Writing a letter

[dthomas]

Does anyone have an address and name of high ranking official at DVC? Is there a head Honcho?

[JudithM]

What do you want to write about ot to whom do you want to write? - resort manager? front desk? housekeeping? Member Services? I have some names of DVC cast members. If you can be more specific, perhaps I can help.

[dthomas]

I want to write a letter to someone in charge to ask why the points at VWL are the same as preferred view BWV whenever the cash reservation price is Lower than BWV. I have seen it explained on this board (higher construction price) but I would like an "official explanation". I feel the points are a little out of line in compared to the other two resorts at WDW. I know my letter will not make a difference, but I do not think that new members in DVC should have higher points at their home resort whenever the cash price is lower than BWV. Also, I am sure some rooms at VWL face parking lots too. I would just like to see more uniformity.

[This message was edited by dthomas on 02-13-01 at 05:16 PM.]

[Muushka]

dthomas
We have recently purchased at VWL. We knew the facts before we bought there, but it was our favorite resort, and so we waited 2 years for it to be built. I agree with what you have written about the point vs cash payment when compared to BWV. One letter may not make a difference, but maybe if several people wrote, who knows! Please let me know if you find out who to write to, and we will write also. (We probably should have let them know how we felt about it when we bought, but they seemed to have the attitide that Disney can do basically what it wants).

[Richyams]

The reason they had to make the schedule as high as it is is pretty simple. The Vero Beach fiasco. They really should have raised the buy in price to compensate for the higher construction costs. With VB points laying around and nobody buying them, they couldn't very well raise the buy in price. Think of the MB program they would have needed then!!!

Another problem for DVC caused by VB. Now points spent at VWL will return a lower value then points spent at BWV. If the trend continues, and BCV gives even less value, that 11 month window is going to be getting more and more important. I expect they will be selling VB points well after BCV sells out also.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[JudithM]

I emailed this page to a DVC cast member. I will let you know when I receive a response.

[PamOKW]

Rich, Vero Beach is not to blame for global warming! I wish you would find something besides your own conjecture to bolster your point about it being a failure. I have read nothing to indicate this and have heard nothing from anyone but you here on these boards.

I don't know what the big surprise is about the point schedule at VWL. When BWV opened they established a new point schedule for DVC. (This was later adjusted to allow for parking lot view rooms at a lower rate.) When VWL opened they continued to use the new point schedule.

[Richyams]

VB is very obviously a very big dissappointment to Disney. The experience there and at HH soured Dsieny on ever building off WDW property DVC resorts again. The resort is only a shadow of its original plans, again, because of poor sales. Remember the deal with the dues??? Do you think that Disney would have put themselves in the very embarrassing position of ending that subsidy if they didn't have to???

What about the MB program? VB has long been the recipient of the most generous MB programs to try to get people to buy there.

There is no doubt at all that VB was a big disappointment. HH was also. HH is in an area with a thriving resort business already, it is a tiny resort, it will sell out.

VB is also a very beautiful resort. Big rooms, plenty of things to do, it is a truly great place. But it isn't selling. DVC sales has been forced by poor sales to use lies and fraud to sell their poorly selling resort.

While I may be very outspoken and candid, I am also right.

For DOC:

My opinion?? I think not, I think that the evidence is overwhelming that Disney is EXTREMELY dissappointed in the sales at VB, so much so that they will never again build an off site DVC resort.

I guess my reasoning for the point schedule at VWL is 'my opinion'. I would be very interested in hearing other opinions, I haven't/ I think my opinion is right...hmmmm, well, I guess that by definition, I would have to believe that my opinion was right.....

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[WebmasterDoc]

Rich- if you have some facts to back up your suspicions and OPINION then please state them. Otherwise it is merely your opinion.

To state than something is "very obviously" anything is merely your opinion- unless you have a published statement from DVC to it's members saying that. If you want to say "Rich Hyams is disappointed in the sales at VB"- then you are stating a FACT. If you are offering your rhetoric as an official comment from DVC- then I'd like to see your credentials to make such a statement.

If you can offer some statistics from other timeshares about the sales figures for their resorts at HH then your comments about the DVC resort there might also have some merit- but it seems that those comments are only your views on the subject and you include them only to serve your own purpose. Not fact- just your opinion again.

Your "overwhelming evidence" may exist only in your mind- as it doesn't look so overwhelming from my viewpoint. ....and that's MY opinion.

[Richyams]

Why is the resort not only not going to the "other side of the road" but not even being completed on this side of the road?

What reason could there possibly be other then poor sales?

Ending of that subsidy was a VERY telling move, what other reason could have possibly prompted that?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[WebmasterDoc]

I don't have any information that those plans won't be completed at some time in the future. All I know is that those original plans have been temporarily modified.

While the plans may have been modified from the original proposal- plans do change. They even changed the points at BWV from what was orignally presented and I don't think that would make BWV a failure.

Some examples used are like saying "It is cloudy today and I have a headache- therefore headaches are caused by cloudy days." No real cause and effect there, but "case studies" are often presented as fact without any basis.
Some people are convinced that taking laetrile will cure cancer- or wearing a copper bracelet will prevent all sorts of disease. While there is no substantiated evidence to support those claims- many people are quite vocal with their assertions and they often present their own opinions and observations as fact- thus luring others into believing them and causing those individuals to delay or refuse more appropriate treatment options.
Provide the research to substantiate the claims and those claims are much more effective, as the research may then be evaluated by others in a rational manner.

[PamOKW]

I have heard nothing from DVC on what their plans are or are not for building out the rest of Vero. From Day One they were upfront that they were unsure how it would all develop. The ending of the subsidy was included in the documents early on as well. If BWV and WLV had not been built chances are very good that Vero would indeed be close to sell-out by now. These two on-site options certainly slowed sales.

It does appear that DVC will not continue in offsite development. However, I have no knowledge of what led to that decision nor do you. You feel that Vero and HHI were "failures". Have you considered that maybe they did take into consideration the balance needed between WDW and non-WDW resorts? Could it be they are looking to protect your ability to stay at WDW by not overselling offsite properties? Or maybe they just decided not to invest the resources to pursue this as a new business for Disney. Blanket "failure" statements are misleading and constantly accusing DVC of false sales practices is also a disservice to people who are coming to these boards for information. Over the years the majority of people have commented much the other way on how honest, helpful and low pressure the salespeople at DVC have been.

[Richyams]

I think it is quite fair to infer that the extremely difficult and embarrassing move of ending the subsidy for the dues was a huge confirmation that sales didn't go as planned(failed).

I also think that the ending of the subsidy told us that those plans are permanently scrapped for the "other side of the road", I think that the proposals for a conference center on the now infamous "other side of the road" is another confirmation of the fact that those plans are off the table completely.

You can call this all "my opinon', fine, but I am right.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Richyams]

That Disney purposely stopped building off site DVC resorts, AND actually divested themselves of land that may have been designated for future DVC resorts so that the WDW properties would not be in too high of a demand....I actually hadn't considered that.

I don't think that it is very likely, especially with the zeal they put into using WDW DVC properties to sell VB points.

As far as lies go....I have sat through a presentation for HH where they lied to me. I have had many family members buy into dvc, some pretty recently, I think my sister got some of the last points at OKW. I have had several friends also buy into DVC. I have heard from EVERY single one of them that VB and/or HH were put up as a more economical choice to soley visit WDW DVC resorts.

On top of all that, we have witnessed here many testaments to the lies told by DVC sales staff.


If you remember, I stopped accusing DVC sales of false practices almost two years ago, it seemed we were getting less reports here of poor sales people and many reports of good honest sales folk, I thought that was great.

Then another one of my sisters bought, and we had people coming in here reporting the same lies again, this time they were tilted soley toward the selling of VB. I got back on my horse and as long as I can do so honestly and truthfully, I will continue to point out to people the lies and fraud used by DVC sales staff.

I think "false", "lies", and "fraud" are very strong words, I wouldn't use them if they weren't deserved, DVC sales staff has earned them thoroughly.

Of course, that is some of the sales staff, I am sure there are a few good ones left, but the choreagraphy of the lies seem so well timed and in such unison that I have to believe that they come from a play book and sales staff meetings, of course, I have no evidence of that, that is my meager opinion.

All of the above is stated by me, merely a man who actually thinks that DVC is the greatest thing in the world. But, in whose humble OPINION, believe DVC sales has some problems.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[This message was edited by Richyams on 02-14-01 at 11:06 AM.]

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can call this all "my opinon', fine, but I am right. [/quote]


...and that also is just your opinion!

:D

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[Richyams]

LOL, DOC......

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[kamgen]

Just wanted to say that we bought an add on at VB and we love it there. Well, if they don't sell more than we won't have a booking problem! :)
No seriously, I think their marketing of VB is all wrong. Still, it is a wonderful place and apparently a well kept secret!!
Kamgen :)

Off site '94
AllStar-Movies '99
DxL '00 Honeymoon
DVC Member 4/00
BWV 9/00
VB 9/00
DCL-Wonder 1/01
OKW 1/01
Upcoming:
BWV 12/01
DCL-Magic 12/29/01

[JudithM]

DTHOMAS, I received an email from a DVC cast member who suggests you write your letter to Terri Schultz, Director of Administration, Finance & Member Services. I don't have an address in front of me, but I imagine you can find one among your DVC information. I have seen/heard Terri at the OKW annual meetings when she presented the annual budget information. She seems very knowledgeable & seems to care about member's concerns, feelings, thoughts, etc. Please let us know when you get a response.

[PamOKW]

I believe the address would be:

Disney Vacation Club
200 Celebration Place
Celebration, FL 34747

[dthomas]

Thank you very much for your quick reply. I just want to voice my concern about the "slippery slope" I see going on. I feel new DVC members are treated unfairly when it comes to "point value". I would hate to see that trend continue.

[garrett79]

Can anyone explain the subsidy that was withdrawn and what it represents? additionally, if VB is selling so poorly can Disney sell it to Marriott or some other developer?

[Richyams]

Originally, VB was supposed to be a MUCH larger resort. They had plans to expand it where it sits and on "the other side of the raod". The original dues were the lowest of all the DVC resorts after the subsidy was counted. Dosney subsidized the dues to put in the share for the unbuilt units. They did make original buyers aware that this subsidy might end of the extra construction never happens.

Several years ago, they announced the "shelving"(cancellation) of the plans for the extra construction and took the extreme move of ending the subsidy. The subsidy for original buyers either ends this year or next...I think, someone will correct that. For several years, new buyers at VB have had to pay the unsubsidized dues, just under $4 per point, this year.

DVC sales uses this as a lie also. They say "Sure VB dues are highest now, but they were lowest once, dues vary, they may be lowest again"

Someone may come up with some Clintonesque reason as to why that is not a lie, but without telling people that the only reason the dues were ever lowest was because of a subsidy that has ended because of disappointing sales, it is a lie by omission. A lie by any other name....

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Richyams]

And yes, Disney could sell Vero, they could divest themselves of any of the DVC resorts. I think it is highly unlikely....especially with the backlash they would get from having sold so many points for use at WDW.

But it is clearly laid out in your paperwork that it could happen. I think farfetched and remote describe the possibility even better....but, if one of them had to go, I would say that VB would be first.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[garrett79]

That is the way I interpreted it while reading it last night. I just do not want to see myself owning at a Marriott Club 10 years from now. Does Disney subsidize the other resorts?

[kamgen]

but it seems like you, richyams, imho, have some terrible grudge against VB.
And to call something "clintonesque"? give me a break. We were never told anything about the dues and as far as dues go, they are NOT a factor for us when we bought in. We will buy into a place we like, end of story.
Just mho.

Off site '94
AllStar-Movies '99
DxL '00 Honeymoon
DVC Member 4/00
BWV 9/00
VB 9/00
DCL-Wonder 1/01
OKW 1/01
Upcoming:
BWV 12/01
DCL-Magic 12/29/01

[TampaDisneyFreaks]

I have to ask some questions of Rich. I have read many of his postings and agree with many that his OPINIONS are usually presented zeallously and somties harshly and he sometimes makes me want to slap him upside the head, however they are a welcomed perspective b/c I feel that we should be able to hear ALL sides of every story. We are all entitled to our opinions (as long as we respect each others opinions). I also enjoy reading his opinions (even if I totally disagree) because it gets everyone fired up and gets some really good dialogue going here. Anyway, my questions for Rich are about his views of the value of the points diminishing. I guess I am probably missing something here, but I am not following his argument for the point values diminishing. Rich, could you explain (maybe even use numbers if need be) WHY you feel the point values are diminishing, or how you arrived at that? Also, I was wondering, do you have proof that DVC will never ever built off site again? This is strictly my opinion/conjecture/guess/wish, but I see that they have on site resorts, a golf resort (HH), and a beach resort (VB). I would like to see (and I think they COULD do this) Disney build a mountain getaway resort, maybe on a lake (maybe in TN, NC, NY, or out West). I think it would be viable and would be a great idea. Maybe we could write to DVC with our suggestions for new resorts as well.

[Richyams]

There has never been another subsiduzed resort.

I think that the chances of them selling VB are quite remote.

Grudge???? I have described VB as one of the most besutiful resorts on the planet...how is that a grudge?

I have stated again and again that I am very happy to have it as an option for a vacation, how is that a grudge??

I like the term "Clintonesque" because it would describe a meandering means with which to support the statement "VB dues were lowest once, dues vary, they could be agian" as not being a lie by ommission.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[JudithM]

Pam. thanks for the DVC address - I didn't want to post a wrong number or something :).

Dthomas, be sure to write to Terri. I have always found DVC management cast memebers (my phrase, not Disney's) to be willing to listen; to explain why, how, etc.

[garrett79]

Can the dues change at any other resort? Why would Disney only subsidize VB?

[Richyams]

There has never been another subsiduzed resort.

I think that the chances of them selling VB are quite remote.

Grudge???? I have described VB as one of the most besutiful resorts on the planet...how is that a grudge?

I have stated again and again that I am very happy to have it as an option for a vacation, how is that a grudge??

I like the term "Clintonesque" because it would describe a meandering means with which to support the statement "VB dues were lowest once, dues vary, they could be agian" as not being a lie by ommission.

The diminishing value of points....that is not wuite what I meant. I have stated this before and I do think it has merit.

When BWV opened up with its higher point schedule then OKW for the substantially smaller rooms, it is pretty easy to see that the location of the BWV is valuable. The entire Boardwalk area and the proximity to EPCOT are VERY serious pluses...now a point spent at OKW has roughly the same value as a point spent at BWV....obviously, these are judgement calls, but real estate has certain things that are inherantly valuable....size of the unit and location being to very basic measures. Larger size makes up for less desireable location....smaller units are made up for with more desireable location.

So it is very easy to support the idea that a point spent at OKW and a point spent at BWV have roughly the same value.

Now we get to VWL, VWL has the same small units as BWV. SInce VWL has NO standard view, the points for the average room are actually higher at VWL then BWV, only marginilly, but still at least the same. You also get a substantially less valuable location....some may argue which is more desirable, but city prices always command more then rural prices....now you have the same sized units as BWV with a less valuable location for the same or more points per night....ergo, a point spent at VWL returns less value then a point spent at either OKW or BWV.

If the trend continies and BCV has the same small units, it has the same loccation, and has even higher points per night, then you are getting the same thing as BWV for more points....again, a point spent at BCV returns less value then a point spent at BWV or OKW.....is BCV a more upscale resort then BWV??? I don't know, I never thought so until I heard that said here.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Richyams]

Garret, I explained the reason for the subsidy....it was to contribute for the rooms that weren't built yet. When sales did not support the building of the extra rooms, the plans were shelved and the subsidy ended.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[PamOKW]

All the DVC resorts are subsidized in their early days of development. The developer DVD kicks in a share of the dues monies.

Vero is being built as a phased condominium. Details are included in the Public Offering Statement a purchaser receives. I am working off of a 1996 POS where the expected completed buildout would be 436 Vacation Homes. At that time there were 35 DVC declared Vacation Homes. The reasoning is that the pool, infrastucture, etc. necessary to support the entire resort were being built prior to the build out of units. Here's the wording, "In an effort to afford all existing Owners and current Purchasers with a fair and equitable Annual Dues assessment, DVD has agreed to commit to the existing Owners and current Purchasers through December 31, 2001 that the net annual assessment for Common Expenses of the Vero Beach Resort imposed upon such existing Owners and current Purchasers shall be based upon the assumption that 436 Vacation Homes (5,571,000 Vacation Points) have actually been added to the Vero Beach Resort. Therefore, existing Owners and Current Purchasers will not pay in excess of $2.1018 per Vacation Point in 1996...." They go on to explain that as of 12/31/2001 the dues will be based upon the actual number of Vacation Homes. In 1996 dollars based on 35 Homes that would have meant $4.1174 vs. $2.1018. Giant bold letters advise a potential purchaser to consider the possibility of higher assessments before purchasing. For people purchasing after 1998 they changed the dues assessment. Not sure what if any subsidy they were given.

I can't find this year's budget but I do know that as of the 2000 Dues Statement they had 63 Vacation Homes declared into DVC inventory. Anyone with a new DVC POS might be able to get a better feel for what the future plans are for building out the resort.

[garrett79]

Pam, from you interpretation of that, would you expect the dues to increase after 12/31/01?Thanks

[PamOKW]

I'm not sure whether new purchasers like yourself are receiving any subsidy. If not (as I suspect) then I would expect the dues for everyone to be approximately the same as new purchasers paid this year, somewhere in the neighborhood of $4/point. As you can see in the dues history I've got the dues have actually gone down:

Pre-1998
1996 $2.8182
1997 2.8987 +2.86%
1998 2.762 -4.72%
1999 2.8244 +2.26%
2000 2.8675 +1.53%
2001 2.7036 -5.72%

Post 1998

1999 3.9902
2000 4.0765 +2.16
2001 3.9726 –2.55%

[garrett79]

Pam, Thanks for the lucid explanation and the facts you provided. My wife will be interested to see these.Do you think the points carry the same value from resort to resort?

[Richyams]

Understand, all points have the exact same value. Home resort doesn't matter at all...except for the booking window. Someone could make an argument about higher dues really lower the value of a point, I don't really agree.

All points have the exact same value.

My thesis is that a point spent at BWV returns a higher value then a point spent at VWL.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[LooHoo]

Totally disagree with your thesis. BWV had in place the exact same point structure as WLV has now. People complained and now they have two differnt view selections with point values. Too many people bought with the intention of only using the lower point calculation and with only 20% of the rooms at the lower level its not a good thing. Dvc did not want to make the same mistake again at the Lodge location. Staight point usage across the boards. The same amount of points as Boardwalk was initially for all rooms now called preferred view. Some have argued that it costs more to stay at the Boardwalk than at Wilderness Lodge, but your comaring WDW resorts and not DVC resorts. Boardwalk as a hotel charges more per night than Wilderness Lodge because thier rooms are larger. Not because it offers more amenities. Both are delux one has larger rooms hence the price increase. Now the DVC rsorts at these locations are both the smae size units so they are not valued differently. Location is another argument that you have used in your equation . You think that BWV has a better location. Purely subjective and really unsubstantiated when you look at the theme park attendance records. Magic Kingdom still beats Epcot by over5% every year and MGM by I think 7% therfor, most would benefit by being next to the most popular park where they frequent the most. Not to mention that Wilderness Lodge has been there most popular resort over the past 2 years as opposed to BWV. The point structure for WLV has not increased and it offers every bit of value that BWV offers and to me becuse it is a baot ride away from the Kingdom it is priceless. Sales are so fast there that many people are proving my point for me. The location is one of the most popular in all WDW.

[PamOKW]

Garrett I may look at it too simply but I feel my points are my "money" to spend on vacations. Some resorts or other options cost more and I'll be spending my money faster. I don't think spending them at the deluxe resorts is good value but I did enjoy my GF stay and didn't have to lay out any additional real cash to do it.

Okay...dare I tread on the 11th month issue again? If you have a specific time period, resort and accomodation that you must stay at then it is very important to call at the 11 month window to be guaranteed that you will get exactly what you want. This is compounded by busy and/or popular times of the year and for instances where you cannot wait to see if something will work out. The true importance is the actual day that is 11 months from when you need that resort. If you call at 10 months you do not have that guarantee (Hey, maybe that's where DVC got the idea to ask about going to only one month home resort advantage?)

However, there have been examples lately of people calling and asking about rooms on very short notice and being accomodated. I think on the resort board a DVC member remarked about calling for something next week and got it. She was very flexible as to which resort and which unit. For last minute trips it certainly doesn't matter what your home resort is. I think people are starting to book at the 11 month mark for what they think they want and then others will have to wait it out and see who cancels. (Maybe that's why DVC has the % amounts you can bank? That forces people to decide and free up things for others.)

Hmmm the more I start to think about things the more sense the whole DVC progam begins to make. Do you think someone at Disney has given this some thought, too? Do you think that they may have worked out a fairly decent exchange program that isn't totally reliant on home resort but instead offers a fluid exchange program? Nah! ;)

[LooHoo]

PamOKW'

YES YES YES!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT ALONE ANYMORE!!!!!!!

[WebmasterDoc]

Pam- obviously you have spent way too much time thinking about this! ;) Your comments are way too logical and rational to even warrant comment! ;)
No way that that those ignorant folks at DVC could possibly have even considered something as straightforward and sensible as what you have suggested because their only mission is to mislead as many people as possible into joining this "obviously" flawed and failed program! ;)

Thanks for your post! :D :D :D

[Tiggeriffic]

I think that some people may be confusing what certain salespeople do with what Disney is trying to do. I certainly believe from the testimonials presented on this board that salespeople are pushing VB to people who want to mainly stay at WDW. However, I've also seen many testimonials stating that they were told by salespeople to buy where they want to stay, including myself.

So, I haven't seen any evidence that Disney/DVC is pushing this idea. I've also seen many salespeople lie about cars to make a sale. Why do they do this? Most likely it's because they make a commission on the sale and they believe that they should do whatever it takes to make the sale.

Do I believe that DVC/Disney should address these issues with their salespeople? Yes, I think they should. However, given that most people that have described their experiences here have had positive ones, I believe that the deceptive sales practices are the exception and not the rule.

Just my opinion.

:-)

[garrett79]

LooHoo, DOC, Pam thanks for stating things so clearly. I cannot wait for Labor day at BWV. I also cannot wait to do the exchange program.

[PamOKW]

There are a lot more things I should be doing but what the heck...I'll keep playing with numbers.

I just read over my own dues history and the light bulb went on. In 1996 the Vero POS statement warned that as of 12/31/2001 dues would no longer have a subsidy. As an example, they said that in 1996 dollars the cost would be $4.1174 if it wasn't subsidized. This year's dues for post-1998 purchasers was $3.9726. So in in this comparison the dues have actually decreased ever so slightly. I don't think skyrocketing dues at Vero should be a concern.

[Richyams]

No, I think that Disney has proven that skyrocketing dues are not a concern. I think Disney's experience in mantaining resorts of all levels has allowed them to make an EXTREMELY accurate estimate of what the actual costs would be.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?