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View Full Version : Who watched 60 minutes? Another mortgage meltdown coming


luvthatdisney
12-15-2008, 05:11 AM
I watched 60 minutes last night - usually I dont - but I was waiting for the Survivor finale. I was horrified to see a story about a new mortgage crisis that should start affecting the economy in 2010. It was a very scary story and is the headline on CBSnews. com if you want to check it out.

It all stems from "Alt-A" and "option ARM" loans that were taken out in the last few years. They are another aspect of the sub prime lending debacle, which most news stories I have seen show to be on the downswing now. The person interviewed stated that some of these loans have already defaulted and the reset date has not even arrived. They stated the reset dates of these loans would begin in 2010 and with the track record for defaults they already have on them - once the payment grows at reset - about 50% to 70% of people with these loans will default. So we have not seen the end of the mortgage mess.

It really worries me as these mortgage industry gurus forcast the economy to get even worse in 2010 due to this. Not just the huge amount of defaults/foreclosures, but the influx of property for sale will cause the property values to severely decline.

I am not the most financially savy person, but I feel worried about this. Did anyone else see this last night? How do you feel about it. I know I can only watch out for me and my family, but just another thing to worry about.

dclfun
12-15-2008, 05:56 AM
I saw the show too. It appeared that most of these loans were sold to investors buying multiple properties on the hopes that real estate prices would continue to escalate before their interest rates reset. Most were interest only loans with nothing going toward principle. Although it WILL hurt housing prices and values further I don't feel sorry for investors- they gambled and lost.---Kathy

rentayenta
12-15-2008, 07:07 AM
I saw it and I don't feel sorry for some investors either. Those that bought with the intention of riding the housing wave and sticking it to the buyer did this to themselves. Karma.

cats mom
12-15-2008, 07:37 AM
I didn't catch the segment on 60 minutes, but I've been keeping my eye on this for awhile since there's no doubt it will hit my area big time.

Investors involved in it; yes, but Alt A and option ARM loans were huge in parts of the country with high prices as well.

IIRC the average price to income ratio in my area hovered around 9x at the height of the frenzy and LTV percentages were way high too. People were buying far more house than they could legitimately afford and with none of their own money in the game. Crazy stuff!

Not many people can afford to hold onto a house that costs 9x their income long term, unless they're counting on insane rates of appreciation to keep them afloat that is. The re-fi business was huge here.

The scary thing is, contrary to what I keep hearing on the news, the insanity seems to be continuing here. My neighbor is a realtor and he knows of folks who are still getting 100% financing deals at crazy high price to income ratios. Just more poor, unsuspecting, duped homeowners; who are foreclosures waiting to happen, that taxpayers will get to bail out. :mad:

pandora174
12-15-2008, 07:42 AM
I try not to judge but this happened to my on last 2 houses that I rented (so I'm a little irritated). The first townhouse the owner assured us he bought 2 townhomes as long term investmenets. When the lease was up for renewal, he stopped returning my calls. I had to send a certified letter until he fianlly told me he had to sell b/c he misjudged the market & couldn't afford the 2 mortgages. So we moved, the 2nd homeowner, told me nothing & one day I was served with his foreclosure papers. Turns out he had 5 properties, all rentals & the tenants knew nothing about this. He was pocketing the rent money. I was lucky in the sense that on the first one I got my deposit back in full & on the 2nd house (owner had no money :headache: ) but he agreed to let me live out the last month instead of paying rent. Mind you I found these brand new homes through a reputable real estate agent & this all happened in the first YEAR . I am thankfully renting now from a building co. directly that built new homes expressly for leasing & is run by their own property management co. But for some of these investors I don't feel sorry for at all.

sb1997
12-15-2008, 07:43 AM
I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of mortgages, but if these ARM's are scheduled to reset around 2010 and they are expecting a large portion of the mortgages to default once the payments increase, then the lenders need to be proactive not reactive. Mortgage rates are very low right now and lenders could develop incentives for consumers that will refinance with a fixed rate mortgage. It may cost the lenders/ borrowers money now, but imagine what it could save in the long run. Financial institutions depend on the profit from interest and if a large portion of the mortgages default, then the financial institutions won't have the earnings and the cycle will repeat the 2008 financial mess.

JonS99
12-15-2008, 08:19 AM
I saw it and I don't feel sorry for some investors either. Those that bought with the intention of riding the housing wave and sticking it to the buyer did this to themselves. Karma.

So the Barry Obama message is to pick and choose who we feel sorry for in economic hard times???

Princess_Michelle
12-15-2008, 08:48 AM
I watched 60 minutes last night - usually I dont - but I was waiting for the Survivor finale. I was horrified to see a story about a new mortgage crisis that should start affecting the economy in 2010. It was a very scary story and is the headline on CBSnews. com if you want to check it out.

It all stems from "Alt-A" and "option ARM" loans that were taken out in the last few years. They are another aspect of the sub prime lending debacle, which most news stories I have seen show to be on the downswing now. The person interviewed stated that some of these loans have already defaulted and the reset date has not even arrived. They stated the reset dates of these loans would begin in 2010 and with the track record for defaults they already have on them - once the payment grows at reset - about 50% to 70% of people with these loans will default. So we have not seen the end of the mortgage mess.

It really worries me as these mortgage industry gurus forcast the economy to get even worse in 2010 due to this. Not just the huge amount of defaults/foreclosures, but the influx of property for sale will cause the property values to severely decline.

I am not the most financially savy person, but I feel worried about this. Did anyone else see this last night? How do you feel about it. I know I can only watch out for me and my family, but just another thing to worry about.

I haven't read the rest of the replies, and I don't want to offend anyone, :thumbsup2 , BUT, I'm glad this is happening, I live in suburbs of DC and house prices are still outrageous.... I can't WAIT for them to hit rock bottom so I can buy one... we have been renting b/c we know we can't afford a nice house with me staying home AND sending DS to private school AND take vacations every year, so we wait.... I'm not going to put my child in daycare, or in public school, or not take any vacations just to buy an overpriced house.... so we wait. And it's about time, is all I have to say... :cool1:

Kay1
12-15-2008, 10:03 AM
So the Barry Obama message is to pick and choose who we feel sorry for in economic hard times???


What a rude and inapprorpriate remark! I believe the poster was expressing her own opinion which she should be allowed to do without harrassment.

eliza61
12-15-2008, 10:10 AM
I saw it and I don't feel sorry for some investors either. Those that bought with the intention of riding the housing wave and sticking it to the buyer did this to themselves. Karma.

Unfortunately Rentayenta, we all end up paying the cost some kind of way.


So the Barry Obama message is to pick and choose who we feel sorry for in economic hard times???


:offtopic: Ok we get it, you don't like Obama, he's the Antichrist. He's responsible for every thing from global warming to my too tight girdle. Ok, but could you please stop using him for an answer for each and every single topic. Rentayenta said absolutely nothing about BUSH, OBAMA, Republican or Democratic. She made a reply about irresponsible behaviour which is the one thing that is bipartisan.

Give it a rest. PLEASE

mjh8955
12-15-2008, 10:13 AM
I saw the segment last night. One woman that was interviewed said she had bought several properties over the last few years as investments and when asked if she had read the contracts before signing her answer was no, she was too busy. Now she is losing them due to the type of financing she agreed to. ????

mombare
12-15-2008, 10:48 AM
I saw the segment last night. One woman that was interviewed said she had bought several properties over the last few years as investments and when asked if she had read the contracts before signing her answer was no, she was too busy. Now she is losing them due to the type of financing she agreed to. ????

This is the part I saw also...really annoyed me. I don't care who is to blame, but if you purchase a property without reading or understanding what you are agreeing to, you need a sign. ;) My husband is a builder and we have worked really hard to make responsible decisions. There is a lot of personal responsibility/greed involved in the decisions many people made, at least in that specific situation.

prncess674
12-15-2008, 10:51 AM
I haven't read the rest of the replies, and I don't want to offend anyone, :thumbsup2 , BUT, I'm glad this is happening, I live in suburbs of DC and house prices are still outrageous.... I can't WAIT for them to hit rock bottom so I can buy one... we have been renting b/c we know we can't afford a nice house with me staying home AND sending DS to private school AND take vacations every year, so we wait.... I'm not going to put my child in daycare, or in public school, or not take any vacations just to buy an overpriced house.... so we wait. And it's about time, is all I have to say... :cool1:Don't count on DC prices hitting anything close to a bargain basement price. DC is amazingly resistent to the market. Good or bad the government will always be here. If you want bargain basement housing move to Detroit.

eliza61
12-15-2008, 11:11 AM
I saw the segment last night. One woman that was interviewed said she had bought several properties over the last few years as investments and when asked if she had read the contracts before signing her answer was no, she was too busy. Now she is losing them due to the type of financing she agreed to. ????

This is the part I saw also...really annoyed me. I don't care who is to blame, but if you purchase a property without reading or understanding what you are agreeing to, you need a sign. ;) My husband is a builder and we have worked really hard to make responsible decisions. There is a lot of personal responsibility/greed involved in the decisions many people made, at least in that specific situation.


Unfortunately guys personal responsibility left the building (bad pun, sorry).

The big problem is that these loans were bundled and sold as investments so when they begin to default the investments they were tied to go under. The banks that own these properties go under and the ripple effect begins. Stock market loses value, corporations that brought these investments go under, so forth and so on. Just think, if you have a 401K or a college fund that is tied to the stock market and you've just lost 30% of your value. :scared1: That's what we are seeing now. What do you do, you stop spending, companies start laying off, credit cards start uping intrest rates or cutting limits. It's all entwined. :eek:

TheRustyScupper
12-15-2008, 11:13 AM
1) Actually, the story only told part of the story.
2) There several different foreclosure triggers coming.
. . . as weird mortgages, like Alt-A hit, mortgages will foreclose
. . . as people are laid-off, even 30-yr, mortgages will foreclose
. . . as business owners are laid off their homes,mortgages will foreclose
. . . as businesses close the commercial properties, mortgages will foreclose
. . . as people cna no longer handle their credit card load and/or car loans, mortgages will foreclose


It is certainly a bad thing. However, this realignment was necessary.
. . . Real estate has been over priced for far too long.
. . . People who should never been able to qualify for mortgages had money heaped upon them.
. . . People traded cars far too quickly due to cheap money, and are now upside-down on their car loans.
. . . The bubble HAD to burst sometime.
. . . It is time for folks to live within their means, like many of their parents told them to do.
. . . It is not just a case where people can blame the credit crunch on ARM's.
. . . The loans issue now is that entities like pension funds do not want to buy car loan paper - it isn't even a bank issue anymore.

MickeyMomOfThree
12-15-2008, 11:29 AM
I didn't see it wither but I have to amke one comment.
We live in a 1000 sf house. It is old, needs lots of work that we have been doing very slowly over the almost 13 years we have lived here. When we bought the house we had one child, we now have 3. We are very overcrowded and the neighborhood isn't the best BUT, it's what we can afford. Would I love a bigger house, would I love one that is fully functioning not needs everything worked on, would I love more than 1 bathroom (I have 3daughters, I think you know the answer!:lmao: )
I would love all of that but we were realistic when we bought our home. We feel as though we are lucky to have a home, many are not so lucky. It is sad when people loose their house, but you have to be honest about what you can afford morgage wise and I hope these bad times teach younger generations this lesson.
My house is worth just over what my husband makes in a year (I am a SAHM). Even with that our budget is still tight between taxes, insurance, cars, and all the other bills we all have, plus the cost of haing 3 kids. :scared1: I can't imagine some of those morgages that are many times what we have.

I hate to think of things getting any worse, but maybe this will teach a valuable lesson to those younger generations so they don't repeat our mistakes.

Strangeite
12-15-2008, 11:35 AM
I work for a law firm in which we represent many of the nations largest banks in their multi-milliondollar commercial real estate loan transactions. Let me tell you the last month has been weird. At the height of the "credit freeze" we were slow but still doing two or three loans a week, but now I have had only one in the last three weeks. And it was for a regional bank and only for $1,750,000.00. That is a very small amount to be crossing my desk.

I was talking to a VP of a large national bank and there was almost panic in his tone. I hope we come out of this soon, but I am afraid it's going to get worse. I don't think we have seen the start of the collapse of the commercial real estate market.

DawnM
12-15-2008, 11:52 AM
Well, what upsets me is that people who DID buy what they COULD afford are losing jobs and still losing homes. It isn't just the "stick it to the guy who over-bought!" We are ALL affected by this.

Dawn

MickeyMomOfThree
12-15-2008, 11:58 AM
Well, what upsets me is that people who DID buy what they COULD afford are losing jobs and still losing homes. It isn't just the "stick it to the guy who over-bought!" We are ALL affected by this.

Dawn


I agree with you on this, I guess I lost sight of this because lately you hear so many stories of the "overbuyers". We are fortunate, our morgage is backed by the VA so we have a bit more help should anything ever happen. When DH lost his job suddenly years ago they suspended our payments until he found work. Yes, it accumlated moreinterest for those few months, but it was nice to know we didn't have to worry.

Kay1
12-15-2008, 12:04 PM
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2007/10/imf-mortgage-reset-chart.html

Above is a link to the mortgage reset chart. It looks like a false bottom for 2009, then it starts up again.

SplshMtn99
12-15-2008, 12:09 PM
I just started similar thread on the Community board. Should have thought to look here first.

It includes the full article & video link if anyone didn't see the show.
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=29178099&posted=1#post29178099

hopemax
12-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Last week, MSNBC had an article about the "pay option" ARM's

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28035238/

The part that makes me angry...in this example, Wachovia had a 45% quota for their "pick-a-pay" mortgages. The person in the article, ended up leaving the company because she did not feel comfortable pushing these types of mortgages on people; she wanted to sell them conventional loans. Before she left, she was disciplined for not meeting her quota.

You have someone trying to do right by her customers, but the mortgage loan business environment was set up that there was little place for her.

EthansMom
12-15-2008, 02:02 PM
I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of mortgages, but if these ARM's are scheduled to reset around 2010 and they are expecting a large portion of the mortgages to default once the payments increase, then the lenders need to be proactive not reactive. Mortgage rates are very low right now and lenders could develop incentives for consumers that will refinance with a fixed rate mortgage. It may cost the lenders/ borrowers money now, but imagine what it could save in the long run. Financial institutions depend on the profit from interest and if a large portion of the mortgages default, then the financial institutions won't have the earnings and the cycle will repeat the 2008 financial mess.

Unfortunately, with home value decreases, increases in inflation and decreases in wages and/or unemployment, MANY of these homeowners wouldn't qualify for refinancing. In order to refinance under current lending requirements, your home has to appraise for the value of your mortgage (or less) and you have to be able to show an income and expenses that can support the new mortgage payments.

DH and I are currently going to through a refi. to lock in a 30 year fixed while rates are low (we're 4.5 years into a 7/1 ARM). We put 20% down when we bought this house 4.5 years ago, have put about $40,000 worth of improvements into the home, have paid an extra $6,000 toward the principal over the last few years and I'm still *hoping* that our house will appraise such that we won't have to pay PMI (need house value to be 20% more than we owe). If we had put down less cash on our house, put improvements on a HELOC, and/or had an interest-only mortgage, there'd be no hope of getting a traditional refi.

Princess_Michelle
12-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Don't count on DC prices hitting anything close to a bargain basement price. DC is amazingly resistent to the market. Good or bad the government will always be here. If you want bargain basement housing move to Detroit.

Actually, we are looking into the Annapolis area... I saw a townhome there 1.5 years ago and they were asking $325K, there is one on the market now, just like it, for $250K, so a few of the suburban areas are seeing falling prices... we can technically afford one now, but are waiting just a bit longer.... I do realize I won't get prices like my family in the South can get.... but the prices are loads better than they were when we first moved here in '05...

And DH works for the government, so places like Detroit aren't an option. ;)

prncess674
12-15-2008, 02:14 PM
Actually, we are looking into the Annapolis area... I saw a townhome there 1.5 years ago and they were asking $325K, there is one on the market now, just like it, for $250K, so a few of the suburban areas are seeing falling prices... we can technically afford one now, but are waiting just a bit longer.... I do realize I won't get prices like my family in the South can get.... but the prices are loads better than they were when we first moved here in '05...

And DH works for the government, so places like Detroit aren't an option. ;)Annapolis is LONG way from DC. Near suburbs such as Arlington, Alexandria, Bethesda (basically anywhere where the metro goes underground) is what I called DC suburbs and has really maintained value. One bedrooms in a quality building are still hovering between 350K and 400K.

reginaastralis
12-15-2008, 02:50 PM
I try not to judge but this happened to my on last 2 houses that I rented (so I'm a little irritated). The first townhouse the owner assured us he bought 2 townhomes as long term investmenets. When the lease was up for renewal, he stopped returning my calls. I had to send a certified letter until he fianlly told me he had to sell b/c he misjudged the market & couldn't afford the 2 mortgages. So we moved, the 2nd homeowner, told me nothing & one day I was served with his foreclosure papers. Turns out he had 5 properties, all rentals & the tenants knew nothing about this. He was pocketing the rent money. I was lucky in the sense that on the first one I got my deposit back in full & on the 2nd house (owner had no money :headache: ) but he agreed to let me live out the last month instead of paying rent. Mind you I found these brand new homes through a reputable real estate agent & this all happened in the first YEAR . I am thankfully renting now from a building co. directly that built new homes expressly for leasing & is run by their own property management co. But for some of these investors I don't feel sorry for at all.

Your story is why we got OUT of that mess! We were renting a townhome last year, and the lady who owned it lived in California. She had bought it as an investment, hoping to sell quickly, and then our real estate market tanked. Well, we didn't know this woman from hell our high water, but the only thing that made us feel "safe" was that the money was sent to a real estate agent. Well, that was until two of my friends who were also paying to their real estate agent has foreclosure notices delivered to them, and not their "landlord'. Same story as yours, you were paying your rent while the (moron) wasn't paying his bills.

We ended up getting to buy my parents home, which definitely isn't renting, but ... it got us out of the possibility of someone screwing us. I hope things work out for you in the end.

JonS99
12-15-2008, 03:18 PM
Unfortunately Rentayenta, we all end up paying the cost some kind of way.





:offtopic: Ok we get it, you don't like Obama, he's the Antichrist. He's responsible for every thing from global warming to my too tight girdle. Ok, but could you please stop using him for an answer for each and every single topic. Rentayenta said absolutely nothing about BUSH, OBAMA, Republican or Democratic. She made a reply about irresponsible behaviour which is the one thing that is bipartisan.

Give it a rest. PLEASE

Yet as an Obama supporter, its probably a safe bet she supports social programs for others that are struggling for various reasons. My comments had nothing to do with Obama, rather the views of people that pick and choose who needs help and who doesn't.

Then again, based on my beliefs, I wouldn't help these people, I wouldn't help the other people that have bought too much house, I wouldn't help GM and I wish Washington would have kept their noses out of Wall St..

eliza61
12-15-2008, 03:30 PM
Yet as an Obama supporter, its probably a safe bet she supports social programs for others that are struggling for various reasons. My comments had nothing to do with Obama, rather the views of people that pick and choose who needs help and who doesn't.

Then again, based on my beliefs, I wouldn't help these people, I wouldn't help the other people that have bought too much house, I wouldn't help GM and I wish Washington would have kept their noses out of Wall St..

But how do you know who she supported? Neither the op or Renyata mention any thing about politics what so ever. She asked if we had seen a TV program on the housing meltdown and a future predicition. She said nothing about assisting anyone or any government social programs The clip mentioned nothing about political views, auto industry or bailouts. The clip was no more about Washington politics than last nights episode of Desperate housewives was.
I wish washington would also keep their noses out of wall street and I wish people would stop injecting political views into each and every single thread.

This thread had absolutely nothing to do with Washington, Obama, Bush, McCain, palin, UAW or bailouts. YOU brought that in yourself

ofhs93
12-15-2008, 03:35 PM
Thankfully we are in a situation where we purchased a house that was well within our means and I have a pretty safe job situation. I don't feel ANY pain for all of the "investors" out there who thought they could earn their fortune by flipping houses....however..the problem is that THEY'RE poor judgement is going to end up costing a LOT of innocent people to pay a heavy price.

And in the end we can pretty much thank Alan Greenspan for this entire mess. Thanks Al.....your rediculous monetary policy in the late 90's and 2000's has caused the largest real eastate collapse in the history of mankind...and all of this is because you wanted to prevent a non existent deflationary problem. Unfortunately it was only a matter of time. I can't blame the banks...because they were only doing whatever was nessesary to make money in an impossible postion. Banks traditionally make money on interest and loan fees. Greenspan took away the ability to make money on interest with his extended insanely low Fed Funds rate...so the banks had to scrounge and scramble to make money with more fees....you only get more fees by making more loans. You see...artificially low Fed rates create a vicious cycle when the house of cards finally starts to collapse. Easy cheap money means that people are willing to pay more for that house than they would have during "normal" interest rate periods. "Hey Honey...I know this is $100k more than what we planned on spending....but the rate is only x% on this 7/1 ARM...we can easily afford that....in 3 or 4 years we can refi it and lock it a low long term rate because our house will have appreciated by 80% by then." When Greenspan talked about "Irrational Exuberence" in the stock market back in the day he SHOULD have been heading his own words when it came to the real estate market....HE cause this problem with his own irrational exuberence.

If you look at the crytal ball when it comes to housing...the picture is pretty grim for at LEAST 18-24 months. The problem is that the foreclosures are absolutely KILLING the building industry....and as big a problem as the Car manufactures going belly up would be...trust me...the building industry is going to cause MORE pain. There is such a glut of inventory right now that in some major metro areas you could not build a single new house and it would take 3-4 years to exhaust the current inventory. It's absolutely astounding. I could go on and on...there are so many financial factors intertwined at this point....needless to say...it's going to be a rough few years from a real estate standpoint. If your in a sensible mortgage be greatful that you had restraint during the "insane" times and hopefully all of the foolishness that others have partaken in will not end up costing you your job. If Disney continues to have issues filling the parks then I might be able to take advantage of these great deals again in the furture, thanks to some prudence in the past....maybe some of us can find a silver lining to these tough financial times. Without the current 4/3 deal I can promise you that *I* would not be going in Feb.

mom2threecuties
12-15-2008, 03:39 PM
What worries me is that sub-prime mortgages are just the tip of the iceberg. Credit default swaps look like a much larger problem.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723152,00.html

MommaSnowwhite
12-15-2008, 03:49 PM
I would love to refi, but our house value has dropped almost $100k :scared1: since we bought it less than 4 years ago. Not everyone who is struggling "did this to themselves". It seems to me that the budget board has gotten very snippy and judgemental over things like this. Luckily we are fine and although rare for Michigan my Dh has a stable job that doesn't rely on automotive industries, I hope we are here long enough to come away with some of our down payment intact!

disneymom3
12-15-2008, 04:16 PM
DH and I are currently going to through a refi. to lock in a 30 year fixed while rates are low (we're 4.5 years into a 7/1 ARM). We put 20% down when we bought this house 4.5 years ago, have put about $40,000 worth of improvements into the home, have paid an extra $6,000 toward the principal over the last few years and I'm still *hoping* that our house will appraise such that we won't have to pay PMI (need house value to be 20% more than we owe). If we had put down less cash on our house, put improvements on a HELOC, and/or had an interest-only mortgage, there'd be no hope of getting a traditional refi.
We are going through the same thing. We didn't do any improvements but do haev a great rate on that ARM so have paid down a lot of prinicple. I thought we were sitting pretty as I had checked sold rates for houses in the area and it seemed we had plenty of equity to avoid PMI and get the rate we want. However, in looking on a local real estate website last night I see that there are two homes in our area very similar to ours. Both bank owned properties. One is listed at $55K less than similar ones have sold for and the other is at $60K less.:scared1: Thank goodness our appraisal is tomorrow and those two are still on the market. We get that price and I am lucky if I have ten grand in equity.:headache:

jodifla
12-15-2008, 04:22 PM
I would love to refi, but our house value has dropped almost $100k :scared1: since we bought it less than 4 years ago. Not everyone who is struggling "did this to themselves". It seems to me that the budget board has gotten very snippy and judgemental over things like this. Luckily we are fine and although rare for Michigan my Dh has a stable job that doesn't rely on automotive industries, I hope we are here long enough to come away with some of our down payment intact!

Exactly. There are plenty more people who bought a house they could afford easily...but not with NO job for months or even years and not with PLUMMETING housing values.

JonS99
12-15-2008, 05:51 PM
But how do you know who she supported?

Uh, by taking a look at her signature????????:confused3

eliza61
12-15-2008, 08:09 PM
Uh, by taking a look at her signature????????:confused3

which pretty much supports my argument. You attacked not on the basis of the thread or the discussion (which was about mortgages and a tv show) but simply on pre- concieved notions that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic.

I repeat :offtopic:

jlima
12-15-2008, 09:27 PM
If you want bargain basement housing move to Detroit.Or Las Vegas . . .

tinkerbell of winter
12-15-2008, 09:52 PM
I'm so glad I got a fixed rate mortgage.