Ebay, I know we've been over this before, but

[WDWDad]

I just looked on E-Bay and discovered what some others have been complaining about. This is outrageous! Someone called vacations4u is advertising 5 night stays at OKW for sale. Of course they are excluding weekend stays thereby maximizing their ability to screw the rest of us over. The most infuriating part is at the bottom where he is also advertising confirmed reservations for Easter, Christmas, and New Years for accomadations of either 4, 8 or 12 guests. I take this to mean that somehow this bozo has managed to get confirmed reservations for all 3 of these holidays in all possibilities of room assignments, studio thru grand villa. If this is not an outright abuse of the system and the agreement we all signed when buying our memberships then I don't know what is. I have already sent an email to MS telling them how I feel about this. Can anything else be done? How can we maintain the integrity of our DVC if DVC is unwilling

[dianeschlicht]

I agree with you. I don't really have an argument with people renting out a few points, but this is obviously someone who looks at it soley as a source of income. As I have stated elsewhere, I would never use Ebay for a transaction of this magnatude anyway, but I have always felt these types of situations to be unfair. Maybe he is guessing at getting a GV during a holiday, but I doubt it. Kind of reminds me of someone we used to hear from occationally on this board. I know he still lurks, because he shows up on the budget board once in awhile touting his wares. :(

Disneydiane

[dianeschlicht]

I agree with you. I don't have a problem with anyone renting a few points, but this seems to be blatantly a for profit venture for this person. As I stated elsewhere, I would never make a transaction of this magnitude on Ebay anyway, but obviously this person has had to reserve these accommodations at the 11 month window, especially the GV's. I doubt he would take his chances! It reminds me of someone we used to hear from on this board who still lurks. I see him occationally touting his wares on the budget board.

:( Sorry of this is a repeat. I posted, and then my post was lost. I know they sometimes reappear from cyber space, so hope it isn't a duplicate. Darn, it was... SORRY!

Disneydiane

[nuthut]

WDWdad, why do you care what someone else does with their points? Everyone has equal opportunity to make any reservations they want, don't they? I do not understand why you were "screwed over" by that. It has never been a problem for me.

PS, our high schools play each other, will I see you at the game?

Jerry

[CarolA]

Actually I would be very hesitant to buy from this person. The only way he could have reservations for all those periods and combinations is to have enough points to block them. I find that highly unlikely! So he probably does not have these places reserved but tries to get them after you agree to buy. I hope no one actually gives this person money without proof of the reservation!

CarolA

[mickeyc]

Pehaps as a new member I don't know the rules well enough. However, how someone uses their points is up to them. As far as I am concerned I purchased DVC interest to enjoy the atmosphere and WDW. How someone uses their points--I could care less. We all have the same opportunity to book through MS. It seems if this person had enough pts. to make those reservations. Enjoy WDW after all that is why it is there!!! ( smile)

[WDWDad]

Nuthut, Why do I care?

Because I think it violates the rules and because I believe it violates the spirit into which most of us entered into this club.

I also think that our use of the resorts as members should have priority over those who would use their memberships for financial gain. I believe that it is possible that this person has gained possesion of a significant # of points. Possibly even thru multiple memberships, which is easily done. I take him at his word that he has these reservations. Just as I would expect to taken at my word if I publish it on a public forum such as this.

The person responsible has gone out of their way to gain reservations using the Special seasons preference list that they have no intention of using. Potentiallly taking away the spot from some member family that shelled out big bucks to buy a membership that they thought they could use.

I should mention that I am objecting to this behavior on principle. My family has in no way been inconvenienced in our ability to take vacations. We do not use the S.S.P.L, but I believe that membership in DVC strictly prohibits this person's behavior. You may say that because it doesn't affect me that I shouldn't care. You could say I shouldn't care at all. Well I do care. I believe it is unfair and unethical. I believe DVC should do more to prevent this type of commercial behavior from happening

[PamOKW]

Vacations4U sounds like a business to me....

[drusba]

Though the official documents allow you to rent, you cannot be doing it for a "commercial purpose." That term includes "a pattern of rental activity that [DVD], in its reasonable discretion, could conclude consitutes a commercial enterprise or practice." I would say the situation described probably meets that definition. As I do not believe many are actually engaging in a business of renting points, I do not get overly concerned. Also, I do not personally believe it can very profitable (he has to recapture his investment, pay dues and can only own so many points). In additon, if the person is basically in the business of renting units I hope he has done all his home work on what that means.For example, does he understand that he is subject to paying the 11% Florida resort rental tax, has to register his business with the state (and pay applicable fees), etc.? Also, if he is running that business from a state other than Florida, he is also subjected to the rules of the other state having to do with registering, paying fees etc. If the person is not following all the necessary state laws, he is playing a dangerous game, including the risk of incurring huge fines.s

[Dean]

I don't think we'll ever solve this arguement. On one side are those that feel if they don't get exactly what they want every time, it must be because someone has rented out their points and have therefore decided this is bad. On the other side are those that feel they can do what they want with their points. My personal feelings, as I've stated previously, is that the rules do specifically allow renting and do not qualify or restrict this activity in any way. True there is a qualifier for "commercial use" but no definition as to what this is and to be honest, they can't legally ban one from renting what one owns anyway as long as the rest of the rules are followed. To attempt do so would require a zoning ordinance baning renting in general and that would do away with ANY rentals including through Disney.

As long as one has followed the rules and booked something that any owner at THAT resort could have booked given the appropriate circumstances, I think it's unreasonable to even suggest that one shouldn't rent their points. Worrying about how much they charge, how much they clear, how they structure the rental as for maximum benefit to the seller just seems petty to me. Now I said renting what anyone who owns at that resort could secure as a reservation, to me this leaves out lotteries and Special preference lists because not all members at that resort had the same opportunity. The arguement that one cannot call at the proper time for one reason or the other has no bearing on this discussion, IMO, nor does anyone from another resort that wants to schedule at the 7 months window.

From me, this is more principle as well. While I have rented a few times, I have never rented for more than $10.50 pp and currently charge $10 pp though I'm thinking about going up to $11. I have only listed on auction time that I had rented and the renter backed out and I had already borrowed the points.

Dean

[eva]

I wonder how concerned DVC is about commercial use of DVC. In November my husband and I went to the Tuesday morning meetind at OKW. They were giving away prizes by asking questions to the members. One of the prizes was for the most points. A guy there said that he had 2000 points at OKW and 1000 points at HH. As the CM was giving him his prize she asked how he found time to use all of his points each year. He actually said that he usually just rented the points out. The CM stopped dead in her tracks. She stared at him so hard that I thought she was going to burn a whole right through him. The guy then quickly added that he shared them with friends and family. I don't think that the CM believed him on that one. I wonder if they even looked into this situation. The guy pretty much admitted what he was doing in a room full of people. I don't think that any of the members were too thrilled with this guy. I do wonder though if DVC does anything about this and whether they consider this commercial use of his points.

[dianeschlicht]

I guess I must have interpreted the part about not using your membership for profit wrong. Here I felt bad about donating 40 points to my sons private high school last year! I even called MS to make sure it was all right to do that! They said we should not be renting them out, but since this was a charity, it should be all right. HMMMMMM, maybe member services interpreted it the same way I did. At any rate, next time I won't worry if I want to donate more points to his high school. BTW, they got $1500 at auction for Sun.-Fri. (5 weeknights) in a studio at OKW. They did link 2 free frequent flyer airline tickets to it also.

Disneydiane

[WDWDad]

Dean, did you read my post? I have not ever lost a reservation because of availibilty. I am not motivated by some sense of revenge because I lost a vacation opportunity. I am concerned however that there is something beginning here which could jeopardize our future enjoyment of DVC.

My concern is that if this were to become popular/profitable then we are going to lose the sense of community which is currently even now is on the wane in our DVC community. If anyone were able to go on E-Bay and pick up a reservation booked by a member then there is no longer any reason to be a member of DVC. I know that anyone can call right now and pick up a rservation from CR, but they are limited to a very small portion of the overall availibility. If that percentage is upset by DVC'ers suddenly jumping on to the Ebay bandwagon changes will be felt.

I have no problem with a DVC'er occasionally, and I mean occassionally renting his points out. Things happen, and there may be a time that you cannot use your points, fine. I have a problem with those who are buying large amounts of points with the express purpose of renting them to non friends and family. To make money in short.

We have seen many posts on these boards about people wanting to get more than $10 per point. I think that these could be some of the people in the business of renting points for profit. Dean says that our points cannot be regulated, except by some ambigous definition of commercial activity. I disagree that the term commercial is ambigous. Advertising high point value reservations for sale for multiple holiday stays in addition to small point reservations for any time period you want qualifies as commercial

[bjcgl]

Just looked at ebay and found someone selling 380 points - the bid is at $26,000 - over $68/point. Too bad that buyer didn't look into a resale!

[drusba]

I disagree with Dean that Disney could not limit the ability to rent the units because I believe legally it could through rules set out in the disclosure documents if it had done so when it started selling units. Nevertheless, Disney chose to make the only limitation that you cannot be doing it for a commercial purpose, and by descriptions in the disclosure as to what that means, the limitation seems to be aimed at preventing people from going into a regular business of renting points. I perceive a large difference between someone (a) buying 1200 points, generally using 600, and renting the rest to pay dues and mortgage payments and possibly making a few extra bucks, and (b) someone who buys the maximum 5,000 without the intent of using them but instead setting up a business to rent them. The first is likely not doing it for a commercial purpose, the second is. And note I would still believe that even if the first person did the dastardly deed (as perceived by many) of getting Christmas time by use of the special list and then renting it out.

I also consider the second person to be engaging in a lot of wishful thinking if he believes he can make a living renting points. Moreover, there do not appear to be many actually engaging in the business. When you think about it the only market would be on the internet (you certainly aren't going to do much renting advertising in a newspaper) and most here pick up on the ones in that market, and we have not seen that many. Thus, though they are very noticeable to us, I seriously doubt they have much impact on others being able to reserve rooms. c

[fkj2]

I would agree with others that what a member does with his/her points is their business. I think most people do use the points for their own enjoyment. I also have a concern that Dis may be selling more points than can accommodate the members but I'm not that much of a mathematician to figure it out. Some members are using their points for exchanges and that helps out the resorts by deflecting usage.

I could almost interpret the discussion to be that it's OK to rent points, as long as they are rented cheaply, which is great for the lessee. It's still a supply/demand phenomenon, and if the economy tanks tomorrow, renting points might become more difficult. About that guy who said he owned a total of 3000 points, it doesn't seem to have bothered Disney when he was paying them for the points. I'm not saying this should become a business and I doubt Dis put that clause in the contract because they were altruistic about the other owners, they just didn't want any competition for their other resorts

[Dean]

WDWDAD, I did read your post and realized easily that your were posting your views from a principle standpoint, I was more responding to the overall thread and taking into account the previous discussions on this issue. It is essentially a yes or no question, either it's ok or it's not., there's really no in between. Where Disney would have issues would be more with advertising using their protected "property" and similar. I also realize that Disney is the 600 lb. gorilla and can bully their way through a lot of issues.

I think it's clear that Disney included the information as they did to give them leverage just in case. They obviously have no intention of worrying about renting. The most they could do would be to limit the member benefits as quoted in the By-Laws and rules. Of course there are tax implications and the like when you get to a certain level of activity but that's a different thread.

I'm afraid that we'll never be to solve this as there are those out there that so desperately want no one to be able to rent that they would look for any excuse to make it so. Reminds me of the abortion issue and the Prez's trist. Either it's right or it's wrong, and according ot DVC, it's ok to rent your points.

As to renting affected the overall atmosphere or the resort experience, I guess that's possible in an extreme situation. Truthfully, of the few people I've rented to over the years, the renters have been far more appreciative and easy to deal with than the one member. Sure it's a small sample but it's been my experience. I own a timeshare and as much as I like and enjoy the camraderie on this board and at DVC, it's still my ownership and as long as I follow the rules in place and the laws of the land, I'm upholding my end of the bargain. I don't owe anything to anyone on this board or at DVC and no one on this board owes me anything. Well except that one member who rented then backed out, she's around her somewhere. Well except that we all owe Pete and the volunteers our deepest appreication and thanks.

Dean

[Caskbill]

Legal or not, one point everyone is missing is that we as DVC owners have a vested interest in the resorts. People who rent points do not as that may be the one and only time they may stay there. IMHO I believe DVC owners tend to take better care of the units than renters do. As such we bear whatever additional maintenance fees are incurred due to renter's indiscretions.

Sure, members may do whatever they want with their points, but as the saying goes, "You have the right to swing your arm as much as you want, UNTIL it makes contact with my nose"

[LisaR]

Sorry Caskbill, I am offended by your remarks. You can not make an assumption that DVC owners take better care of their "home" then those that rent. As someone who has rented points many times and now owns at DVC, I take issue with that. I would not trash a Motel 6 or The Plaza or anything in between. It does not matter if I own there or not. I know people who live in VERY expensive houses that do not take care of them at all. Some people own very nice cars and the inside looks like a junkyard. Do not tell me that there are not any DVC members who have never left their "home" a mess, smoked in a N/S unit, stolen something, etc. Vested interest or not, some people are slob and don't care. Others (Yes, that includes those of us who have rented points), would never treat a hotel, house, car, DVC or anything that way. Please don't generalize.

Lisa

[Dean]

Lisa, as I noted, the only problem I've had was with a member both of DVC and this site. The people I've rented from have, to the person, been wonderful and very excited to visit "my home". I've even been sent thank you gifts from a couple of them upon their return to show me how wonderful and special this was to them.

I'd say the the groups having the highest risk of trashing our home away from home would be the few that exchange in through II and possibly those that rent through CRO. Not that I expect many of them to be a problem either, just comparing groups. Be aware that DVC charges those that exchange in an additional $95 fee and this fee tends to piss those people off.

Dean

[LisaR]

Dean,
Just so you know, I was in no way referring to your post - as I stated.

If someone is going to be a slob or steal or cheat, then they are going to do just that. That person may be an owner, renter, or a cash paying customer. To generalize as Caskbill did that DVC owners take better care of their "homes" then renters is flat out nonsense and insulting. It says that when I use to rent points, I did not care what shape I left my unit in. However, now that I am a DVC owner, I will take better care of it. I am a morally sound, decent individual who would not ruin something just because I didn't own it. Since most hotels in the world are NOT timeshares, therefore are "rented" by individuals that do not have a vested interest, explain why so many are still in such good shape and thrive? I stay in top notch Chicago properties regularly and often times in NY as well and those "renters" seem to be keeping the facilities up very well.

Sorry, but this just really irritated me. Now that I own DVC, I do not consider myself any better, cleaner or responsible then someone who rented some points.

[Dean]

Lisa, I was just agreeing with you, stating a similar thing in a different way. To be honest, I do a little more to help out the maids now that I'm better versed on how things work. I've was always taught that you take even better care of someone else's property than you do your own and I've tried to teach my children the same thing.

Dean

[WDWDad]

I'm sorry lisaR, but I agree with caskbill. Both you and Dean just said that you both treat your rooms better since you are DVC owners. No one accused anyone of trashing a unit. Caskbill stated that as owners we have an interest in DVC that someone renting doesn't have. It is only human nature to take care of something which matters to you. Therefore we try to go above and beyond the minimums when we stay at our DVC resorts. I have stayed at many other hotels,motels, and condo's and I guarantee while I did not trash any of them I take better care of my OKW room than any other I have stayed in.

Also can we please not take offense so quickly. Caskbill merely stated an opinion with a widely respected generality. Caskbill did not attack anyone. To be offended already was an over reaction

[Dean]

I didn't say I treated it better, I don't. I personally treat it just as well as any other hotel I stay at, no better, no worse. All I do extra is try to help out the maids at the end of the stay. I'm convinced that the handful of people I've rented to over the years have treated the units at least as well as I have if not better, at least based on their level of excitement both before and after the trip. I think many people feel like they own it and can do whatever they want. But as long as we're argueing which of use takes better care of the units, we should all be ok.

Dean

[LisaR]

WDWDAD, Let me "over react and take offense again so quickly". First of all, please point out in my post where I "admitted that I take better care of DVC"? Also, please point out where Dean says the same thing?

Your statement of "it is only human nature to take care of something which matters to you" I guess just shows that we were raised very, very different. That is okay. Not everybody is the same. However, I was rasied to take care of something no matter who it belongs to. And as Dean stated, if it belongs to someone else, I was also raised to treat it even better.

I am sorry, but I do take great offense to the assumption that DVC owners treat DVC resorts better then renters or cash paying customers. I will stake my life on it that there are DVC owners out there who have stolen towels, silverware and many other things from their "home". It is a very sad world that we live in if people are being raised to only take care of their "own" stuff. Call me nieve, but my friends and family were raised much different.

I am honestly not trying to start a war. I tend to stay out of controversial posts because I really don't think anything gets resolved - as I am sure this won't get resolved either. However, I have rented points 6 times and belive me, I have left DVC in mint condition. I have also stayed on property paying cash and have left the rooms in mint condition. And now that I am a DVC owner, I will do the exact same thing. As is the case in most everything in life, it is the minority that ruins things, not the majority and in this case I believe the minority to be a mix of owners, renters and cash customers.

Lisa

[WDWDad]

LisaR

However, now that I am a DVC owner, I will take better care of it.

Dean

To be honest, I do a little more to help out the maids now that I'm better versed on how things work.

Perhaps I misunderstood your posts, but they seem simple enough to me.

You and I are not so far apart. I agree that one should always have respect for everyone whether it be property or otherwise. I agree that there probably are owners who do damage,steal, whatever. My point simply was that I believe that most people who belong to DVC will treat it better overall. I still stick to my opinion on this. I am not saying that renters will trash the place, but on average they do not feel the same sense of attachment to the resorts that we do.

LisaR, you returned to DVC as a renter several times. You obviously felt some sense of home or community there. I only hope that all members, renters, or cash ressies occupants leave the rooms in the same condition as you. But, as a person who has rented residential properties to people I know that a significant percentage do not share your sense of responsibility

[slindamood]

I wonder if the person advertising so many reservations is a DVC owner or is a broker - - more like a scalper. Buys from many owners then markets those units. If he is not the owner but the scalper, each individual DVC member renting to that person may be making "occasional" rentals and may not be breaking the commercial rule.

I believe that DVC cannot legally prevent rentals due to the concept of free alienability of real property - - meaning that property owners have a legal right to sell and to rent their property.
DVC is probably OK in prohibiting a commercial purpose, but it would be difficult to say at what point the occasional rental turns into a commercial enterprise. I guess they know it when they see it

[LisaR]

I promised myself that I was done responding on this subject, but I can't leave myself misquoted.

I said:
"To generalize that DVC owners take better care of their "homes" then renters is flat out nonsense and insulting. It says that when I use to rent points, I did not care what shape I left my unit in. However, now that I am a DVC owner, I will take better care of it."

My point was that I wouldn't take care of something better as an owner then a renter.

I 100% agree that there are people that rent (actual houses to live in, timeshares, cars, etc) and do not respect the property. However, to say they treat it that way because they don't own it, I feel is wrong. I think they treat the property poorly because that is just the way they are. They are just not decent individuals. I think the percent of people who have extreme personalities is small. By extreme, I mean that they actually think little of a place because it is rented yet they are extremely neat when they own it. Those people do exist but I think they are in the minority. Just like I think that some people that own any timeshare think that they are "entitled" to an extra towel to take home because afterall, they do pay those dues. Those people exist but they are also in the minority. Any morally sound individual isn't going to go into ANY hotel, drop something on the carpet and just leave it there and walk all over it if they have an ounce of decency. Owning, in my opinion has nothing to do with it. An individual is an individual who makes up their mind to do the right thing or the wrong thing, period.

I promise I am done. I assume everyone has figured out my opinion on this. I leave Wednesday for 7 nights at OKW on rented points (rented them before we bought into DVC). You have my promise that the villa will be left in mint condition because that is my personality - not because I now own a part of it.

Lisa

[WDWDad]

I am also done here. I thought it would be fun to talk about issues such as these from a detached point of view. I never attacked anyone here, but rather wanted to talk about the concept of whether or not commercial enterprises where being employed on ebay in regards to DVC. That point was lost early on.

Then we seemed to digress into discussing the use and care of renters vs. owners. Could have been an interesting subject, yet as always seems to happen the thread degenerates into a personal nature. I was speaking to ideas and patterns of behavior of a group in general. LisaR seems to think I was speaking to her specifically. I will allow for the fact that lisaR is an exceptional renter/member if she will allow for the fact that her behavior is part of an overall larger group behavior that is not totally defined by her conduct alone.

I'm outa here

[JAH]

I have rented points on Ebay. I do not make a business of it, I love our DVC vacations and it is the reason we joined. However when circumstances arrive that points cannot be used or an abundance accumulates because of an inability to get off work, we all have the ability to rent them. I personally feel that selling them for $10 a point is selling it way short of a fair market value.
When I first became interested in DVC Disney was selling points at around $60. Points on the rent/trade board were going for $10. Now Disney is selling them for $72 and they still think $10 a point is fair (some think too high)when Disney has also raised the rack prices of all resorts considerably.
Consider a 5 night studio vacation that cost 40 points at $10 that is $400 or $80 a night (less than an all star).
Vacation4u had an auction that closed last week , it was a studio (40 points)and the winning bidder at $610 did not meet the reserve - meaning Vacation4u thought that getting $15.25 a point was too low- this is a little extreme - and I feel that they are probably trying to conduct a business of it.
The thought of members taking better care of the units than non members is ridiculous.
I had stayed at OKW as a non member with an AP discount and treated the room no different. In plain english- A slob is a slob period. A considerate person is just that and does not need a vested interest to take proper care of property.
To sum it up I do not feel that if I can get $200 -$300 more on renting points I am unable to use on Ebay than why should I not. If you went to by anything and you could get it for $300 cheaper somewhere else most certainly you would. If you are selling something why settle for less.