVC isn't for everybody. I am a planner and I never have a problem getting the reservations I want 11 months out (for our home resort) and so far 7 months out for the other dvc resorts (we've stayed at 2 others besides our home resort). Some people are more spontaneous, planning last minute trips, and they may be frustrated when DVC rooms are not available. Also you can get more value out of your points if you plan to avoid staying at dvc resorts on the weekends (where the point cost doubles).

If you are happy staying in regular sized Disney hotel rooms or offsite, don't like planning ahead, and take alot of weekend trips, maybe DVC isn't for you

[This message was edited by TimL on 01-03-01 at 09:35 AM.]

Doctor P
01-03-2001, 05:32 AM
Given the number of financial professionals and other very intelligent people who are members of DVC, it's hard to believe we have all been hoodwinked. ;) As has been said hundreds of times, DVC is not for everyone--you need to expect to go to DVC resorts (whether at WDW or elsewhere) at least once every three years. Second, you must view DVC as a prepaid vacation plan.

Let's compare apples to apples for a moment: Let's assume that one takes a vacation in Orlando every year and stays off-site at peak (holiday) season in a studio/kitchenette type of arrangement. Having investigated this last year and just looked up numbers again, $800 per week would be a very bare minimum for the holidays. Assume a six percent increase in room rates each year (reasonable in that market from past trends), and the cost will be doubled every 12 years. Thus, in 2013 the week will cost about $1600, in 2025 the room will cost $3200, and in 2037 the room will cost $6400. Without playing with inflating all the intermediate years, this means 12 years at $800= $9600, 12 years @ $1600 is $19,200, 12 years @ 3200 is $38,400, and 5 years at $6400 is $32,000. Thus, the total of this pay as you go scenario would be $99,200. My cash outlay for 150 points will be about $12,000 including interest. at an annual rate of increase in dues of even 6% (very high!!!!), my dues would be about $950 in 12 years, $1900 in 24 years, $3800 in 36 years. My total outlay for dues would be $58,900 under this extreme scenario. Add that to the $12,000 outlay for the points and I still come out about $30,000 ahead in this scenario without even considering the more favorable tax treatment of the DVC purchase. I assure you, even with discounting a significant financial advantage for DVC does not go away!

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

drusba
01-03-2001, 05:56 AM
Actually you are correct that DVC is more expensive than if you went to Disney every year and stayed off-site. In fact, even if you like staying on site but don't mind going to All-Stars (the budget resort) every year, the cost of DVC would likely be higher in the long run. Finally, I cannot disagree that on-site hotels, particularly deluxe class, are very expensive in comparison to nice off-site accomodations.

Nevertheless when considering the true value of DVC, the proper comparison is to deluxe accomadations on site, as that is what the DVC resorts are. The overwhelming majority of DVC owners prefer, rabidly, to stay on site in the best accomodations they can afford. In other words, they are among that large group of people who simply believe that the experience of staying on site beats staying off-site any day. Many such as yourself believe otherwise. It is like people who like to live in cities and those who don't. A 3 bedroom condo in the heart of the activity area of a major city is likely to be substantially smaller and more expensive than a large 4 bedroom home in the suburbs. The owners of the condo are there because they prefer being in the heart of the action while the ones in the suburb can't believe someone would really want to live in the city particularly at the prices charged. When comparing value in that situation, you don't compare the two. You compare the condo to others in the same area.

To me, when I consider value as a BWV owner, I look it as I am able to get a 1BR or better in one of WDW's premier areas (Epcot/MGM)for a price which is less than I would ever spend on renting a single hotel room in the same area year after year.

RweTHEREyet
01-03-2001, 06:01 AM
lsjp wants to be convinced. Otherwise, why bother with all this commentary. If you have to be convinced, then DVC isn't for you. If you don't know that you want DVC, then forget about it.

RweTHEREyet?

Pixieduster
01-03-2001, 06:07 AM
Right Drusba. For people like us, you can't possibly make a comparison of a DVC resort to an offsite resort, because I personally would never stay offsite. There is something about being onsite that just makes our vacation that much more enjoyable. If you're a person who likes being offiste, then DVC probably is not for you. For those of us that prefer being onsite, DVC is a great way to go.

jcodespoti
01-03-2001, 06:22 AM
Then Don't join.


p.s I Never had a problem booking and getting what I want. Never.

wdwnut
01-03-2001, 07:02 AM
hi to all: lsjp- our only regret was not having purchased into dvc in 93 when we first heard about it. we waited and stayed on-site in places like the contemporary, poly, and wl with our ap rates before we bought into the bwv. we could've had the entire initial outlay paid off by now! oh well, live and learn! seriously, as the other posters have noted, if you like staying off site, dvc may not be for you. whatever your decision, have a wonderful time at wdw!

Jimbo
01-03-2001, 07:13 AM
I don't have too much to add, but as a very satisfied DVC member with 400 points, I have to chime in.

It's been said many times in this thread already, but the cost of onsite accomodations is going up at a rate that's much higher than inflation. The bulk of our costs, OTOH have already been paid. All that's left is the maintenance fee, which is going up at the inflation rate, or less.
And I <u>want</u> to stay onsite; if I didn't then maybe I'd see things differently.

You said that you could take the $25,000, invest in a MM, and take out $1700 per year for 40 years. Bear in mind that this $1700 would be pre-tax. Living in a high tax state, I always figure that $1 of income is only 60 cents after tax (and that's conservative). So my $1700 would actually be about $1000. That doesn't go very far at WDW.

Your points and membership are also marketable. If your sister so chose, she could sell her 350 points. She could get $3500 in a flash for them. Many people are asking more; she could too. She could also sell her membership. If she were willing to settle for $19,000, he could probably sell it in a day. If she held out for, say, $21,000 it could take a little longer.

I'm baffled as to why she can't get accomodations. I've called for OKW reservations as little as two months in advance, and I've NEVER had any problems. I understand that 1999 was special, because of those of us that had park passes that couldn't be used after 1999. Other than that, though, it should be a breeze.

DisneyCrazy
01-03-2001, 07:22 AM
I think the big thing here is that if you are HAPPY with staying off-site then DVC is NOT for you. Those of us that ALWAYS stay on-site will see a big $$ advantage over the years. We, like wdwnut, are only sorry we didn't purchase in 1992 when we first stayed at OKW (13 nights in a 2BR - that trip alone would have covered 1/3 of our initial investment). We have 350 points and have made three trips to WDW in 2000 (5 night in an OKW studio in May, 5 nights in a OKW Grand Villa in August and 5 night in a BWV 1BR in December) - Heck, the five nights in the OKW GV would have set us back over $5k alone!

It all depends what you are happy with - we would NOT be happy staying anywhere else but on Disney property - to us that is 1/2 of the vacation experience. Also I have never had trouble getting the accomodations I want, when I want (except when having to change VERY close to our arrival date, but I've had trouble with that staying OFF-SITE for a conference as well). I think DVC memeber LIKE to plan a little more than the average 'once in a lifetime' Disney visitor - again it adds to our vacation experience.

As with anything, there are pro's and cons - my one sister tends to make last minute plans and likes to stay at various locations (BC and DxL are her favorites) so she has opted not to buy into DVC - but not becuase of the $$ factor.

To each his own!

-Paul

Galahad
01-03-2001, 07:37 AM
If your decision to buy into DVC is strictly financial and it is just another time share from which to choose, you will likely feel that you are over charged. If, as many have stated, you view it as a pre-paid vacation rather than an "investment" you are likely to be more pleased with a decision to buy. Comparing the price to off site accomodations is not relavent because getting the deluxe accomodations in the heart of things is a big part of the motivation to buy into DVC. The fact that it is a no-lose for Disney doesn't make it an no-win for the DVC member. We are all well aware that part of the bargain is Disney's desire to have us on site as often as possible spending money. The point is, most of us have concluded that we would be on site spending money with or without the DVC and that overtime we will spend less as members that as non-members. The argument about investing the money instead of buying the membership has a couple of problems. First, if you evaluate every dollar you spend against what it could make if invested you must have a pretty dreary life. Second, we have 410 points that we spent around $26,000 for that works out to $600 or so a year over the life of the membership plus the dues/taxes. Accomodation rates will likely go up at a rate not far from whatever I might make on that money over the course of that time. Again, assuming that we bought into DVC becuase we WILL go every year. Assuming that I invested the $26,000 at 6% and left it sit for 45 years it would be about $358,000 at the end that time. If we take to roughly $4000 stated above for the cost of a 1br for 10 days now during off-peak, and assume a modest 3% increase each year (probably way too low) it would total about $370,000 over the same period of time. Now I know these are rough numbers, but if your goal is a quality, on site, WDW vaction over the years it really isn't a bad deal at all. :)

Richyams
01-03-2001, 08:10 AM
My amatorized cost goes down every year. This year my vacation cast under $400 a night for a three bedroom Grand Villa at OKW. This room has a rack rate of $1200-1800 per night depending on season.

Or you can think of it this way....My original cost for 430 points was about $23,000, add to that my first two years of dues, $2,500, then I went on two twelve night vacations in the Grand Villa at OKW during my first two years of membership. At that time the rack rate was aroung $1,100 per night, plus the 10% room tax, and I actually broke even the second year.

Now my vacations are only costing me dues. I get a three bedroom Grand Villa for slightly over $100 per night....makes me feel giddy knowing what a great bargain I got with DVC.

Creeping socialism was seen hundreds of years ago when James Madison said: "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."

MikeBW
01-03-2001, 08:15 AM
Hey Isjp,

If you think DVC is such a bad deal, don't join.
You would probably be using pool towels in your room anyways, so stay away!

Richyams
01-03-2001, 08:17 AM
Lol.....and sneeking 5 into a one bedroom!!!!!!

Creeping socialism was seen hundreds of years ago when James Madison said: "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."

Island_Lauri
01-03-2001, 08:20 AM
When we purchased, we used Disney financing. Without getting into too many details, we are paying about $160 a month for our contract and $60 a month in dues - about $220.00 a month or $2600.00 a year.

This year we are staying at the BWV for 1 week during February--5 nights in a one bedroom and 2 nights in a studio. We have also scheduled a few nights in September at a Beach Cottage and are taking both of our parents with us for a very special vacation with the grandchildren.

We look at our payments like a vacation club or a Christmas club -- similiar to putting money in the bank each month. But putting $2600 in the bank would not get us the accommodations we are getting this year and it sure beats coming back from Disney with major credit card bills. I realize that this doesn't take into account the 3% interest we could be earning on our "vacation club" bank account but neither does it take into account the tax deductability of financing our "vacation home".

Of course, once our financing is paid in full, we will only be paying annual dues and still be able to stay in deluxe accommodations til we are in our 80's.

Gary OKW'94
01-03-2001, 08:32 AM
We love our paid off "Piece of the Magic". Enough said.

DisMN
01-03-2001, 08:56 AM
Galahad said:
The fact that it is a no-lose for Disney doesn't
make it an no-win for the DVC member.
======================

I agree. Not only that but I wouldn't WANT to buy a timeshare from a company that people viewed as an easy mark. That type of company would no doubt NOT last long and I would at that point own NOTHING! I LIKE the fact that Disney looks at DVC as a no-lose situation for itself. It's a sign of a good, well run business!

Another reason we like to stay on-site is that we don't enjoy driving around. We take a vacation in the true sense of the word. No driving, no hassles, no parking...etc.....a nice relaxed vacation! DVC offers us the chance to stay in EPCOTs backyard, and the ability to to as much or as little as we want on our vacations with the added benefit to us of no driving

rhk43
01-03-2001, 09:09 AM
I could have saved lots of money if I slept in the Orlando bus terminal, and walked to the resorts. Instead, because I work hard for a living, I treat myself to the DVC and the many member benefits and great rooms!! I like to spoil myself and my wife, I see nothing wrong with that. Too many people when they go to Disney look at the $$ figure. Its not a big concern of mine. Enjoy the posts, its been fun!!!

DebbieB
01-03-2001, 09:11 AM
And who said this board needs more excitement? ;) :)

DVC-Landbaron
01-03-2001, 09:16 AM
As has been pointed out countless times on this thread, a prerequisite to DVC ownership is the unacceptability of staying off-site. With that said, in my particular circumstance, 5 kids (sometimes with friends) demand economic accommodations. Even staying at the All Stars is rather expensive if you’re paying for two rooms. And living conditions are still VERY tight. Not to mention eating out of Styrofoam coolers!!!

Conversely, a two bedroom, or Grand Villa... Ahhhhh! That’s affordable MAGIC!!!


:cool: :D :D :cool:

CaptainMidnight
01-03-2001, 09:47 AM
Thank you to all who are providing numbers to support the finacial benefit of DVC.

And, to those who say that the only way to visit Disney is staying on site, I must say I whole heartedly agree. Anything less than the deluxe hotels feels like a second class visitor... and what about with little children when you need a nap break in the middle of the day, or time to splash in a pool for a little while.

Then, of course, there is something about that feeling you have walking around the parks knowing you own a piece of the place, that if you miss an attraction this time, there's no need to rush, you'll be back again.....

I don't know what the price is for that ownership feeling, but that has value for me.....

DisneyCrazy
01-03-2001, 09:55 AM
<ul>
<hr>

DebbieB wrote:

And who said this board needs more excitement?

<hr>
[/list]




That would be me - I was just about to comment that this post has refreshed the DIS DVC board with something more than technical staleness (although those technical posts are need too - no offense meant to the DVC gurus that diligently answer all the newbie questions - you've helped me more than once!).

-Paul

chris1gill
01-03-2001, 10:57 AM
For three years in a row, we will have reserved 12 night in a 1 bedroom for 252 points... so first of all your sister must be going in price season or something... those rates are higher...

Between buy in & Dues, each point costs me 5.25 - that combines initial purchase price & dues... 252 points X 5.25 = 1323... far lower than what you have quoted.... We go in September, November and December...

As for the off-site on-site debate... if you are happy off-site, DVC is not for you in the first place.... if you think Disney on-site prices are too expensive, then stay off-site, which reverts back to DVC is not for you.... We like DVC because we ALWAYS stay on-site and ALWAYS stay in a 1 bedroom villa... Considering that villa costs about 350 a night with tax, THAT is a lot of money... the 1323 we pay for 12 nights in a 1 bedroom villa at OKW or BWV standard is a drop in the bucket and I'm more than happy to pay it!!

PamOKW
01-03-2001, 11:31 AM
Yes, there are cheaper ways to vacation at WDW on and off-site. I'll drag out my old comparison...you can buy a Yugo or you can buy a Bentley and both will get you around. It is up to you what type of vehicle you are most comfortable with and can best afford. Annual dues are the gas and maintenance for the vehicle. I love my Bentley!! ;)

As to having to pre-plan DVC vacations well that's true of any WDW vacation. It's very rare that you could call up spur of the moment and book the resort you want at a rate you want. Actually, the pre-planning is almost a benefit as it makes you stop and think and plan your vacations into your hectic lifestyle. My brother's family had no summer vacation this year because they kept "waiting", until the summer was over (not a WDW vacation, just "a" vacation). Planning in advance is necessary for lots of vacations, any of the casinos in CT or NJ are not avaialable spur of the moment in the summer or weekends.

You can do Disney cheaper and some people don't want to do Disney. But, if you like a luxury vacation at WDW and plan to do it fairly often, DVC is an excellent way to do it.

Momof2Mice
01-03-2001, 11:47 AM
I'm not a DVC member, but my parents are. We just decided to go to Disney in January (kind of spur of the moment, huh?). They are actually going twice in January (he booked the trips last week) and was able to get the rooms that he wanted and the dates that he wanted. He belongs at BWV. I don't know about any other pros or cons, but just thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

18 days and counting...

Galahad
01-03-2001, 11:55 AM
Good point about the lead time issue. We have had good luck (though not 100%) getting OKW ressies at the last minute...even with just a few days lead time. It takes some thought, but you can play the ressies gave with member services just as well as you can with central reservations.

DVC-Landbaron
01-03-2001, 12:23 PM
I’m the one that’s always complaining about the ‘Good-old-Disney-days’ of long ago. But, I do remember a time when a two year reservation window, at either the Poly or the Contemporary, was the norm. An 11 month window is very easy to manage compared with that!! I’ve never had a problem even in 1999. Just calls for a little planning.

:D ;) ;) :D

Dumbo
01-03-2001, 01:36 PM
I know of a DVC family who bought into the Disney Vacation Club over 5 years ago. They spent 5 wonderful summer vacations at Walt Disney World at Old Key West. They then sold their interest in the Disney Vacation Club for more money than they paid for it !! How much money did they lose on those 5 vacations?

Dumbo

Dumbo
01-03-2001, 01:39 PM
Hey Rich,

Can't you sell you interest in the Disney Vacation Club for more money than you paid for it?

Dumbo

Richyams
01-03-2001, 02:03 PM
I think I can sell it for more then I paid for it. My 430 points is in two contracts. One for 230 and the other for 200. So I don't have to take the large contract hit. I paid $51 for one and $53 for the other direct from Disney. Anyone who bought back in '92 or '93 paid the same as I did.

Creeping socialism was seen hundreds of years ago when James Madison said: "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."

poopie
01-03-2001, 02:18 PM
If we would have put the money in our vacation club that we spent on the last 3 vacations it would have been piad for and we would have 42 years of free vacations.

We started now and it will start paying for itself in a few years.

Disney Vacation Club is for those who like the magic, luxuary, convience, flexability and affordability of their Disney vacations.
If these things don't appeal to you don't buy, I'm not going to spend my time trying to convince you.

Rachael

7 days to WDW

All-Star Movies 99
Dixie Landings 00
DVC Members 00
Contemporary 01
BVW,Wonder,AKL 02

Dumbo
01-03-2001, 02:21 PM
Gee Rich,

After Jan. 15th. Disney will be selling DVC points for $72. per point. And you only paid $51 and $53 per point. Plus you had all those wonderful vacations already. Your real estate interest in the Disney Vacation Club keeps rising. Imagine that!

Dumbo

POLLY ANN
01-03-2001, 02:23 PM
Another VERY satisfied DVCer here. We have been owners since 3/95 and have had WONDERFUL vacations with our points.

Last year we had our family join us in a Grand Villa!! That would have cost us over $8000 alone to stay in the same building and share the same living room, kitchen, etc!! And, we wowed our family with how nice OKW is.

At the end of this month, we will be WOW'ing our closest friends by staying in a GV with them and that would have cost us about the same price as last year.

To lsjp, that is wonderful that you get to go where you want to go, when you want to go, etc. But, we DVCers CHOOSE Disney to be our main vacation place! And, we DO have a choice to transfer our points to other areas of the world, BTW. Not as good a deal as staying onsite at Disney, but it's still a choice.

Good Luck with all your vacation plans, wherever you choose to go! :D

http://a108.g.akamaitech.net/7/108/24/954ec432f3570d/disney.go.com/disneyvacationclub/images/members/rn_pic_1.jpg

DVC Member since 1995

ceejay13
01-03-2001, 06:01 PM
Great responses everyone! There is absolutely no way to compare the DVC accomodations to a Best Western offsite. We could all go on and on about the magic and benefits of staying onsite in our wonderful DVC accomodations. I do agree it is not for everyone. Over the years our family has gone from staying cheaply offsite to moderates onsite, and now to the DVC. For us the only regret we have is that we didn't join sooner. Much has already been posted about the financial benefits, but most of us also love it for the extras Disney provides that makes all of our stays so magical. You certainly can stay cheaper offsite and you won't get much argument there, but you cannot stay in the same accomodations with the same ammenities for anywhere close.

robinb
01-03-2001, 06:38 PM
I just added up what my 1999 point allocation would have cost me in rack rates:

3 days Studio OKW Holiday Season = $900
2 days 1 BR Stand View BWV Holiday Season = $950
3 days 1 BR Stand View BWV Value Season = $1095
5 days Studio OKW Regular Season = $1270

Grand total: $4215 + 11% tax = $4678 for 13 days.

BTW: We have 230 points and banked 20 from 1998 and borrowed 2 from 2000 to stay all these days. Not bad, AFAIC!


-- Robin

baileybrad
01-03-2001, 07:56 PM
I am a happy and contented DVC owner, but seriously how many would actually pay rack rates for a week in a 2 or 3 bedroom say at OKW.
Before we bought into DVC we stayed at least a dozen times on-property and never once paid rack rates in any resort. We always got either AP or MKC discounts. I do not think that most timeshares will ever be a great way to save money on vacations. I do feel that they tend to "force" one to take time out to enjoy a yearly vacation. That being said if you aren't one of us, you are against us ;) And finally, I don't really think that folks who need to be "convinced" that something is right for them really need to concern themselves with if other folks are being taken advantage of, they should just go with what their gut is telling them and not buy into the DVC.

[This message was edited by baileybrad on 01-04-01 at 12:01 AM.]

Lesley
01-03-2001, 08:22 PM
I think Captain Midnight had a great point...
"Then, of course, there is something about that feeling you have walking around the parks knowing you own a piece of the place, that if you miss an attraction this time, there's no need to rush, you'll be back again.....
I don't know what the price is for that ownership feeling, but that has value for me..... "

We joined on our last WDW trip....and had this feeling even though we were staying at the Poly with a cash ressie. We vowed never to say off property again after our honeymoon off site (t'was a gift...what can I say?)....but to then own a piece of the magic..well that's just a great feeling.

ronbrack
01-04-2001, 06:53 AM
More playing with numbers.. ..

For prospective buyers at $72/point and 3% annual dues inflation, a cost of $10.00 per point is a reasonable guesstimate and a common current rental endpoint.
If you were to average all point costs for a one bedroom at WLV over all seasons, your cost will be near $430/night. If you average all seasons cash costs for these accomodations it is closer to $440/night in 2001.

While accomodations might be expected to rise 6%/year, you could expect at least 6% /year even after taxes if you had invested reasonably.

Seems like a wash to me, no big winners or losers economically. Interested in your thoughts. I will work on quantifying pixie dust and magic in the mean time.

jimh13432
01-04-2001, 07:04 AM
the cost of an Ice Cream Cone at Peach's and Cream - $4.00
the cost of a Hamburg at ESPN - $8.00
the cost of a night at Best Western - $109.00
the cost of a night at a DVC resort? - Priceless

;)

chris1gill
01-04-2001, 09:34 AM
Ronbrack

Your 10.00 figure for an owner at WLV's is wildly overstated... considering the 72.00 per point plus the 3.69 for annual dues, that comes out to about 5.45 per point - owners cost, not 10.00 per point... there is a very big difference there....

Calculated easily by taking that 72.00/41 years left to use that point, add that to the current 3.69 dues, and there you have your true owners cost.

I've seen people try to justify that 72.00 if they banked it, and earned interest... but lets face it, you would use that money ANYWAYS to have your Disney vacations... said in a different way, you would still be spending the money on your Disney vacation.. so even if you calculate interest, you have to calculate the interest on a smaller balance every year, until you have exceeded the initial balance paid, if you paid ten grand for instance, you might get 5 years of accomodations before you would have spent that 10 grand on accomodations.... and that is being very conservative.. you might only get 4 years vacation if you stay at a deluxe for any reasonable amount of time....

So, time to get those calculators out to come up with a more accurate financial picture....

Ed T
01-04-2001, 09:52 AM
After 3 pages of some very intelligent and detailed comments I guess lsjp finally got it since I don't see any further negatives from him.

I would suggest that we not give lsjp any more facts because he may see what he's missing out on.

If anyone wants to buy my 500 points that I paid $55 a point for and considering after I have been able to stay at OKW for the last 5 years for more than 70 nights and had free park passes for the length of my stays for the last 4 years tell me if I made the wrong decision. I still have 42 more years to go.

Ed

DisneyCrazy
01-04-2001, 10:56 AM
Ed,

You made the wrong decision - I hate to see such a nice person go down such a terrible path. I think you best just give ALL your points to me before you get into any more trouble!

:D

-Paul

calbayBWV
01-04-2001, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the cost of an Ice Cream Cone at Peach's and Cream - $4.00
the cost of a Hamburg at ESPN - $8.00
the cost of a night at Best Western - $109.00
the cost of a night at a DVC resort? - Priceless [/quote]

Good one :)

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/anidragon01.gif

Feel free to send me an email :)

If you need help with your Disney problem click here:Calbay's 12 Steps of Disneyholics Anonymouse (http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=40009993&f=55009194&m=165091862)


My recent trip to the Disneyland Resort
Calbay's Holiday 2000 Disneyland Trip Report (http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=40009993&f=61209898&m=840099214)

lsjp
01-04-2001, 01:10 PM
For the record: I find the replies I've received to be fascinating. A good discussion.

Arguments I would deem as valid that support the DVC:

1) The size of the accomodations are much bigger. (Perhaps I'll have to tour them some day. Like I said, the very expensive room we had at the Boardwalk Inn was no bigger than a room at the Best Western).
2) If you are going to stay at Disney year after year anyway then DVC can be worthwhile.
3) Pride of ownership experience.
4) Enjoying being on-site as opposed to off-site. (This I appreciated when I stayed at the Polynesian. However, I didn't find the bus transportation to be that good at the Boardwalk. I suspect OKW would be better since they are closer to central transportation.).

As an aside to those who took my comments personally: I have stayed at Disney at both the Polynesian and the Boardwalk. I enjoyed the Polynesian the most. Will we stay again? Perhaps at some time in the future. But not every year. I am a very big fan of the Magic Kingdom. I am a very big fan of Disney. I am a very big kid.

Some arguments that have been put forth supporting the DVC that I think are worthless:

1) DVC has so much to offer, but I'm not going to take the time to tell you about any of it.
2) Lots of people have bought DVC so it must be a good value. (Lot's of people buy lottery tickets too).
3) Stay away.
4) Constantly referring to $25000 up front as $600 per year. It isn't. It's more like $1700 per year.
5) Regarding the question of how I calculated how long one could stay somewhere with a certain number of points: I used the point calculator on this site.
6) Ice cream $4 (yikes), burger $8 (double yikes), Best Western $109 (now who in their right mind pays $109 for a $40-$50 hotel? Triple yikes.) I will accept the On-site Disney vacation as "priceless". It is a wonderful vacation. As a Disney lover, I'm not disparaging that. . .
7) I reject all the comparisons to rack rates. I think comparisons to discounted rates that people actually pay would be more realistic.

I have to say, this discussion has been fascinating. Thank you all for responding.

Pixieduster
01-04-2001, 01:26 PM
Okay, you don't accept the 600.00 per year for an initial 25,000 purchase price over a period of 42 years. But, I don't see how you're coming up with 1700.00. This was done roughly, but I come to approx. 1900.00 per year over 42 years, including dues, and 10 year financing. I know that's not completely accurate, it's just an estimate, but can you tell us how you are arriving a this 1700.00 amount? You stated in your previous post that this was excluding dues amounts. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to how you arrived at your figure?

lsjp
01-04-2001, 01:28 PM
Oh, I didn't want to leave out the possibility of inflation protection is probably a very good reason to support the DVC. I didn't want to leave that out since I think that's an important reason. Although, I do have to chuckle when a few posters suggested that rates for accomodations at Disney would rise "faster than inflation" but that their annual dues would rise "slower than inflation". It's all what you want to believe, I suppose.

Despite that, I still think possible inflation protection is a valid reason.

Some other thoughts I have after perusing this site:

1) I see an entire board for people trying to rent their DVC points. Obviously these are folks that thought they wanted to visit Disney every year but have decided not to for whatever reason.

2) My sister did in fact have to rent other accomodations for her family's trip last year (off-site, boo). While I'm sure that you can get accomodations for January as another poster has told us they have, it is the slow season for them. We used to go late January as well for just that reason. No crowds (yeah!). All the hotels are at slash and burn prices (except Disney). Lots of attractions have 1/2 price fares (except Disney, boo). If you want to use DVC for school vacation periods, which is exactly when we would want to go right now, then you need to book your DVC early or lose out.

Thank you all again for your replies.

PamOKW
01-04-2001, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1) The size of the accomodations are much bigger. (Perhaps I'll have to tour them some day. Like I said, the very expensive room we had at the Boardwalk Inn was no bigger than a room at the Best Western).
[/quote]

I had thought you had been in a DVC resort with your sister or on a tour. Until you have seen a one-bedroom or larger this discussion is difficult. There is no comparison to any hotel room and a one-bedroom or larger. In fact, at Vero, a Grand Villa is a complete oceanfront home. (When they were building them locals wanted to purchase them.)

DVC resort rates have been increasing at a rate of 6% or more (sometimes much more depending on season and accomodation). DVC dues have been staying just about stable for the last five years. To stay at a DVC resort and not be a member, you have to wait longer to reserve with Disney than for other WDW resorts and aren't assured of a discount (or even a reservation).

Just a few more thoughts. However, if you do not want to go to Disney on a regular basis it does make more sense to play the reservation rate game for infrequent stays. That's something else DVC members no longer have to do either. ;)

lsjp
01-04-2001, 01:54 PM
Pixieduster:

No problemo.

I used a financial calculator to arrive at the result.

Let's do a hypothetical first. If someone offered you a choice of $100,000 now or $5,000 per year for the next 20 years, which would you choose? You would obviously choose the $100,000. Why? Because you can get much more than $5,000 per year for 20 years with $100,000. You can invest the money and earn interest on it. Considering the interst you would earn, you could withdraw roughly $9000 per year over 20 years (instead of getting only $5000 per year over 20 years).

That's why we can't just take $25,000 and divide by 40 to get (approximately) $600 per year. Once we figure the interest we would have earned on that money, we would have been able to withdraw about $1700 per year to have the account run dry after 40 years.

It's the time value of money. You are paying up front for a vacation that you will not receive (on average) until 20 years later. Of course, the vacations you will receive next year are worth a lot more than the vacation you will receive 40 years from now.

Here is the approximate break down.

Received in year 1 = 6.8% of value.
Year 2 = 6.34% of value.
Year 3 = 5.91% of value.
Year 4 = 5.50% of value.
Year 5 = 5.13% of value.

Year 10 = 3.36% of value.

Year 20 = 1.66% of value.

Year 30 = 0.82% of value.

Year 40 = 0.41% of value.

What does this mean? Well, of the $25,000, you would be paying 0.41% of that for the value you receive in year 40. You are paying $102 for the vacation you will receive 40 years from now.

You are paying $415 now for a vacation you will receive 20 years from now.

You are paying $840 now for a vacation you will receive 10 years from now.

You are paying $1700 of that $25,000 for the vacation you receive in the first year.

You are paying $1477 of that $25,000 for the vacation you will receive in the third year.

I hope this helps to clarify just what you are paying for and how it breaks down. I find it fascinating to see these breakdowns. Isn't this a fun chart?

WebmasterDoc
01-04-2001, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although, I do have to chuckle when a few posters suggested that rates for accomodations at Disney would rise "faster than inflation" but that their annual dues would rise "slower than inflation". [/quote]

In the past 9 years DVC dues increases have averaged 2-3% per year while WDW room rates have increased in the >6% range. I guess it is "all what you want to believe".

The point calculator does offer accurate totals, but as most members realize, weekends are far more costly than weeknites and many find ways to maximize point usage by avoiding weekend stays when possible. The actual point cost can be far less than your assumptions.

Your "fun chart" fails to take into consideration the fact that you will still be taking vacations if you had invested the same $25,000- and that total would be earning on a decreasing principle. You can just as easily amortize the true cost over the next 41 years and compute the savings available thru DVC. Use whatever figures or calculator you find to be the most "fun" and DVC will still provide a savings, as long as you include all the factors- not just those that support your premise.

[This message was edited by Doc on 01-04-01 at 06:01 PM.]

Doctor P
01-04-2001, 02:22 PM
To be perfectly honest, there are so many flaws in the "fun chart" that it's not even worth arguing about--we could start with the fact that taxes are not accounted for (I don't know of any account where you can both make annual withdrawals and avoid all taxes), then move to the fact that if you do things in real terms that inflation does NOT need to be accounted for, to the fact that if you borrow for DVC the opportunity cost is substantially less than the $25,000 upfront investment. Indeed, the quick and dirty methods are actually very, very close to being just as accurate as the supposedly elegant and complex methods. I actually test students on this point all the time :)

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

lsjp
01-04-2001, 02:33 PM
Doc:

The "fun chart" DOES take into consideration that the interest you would earn would be on a declining principle. Your balance would slowly dwindle until you had nothing at year 40.

If I hadn't, I would have reported to you the true but misleading result that you could have had a principle balance of about $375,000 after 40 years which would equal over $9,300 per year. I didn't do that because I wanted an apples for apples comparison, which I have provided.

Sorry, but the figures are correct as they stand. I will disclose, however, that the one assumption I made was a 7% annual return on investment. If you assume a higher return on investment, then the $1700 per year figure would be higher. If you assume a lower return on investment, then the $1700 per year figure would be lower. If you assume a zero percent return on investment, then you do indeed get (approximately) $600 per year as some people have tried to suggest.

I just don't think a 0% return on investment is a realistic assumption. I believe 7% is realistic and is in line with most mortgage and bond money. Of course, if you are financing through Disney at 13% or whatever, then that $1700 per year figure goes way up to $2900 per year.

By the way, I can save you a TON of interest on your home mortgage. And I'm not selling anything. I'm just providing information on what you can do with your present mortgage to save oodles of money. Or you can get the book "The Banker's Secret". Same thing.

Right now I'm saving my money for more Mickey Premium Bars. Boy those are good. . .

WebmasterDoc
01-04-2001, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The "fun chart" DOES take into consideration that the interest you would earn would be on a declining principle. Your balance would slowly dwindle until you had nothing at year 40. [/quote]

Ahh, but can you actually vacation on the amount of declining interest with your "fun chart"? (Especially in year 40?) I certainly can with DVC.

I assume you couldn't get your sister to follow your logic either? :)

Pixieduster
01-04-2001, 03:01 PM
I'm just trying to take all this in here. So the figure of 1700.00 is in the assumption that if I didn't spend this money towards DVC, that I would be investing it? i suppose that would be the smart thing to do, but how could I afford to invest the money if I'm paying 4000.00 to stay at disney every year with out DVC? :D

lsjp
01-04-2001, 03:09 PM
Doc:

"Can I actually vacation on $1700 forty years from now?" (Not an exact quotation).

Probably not. Like I said, inflation protection is one of the better arguments for DVC.

I provided the chart and the hypothetical to explain why $25,000 is not the same thing as $600 per year. It isn't. But just what it does equal is subject to an assumption on rate of return.

I missed your second post about tax issues until after I had posted my prior response and it is valid. If you went with 5.5% tax free municipal bonds, then you get $1500 per year instead of $1700. Point well taken.

If inflation rages out of control, then DVC could be a great deal (assuming your other fees don't bury you). If we experience recession bad enough to cause deflation, well that's a big problem. I'm probably on your side on this isssue. I own my own home whether its inflation, deflation, or whatever. And I've never looked back.

Let's do a quick calculation assuming 3% inflation (reasonable? who knows!). If we took our $25,000 invested it in 5.5% tax free municipal bonds, and withdrew an amount so we could withdraw 3% more every year until year 40, how much could we withdraw? About $1000. ($1030 next year, $1061 the year after, etc.).

Of course, if someone were financing DVC then they are paying that finance cost with after-tax dollars so the actual cost is much higher. In that case we are at about $2900 per year. This would also be true for anyone who is paying a credit card (at 13% interest) to have DVC instead of paying off the credit card. We can adjust the interest rate and final result to reflect anyone's actual result. There will be someone who is paying 18% on a credit card ($3800 per year). And they certainly aren't going to join in the discussion to tell us what a dope they are.

I'm sure this is way more information than anyone wanted. Sorry.

Back to Disney: Splash Mountain is my favorite ride . . .

lsjp
01-04-2001, 03:31 PM
Pixieduster:

A whirlwind of figures, yes?

The calculation I did was simply to show what $25,000 was equal to per year. The whole point was I wanted everyone to be using good figures for their cost comparisons. If we go with $1700 per year and add to that your fees ($1100?) you get a total cost to you of $2800 per year for the DVC. If you would normally pay $4,000 to do the same thing without DVC, then it shows you are saving about $1200 per year doing the DVC.

Some folks were saying they were paying $600 per year plus $1100 in fees for a total of $1700 and therefore they were saving $2300 per year. This just isn't accurate because you are paying the $25,000 up front (or financing --- same thing as $25,000 up front).

Feel better? If you were going to spend $4000 instead of doing DVC then you are saving $1200 per year. You are still saving. Just not as much as some would have you believe. But now you can be confident that you have more solid figures to work with.

I guess one of the things I have trouble grasping is $4000 (or even $2800) for accomodations only. When we stayed at the Boardwalk Inn, I was assured by my sister that we wouldn't need a rental car. Boy was I sorry I didn't get a rental car. We ended up eating on site and couldn't walk away from a place for under $50 (with two young children) unless we had junk food and even that was way too much money. It was either $20 for coffee and donuts or $50 for a breakfast buffet. And we had trouble finding Disney restaurants that served salad, something we were missing by the end of our stay. If we had the rental car (cheap in Florida --- we usually rent a minivan), we could have run over to Bob Evans for $20 and had our salads to boot. It was an amazing trip, but everything we did cost a small fortune.

If your going to do Disney no matter what, I am definitely on your side. Do DVC. It will pay in the long run.

As an aside, our family of four will be traveling to Morocco this April. $4000 covers air fare, resort accomodations, all meals and drinks, and nightly entertainment. No Mickey or theme park rides though :( .

Richyams
01-04-2001, 03:48 PM
Seems you have skipped over my justification....

My amatorized cost goes down every year. This year my vacation cast under $400 a night for a three bedroom Grand Villa at OKW. This room has a rack rate of $1200-1800 per night depending on season.
Or you can think of it this way....My original cost for 430 points was about $23,000, add to that my first two years of dues, $2,500, then I went on two twelve night vacations in the Grand Villa at OKW during my first two years of membership. At that time the rack rate was aroung $1,100 per night, plus the 10% room tax, and I actually broke even the second year.

Now my vacations are only costing me dues. I get a three bedroom Grand Villa for slightly over $100 per night....makes me feel giddy knowing what a great bargain I got with DVC.

$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!
$100 per night, on site three bedroom villa!!!

Every year for the next 42 years!!!!!!!!!

Creeping socialism was seen hundreds of years ago when James Madison said: "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."

PamOKW
01-04-2001, 04:29 PM
lsjp -- Ah, now we can start talking food cost savings. I don't go on vacation to cook I go to enjoy the restaurants but I do like having my kitchen at DVC. I can whip up bacon & eggs in my villa with juice for a lot less than I'm going to buy it anywhere on site and I enjoy it while watching the Great Blue Heron walk across the golf course at OKW. Salad would be a no brainer in terms of convenience and savings. I'm telling you ... we "live" at WDW, not just stay in a hotel room.

Some more cost comparisons -- I realize you can sometimes get DVC at a discount but I have no way to track those numbers. I have tracked rack rates for the varying seasons. Looking at just OKW since 1997 room rates have gone up

Studio up 17-43%
1 Bed up 16-50%
2 Bed up 18-72%
GV up 16-50% biggest increase in Christmas Week

Our dues from 1997 to 2001 have gone DOWN -- ever so slightly from $3.1448 to $3.1272 or a little less than 1%.

[This message was edited by PamOKW on 01-04-01 at 08:45 PM.]

chris1gill
01-04-2001, 04:43 PM
LOL.... I have some figures for you... just in case you are the least bit curious...

Since you insist on looking at that 25,000 figure... I'll give in.. of course that is not what most people have, but we'll use it for the sake of convenience... Before I get to my numbers, I will say that when Pixiedust refers to spending 4 grand for her accomodations, I'm sure that she is referring to 10 nights in a 1 bedroom unit....

Since you have insisted on discounts, I've given you the lowest AP rates as of two years ago, that should suit your fancy... BUT there is no way you could stay at either OKW or BW on an extended AP rate, the inventory just is not there.. but to make it easy... I used the AP rate...

Well, if I spent 25 grand at 55.00 a point - that is what I paid, I bought myself 454 points...

This is what 454 points will get you, in consecutive nights....

We vacation in September, it's low usage, and I like that... especially with an AP rate.. you can't get an AP rate, let's say school vacation week... or at any time during the month of December or October....

454 points at OKW translates to
21 consecutive nights in a 1 bedroom
21 * 230 = $4830
September 1-October 11 in a studio... 41 nights?
41 * 190 = $7790

This all takes into consideration you can get the AP rate... last time I got an AP rate, I called for 3 months straight... see DVC resorts don't open availability for a long time...

Now, if you are somewhat flexible, and don't need a concurrent stay, and want a week here or there, and don't want those weekends the picture gets even dimmer for our cash paying friends....

454/8= 56 (Cash rate at AP rate of 190) = $10640
454/16=28 (Cash rate at AP rate of 230) = $6440


This has provided you with the best possible option - the AP rate that you are alluding to... Paying cash even with the AP rate, adds up quickly...

So if you want to use the 25 grand figure... know what 25 grand gets you in a disney resort... if you don't want to pay the cost, that is fine... don't.. But don't expect that you are saving all your money in the bank, because you really aren't.... If you want 10 nights in a 1 bedroom, buy yourself 230 points, and spend more in the neighborhood of 13 grand... that 13 grand diminishes VERY quickly when paying cash every year of 2660 for a studio (14 nights) or 2300 in a 1 bedroom (10 nights)

If you don't want to go on property every year, don't buy DVC or buy half the points you will need in a routine visit.

As for people selling points on the DVC board... for the most part, those are people selling very small increments of points... The people that are selling larger increments are people that bought those points with the intent to sell them.. they sell them for double what they actually cost an owner....

There is more to DVC than meets the eye, but be sure when you are doing your comparisons, that you are comparing cost vs. actual gain

Dean
01-04-2001, 04:58 PM
First, DVC may not be for everyone and there are comparisons that must be made which will be different for each person and family. I too tend to look at this as a strictly financial decision. Not because I use it that way, just that it's the only way I can function. There are so many variables on the cost like deductions for use, interest paid on loans, parking and transportation savings, meal savings, etc., that you must decide what variables are pertinent to you.

DVC is for the person who plans on going to WDW most years and staying on property. It has not saved me money because I was staying off property prior to my purchase but I feel the cost is roughly the same as I paid staying off property and I have crunched the numbers but don't care to go back through the entire spreadsheet of info again. If that's not helpful, I'm sorry. There is no comparison in the relaxation and vacation feeling for me and my family between staying at a cheap hotel and staying in a luxury Condo on property. And let's face it, vacation is all about feeling.

DVC ownership utilizing a studio costs roughly the same as staying the same number of nights in a moderate WDW resort, even if you assume current discounts will continue. A 1 or 2 BR may be somewhat more depending on whether you would need two rooms at the moderate. What do you want to compare to: WDW deluxe, WDW moderate, cheapie off site, Marriott World center (or comparable), cheap timeshare or deluxe timeshare or any variant you can think of. The comparisons will all be different. Actually the cheapest cost will be for a cheap timeshare somewhere other than Orlando and then trade into Orlando every year. You can accomplish this by buying a cheap Marriott off season week for about $1500 (yearly opportunity costs say $105), yearly fees about $500, exchange company membership $74 and exchange fee $69 for a grand total of around $748 for a luxury 2 BR for a full week. Considering the other benefits, extra room and meals cost savings, this method is likely much cheaper in the long run than staying at Best Western, etc. You could come out even cheaper by buying somewhere like Hilton or Fairfield and likely get the cost down to around $400-500 per year.

One of the WDW tour books has a chapter (or at least did previously) titled something like "Evolution of the Second Class Guest" where they tell about the benefits of staying on property and the problems of not doing so. First I believe you are guaranteed admission if you are on property and can even get into one park an hour earlier than everyone else. You can make dinner reservations in advance and use the kennels overnight. Free parking if you chose to drive to the parks and obviously you are much closer. For MK, the WDW bus system takes you directly to the park where otherwise (even if the hotel has a shuttle) you must get there in 2 steps by going to the Transportation and Ticket Center. None of these matter to some but are very important to others.

If you're just as comfortable not having an automatic cost yearly, having more flexibility but at the risk of a higher long term cost and staying off property; please enjoy. For me, I plan on staying at DVC when I visit WDW but will stay at other Orlando timeshares for off site excursions.

As for the cost per point, you can't just take the up front cost, divide by the years left then add the yearly fees and call that your cost, on that we agree. Otherwise, you should just buy extra points and let me rent them at your cost. LOL. True there are many out there that would never save the money and would pay directly for vacations so they may want to view the financial outcome accordingly. I took the money out of my savings, paid cash and when I spend my points, I look at it like I'm paying cash again so I'm very discriminating in spending my points.

Just a few numbers to wrap up. For around 150 points you can get a studio for roughly a week (more or less depending on resort and season). Cost around say $9000 resale at OKW ($60 pp) with yearly fees more like $475. Lost opportunity costs of say a max of $550 depending on tax bracket but more like $400 for most members. That's roughly $1000 a year where a moderate will cost around $925 at current costs and discounts ($119 per night plus tax) and that price will go up every year (and discounts are getting less common). A cheapie hotel will cost around $400 to 600 for a week depending on season (maybe more at high occupancy times).

Finally any timeshare requires planning and therefore if you're not the type that can or will plan say a MINIMUM of 7-11 months in advance for vacations (how much advance planning needed depends on which timeshare), timeshares are not for you anyway regardless of the savings that may be realized. DVC (or timeshares in general) may not be for YOU and that's ok. We don't want you to buy something that's not right for you. If you decide to buy, we will welcome you to the family with open arms. You're certainly welcome to participate in this board as we all enjoy different points of view and discussing (even arguing at times) various aspects of DVC. What we don't welcome is arguing for arguing sake but I don't think that's the case here.

Dean

deerh
01-04-2001, 05:08 PM
Dear Isjp:

Quote: hotels are at slash and burn prices (except Disney) Then you say that I reject rack rates, I think comparisions to discounted rates people ACTUALLY pay would be more realistic.
This is an oxymoron?? How can you compare discounted rates at DISNEY, in summer in my instance- when YOU yourself could not get "cheap rates at disney"? I am a bit confused on this issue. By the way, I am going to let the "DVC experts fight this one out, I am in total agreement that DVC is the best thing we ever did, and I hope you will soon change your thinking, if not, stay at the cheap International Drive places, and stay there. By the way, have fun fighting the lines of cars to and from disney, did the I drive thing, and hated it.--- But to each his own. By the way, we bought our DVC for 11000 or so, plus dues, and in 2 years, we have gone on or will go on 8000 dollars worth of vacations, that is counting the Disney cruise, which is a portion that people may not have mentioned to you. Maybe not the best use of points, but I for one am paying $500 for a $3800 cruise this summer- How does that play out in your figures??
Also your figures do not include the tax deductible second home mortgage for my finacing through Disney-Another thought about redueing your figures.. Just my .02 cents worth..
deerh :)

lsjp
01-04-2001, 05:13 PM
I really appreciate everyone's responses so far. I think this has been a good discussion. And many have helped change my perceptions of DVC. Thank you.

No, DVC is not for us. But I can see how it could be the right thing for some.

Best regards. Good health to all.

dvcdudes
01-04-2001, 05:15 PM
We all know why we joined! Some people feel better saving some money and staying off site. Not Us. Some people don't want to keep going back to WDW. Not Us. Some people don't mind staying in an economy class room. Not Us. We get deluxe accomodations on WDW property and can go back every year sometimes 2-3 times / year. I did the math and came up with the figures and it isn't a great deal. You could get a cheaper timeshare off property. Dues are fairly high. Initial outlay is pretty high. SO WHAT! I own a piece of the magic. There's nothing like waking up and going to the balcony and looking out and realizing you don't have to go to Disney World... Your already there.
One last thing. I may sound nieve but in this fast paced world, I think some people forget that money isn't everything. I can honestly say that my DVC ownership is one of the best things I have done. I have a trip in Feb and I'm like a little kid waiting for the big day when we finally leave. DVC is definitely for me!


DVCDUDES
Owner BWV Feb 2000

calbayBWV
01-04-2001, 06:47 PM
I am selling everthing I own, quiting work, applying for SSI, moving into a cardboard box, and will eat only out of trash cans the rest of my life, its cheaper.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/anidragon01.gif

Feel free to send me an email :)

If you need help with your Disney problem click here:Calbay's 12 Steps of Disneyholics Anonymouse (http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=40009993&f=55009194&m=165091862)


My recent trip to the Disneyland Resort
Calbay's Holiday 2000 Disneyland Trip Report (http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=40009993&f=61209898&m=840099214)

Werner Weiss
01-04-2001, 07:27 PM
With the capital invested in our house, we could have a cash flow that would let us rent an apartment instead -- at least until the rent goes up beyond the income that our investment is generating. Oh, and the apartment wouldn't be as nice as our house.

With the capital invested in our DVC membership, we could have a cash flow that would let us rent hotel rooms instead -- at least until the room rates go up beyond the income that our investment is generating. Oh, and the hotel rooms wouldn't be as nice as DVC.

-----
Werner Weiss, Curator of Yesterland (http://www.yesterland.com), featuring discontinued Disneyland attractions

Gary OKW'94
01-05-2001, 07:00 AM
Playing with the numbers is fun, but what I remember most is the looks on my kids face the first year we stayed in a two bedroom at OKW. We spent the previous two years for 10 nights each at DxL and PO, and the space to spread out at OKW was beyond our imagination. My kids are grown now but I couldn't have replaced those summers (1994-98) with future money or future vacations, it had to be done then!!!

ronbrack
01-05-2001, 08:12 AM
Help me out here.

If dues increase at only 3% annually on 150
points, you will end up paying near $50,000 in dues alone over 42 years. Add this to the $10,800 in points and divide by 42 years and you get close enough to $10.00 a point for discussion purposes. If however dues never increase you are right on the money., Right??

jennybobenny
01-05-2001, 11:24 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume isjp isn't fully aware of the benefits of DVC ownership. By this I mean, along with the obvious choices in vacation destinations (OKW, BWV, WLV, Hilton Head and Vero Beach) our DVC points can also be used for other more 'exotic' vacations by making exchanges thru Interval International and Buena Vista Trading Company. Here's a partial listing of DVC vacation opportunities:

Feel like traveling abroad? Try the
~~World Passport Collection
20 choices in the British Isles
47 choices throughout Europe including Austria, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain)
23 choices in Mexico and Central America
13 choices in South America
12 choices in Canada
16 choices in the Caribbean
5 in Australia
4 in New Zealand
and various other destinations in Afria, Norway, the Philippines and Malaysia.

Going on a romantic getaway? Looking for a 5 star hotel? Look in the
~~Concierge Collection
27 choices throughout the US and Great Britain including some of the most famous names in Big city hotels, inns and world renowned spas.
Tanque Verde Ranch in Arizona
Boston Harbor Hotel in Mass.
Hotel Jerome in Aspen, CO.
Kapalua Bay Hotel in Hawaii
just to name a few.

Would you rather go on an African safari? An eco-trip? Rafting or Biking expedition? Alaskan cruise? Try the
~~Adventurer Collection
Tanzania
Costa Rica
Tuscany, Italy
France
Grand Canyon, Arizona

Last but not least, how about a Disney cruise?

Ok, you get my point. There are many other alternatives to Disney vacations. Isjp, let me ask you this. What would you do if you found out your vacation destination in Morocco was included in one of the DVC exchanges? Your $4000 would go alot further in DVC than in one trip to Morocco. Something to think about :)

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2030/snowbord1.gif
<font face="comic sans ms"><font color="ff69b4">Jennybºoºbenny</font>
<font color="4169e1">DVC Member: 3/99
Onsite: Poly '76, Contemp '98, BWV '99, CBR '00, BWV '00
Offsite: '74 '80 '82 '88
Next trip: CBR~Jan '01, BWV~June '01, BWV~Nov '01</font>
<a href="http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jsmith12/jillian&kylecharacterpage.html">Jillian & Kyle's Disney Character Website</a></font>

DebbieB
01-05-2001, 03:30 PM
You captured exactly how I feel about DVC. I wanted a piece of the magic and the financial sense was secondary. People who said I was nuts when I bought have shut their mouths now that they've seen it too!

Goofy's Mum
01-05-2001, 04:57 PM
I think it all boils down to choice. Either you like Disney or not. We could never afford to go to Disney twice or even three times a year if we stayed either off-site or in another Disney location. However, with the DVC, we are now able to plan two, sometimes three, vacations a year at Disney because our accommodations are already paid for the next 41 years. Averaged out, it certainly makes sense to join DVC. Our room rates never rise, we have incredible accommodations with incredible service, we have access to all the other resorts at will to visit or dine, we have a wonderful home base with several pools and the Boardwalk, and we are walking distance to two of Disney's wonderful parks.

It may not seem like a big thing to some people, but for those of us who know what we like and want to be there, it makes perfect sense to buy into DVC. By in large, we don't have to worry about second-rate accommodations. We don't have to worry about service. And we know that the Disney people are only too willing to go the extra mile to help us. Those are priceless features.

My brother has a time share at World Marriott. It's lovely to look at, but believe me, what a hassle it was just to get an extra towel or a roll of toilet paper. We don't have that problem at DVC, or at least we have never had that problem to date.

We may not all be rocket scientists. We may not all be major economic whizzes. We are, however, discerning people who have made decisions that are right for us. And whether you agree or not is your perogative. I think, however, that you have to "walk a mile in my shoes" before you can properly judge the intelligence of our decisions.

Just a thought...

ripleysmom
01-05-2001, 05:06 PM
I really think the piece that Ispj is missing is not having toured the facilities. What sold me on DVC was the not the studio, which is comparable to a hotel room, but the 1BR and up (especially the GV which I will stay in someday). I am just plain tired of staying in a regular hotel room, they're cramped and I want to spread out on my vacation. I also wanted someplace to make a meal. Schlepping my kids to find food at the end of the day is NOT my idea of a good time!

The last time we went to WDW we toured SilverLake Resorts which was very nice, however, it was about $3K higher than 200 points at DVC. When we factored in the savings in financing, their rate was about 17%, DVC was much cheaper. And I get to stay on Disney property. When I go to WDW I don't want to look at 192 or International Drive except in relief at not having to stay there.

I used to have the same mentality as Ispj, however, as I have gotten older I find that I am more willing to pay for my comfort and I feel that with DVC I can have my cake and eat it too!!

Kimberly-Lucas and Ripley's Mom

http://www.geocities.com/disneydesigns/wpaper/birdhouse-sm.gif
http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/dvcjoke.gif

normr
01-05-2001, 07:59 PM
PamOKW & Ripleysmom, you're great! Iloved your responses, my exact sentiments also, If DVC was just studios, I know we wouldn't have bought in, it was the WOW factor of the one bedroom and above accomodations that sold us, we were tired of the cramped hotel room type of accomodations (2 beds, small bathroom) plus we even tried a DVC studio once, but having to go to the pool area to use the washer and dryer and the ensuing assault outside said laundry room by the rude persons husband clinched it for me that I would never again stay in a studio.

If anyone who is negative about DVC obviously has never seen the larger DVC rooms, if they would just look at the one-bedroom and above then it would finally make perfect sense to them as the two ladies said.

normr
01-05-2001, 08:12 PM
One of the best things I love when I go "home" is the leisurely breakfasts even if is just bagels and coffee and juice on the patio overlooking the golf course fairway, it sure beats rushing to get dressed and running to a food court and stand in line to buy their expensive gruel and then hoping to find an open table just to have the opportunity to eat a meal.

I'm sure all us DVC owners get the picture!p

Pixieduster
01-06-2001, 06:05 AM
normr:
That is one of my favorite things too! There's nothing like sitting out on the balcony in that wonderful florida weather, taking in all that beauty around you. while enjoying a nice quiet breakfast. I wish I were there right now!!
We are so happy with our decision that we just added on another 100 points at WLV.

dianeschlicht
01-06-2001, 08:04 AM
It is always nice and quiet, and last year all three of trips we had accomodations in the same Southpoint area (completely by accident, we made no requests), so we got to know the wild life specific to this location quite well! A bunny lives between buildings there, and he is in the same place every morning and evening! :D

Disneydiane

robinb
01-06-2001, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>7) I reject all the comparisons to rack rates. I think comparisons to discounted rates that people actually pay would be more realistic.
[/quote]

FWIW, most people do pay rack rates. Especially now that the MKC is replaced with the DC. Even so, let's assume that that my $4215 rack rate was really a 20% discount (like that would happen over NYE 1999/2000 when I stayed :rolleyes:) I would have paid $3372 ($3742 incl tax) for the same accomidations.


-- Robin

PamOKW
01-06-2001, 10:22 AM
You're right Robin. One holiday stay and you've got most of your DVC paid for! There are no discounts at that time of year. I checked on the Resort board and discounts of 10-25% are sometimes available. 10% for DC and up to 25% for AP. But the AP discount is not usually available until the 60 day mark. Even with a 25% discount during value season the least expensive you could do is $203.13 per night for a studio at OKW...or more than $1,400 for a one week stay this year. Figuring a 6% increase you'll be at $1,500 by next year. Christmas Week an OKW studio will run $387.39 per night or $2,700+ for 7 nights.

[This message was edited by PamOKW on 01-06-01 at 04:13 PM.]

normr
01-06-2001, 01:37 PM
During our last stay when we came back early to rest, my wife, myself and older daughter crashed, but my younger daughter grabbed her walkman and her drawing materials and went out on the patio (OKW has real fenced patios, with a table and 4 chairs, a paddle fan with light) and went out there to relax and draw some of what she saw, When I woke up 2 hours later, she was still out there very content and having a great time, I remember peeking out throught the slats of the shade and getting this great feeling of how much happier we are when we're in our DVC home, if we would have been in a regular hotel room I would have never been able to witness this. :D

tony9000
01-06-2001, 06:35 PM
You said " if you invested the $25K in the market" you could use it to pay for your vacations. Well if you invested $25K in the market in the last year you would have about $12.5K now or less if you liked Dot.com's....DVC is not for everyone...If you don't like it don't buy it...We happen to LOVE DISNEY that's the missing piece to your puzzle...Those that "Love Disney" want to and need to stay in WDW. I for one have been 57 times and we go 3 times per year. If you use the points to your benefit, you can do great with 350 points per year. My 2 cents.....PS...I do understand your view of investing the money, but Disney room rates have gone up about 6-8% per year that's a good investment also.

tony9000
01-06-2001, 07:03 PM
I would like to do some numbers...

When I bought DVC if was $62 per pt. 350pts 21,700. Taxes etc..$1100 per year. I will even use the $25,000 number you taking about. Let's break it down to 42 years/$595 per year plus the tax, etc. Or about 1695 per year for 350 pts.

Now let's see what we can get for 350pts.

I happen to have 3 vacations planned so this will be easy.

May 6th-May 11. 4nights/ 5days Would cost $2,303.25 One Bedroom at the BWV's
Sept 9th-Sept14th 4nights/5days Would Cost
$1,665 One Bedroom at the BWV's
Dec9th-Dec15th 6nights/7days Would Cost
$2,534 One Bedroom at the BMV's

This is using my 350pts. Cost would be $6,502.

My average cost for this is about $1695.( I paid less and also sold back 1/2 my pts in the start to make my cost even less, but this only helps me)

Going to WDW 3 times per year for 42 years would be $273,000

My Cost is About $71,000.

OK now lets look at if the money was invested. $25,000 invested...Double it in about 10 years because you are removing money to go vacation each year $50,000 in Ten years, 100,000 in 20 years, 200,000 in 30 years and 400,000 in 40 years. Sorry we did not remove the cost of the Vacation each year. $65,000 would be the cost of your vactions for 10 years....Somehow this is not going to work. Your 25K invested is only $50K now and you need $65 for you vacation. Wait we have more...Increased cost of the vacation which is about 6% per year or another 4,000 or Total of $69,000 for the first 10 years.

DVC is not for everyone.

It is for me

Dizpro
01-07-2001, 07:54 AM
to debate the "gung-ho" DVCers.
To Tony-how many folks can vacation 14 days at WDW?-not many HAVE that amount of holidays-also i notice ALL your dates are when school is in session-THIS is a BIG reason many don't join DVC!
But the most "rabid" DVCers here are single(Pam),Grown kids(Doc) or hate the educational system(you know who!).

To say all the folks doing resale bought simply to resell is funny!Things change,people divorce,people buy before,kids ,mortgages,braces,college-in other words the expenses of life!

What I find simply ridiculous is the "rack rate " of these condos!I rented a beachfront condo this summer-1500 square foot-Luxury 2 br-on a holiday week for the total of $200 a night! and in the fall,winter and spring it rents for as low as $150!
Of course WDW is the big draw and everyone here thinks they will go EVERY year for the next 42 years and never tire of it - so i guess you all made the best decision for you.
:rolleyes:

http://disneyclipart.simplenet.com/Movies/Lady_and_the_Tramp/Lady/lady02.gif

lsjp
01-07-2001, 08:59 AM
Yes, Dizpro, that was how I was seeing it too. I mean, if you are going to stay at Disney no matter what the cost, well you might as well do DVC. But I've been doing some searches on not just luxury condos but entire luxury homes. You can rent these for a week for what Disney charges for a single night. I just don't see why it would be worth an extra $1000 per day to be "on-site" (according to these ridiculous rack rates). Especially if you were at Old Key West which is separate from Magic Kingdom, Boardwalk, etc. What is different about that than staying at any of the very nice places that are real close to Disney?

And do DVC owners never go to Sea World? Never go to Universal Studios? Never go to the Strawberry Festival? Never go to ANY of the other attractions in the Kissimmee/Orlando area? They are not "on-site" for any of those activities.

And if I want better accomodations than Disney or anyone else can provide me, I'll stay home. No Grand Villa of Disney's will be bigger or more comfortable than my own home. The little mortgage I have is less than one night at most of these DVC properties.

And 42 years of Disney, Disney, Disney, Disney, Disney? There is just so much more to do in the world. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE Disney too. There is no greater theme park in the world than Magic Kingdom (Splash Mountain!). But after spending 42 years doing nothing but Disney, have you ever seen Arches National Park? The Grand Canyon? The Monahan Sand Hills? Grand Cayman's Sting-ray sandbar? Been in a real submarine? Seen a real wild moose? Find wild deer so tame you could pat them? Wild deer, not petting zoo. Real wild deer. I've done all these things and much, much, much more. My life would be much poorer if I hadn't experienced all this.

Ironically, some of the best adventures are the ones that cost the least. Go figure.

bicker
01-07-2001, 09:12 AM
We're heading to Egypt in the Spring. That doesn't preclude us going to WDW to relax in the Fall. WDW isn't a "go see it" kind of vacation for us, but is a comfortable place to go and relax -- our beach house, so to speak.

Brian Charles Kohn
"in my own words" (http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker/index.html)
Some Imagination, huh? - Mickey Mouse

WebmasterDoc
01-07-2001, 09:13 AM
As has been repeated numerous times in this thread- DVC is not for everyone.

Since some are obviously more interested in the great value to be found in off-site accommodations, please check out Orlando Hotels & Attractions (http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&s=40009993&a=corfrm&cf=79209088) here at DIS, since your comments have now become off-topic for this Board.

Thanks!

Doc
DVC Board Co-Moderator

DisneyMim
01-07-2001, 09:51 AM
I am coming in very late on this topic, and I want to admit that I have not read all the posts throughly, but I want to add my 2 cents in here. First off, DVC is NOT for everyone. Second, after being part of this wonderful board for awhile I have found that, on the whole, DVC members are a more "travelled" group of people than your average person. I know I can't speak for everyone, but DVC ownership is only a part of our yearly vacation plans. We know a lot of people who own second homes in such places as Cape Cod, Maine, etc. (I'm from New England so I will use these places as my reference). We did not want to do this. Instead we choose Disney as our second home, and I do mean our second home. We truly look at DisneyWorld as our "other house", even our children talk of it as another place of residence. As other people have said we enjoy the spacious accomodations that only DVC can provide us. It's wonderful having our own bathroom and knowing that the children have their own bathroom as well. We love eating breakfast together and looking out over the golf course, or the boardwalk or the ocean. This is our precious family time, time that unfortunately we do not always have at home since we are all running in different directions in the mornings. You cannot get this in an average hotel room. Also we LOVE Disney, it is a big part of our lives, the magic we feel there is priceless to us and no other place in the world has given us as much enjoyment. And while we are on this subject, yes we have and do go to other vacation destinations. We have been to Hawaii, the Caribbean, national parks (where we have seen live moose very up close and personal), Washington DC, Williamsburg, etc. Our future plans include the Grand Canyon, and more travel out west. I guess what I am trying to say is that just because you love Disney does not mean that you cannot go anywhere else. In fact, one of the big draws for us to become DVC members was the fact that we could travel anywhere we wanted. Again, I want to stress that no DVC is not for everyone, but for some of us it is one of the best things we ever did. We became members on 1991, just when it began and I'm glad we didn't get too stressed and concerned with pure numbers. We went with our hearts, and we are so glad we did.

Jeanne
01-07-2001, 09:58 AM
I have found these 5 pages!!! of replys to be getting rather boring. It is sounding like we are trying to convince this guy that magic exsists. Scrooge is a hard sell, and quite frankly, I want the magic. As to Sea World, Univeral etc, been there, done that, missed the magic the mouse provides. Until you are a member, I don't think you understand the difference being a member makes. If you can't invision the magic it brings, Best Western is the place you should be. Too much energy wasted trying to sprinkle our pixie dust on someone who is just going to complain that it makes the place look dirty. I say invest your 25k in the nearest mm and enjoy the view from home. The rest of us will be squandering our fortunes in our "happy place", while you smile on the way to the bank. I don't need to take it with me, I want to enjoy it while I am here in luxury.

PamOKW
01-07-2001, 12:42 PM
Actually, I haven't been to Universal or Sea World or even the Belz Outlet! I have explored the Orlando area and been to the Bay Hill Invitational but believe it or not....I'm not really an amusement park type of person. I enjoy all the shopping, restaurants, shows and people watching of the Disney parks and resorts. I agree...it isn't for everyone but it is for a lot of people. Like DisneyMim I don't really think of it as going to WDW but as going to my Florida home. And that's actually what I compared it to at the time as well as to the cost of Disney vacations. I've got a furnished turnkey home on a Florida golf course and I can change the size of it whenever I want!

nestlejean
01-07-2001, 02:06 PM
We stayed iff site for 2 years when visiting Disney. The 2nd year we purchased DVC not EVER intending to purchase a time share. Once you stay on site vs. off site....well, it CAN'T compare. We feel the price we are paying to stay on site is more than to stay off site but the benefits are far outweighing the additional cost. We have access to transportation, we can walk to several parks and reorts (from BW) we have beautiful rooms with all the extras (1BR and up) and at a Disney resort, the service just can't be ebat. With DVC, you have to plan a little ahead depending on the time of year but we feel we can stay on site for a better price than wothout DVC over the long run at MUCH better accomadations. We don't simply have a hotel room!

Lisa P.
01-07-2001, 04:23 PM
Hm. What an interesting thread. Why so many posts with an edge of defensiveness, even hostility? There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you just *like* it! <IMG WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="15" SRC="/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif" alt="razz"> LOL! I buy filet mignon and jumbo shrimp rather than turkey for our Christmas dinner because we like it!

For those of you who would actually pay Disney prices on every Orlando vacation (or at least, for any DVC vacation every other year) - sure you are getting your money's worth. Anyway, value is as we see it and quibbling numbers only has to satisfy the buyer.

We sold our DVC because it was too much money for our family to keep it at the time, for what we got in return. Other timeshares, bought for $1,000-$3,000 apiece (with half the average maint fees) have given us wonderful vacations, often at the very same luxury resorts into which DVC'ers may exchange. Discrediting offsite timeshares while defending DVC is pretty pathetic.

Asking why DVC members pay so much is like asking why Beach Club visitors pay so much: Because you like it and the money is worth it to you. There's really little more to say. All the other explanations are available for much less $ outside DVC. Flexibility? Nothing more flexible than cash. Onsite? There's FW and the All Stars too. Condo? There's DI, Cabins at FW or offsite too. Prepaid or "forced" vacations? Offsite too (sometimes with food/sports inclusive packages). Luxury, beauty, amenities and space? Definitely available offsite. Golf course or pretty water view from the balcony? DI or offsite. Any amenity that you may find at DVC is probably available at some offsite resorts, besides that easy transportation to the Disney parks. Since so many DVC'ers spend comparitively less time visiting the parks, even that perk is "worth less," except in the owner simply liking that it is there!

Having stayed at DVC and non-DVC, having owned DVC and non-DVC, I see little difference except for transportation - especially for someone who enjoys spending some of their vacation time outside Disney parks. Over the last 5 years, the Disney money-machine has become less masked and more blatant, IMHO, and I (who used to vacation at WDW several times a year) still enjoy it but the gloss is wearing thin.

The better, newer villas offsite can be just as plush and the DVC can show signs of wear. We have been given friendly, efficient Disney-style service at other area resorts and we've gotten our share of burnt-out Disney CM's onsite too.

We used to think there was no comparing DVC to offsite. But that's not true. It's all in what you want, in what matters to you, in what you like. So you like DVC. And here this is a DVC bulletin board. LOL! :eek: Shocker. ;)

Some people here were courteous, honest and direct in their posts and replies. As a frequent reader here, I sure appreciated that. For the others... are you the same people who automatically answer most inquiries with "it's the best thing you'll ever do... buy, buy, buy" regardless of the person's individual circumstances? Please remember that someone who has tight finances or who is lured to the points so they can mostly visit during peak holidays and long weekends... DVC may actually be a disappointment. The happy campers post here. Those who've been disappointed are not likely to stick around. Just giving another opinion. :eek: ;) :D

tony9000
01-07-2001, 06:08 PM
I happen to be able to vacation many times per year...I also happen to vacation in other places..However....WDW is my favorite place on EARTH. Going into the "vacation home" thing..They are great, price is right, but you need to know all you can about them before booking something without seeing it(many of my friends have had bad times with vacation homes, yes it can happen with anything)...With WDW you know what you will get. Your right you will pay for it. Now as for investments...I did not want to bring this up in my posts above, but I own a Home in the Disney Area and rent it for an investment. I use the home when on business and other family matters, but when it comes to vacation I use DVC. Like many have said before DVC is not for everyone, but for those that love WDW it really is something to think about. I think all the post here are great ...All the best to everyone.

drb
02-12-2001, 09:21 PM
I really enjoy reading all the opinions of this group, pro or con. My husband and I are struggling with the idea of joining the DVC and have been struggling with the idea for years. We have gone back to Disney every year for the past 3 years and have thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. We don't ever see ourselves staying off property and as such the DVC seems the way to go. We have two small children and staying on property is a god-send in that situation, but I would stay on property even without the kids. However, now that we have gone so many times, my husband is getting a little sick of Disney and wants to take trips elsewhere, for example, Europe. In addition, we are only really starting out financially. We just closed on a home and we have tremendous student loans. You can imagine that it just seems insane to loan out even further for vacations.
My one real weakness when it comes to spending money is going to Disney. I don't have a lot of jewlery or high priced cars/clothing. I just wish I knew what to do. Buying into the DVC would mean taking out at least a three year loan for the DVC and prolonging our student loan payments an additional 3 years or more. Then there is the issue of convincing my husband that you can go to other places such as Europe and Hawaii with DVC points. Ultimately though he would readily join if he thought it would make me happy because that's the kind of wonderful man he is. If we continue to do Disney and other high priced vacations like Disney we are essentially throwing money away on the increased rates of accomodation. HELP!!!! Can anyone tell me what to do.

Caskbill
02-13-2001, 12:07 AM
drb, what a great post. This thread was hot and furious a month ago, but I believe your question really puts it into light. Purchase into DVC is a large committment, both financially and time. In reading all the posts of this thread, I believe EVERYONE is right. That's because DVC is different for everyone and for many it's the best choice they've ever made, while for others it's a mistake or the wrong choice to pursue.

No one can tell you what to do. DVC ownership is not a simple matter. Your financial situation applies only to you. Your family has only so much vacation time available. WHEN you can vacation is on your time schedule. WHERE you vacation is based on your preferences. There is no simple formula that will tell you whether DVC is right for you or not. No one can tell you. You'll have to make that judgment yourself.

However, I believe coming to this board is definitely the right step. Go through the posts, read everything. You'll find every opinion, every circumstance, every spin on DVC you can imagine here. Make a list of what you see that is also relevant to your situation. Record every pro, every con. When you have questions that haven't shown up, ask them here, one at a time, separately. You'll get lots of help. Be sure you have thoroughly reviewed all the FAQ's. As to your particular financial situation, do you use any financial software on your computer such as Quicken, or MS Money? If so, plug in the numbers and see what it means to you on a month by month basis. Tired of Disney EVERY year, then see what other options DVC might have, or not. If you see any value there, put it in the pro column, if not, then in the con.

As you'll see on these boards, DVC is not for everyone. The question is, is it right for you? Only you can decide that. Almost everyone who posts here has decided it's right for them, and somewhere, someone has experienced and can answer almost any question you may have. It'll be a lot of work on your part, and everyone on this board will help in whatever way they can. As you gather information, and answers, then at some point you'll know whether it's right for you or not. And you'll have gathered enough knowledge at that time to be comfortable with that decision.

No one is going to try to sell you on DVC. If all the features and benefits of DVC match your criteria for finances, vacations, and your individual needs, you'll probably purchase. If they don't match, then don't purchase, and have no regrets. But if it's a good match, let me say, a magical match (grin), then a future "welcome home" awaits your Disney vacations.

I hope this helps. Best wishes.
Caskbill

eva
02-13-2001, 02:41 AM
I believe that you hit the nail on the head. DVC is right for us because we wanted to stay in the 2-bedrooms at OKW every year. We bought 200 points which gets us a 2-bedroom for 6 nights/7 days during dream season. Right now with DVC financing we are paying right under $200 a month for the initial purchase plus dues. That is $2400 a year. A 2-bedroom at OKW is $525 a night during that time. That makes $3150 before tax and nearly $3500 w/tax. We are saving $1100 a year with DVC during the time of the loan. After the loan is paid off we will be saving even more, try about $2800 a year or more with inflation. But if a person has no intentions of staying inside WDW at a deluxe resort then DVC may not be for them. A lot depends on what type of experience and accomodations you are after when going to WDW. A person who has always stayed off-site and has no intention of staying on-site probably can not see the value of DVC.

DLVisitor
02-13-2001, 05:02 AM
Why is this SAME posting always showing up?

POLLY ANN
02-13-2001, 05:08 AM
I don't know, but why don't we just keep it on the first page, so in case someone new comes along and wants to know WHY we DVCer's are paying so much, they won't have to ask again! :D

http://a108.g.akamaitech.net/7/108/24/954ec432f3570d/disney.go.com/disneyvacationclub/images/members/rn_pic_1.jpg
http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/dvcis.gif
http://www.geocities.com/im_newhere/dps.jpg
DVC Member since 1995

BobH
02-13-2001, 05:20 AM
I am in the same boat. 2 kids in college etc. However, it seemed to us that DVC was a good way of stabilizing our vacation costs by geting into a system that would (after the initial cost) allow us at least 2 vacations a year at a fixed cost (annual maintenance). It was our way of continuuing the family practice of going to Disney and letting our kids go to Disney. They wouldn't afford it otherwise. It is obvious to me that DVC needs to appeal to you and make personal sense. The person that posted the thread starting this whole conversation again is a "curiosity."
If he is so sure it is a bad deal why waste the time to write such a long post. I think I hear a
small voice of doubt creeping into his argument...