Is this Racial ?

[susieh]

Consider this if you will..

When trying to decide who got the short straw for a job that had to be done but no one wanted, a manager (trying to keep it light hearted) used the first 2 lines of the old nursery rhyme 'eenie meenie mynie mo...' as he went round the team members.

A short while later he was summoned to his bosses office and told he was being reported for racial abuse and may be dismissed.

Reasonable punishment? Or not?

[emily1982]

You know what, i remember saying this rhyme when i was in my teens infront of my dad and i honestly didn't link it to being racist and the reason behind the rhyme. Think its abit OTT to give a formal warning, he wasnt being directly racist to a certain person there.

[jen_uk]

I don't think its racist and I think it was an over reaction the way it was handled. However, I googled it and apparently it does link with racism, a few years ago an American airline was sued because a worker used the rhyme in a joke with some passengers!!

[natalielongstaff]

oh dear me ! no its not racist.....in that context :confused3

[wideeyes]

The rhyme can certainly be racist and wouldn't say it, even the tiger version and would tell my DD to use another rhyme even though now the kids use the word tiger. I think it should be pointed out the manager that the rhyme is racist however I don't think he should be disciplined.

[thelittlemermaid83]

I don't think its racist, then again i cant even remember the whole of the rhyme lol.

[Lizzybear]

To be honest I didn't know it could be perceived as racist until I googled it now and read the wiki.. I'm sure many others could say the same. It's not particularly obvious so I think the threat of dismissal is a bit extreme.

[higgy66]

I would say it depends if he actually said the lines which contain the racist word. You say he said the first 2 lines?

If he did actually say that 2nd line then I'm sorry it is racist. If people continue to say these things it is still seen as acceptable and it clearly isn't.

My children don't know that rhyme as it's no longer said - I didn't know there was a tiger version.

However, I think he should have just been made aware of his "mistake" and that should be the end of it. Obviously somebody has been offended so in an ideal world the two people should be able to discuss this openly together and that be then end of the matter. If it happened again then fair enough - consequences made.

[wideeyes]

To be honest I didn't know it could be perceived as racist until I googled it now and read the wiki.. I'm sure many others could say the same. It's not particularly obvious so I think the threat of dismissal is a bit extreme.

I just read it on wiki and the version I remember from childhood is the Kipling version, hence why I think it is racist. I thought the tiger one was a later version to make it acceptable and for me that wouldn't off changed the original context of the rhyme.

[carolfoy]

unfortunately most childrens traditional rhymes, fables and fairytales have their roots in less 'politically correct' societies,
By bearing in mind that the language was common to use then and not deemed racially motivated you can argue that the rhyme is not racist. In this day and age that just doesn't cut it, any rhyme, nickname or adjective that someone finds offensive to themselves, (get me, I'm Cornish and couldn't care less about my straw chewing, tractor driving, surf bum stereotype!) is unacceptable.

[orlandothebeagle]

Political correctness in this country is getting beyond a joke. It is ridiculious.

I am sure if he did say that word(which by the way I could not bring myself to say) he did not mean it.

[wideeyes]

unfortunately most childrens traditional rhymes, fables and fairytales have their roots in less 'politically correct' societies,
By bearing in mind that the language was common to use then and not deemed racially motivated you can argue that the rhyme is not racist.

I would say that it is historical context that makes the use of the word in this rhyme racist. I would agree that the use of the word is not always racist on its own for example its used in Huck Finn because that was how people spoke then, however catching someone by the toe until they scream makes reminds me of slavery and violence . I have probably read to many slave narratives which I had to read for uni.

[mandymouse]

I think the only way I see this, is that I have never told that rhyme using that word, and as my girls are 18 & nearly 16, I have been aware for a long time not to use it. So I guess that deep down I have always found the word offensive, even in a nursery rhyme

[Grumpy John]

This country has gone to the dogs. Nothing can be said without someone taking offence. What happened to free speech?

It would be interesting to see who actually complained or was it a good old tittle tattle to get someone in trouble

Sorry but the whole episode is totally pathetic!

[disneyhockeymad]

When I was little (which wasnt really that long ago) and when we were in the playground we always used to use that rhyme with the word Tiger in it. We didn't, and indeed I didn't until I wiki-ed it about 2minutes ago, even know that another racist version of this rhyme existed.

Surely if your boss used the first line only, and used it in the sense purely to select someone and not in anyways hinting at being racist, which it looks like he definately wasnt then there is no problem with this. It's PC gone wrong, and it's not doing anyone any favours.

[Queenie]

When I was little (which wasnt really that long ago) and when we were in the playground we always used to use that rhyme with the word Tiger in it. We didn't, and indeed I didn't until I wiki-ed it about 2minutes ago, even know that another racist version of this rhyme existed.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who had no idea at all about the other version. I had to go and wiki it to find out what this thread was even about.

If the guy used the offensive 2nd line then that's definately not appropriate in any situation. If it was the tiger version then I'd have to say it's very debatable whether he should even have been diciplined. If he was young then he may, like me and Laura above, have been completely unaware that there was even a racial connotation to the rhyme.

[susieh]

The guy concerned is my husband. Yes he did use the second line - yes we learnt it as children and so that version was the one in his head. Yes he apologised as soon as he realised he had caused her offence. She refuses to accept the apology, she wants a disciplinery hearing so that's what she is getting - tomorrow.

He may lose his job, his reputation, everything.

He is not racist - he sponsors a child in the sudan - he has Indian friends (was asked to be 'an honourary woman guest' at an Indian friend's Hindu wedding) - but all that is ignored because someone in an open office environment overheard what was intended to be a lighthearted joke where the actual rhyme used was irrelevant.

In my opinion SHE is the racist - against a white person because he accidentally used an old fashioned out of date saying and then immediately apologised for doing so

[Claire L]

I agree times are changing and not necessarily for the better. We do not have reset switches and therefore what we learnt years ago remains often imbedded and hidden away but surfacing on odd occasions.

I am sure your husband meant no offence as he immediately apologised and I am sorry he is being treated so harshly, when often more important things are ignored :(

Hope all goes well.

Claire ;)

[Cyrano]

The rhyme can certainly be racist and wouldn't say it, even the tiger version and would tell my DD to use another rhyme even though now the kids use the word tiger. I think it should be pointed out the manager that the rhyme is racist however I don't think he should be disciplined.


This was my thoughts also. Most employers spend a while telling managers what they should and should not say. But it is difficult to remember what someone else will take offence at :)

[wilma-bride]

I'm sorry but I am in agreement with those that think there is no cause for the use of the word he used, regardless of the context in which it was used.

To me, it certainly has racist connotations and I think your husband ought to have thought carefully before he used that word, especially knowing that there was somebody present who may be offended by it.

I do think we have to be very careful what we say nowadays but, personally, I don't see anything wrong with taking the time to think before you speak.

[CustardTart]

...If he did actually say that 2nd line then I'm sorry it is racist. If people continue to say these things it is still seen as acceptable and it clearly isn't...
Absolutely agree...
I think the only way I see this, is that I have never told that rhyme using that word, and as my girls are 18 & nearly 16, I have been aware for a long time not to use it. So I guess that deep down I have always found the word offensive, even in a nursery rhyme
Same here, Mandy. Even as a kid, I remember not using the word but substituting a throat-clearing noise in it's place...

I'm sorry but I am in agreement with those that think there is no cause for the use of the word he used, regardless of the context in which it was used.

To me, it certainly has racist connotations and I think your husband ought to have thought carefully before he used that word, especially knowing that there was somebody present who may be offended by it.

I do think we have to be very careful what we say nowadays but, personally, I don't see anything wrong with taking the time to think before you speak.

Exactly. I'm sorry you feel your husband is being unfairly treated but I was under the impression that use of the word in question constitutes a racial slur whatever the context. IMO it's just unacceptable in this day and age...

[orlandothebeagle]

The guy concerned is my husband. Yes he did use the second line - yes we learnt it as children and so that version was the one in his head. Yes he apologised as soon as he realised he had caused her offence. She refuses to accept the apology, she wants a disciplinery hearing so that's what she is getting - tomorrow.

He may lose his job, his reputation, everything.


He is not racist - he sponsors a child in the sudan - he has Indian friends (was asked to be 'an honourary woman guest' at an Indian friend's Hindu wedding) - but all that is ignored because someone in an open office environment overheard what was intended to be a lighthearted joke where the actual rhyme used was irrelevant.

In my opinion SHE is the racist - against a white person because he accidentally used an old fashioned out of date saying and then immediately apologised for doing so

Sounds like he was thoughtless rather than racist, hope he gets on ok tom.
Why did you not say it was your dh in original post?
Let me know how he gets on,

[mark&sue]

I am so sorry you are having to go through this as this must be a nightmare for you and totally beyond your control.


Susan

[Natasha&Matt]

People are so pathetic!!

[susieh]

I do think we have to be very careful what we say nowadays but, personally, I don't see anything wrong with taking the time to think before you speak.

All I can say is you have obviously been very lucky never to have been in a situation where you don't have time to think before you speak.

[Netty]

This country has gone to the dogs. Nothing can be said without someone taking offence. What happened to free speech?

It would be interesting to see who actually complained or was it a good old tittle tattle to get someone in trouble

Sorry but the whole episode is totally pathetic!
I totally agree with you PC gone mad again...pathetic
The guy concerned is my husband. Yes he did use the second line - yes we learnt it as children and so that version was the one in his head. Yes he apologised as soon as he realised he had caused her offence. She refuses to accept the apology, she wants a disciplinery hearing so that's what she is getting - tomorrow.

He may lose his job, his reputation, everything.

He is not racist - he sponsors a child in the sudan - he has Indian friends (was asked to be 'an honourary woman guest' at an Indian friend's Hindu wedding) - but all that is ignored because someone in an open office environment overheard what was intended to be a lighthearted joke where the actual rhyme used was irrelevant.

In my opinion SHE is the racist - against a white person because he accidentally used an old fashioned out of date saying and then immediately apologised for doing so

I hope your dh doesnt lose his job over this :hug:

[susieh]

Why did you not say it was your dh in original post?

I didn't mention it was DH because I wanted to see how other people felt about the situation and therefore avoided personalising it at all.

Seems like most people see it as an unfortunate but not malicious mistake whereas others see it as being unacceptable and he should be punished the same as if he'd called her it to her face.

It's probably obvious from my earlier post how I feel about her now - to me she has made personal something that was not so - I won't say any more

[wideeyes]

Sorry but the rhyme is racist and she had every right to complain if she felt offended. I would think if the company didn't act they would be breaking the race relations act and could get done for discrimination themselves.

[jen_uk]

Ive only just learnt what the 2nd line is! I always thought it was catch a Tiger, if the original line was used then it is racist. However, I think sacking someone is an over reaction.

[joolz1910]

I would be shocked if anyone used that word in front of me. I think that it is a disciplinary issue but I would not like to see anyone lose their job if they realised the offence they had caused and were genuinely remorseful. There is a difference between a one-off error of judgement and systematic racist bullying.

[kieras nana]

i have just had to google it,to find out,what the word is.
i have never in my life,heard this rhyme,using that word & i would be shocked,if i had.
i could never imagine anyone,choosing to say it,in this day & age.
i personally detest the word & find it,one of the most offensive words ever.
should he be sacked,no,given a stern warning,yes.
tracy

[susieh]

I didnt make it clear that she was not one of the people in the team that was being chosen from. She just happens to sit in the same open office area.

But it seems that wouldn't make a difference to many people's views.

[disneyhockeymad]

At the risk of being shot down I have to say this is maybe a huge fuss over something that shouldn't be fussed over quite as much. Before you immediately shoot me down give me a minute to explain!

Had he meant it and said it maliciously, or indeed thought about it and still chosen to say it then yes discipline him, fire him, whoever says it deserves it. But I have been utterly convinced that he genuinely did not mean to say it racially and maybe yes he should have picked a better phrase but he said it without thinking and he as soon as he had he apologied, had he been completely ignorant it may have been a different story. I think this women is milking it for all she can get as horrid as that sounds. Yes now she has lodged the complaint they need to investigate it further but he does not need to get fired for a mistake he apologised profusely for straight away.

[orlandothebeagle]

At the risk of being shot down I have to say this is maybe a huge fuss over something that shouldn't be fussed over quite as much. Before you immediately shoot me down give me a minute to explain!

Had he meant it and said it maliciously, or indeed thought about it and still chosen to say it then yes discipline him, fire him, whoever says it deserves it. But I have been utterly convinced that he genuinely did not mean to say it racially and maybe yes he should have picked a better phrase but he said it without thinking and he as soon as he had he apologied, had he been completely ignorant it may have been a different story. I think this women is milking it for all she can get as horrid as that sounds. Yes now she has lodged the complaint they need to investigate it further but he does not need to get fired for a mistake he apologised profusely for straight away.

I certainly will not flame you.

[wideeyes]

I wouldn't criticize the woman as we don't know how she felt or how it may of hurt and upset her or what else she has had to deal with because of her race. I think if she felt offended she has every right to make a complaint as the word should never used and for that complaint to be taken seriously, people have fought for hundreds of years for her to have that right and to dismiss it as political correctness gone mad is offence to what those people have achieved.

HOWEVER I do think it would be a shame for him to lose his job over this.

[disneyhockeymad]

I wouldn't criticize the woman as we don't know how she felt or how it may of hurt and upset her or what else she has had to deal with because of her race. I think if she felt offended she has every right to make a complaint as the word should never used and for that complaint to be taken seriously, people have fought for hundreds of years for her to have that right and to dismiss it as political correctness gone mad is offence to what those people have achieved.

HOWEVER I do think it would be a shame for him to lose his job over this.

Yer I read my comment back afterwards and realised the words I used were a little strong I just couldn't think of any other way to put it. I'm taking nothing away from the struggle and plight that coloured people had to go through to achieve what they have, heck I studied it for a whole year at school, although this obviously cant come close to personal feeling at all I can sympathise and I have nothing but admiration for those who stood up and fought.

I think because none of us were there none of us can decide how either reacted and were feeling, me included, I just think it's a shame that our country has become as PC as it has so quickly (I'm not just referring to this event) especially when genuine mistakes happen and things slip out which weren't meant to and weren't properly thought through. I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say I've been using that phrase recently when deciding how to split chores with a very close coloured friend (I apologise if using the term coloured offends anyone.. and that wasn't meant to be sarcasm) and she took no offence to it at all, infact both her and I didn't even know what connotations it could have until today. Unfortunately we are in a society where any thing can offend anyone, which is such a shame.

[wideeyes]

Yer I read my comment back afterwards and realised the words I used were a little strong I just couldn't think of any other way to put it. I'm taking nothing away from the struggle and plight that coloured people had to go through to achieve what they have, heck I studied it for a whole year at school, although this obviously cant come close to personal feeling at all I can sympathise and I have nothing but admiration for those who stood up and fought.

I think because none of us were there none of us can decide how either reacted and were feeling, me included, I just think it's a shame that our country has become as PC as it has so quickly (I'm not just referring to this event) especially when genuine mistakes happen and things slip out which weren't meant to and weren't properly thought through. I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say I've been using that phrase recently when deciding how to split chores with a very close coloured friend (I apologise if using the term coloured offends anyone.. and that wasn't meant to be sarcasm) and she took no offence to it at all, infact both her and I didn't even know what connotations it could have until today. Unfortunately we are in a society where any thing can offend anyone, which is such a shame.

Just to add I wasn't having a go at you or anyone else on this thread I was just defending the womans right to make her complaint.

[disneyhockeymad]

Just to add I wasn't having a go at you or anyone else on this thread I was just defending the womans right to make her complaint.

Oh no I realised that, I just realised that my comment was a tad on the harsh side!!

[Netty]

At the risk of being shot down I have to say this is maybe a huge fuss over something that shouldn't be fussed over quite as much. Before you immediately shoot me down give me a minute to explain!

Had he meant it and said it maliciously, or indeed thought about it and still chosen to say it then yes discipline him, fire him, whoever says it deserves it. But I have been utterly convinced that he genuinely did not mean to say it racially and maybe yes he should have picked a better phrase but he said it without thinking and he as soon as he had he apologied, had he been completely ignorant it may have been a different story. I think this women is milking it for all she can get as horrid as that sounds. Yes now she has lodged the complaint they need to investigate it further but he does not need to get fired for a mistake he apologised profusely for straight away.
well said!

[Cyrano]

At the risk of being shot down I have to say this is maybe a huge fuss over something that shouldn't be fussed over quite as much. Before you immediately shoot me down give me a minute to explain!

Had he meant it and said it maliciously, or indeed thought about it and still chosen to say it then yes discipline him, fire him, whoever says it deserves it. But I have been utterly convinced that he genuinely did not mean to say it racially and maybe yes he should have picked a better phrase but he said it without thinking and he as soon as he had he apologied, had he been completely ignorant it may have been a different story. I think this women is milking it for all she can get as horrid as that sounds. Yes now she has lodged the complaint they need to investigate it further but he does not need to get fired for a mistake he apologised profusely for straight away.

I also would not flame you but do not accept that in the world today it is acceptable to hark back to what was acceptable in a distant past.

It cannot have escaped anyone that we live in a multi-cultural society and world.

I agree it would be harsh for this person to lose their job over this. Especially as their apology had been emphatic and immediate.
But some retraining and support about diginty of the individual and a better awareness would be in order :)

As always there are two sides. I feel for the OP who's husbands world has been thrown upside down. Similarly the person who complained I'm guessing never imagined that she would hear/witness this in a modern, accepting society.

It was not that many threads ago we were all decrying the behaviour of those parents regarding a children's presenter with disabilities. I'm sure their prejudices were not designed to offend or hurt :)

[crashbb]

At the risk of being shot down I have to say this is maybe a huge fuss over something that shouldn't be fussed over quite as much. Before you immediately shoot me down give me a minute to explain!

Had he meant it and said it maliciously, or indeed thought about it and still chosen to say it then yes discipline him, fire him, whoever says it deserves it. But I have been utterly convinced that he genuinely did not mean to say it racially and maybe yes he should have picked a better phrase but he said it without thinking and he as soon as he had he apologied, had he been completely ignorant it may have been a different story. I think this women is milking it for all she can get as horrid as that sounds. Yes now she has lodged the complaint they need to investigate it further but he does not need to get fired for a mistake he apologised profusely for straight away.

I didn't want to delete any of your quote, but I'm just asking about the bolded part.

It doesn't sound like he did realise that he had said something offensive and apologised as soon as he said it. From the OP's posts, it wasn't until he was hauled on the carpet that he even realised that it was a word he shouldn't have used and then apologised. I would have thought he'd have had an "Oh my gosh" moment as the word came out of his mouth and apologised to those around at that time.

I also really dislike people who say "he can't be a racsit/homophobe/whatever - his best friend is Indian/gay/whatever". Not all racists/homophobes/whatevers walk around in KKK robes. Not suggesting that the OP's husband is a racist, but sending money to a charity and being friends with someone from India doesn't preclude him from being one (or acting as one).

For the record, though I think that he shouldn't have used the rhyme that he did and that it should not have a taken a call to the office for an apology to be issued (not directly to the woman, as he didn't know she would complain, but to whoever was there at the time - if the woman could hear the rhyme she'd have heard the apology), I don't see this as a sackable offense. In the absence of previous problems, I think it is an over reaction on the part of his superiors.

For future reference - just count to 16 next time (it's the number of "points" you get with the rhyme).

[susieh]

It doesn't sound like he did realise that he had said something offensive and apologised as soon as he said it. From the OP's posts, it wasn't until he was hauled on the carpet that he even realised that it was a word he shouldn't have used and then apologised. I would have thought he'd have had an "Oh my gosh" moment as the word came out of his mouth and apologised to those around at that time.

He acknowledged he shouldnt have said it the minute the word came of his mouth - he didnt apologise to her personally until he was told he had offended her - if she heard the original slip up she would have been in the same place to hear the "Oops I shouldn't have said that" - how could he apologise to her immediately if he didn't even know she was listening to another team's conversation. Once he was told (not hauled over the coals - his immediate manager had the sense to know it was an unintentional slip up) he went and sought her out and personally apologised.

I also really dislike people who say "he can't be a racsit/homophobe/whatever - his best friend is Indian/gay/whatever". Not all racists/homophobes/whatevers walk around in KKK robes. Not suggesting that the OP's husband is a racist, but sending money to a charity and being friends with someone from India doesn't preclude him from being one (or acting as one).
Thanks very much for slurring his character and mine - I was the one who said he isn't racist because.......

For future reference - just count to 16 next time (it's the number of "points" you get with the rhyme).
We don't always have the luxury of being able to count to 10 before we speak

[wilma-bride]

I think there are two issues here. The first is whether what was said was inappropariate/racist and, I'm afraid that the answer to that is categorically 'yes'. In this day and age, the use of that word is inappropriate in any situation.

I think the second issue is whether the OP's husband should lose his job over it. And, in my opinion, going by the facts presented by the OP, no he should not. He made a mistake and used an inappropriate word, however, he did try his best to rectify the situation as soon as he realised he had caused offence.

I think my main problem is the suggestion that the woman who was offended by said word is in any way to blame and, again, in my opinion, she is not. She found the word offensive, made a complaint and requested something be done about it, which it is being. I think it is unfair to suggest she is in some way being racist in this situation as you cannot possibly know how she is feeling and what damage the use of the word may have done.

I am not suggesting, in any way, that the OP's husband is a racist but the fact remains that he used an inappropraite word in a most definitely inappropriate environment - and, as a manager, should be setting an example - and sombeody complained, which is their right. I sincerely hope that the management have the sense to see that he has shown remorse and tried to make amends and will let him off with a warning.

And I know it is difficult to think before you speak and I am cetainly not in a position to preach because I have probably offended plenty of people in my time by not doing just that. However, there are certain words that I would just never use full stop and so wouldn't even have to think about it before saying it.

I'm going to stop now because I think this thread could so easily get out of hand but I just want to say that I hope all goes well for the OP's husband today.

[Grumpy John]

Just to go slightly off the the original thread.

Your husband is in my opinion being disciplined for which sounds like an accidential slip of the tongue.

What about that small group of muslims in Luton who were abusing the Royal Anglian regiment who were parading through the town and the placards they were showing off. Nothing happened to any of them despite what they were shouting.

Appreciate two wrongs dont make a right but what is the difference between the two incidents. What would happen if one of the soldiers took offence to what was being shouted and complained to the police.

Whilst what was originally said was a bit sensitive, I honestly believe that there are those non whites (for a better way of putting it) who are very quick to scream racist rather than realise that in the majority of cases no harm was meant.

You very rarely hear of white people (for a better way of putting it) bringing racist complaints against others.

I am not a racist by the way, there is good and bad in everyone but I do honestly believe this country is going the wrong way in many things and that those in power do seem to be frightened of offending some of this countries citizens

Sorry for rabbiting on. I really really hope that your husband is just slapped on the wrist and is allowed to continue with his job. Good luck to both of you

[orlandothebeagle]

Just to go slightly off the the original thread.

Your husband is in my opinion being disciplined for which sounds like an accidential slip of the tongue.

What about that small group of muslims in Luton who were abusing the Royal Anglian regiment who were parading through the town and the placards they were showing off. Nothing happened to any of them despite what they were shouting.

Appreciate two wrongs dont make a right but what is the difference between the two incidents. What would happen if one of the soldiers took offence to what was being shouted and complained to the police.

Whilst what was originally said was a bit sensitive, I honestly believe that there are those non whites (for a better way of putting it) who are very quick to scream racist rather than realise that in the majority of cases no harm was meant.

You very rarely hear of white people (for a better way of putting it) bringing racist complaints against others.

I am not a racist by the way, there is good and bad in everyone but I do honestly believe this country is going the wrong way in many things and that those in power do seem to be frightened of offending some of this countries citizens

Sorry for rabbiting on. I really really hope that your husband is just slapped on the wrist and is allowed to continue with his job. Good luck to both of you

Off topic maybe but I also totaly agree with you on this one.

[susieh]

Outcome of disciplinary hearing is that there will be an offical warning for racial abuse placed on his record.

He is going to appeal.

I was brought up to believe that abuse was something directed at a person with intent - not this.

Apart from the anger I feel about this I am very sad that a good man has had his character blemished because someone can't accept an apology for a genuine mistake

[Grumpy John]

Trouble is there are an awful lot of people out their walking around with huge chips on their shoulders who do not need an excuse to complain about the smallest of things.

Great shame really.

[orlandothebeagle]

Outcome of disciplinary hearing is that there will be an offical warning for racial abuse placed on his record.

He is going to appeal.

I was brought up to believe that abuse was something directed at a person with intent - not this.

Apart from the anger I feel about this I am very sad that a good man has had his character blemished because someone can't accept an apology for a genuine mistake

Good luck with the appeal.

[wilma-bride]

Outcome of disciplinary hearing is that there will be an offical warning for racial abuse placed on his record.

He is going to appeal.

I was brought up to believe that abuse was something directed at a person with intent - not this.

Apart from the anger I feel about this I am very sad that a good man has had his character blemished because someone can't accept an apology for a genuine mistake


That is a shame that it will go on his record, however I have to say that, as with harrassment cases, whether someone has been the subject of abuse is very much in the eye of the beholder. While your husband may not have directed the word at her, if she felt uncomfortable by his actions then she had every right to complain - such is HR policy, I'm afraid.

I hope that your husband is able to get past this and get on with his job :)

[mark&sue]

From a completely differant angle. As a women I have had to work with many men (thoughout all my working life) who have made sexist comments and would never want to see any of them get into trouble. Women too have had to struggle. It was not that long ago we didn't even get to vote. In many walks of life even in today's society women are not equal. I very rarely take it personally when I hear a sexist comment, but if they actually meant it personally or tried to hurt me then perhaps I would take it further, who knows. As a women we have just got used to it. I am pretty sure most women on this board have at some time been subjected to a sexist comment and had to put up with it. Right or wrong I just thought I would throw this one in too.

I thought I would add this to the debate not meaning to upset anyone or belittle anyone suffering from racial abuse.


Susan

[wideeyes]

I would never put up with any sexist remarks. if women had put up with it not so long ago I wouldn't be at university now.

[orlandothebeagle]

I get sexist comments all the time at work, I would not dream of running and complaining, you have to take it as it is meant, If it was said with hatred then that would be differant.

IE the kettle wouldnt work, vet says,woman cant work anything electrical!
Sexist? yes probably but not anything meant by it.
I am sexist as well, men dont indicate, woman drive to slow and slam on brakes at yellow traffic lights.:rotfl:

[orlandothebeagle]

double post

[TracyK]

I was brought up to believe that abuse was something directed at a person with intent - not this.

Me too. Best of luck with the appeal.

Tracy

[Booknut]

If either my husband or I had said that at work it would have been instant dismissal guaranteed, our employers wouldn't care whatever the intention was or not, there just isn't any need to say that word.

I am glad your husband got to keep his job and I believe you when you say he meant nothing bad but unfortunately racism has nothing to do with his intentions or perceptions, its what the other person feels and experiences that matters. Otherwise we could all go around pleading ignorance or innocence whilst belittling and demeaning others.

[ariel75]

I just think it's a shame that things like this happen. If was directed at someone personally yes it's wrong but from what i see it wasn't. It was a mistake . We all make them no one is perfect.

[kieras nana]

i agree it was a mistake! but i also feel stronglyl,that it is not a word,that many of us,would find,just coming out,of our mouths,because it would simply, never,even be in our vocab,so to make a mistake,using that word,would just never happen.
i am the manager,of a pub & i would be totally shocked,to hear a customer,full of beer,use that word,never mind someone,in a work place!

[Claire L]

Shame other derogitory/nasty/abusive words, such as ****, are not treated as being so bad, especially when they were not learnt as part of a nursery rhyme many years ago and can only have been learnt to be used in such a manner.

Claire ;)

[waltfan1957]

I'm sorry but I am in agreement with those that think there is no cause for the use of the word he used, regardless of the context in which it was used.

To me, it certainly has racist connotations and I think your husband ought to have thought carefully before he used that word, especially knowing that there was somebody present who may be offended by it.

I do think we have to be very careful what we say nowadays but, personally, I don't see anything wrong with taking the time to think before you speak.

you only have to listen to rap music to hear this word on a regular basis but none of these rappers are accused of being racist im sorry but the worlds gone mad

[kieras nana]

Shame other derogitory/nasty/abusive words, such as ****, are not treated as being so bad, especially when they were not learnt as part of a nursery rhyme many years ago and can only have been learnt to be used in such a manner.

Claire ;)

i cannot bear that word,that and ****.i really dislike,hearing those 2 words:sad2:
tracy

[Lizzybear]

you only have to listen to rap music to hear this word on a regular basis but none of these rappers are accused of being racist im sorry but the worlds gone mad

I don't think it's the same when it's said by someone of the same race. Yes it does confuse things but from what I can gather it's used among the black community as a term of endearment, similar to mate. Chris Rock goes into all this better than I ever could in his most recent show ;)



Slightly OT but a while ago someone linked me to this piece on white privelige and it really challenged some of my perceptions, if anyone has the time/is interested then I really recommend giving it a read:
http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

[mandymouse]

Hi Everyone

I've edited out a couple of words on this thread. Could we please not turn this thread into words that aren't acceptable or try and get round the filter system with -- or **'s (btw - I hate both words too :()

Please just remember that this is a family forum

Btw I haven't issued any warnings or infractions, as I don't want to be heavy handed as this thread has been very interesting , and hasn't got out of hand

Thanks :)

[mark&sue]

Thank you Mandy, you are very right. actually I was also thinking that in the UK there are areas of the country where some groups of people are not used to diversity than others. My DH comes from Scotland and he says when he first came to London he was really surprised by how multi cultural London was.

I checked to see where the OP came from and would have thought this area would be fairly diverse, but am not sure. I would have thought here in our big cities we are well educated regarding different races and cultures and used to many different ethnicities but perhaps some smaller country villages may not and perhaps could still used words that many of us would never consider using.

I noticed earlier on in this thread someone used the word "coloured". I would never use this term and thought it went out in the 70s but perhaps different parts of the county are very different to London.

It is a VERY difficult subject as people are invarably not nice to people who are "different". Some people are bullied because they are "fat" , bald or even wear glassess, you can even get beaten up for wearing the "wrong football scarf", we defintely do not live in a perfect world.

I always believed that when we all mixed up there would be an end to racism one day.......but then we would meet up with people from other planets and the racism would start again!



Susan

[Cyrano]

I checked to see where the OP came from and would have thought this area would be fairly diverse, but am not sure. I would have thought here in our big cities we are well educated regarding different races and cultures and used to many different ethnicities but perhaps some smaller country villages may not and perhaps could still used words that many of us would never consider using.


I moved from a city a while ago to what can definitely be described as a rural area. In my younger days I am sure that both places used terms that nowadays could cause offence. In the smaller rural area I know that I am in the majority who find certain statements about people both offensive and racist. The size of the place is no excuse for claiming ignorance of acceptable behaviour :)

The world has definitely changed. Every class in the troops school has at least 1 non English origin language person.

[susieh]

You may be right that different areas use different words now and consider them perfectly acceptable or otherwise.

However, I think what is harder to forget is that those of us of different ages were brought up with rhymes or even with toys that are not allowed any more. When I was a child we saved the labels of the marmalade and jam jars for badges - to me those figures are children's toys - no more than that and I would never ever mean anything nasty by using their name - in fact I have to think twice to realise it has a different connotation these days.

My husband has a set of colouring pencils (drawing is his hobby). The new dark brown one is labelled chocolate but an old dark brown one is labelled using the old term - it was just a description when we were children and never meant more than that to us.

There are several words that were common language when I was growing up that are not 'allowed now' and there are others that were considered unacceptable when I was a child that you hear all the time now - eg bloody, hell, damn, christ, the 'f' word, and several others I would need astrisks to spell. If I had said 'Christ' as a child I would have been punished by my parents but there was never a problem using the n word. I think people need to accept that people use words that are normal to them and to their culture and don't mean any malice by it.

In answer to the comment about where I am from - I grew up in Portsmouth which is a naval city. I had chinese friends (many employed in the laundries on the ships) but I never saw a black or Indian person until I was about 12.

[joolz1910]

My parents are in their 70's and they have never uttered the 'n' word in their lives. The word hasn't been considered 'neutral' in their lifetime although it is regarded as more taboo now. I think we, as a society, need to accept that certain words are pejorative and that they have been used maliciously for decades to insult and offend people.

[hildasmuriel]

My parents are in their 70's and they have never uttered the 'n' word in their lives. The word hasn't been considered 'neutral' in their lifetime although it is regarded as more taboo now. I think we, as a society, need to accept that certain words are pejorative and that they have been used maliciously for decades to insult and offend people.

That N word was not so widely used in this country, but although I am nowhere near my 70s ;) I can remember mainstream comedy shows using other words (thinking of Love Thy Neighbour - shall we say the N-N word) and the audiences laughed. That word would now be considered vile and racist, but it is only 35 years since it was used regularly on TV. Think of The Comedians - a show where the comics regularly used the N-N word, P word, W word. Times have moved on, thankfully, but I know some elderly people who just can't 'get' that some words are unacceptable now.

[Cyrano]

I think people need to accept that people use words that are normal to them and to their culture and don't mean any malice by it.

I think a lot of what has been said is accepted. It has meant a change for the better and because of the past sometimes requires a few moments of thought to re-adjust to todays society.

I don't agree however that people need to accept that no malice is meant. Rather it is time for us all in this age of same sex marriages, multi-cultural society that a few more seconds of thought are required to think could this offend someone.

When I was little coming from Glasgow the biggest terms of reference was whether you were a right footer or a left footer, Billie or a Tim eg Prodestant or Catholic. Nobody meant anything by the comments ;) But they ultimately created conflict and divide. Nowadays there is no tolerance of this bigoted bile :goodvibes

[joolz1910]

That N word was not so widely used in this country, but although I am nowhere near my 70s ;) I can remember mainstream comedy shows using other words (thinking of Love Thy Neighbour - shall we say the N-N word) and the audiences laughed. That word would now be considered vile and racist, but it is only 35 years since it was used regularly on TV. Think of The Comedians - a show where the comics regularly used the N-N word, P word, W word. Times have moved on, thankfully, but I know some elderly people who just can't 'get' that some words are unacceptable now.

I agree - the 'N-N' word was considered more 'acceptable' and less offensive than the 'N' word and that is why it was used in Love Thy Neighbour. I also remember those shows ridiculing different nationalities - like Mind Your Language etc. But even they resisted using the 'N' word and that was 30 years ago!

[orlandothebeagle]

Hi Everyone

I've edited out a couple of words on this thread. Could we please not turn this thread into words that aren't acceptable or try and get round the filter system with -- or **'s (btw - I hate both words too :()

Please just remember that this is a family forum

Btw I haven't issued any warnings or infractions, as I don't want to be heavy handed as this thread has been very interesting , and hasn't got out of hand

Thanks :)

Could you please moderate the other threads:flower3:
I agree for such a delicate subject EVERUBODY has said there bit very nicely and without offence.

[mandymouse]

Could you please moderate the other threads:flower3:

Any particular thread ??

[waltfan1957]

[QUOTE=Lizzybear;30821029]I don't think it's the same when it's said by someone of the same race. Yes it does confuse things

So you think if someone off the same race uses the word its ok,

but surely if someone uses this in not the context it was taken in then that should be ok,

your right it does confuse things

[orlandothebeagle]

Then I will get more points:rotfl: :rotfl:
If I tell:cutie:
My point was thankyou for making a good job out of moderating these threads so sensibly.

[hildasmuriel]

When I was little coming from Glasgow the biggest terms of reference was whether you were a right footer or a left footer, Billie or a Tim eg Prodestant or Catholic. Nobody meant anything by the comments ;) But they ultimately created conflict and divide. Nowadays there is no tolerance of this bigoted bile :goodvibes

You seen a Rangers/Celtic match lately? :scared1: Even watching on the telly, the old chants can be heard loud and clear. :sad2:

[orlandothebeagle]

When I was little coming from Glasgow the biggest terms of reference was whether you were a right footer or a left footer, Billie or a Tim eg Prodestant or Catholic. Nobody meant anything by the comments ;) But they ultimately created conflict and divide. Nowadays there is no tolerance of this bigoted bile :goodvibes

Not sure it was they words that started the conflict, prob had not even heard of they words when the conflict started but they words DEFINATLY
keep the conflicy alive and kicking!!!
To be honest folks still use left and right without malice but not the other words,Billie or tim. Somebody last week asked me what foot i kicked with and when I looked at him perplexed he said he thought he reconized me from school and wondered if I went to cowdenbeath high(prod school)
No offence meant and none taken.