Some Thoughts on the Second Person Plural

[JohnEric]

As a result of a recent conversation with another member of this board, I have been asked to pass on my perspective on the term "y'all", and why I consider it to be of acceptable use.

Many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and Reagan was president, I was in college. One of the required courses was Greek (in fact, all of the courses for that year were based in Greek civilization, so the language course was, naturally, Greek), and my teacher explained to us the virtues of the word "y'all".

Many other languages make a distinction between the second person singular and the second person plural, including Greek. However, in English, the same word ("you") serves as both singular and plural in the second person. Therefore, one does not know if "you" refers to a single person, or multiple persons.

In order to properly translate the assigned passages, he would have us use "y'all" or "you all" in the case of the second person plural, in order to confirm that we had a proper understanding of what we were translating. Although it was not considered common usage, it was necessary in order to be precise. (However, contrary to popular rumor at the time, the last phrase in Plato's Republic was NOT an utterance by Socrates, "Y'all come back now, hear?" That phrase does not appear until Timaeus, as a reference to the forthcoming work, Critias.)

Since this particular teacher received Large Amounts Of Money to pass on this knowledge to us, I have to assume that he knew what he was talking about. Therefore, I consider it to be an acceptable term for English usage, and it would not be appropriate to condemn a person for its appropriate use.

As a side note, the term "ain't" was originally an acceptable contraction for "am not", although again, it is not in common usage. An example of appropriate usage is found in the phrase by that famous philosopher, Bugs Bunny, when he utters: "Ain't I a stinker?"

[sand2270]

isn't it like 1:30am where you live? that's a lot of thinking for 1:30am on a work night.

[JohnEric]

isn't it like 1:30am where you live? that's a lot of thinking for 1:30am on a work night.

Yes, it is, but I promised a friend on this board that I would Defend Her Honour and write an explanation of why she shouldn't be put down for using the term "y'all". As you may have already guessed, I have trouble expressing myself in few words. :teeth:

I think I will be getting to sleep now... need to rest up for another exciting day ahead. And, since it's close to midnight where you are (I think), please accept my thanks for responding to my little essay.

[sand2270]

no problem...I am about to go take some nyquil so I can get some sleep tonight.

and I don't know who would put someone down for saying "y'all"...meanies. :lmao:

[acm563]

:worship: You are a sweetie......Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hug:

I loved the explanation when you told it to me in person and it sounds even better in writing. ;) Of course you didn't have to stay up late to do this but I will tell myself that your "babies" were up playing and that was keeping you up anyway :laughing:

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

[buena vista]

As a result of a recent conversation with another member of this board, I have been asked to pass on my perspective on the term "y'all", and why I consider it to be of acceptable use.

Many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and Reagan was president, I was in college. One of the required courses was Greek (in fact, all of the courses for that year were based in Greek civilization, so the language course was, naturally, Greek), and my teacher explained to us the virtues of the word "y'all".

Many other languages make a distinction between the second person singular and the second person plural, including Greek. However, in English, the same word ("you") serves as both singular and plural in the second person. Therefore, one does not know if "you" refers to a single person, or multiple persons.

In order to properly translate the assigned passages, he would have us use "y'all" or "you all" in the case of the second person plural, in order to confirm that we had a proper understanding of what we were translating. Although it was not considered common usage, it was necessary in order to be precise. (However, contrary to popular rumor at the time, the last phrase in Plato's Republic was NOT an utterance by Socrates, "Y'all come back now, hear?" That phrase does not appear until Timaeus, as a reference to the forthcoming work, Critias.)

Since this particular teacher received Large Amounts Of Money to pass on this knowledge to us, I have to assume that he knew what he was talking about. Therefore, I consider it to be an acceptable term for English usage, and it would not be appropriate to condemn a person for its appropriate use.

As a side note, the term "ain't" was originally an acceptable contraction for "am not", although again, it is not in common usage. An example of appropriate usage is found in the phrase by that famous philosopher, Bugs Bunny, when he utters: "Ain't I a stinker?"

Very well explained John. However I've noticed there are times when "y'all" is also used for the second person singular, which apparently requires the use of "all y'all" to distringuish it from the second person plural. I'm guessing (and this is just a guess mind you) that this development came about in during the early part of the Roman Republic when both plebians (lower class) and patricians (upper class) became sovreign. Without knowing if one were a plebian or a patrician, the relative pronoun "y'all" was carried from its Greek origin into Latin to denote one (in the second person singular) who is a citizen of Rome, regardless of birth or social status.

[MOREMICKEYFORME]

OMG!!! My head is spinning....blah, blah, blah!!!
Does anyone else hear Charlie Brown's teacher?? "Wah, wah wah wah wah..."
:scared:

[acm563]

Very well explained John. However I've noticed there are times when "y'all" is also used for the second person singular, which apparently requires the use of "all y'all" to distringuish it from the second person plural. I'm guessing (and this is just a guess mind you) that this development came about in during the early part of the Roman Republic when both plebians (lower class) and patricians (upper class) became sovreign. Without knowing if one were a plebian or a patrician, the relative pronoun "y'all" was carried from its Greek origin into Latin to denote one (in the second person singular) who is a citizen of Rome, regardless of birth or social status.

lolrof....well I have to say I do not THINK I say all y'all, or at least I HOPE that I do not but I am certain if I do y'all will correct me... This is one of the first conversations John and I had when we met so he of course instantly became MY HERO:cutie:

[NH_Bubba]

OMG!!! My head is spinning....blah, blah, blah!!!
Does anyone else hear Charlie Brown's teacher?? "Wah, wah wah wah wah..."
:scared:

IT'S All Greek to me!

[acm563]

OMG!!! My head is spinning....blah, blah, blah!!!
Does anyone else hear Charlie Brown's teacher?? "Wah, wah wah wah wah..."
:scared:

IT'S All Greek to me!
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Well I guess that qualifies me as a GEEK (no R) as I quite enjoyed the convo and the post from both Tom and John...:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: but then again I think everyone who has met me knows that.... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[rebecca06261]

Hey Ya'll! (said in my most charming southern drawl) Don't forget, Shakespeare used "ain't" in several of his sonnets!

[feettklr]

Some Thoughts on the Second Person Plural

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a result of a recent conversation with another member of this board, I have been asked to pass on my perspective on the term "y'all", and why I consider it to be of acceptable use.

Many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and Reagan was president, I was in college. One of the required courses was Greek (in fact, all of the courses for that year were based in Greek civilization, so the language course was, naturally, Greek), and my teacher explained to us the virtues of the word "y'all".

Many other languages make a distinction between the second person singular and the second person plural, including Greek. However, in English, the same word ("you") serves as both singular and plural in the second person. Therefore, one does not know if "you" refers to a single person, or multiple persons.

In order to properly translate the assigned passages, he would have us use "y'all" or "you all" in the case of the second person plural, in order to confirm that we had a proper understanding of what we were translating. Although it was not considered common usage, it was necessary in order to be precise. (However, contrary to popular rumor at the time, the last phrase in Plato's Republic was NOT an utterance by Socrates, "Y'all come back now, hear?" That phrase does not appear until Timaeus, as a reference to the forthcoming work, Critias.)

Since this particular teacher received Large Amounts Of Money to pass on this knowledge to us, I have to assume that he knew what he was talking about. Therefore, I consider it to be an acceptable term for English usage, and it would not be appropriate to condemn a person for its appropriate use.

As a side note, the term "ain't" was originally an acceptable contraction for "am not", although again, it is not in common usage. An example of appropriate usage is found in the phrase by that famous philosopher, Bugs Bunny, when he utters: "Ain't I a stinker?"


John, you have too much time on your hands at night. LOL

[buena vista]

OMG!!! My head is spinning....blah, blah, blah!!!
Does anyone else hear Charlie Brown's teacher?? "Wah, wah wah wah wah..."
:scared:

Keep it up, see what happens..

[MOREMICKEYFORME]

Keep it up, see what happens..

Threat or Promise??? SA!!!

[buena vista]

Threat or Promise??? SA!!!

doesn't matter.. I'll make good on either. :rolleyes1

[MOREMICKEYFORME]

doesn't matter.. I'll make good on either. :rolleyes1

wah, wah, wah wah wah...;)

[JohnEric]

Very well explained John. However I've noticed there are times when "y'all" is also used for the second person singular, which apparently requires the use of "all y'all" to distringuish it from the second person plural. I'm guessing (and this is just a guess mind you) that this development came about in during the early part of the Roman Republic when both plebians (lower class) and patricians (upper class) became sovreign. Without knowing if one were a plebian or a patrician, the relative pronoun "y'all" was carried from its Greek origin into Latin to denote one (in the second person singular) who is a citizen of Rome, regardless of birth or social status.

I agree completely.

"Illegitimi non carborundum," I always say.

[knewton64]

As a result of a recent conversation with another member of this board, I have been asked to pass on my perspective on the term "y'all", and why I consider it to be of acceptable use.

Many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, and Reagan was president, I was in college. One of the required courses was Greek (in fact, all of the courses for that year were based in Greek civilization, so the language course was, naturally, Greek), and my teacher explained to us the virtues of the word "y'all".

Many other languages make a distinction between the second person singular and the second person plural, including Greek. However, in English, the same word ("you") serves as both singular and plural in the second person. Therefore, one does not know if "you" refers to a single person, or multiple persons.

In order to properly translate the assigned passages, he would have us use "y'all" or "you all" in the case of the second person plural, in order to confirm that we had a proper understanding of what we were translating. Although it was not considered common usage, it was necessary in order to be precise. (However, contrary to popular rumor at the time, the last phrase in Plato's Republic was NOT an utterance by Socrates, "Y'all come back now, hear?" That phrase does not appear until Timaeus, as a reference to the forthcoming work, Critias.)

Since this particular teacher received Large Amounts Of Money to pass on this knowledge to us, I have to assume that he knew what he was talking about. Therefore, I consider it to be an acceptable term for English usage, and it would not be appropriate to condemn a person for its appropriate use.

As a side note, the term "ain't" was originally an acceptable contraction for "am not", although again, it is not in common usage. An example of appropriate usage is found in the phrase by that famous philosopher, Bugs Bunny, when he utters: "Ain't I a stinker?"

.....Be sure & say, "How Y'all Are!" :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[buena vista]

"Illegitimi non carborundum," I always say.

Classic expression. Although at first glance, it might look like an indictment of the low-carb diet craze. :lmao:

[acm563]

I agree completely.

"Illegitimi non carborundum," I always say.

Classic expression. Although at first glance, it might look like an indictment of the low-carb diet craze. :lmao:

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Just dont try posting it in English on the disboards :) or you get this ...******** (and I censored myself) :goodvibes

[626ish]

Don't forget - there is an all-inclusive plural of y'all when referring to multiple groups - "All y'all". A well practiced Tennessean... er... Greek Philosopler... can drag this out into five syllables or more.

Not that I would know, living in the only county in TN without a stoplight, with more cows than people roaming around. *sigh* I love the country :)

[JDUCKY]

Don't forget - there is an all-inclusive plural of y'all when referring to multiple groups - "All y'all". A well practiced Tennessean... er... Greek Philosopler... can drag this out into five syllables or more.

Not that I would know, living in the only county in TN without a stoplight, with more cows than people roaming around. *sigh* I love the country :)

I was about to chime in with the "all y'all" when I saw this thread!

Ya beat me to it!

[acm563]

Don't forget - there is an all-inclusive plural of y'all when referring to multiple groups - "All y'all". A well practiced Tennessean... er... Greek Philosopler... can drag this out into five syllables or more.

Not that I would know, living in the only county in TN without a stoplight, with more cows than people roaming around. *sigh* I love the country :)

lol, well I live in Roy Clarkes hometown so the ultimate in "country" and for those 'younguns' who have no idea who Roy Clarke is ask your parents or google Hee Haw :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Lori of the Lodge]

As a southern lady, I totally understand the significance of y'all in addressing two or more people or referring to two or more people. But what about you-uns (yōō'ənz)-- particularly common among older, rural speakers in Appalachian states?

Got an explanation for that one? ;)

[ttester9612]

Okay y'all.....you can tell some ppl have to much time on their hands. :lmao:

As for you-uns, it sounds like a word to me....in fact here's the definition from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000

"The form uns, derived from ones, occurs in you-uns and also young-uns, “young ones, children.” The use of young-uns is common in a number of varieties of English, particularly among older, more rural speakers in Appalachian states. Ones becomes uns through the deletion of an initial (w) sound that is pronounced but not represented in the spelling of ones. Initial (w) sounds may also be deleted in vernacular Southern varieties in the verb was, as in She's here last night for She was here last night. The loss of the initial (w) on ones and was is simply an extension of the process, common in informal Standard English, whereby the initial (w) is lost from the helping verbs will and would, as in He'll go tomorrow for He will go tomorrow and He'd go if I asked him for He would go if I asked him." :goodvibes

[626ish]

As a southern lady, I totally understand the significance of y'all in addressing two or more people or referring to two or more people. But what about you-uns (yōō'ənz)-- particularly common among older, rural speakers in Appalachian states?

Got an explanation for that one? ;)

Yeah - mountain folk are odd folk. :rotfl:

[JDUCKY]

Yeah - mountain folk are odd folk. :rotfl:

I've seen my share of odd city folk, too! :)

[JDUCKY]

Don't forget - there is an all-inclusive plural of y'all when referring to multiple groups - "All y'all". A well practiced Tennessean... er... Greek Philosopler... can drag this out into five syllables or more.

Not that I would know, living in the only county in TN without a stoplight, with more cows than people roaming around. *sigh* I love the country :)

I just remembered something about "all y'all".

Seems that is often associated with a negative connotation. Such as:

"All y'all kin just go to heh-ell!"


:)

[acm563]

I just remembered something about "all y'all".

Seems that is often associated with a negative connotation. Such as:

"All y'all kin just go to heh-ell!"


:)

:goodvibes Somehow I do not think that was quite what JohnEric envisioned when he started this thread ;) No Southern hospitality in that whatsoever...:cool2:

(and btw have a wonderful time this weekend):dance3:

[626ish]

I just remembered something about "all y'all".

Seems that is often associated with a negative connotation. Such as:

"All y'all kin just go to heh-ell!"

:)

Just be sure to note the difference in:

"Where y'all eatin'?" and
"Where all y'all eatin?"

The first means "lets eat together when we get out of church - where do you want to go?"

The second means "what are your plans for eating for the next week, since you will be at Disney World and probably touring World Showcase every night" :)


(Also note - it's pronounced "HAY-ell".)

[DisTeach]

However, with the derivation of the English language from its far roots established in Latin and transforming by means of the Nords, Anglo-Saxons, etc., "ya'll" has now emerged into the realm of colloquialisms and not deemed acceptable in standard formalized writing. Go ahead and "ya'll" it up conversationally.

Is this what happens when I go on a break from work for a while?... lol Also, I'm a Yankee to boot. :goodvibes

[acm563]

While I am all for proper grammar and sentence structure in any type of formal writings or letters I will always struggle with how the term y'all can be considered poor spoken grammar.Since “proper” English doesn’t have a distinctive 2nd person plural personal pronoun, and since “you” and “all” are legitimate English words, why not accept the term as “proper.” When written the way the word is intended in my usage, y'all, it is a simple contraction of you and all, no different than don't for do not. I have teased a lot of my friends on here about the misspelling of my favorite word, because when we spell it ya'll it then takes on a whole different meaning and no longer means you all. Now on the other hand ,the term "youse" guys is confusing to me completely...:lmao: :lmao: I have definitely enjoyed everyone's thoughts and comments on the term y'all tho, but I have to admit that even if you could prove to me that it was not proper English I doubt it would change anymore than my accent along with it can change....:lmao: I have to laugh when I think back to 1993 when I moved back here and was teased for my Midwestern/Northern accent and had to struggle and listen closely to understand my southern friends and now I am "one of them" ;)
Y'all have a Happy New Year !!! :grouphug:

[seashoreCM]

As an alternative, your teacher could well have instructed you all to write out "you singular" and "you plural" where applicable.

What you are told to write down in analytical documents is not necessarily what is proper in polite society.

[NJtoATL]

I have never used the term "y'all". It just sounds bad to me. :confused3 Thank you for the background history on the term. :thumbsup2 I will continue saying you all but I will never say "y'all".

[serinlea]

Never had a problem with y'all, though I tend to use "you guys" myself. However, I draw the line at "yuns"/"you-uns". *shudder* Of course, that turned out to be THE 2nd-person-plural of choice among my rural in-laws!

I also have no qualms about using a singular "they" to refer to someone of indeterminate gender. The technical rule making that a no-no is fairly recent. If it was good enough for Shakespeare and Austen, it's good enough for me. :)

[black562]

As someone from West Virginia, "y'all" is required usage!!! At any rate, I tend not to worry about proper grammer when I'm having fun chats on message boards such as this.

That said, y'all have a happy new year!!! :thumbsup2

[Buckeyemouse]

Try this!!



Y'uze guys have a Disney Day!

[black562]

So how y'all are? Y'all been having a good time in the chat room yes?