State of Transportation

[Panthius]

I recently asked Walt Disney World via their website about the transportation and the expansion of the monorail. I just got my response and was happy to get my reply which I am now going to share with all of you:

Thank you for contacting WALT DISNEY WORLD!


We sincerely appreciate your interest in learning why the monorail system is not
connected to other resort and theme park locations within our "World." We would
like to mention that we are currently redeveloping our Transportation Master
Plan. You may also be happy to know that we are looking into the possibility of
phasing in various "magical" modes of transportation into our existing system.
Regrettably, any further information regarding target dates or details are not
available to us, as we are only in the planning stages. Regardless, your
thoughts are appreciated and they have been shared with the appropriate
management individuals.


We look forward to another opportunity to serve and entertain you.



From the sound of this, there do not appear to be any plans to exapnd the current monorial system, however, the other "magical" modes of transportation do sound very interesting. I guess all we can do is wait to hear anything more on this in the future, although I will not be holding my breath waiting for any further information.

Panthius

[Annie&Hallie'sMom]

"Magical" modes of transporation? Could that be Mr. Toad's Wild Bus Ride? ;)

[DVCDAVE]

Magical" modes of transporation? Could that be Mr. Toad's Wild Bus Ride?


LOL !!!!!!!!:jester: :jester: :D :D :D :D :D :D :bounce:

[toefungus]

Magical Modes.....Intresting. Could that be more busses?? :rolleyes:

[DC7800]

Magical Modes.....Intresting. Could that be more busses??

Seriously, after reading that statement, I immediately thought of those "resort cruiser" buses used at Tokyo Disney (I've seen pictures; I've not been there).

[DVCDAVE]

Nothing more Magical than watching the soot pump out of those exhaust pipes and dirty that WDW air !!! I love the stars and peoples eyes and smiles on their faces, while they wait at those bus stops too !!!

[Panthius]

I remember hearing a while back that some form of Light Rail transit system was being proposed as opposed to a full blown monorail expansion. The monorail expansion was going to cost quite a bit of money, so the thought was to examine the possiblity of a less expensive light rail system. While this is not a monorail expansion, this is still better than the current bus on demand system they seem to be stuck with.

From the sound of the response to my query, I immediately thought of this light rail system since it would be a lot more "magical" than the bus system they have now, as well as a lot more friendly to the environment.

Hopefully, in time, we will discover that what this CM has sent to me will result in the reduction in the number of busses on property and increase the number of other modes of transportation such as a light rail system to the resorts which currently do not have any other mode of transportation besides the busses.

Pan

[Another Voice]

Several light-rail proposals have been put forth over the last decade. But since none of them would produce a positive cash flow, they along with all the other transportation initutives have been killed. The various "magical" means of transportation the letter was talking about must truely be "magical" since the people in charge of designing WDW's new system were laid-off a year ago. Maybe that giant wand at Epcot could give us a monorail system.

The future of transportation around property is not too bright at the moment. There are continuing rumors about Disney selling the entire system (busses, monorails, etc.) off to a contractor. The outside company would be left with finding ways of making money on the project - selling tickets, ad space, airport transportation rights, government subsidies, etc. - and then pay Disney a heafty fee on top of everything. Surprisingly, they haven't had a lot of takers.

Until the entire company gets straightened out (read that to mean the moment WDW doesn't have to pay for 'Dinotopia' level money pits), expect continued long waits for smoke bleching busses.

Unless you're staying at Pop Century (just a rumor)....

[Panthius]

A positive cash flow for the transportation system of WDW is a curious issue. I seem to remember back throughout the entire 80's you had complimentary monorail transportation if you stayed on Walt Disney World property, but if you were not staying on property, I believe you had to pay to use the monorail system, or possibly any other transportation system.

Since this time, probably sometime in the "Disney Decade" they made the monorail service free to all. This does not sound like something that was done in hopes to make money out of the transportation system. Again, this was quite a while ago and most likely the philosophy has changed with the addition of certain people into upper management, but it still was taking away revenue from WDW.

Might it be possible to make the existing and any future expansion of the transportation system available for free as a perk to onsite guests while non onsite guests wold have to pay for the service? I would support this if it meant the ability to not have to take a bus to The Disney Studios and Animal Kingdom and it would be a means to help pay for this additional transportation.

Pan

[Another Voice]

Technically, each multi-day ticket includes use of the WDW transportation system. And there is (technically) a transportation ticket available for people without park-hoppers. It just costs too much to have all the monorail drivers, boat drivers and bus drivers check, so everyone now gets a "free" ride. Disney charges it lease holders for use of the transportation system too, so if you stay at the Dolphin part of your room rate also covers the busses and motor launches. If you remember back, the busses that went to the Hotel Plaza properties also used to be WDW Transport - now they're a different bus line. Same issue when the Disney Inn was sold to the government; Disney won't even let the G.I.'s ride for free and they had to go buy a bus. All issues are about money.

There is a great amount of accounting that makes sure all these dollars get shuffled from one account to another. And in meeting after meeting, these "dollars" are somehow used to justify and/or eliminate and/or eliminate projects. Almost nothing is done on property without someone being able to "prove" it will amke a "profit" - even it's just phoney money charged by one bit of WDW to another bit of WDW.

To anyone that has undertaken an hour trek from the Contemporary to Animal Kingdom such a "accounting games" seems rather meaningless (if not outright stupid), but that's how customer service is managed these days.

[space42]

This is really sad to me if what Sir Voice says is true.

If the company had this same attitude in the late 70's they would never have expanded the monorail system in the first place. Do you really think they were having these same types of meetings then? Of course not. It was the right thing to do! Shoot, they built the monorail expansion even before EPCOT was finished so you could ride over to the site and check out the construction progress. It never cost any extra money to ride it either. As Voice stated, there is a transportation charge built in to the ticket price. I can remember back in the 80's somtime that they even showed that charge on your ticket (about $1-2 I believe).

The Disney company has more cash flow than they did in the 70's. There is no excuse for not expanding the monorail system. They did it in Tokyo for Disney Sea. Vegas is getting an expanded monorail line. Don't tell me Disney cannot afford to do it or it is not profitable. Expanding the line out to EPCOT did not bankrupt the company. The current Disney company is more interested in buying half rate cable networks for 5 billion dollars!!!! :confused:

[All Aboard]

expect continued long waits for smoke bleching busses. Unless you're staying at Pop Century (just a rumor)....Well, you've caught my interest. I'm reading this to mean that Pop might not even have bus service. Before I start analyzing the percent of drivers v flyers to WDW and the cost of a rental car v. the price differentail between Pop and the All Stars (which there is none at the moment), let me know if I read your statement correctly.

[Another Voice]

The idea’s been floated (along with a few others). More likely is a limitation on routes – Pop Century will get busses but you’ll have to transfer to get where you’re going.

[seashoreCM]

Don't worry, Pop Century will have buses at least to all four major parks. Transferring won't work, folks at the place (for example Caribbean Beach) where Pop Century folks might transfer will object.

Except to Downtown Disney, buses work just fine if there are enough of them. A trolley (light rail) system will cost almost as much as a monorail if it is elevated above all the automobile traffic.

As far as I remember, the monorail was always free to all. In fact to get to MK, day guests have to take the monorail if not take the ferry boat.

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[larworth]

I'm sure they think twice before they do anything that might limit occupancy rates.

However, one assumes a good portion of the people opting to stay at PC are doing so for budget reasons (unless color blindness is a bigger epidemic than I realize). I would expect fewer rental cars per guest than the other resorts and therefore a population more dependant on Disney transportation. Also a bigger population of "only a bed" people who spend more time in the parks and therefore rely more heavily on getting to places in a stressless and timely manner. If PC got a reputation as a poor transporation location I would think it could really hurt bookings.


Yes, it would be cool to have a complete park monorail system. However, even with the Vegas example I have to assume this is still the most expensive transportation option for WDW. I'm not convinced that more mono-rails are the best way to WOW guests. I'd opt for a lesser cost option and put the extra money into the parks.

[Bstanley]

My personal wish is that they would minimize the "smoke belching busses" and start adding "smoke belching trains" :-)

I imagine that with the price of diesel (and drivers) going higher at a fairly steady rate the ROI on light rail systems would get interesting to the 'bean counter' mentalities at WDW any day now.

[mrtoadslastride]

The way Disney has been making decisions the last several years, the only way we will see any new transportation system to replace busses is if they can prove that their addition would increase profits.

I would guess that it would be cheaper to open 1 new gate and a new water park than to build a monorail system that would completely replace busses. I am also not convinced that a new monorail or light rail system would provide better/faster transportation to the parks.

[Panthius]

In the early to mid 80's the monorail was definitely not free to all. I had stayed at the Poly about 7 years straight and if I wanted to use the monorail, I had to flash them my resort ID card showing me to be staying at an onsite resort. No ID card, no ride.

As for the financial aspect of expanding the monorail system or adding a light rail system, would again not allowing everybody to use this system (charge to use the system, maybe a daily/weekly/annual pass or so) and having the "free" usage of this new transportation system as a "perk" to onsite guests, pay for a majority of the expansion if not the whole thing and then some? Basically, keep the cost of the transportation system built into the onsite guests, but no longer allow anybody to use the new system without a charge. The charge would have to be low enough to get people to pay to use the system, but high enough to make financial sense.

As for a light-rail/monorail expansion speeding up the transportation, it may not, but it would make the wait be that much more "magical" and definitely more enjoyable than those wonderful busses.

Pan

[paulh]

a neat idea that would not cost a lot of $$$$ is a dedicated buss lane.Made so no cars can use them,transmiters on the busses to give them priority at the trafic lightsthis would cut down transport time to and from the parks.Transport systems like this are starting to apear in citys in our cuntry(UK) why not in disney the only problem i have with the buses at disney is when they get stuck in trafic,spoils the disney expereance for me
Paulh
PS do they still run the meat wagon to the all stars ( thats what it looked like to me)

[Bstanley]

The 'bus' that I've seen for the All-Stars that I think you are referring to is the converted Semi-Trailer that looks distinctly like the trucks that we ship cattle in, in Texas. I've never been inside one - perhaps they are comfortable - but they sure look odd...

If there were bus lanes and they spent a modest amount on theming the buses, perhaps even converted them to save money by using electricity/hydraulic energy instead of diesel (which would also minimize the smell/sound) I suppose I could live without a monorail expansion...I just wish they would do something!

[Captain_Nemo]

First of all the word "Light" in Light rail refers to capacity, not price. The Monorail is very efficient for moving large numbers of guest for moderately long distances. A light rail system would be intended for a moderate number of guest traveling shorter distances.

I don't think the Monorail was ever expected to be a big money maker any more than other pieces of the WDW infrastructure. I think Disney's original plan assumed one huge parking lot would be cheaper to maintain than several smaller lots, so they needed a mass transit system to make the concept work. Since then someone ran the numbers and realized that busses and drivers are cheaper and more flexible than a fixed rail system (the roads have already been built so they don't count).

All that being said, the least they could do is switch to busses that run on propane, or natural gas, or even…dare I say it…electricity!:eek:

By the way, the DL monorail used to require an E-ticket to ride. So there was a fee to "use" it once upon a time.

Captain Nemo

[seashoreCM]

>>> The 'bus' that I've seen for the All-Stars that I think you are referring to is the converted Semi-Trailer ...

On one of my Disney trips, I chose a busy time of year to be sure the semitrailer buses would be running in guest service, most of the time they carried CM's only.

Tandem semitrailer buses running between MK and a new station in the vicinity of Blizzard Beach would save greatly on labor costs. Guests would transfer to regular buses to All Star, Caribbean Beach, etc. at that south end station, you could call it TTC II.

The problem with tandem trailers (anywhere in the world) is that they cannot be merged or lane changed safely in heavy traffic. So the only way to run this kind of Disney transportation would be to have the trucks descend a ramp from TTC direc5tly into the left lane of World Drive Freeway without merging, cruise there, and exit from the left lane to the south end TTC II.

Alas I am told that the semitrailer buses have been converted into mobile home style office space.

[ztbz]

"Magical" modes of transportation is the Magic on Demand Bus System which is still being used or Tested in the morning hours at WDW.

The Magic of Demand System is still alive but the Computer Dispatch system has been trashed due to many problems with the system. Disney has been Testing various forms of Magic on Demand for the past couple of months. But the Buses work the best when they go back to the old Count Sheet system in the afternoons, Disney considers the Count sheet system to Labor costly which is why they are pushing magic on demand system where they feel they will save money on costs and have less Bus drivers on staff.

If you plan to go to Downtown Disney by Disney Bus allow a lot of time to do it. Because the Roads in around the Downtown Disney area is under Major Construction right at the moment and the buses go right through it.

[tater bug]

I don't post here because most of your conversations are WAY more info than I could ever get my hands on but I was wondering something...

could they use something similar to Wedway? My SO and I have often talked about how cool it would be utilize this. It would need to be enclosed somehow but we think the loading areas would move slow enough that just like Wedway, they would not need to stop for people to board (even the ones with strollers and the kitchen sink)

I hope this doesn't sound extremely stupid.... :)

[Bstanley]

A WEDWay - oops sorry - TomorrowLand Transportation Authority :-) - People Mover would be a seriously kewl way to get around WDW, but basically it would cost at least as much as a monorail line so I don't imagine it would ever come to pass.

Hmmm, unless the vehicles would be so much lighter than a monorail that the track would be a lot cheaper than the $Million(s?) a mile that an elevated train track/monorail track costs...

[DVCDAVE]

????????

Why does a monorail have to be elevated ?????

Seems to me it would be cheaper to build if it was at ground level like light rail, YET be far more magical then ANY light rail system.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bstanley]

i suspect the monorail is elevated because:

* it runs along a center beam (4 feet high?) rather than tracks on the ground,
* it gives people a nice view,
* it doesn't interfere with roads,
* it doesn't have to have a fence around it to keep critters or people from being run over,
* and it is elevated high in the air (out of reach of people and critters) because the voltage that the monorail is powered by is VERY dangerous. No need to get into Watts, Amps and Volts, but suffice it to say that if it was close to the ground it would kill anything that touched it.

Several of these reasons are also probably why there aren't any light rail lines on property either. Even though I personally think it would be kewl to take a Steam Train from AKL to AK :-)

[DVCDAVE]

Wouldn't electrified light rail have the same problems and issues ?

[Bstanley]

Yes sir - if the wires were low enough to touch.

I imagine if they built an electric rail system they would buy Trolley or "Euro" style trains which use overhead electrical connections.

Give me a good old-fashioned smoke belching Steam Train! Even if it is really a diesel loco with steam faked somehow! :-)

[Captain_Nemo]

DVCDAVE, your right the monorail doesn't have to be elevated, but for the reasons Bstanley mentioned, it is a good idea. I will only add that the added cost of raising the beam is not that much more in the overall cost of the system, and you would probably still want the beam to rise up at the stations so that you can clear cars and pedestrians.

Without going into excruciating detail, many forms of light rail use high voltage safely. You may have seen light rail cars that use only one power cable 20 feet in the air (the hot), while the rails in the ground provide the other side of the connection. Another option is to semi-enclose the hot cable, and give the rail cars a special brush armature that fits the enclosure like a sliding key. I know that the former is used all over the world, I am not sure if the later has been used in light rail. But given the number of cities in America, Europe, Asia, etc. that have electric light rail, I think that safety isn't an obstacle.

Bottom line though, Light rail is too light for park to park transportaion (my opinion).

Want a wild idea? How about a cable car system like the ones in San Francisco. Or how about a steam train that burns natural gas to boil the water? All the romance without the pollution. :sunny:

Couldn't see a People mover for going park to park though. Imagine sitting there for hours as it plods along. :o

[Tik Tok]

You know where I'd really like to see a PeopleMover...

Downtown Disney! Walking from the Westside to the Marketplace side can be a major pain. How about a PeopleMover system with three stops - one by Cirque du Soliel, one at the entrance to Pleasure Island, and one somewhere on the Marketplace side.

And heck, if they really get ambitious, they could even build a PeopleMover loop for the Village hotels to a Downtown Disney monorail station - hence linking up that entire side of the property to the monorail transportation system. Now as to where the monorail goes from there, I'll leave that up to Disney to decide!! ;)

[PKS44]

A nice, efficient and correctly themed mode of transportation would be to have a little tram running around the Boardwalk, like they have in Atlantic City--this would take folks from the Epcot resorts to and from Epcot more quickly than waiting for the boats and around from resort to resort...certainly an electric car should be able to circle around in either direction on the Boardwalk...quiet, quick and in theme...can't be beat...

Paul

[barreloflaughs]

Paul wrote:

A nice, efficient and correctly themed mode of transportation would be to have a little tram running around the Boardwalk, like they have in Atlantic City <snip> quiet, quick and in theme

Actually a nice idea, Paul....to complete the theming, however, you would need to add that annoying prerecorded woman's voice which repeats (ad nauseum): "Watch the tramcar,please".

Oh, and the Boardwalk shops would need to sell those t-shirts which read "#%&* the Tramcar".

carl
barrel of laughs

[seashoreCM]

>>> Why does a monorail have to be elevated ?????

Primary reason, to not have intersections with automobile clogged roads and therefore the accident hazard because of bad motorists.