Value of a point spent at a resort

[Richyams]

This has nothing to do with the home resort of a point.


My theory:

When BWV opened up with its higher point schedule then OKW for the substantially smaller rooms, it is pretty easy to see that the location of the BWV is valuable. The entire Boardwalk area and the proximity to EPCOT are VERY serious pluses...now a point spent at OKW has roughly the same value as a point spent at BWV....obviously, these are judgement calls, but real estate has certain things that are inherantly valuable....size of the unit and location being to very basic measures. Larger size makes up for less desireable location....smaller units are made up for with more desireable location.

So it is very easy to support the idea that a point spent at OKW and a point spent at BWV have roughly the same value.

Now we get to VWL, VWL has the same small units as BWV. SInce VWL has NO standard view, the points for the average room are actually higher at VWL then BWV, only marginilly, but still at least the same. You also get a substantially less valuable location....some may argue which is more desirable, but city prices always command more then rural prices....now you have the same sized units as BWV with a less valuable location for the same or more points per night....ergo, a point spent at VWL returns less value then a point spent at either OKW or BWV.

If the trend continies and BCV has the same small units, it has the same location, and has even higher points per night, then you are getting the same thing as BWV for more points....again, a point spent at BCV returns less value then a point spent at BWV or OKW.....is BCV a more upscale resort then BWV??? I don't know, I never thought so until I heard that said here.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Werner Weiss]

The Villas at Wilderness Lodge are part of the terrific Wilderness Lodge Resort complex, and it's the only DVC resort with a desirable Magic Kingdom location.

There's boat service to the Magic Kingdom, Fort Wilderness, and Disney's Contemporary. The Magic Kingdom is the number one park at WDW. The amenities of Fort Wilderness (horseback riding, Hoop-di-Doo Revue, River Country, and more) are easily accessible. And the restaurants of the Contemporary (including the California Grill) and of the Wilderness Lodge are among the best at WDW. Also, it's a lot more fun to rent a boat on Bay Lake and Seven Seas Lagoon than on Boardwalk's Crescent Lake.

Some people may prefer the BWV locations, others may prefer the VWL location. I don't think that one is clearly superior or inferior to the other.

I think it's great that the number of points needed for accomodations are the same. It will make planning and point budgeting much easier. At the seven-month window, I'll try to get whichever is available. (Our points are at OKW.)

DVC members are now lucky to have three resorts at WDW available to them. Each has a different feeling, each has advantages, and each is wonderful in its own way.

-----
Werner Weiss, Curator of Yesterland (http://www.yesterland.com), featuring discontinued Disneyland attractions

[wdwnut]

hi rich: i hadn't heard anything about the upcoming bcv points being more than bwv or vwl. is there something that indicates this to be the case? i think it's kind of nice to have such variety in all 3 of the current dvc locations at wdw. i'll really have to try okw and see if the larger units make up for the location. it will be kind of hard to talk the teens into this, but i'll manage it one of these years. thanks for such an interesting poll. dee

[LooHoo]

I hate to reiterate what I already posted but here goes. Totally disagree with your thesis. BWV had in place the exact same point structure as WLV has now. People complained and now they have two different view selections with point values. Too many people boght in with the intention of using the lower point calculation and with only 20% of the rooms at the lower level it is not a good thing. DVC did not want to make the same mistake twice again at the Lodge location. Straight point usage across the board. The san\me amount of points as BWV was initially for all rooms now called perferred view. Some have argued that it costs more to stay at the Boardwalk as a hotel than the Wilderness Lodge, but your comparing WDW resorts and not DVC resorts. Boardwalk as a hotel charges more per night than Wilderness Lodge because their rooms are larger. Not because it offers more ammenities. Both are delux hotels one has larger rooms hence the price difference. Now the DVC resorts at these locations are both the same size units so they are not valued any differently. Location is another argumant that you have used in your equation. You think that BWV has a better location. Purely subjective and really unsubstantiated when you look at the theme park attendance records. Magic Kingdom still beats Epcot by 5% every year and MGM by about 7%. Therefor, most would benefit by being next to the most popular theme park where they tend to visit the most. Not to mention that Wilderness Lodge has been the most popular resort over the past 2 years as opposed to BWV. The point structure is exactly the same for WLV has not increased and it offers every bit of value per point that BWV offers. To me it because it is a boat ride away from the Magic Kingdom it is priceless. Sales are so fast there that many people are proving my point for me. The location is one of the most popular in all of WDW.

[drusba]

I agree that VWL is a very nice resort. But, this is a valid question--is it actually the same as BWV or is one a little better because of location or something else. I, for one, was disappointed that VWL came in at points equal to BWV preferred. Conceptually, it is not anywhere near as ideally located as BWV. When the point structure came out, I thought the thing to do was ask the true expert, Disney itself, which resort it believes is better. Of course, there is no person to talk to but there is one measure of how Disney views its resorts--price structure. For example, GF is more expensive than all others because Disney has long believed that is its No. 1 premier resort. When you ask , "What does Disney charge for rentals at these resorts?" the answer is that at Boardwalk it charges $15 more per night for studios and 1BR, and significantly more than that for a 2BR, than it charges at VWL. As Disney's opinion is that VWL should cost less, I will agree and assert therefore that the points should be less too.

[jennybobenny]

I totally agree with your theory Rich.

Right now we're trying to decide whether to stay at BWV for the location or OKW for the size. VWL would only enter into the picture for it's 'theme' but unfortunately 'theme' comes in a distant third when compared to location and size. Yes, VWL has a great location but it doesn't really compare to BWV. BWV is a destination in itself. Sure VWL is convenient to MK, but BWV is even more convenient (within walking distance) to both MGM and Epcot. For us the decision is between OKW and BWV. Don't get me wrong - I love the Wilderness Lodge and am awestruck every time I walk into the lobby. I'm just not willing to spend the same amount of points to stay there as I would spend to stay at BWV.

I'm hoping the points for BCV will be the same as
VWL and BWV. I certainly wouldn't spend more points to stay across the lake, unless of course the villas were the same size as OKW but we know that's not going to happen.

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<font face="Class Garmnd BT"><font color="ff69b4"><big>Jennybºoº benny</big></font>
<font color="9400d3">~~DVC Member~~
Onsite: Poly '76, Contemp '98, BWV '99, CBR '00, BWV '00, CBR '01
Offsite: '74 '80 '82 '88
Next trip: AKL/BWV~June '01, BWV~Nov '01</font>
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[TampaDisneyFreaks]

I think comparing VWL and BWV is comparing apples and oranges. The accommodations and points are same, but everything else is different, especially in the intrinsic value of the resort to each person. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, and they will differ based on each individual person, especially regarding location. I did vote that I agree and am worried. That is because I am not worried about BWV point values vs. VWL. The resorts and locations are too different to accurately compare. What worries me is BWV compared to BCV. BWV and BCV should be essentially the same resort (location, amenities, etc.). If BCV and BWV are the same points wise, then there is no problem. If BCV is more points, then there is a problem and your point is totally validated. Of course, if that happens, Disney will more than likely just say higher contruction costs (and also raise price per point).

[LooHoo]

Drusba,
I think what we need to take into account when comparing that pricing is that Disney is pricing the property in proportion to the resort it has to compete with for A DVC resort. In other words WLV competes with Wilderness Lodge and offers somewhat of an incentive to pull from that market. BWV competes with the Boardwalk and they pull from that market. I think they adjust the price for the individual market it competes with rather than DVC VS. DVC. Did that make sense or was it clear as mud? Anyway to pull from Wilderness Lodge from their paying guests you must offer a little incentive as compared to Wilderness Lodge not BWV.

[Richyams]

Werner

I really believe that the Boardwalk area itself is something that VWL doesn't have anything that compares. I agree completely that it is a great resort with a great location and great amenities. I think BWV, with the boardwalk area and the three minote walk to EPCOT makes the location a notch higher.

Just as the argument between the city mouse and the country mouse, the city mouse has a smaller house that is actually worth more money, the country mouse(VWL) has a larger house, VWL are not larger, worth less money. Reasonable people can certainly disagree on which is more attractive, but the city mouse(BWV) clearly has something worth more money.

I just LOVE mouse arguments!!!!

I think that these reasons support my theory.

Werner, I think you know that I always value your opinion, thanks.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Dumbo]

Not to throw a monkey wrench into Rich's thread, but here is something that always puzzled me. Maybe you guys can help me understand this.

When VWL opened they raised the price per point to $72. per point. I can understand the reasoning for the price increase for a newly built resort considering riseing construction costs, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Beach Club Villas starts selling at $80 per point.

But why do they raise the price equally at the other resorts? My goodness, Hilton Head and Vero Beach are over 5 years old. Why are they selling these resorts for $72 per point?

Dumbo

[Dean]

It's no secret that I'm an OKW fan, but love the BW also. When WLV was announced, my wife and I said we must add on there. Well the points came in the same as BW preferred view (overal 20% more than BW) and the price went up twice in 6 months to $72 pp. So guess what, no more plans to add on. The WL is our favorite hotel, I just don't see the value of WLV compared to the alternatives. Sure it will be better for some than any other location but this is more about the overal perceptions of the group of people spending the money.

FTR, BCV will be more points per room that BWV, I guarantee it and would be willing to put money on it. Fairfiled has used this technique very effectively of devaluing the old points by raising the points required at the new and most desirable resorts. BC is slightly more upscale that BW and even if they had been built at the same time, BC would have been slightly higher points.

Dean

[Bennet]

OK I am easily confused:

Richyams DIS Veteran Wrote
---------------------------------------
...So it is very easy to support the idea that a point spent at OKW and a point spent at BWV have roughly the same value.

And he also wrote:

Personally, I would buy OKW at $75 before I would buy BWV at $55.

BWV units are too small, the points are too high per night, its too loud at night, and the dues are too high.
----------------------------------

Roughly the same value or 75/55?

In the immortal words of the Budweiser guys: Whaaaatsuuuuuppppp?

BD
:D

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</A>
</P>
**UPDATED AGAIN! 2/10/01** MORE Disney silliness: Buzz's Spin, Parks, <font size="4"> Classic Toy Story Parade (http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/classic_toy_story.htm)</font> and
the Unfortunate Footwear of Walt Disney World: http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/

[MN_DizNut]

From the perspective of one who has been anxiously anticipating the opening of the VWL in order to finally officially "join the club", the fact that WL has nothing like the boardwalk area is exactly what makes it a MUCH more desirable location for me. I love the busyness of the parks, downtown Disney, etc, but most of all I love being able to get away from the bustle and relax when I'm back at my room.

VWL could be much more expensive (in terms of points per night) and for me, would still be a far greater value

[Richyams]

That is MY personal preference, MN_DIZNUT has a different preference....MN, have you seen OKW units? Talk about serene and comfortable...

But we are back to the city mouse and the country mouse, while the country mouse prefers the country, the city mouse has more valuable property.....without the rooms being larger or some other compensating factor, the inherant value of a room at VWL is worth less then a night in BWV yet costs the same number of points.

Personel opinons and preferences don't make the Park Avenue address worth less then the Spitoon Falls, Nebraska adress.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[eva]

Even though we are spending 2 nights at VWL this May I do agree with Rich. We are actually staying there just to give them a try and thought this would be a great time to do that since it is only for 2 nights. If it were for a longer period of time we would be at OKW or BWV. I do think that BWV has the best location. It is right on the Boardwalk right in between the Studios and EPCOT. It has nearly unlimited dining options without even having to use WDW tranportation. And we love going to Jellyrolls and the Atlantic Dance Club. We love OKW for the actual units and peaceful atmosphere. I really don't think that VWL will have that same atmosphere. We have eaten at Artist Point a number of times and the pool at WL is usually full and quite active. We just thought that we would give them a try for a short trip and now would be a good time while they are brand new. Hopefully they will be in pristine condition. Actually, we are not planning on buying any passes this trip and I thought that VWL is removed from the parks enough that I might not miss them too much. Well, when we get back we will report whether we think that VWL is really worth a preferred view at BWV.

[dianeschlicht]

The only thing I see coming out of this thread is that we are each happy with where we bought, because that is where we prefer to be. Those of us who have OKW like the serenity and size. BWV people like the hustle, bustle and walk to the parks, VWL people like the embiance of the lodge. In my opinion, that makes all points equal, since we chose to be where we are.ºoººoº

Disneydiane

[Lesley]

As an owner at BWV who loves the theming at VWL, I don't know that I'll actually ever stay there...my reasoning being that I can use substantially less points by reserving a standard view at my 11mo window (and I'm fairly sure almost all of my trips will be planned more than 11mo in advance) and get the wonderful location right between Epcot and MGM. If I'm looking to be away from it all (which is not really my style, but who knows) I'll probably try to book at OKW and save even more points and have larger accomodations.

At one point I really thought I'd want to add on at VWL or BCV, but if my points aren't going to go as far and/or not get me the location I want I think I may very well look into a BWV resale when I'm ready to add on.....


Lesley


1979 Contemporary
1992 Off-site
1994 Carribean Beach
1999 Fort Wilderness and Coronado Springs
2000 Polynesian and Old Key West
2002 Boardwalk Villas

[Lisa F]

I have to say that I heartily disagree with this statement (having stayed in both the BW Inn and the BC). The guest rooms are identical (except for decor) and the lobbies are comperable in scale (ie no huge atrium like in the GF) and finish. There was nothing about the BC that impressed me over the BW Inn (well, the pool is nicer, but dvc members can pool hop so that's kind of a moot point, at least for now). The cost for the rooms in the two resorts are exactly the same.

Lisa

[This message was edited by Lisa F on 02-15-01 at 08:13 AM.]

[RoutemanDan]

Lisa said
"The cost for the rooms in the two resorts are exactly the same. "
______________________________________

Actually BW is $10.00 - $40.00 higher depending on season and type of room. ;)

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/routemandan/NJdvcers.gif>

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/routemandan/Danears.gif>

[Richyams]

Lisa, what happened?? You had an elequent, well supported dissertation that was just so much more clear and concise that I ever could have written.....now you edited that all away, why?

I am afraid that you posted it, looked at it and realized that you agreed with me, so you got rid of it....

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[StevenR]

It's an interesting theory, and valid points are made by all. However, I believe the point value assigned to VWL has less to do with the location or size of accommodations (i.e., which site is most desireable) than it does with the cost of the project to Disney. I suspect Disney took the total cost of VWL (which would be more that BWV or OKW) and divided by the cost per point it could sell to determine the total available points for the property. This was then allocated over the units and nights in the year.

VWL accommodations cost as many points as BWV preferred not because they are deemed to be as desireable as BWV, but because they have to be to recover Disney's investment and profit. I would not be surprised then if BCV require even more points

[PamOKW]

I believe Steven is correct in how they determine the cost per point. Also, since VWL has so few units yet they still included the pool area and other features wouldn't the costs per unit for these be more than OKW or BWV?

[DisneyCrazy]

This is another one of those value vs cost things to me. The value of the resort is what YOU are willing to pay (cash or points) to stay there. The cost is what Disney must charge to recoup expenses and make a (tidy) profit. Remember that each of the resorts were built at different times and therefore the later ones cost more per square foot to construct. So if Disney wants to make money they must charge more points per night (and therefore sell more points) to cover their expenses and make some $$$. I would fully expect BCV to be more points per night than BWV.

So even though WLV is a less desireable location (again debatable) Disney should charge less per night, but the cost to build was MORE so they charge the same (as BWV). I expect DVC's built after the turn of the century (God I've been waiting to use that for a while now) to cost more per night (pointwise).

One could also argue that the price increase in points is to cover this - and I believe this to be PARTIALLY true - but the point/night cost also take into account those (us) pesky OKW people that paid next to nothing (yeah, right!) for their points.

My opinion, YMMV...

-Paul

[mattsdad]

you guys are missing the total picture....VB is by far the best DVC resort!!!

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Personel opinons and preferences don't make the Park Avenue address worth less then the Spitoon Falls, Nebraska adress. [/quote]

If I don't want to live on Park Avenue and long for the cornfields of Spitoon Falls, then the Park Avenue location has no worth at all to me, and I may pay anything to live in Spitoon Falls. If I want to spend my vacation at WL and will not be happy anywhere else, the lower cost of OKW has little attraction. The actual cost per point of staying at a particular resort may be different from another but what makes it worth it (a good value) or not is entirely based on personal preference.
Would Park Avenue real estate cost what it does if nobody wanted to live there?

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[dthomas]

I am not here to debate which WDW DVC is better, worse, etc. The point I would like to make is that I feel DVC is treating new members differently than old members. I feel that each resort is comparable when all things are considered. I do not think it is right for DVC to keep raising the price in the initial cost and keep raising the points per night also. New DVC members should be able to have comparable points at their home resort too. A 20 % or so (just approx. I didn't take time to do exact math) difference in points I feel is not justified.

[Richyams]

The point is that location has value...obviously the country mouse prefers Spitoon Falls, but that doesn't make Park Avenue worth less....obviously, if every didn't like Park Ave, it wouldn't be worth more, but we have standardized values for things.

Those standardized values are what make OKW larger units return a somilar value for a point spent there as BWV smaller units with its more central location.

You can argue your preference all day long, the standard and the reson used for BWV point schedule was the Boardwalk location. I mantain that while VWL may be most atractive to some, its standard value is less becuase it does not have a Boardwalk area or the ability to walk to two parks.....Remember, me personally, I said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And he also wrote:

Personally, I would buy OKW at $75 before I would buy BWV at $55.

BWV units are too small, the points are too high per night, its too loud at night, and the dues are too high.

[/quote]

I agree that the BWV area is not worth it TO ME, but I recognize the standard value placed on real estate, I believe the first three evaluators are location, location and location, the size of the units and peacefulness of the resorts come in a far fourth and fifth. AND VWL have the same sized units at a higher average caost, hence my opinion that a point spent at VWL returns less value then a point spent at BWV.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

dthomas-
You always have the option to buy a resale if the product that Disney is currently offering does not meet your needs or wants.

Rich-
My point is that you shouldn't confuse value with cost. Cost is set by many outside factors (including demand which is based on preference) and is absolute. Value is in the mind of each individual consumer. I can buy the most expensive piece of real estate on the planet at a great price but if I'm not pleased with my purchase it doesn't have much value to me. I think our disagreement is largely semantic... :)

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[This message was edited by HorizonsFan on 02-15-01 at 12:33 PM.]

[dthomas]

I know that I can buy a resale, I did research that option before I bought. It just concerns me about the current trend to raise initial cost(which I completely agree w/construction prices have risen considerably) And also to raise the points per night w/each new DVC WDW resort that is being built. I think DVC has the attitude that they can charge what they want per price and per night(by points) and I just think they should be treating members more equally.

[WebmasterCricket]

dthomas:

Members are NOT equal. I am not guaranteed to get any reservations at any resort other than my home resort, thereby defining me as a OKW member not just a DVC member. Some may believe that members that are not of their own home resort, are either higher up or lower down the scale due to the ability to make reservations at their resort of choice. If I desire to make a VB ressie then I may envy the owners of VB. If I wish to make a OKW ressie, I do, and should feel privliged to do so at the 11 month window. Something that only OKW'res can do, thereby making me at that time un-equal to non-OKW'ers wishing to make the same ressie. I also pay less per point for dues, thereby making my value per point higher than others getting the same ressie who pay more in dues.

JC

[dthomas]

I don't think you are even "guaranteed" reservations at your home resort. My point is that DVC should be raising the initial point cost to pay for the "construction" price of Bldg. But I still think the actual points per night stay should be fairly uniform throughout WDW DVC.

[Richyams]

Mr Cricket and Mr Thomas, I agree with both of you completely. Mr Cricket, I think you are missing DThomas' point. He is speaking of exactly what my theory is about. Regardless of where your home resort is, when you do get into the seven month perion and venture out, will you be more likely to visit a resort that returns a higher or lower value? Now, I hate having to keep qualifying this, but of course there are some that prefer the WL to any place on the planet, some would pay 1000 points a night and are thrilled that the points aren't THAT high....ok, but for the average person using STANDARD vales for real estate....a point spent at VWL returns less value then a point spent at BWV, rather then being a good thing that just doesn't matter....

I believe that this is going to start making an imbalance in availability and demand at the seven month window. BWV is going to be difficult and VWL will be easy, VWL will begin to go unreserved on points as owners there also realize that they get more value for their points when they spend them at BWV...or OKW.

When BCV opens with an even HIGHER point schedule, you eleven month window at BWV and OKW is going to be extremely important, the newer resorts are going to be returning ever lower values for points spent at them. Of course their will be those that love the BCV more then life itself, but in general, the value returned for a point spent there could be even less, not even the owners there are going to be looking to spend their points at BWV and OKW so that they can get higher values for them.

Now, VWL and BCV will be having lower and lower occupancy rates and this will drive up their dues and make seven month availability at OKW and BWV very scarce.

The eleven month window is going to be getting more and more important.

Of course, these are only my dopey opinions and they have no value or basis in reality....how is that DOC???? LOL....

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[This message was edited by Richyams on 02-15-01 at 01:30 PM.]

[RoutemanDan]

Rich,
Everything you are saying makes perfect sense.But,if I'm not mistaken,couldn't DVC change the 11 month window policy, making it only a 1 month advantage for your home resort?

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/routemandan/NJdvcers.gif>

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/routemandan/Danears.gif>

[Richyams]

Yes, they can...it was voted a resounding "NO" on the survey, but they can do it without the consent of the members.

I think that would make the 11 month window even more important.

I see the eleven month window and the idea of buying where you expect to stay most, becoming more and more important as we move forward.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mr Cricket and Mr Thomas, I agree with both of you completely. Mr Cricket, I think you are missing DThomas' point. He is speaking of exactly what my theory is about. [/quote]

How can you agree with 2 people "completely" and then tell one he is wrong because he doesn't get your "theory"?

I'm also not clear on how you figure occupancy rates can cause dues to go higher. If the resort is unreserved by DVC members, Disney will just rent out the villas and return some of that rental to the DVC resort budget (it's called "Breakage Income" and is done now at OKW and BWV).

I do "completely" agree about your opinion this time though, Rich! (...and Thanks for calling it an opinion!) :)

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[WebmasterCricket]

Rich: I did not miss his point. I merely wanted to voice my opinion that all memberships are not created equal.

I do agree that building a less attractive resort where members will attempt to trade into a more attractive resort does affect the importance of the 11 month window.

As far as value is concerned, it is a prefrential thing.
I may never dream of going to BCV due to its upscale nature (we will see about that).
I may never want to go to BWV due to the noise (never noticed it, but if someone says so, then ok it's noisy).
I may never want to go to WLV because of the bugs (I'm making up things to make a point here).

Value is not inherently just location and size. Quality, theming, dues, vicinity and access of the general public etc. all have distinct quantifiable effects on total value.

Also-

If I stay only at my home resort and Disney continues to build resorts that no one truly intends on staying in, then yes your point is valid. Who is to say that the trend will continue? What if the next resort is a no holds barred-70 star deluxe-luxury transportation to the parks included-15 restaraunt-has it's own rides resort? Do you think that the point value/night will decrease for that resort? Not a chance. Justifying the increase per night would be easy. Right? Wrong. The trouble is that those luxury things only hold value for certain people. I may hate all of the restaraunts there, I may not be going to the parks, I may not need the extra room, I may have neck problems and not be able to ride the rides at the resort. To me in that situation, WVL might be a better choice thus making the WVL a much higher value/point than the new 70 star resort ever could be TO ME.


All of that typing to come to this. OKW has had the John Hancock syndrome from the very beginning. Since there was nothing to compare it to, Disney created a very nice resort with very large rooms. Now that they see that they can get more money out of smaller rooms, that's exactly what is going to happen. So, as far as a trend goes, yes I am worried that things will get worse. Hopefully the 2042 deadline will prevent them from goofing it up too much furthur, but that will remain to be seen.

Your quote in your signature says it all Rich. We are not all equal so don't treat us that way.

JC

Of course, I'm usualy wrong about things like this.

[Joeblack]

Rich. Not only do I agree witht the fact that WLV's point value is lower than OKW or BWV's, but I posted the theory about a month ago. Here's the link:

http://wdwinfo.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=40009993&f=14009194&m=434096786

[Richyams]

Busted for plagorism and spelling....darn!!!!


I see that very clearly, I guess I fleshed out the theory a bit more....and I am a bit more vocal. I don't remember if I read your post the first time or not...I may have and you may have been the actual father of this great theory.

I am also glad to see that the large majority agree with me. Many are not worried, but I think that may change if reservations begin to go in the direction I think they will.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[jcodespoti]

I agree with Rich(although I am starting to get lost in all this).
I bought At BWV becouse of the location. At the time I had the choice between BWV and OKW. I knew BW was the place to be(for me. I also like OKW. Rich makes a good point. But since I already own at BWV...i'm gonna sound snobish..I really don't care.
I'm envious(they got to get spell check for this site) though of those people who bought in '91 they got cheaper prices because if we all recall in 1991 the economy stunk, construction prices were low, and Disney really took a gamble that DVC would sell.
Now however is a different story, though the point prices at WLV are about what I expected. I see this all the time in the construction industry, if you got a hot market, there go the prices. Also I'm sure it cost them a fortune for WLV and for BCV.

Joe In CT

[Dean]

I'm a little late in this thread but back to my impression that BC/YC is slightly more upscale than BW, it's just that, my impression. No slight to BW, I personally like it better than YC/BC. However, I see BW as a more active and happening place and BC/YC as a little more laid back, possibly slightly older crowd. Of course the concierge has an affect there too, did you stay in concierge level. Of course we're referring to the Hotels at this point and not the DVC portions as they are not truly comparable. Regardless of my or your subjective feelings or price comparisions about BC/YC vs BWI, my offer to put money on the prediction that the BC points will be higher than BW stands. Not because I'm a betting person, just to show how strongly I feel this will happen. Then again I've been wrong before, I predicted they would have reshuffled the points structure for this year or next and as of yet they have proven me to be wrong. LOL.

Dean

[lizanne]

Rich,

I'm so glad you gave us that last option. The whole time I was reading your post I kept thinking,"Boy, this guy has way too much time on his hands". :D :D :D


Having said that I want you to know I usually read you posts and admire your ability to put into words what you're thinking.

[Peter_noPan]

The important thing to remember is that you need to make your purchase based upon what is there wehn you buy.

If they never built any more properties I would still be happy.

We bought into BWV. Any other options that are given to us on top of that is a bonus.

If you think some require too many point, DON'T STAY THERE.

[Lisa F]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lisa, what happened?? You had an elequent, well supported dissertation that was just so much more clear and concise that I ever could have written.....now you edited that all away, why?
I am afraid that you posted it, looked at it and realized that you agreed with me, so you got rid of it....

[/quote]

Actually, I've agreed with you before (and I do agree with you on this one, for the record). I just posted before I read the thread carefully and realized I was being completely redundant so I deleted it (after I spent too much time on it in the first place). Maybe it was dumb, but sometimes I get caught up in the heat of the moment and then realize I've spent too much energy trying to say the same thing as others have just in a different way. I haven't even read the other 2 pages of the thread yet but after I do if you still need my help defending myself I'll put my argument back together for you :)

Lisa

"You employ stone, wood, and concrete, and with these materials you build house and palaces. That is construction. Ingenuity is at work. But suddenly, you touch my heart, you do me good. I am happy and I say 'This is beautiful.' That is architecture. Art enters in."
-Le Corbusier

[Lisa F]

Let's see if I can reconstruct my argument, being a lot more succinct this time.

It occurs to me that there is a lot of "your argument is bad because it is your OPINION" type rhetoric going on, and a few people who are becoming offended because it seems as though their favorite resort (whatever it may be) is being called inferior to another. That is not my intent in writing this argument at all and I am going to be trying to stay away from using words like "better" in regard to any of the resorts.

Anyway, here are the facts as I see them.

BWV is in a central location on WDW property (pull out a site map if you think this is my "opinion" and see what is right in the middle of the map.) From the BWV you can walk to 2 out of the 4 major parks. The BWV is also right on top of Disney's second most popular nighttime spot.

OKW is not in the center of WDW property. From OKW you can walk to 0 of the 4 major parks. Although there is no nice transportation to any of the major parks, there is the boat to Downtown Disney which falls somewhere between the nighttime activities at the BW and the daytime fun of a major park.

Rooms are smaller at BWV, yet more expensive, but people are willing to tolerate that because of the benefits of staying at BWV. OKW doesn't have most of those benefits, but the rooms are larger and the points per night cost is lower. For this reason the two choices seem fairly balanced... one costs more but offers more to make up for it.

Now Disney has added in the VWL. It is close to one major park and has interesting (meaning non-bus, which seems to be the lowest common denominator at WDW in regard to transportation) to that park, ie the boat. However, because of the way Disney operates that transportation, it makes it more difficult to get to and from the MK than it is to get to and from MGM or Epcot when you are staying at the BWV. Although the boat is nice, we have always had to wait forever for one. Additionally the boat that runs to the contemporary is seasonal and only runs during the high season. That doesn't buy me much if I want to eat at a monorail resort during January. Additionally, the boat between WL and MK doesn't run all the time (E-ride nights are an example of when I'd be MOST likely to want to use the boat and it doesn't run). Also, there is are no extraordinary nighttime activities at VWL, nor are the rooms larger than at BWV.

VWL costs even MORE than BWV, but does it really offer more (or even as much?) This argument is meant to be purely quantitative and not really qualitative (ie I am not making a judgement about which is "better" and whether being near Epcot is better than being near MK or vice versa. For the purpose of my argument I am treating the 4 major parks as somewhat equal since I'm sure that we all have our favorites for various reasons.)

The reason this concerns Rich, myself and others is that those of us who bought into the older dvc resorts, who bought in because we love the flexibility of DVC, are seeing Disney do things that will severely limit our flexibility. If it costs so much more to stay at a resort other than our home resort that doesn't exactly encourage us to try out the other resorts (although I personally can't wait to give VWL a try, I suspect that it will be a one time shot unless I can't get anything else).

Additionally, we are afraid it would make our own resorts more difficult to get into after the 7 month window opens up. I know it's best to plan at the 11 month window (and I do that most of the time myself). But there are the occasional trips that are semi-last minute and if someone who owns BCV points can stay right next door at the BWV for significantly less points, why would they stay at their home resort?

Disney seems to really be on its way toward skewing things and making it more difficult for all members to enjoy the flexibility that DVC offers. I hope that this is not a trend in raising points per night, but rather that "preferred" view points become the norm across the board.

I firmly believe that points schedules should not be related to constructions costs and inflation and all that kind of nonsense... that's why we bought into DVC in the first place... to avoid all that. If it costs that much more to build a resort then it should be reflected in the cost to buy into that resort, period. That is most definately my opinion, but I believe it is an informed one.

Lisa

"You employ stone, wood, and concrete, and with these materials you build house and palaces. That is construction. Ingenuity is at work. But suddenly, you touch my heart, you do me good. I am happy and I say 'This is beautiful.' That is architecture. Art enters in."
-Le Corbusier

[Richyams]

Thank you....but you left out the mouses...I really like an argument with a mouse.

I thnk your quantification of the value recieved is very good. I relied on location, country mouse and city mouse, but you go farther and quantify what those qualities entail...you even convinced me more!!

The part that worries me is just what you said also....the competition at the seven month window is going to be fierce. I think that we are going to be forced to stay at our home resorts more and more often...I don't mind, I do anyway, but the short notice trip or changed plans are going to get harder and harder to deal with.

So now that DOC chimed in, I guess almost everyone agrees with my stolen theory.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[redhit96]

No Rich, you blew it, your OKW points are not worth the same as BWV, get over it.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/alcheshire_cat.gif

[susan@htcnet.com]

Ok, at the risk of having rich accuse me of littering again...

I hate WL...it is too dark.....my kids love it. So we are staying at WLV this trip to try it out.

I love the locaiton of BWV, but HATE the walk to the rooms and being so far from our car (ok, so we use valet, but we have to use it a LOT because we forget and leave things in our car). I don't like the restaurant choices at BWV, either...but we stay there every trip because it is neat to walk to Epcot in the evening....

I can't wait for BCV--I love the pinks and pastels and hope it is closer to the parking lot.

Susan (who is so sick of black ice)in Nebraska
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[dmadman43]

Rich,

Help me out here. Maybe I'm missing something, but why all the angst? If I bought at the location at which I prefer to stay, which is what you recommend to new buyers, then why worry about the point costs of WVL? If I own at OKW and prefer to stay at OKW, why should I worry about those suffering at WVL? What should I be worried about? Are you postulating that the point values at WVL and, eventually BCV will have an effect on the point values for stays at the other resorts? Unless I'm missing something, I understand this argument if there was equal availabilty at all resorts for new buyers. But, for those of us that already own, why care?

[Richyams]

If you read my most recent post, Lisa's post and several other of my posts, I talk very specifically about the problems I foresee it causing.

The problem has many facets, one of which is when someone buys at BCV, not all, but some....I don't feel like making that qualification AGAIN, so when some buy at BCV because Disney convinced them that resales were silly, and they see that they get a high value for their points when they spend them at BWV rather then BCV, the demand for BWV will go up higher then it already is at the seven month window.

See my other posts, and Lisa has some good reasoning also, for further reasons that I see it as a bad thing.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Richyams]

Are people aware that REDHIT who posted above here a few posts is the banned CalybayBWV?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[redhit96]

dmadman,

I think rich has completely gone off the deep end over his regret resulting from owning too many OKW (the worst onsite DVC resort)points, and not having the financing to do something about it.

I suggest we all contribute a dollar per year in the "Get Rich Points Weston-Bo Push Coalition"!

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/alcheshire_cat.gif

[Lisa F]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, for those of us that already own, why care? [/quote]

I generally stay at the BWV because I love it there. We had to try out OKW a couple of times because there was nothing available at the BWV and I have come to the conclusion that if we treated my parents to a trip, they would enjoy OKW more than BWV. On our upcoming trip in march, some dear friends are staying at the WL and we are taking the opportunity to try out VWL and stay close to them. If we were just going on our own, we would choose BWV hands down, but there are circumstances that make us really appreciate the flexibility that DVC offers.

That flexibility is one of the things that really sold us on DVC. The other thing that sold us is Disney quality and stability. We know they are not going to pack up and disappear in the night with our money, we know that when they sign a contract they will be accountable for it.

If the trend of raising point costs per night for DVC rooms when it is not reflected in the cash price for those very rooms continues, it threatens both the flexibility that we were sold on, and the stability that we have come to expect from Disney. As I said before, the whole points system is meant to shield our vacations as much as possible from things like rising cost of living, inflation etc.

I have no problem with Disney raising their prices for those who buy in and if a new resort was built that I loved, I wouldn't have a problem with paying a price that the market could bear for those points. IMO that is an entirely different matter from skewing the points charts in the way Disney seems to be doing. Maybe this level of points will be the "norm" across the board, in which case I would be okay with it... but I guess only time will tell.

As to why any of us should care, I don't know about you, but we spent a lot of hard earned money buying into DVC and I care very much about the decisions they make that affect me and my future enjoyment of the program.

Lisa

"You employ stone, wood, and concrete, and with these materials you build house and palaces. That is construction. Ingenuity is at work. But suddenly, you touch my heart, you do me good. I am happy and I say 'This is beautiful.' That is architecture. Art enters in."
-Le Corbusier

[drusba]

Anyone who saw the movie The Right Stuff may remember the scene where John Glen begins chastising all the other astronauts for their after hours activities. Alan Sheppard shouts at Glen telling him he is way out of hand and an argument ensues, in the midst of which Gus Grissom shouts out that the problem isn't women, "It's monkeys." Everybody stares at him for a few moments incredulous, lightbulbs go off, and one by one the other astronauts pick up the theme, "What Gus is saying here..." And the discussion turns to their being considered monkeys instead of pilots.

So taking a few copyright liberties-- "What Rich is saying here..."

Is that the problem is really not VWL, or at most that is only a minor one. It's BCV. Its going to have the same size rooms as BWV. It's going to be located in the same area as BWV. In fact, it will not quite be as ideally located as BWV--it will not be on the lake, it will not have its main pool right near the units, it will not be actually connected to to its sister hotel resort. People who will be buying BCV will for the most part be the same kind of people who wanted to buy at BWV. They will have within walking distance all the same things that owners of BWV have. Now what happens if the points needed for BCV are 10 to 15% more per night than what is needed for BWV. Those BCV owners will look at BWV as a less inexpensive option that gives them exactly the same things they would get at BCV. In other words, why not try to grab BWV exactly at the 7 month window and get everything you want as if you stayed at BCV but also get an extra night on the same number of total points.

Moreover, those 150 point packages aren't going to go far at BCV if points are higher than BWV. Buyers at BCV will see even a greater bargain if they just go with OKW for a stay; e.g, for the same number of points they will likely be able to get three extra nights at OKW in comparison to BCV. OKW will become a super bargain for owners of BCV raising OKW demand at 7 months.

Meanwhile, with its points so high, owners at BWV aren't going to be chomping at the bit to stay at BCV--why pay more points for the same location as your home resort BWV. And owners at VWL and OKW who want to take that once in a while excursion to the activity center of an Epcot Resort certainly aren't going to choose BCV over BWV for that stay--they will just try for BWV at 7 months. Even owners at HH and VB who want to stay on site aren't going to perceive that there is a difference between staying at BCV and BWV and thus if they are looking for an Epcot resort they will also try for BWV. In other words, if you think it is tough to get BWV now with a 7 month window wait until BCV shows up at higher points.


=

[Richyams]

Exactly, and not to stir up anyone in particular, but I hope people that bought at VB and HH plan to spend their vacations at VB and HH.

I do think VWL will also be a factor in this, but not as serious and black and white as BCV. That is also why every single one of my posts have included the word "trend". I expect BCV to cause us all a problem.

The eleven month window is going to be ever more important as we move forward.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[redhit96]

Call me Tom Hanks or a monkey or even a spawn of Darwins theory of evoloution, but methinks the BWV owners have stuck a pot o gold!

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/alcheshire_cat.gif

[PKK/MJK]

Come on , people. We don't need that nonsense going on here. People should be grown up enough to have a civil discussion.

To susan@htcnet.com---Wow!! I thought I was the only person in the world who didn't particularly care for VWL!!!! It's beautifully done--as all the Disney resorts are--but I agree, it is too dark for my tastes. That's why it is so nice that we have such a diversity of styles to choose from--something for everyone.

And just for the record, I think Rich and Lisa explained the situation perfectly.

Phil and Mary Jo
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/dvclogo.gif
WDW--82,83,85,87,89,93,95,96, 97,98,99,00,01
DVC/OKW

[susan@htcnet.com]

Phil and Mary Jo,
I think one of the reasons WL is too dark for me is that we go in Jan-Feb and we want it to be sunny.

If we went in the summer, we might prefer it to be dark and cool.

I also have a big problem with some of the color schemes of the resorts and wonder what the deal is...the colors of the cast building across from dd are really weird. Is there some kind of psycology at work here?
Susan in Nebraska


:eek: :eek: :eek: (and I love these little guys)

[dianeschlicht]

DVC is usually such a happy place. Let's play nice Red.

Disneydiane

[dthomas]

Richyams - you are right on the money.

This other poster is completely out of line.

We are all DVC Members - we should care about DVC as a whole.

[TnRobin]

Everyone, Remember there are to be no personal attacks on individuals on these boards. Personal attacking post will be deleted.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Resort/4382/jane.gif


Disney Vacation Club Board Co-Moderator
DVC and Cruise Chat Hostess
Cruise Board List Mistress

<font size=4 color=blue font face="Comic Sans MS">Robin

[CarolAnnC]

What about the people who purchase Vero Beach points with the intent of using them for the Disney Cruise Line? Any thoughts on this? :D ;) :D

<font size=4><font color=purple><font face=BrushArt>Carol</font></font></font>
http://www.geocities.com/snugglesbarr/iluvchat.gif
but I am NOT addicted to it...

<font color=FF0066><font face=tahoma>Co-Mod - Theme Park Attractions and Strategies Board</font></font>
<font color=purple><font face=tahoma>Co Mod - Cruise Board</font></font>
<font color=FF0066><font face=tahoma>Co-Mod - DVC Board</font></font>
<font color=purple><font face=tahoma>Cruise & DVC Chat Host

[PamOKW]

CarolAnn using DVC points for anything except making DVC resort reservations at your home resort we are all equal. I think this is what DVC salespeople try to convey.

[Richyams]

I agree with that completely. I am not to sure about wether that would be a money saving proposition going forward. There are no guarantees, like your points getting you this or that forever. VB points also have the highest dues, it still could be the most beneficial purchase available from Disney because of the ilcentives.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[WebmasterCricket]

Did anyone factor age into this? As we get older, won't the more upscale quiet resorts with a high proximity to the parks become more attractive for some? The older I get the less I may tolorate the hustle and bustle of BWV therby making the higher point cost at BCV worth it. Would that make this trend better in the long run for many?

We will all get older won't we? ;)

JC

[PamOKW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We will all get older won't we? [/quote]

Hopefully. The alternative doesn't require any points at all. ;)

[dianeschlicht]

Too funny Pam! :D

Disneydiane

[WebmasterCricket]

The Disney cemitary. Now there's an idea!

JC

[dianeschlicht]

Since I am already way past the century mark, I might need that cemetary long before my 41 more years are up! :)

Disneydiane

[drusba]

A classic, PamOKW!

Disney, if it could find a way, would sell points for that...

And some of us would be lining up to get in...

And the rest would worry and post messages trying to find out if the 7 month ressie window will work.

[teri]

Are they already selling the cemetary shares onsite? Sign me up! There is a bit of space right next to Haunted Mansion that would make a splendid spot for a crematorium. ;)

Right behind WLV would be an excellent choice as well - peaceful, serene, lots of wildlife (missing from BWV) with that gorgeous lagoon nearby, and tha marina, and the best jacuzzi I have ever been in... my mourners would be very comfortable there. OKW is a close second. BWV wouldn't be quite right. ;)

http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/galc.gif
"My brain takes a vacation just to give my heart more room..."
teri@iluvdisney.com

[WebmasterCricket]

No no no...the city mice will want to be buried near the action! Put it smack-dab in the middle of MGM.
Location, location, location, the plots can be smaller but it'll be worth it!

(Could someone check my spelling on "smack-dab"?)

JC

[drusba]

That's it! Now you got it. I want to be one of those bricks that they lay to remember people by.

[teri]

OMG, where are the DVC marketing guys when you need them, we are really onto something here! :D

http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/galc.gif
"My brain takes a vacation just to give my heart more room..."
teri@iluvdisney.com

[Caskbill]

Wow, leave it to Rich to get a good thread going. But this is an important thread of discussion. The idea of 'value', OKW larger but farther out being equal to BWV smaller, but in the middle of the action is very valid. 'Value' is whatever we as individuals are willing to pay for something. Cost was also mentioned but I don't think was analyzed in full. It 'cost' Disney xxx dollars to build VWL resort. They only have so many rooms, and the seasons have to be the same across all resorts so you can calculate the total number of points the resort would have based on the rooms (studio, 1-br, 2-br) and the seasons, based on any initial point values you assign. You can then do a simple geometric regression to determine cost vs value. Let's say Disney perceived the 'value' as being equal to OKW and wanted to set the point scale the same as OKW. Doing the math then might show they would need to charge $80/point to recoup their costs. Since HH and VB are not sold out, it would be hard to justify $80/ point for new sales there. Obviously, if they left HH/VB at the old $67/point, and moved only VWL to $80/point, nobody would buy VWL but would buy HH/VB and expect to use the points elsewhere. (We've been down that road many times)

So Disney needs to keep the cost of points the same at all locations, HH/VB/VWL. This means, to get the total $$$'s they need to meet their costs, they have to require more total points so they can sell them at a lower price. So the progression might be to go 1 additional point/night higher than OKW, but that might only bring the selling point down to $79 each, still too high for HH and VB if they ever want to sell anymore of those. So you do the next step, and the next etc until you get the balance you need. When they got to the same point scale as BWV's they would probably have to stop because if it were higher, the 'value' to members of more points per night there than at OKW or BWV's might not be high enough to promote sales. So with a point scale stuck at no higher than the BWV's rate, they calculate their costs and determine the sales price has to go to $72, the largest one time jump ever. This may be the best 'value vs cost' combination that was available. Being newer than BWV's and probably more expensive to build, the VWL's costs were much higher and they had to do a balancing act.

Now the real question, which I believe is reflected in Rich's original post, is what will happen when BCV's are completed. My guess is that they can't justify charging more points per night than at BWV's as people will not perceive any greater 'value' there than at BWV. So they will have to raise the original purchase prices from the current $72/point. Of course, if HH and VB are not sold out by then, another price increase would hurt those sales even more.

It's probably a tough balancing act. But to have VWL's point structure lower than BWV's, which many of us would have probably considered a more equitable 'value', might have required a much higher point sale price than the raise they did have, and that would hurt sales at VWL, HH and VB combined.

Let's just hope they're watching their 'costs' on BCV's and this doesn't get out of hand where their 'costs' start to far exceed the 'value' the members 'personally' receive.

Caskbill

[dvc_john]

If HH and VB are not sold out by the time BCV comes on-line, they could simply come up with special MB programs like the one currently at VB to effectively lower the price at those resorts, and pretty much charge whatever they needed to (wanted to) for a point at BCV.

[MN_DizNut]

Caskbill:

Exactly my point. Value is NEVER a measure made in absolute terms, but rather a very subjective concept. If I can be at my favorite resort, away from the rush, not having to walk everywhere I want to go, just steps from my car, I don't care is the points cost twice as much, because at the end of the day (for me) they are by far the better VALUE!!

As to the cemetary sub=thread, I can't wait. I'm dying to get in on that deal! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Jon

[Bennet]

teri, DIS Veteran wrote:
-------------------------
Are they already selling the cemetary shares onsite? ...Right behind WLV would be an excellent choice as well - peaceful, serene, ..OKW is a close second.
-------------------------

teri, are you saying WLV is dead and OKW is almost dead? Flame On - OKW is every bit as dead if not more so and Rich is looking for a Grand Villa (if the point scale isn’t too different than OKWs.)

You guys are Killing me with this DBC (Disney Burial Club) stuff.

I expect Disney will undertake it soon.

The Vero guides will make a killing.

Now we’ll never need lay to rest the towel discussions! :D

<A HREF="http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/BuzzLightyearSpin.htm" TARGET=_blank><IMG src="http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/images/disney1.jpg" width="100" height="56" >
</A>
</P>
**UPDATED AGAIN! 2/10/01** MORE Disney silliness: Buzz's Spin, Parks, <font size="4"> Classic Toy Story Parade (http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/classic_toy_story.htm)</font> and
the Unfortunate Footwear of Walt Disney World: http://members.home.net/dunlapsdisney/

[teri]

Gosh, I almost forgot about Vero! Now that would be a lovely gravesite! As long as it isn't on the other side of the road, of course.

I just got back from 4 nights in a studio at heavenly OKW. I spent a few evenings soaking in the divine spa at the WLV as well. Not dead, oh no. Everlasting peace!! My idea of heaven on Earth! :D

http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/galc.gif
"My brain takes a vacation just to give my heart more room..."
teri@iluvdisney.com

[dmadman43]

Okay, thanks Rich for your 'attempt' at answering my apparently annoying and, to you, somewhat stupid question. (Having now been on the receiving end, I can certainly see where people misinterpret your tone with your posts. I'm sure your intentions are, nonetheless, sincere) Really no need to get exasperated and annoyed. However, wading through all that, I was finally able to see your point.

But, I think my thanks goes more to LisaF for her consise, cogent, and insightful response. It was she that made me really understand your argument, to which, I agree, is cause for concern. Although being a new owner, my immediate reaction is...(yawn).

So, Rich, my intent was not to annoy you with my question, I really was obviously too dumb to understand it, and too lazy to sift through the plethora of posts to get the point. Please accept my apologies for randomizing you. Nevertheless, thanks for enlightening me, and keep up the good work with keeping DVC honest. It is appreciated.

[This message was edited by dmadman43 on 02-17-01 at 02:22 PM.]

[drusba]

I changed my mind if I get into that Disney Burial Club, I want to be in the Haunted Mansion graveyard. The headstone would read:

Here lies drusba
a DVC member
His only regret
Is that he didn't get
To that last DVC December.?

[Patpat15]

Your posts always seem to have a negative ring to them. You contradict yourself, and seem to have a chip on your shoulder about DVC. If you dislike DVC so much, sell it. Nobody makes people buy this timeshare. Many of us realize the situation is not perfect, that anything owned or controlled by Disney is money making based. Knowing that, many of us bought in because we love the whole DIS aura, with the less than perfect intent. I really think that there is a strong possibility that you spent more time evaluating the point structure and pricing between the DVC resorts, than the DVC execs do. Maybe it really isn't as complicated as you make it all in your original post. I'm a teacher and had to read it three times to understand what your poll was about.undefined

[Richyams]

I am happy that most seemed to have seen my point and agree with me.

Contradict myself? Please give examples...

I think DVC is the greatest thing in the world. I say that all the time. I do have a very serious problem with DVC sales using lies and fraud and this new trend towrds delivering less value per point spent, but what other aspects of DVC do you see me railing against?

I think that you are probably one of very few who think I hate DVC...

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[nydizfan]

I agree 100 percent dvc is the best thing . but some people just dont get your angle. its not the end of the world . its just they are not as adamant as you about the issues . keep it up . dave

offsite '71 contemporary '72 golf resort '76 village resorts '93 okw '94 okw '95 contemporary '96 okw '97(got married) okw '97 late okw '99 okw '00

[tiggersnj]

You guys are killing me, I can't stop laughing.

[reneesam]

I find this to be all very interesting. I agree entirely...I personally feel that WVL and subsequent resorts built as add-ons to existing resorts are just that, the half-sister in the shadows, the also-ran, not the prime time headliner. OKW is a condominium resort, and was planned and executed with that in mind. BWV has equally well planned hotel and condo accomadations designed as a coherent unit which is a destination in and of itself. Parking-lot condos don't capture that...they are afterthoughts.
I think Drusba's last post (the one before she started writing her own gravestone poetry)summed it up best.
Renee

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> so when some buy at BCV because Disney convinced them that resales were silly [/quote]

I know about your crusade against guides selling VB points and telling buyers that they will have no problems staying at WDW. I agree that this is less than honest. Please give some evidence that Disney is convincing people that resales are silly...

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[teenk]

that Rich gets critiqued for failing to clearly convey his "DVC" theory! Guess we're just fortunate that he chose something other than writing as a career!!!

Just had to add my two cents here :)
Lisa (DW)

[baileybrad]

The most consistent point that Richyams has always made on these boards in the past is buy where you plan to stay, that, and he stays mostly in Grand Villas at OKW.

SO that being said what is your beef? If you have a 11 month booking window at your dear home resorts that you love so very much then who cares what DVC charges for the nightly point rates at their future resorts. We bought inflation protection for our current home resorts and for that point in time and nothing more. What Disney is doing is consistent with what any business would do in maximizing its profits. Seems to me that the OKW folks are now in the same spot that some of you, Richyams most recently, are always harping on, that the HH and VB folks are so screwed when it comes to visiting/exchanging into the WDW DVC resorts. I know some people have no interest in staying any place but their home resorts and the change in the point stuctures at the new resorts won't affect a thing for those folks.

A somewhat important issue I have with all of this conjecture is the broad assumptions that are made. Please remember that the many thousands of DVC members are so different. We have no interest in any further stays at Boardwalk or the future BC DVC resort. This is not a shot at BW or BC, it is one preference. OKW is fine, not very Disney- like but it is a great place for us. We just stayed at the VWLs and plan to go back to WDW in late October and, if available, decide between OKW and VWL. And as shocking as some would believe, we will take the VWL over OKW if available. Higher points or not it is a decision that only, us, the individual DVC owner gets to make at this point in time.

And one other thing, we are part of "the red-headed stepchildren" who have HH as our home resort. So I suppose that we had better enjoy one of our few remaining WDW visits at a DVC resort because I am sure our time has run out. This was going to happen when the Boardwalk property was built, also....guess what it has not happened.

There was never any guarantee how many future DVC resorts would actually get built. So how can folks have a valid argument about how the DVC handled the future properties. It seems that if you really want a guranteed stay at any of these newer or soon to be on-line resorts, buy the points from Disney or in OKW/BW's cases through resales. The only thing that we presently have to hang our hats on is the 4 month home resort booking advantage. After that it's everyone for themselves which is what we all knew when we joined. If the DVC ever changes the booking windows or for that matter anything else then the conjecture that crept into this thread of folks buying at a less desireable or more expensive resort while planning to stay at a more desireable location might hold water. I still think that there are so many members with so many diverse ideas of what is or is not more desireable that the small percentage of total members responding to this poll is by no means the final word on anything. Especially when a small group continues to post (which is their right to do so) essentially the same points over in order to defend their various positions. (Again not a shot but a reality when a thread is going back and forth.) I might do the same if someone attempts to distort my very long opinion.

We have stayed at OKW 6 times, BW 2 times (with my brother's family), HH 4 times, and VWL just 7 days ago. We have never stayed at VB and don't have any plans to...we beach vacation in Daytona. That being said, we enjoyed VWL probably more than any place we have ever stayed...higher point cost or not. This has nothing to do with anything except to point out that we have experienced all of the resorts that are being debated as to the rising costs associated with their stays.

[This message was edited by baileybrad on 02-18-01 at 10:52 AM.]

[Dean]

I think one VERY important point in dealing with DVC is often overlooked by the members. I own at OKW and not at BW, etc and that is what is guaranteed to me within the rules that apply. DVC has included me and all of the members at the various resorts in the "Disney Vacation Club" which has certain (many) priviledges. Although I think it's unlikely that things will change much, there is no guarantee that those priviledges will continue. Anytime one of us uses our points to stay at a sister resort, we have performed an exchange into that resort and are guests of the members there. Just because it's easy, we can use our points directly and the management is the same does not change the facts. It's really no different than being a Marriott member and doing an internal exchange for another Marriott resort.

Dean

[jade1]

Someone was asking about when new resorts come on line if they were "discussed" in a not so positive light-kind of like SSR threads on occassion. Kind of interesting.

[joepoe]

Someone was asking about when new resorts come on line if they were "discussed" in a not so positive light-kind of like SSR threads on occassion. Kind of interesting.

Rest in Peace Richyams and may all your hallways be short ones.

[keys2kingdom]

Wow, the old "no one will stay at VWL and BCV because they cost more points" theory never came to pass did it!! This should make the SSR owners feel good, bashing seems to be a right of passage. Don't worry Rich, I'll spend more points to stay at BCV, God bless ya!

[sajetto]

Wow, I can't believe folks thought no one would stay at BCV or VWL or that another thread started by Rich has appeared again.

[tomandrobin]

Maybe we should start the CRV bashing thread now and get it out of the way! That way we could just enjoy it when it starts! :wave2:

[DVC Sadie]

Maybe we should start the CRV bashing thread now and get it out of the way! That way we could just enjoy it when it starts! :wave2:
No bashing from me. I am waiting to snap up CRV as soon as they beome available. Just have to figure out how many points I want. :thumbsup2 :teeth:

[cobbler]

Its curious though. I wonder how many SSR owners will fall into the trap of bashing a new and upcoming resort for the same (basically the bashing has been similar) reasons as SSR was bashed.

It does make an interesting read.

[tomandrobin]

I don't own yet, but will soon. But I only would be upset if a new resort was exclusive to a different DVC membership that required an addition fee for older DVC resorts to use.

I know that there is specualtion that SSR sales are not well. However, if you read the financial report for 2005 and the 4th quarter for 2005, it notes that profits are doing well for DVC as a whole.

From my research, there could be two or three additional DVC resorts at WDW. Maybe two or three external to WDW. I am guessing that DVC in California may happen. Which would lead to a second DVC out west, external to the resort. And if all they expired in 2054, it would create a second level of ownership. That would help to protect the prices and value of the newer resorts from the older resorts as they peak in 10 or 15 years.

[CRSNDSNY]

I always like seeing one of Richyams threads pop back up. :goodvibes