Dragging the shutter? *pic added*

[wenrob]

I am looking for some advice on this technique. Ever year we go to The Magical Forest. It's basically a winding light display put on by Opportunity Village. I have read taking pictures of the displays would be best at twilight but they do not open until dark. Dragging the shutter seems like a viable option to get decent pics of the displays but what about my kids in front of the displays? How slow can I go? I know it's impossible to give me exact settings but I would greatly appreciate some ideas so that I can set my camera up and take it from there. If this isn't workable with the kids can you give me some ideas what would be? The conditions are: after dark, tons and tons of Christmas lights, hand held, a tripod is not an option. (way too many people)
TIA!

[orchjoe]

What about a monopod? You will at least get a little stability.

To get a crisp picture you will more than likely need either a fast lens or the ability to keep the camera very still.

[wenrob]

No a mono pod is not an option.

According to what I've read the brief flash would be enough to freeze things to get the shot. However, I've never done this so any advice on where to start and what my best chances would be is appreciated.

[JR6ooo4]

I am not clear on what "Dragging the Shutter" is....
Is it just a long shutter time?

Mikeeee

[wenrob]

From what I understand it helps even things out when you have extreme differences in your lighting situation like a dark night with lots of Christmas lights. If you use manual w/flash then you can slow down your shutter speed and still end up with a fairly decent shot. I tried some on my Xmas tree last night and they weren't too bad, not blurry at all. So my question to those who've done this is how slow is safe for subjects that may move, lol. And if I can't do it this way, how should I do it?

[Chikabowa]

Dragging the shutter is a term used to indicate the use of a long shutter with the use of some sort of flash or light to freeze action.

By using a long shutter, you are able to allow more ambient light to settle onto your sensor, hence balancing the amount of light in your exposure. The flash then can be used to essentially paint in your subject, with the use of light.

This is an example I did in WDW when doing a long exposure...
ISO 200, f22, 13 seconds
This shot is straight-out-of-camera.
I used an LED flashlight to essentially paint my DH back into the photograph.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb39/Chikabowa/WPD_0470.jpg

Same concept applies to the original poster....
You can jack up your ISO to something really high, hand-hold, have some fast, f2.8 or f1.4 glass on you camera, take your shutter down to 1/20, have some camera shake, but use your flash to expose the family properly.
Or you can keep your ISO low, have a higher f-stop, use a tripod have a long exposure for the christmas lights, paint the family back into the photograph with light.

Since the original poster doesn't want to be bothered with a tripod since it's a crowded area... then the first option is probably the better option; as long as they realize that that some camera shake and blurring might occur. :)

[handicap18]

I am not clear on what "Dragging the Shutter" is....
Is it just a long shutter time?

Mikeeee

I've never heard the term either, though from a quick google search it looks like it is basically panning with a slower shutter speed. You want just the specific subject in focus and everything else blurred to show motion.

Most of the panning a lot of us have done is with a fast moving subject like a car or kids sledding. With this, from what I can understand thus far, the subject is moving a lot slower, like walking down the aisle at a wedding or dancing on a dance floor.

If the OP wants to do this technique at a Holiday light scene I would think that it would completely blur out all the lights.

What about doing a rear sync flash instead. Use maybe a 1/20th or so shutter speed to get more of the lights and the have the flash go off at the end to freeze the kids.

I've done this at Disney with a 1 second shutter, but I also used a tripod. A monopod would help too. You can always use your tripod as a monopod.

[wenrob]

No Kyle, it's not panning. See Chikabowa's post. Thank you for giving me an option to use, I really appreciate it. I'm going to try this w/the kiddos tonight under the tree. What would you recommend as far as ISO?

Chikabowa-It's not that I don't want to bother w/a tripod it's that it truly isn't a viable option. It's a path w/shoulder to shoulder people. They will pause to let someone take a pic but no way will they stop for a tripod set up, lol. Thank you for your tips!

[ukcatfan]

Chikabowa-It's not that I don't want to bother w/a tripod it's that it truly isn't a viable option. It's a path w/shoulder to shoulder people. They will pause to let someone take a pic but no way will they stop for a tripod set up, lol. Thank you for your tips!

Based on your description, I do not see why a monopod would not work. There is no setup time.

[handicap18]

Based on this web site that I found.... it looks like there is some panning involved to me.
http://www.wedpix.com/articles/013/dragging-the-camera-shutter-at-weddings.html

But I guess it depends on the shot. Otherwise based on Chikabowa's post, it involves rear sync flash or another term I've seen, Painting with Light.

[wenrob]

I was just using the term that came up in my search on Xmas lights. I think I will try the rear curtain sync you suggested. A couple questions if you don't mind?
Can I still use my diffuser cap on my flash? I will only be a foot or two away from the kids.
My plan was F.8, do you have a suggestion for ISO?

Ukatfan-I don't have a mono pod and there is a spending freeze on photo equipment right now. And the crowds aren't pretty, think Disney confined to a much smaller space, lol. I'm not against a tripod or mono pod, just it's not going to happen this visit.
I know I will not get perfect pics, I'm just after decent.
Thanks again for the help!

[MICKEY88]

Based on this web site that I found.... it looks like there is some panning involved to me.
http://www.wedpix.com/articles/013/dragging-the-camera-shutter-at-weddings.html

But I guess it depends on the shot. Otherwise based on Chikabowa's post, it involves rear sync flash or another term I've seen, Painting with Light.

dragging the shutter, normally doesn't include panning,

that article is combining the 2 techniques, to get the desired effect

[MarkBarbieri]

I've always heard "dragging the shutter" in reference to using a flash combined with a longer than normal shutter speed. It is done to put more light on your subject while giving time for the background to expose. It is a way to fight the common look of amateur flash photography - a brightly lit subject in front of a very dark background.

Using a Canon camera, you get this affect when you shoot in Aperture priority mode with a flash. The camera sets the exposure for the scene and then sets the flash brightness to illuminate your subject. You can get the same effect by shooting in manual mode and manually adjusting your exposure for the scene.

I almost always use a tripod when I drag the shutter. Here's an example I did in a cave. I set the shutter speed for 1/4 second with an ISO of 1600 and an aperture of f/4. That was enough to see the cave, but my wife and kids were not well lit. I turned on the flash to show them. If I had not "dragged the shutter", they would have been well lit, but the cave would have been dark.

http://photos.barbierifamily.org/photos/143294696_reN7m-L.jpg

Here is a pair of shots that demonstrate the technique. The first shot was taken at 1/250, f/9, and ISO 400. The flash lit the subject and didn't worry about the background. The second shot was taken at 1/60, f/8, and ISO 400. The effect of the flash was less and the background shows better.

http://photos.barbierifamily.org/photos/281018895_AyFX3-L.jpg

http://photos.barbierifamily.org/photos/281018882_MczKZ-L.jpg

It isn't strictly necessary to use a tripod or monopod when dragging the shutter. The problem is that you usually want a long shutter speed, which forces you to use those items.

Another potential problem is that your subject's exposure is a combination of the light from the flash and the ambient light. If they move during the exposure, the flash won't be enough to freeze them. You'll see a bit of ghosting around them. Make sure that you ask your subject to stay very, very still until the shot is finished. It's a good idea to use second curtain sync so that you can tell them not to move until after they see the flash.

[KAT4DISNEY]

Just a thought and I understand the crowds are bad, but a tripod can essentially be used as a monopod - just use it for steadying the shot but don't fully set it up.

Dragging the shutter sounds like an interesting technique!

[wenrob]

Thank you Mark! I wonder if the D-lighting on my Nikon would do the same for me as what your Canon does for you? Another thing to experiment with tonight.

[MarkBarbieri]

My understanding, and I could easily be wrong about this, is that Nikon drags the shutter when using shutter priority and a flash. In other words, when you are in shutter priority mode with the flash on, it sets the exposure as if you weren't using the flash and then adjusts the flash power to match that.

[Steve's Girl]

I made a few feeble attempts to try this last year when we were at WDW.

http://wendymitchell.smugmug.com/photos/238186895_NiRPh-L.jpg

http://wendymitchell.smugmug.com/photos/234726457_JS3Pe-L.jpg

In hindsight, I think I would try to boost the ISO a little and use a faster shutter. Both of these had a one second shutter, and that is just too long when you have a subject that moves - ie, people. And the second one is handheld. You just can't hold a camera steady for one second even with VR. I like Mark's idea of using second curtain sync. I'll have to try that. In the photo below, I used a 1/15 shutter with flash because I wanted a nicely lit background, but you can see slight blurring in the eye lashes from blinking. The second curtain may help with that.

http://wendymitchell.smugmug.com/photos/228790283_dj678-L.jpg

[wenrob]

Well, I think you did a pretty good job of it. I would be happy with those shots considering the truly poor ones I've gotten in the past at place we're going. I don't see any blur in their eyelashes, I assume you have to zoom in to see it?

Going to practice on DD and the Christmas tree tonight to see what I get.

[MICKEY88]

Using a Canon camera, you get this affect when you shoot in Aperture priority mode with a flash. The camera sets the exposure for the scene and then sets the flash brightness to illuminate your subject. You can get the same effect by shooting in manual mode and manually adjusting your exposure for the scene.

.

point of clarification...

if doing this in aperture priority, wouldn't you have to make sure to stop the lens down to get a longer shutter speed,, if you weere using the nifty fifty and set aperture at 1.7, your shutter speed might be too high...???

[MICKEY88]

My understanding, and I could easily be wrong about this, is that Nikon drags the shutter when using shutter priority and a flash. In other words, when you are in shutter priority mode with the flash on, it sets the exposure as if you weren't using the flash and then adjusts the flash power to match that.





I don't think brand of camera matters, nor whether you shoot aperture priority ,shutter priority, or manual

with a compatible flash unit, the camera will meter for ambient light and the flash is adjusted accordingly

the key is making sure the shutter speed is slow, generally longer than 1/60th

[wenrob]

It was not comepletly dark in the room but quite dim. I daresay it will be brighter at the Magic Forest even being full dark outside. But at least I have an idea of what I need to do to get a fairly decent shot. Thanks for all the help everyone. We're talking about going tomorrow so I'll let you know how it goes.

Straight from the camera.
Hand held, rear sync, F 6.3, ISO 800 1/30sec. (she was wiggle butting it too)

http://static.flickr.com/3090/3090587969_bae8a813d5_d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/17273279@N02/3090587969/)

[MarkBarbieri]

point of clarification...

if doing this in aperture priority, wouldn't you have to make sure to stop the lens down to get a longer shutter speed,, if you weere using the nifty fifty and set aperture at 1.7, your shutter speed might be too high...???

I don't think brand of camera matters, nor whether you shoot aperture priority ,shutter priority, or manual

with a compatible flash unit, the camera will meter for ambient light and the flash is adjusted accordingly

the key is making sure the shutter speed is slow, generally longer than 1/60th


Let me explain using an example. I have my camera set up in my office right now. It is at ISO 200.

In program mode with no flash, it meters for 1/5s and f/4. When I turn on the flash, it meters for 1/60 and f/4. The camera anticipates using the light of the flash to light the scene, so it increase 30x.

Now I switch to AV mode. With no flash and the aperture set to f/4, it still picks a shutter speed of 1/5s. When I turn on the flash and keep the shutter speed at f/4, it picks a shutter speed of 1/10s. It anticipates getting some light from the flash, but it only doubles the shutter speed instead of increasing it thirtyfold. That means that anything not lit by the flash will still be visible in the picture.

In manual mode, I can pick any shutter speed and aperture and the camera will try to make up the difference using the flash.

Now, as to your first question, I can set whatever aperture I want. The camera will set the shutter speed to be a little faster than normal to leave some headroom for the flash. It is possible to get a shutter speed higher than the max sync speed on the flash. In that case, you'll want to either stop down or switch the flash into high speed sync mode.

I think that the brand does matter, but I'm not sure. I only know how Canon handles it. In Program mode, it meters under the assumption that the flash will be the primary source of light. In AV mode, it meters under the assumption that the flash will only be supplemental and that the ambient light will be primary. In Manual mode, it adjusts the flash to bring the subject up to "proper" exposure but otherwise does what you told it to do.

If you are indoors in a lowlight setting, try manual mode. Set the ISO at the highest tolerable level for your camera. Set the shutter speed at the lowest you are comfortable hand holding. Open the aperture as wide as possible. If this is overexposing, then you don't need the flash and you can switch to your favorite auto-exposure mode. If it is under exposing, turn on the flash. The flash will compensate for the underexposure. The manual work assured that you are getting the most ambient light possible in the situation and only using the flash as little as necessary.

Just for you, MICKEY88, here is a shot I took with a Minolta film SLR (I think it was a 7000i) camera dragging the shutter. It was taken about 20 years ago on New Years. I can't remember with certainty how I got the shot, but I'm guessing it was something like this. I switched to bulb mode (like manual, except that the shutter stays open as long as you are holding the release button) and my widest aperture. Then I turned on the flash. I counted on the E-TTL flash metering to correctly adjust the flash to illuminate my friend. I pressed the remote release trigger as my friend was starting to light the bottle rockets. The shutter opened, the flash fired, the bottle rockets lit, my friend ran, the bottle rockets launched, I released the remote trigger, and the flash closed. The original looked better. This isn't a great scan.

http://photos.barbierifamily.org/photos/143292697_D59Wn-L.jpg

[MICKEY88]

Now, as to your first question, I can set whatever aperture I want. The camera will set the shutter speed to be a little faster than normal to leave some headroom for the flash. It is possible to get a shutter speed higher than the max sync speed on the flash. In that case, you'll want to either stop down or switch the flash into high speed sync mode.





that was my point...if you're getting a shutter speed higher than the flash sync, you aren't dragging the shutter, so in aperture priority you would have to stop down the lens to get a slower shutter speed,

being an experienced photographer, you probably do that without thinking about it..

as for the other part, I had to grab my camera out of the bag, and I was forgetting something that I do without thinking about it.

I can shoot in aperture or shutter priority and by pressing the auto exposure lock button, the camera meters and shoots for ambient light, and the flash only works for fill, but I still must pay attention to the shutter speed I'm getting and adjust accordingly to get a slower shutter speed if I want to drag the shutter