No availability to DVC members at my home resort

[Nickymouse]

I have tried unsuccessfully for a month to get a room at BWV (my home resort) for this November. Member Services tells me that they are completely booked. I've been put on a waiting list. Then, 2 friends of mine, neither of whom are DVC members,both inform me that they are staying at BWV that same week and had no trouble getting a ressie. Out of curiosity, I called reservations and sure enough, I could get any room I wanted. I find it hard to believe that everyone is able to stay at BWV except for an actual BWV owner! The most humiliating part is that we've been telling these 2 families how wonderful DVC is and now they're laughing at us because we can't even get a room in our own resort.

[Richyams]

How far did you miss the 11 month window by?

There are points used for cruises, concierge collection stays, world of Disney hotels, all of these points are used by MS to recoup the costs of the stay used by the member....what I don't know about, is if the people that can stay, are they actually buying rooms secured with BWV points? VB points? HH points? OKW points?

Depending on the answer to that last question, there could be something to not be happy about.

The low point seasons, as do most seasons, really require the use of the 11 month window.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Peter_noPan]

I already haev my ressies for November. I was on the phone 11 months in advance every day to get my whole trip.

This is a very popular time to go, so you need tp make your plans early.

My suggestion is to book a room at a hotel and keep trying. Even within 30 days room may open up. Don't give up.

We did this for this past November and got the rooms we were looking for at OKW. Call ever day from 45 days out.

[Nickymouse]

I missed the 11 month window by 2 months. I started calling about 9 months out. The people that did get in are not using points at all. They are paying customers who simply called central reservations and got exactly what they wanted. I realize now that it was a mistake not to call at 11 months out, but it's killing me that anybody can call up and get that week except a DVC BWV owner.

[BobBrazeal]

The reservations that these other people were able to get at BW, were these actually reservations for rooms in the Villas section of BW or were they rooms in the hotel section?

[nuthut]

Disney's cash reservations are totaly separate inventory than that belonging to the DVC members.

[Nickymouse]

The people that obtained a reservation are staying in the Villas, not the hotel. One in a 1 BR and the other in a 2 BR. While I realize that a certain %age of rooms are available to paying customers, I always assumed it was a very small %age and that DVC hotels were intended to be primarily occupied by DVC members.

[Richyams]

The percentage is small, but when you add the points used for Cruise lines trips, Concierge collection stays, World Of Disney hotel stays...you get a lot more rooms available through MS.

I do have a serious question about this. Do they use all the points that are deposited at BWV so that they get more money for them?? Right now, those are the most expensive DVC rooms, it seems that it would benefit Disney to use a VB owners points that took a cruise to rent a room at BWV...if that kind of thing is happening, I think it is cause for great concern.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Peggy Sue]

Isn't there also a percentage of each DVC resort that does not belong to DVC and is available for rent through CRO? I would imagine 1 and 2 bedrooms would still be available through CRO only because their cash price is quite a bit more than the standard BW rooms.

Have a wonderful day!

[PamOKW]

Rich I'm not positive but I think the points do have to stay with their home resort.

Nickymouse I feel your pain. Quite a few years ago I couldn't get either a point or member discount at Vero but got an offer in the mail for a special rate (I had paid cash for friends earlier that year) with no problem getting a reservation. It's very frustrating and your problem is compounded by having to "save face" in front of your friends.

[BobBrazeal]

I'm quite new to DVC. Actually, I haven't even closed yet.

How often does something like this happen? Hearing something like this while in the process of a DVC purchase is obviously very disconcerting.

[WebmasterDoc]

I think that the points recouped from cruises, etc are still subject to home reservation priority. It would appear that these reservations are from BWV members reserving the cruise (or other non-DVC reservation) and then the points transferred to CRO were used to reserve the Nov dates- all within the normal reservation priority. In a sense the rooms are still being "used" by home resort owners. It is disconcerting that members are unable to get the same rooms, but the program does allow for that. Keep trying- those dates may still open up as some members release the rooms they won't actually use or find they can't rent them on ebay! ;)

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[Richyams]

bbrazeal, It never ever happens if you make use of the 11 month window. That is why it is so important to buy where you plan to vacation most.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[spiceycat]

sorry but for thankgiving week at BWV it does happen fast - if you want this week call after Christmas - I am expecting it (if this keeps up) to go on the special list (hopefully with the same points it has now) - but this is a very popular week. I guess because alot of schools have 3 days off now for it.

[Nickymouse]

I'm not trying to book Thanksgiving Week. We are trying to get the week of the 4th. Still no luck. But BWV continues to be wide open for paying guests.

[BobH]

I have read that OKW reserves about 4% of rooms for cash paying customers. Does anyone know what the percentage is for Boardwalk. I certainly hope DVC is not playing all sides against the middle by
denying members a room!

[Richyams]

It is the same 4%, but you have to add all the points spent on cruises, COncierge collection stays, and World of Disney stays....it would be interesting to know what percentage that totals to.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Nickymouse]

MS told me that they reserve 3% for non members. I find it very fishy that anyone else in the world can get a room in this mere 3% but a BWV owner can't get a room in the other 97%.

[pax_65]

My home resort is OKW and I've never had a problem like this. Granted we usually take advantage of the 11 month window but even when we don't we've always gotten the reservations we wanted (although I wouldn't try to get a Grand Villa on short notice).

Is this problem worse at Boardwalk (and if so why) or is it a problem across DVC?

Jon

[Richyams]

You need to remember, all the points used for everything else are available through CRO.

I would be interested to know what that percentage is and just what points are used and where they are used.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Nickymouse]

To be honest, this is the 1st year I've ever encountered a problem like this. I've booked a little earlier in the past, but I'm stll 9 months from the time I want to go. I know that CRO has the available points to give for those members who have chosen to use their points elsewhere that week, but I can't believe that such a large %age of BWV owners have chosen that particular week to vacation. I too would be curious to see what these %ages actually add up to.

[eva]

I own at OKW so maybe I shouldn't be as concerned but why is BWV always full even before the 7-month window? I know that it is a smaller resort than OKW but they should also have fewer members and points sold there. It really seems strange to me. I guess that members at OKW must be saving their points for a real blow out next year. It really concerns me to hear that people are reserving rooms quite readily when a member can't get in at all. I think that this might happen occassionally but it shouldn't happen often. I'm gald that a number of you clarified the concern of which resort the points are allocated from when using a trade. I was worried when I first thought about it too

[TampaDisneyFreaks]

This is very scary! Rich states that pts used for exchanges, etc. are made "available" for use thru CRO. Why should these pts/rooms be made available to the general public before the rest of BWV owners, let alone the rest of DVC owners at other resorts? These pts/rooms should not be made vailable to CRO until at least the 7 month mark. Now it appears even the 4 month priorty that owners of the home resort get are not able to get priorty. Now the priorty is supposed over DVC members at other resorts, but the general public now appears to get priorty over home resort owners unless we call exactly at the 11 month mark. That is outrageous. We paid to own at that resort and to get a priorty there over EVERYONE, and it appears that the general public gets a better shot at rooms (even though they are paying way more than we are per night) than we do. So those of us who choose to stay at our home resort rather than exchange are getting penalized b/c enough other owners chose to exchange and those rooms are no longer available to us as dues paying members, but the non-dues paying general public can gobble those rooms up giving us no chance at the rooms, even before the 7 month window. That then nullifies the 11 month home resort priorty, because thru exchanges, the general public is given priorty over DVC members.

[Richyams]

I have a possible theory. It does place a nefarious motive on Disney's part, so if you don't like things like that, read no further!!!!

All the points used for cruises and everything from all the resorts would get the highest return if they were used at BWV, right? So, Disney reserves all the rooms they can with the BWV points they get at the eleven month window. Then the mornings that the seven month window opens, all the VB, HH and OKW points that were used for other things are ALL used to reserve BWV rooms. Disney knows what they will be able to rent for cash, and reserves thos rooms at those times. They basically lock up the seven month window and also use the eleven month windo to its greatest advantage.....remember, they answer the phones, so they can take inventory before it ever actually is available for reservation...

I only hope that they respect the 7-11 month windows, they should, but if they are makeing the reservations the morning, before the first phone rings, the morning that the seven month window opens up, are they really respecting the booking windows????

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Nickymouse]

I couldn't agree with you more, TampaDisneyFreak!
I can't help but feel used since I pay to maintain a property that I can't even stay in. MS has suggested that I book a room at OKW when my 7 month window opens up, but I bought at BWV for a reason:Because I wan't to be able to have priority over others when I make my reservations. I feel that Disney is making a huge mistake when the general public has priority over a DVC member.

[WebmasterDoc]

The "general public" is not getting any preference over members here. The BWV members have done so by using their points elsewhere. DVC MUST recoup the expense for these other reservations by using the corresponding points before they expire. The points themselves have already been used bu BWV members. In one sense the available reservations are being filled by members- who have chosen to "rent" those reservations to others.
The same situation exists at all DVC resorts- it has happened at OKW for years. There are many rooms available at OKW through CRO- for the same reason.
I think it's a little cynical to suggest that DVC is doing something wrong, as has been suggested in other posts. While I have no information from DVC explaining exactly how cash reservations are handled, I am still confident that they are processed using the guidelines set forth in our documents.
With the size of BWV (under 300 rooms) even a 10% utilization of member-non-DVC reservations (added to the 4% still owned by DVD) - allows for about 40 rooms available to non-members on a cash basis- right now.
Keep in mind also that with the higher point cost for other WDW resorts and the cruise- those member activities can really open up a large number of rooms for the same # of points.
Early Nov thru Dec- has really become a popular time to travel to WDW- due to the weather, lower point costs, lower room costs and many marketing factors promoted by WDW in general. It is not surprising that rooms at popular resorts are challenging to reserve.

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[doubletroublemom]

Ditto! We're in the process of buying a resale at BWV because we wanted to have the best shot at getting a room there. My DH is now VERY concerned and is wondering if we should be buying into the club at all! How far in advance can cash ressies be made at the DVC properties? We won't be closing on our resale until the end of the month. Looks like we may be totally out of luck for the BWV around Thanksgiving or Christmas. In light of this, the fact that my DVC sales guide tried telling me that home resort doesn't matter and that there are only a couple trouble weeks, really infuriates me!

[Nickymouse]

Doubletroublemom, I don't know how far out they will let cash customers book, but I can tell you that both of my friends booked this past month for a November Vacation.
And Doc, I realize that some rooms are available to the general public. I just find it hard to believe that so many BWV owners have chosen this particular week to vacation. Since only BWV owners can book this far out, this resort isn't being filled up by those who own at any of the other resorts. I just feel that DVC isn't giving us our fair %age of rooms.

[WebmasterDoc]

I don't think they usually will reserve cash ressies until 6 months in advance. I also don't think they "reserve" a block of rooms at any DVC resort just for cash ressies. When a member "trades in" points for other locations, the points rae then made available as the CRO reservation requests come in. In this case, you are reporting these reservations being allowed 9 months ahead- but it is entirely possible that the cash request came in and those points would otherwise expire in Nov and thus must be used.
DVC must be allowed to use those points- as they do contribute significantly to the dues structure of the resort owners. I see no reason to assume that BWV members are NOT using their points for a cruise during that same time period- thus freeing up a large number of points at the resort.

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[dianeschlicht]

Good clear explanation Doc. I also think that perhaps that 4% that CRO has access to that is not declared into the condominium might seem highly available because not as many people attempt to get a cash reservation through CRO for these more roomy but also very expensive properties. It may just seem like there is a lot of availability.

Disneydiane

[jctwizzer]

Instead of generating all these wild guesses and whining, why don't you go to the other end of the horse and ask; ie., call DVC and see what they have to say. :eek:

[tiggersnj]

The first 2 weeks in November are very popular in the NJ area. The schools are closed for the teacher's convention and parents tend to take the kids out of school extra days ( I know I did) also Veterans' Day falls on the 11th giving Monday the 12th off. The week of the 4th is when all the extra days come into play. We always book the 11th month window. Keep trying, I would be upset if it happened to me.

[PamOKW]

Another possible lightbulb moment on why availability at BWV is tight and cash ressies are available....I believe we've heard that the last year or two are when BWV sales kicked into high gear. Lots of people took advantage of MB to make their purchase. Well, all those points people "sold back" to DVC are available for them to rent. This is in addition to points from various trades.

[Richyams]

Pam is very correct there, that is a HUGE source of points that Disney needs to get vlue for....what about all them MB VB points? Where do they use them? Are they used at the seven month window at BWV to get more money for them? I suspect Doc is correct about releasing rooms to CRO at 6 months, but I believe that is only the 4%, I think that the other points are in a different kettle and may be used as I described earlier....this is a question for DVC.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[bkalm46]

Was reading about your situation. I tried to book thru CRO for a one bedroom at BWV and as I was not a member, was told I couldn't book until 3-4 months out from my reservation date. Started looking for points then and after finding them, was told they were booked up. This was at about the 10 1/2 month mark. It seems to me members should have more priority than they're getting. Just my 2 cents.
Wanda

[Halle]

I guess we were lucky we're owners at OKW and decided to stay at the BW. I booked a 1 bedroom preferred view for mid March in Nov..

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It seems to me members should have more priority than they're getting. [/quote]

Folks seem to assume that because the rooms are booked, it must be due to non-members. It's possible that even at the nine month mark, other members have already booked the rooms. Add the current popularity of the season with all those MB points and I think you have your answer. Nothing sinister, underhanded, illegal or even unfair...

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[Crissup]

I think one of the main reasons the BWV is booking up so much faster than OKW right now, is because it's still relatively new. The OKW owners have had almost 10 years to enjoy their resort and are starting to branch out and enjoy the other ammenities their memberships offer. Many BWV owners are still brand new to the system and want to use their points at their resort.

This only goes to prove that all of us who constantly argued that it *does* matter which resort you buy at, and that you *should* buy at the resort you intend to stay at most, were correct. I didn't really figure things would get this bad though for another 5 years yet.

John M. Crissup
http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/crissup/comp14.gif
crissup@disneyfan.com
Crissup's Web Site (http://www.crissup.org/)

[WebmasterDoc]

The Annual meeting has frequently been used as an explanation for heavy reservations at DVC resorts. The BWV meeting this year had fewer than 100 members in attendance- and many of those were local members who were NOT staying onsite. Several others, like myself, were staying at OKW- NOT the BWV.

The first week in Dec has been heavily promoted by WDW and has many special programs designed to attract guests. (MVMCP, special music, etc.) Combining these features with the lower point cost would probably be a more significant explanation for the high resort occupancy during this time.

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[Bill K]

For the past 2 years I have been able to stay at the BWV in November using of course the 11 month window. Never had a problem on getting what I needed.

http://www.disneyinfo.com/sites/billk/dvc.gif

[/img]
The Kosturko's (http://www.disneyinfo.com/sites/billk)

[Lisa F]

That's a great theory about why BWV is so hard to get into nowadays except with the 11 month window... I hope you're right that it's all of the MB buybacks, because then things should calm down a little bit.

I'm going to throw my own theory into the mix as well... When we were holding a 10 night reservation in a 2br standard for this past january, we decided to add a studio onto it about 6 months out. We had to go on the waiting list and we took nights as they became available, but at some point I decided to try to make a backup cash reservation through CRO.

I requested a standard view so we wouldn't have to move, and I was VERY surprised to hear that for cash reservations they no longer have a separate price schedule based on view... it was the same price for any studio in the place.

So, Disney has all of these points that they have bought back from the large rush of people to buy BWV before the price increase, and then before it sells out. Since standard view rooms and preferred view rooms rent at the same price, perhaps Disney is doing what we all want to do... getting a better value for their points by using standard rooms! Maybe standard views won't be quite so impossible to book unless you call day by day once Disney recoups on all of the MB points they are holding.

I love theorizing about what makes Disney tick. If there IS someone monitoring these boards, I bet whoever they are gets a huge chuckle out of it all.

Lisa

"You employ stone, wood, and concrete, and with these materials you build house and palaces. That is construction. Ingenuity is at work. But suddenly, you touch my heart, you do me good. I am happy and I say 'This is beautiful.' That is architecture. Art enters in."
-Le Corbusier

[This message was edited by Lisa F on 02-18-01 at 09:31 AM.]

[Nickymouse]

Could someone explain MB to me. I think it stands for Magical Beginnings, which is a program that I don't know too much about. I'm guessing that new buyers were allowed to trade back their 1st year of points in lieu of payment. Did this program happen last fall? I'm just trying to figure out how it affects this fall. If you did MB last Nov., do they sell the available rooms 1 year from when you made the trade?

[Synonymous]

I hope that no one considering joining DVC reads this discussion and decides not to do it. The problem described by this member is pretty unusual. Most people report having no trouble getting the reservations they want. You just have to plan ahead. If you don't get what you want at first, many people report having success with the waiting list.

DVC doesn't guarantee you anything. It's like anything else- if you want a specific location at a popular time, you have to plan ahead. The smug friends of this member are, undoubtedly, paying through the nose (and various other orifices) for this room. The member should get on the waiting list, book a back-up room at OKW or WLV, and calculate what the same room is costing him. When he shows THAT figure to his friends, they won't be so smug anymore.

To

[ckr]

Perhaps, we members are planners and budget out our points far in advance of cash paying WDW visitors.

Illustration: There are 100 rooms for points ressie and 10 rooms for cash ressies. At 10 months out, all the points rooms are booked (with not a penny out of pocket) by the ever-planning (and got no money left after paying for DVC...) points paying members. At the same time (10 months out), only 5 of the cash rooms are booked by WDW fans willing to put down a hefty deposit on some very expensive rooms. This could give the impression that there were more rooms for cash than for points, when the truth is that there were fewer rooms LEFTOVER for points (actually none) than for cash.

Just a theory... (But I think the MB one also is part of the scenario....)

[Mickey Moose]

Synonymous, thanks for the reassuring words. DW and I are thinking of joining. This thread is giving me the hebee jeebies!!

[JAH]

Has anyone considered that when DVC lowered the minimum contract to 150 points that the actual # of members for boardwalk/WLV as compared to the # of rooms might be skewed.
If many more OKW owners bought the minimum then 230 or above each member has a higher % of the total.
By effectively enabling more members , if they all decided to vacation at the same time there would be a big problem.( Granted if every OKW member wanted to go the same time it would be impossible also.) But I do feel that the 150 minimum is too low and has considerably affected this problem.

[Synonymous]

Mickey Moose- I think you'll find that people here, who are intimately familiar with DVC, can be very critical of small things. If you ask any of us, I think we'd be almost unanimous in saying we are happy we joined.

Good luck- if you join you won't regret it.

Tom

[Richyams]

Watch out JAH, I agree with you completely, but every time I say that, I am accused of elitism.

I agree, the small packages force many of the owners of those packages to use only the lowest point times, to use only studios and to avoid weekends like the plague. I believe Disney did us all a diservice in the avarice to sell more points.

Regardless of the attacks, Disney did do us all a diservice by continually lowering the minimum buy in.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[Figaro30]

I don't like this idea. I just joined DVC and already my one complaint is that they shouldn't allow paying customers into the DVC resorts. It's just not fair. They should only be for DVC members. I was able to get my OKW 11 months reservation in November...but I wanted to try to switch to BWVs at my 7 month mark. Now it seems like I won't be able to do that. However If I was a person who wished to pay cash I would be able to get a room. What was the point again to buying into DVC????? If somebody knows this answer do me a favor and let ME IN ON IT??

http://lisasclipart.bizland.com/images/figaro1.jpg
'81 - Cont.
'88 - Disneyland
'89 - Maingate East
'91 - CBR
'94 - CBR
'95 - CBR
'98 - BC
'00 - WL
'01 - OKW

[Lesley]

From the post above:
"I just joined DVC and already my one complaint is that they shouldn't allow paying customers into the DVC resorts. It's just not fair. They should only be for DVC members."

Well, I hate to say this but the fact that a certain percentage of rooms is held aside for cash reservations is pretty clearly stated in the paperwork....that should be read *before* joining DVC. It's perfectly fair considering that you signed papers agreeing to the terms of the contract and the general set up of DVC.

The situation brought up at the beginning of this thread seems to be one that would be very rare, considering how often I've heard those who aren't DVC members complain that there is no cash availability at DVC resorts, especially BWV.

I also would not doubt the MB theory. I know 81 of my points were out there to be used by this March. Considering the flurry of BWV purchases that seemed to happen as soon as it became clear the resort was getting very close to selling out, there could be many MB points out there being changed into cash availability.

I have yet to make my first DVC ressies, but I must say I'm not in the least bit worried. I joined DVC knowing that it would be most advantageous to make my ressies at the 11 month mark and that is what I plan to do. I bought where I will be happy staying. If I decide I'd like to give another DVC property a try I will attempt to use the 7 month window and if doesn't work out...well, I will still have BWV.


Lesley


1979 Contemporary
1992 Off-site
1994 Carribean Beach
1999 Fort Wilderness and Coronado Springs
2000 Polynesian and Old Key West
2002 Boardwalk Villas

[PamOKW]

Figaro I know it's maddening to hear someone can make a cash reservation when there are no rooms available for points. But, you have to remember that, beyond the rooms from the 4% DVC maintains, the rooms were made available by DVC owners trading their points either in exchanges or through Magical Beginnings. Theoretically, if the DVC member wasn't off somewhere else they would have been occupying the room and it wouldn't be available anyway.

[HorizonsFan]

Rich,

I am not accusing you of elitism but would you please provide evidence that the 150 pt. owners are avoiding more weekends than other owners?
We (just me and the wife) always stay in a studio and if the trip is long enough we will stay over the weekend. 150 pts. works great for us but would not for a family of 5 who must stay in a 2 bedroom. Even if that family had 300 pts., they still may feel the need to be conservative because their points may not go as far as my 150!
Number in party, choice of season and choice of accomodation have just as much bearing on a member's conservation of points as the number of points that the member owns.
Please stop making unproven generalizations.

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[brittsmamabwv]

We bought 210 pts at BWV last year. It is only me, DH and DD who is not quite yet 3 yrs old, and our immediately family will not be exapanding. When we discusssed buying into DVC, we figured most of our vacations would be spent in studios, INCLUDING WEEKENDS to give us more vacation availability. I will say, we signed preliminary paperwork in April and was able to book a one bdrm at our home for first full week of September. Originally I could not get a standard view and could only book a preferred view for 200 pts. I put name on waiting list for std. view and low and behold, about 5 weeks later rec'd a phone call saying i could have std. view. When we checked into BWV, we were upgraded to a beautiful preferred view at only 163 pts. Quite a nice surprise!! ;)

When you wish upon a star...DVC will take you far...anything your heart desires....will come your way

[Figaro30]

I'm not stupid...I knew this before I signed my papers!!! I just didn't think it would interfer with my reservations. And as far as right now that's the way it looks to me.

Unless maybe you are planning on supplying me with a 1 bedroom and 1 studio at BWV for the nights of Nov 23 - Dec. 1...then hey...thanks a bunch.

http://lisasclipart.bizland.com/images/figaro1.jpg
'81 - Cont.
'88 - Disneyland
'89 - Maingate East
'91 - CBR
'94 - CBR
'95 - CBR
'98 - BC
'00 - WL
'01 - OKW

[Richyams]

Weekends do have the lowest occupancy.

Other then GVs at OKW and BWV, studios do go the fastest.

In recent years, and the 150 point buy in is recent, the lowest point periods have also been filled the fastest.

Of course its not a hard and fast rule, and general point conservation has some to do, but while I can't prove that the small packages are the cause, in my very humble opinion, they are the direct cause.

Also, in my humble opinion, Disney has done us all a diservice by allowing their desire to sell points, their avarice, to allow them to lower the minimum to 150.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[jennybobenny]

Well, Figaro, after reading this entire thread I'd have to say your chances of switching over to BWV for those dates are slim and none. And Slim just left town. ;)
At least you still have your OKW reservations.

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<font face="Class Garmnd BT"><font color="ff69b4"><big>Jennybºoº benny</big></font>
<font color="9400d3">~~DVC Member~~
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[PamOKW]

Figaro -- We haven't reached the 7 month mark yet so no one really knows what the story will be. It's good that you have a back up. Don't worry, call at the 7 month mark and don't hesitate to get on a wait list.

If you remember, come back here and tell us how it all turned out. Hopefully, it'll be a success story! ;)

[Figaro30]

you got that right jennybobenny...LOL

I'll certainly keep trying...it's just frustrating to think that I'll never end up any place else except OKW. I really hope that doesn't happen.

http://lisasclipart.bizland.com/images/figaro1.jpg
'81 - Cont.
'88 - Disneyland
'89 - Maingate East
'91 - CBR
'94 - CBR
'95 - CBR
'98 - BC
'00 - WL
'01 - OKW

[TnRobin]

Figaro,

I would definitely try again at the 7 month mark. Just as you have made "back up" ressies, members at BWV could have done the same in hopes to get OKW or VWL. (Guilty of booking BWV at 11 mo only to change at 7 mo to OKW)

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<font size=4 color=blue font face="Comic Sans MS">Robin

[LauraS]

I don't think it has anything at all to do with being elite either. It makes perfect sense that the majority of people with 150 pt. contracts are going to do their best to stretch their points as far as they can. If they decide that they can't stretch them enough, then they'll buy an add-on I suppose. However, I'm betting that there are lots of 150 point contracts out there. Since most (all?) of those 150 point contracts were sold at BWV, well it certainly helps explain why the low point months are going so quickly. So quickly that by the 9 month window the resort is full.

It seems as though Disney has found that the magic buy-in number is around $10,500 or so. What was the original amount you had to buy at OKW way back when? Around 210 points right? The original price per point was around $50 right. That's $10,500. Now it's 150 buy-in at $72 a point. That's $10,800. The only problem is that for that $10,800 you're getting over 40% less points *and* Disney has raised the points per night ratio.

So while that 210 original contract at OKW was great and sold by Disney as the perfect amount to start with, well now they're saying the same thing about that 150 points and it's not really true. With the 150 point contract you have to be more point conscious with respect to when you visit and what type of accommodation you choose. Way more point conscious than the person who bought that 210 at OKW. Not only because you have less points, but if you choose your home resort it's going to cost you more points per night.

Disney wanted to keep raising the price per point and then they hit resistance because the original buy-in was too much for lots of people, and so they lowered the buy-in number without really thinking about the consequences to the rest of us. This is what is happening at BWV. It's manageable provided you use your 11 month window to book those low point periods, but I think it's tough to deny that the situation at BWV hasn't gotten considerably tighter over the past year. More members with less points is most certainly a factor.

Let's just hope that they don't lower the 150 point contract any lower because it'll make matters even worse at any new resort. Things are pretty tough right now at BWV with respect to booking a last minute trip. And if they lower the initial buy-in point number and raise the points per night even higher than VWL, it'll be a nightmarish situation.

Laura

[Dean]

I'm sorry you are feeling left out with the facts of how the system works. I'd like to remind you that there are "points" that either or not owned by DVC or are given up by members. These points are not, should not and cannot be available for member to use. DVC is very consciencous in not using these points to reserve high time, they could you know. It is certainly not reasonable to expect the rooms not to be rented for cash. That is income that in many instances is appropriately going to the general budget and controls our fees.

Another point of interest is that you bought into OKW and have been added to the DVC with the rules that apply. Other than the club system which is not contractual, we OKW owners have no claim on BW or any other resort we don't own. I realialize that you likely assumed this was automatic but the reality is that the club could in theory evaporate tomorrow and you would just have OKW and any exchange system that was made available to OKW members. There are no guarantees made about the 7 month window or getting into other resorts and I think you can expect this problem to continue or even worsen. Remember that OKW is larger (more rooms and more points), older and more out of the way; to me that says that th bottlenecks will be the BW, WLV, BCV. Likely eventually, WLV and BCV will be the difficults ones for the same reasons.

It appears that you knew and understood this info but assumed it wouldn't affect you and now that you see it will, you are upset. I understand your being upset even if it's no one's fault. As Rich says, buy where you want to stay most. Make sure you wait list your trip for BW.

Dean

[Richyams]

Original contract minimums were 230 points.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I agree, the small packages force many of the owners of those packages to use only the lowest point times, to use only studios and to avoid weekends like the plague. [/quote]

Rich,
I am not accusing you of elitism or anything else but could you please provide some evidence that 150 pt. owners are more likely to avoid weekends, and how our owning "only" 150 pts. hurts you or any other member? Remember, I didn't ask for your opinion, I asked you to provide evidence to support your statement.
My wife and I stay in a studio because there are only two of us (IMO, that's why Disney built studios into DVC). We are able to stay 11 nights and we don't avoid weekends. A family of 5 who owns twice as many points will not be able to stay any longer than us because they have to have a 2 bedroom and they may, in fact be more inclined to budget their points and skip weekends.
Size of accomodation, season (more often than not, this is not a choice but is mandated by work schedules), choice of resort, view; all these factors affect how long a family may stay and how that family allocates their points as much as the number of points that they own.
If I wanted to stay in a grand villa every time I went to WDW, you're right, I don't have enough points. But I don't choose to do that and I have exactly the right amount of points for my family. Please stop opining blanket generalizations and attempting to make others believe that they are facts.
You can say something as many times as you like but that doesn't make it true.

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[brittsmamabwv]

Amen Dave!! We have "only" 210 pts. There are three people incl. my DD who is not quite 3 yet. Those pts allow me to spend almost 3 weeks in a studio which is more than adequate for my family. I don't avoid weekends either. when we originally discussed buying into DVC it was with the presumption that we would spend most of our vacations in a studio when it was only our immediate family. Why would we need something bigger? right?

When you wish upon a star...DVC will take you far...anything your heart desires....will come your way

[Dean]

I believe it's pretty well establised (no I don't have the numbers to prove it) that weekends as a rule are less booked with points than weekdays. There are many factors in my estimation. Certainly those of us that live close by, smaller contracts, as well as the overall points structure are all going to play a role. These are some of the very concerns that made me think that either DVC would adjust the points for weekends vs weekdays or would institute some type of minimum or required stay, as most points systems have already done.

Dean

[Richyams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Weekends do have the lowest occupancy.

Other then GVs at OKW and BWV, studios do go the fastest.

In recent years, and the 150 point buy in is recent, the lowest point periods have also been filled the fastest
[/quote]

What is not true?

Notice that I never accused all 150 point owners, I just that many are forced....even your eleven night trip contributes to two of these things.

I get tired of typing "in my opinion", I would like to see your evidence for believing that 150 point owners use Grand Villas during the weekends in the high point season.

As far as who is harmed, many of us are. We are all harmed by the dues going up because the weekends aren't filled, we are harmed by the call to the resort for a quick long weekend our four day stay anytime during the week on short notice not being available, any weekend is available, but no four day stretches are, no full weeks are, only weekends are available.

I don't know what imbalances and harm is caused by studios being reserved first, I am not certain if one bedrooms go empty because people wanted two bedrooms and there are none available because all the studios are gone...I don't know if that is a problem or not. I suspect that for the speed in which the studios go, that might be a problem.

In conclusion, I believe I have supported my arguments logically and well. I would really like to see your evidence that 150 point owners use Grand Villas on the weekends in the summer.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would really like to see your evidence that 150 point owners use Grand Villas on the weekends in the summer.[/quote]

Refresh my memory. Where did I say that 150 pt. owners use Grand Villas on the weekends in the summer? I simply asked you to provide evidence that 150 pt. owners are hurting DVC. You haven't done that. Any support you offer is your opinion and I would like you to represent it as such. I really don't care if you get tired of typing "in my opinion". When you represent your opinion as fact you are as guilty of misrepresentation as those unscrupulous DVC guides who hard sell VB points.
I stay in a studio because that's all my family needs! If DVC did not intend for my family to be able to stay in a studio, why did they build them?
Once again, how does my owning a 150 pt. contract, staying for 11 nights in a studio,in the summer, in my home resort and spending lots of money hurt DVC?
Facts please...

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[This message was edited by HorizonsFan on 02-21-01 at 11:27 PM.]

[Richyams]

As far as who is harmed, many of us are. We are all harmed by the dues going up because the weekends aren't filled, we are harmed by the call to the resort for a quick long weekend our four day stay anytime during the week on short notice not being available, any weekend is available, but no four day stretches are, no full weeks are, only weekends are available.

Did you miss this paragraph or are you disputing it or are you looking for proof of it or do you deny that small packages increase the occurences of reservations that contribute to the difficulties I have outlined.

I think that it is very obvious that small packages contribute greatly to avoiding weekends like the plague, filling low point seasons faster then ever and studios being the fastest unit to go after Grand Villas.

Next stop, the debate board.....

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you miss this paragraph or are you disputing it or are you looking for proof of it or do you deny that small packages increase the occurences of reservations that contribute to the difficulties I have outlined. [/quote]

I am not in a position to confirm or deny anything you said. You and others on this board may indeed have trouble getting the room you want on the days you want. My point is that you cannot, with any certainty state that this is due to the owners of small contracts. I have seen posts from large contract owners who cut weekends to make more trips during the year. I have seen posts from FL. residents who own large contracts and pop in for several quick trips during the week in the off season because they can and it's inexpensive. You have now seen a post from a small contract owner who makes trips during the summer and doesn't avoid weekends. Where is the proof that small contract owners are causing problems? It simply doesn't exist. If it's anything it's the point structure that DVC has instituted. As long as weekends cost twice as many points as weekdays, more people will avoid weekends whether they have 150 pts. or 550 pts.
BTW, how much have your dues gone up the last three years?

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[msdis]

I have a story to share about our trip 2 weeks ago. We had wanted BWV and was put on the wait list about 2 months prior. Called every day right up until the friday before the sunday we left. It was that day that the first 5 days of our trip opened up. Not at ANY day prior to this did even one day become available and now we had 5. After arrival we checked on the remainder of our stay only to be told nothing yet. By the 2nd full day, friday had shown up and while adding on that day they decided to let us have the remainder of our stay. We were very grateful to all the cast members (there were several involved) who helped us but in no way did I feel the points we stayed there on, belonged to DVC members. I truely feel we stayed the whole entire trip as a result of Disney not renting out their share of the points/rooms and allowing a courtesy to us as a result. And I feel they only gave us part in the beginning in hopes of being able to rent it out the next weekend. This all makes good business sense and in knowing that understand why we didn't get the room at first but did later, on a wing and a prayer. This was our shortest of 3 booking at BWV since becoming members and the other 2 had no problems getting at something like 4 months out and somewhere between 7 and 11 months. Don't forget that the 100 year anniversary of Walt's birth starts in Oct. this year. I really think these celebrations make things worse as far as availabilty. And as far as your friends getting cash ressies, I think that because BWV IS so expensive, that the chance IS greater in obtaining a ressies. I too wonder how the 4% at each resort is allocated. I think it would only make good business sense that based on the points traded out, there be a pecking order as to filling up each resort with cash ressies. If a BWV member trades outside of DVC it does NOT mean that had they stayed within DVC they would have stayed at BWV. So do those points truely belong to BWV or do they really belong to DVC with 4% being the most Disney owns. If 25% of BWV members trade outside of DVC this year does Disney now control 29% of BWV? Or does that 25% get put in a pool along with all other DVC trades and all cash ressies get pulled from that up to the max. amount available from the points traded. And if so is this why BWV is filling up so fast even before the 7 month window, because more points are being sent BWV's way?

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We are all harmed by the dues going up because the weekends aren't filled, [/quote]

Whoa!! Where do have anything to support THAT statement. In many cases, IMO, the weekends ARE utilized by cash rentals- people who want just a getaway weekend on short notice!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> we are harmed by the call to the resort for a quick long weekend our four day stay anytime during the week on short notice not being available, any weekend is available, but no four day stretches are, no full weeks are, only weekends are available. [/quote]

Whoa...AGAIN! In the last statement, you complained that weekends aren't filled- now you expect weekdays to be vacant also....just in case someone who lives nearby will run over for a 4 day weekend or a full week? You can't have it both ways.

Please provide your statistics that any of this is even true- 'cause I sure can't accept it just because it was written on the internet. Some people like to state that all of their comments are based on fact. Please provide the documentation for these statements!

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think that it is very obvious that small packages contribute greatly to avoiding weekends like the plague, filling low point seasons faster then ever and studios being the fastest unit to go after Grand Villas. [/quote]

Actually, I think that even those who claim to have larger "packages" contribute to the weekend issue. I have even read reports of one member who stays in a GV for 12 nights, but who only uses 1 of the 3 weekends available for that stay. That individual contributes to the weekends being available just as much as the 150 point owner who uses a studio from Sun to Fri.
It appears that "abuse" of the weekends knows no point minimums!

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[Richyams]

I don't have the papers here, but DVC sent out something showing the average occupancy on the weekdays vs weekends. This was their basis for the question about evening out the points. I remember that no unit in any season was below 85%, most were higher than 95%.....on weedays.

Weekends were in the 55-65% range.

The papers didn't have any reference to what the deal with cash reservations was.

Sorry if I don't have the paper anymore, but those were the facts, facts, facts, at the time the question was asked. I think the minimum was 190 points then, or maybe it just went to 150....another indication that when it comes to selling more points or mantaining value for current members, selling more points wins every time.

I also agree that any stay that is not 2/7 weekends nights contributes to this. At least a stay that is 2/12 weekend nights is not 0 weekend nights.

I don't remember if that paper showing the occupnacy rates was something everyone got or if it was included with the survey, but it was definitely from Disney.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[WebmasterDoc]

You apparently misinterpreted my question- what information do you have to prove that weekend occupancy adversely affects our dues?

It would seem to me that those rooms may well be utilized by cash rentals- which contribute to the DVC budget. The occupancy listing was included in some POS reports and points weekend use was lower than weekdays- but it does NOT include the cash rentals. The report was about DVC members utilization (on points). I will try to dig out the report, as I don't remember the actual statistics (and I won't try to guess just to support a statement!) ;)

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[Richyams]

I remember their reasoning for wanting to change the point schedule to even out the weekends was because it would increase our dues.

I hope you find it, you will see just how dependable my memory is.

Also, you missed the point of MY statement about short notice reservations. Calling for a four day stay and only having weekends available. If the usage was more even, you would be able to get those stays or nothing would be available....since the total number of points is finite, it would lead to more of those four day stretches being available.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[dianeschlicht]

No, I am not going to get into this discussion, but I have to tell you Rich, when you said,"facts,facts,facts", you reminded me of our illustrius governor Ventura! He always says something and than says, "joke, joke, joke" for the "media jackals", as he calls them. He never wants them to take his rantings seriously.

I just wanted to lighten up this discussion. I don't really think the use of weekend points has probably changed all that much over the course of the DVC since it's inception.

Disneydiane

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I remember their reasoning for wanting to change the point schedule to even out the weekends was because it would increase our dues. [/quote]

How does that relate at all to the FACT that dues have decreased the last few years and the point schedule has remained unchanged since 1996?????

..or are you suggesting that changing the point schedule will increase our dues? (How would that work????)

I don't recall DVC ever offering an explanation as to how a point reallocation would affect anything- especially dues. Perhaps you could share where you remember that from (or better yet, find the source and provide it so we can all read and interpret it)? ....or is this a case of "selectively creative" memory?

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[downontheBW]

We've always gone to WDW in November for 5-7 nights beginning on a Saturday. That hasn't changed now that we are DVCers. We have a 150 point contract because our kids are grown and we only need/want a studio for a week. When I made our ressie for Nov 2001, I was only able to get Sun-Thur - we're wait-listed for the Saturday night.

Nickymouse, there's a chance our plans might change. We have a preferred view studio for 11/11-11/15. If you'd like me to notify you by email if I cancel the ressie, send me your email address (see mine in my profile) and I'll let you know.

Dixie Landings '94, '96
Wilderness Lodge, Yacht Club '98
Off site (never again) '99
BWV '00
HHI '01

Heidi

[Richyams]

What are you talking about, the only reason given for changing the point schedule to even out the weekdays was how it would affect our dues.

There are many factors that affect our dues. Saying that dues have gone down, so my argument must be wrong....is a VERY poor argument, DOC.

It is colder now then it was last summer, see, I just proved that global warming is a farce!!!!!

Global warming is a farce, but there are way better arguments than that one.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[dianeschlicht]

Are you relating this to show that weekend nights are also difficult to get? If so, I think your difficulty is caused more from the need for a studio than the need for a Saturday. Studios seem to fill up the fastest (after GV's).

Disneydiane

[Jimbo]

I'd just like to say that we're staying in a 2BR (the least popular room type) at OKW for 9 nights beginning 5/4/01. Those 9 days include 4 weekend nights, and only 5 weekdays.

Just doin' my part to make things easier on the rest of you DVC members. When your dues don't go up next year, you'll know who to thank. :)

[Figaro30]

The problem is that Disney sways you by saying that use year doesn't matter....and it does....that home resort doesn't matter.....and it does. That's my point. If I knew in December what I know NOW....I wouldn't have bought into OKW and probably would have bought BWV.

Don't let "Disney" blind you....there are still people who work there that are trying to get one over on you or maybe just make things seem less complicated then they really are. They are still people too! Don't be naive to this.

http://lisasclipart.bizland.com/images/figaro1.jpg
'81 - Cont.
'88 - Disneyland
'89 - Maingate East
'91 - CBR
'94 - CBR
'95 - CBR
'98 - BC
'00 - WL
'01 - OKW

[PamOKW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the only reason given for changing the point schedule to even out the weekdays was how it would affect our dues. [/quote]

I remember DVC sending something out showing that weekends were being under utilized and that they were considering rearranging the points. I do not recall at all that it would have any effect on dues.

I use DVC to take my vacations. Most times I end up with 2 weekends in my stays ;) I would love to have the points "evened out".

[JAH]

Sorry to drag you into this Rich,
I agree with your assesemnet of the weekend issue.

My main theory is:

My deed says I own ".1765% of Unit 25" , I own 230 points. Divide 230 by .001765 means that building 25 being sold out is 130311 points.
Doing the math times 65 buildings is a total of 8,470,215 total points sold for the resort (an estimation if all building were identical).
If every single contract was the minimum 230 points there would be 36,827 OKW owners.
If the minimum was 150 points and all owners had that it would be 56,468 members almost 60% more members.
Being that most people would want to get the most bang for the buck they would want to go in the lower point seasons. There are only so many rooms, so the more total members in regards to the rooms the tougher it will be to get the ressie and the more important it is to book at 11 months.
I believe being that the minimum was 230 that MANY more owners at OKW own at least that many probably more, and MANY more BWV owners are at 150 or less than the old minimum of 230. That is why you do not have the situation at OKW that you read about on these boards at BWV. We all know that you need to book a GV at 11 months (Will be staying in August in one for the first time), but tha other rooms are usually availabe at 8& 9 months out. We all knew when bought that this was a system set up best for someone who is prepared and can plan trips well in advance - not for the whimsical spur of the moment vacation.
Doc - I agree that not all 150 pointers avoid weekends entirely and that "most" will avoid them somewhat. I have only once stayed and used both fri and sat for points (But my trips are usually onl 4 or 5 nights).

[This message was edited by JAH on 02-22-01 at 11:16 AM.]

[mickey7861]

We own at VB. Called the first day of my 7 month window and got a 2 bdr. at OKW and a studio at BWV for the weeks of July 22 and 29 with no problem at all. After reading of others problems we were worried. Friend's who own at BWV always have trouble booking but we had no trouble at all.

[WebmasterDoc]

You are the one who stated "We are all harmed by the dues going up because the weekends aren't filled".
I am trying to get you to explain how you arrive at that statement. You assert that weekends are not filled, but dues have in fact gone down-NOT up as you state! I see no evidence that dues have gone up for any reason- especially weekend occupancy.

As for the reason for DVC to do anything, I have not seen any explanation for point reallocation- except to better utilize the reservation habits of the membership at the resorts. If you have some reference relating reallocation to a dues increase, please share the document with everyone. I, for one, am NOT willing to accept your memory as fact.

Doc
doc@wdwinfo.com

[WebmasterDoc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sorry to drag you into this Rich,
I agree with your assesemnet of the weekend issue.[/quote]

JAH- are you saying that you agree with Rich that dues are higher because of weekend occupancy??

Maybe you can explain - as Rich has been unable to convince me that there is any relationship between dues and weekend occupancy- let alone that dues have increased because of occupancy.

[drusba]

A lot of figures are being bandied about, many of which I do not believe are correct. I looked at some of these things not too long by using figures provided in disclosure documents. I am going on memory here so I may not be completely accurate either but here goes:

Based on figures on total points and total number of owners I had from last fall, the average number of points owned by an OKW owner were about 220, at BWV about 230. That does not tell you how many are actually below or above those numbers. However, it is an indication that a lot of people buy more than 150 regardless of that being the minimum.

I also recall those weekday/weekend figures that were provided--which I believe were provided at or as part of the 1998 annual meetings. They weren't that dramatic once you figured out percentages. They gave some example time periods which basically showed in a medium busy time the weekday occupancy rate was about 85% while on weekend it was 65%; during a peak time weekday occupancy was 99% while weekend was about 80%. I am sure some of that is probably those with lower number of points not doing weekends but it is also a lot of people with higher number of points not doing weekends. Moreover, they have mentioned that the situation has "improved" since then, i.e., it does not seem to be getting worse based on the idea that they might be selling a lot more 150 point contracts.

Studios go faster than 1BR's which go faster than 2BR's. That I have been informed of by MS. Of course, they can generate more studios when needed by the lock off system when people are not taking 2BR's. Which raises an interesting point. They keep a lot of rooms available to be reserved as two bedrooms. I suspect that if you are told say 8 months out that all studios are gone that is not exactly true. They are likely still holding large numbers of 2BR's for 2BR ressies and as time passes those may be released as 1BR and separate studios creating more availability (in other words don't necessarily give up if you cannot get a studio now).

The only potential impact on dues that I could see caused by high weekday and low weekend use is on total cost of hotel employees; in other words if you are serving a 100% occupancy rate on weekdays and 70% on weekends you will actually need more employees (or have more doing overtime) than if you are doing 90% all the time. Don't know whether that is an impact of real significance.

[Richyams]

I can't really see the impact on dues either. I just remember that being one of the reasons they gave when asking the question on the survey. when a unit sits empty, the points get used somewhere else. The dues are paid on those points, we are not losing there, Disney or DVC recoups value for points used elsewhere...I don't know, I just remember them using dues as one of the reasons for evening out the points.

Hmmm, for not seeing the figures far a few years, according to dsruba, my memory of occupancy seems pretty perfect.....

Thanks

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Moreover, they have mentioned that the situation has "improved" since then [1998], i.e., it does not seem to be getting worse based on the idea that they might be selling a lot more 150 point contracts. [/quote]

Rich,
If your memory of occupancy is perfect, why did drusba reach this conclusion while you drew the exact opposite?

Dave

http://members.home.net/tdkersh/horizonssignsm.gif

[This message was edited by HorizonsFan on 02-22-01 at 03:16 PM.]

[Dean]

Figaro30

I realize that many people believe what is told them or implied by the DVC sales staff. While they are more ethical than most in the industry, timeshare sales people are as a group to me below used car salesman, LOL. To say "but the DVC sales person said" when discussing something where you have the real info in print or common sense would tell you otherwise, is simply not reasonable. To me, common sense would tell you that you should worry about where your home resort is, else no reason for a home resort priority window between 7-11 months. Again, you only bought OKW and anything over that is truly extra and gravy. Since you bought OKW, did you buy resale, if so, you have no beef with the salesman anyway as you didn't truly act on their advice.

The use year is a different issue. While I think there are advantages for some based on the use year, I think there are few instances where it is truly important.

Adjusting the points for weekends vs weekdays:

I don't see it as a dues issue, more of an availability issue. DVC has the fiduciary obligation to make sure all owners have the chance to use their resort within the specified parameters. If that means that many people are using weekdays and leaving the weekends open, that's a problem. It is especially a problem with a resort like OKW and BW where they are sold out. The truth is that only about 4% of the points should not be available on average for the whole year. Anything less means that there are those that can't use their points.

To me, the rooms that are given up for exchange (CC, DCL, Disney Col, etc) have been used by the DVC member but are now available for rental by DVC who will get the income which they will use to pay for the item obtained in exchange. It would be inappropriate to offer these rooms for points.

The numbers quoted for occupancy are in line with my recollection. I see the numbers posted as a HUGE difference. If those number hold up, DVC must act soon to alter this problem. Even though the weekend nights are only 2/7 of the week, a 20-35% vacancy rate is too much to make up during the week Hopefully, the sell out and limited availability have altered the usage. If I call up and can't get Sundy to Friday but can get Thur to Sunday, I just might take it even if it's more points.

Dean

[Nickymouse]

downontheBW,
Just read your post. You are so sweet to offer! Actually, when I attempted to get the reservation, the only thing they did have available was a studio, so I grabbed it out of desperation. It really is way too cramped for my family though. It is my hope that someone is in the opposite position as me: they booked a 1 BR but would prefer a studio for the week of Nov. 4th. The waitlist is not set up that way to accomodate switches though. Actually, I don't even know if it's allowed, but if anyone out there with 1 BR ressies wants to switch to a studio for that week, let me know.
When I started this thread, I didn't expect it to turn into such a heated discussion on so many different theories. Although, I must admit that I learned alot! I was really just looking to vent and I thank you all for your words of encouragement. Especially to you, downontheBW, for thinking of offering your reservations to me. I'll keep trying until I'm successful.

[WebmasterDoc]

Historical Occupancy Levels.
This is verbatim from the 8/98 Multi-Site POS. Page 81.

"In compliance with Florida law and at such time as the DVC Reservation Component has been in operation for a period of two years, BVTC shall prepare a chart showing the actual levels of occupancy for each reservation seasom at eachDVC Resort during the first calendar year of operation. This chart will be revised and updated every two years.


Season 1995 1996 1997

OKW:
Adventure 100% 100% 81%
Choice 84% 85% 66%
Dream 83% 93% 73%
Magic 80% 88% 71%
Premier 70% 89% 95%

VB:
Adventure N/A 73% 74%
Choice N/A 75% 80%
Dream N/A 98% 100%
Magic N/A 100% 92%
Premier N/A 97% 99%

HH:
Adventure N/A N/A 35%
Choice N/A N/A 76%
Dream N/A N/A 85%
Premier N/A N/A 100%

BWV:
Adventure N/A N/A 100%
Choice N/A N/A 100%
Dream N/A N/A 100%
Magic N/A N/A 100%

Note: The above figures include Members' and Exchangers' use only."


I will try to get an updated record from MS. This document does not show any weekday/weekend usage information. The occupancy only includes the portion of each resort which was declared into inventory fo reach year. As of this report (1997) no resorts had sold out. OKW had it's initial sell-out in 1998.

[JAH]

Sorry Doc-

I meant I agreed with Rich's theory that minimum point contracts contribute to more members avoiding weekends, and going strictly to lower point seasons.(amd that Disney has done us a disservice by lowering the minimum)
I do not see a real correlation to that as to the annual dues, only to the difficulty in getting reservations 8 or 9 months out.

[HorizonsFan]

JAH,

What evidence did you use to reach your conclusion?

Dave

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[Richyams]

How about common sense?

While one may use their 150 point packages to stay weekends, I think that it is only common sense that many do not.

I was very surprised to see that DVC stated that the problem isn't getting worse. I am not sure how I take that information....DVC is in a bind, they do have a conflict. Usually, when a conflict between sales and member's value comes up, sales seems to win every time hands down.

If they are not doing us a diservice, why was there ever any minimum to begin with?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

Common sense is not evidence. If DVC says that the problem has not gotten worse, why do you insist that it has? They have the official figures; you do not.
They have evidence; you have an opinion.
See the difference?

Dave

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[Richyams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> DVC is in a bind, they do have a conflict. Usually, when a conflict between sales and member's value comes up, sales seems to win every time hands down.
[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> DVC is in a bind, they do have a conflict. Usually, when a conflict between sales and member's value comes up, sales seems to win every time hands down.
[/quote]

I will put this up twice, I don't know why it didn't show up on my first post, sorry..

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", Karl Marx, pretty sick, huh?

[HorizonsFan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> DVC is in a bind, they do have a conflict. Usually, when a conflict between sales and member's value comes up, sales seems to win every time hands down. [/quote]

I'll put it up again. That makes four times. It still doesn't make it a fact. It is your opinion which you refuse to (or cannot) support.

Dave

PS - I'm done with this thread. We'll debate again when you have some support for your argument.

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[dianeschlicht]

play nice!

Disneydiane

[drusba]

I'll just add a final view. Is there a weekday/weekend use difference? Undoubtedly. Its major causes are two-fold: (a) Disney set up a system that made weekends unattractive on the point scale; and (b) DVC members are not dummies. Regardless of how many points you have, you will try to maximize weekday use and minimize weekend use if your schedule allows. I do it even for extended trips--we often go for 12 nights/13 days by arriving on a Sunday and leaving on a Friday; though we use points for weekend nights during that stay we are obviously doing our best to minimize it to just two of those 12 nights. If you broke that trip down into two components, a week and 5 nights (the second being Sun through Thurs night), for the second one I am doing nothing different from someone who goes only on weekdays(so I guess half of me is contributing to the problem).

It is possible that if there are a lot of people with 150 point contracts a lot of those will do their best to avoid weekends, but a lot of people with a lot more points are doing the same thing. The system is set up to have that inherent problem. Moreover there is no easy fix. For example, Disney could shift some of those weekend points to weekdays, but even then the maximum change per day cannot exceed 15% (or is it 20%, cannot recall off-hand) in any one year meaning it would take several years of shifting points to even out the days. Meanwhile, weekends would still be unattractive and something to avoid or minimize if you can.

Second is there an inordinate demand for off-seasons because of their lower point costs? My guess would be not much because here the controlling factor is most often not the point cost but instead when your schedule allows you to go--most people with kids in school just aren't going to be doing those off-seasons. Younger couples without kids can always do it but for most of them the laws of nature will catch up (i.e., they will have kids). Older people whose kids are gone can do it, although many will find that is a temporary reprieve--soon they will be going when the grandkids can go (I am already in that situation even though I still have two at home).

In other words, I guess my view is Disney created this problem from day one by requiring a lot more points on weekends. Whether the minimum number of points were 150, 190, or 230, it would still exist. I guess the argument is that the higher the points required the fewer the number of people that would buy and therefore the fewer that would be vying for weekday spots on the calendar, particularly for studios. That might have some validity. But there is another way of looking at it. If the minimum was 230 and everyone bought at that level or higher, those with the higher points, who usually want 1BR or 2BR's for the same times(and find them fairly easy to get) would likely be facing a lot more competition for those.

[Joeblack]

How Would you feel if some member who owns 1000 points claimed that Disney has dis-serviced them by allowing people to buy lower point contracts?

Disney's objective is not to try to service the unreasonable grandeur dreams of any particular member, but actually to make it available for families who enjoy going to WDW often.

I believe Disney is trying to reach an upper-middle class segment by setting the minimum at 150 points. The costs involved in it are reasonable but not by any means affordable to just anyone.


As for the lower point contracts "making it harder" on the members with "big packages", I totally disagree and see no evidence whatsoever to prove such a claim. It is obvious that people will try to maximize their points according to the structure Disney has set whether they own 150 or 1000 points. That is exactly the reason why November is full. It is a month that allows you to stretch your points the most. DVCers are people who like to make rational, cost effective decisions, or else they would not have joined DVC.

If Weekends or certain seasons didn't cost more, they would fill up first and then there would for sure be a group of people complaining in these boards about how unfair Disney is.

Figaro: How would you expect Disney to offer you the other options like cruises, the concierge collection or even the Disney Colection if they did not take the points you trade them for and make the best use out of them by making them available to the general public?

[Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Disney's objective is not to try to service the unreasonable grandeur dreams of any particular member, but actually to make it available for families who enjoy going to WDW often. [/quote]
Actually I believe Disney's goal was to make money. It's only common sense to expect that people with smaller contracts will have less options for larger unit, higher cost times and weekends. I'm not saying it's wrong or an absolute, just reality that the amount of points owned will dictate usage to a large degree.

Dean

[HorizonsFan]

Dean,

I don't agree that small contracts are making reservations harder to come by. There are only two in my family. My 150 pts. goes far enough so that we can stay for 11 nights including a weekend. IMO, our points go farther than 300 pts. might go for a family of 5. Size of contract is only one of a number of factors that may lead to the choice of unit, season traveled and whether a family stays over on a weekend. If the minimum contract were 300 pts. you still might have large family more inclined to skip weekends and go during the off season.
The bottom line is, the reason many of us bought into DVC is because of the flexibility. We can go whenever we want, stay as long as we want and stay in whatever size accomodation fits our needs.
The one thing I was told repeatedly by my guide was to buy where I wanted to stay and that DVC works best if one can plan ahead. I followed that advice and have been able to get the room I want at 11 months out. If one isn't able to plan that far ahead, they may not get what they want. That's the system as designed and advertised (at least to me). Small contract owners are not taking all the rooms during the week. People who can plan ahead are taking these rooms, and until the weekend point cost gets closer to the weekday cost it will continue to be so.

Dave

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[Dean]

Dave, of course I was generalizing. I maintain that common sense would dictate that overall those with less points will use smaller units and likely be less inclinded to stay in higher points rooms (premier, larger units, weekends). I can promise you that we tend to be more free with our points now with 502 points than we were with 270 points. Now it may be that a portion of those with smaller contracts bought less points because they intended to utilize DVC with the lower points rooms (smaller, off season, weekdays, standard BW). I suspect this is far more likely the case than to say that someone went out and bought 150 points then decided to use the lower point rooms.

Sounds like a good topic for a poll.

Dean

[MN_DizNut]

Just another point of view...Historically when we do WDW, we are usually there for 2 weekends, arriving late Friday or very early Saturday, and leaving mid-day or later on the Sunday of the next weekend.

Perhaps the weekend charges have more to do with people like us. Our staying until the last possible minute ties up a room that could possibly be occupied by a family just arriving on Saturday. Our typically trip will get us into a room the day beofre many families, and out of it a day later than many families want... Perhaps by increasing the weekend point value, they are trying to acheive a more traditional resort balance (ie: check in Saturday afternoon and leave the following Saturday morning to turn the room over to the next folks.

Knowing me tho, it isn't gonna work...I'd just buy more points :D :D :D

Jon

WDW '85 offsite
DL '85
DL '87
WDW '89 offsite
WL '97
WL '97 (again!)
WH '99
AStSp '99 (YUCKY!!!)
DCL/Poly Jun/July '02

[HorizonsFan]

Dean,

I understand your generalization and that may well be true. You said yourself, however that you were not so free with points even when you had 270. I think this illustrates my point. Even when you had almost twice as many points as the current 150 pt. minimum, you were still conservative with your points. As I said before, people should buy the right amount of points for their family. If the minimum were 270 pts, I would have more points than my wife and I could use during the average year. I'm sure this would cause me to lose points or have to rent them out some years.
We stay in a studio not only because it uses fewer points but because that's all the room we need. We don't need a stove or full sized fridge or extra privacy. People who stay in studios are not always trying to squeeze points. Some of us like it! :)
Some days I would like to have that jacuzzi tub though...

Dave

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