Should GM be bailed out?

[ntsammy5]

... and through association Ford and Chrysler. Most everyone here is very attached to their vehicles and probably has an opinion about this.

Having GM go out of business will probably force Ford and Chrysler out too because of the connectivity of all the parts manufacturers and national unemployment will end up will who knows where - 15%?

In the long run it may be best to let things fall where they may, but there are compelling reasons for a bailout. I have mixed feelings about this.

How do you feel?

[PolynesianPixie]

I have mixed feelings too. This has sort of a downward spiral effect, so I guess I'm for it...although it pains me to say. I want to keep big business in the states...I also want to see those new fuel efficient and alternative fuel prototypes have a chance at succeeding so we aren't funding our enemies.

What I don't want to see are higher level execs who all ready bring in the big bucks, despite what business is doing, get obscene bonuses funded by tax dollars when the average Joes are just scraping by.

[ftwildernessguy]

I fall into the mixed feelings category. While I understand the need to preserve the employment levels to prevent more severe economic problems overall, I am no fan of bailing out a business due to poor business decisions and poor management. I wonder, too, if the situation is as bad as the companies are implying, or if they are painting a bad picture in order to get in on the government bailout? Now airlines are whining and talking bailout - where will it end?

[Abagpiper5]

As of right now, I say NO to bailing anyone out.

The banks have not used ANY of the money given to then to help anyone’s foreclosure, so why would anyone think that any other business would be responsible with our money?

As of the other day, they are lending out 2 trillion dollars of OUR money and will not tell us who or what country they are giving it to.

AIG with the $300,000 party and the financial companies still wanting to give bonus’s out to their people so they don’t lose them is ridicules too. I say let those people who cry that they didn’t get a bonus because of poor performance walk. With this bad economy, who is going to higher them?

As for the Big 3, I believe they are making the problem bigger then it really is. With all the current cars on the roads, there will still need to be a market for replacement parts. Let’s face it, 20K for an average 4 door American car is way pricey. GM killed the electric car for the Hummer, and we all know what happen to the Hummer.:rolleyes1

I know, I am sorta all over the place with this post. Sorry.

:confused3 :confused3 :confused3 :confused3

[AuburnJen92]

I will have to fall in the mixed category as well. The unions and high paid execs have driven up the price of making these cars sky high and the quality has plummeted over the years. I would like for GM to have a very low interest loan that they have to pay back, like when I had from the Small Business Administration to help defray the massive deductible I had to pay for my claim during all the hurricanes. If they know they are going to have to pay it back and have to restructure in the process, that might give them some incentive to change. It might not. I understand there are people that are in favor of unions, but I do believe that today much of the work is getting to the point of automation and they are paid based on a line of work that has changed and the pay for it should change as well. I know it sounds really harsh, but it is reality. They are getting paid for work based on a 1940's through 1970's work line with hard physical labor. I feel that cars have been priced out of the average joe's pocket because of the unions' cost in making the cars in the first place. JMHO.

[vick]

My husband gets a retirement check from GM every month. He worked for Delphi, a company that once was GM. When Delphi went bankrupt, he took early retirement because of the plant closure. Since GM pays his retirement every month, I have to hope they stay in business.

[big kahuna1]

I say no bailout. I believe the Big 3 need to merge and become the Big 2 or Big 1. Then the first thing they need to do is renegotiate the Union Contracts and Executive pay. If the Unions do not want to renegoitiate then give the workers a choice...negotiate or get fired and replaced. Same for the execs. There are plenty of people who will take there jobs and learn them. Then they need to Dump the mfg. of the non-money making auto's of all three brands and also look to the future with a line of more efficient auto's but I still think there is a market for some of the muscle cars and tow vehicles. They need to do this to remain profitable and competitive. They will have to close some plants down and some will lose their jobs but we cannot keep bailing out companies. Heck, I could use some help here but I have to do it the old fashion way....cut expenses. Bailing them out has been done once already and it did not work, apparently.

[loveDmouse]

I have mixed feelings too.

Personally I feel they should have not done a bail out at all. They should have let things fall where they may. Those bad eggs caused the problems in the first place. Why should us tax payers help bail them out? They aren't even really accounting for what these companies are doing with the money. For example PNC who has received a lot of money is shutting down some banks locally but gobbling up other banks with that money. That doesn't seem right to me. :headache:

I feel like the automakers should be helped before the other idiots.

[auntie]

There are so many jobs and pensions tied to the auto industry. It can't be a good thing to see GM go under. The government has thrown money away on the airline industry a couple of times. I have to think that bailing out the auto industry will save "Main Street" Americans their jobs. Of course I'd like to see a comphrensive plan..and how exactly the money would be spent. Do we even know how this Wall Street bail out is being parcelled out?
It doesn't seem fair to bail out Wall Street..but let the people of this country who build our automobiles fall by the way side. I'd also like to see a tarrif on imported autos, making them more expensive to buy. Giving the American auto maker an edge with American auto buyers. How about making it so that the parts for these auto's also have to be made in AMERICA.

[~Kristina~]

Part of me says no because the government isn't suppose to be bailing companies out. But the other part knows that it would kill Michigan for good.

[bigdisneydaddy]

I think GM is trying to use the current economic and social climate to rid themselves of their legacy costs by making the situation seem more dire than it really is.
Their lack of foresight in funding their legacy costs is akin to what the government has done with social security.

[g8trmom1]

I say no bailout. I believe the Big 3 need to merge and become the Big 2 or Big 1. Then the first thing they need to do is renegotiate the Union Contracts and Executive pay. If the Unions do not want to renegoitiate then give the workers a choice...negotiate or get fired and replaced. Same for the execs. There are plenty of people who will take there jobs and learn them. Then they need to Dump the mfg. of the non-money making auto's of all three brands and also look to the future with a line of more efficient auto's but I still think there is a market for some of the muscle cars and tow vehicles. They need to do this to remain profitable and competitive. They will have to close some plants down and some will lose their jobs but we cannot keep bailing out companies. Heck, I could use some help here but I have to do it the old fashion way....cut expenses. Bailing them out has been done once already and it did not work, apparently.

Steve for President!!

[drafthorsecrazy]

My husband gets a retirement check from GM every month. He worked for Delphi, a company that once was GM. When Delphi went bankrupt, he took early retirement because of the plant closure. Since GM pays his retirement every month, I have to hope they stay in business.

My husband also took early retirement with GM because he was afraid of what would happen with Delphi taking over our local plant. So I also have a very personal hope for the survival of GM. With that being said, someone needs to get control of the EXCESSIVE top executives salary and bonuses. Why are they patted on the back and given bonuses for not thinking ahead and taking care of business? Retirees should not suffer for the top exec's shortsightedness. I don't think even Walmart has enough door greeter jobs to offer to all the retirees who would be searching for supplemental income should GM--or any of the big 3 fail.

[Justin the Hook]

No bailout, When did it become required of the government to make things right? GM, Ford, and Chrysler all made their beds, they should have to sleep in them. This is one point that you could never turn me. There is no reason that anyone should help them.

[3gr8kids]

I say no bailout. I believe the Big 3 need to merge and become the Big 2 or Big 1. Then the first thing they need to do is renegotiate the Union Contracts and Executive pay. If the Unions do not want to renegoitiate then give the workers a choice...negotiate or get fired and replaced. Same for the execs. There are plenty of people who will take there jobs and learn them. Then they need to Dump the mfg. of the non-money making auto's of all three brands and also look to the future with a line of more efficient auto's but I still think there is a market for some of the muscle cars and tow vehicles. They need to do this to remain profitable and competitive. They will have to close some plants down and some will lose their jobs but we cannot keep bailing out companies. Heck, I could use some help here but I have to do it the old fashion way....cut expenses. Bailing them out has been done once already and it did not work, apparently.

Right on :thumbsup2

No bailout, When did it become required of the government to make things right? GM, Ford, and Chrysler all made their beds, they should have to sleep in them. This is one point that you could never turn me. There is no reason that anyone should help them.

Exactly.

Although I really do feel for the average joe that would lose their job, I'm sick of it being so easy for big corporations to get help at the taxpayers expense. How 'bout getting rid of all the "executive fat" at the upper management levels and after that start cutting back on spending and tightening the belts?

I would like to know to whom do I address MY "bailout request" letter to, and when should I expect my check????? :confused3

[des1954]

What Big Kahuna said.

They made their beds, now let them sleep in it. After the Enron fiasco, aren't pensions supposed to be in protected accounts now?

An A.P. article published this last Monday said it is estimated that the price of every U.S. vehicle includes $1500.00 worth of just union wages and benefits. The article didn't dare go into what amount of the vehicle cost could be attributed to the exec's.

Greedy attitudes got the companies into this mess. They should have saved the money they robbed from the consumers so when their company went under they'd have something to live on.....not to further rob consumers by expecting bailouts with our tax dollars.

[Justin the Hook]

Right on :thumbsup2



Exactly.

Although I really do feel for the average joe that would lose their job, I'm sick of it being so easy for big corporations to get help at the taxpayers expense. How 'bout getting rid of all the "executive fat" at the upper management levels and after that start cutting back on spending and tightening the belts?

I would like to know to whom do I address MY "bailout request" letter to, and when should I expect my check????? :confused3


My bailout request will never be met. The government always forgets about the "working" middle class! Businesses close, middle class gets hurt. The Government socks money aside for programs, middle class gets hurt. We are the consumers and yet everyone always forgets that. We are the reason companies make money, we buy the products, we move the products to the stores, and in rare cases now we make the products. Yet we are also the ones that are going to be paying higher taxes because of this. So not only will you be paying your sales tax on your products, you will also be paying more money out of your middle class pay check to pay for these bailouts. I am tired of footing the bill for everyone.:mad:

[jugman]

It doesn't matter what I think anymore, because those great and mighty rulers ,that just got elected, are going to do what they want to anyway. We don't have leaders anymore, if anyone noticed, we have got a new ruler come Jan.

[auntie]

My husband and I watched the news two nights ago, about the banks..Citi and another who are contacting those that are behind on their mortgages about restructuring..and even reducing the loans if they are more than 38% of their income. We're lookin' at one another, and thinking...what about the regular Joe:confused3 ..who didn't get in over their head. Who said "no" we can't afford that. The ones like us..just pluggin' along, paying our mortgage. No one's giving us a break on anything. I don't hear my bank calling us up and thanking me for doing without and paying the mortgage. Nor should they. It just seems to me that the big wigs on Wall Street get a bail out..the folks that got in over their heads(and in my opinion..should have known better) they're getting a bail out. Us...regular folks... we foot the bill. :sad2:

[Mmketeer]

I say since we spent the money to bail out AIG (even though they didn't deserve it in my opinon), we should definitly bail out GM etc. How can we buy American and support American made products if we lose these great workforce industries like GM? Besides I have been waiting for almost 8 years for the new Camero to come out!!!

[4mickey2]

It all just stinks..
http://www.orangepopdesign.com/peppersworld/forums/style_emoticons/default/stinky.gif

[F4disneyfan]

There are so many jobs and pensions tied to the auto industry. It can't be a good thing to see GM go under. The government has thrown money away on the airline industry a couple of times. I have to think that bailing out the auto industry will save "Main Street" Americans their jobs. Of course I'd like to see a comphrensive plan..and how exactly the money would be spent. Do we even know how this Wall Street bail out is being parcelled out?
It doesn't seem fair to bail out Wall Street..but let the people of this country who build our automobiles fall by the way side. I'd also like to see a tarrif on imported autos, making them more expensive to buy. Giving the American auto maker an edge with American auto buyers. How about making it so that the parts for these auto's also have to be made in AMERICA.


The problem with all parts being made in America be it Canada or the US they all sub out parts to the lowest bidder for the most part so that would be impossible to have happen.

[F4disneyfan]

I say since we spent the money to bail out AIG (even though they didn't deserve it in my opinon), we should definitly bail out GM etc. How can we buy American and support American made products if we lose these great workforce industries like GM? Besides I have been waiting for almost 8 years for the new Camero to come out!!!

The new Camaro is going to be an awesome car and it is built in Oshawa Ontario in the Impala plant.

[MBMacs]

The only way I would support a Big 3 Bailout would be if the Upper management was all removed, the employees and the taxpayers became the owners, Unions gave concessions and they re format the current dealer model. Otherwise, may the best companies win. Treat them like they treated Tucker.

[auntie]

The problem with all parts being made in America be it Canada or the US they all sub out parts to the lowest bidder for the most part so that would be impossible to have happen.

Add to this..when you have your car repaired after a collision..some insurance companies will REFUSE to use original new parts in the repairs. Geico for instance insists that we use aftermarket parts.

[bigdisneydaddy]

The only way I would support a Big 3 Bailout would be if the Upper management was all removed, the employees and the taxpayers became the owners, Unions gave concessions and they re format the current dealer model. Otherwise, may the best companies win. Treat them like they treated Tucker.


The unions have given huge concessions for years. The plants are full of new employees that are not UAW and not covered under the UAW contracts.

The common misconception is that the UAW has not made concessions, the truth is that the UAW has conceeded itself into a looming extinction.

What GM has not done is funded their ongoing liability, one of the previous posters made a comment that they thought they were required to. While it should have happened, unfortunately it didnt. What GM has done is made promises to its employees (in an era where they had to just to get people to work there) and then not fund that obligation, hoping for some miracle to happen in the future, ala social security.
This is not to say that the UAW is full of choir boys. The UAW came to be because of the horrible working conditions that existed in the plants. They were unsafe deplorable working conditions. GM had a history of overzealous low level managers trying to make a name for themselves on the backs of the line workers.

I grew up in the shadow of GM, I have family and friends that are current and past GM workers, I dont know anyone who got rich working for GM. I do know plenty of people that busted their humps for a decent wage !


BTW Macs, thats not directed at you, I just used the points you made to illustrate the issue.
I have it form a good source that the Pontiac and Saturn division are both on the chopping block so your point about a dealer realignment may be a reality.

[Just Beachy]

I would like to know to whom do I address MY "bailout request" letter to, and when should I expect my check????? :confused3

President Obama, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC. Please, anyone who does this, let us know how that works out for ya, ok? Thanks! :rotfl2:

[F4disneyfan]

Add to this..when you have your car repaired after a collision..some insurance companies will REFUSE to use original new parts in the repairs. Geico for instance insists that we use aftermarket parts.

Wow that sucks our insurance insists they are all factory NEW replacement parts not ones found from the wreckers or aftermarket parts.

[LONE-STAR]

As long as somebody builds a 1 ton 4x4 solid axle diesel for me to buy. Then I wont worry. Which GM does not build. So as long as Ford or Dodge are around I am just fine.

[bord1niowa]

I know a large dealership in our area normally sells about 260 cars a month but last month sold 26. So yes, they are hurting, but I still don't think they should be bailed out. Car manufacturing is a business, just like any other. I also think that the unions have kept salaries higher than most in America which of course selfishly brings them more money. It's time they renegotiate ALL salaries from the top down and cut the fat. This is a global economy and if we can't be competitive, then find something else to manufacture as many other companies have done in the past. We just need to get that common sense back into the workplace instead of too many chiefs not making reasonable decisions, if they make any at all. No more of the "let's have a meeting to discuss when we will talk about thinking about doing something to maybe make things run better in the company." I've seen way too much of that!
Bailouts will never end if we give in to anyone asking for them.
Just mho.

[bradisgoofy]

..... The UAW came to be because of the horrible working conditions that existed in the plants. They were unsafe deplorable working conditions. GM had a history of overzealous low level managers trying to make a name for themselves on the backs of the line workers.

I grew up in the shadow of GM, I have family and friends that are current and past GM workers, I dont know anyone who got rich working for GM. I do know plenty of people that busted their humps for a decent wage !

Bravo Scott, someone needed to point this out. The unions MADE the middle class. If the big three go under, this will be the beginning of the end of the middle class, in Michigan at least.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a United Steelworker, and I work in a steelmill in Michigan where we make steel for the auto industry. Currently we are down to 32 hours a week, since just before Labor Day, down from 52 hours.

[DaddyDon]

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a United Steelworker, and I work in a steelmill in Michigan where we make steel for the auto industry. Currently we are down to 32 hours a week, since just before Labor Day, down from 52 hours.

Bradisgoofy
I feal your pain brother,I work in a non union tire plant,Our hours have been scaled back To 36hrs one week 24 the next.Its more than just one industry that gets hit! and believe me none of us made our bills working part time hours,i cant speak for you i do not budget a 1200 dollar a month loss in wages.I wonder where i can get the goverment to bail me out if this keeps going!!!!

[big kahuna1]

It doesn't matter what I think anymore, because those great and mighty rulers ,that just got elected, are going to do what they want to anyway. We don't have leaders anymore, if anyone noticed, we have got a new ruler come Jan.

He did say he was ready to rule over us after he was elected. Not govern, but RULE!:scared1:


What GM has not done is funded their ongoing liability, one of the previous posters made a comment that they thought they were required to. While it should have happened, unfortunately it didnt. What GM has done is made promises to its employees (in an era where they had to just to get people to work there) and then not fund that obligation, hoping for some miracle to happen in the future, ala social security.:thumbsup2

Yeah, but you forgot to mention this retirement funding is also a apart of the union contracts. The Union is not the sole cause of auto industry problems but unfortunately, the reality is they are a fairly big part of the problem. The working conditions excuse was over many, many, many years ago. But, I do not really blame the Union members themselves but the upper management of the Unions. Sometimes they just don't know when to fold the cards at the expense of the union members. Remember the Flight Tower employees? I'll bet they wish they did not follow the advice of their union bosses.

Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48


The prospect of concessions from the union came up during a meeting involving executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and Democratic Congressional lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made clear that concessions were out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires Friday.

Translation: Taxpayers are just supposed to accept the UAW-imposed cost structure as it exists, even though those being bailed out earn $44.60 an hour more in wages and benefits than other working families.

Like I said. If they do not want to re-negotiate...fire em'.

[ftwildernessguy]

Hey - I just got an email and my worries are over - I don't need to be in any government bailout. It seems some close friend of mine whom I don't remember was killed in a horrific automobile accident in Nigeria and has listed me as his only heir. I have to send an attorney my bank account number and SSN and he will transfer 20million dollars into my account. He is meeting me at the Newark airport this afternoon. See ya, suckers!!!!

[big kahuna1]

Hey - I just got an email and my worries are over - I don't need to be in any government bailout. It seems some close friend of mine whom I don't remember was killed in a horrific automobile accident in Nigeria and has listed me as his only heir. I have to send an attorney my bank account number and SSN and he will transfer 20million dollars into my account. He is meeting me at the Newark airport this afternoon. See ya, suckers!!!!

I have had that same friend die several times now. He must have 9 lives!!!:lmao:

[AuburnJen92]

I have had that same friend die several times now. He must have 9 lives!!!:lmao:

Maybe your friend is actually a cat and you just didn't notice...;) Anything is possible on the internet!:lmao:

[bigdisneydaddy]

He did say he was ready to rule over us after he was elected. Not govern, but RULE!:scared1:


:thumbsup2

Yeah, but you forgot to mention this retirement funding is also a apart of the union contracts. The Union is not the sole cause of auto industry problems but unfortunately, the reality is they are a fairly big part of the problem. The working conditions excuse was over many, many, many years ago. But, I do not really blame the Union members themselves but the upper management of the Unions. Sometimes they just don't know when to fold the cards at the expense of the union members. Remember the Flight Tower employees? I'll bet they wish they did not follow the advice of their union bosses.

Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48


The prospect of concessions from the union came up during a meeting involving executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and Democratic Congressional lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made clear that concessions were out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires Friday.

Translation: Taxpayers are just supposed to accept the UAW-imposed cost structure as it exists, even though those being bailed out earn $44.60 an hour more in wages and benefits than other working families.

Like I said. If they do not want to re-negotiate...fire em'.

We will have to agree to disagree Steve.

The cost numbers being tossed around are unsubstantiated. Any good statistician can make any numbers say what they want. You might be referring to the Teamsters when you suggest that the union has a hand in the operations of the pension system, to my knowledge the UAW does not at this point direct their retirees pensions.

Just for the record I am not in favor of the bailout.

[Boomer1]

As much as I hate opening a newspaper or turning on the evening news lately, I'm just waiting for one of the big oil companies to declare their in trouble and need to be bailed out.:happytv:

[des1954]

The unions have given huge concessions for years. The plants are full of new employees that are not UAW and not covered under the UAW contracts.

I thought Michigan was a "closed-shop" state??? How can the employees NOT be in a union if the plant works under the UAW contract?

I was IBEW for 30+ years at GTE (now Verizon). What pizzed me royally in my last two years of employment (and after the so called merger between GTE & Bell Atlantic) was this.... I was a service rep sitting in Fla making just under $20/hour. As part of my requirement I HAD to answer calls from the old Bell Atlantic region where the service reps made more than double what I made. The old B.A. reps were only able to take calls from their region & not even their entire state! The IBEW addressed this in a contract negotiation just before I retired - but - because Florida is an open-shop state, they got no where.

So my question Scott is this... Is Michigan no longer a closed shop state? When I lived in NYS, if the place you worked for had a union, you HAD to join the union the day you started working.

[bigdisneydaddy]

I thought Michigan was a "closed-shop" state??? How can the employees NOT be in a union if the plant works under the UAW contract?

I was IBEW for 30+ years at GTE (now Verizon). What pizzed me royally in my last two years of employment (and after the so called merger between GTE & Bell Atlantic) was this.... I was a service rep sitting in Fla making just under $20/hour. As part of my requirement I HAD to answer calls from the old Bell Atlantic region where the service reps made more than double what I made. The old B.A. reps were only able to take calls from their region & not even their entire state! The IBEW addressed this in a contract negotiation just before I retired - but - because Florida is an open-shop state, they got no where.

So my question Scott is this... Is Michigan no longer a closed shop state? When I lived in NYS, if the place you worked for had a union, you HAD to join the union the day you started working.


I will have to check but I do know several people that work alongside UAW employees that are not union, GM has used contract employees for many years. The common misconception in my union is that you have to belong, you do have the ability to opt out of the IAFF (inetrnational association of fire fighters) in our state, all it requires is one signature.
The IAFF (and others) is also not allowed to spend per capita dues on ANY political support, whatever money they spend has to come from their political action funds which is money donated specifically for that cause or through fund raisers.

[big kahuna1]

We will have to agree to disagree Steve.

Agreed.



Now The Hartford is going to purchase a bank to make themselves eligible for some of this bailout money.

We have all been snookered. I fear the same will happen with any future bailout of anyone or anything. Enough is enough!!! If they want to just throw away our tax dollars then throw back at us.

[bigdisneydaddy]

This whole bailout thing never should have gotten started in the first place, now its just gotten to the point where its ridiculous. I heard yesterday that citys are now asking for bailouts ?

I did just confirm also that GM administers their pension program not the UAW. Part of their legacy costs are also related to salary employees who are not UAW members.

GM did make changes to their health care plans and the UAW now administers that program.

[BRDof3]

Hey - I just got an email and my worries are over - I don't need to be in any government bailout. It seems some close friend of mine whom I don't remember was killed in a horrific automobile accident in Nigeria and has listed me as his only heir. I have to send an attorney my bank account number and SSN and he will transfer 20million dollars into my account. He is meeting me at the Newark airport this afternoon. See ya, suckers!!!!

Just keep your pants rolled up all the time. The sight of your beautiful knees will distract him, and he'll be putty during the negotiations! :banana:

[ntsammy5]

I did just confirm also that GM administers their pension program not the UAW.

If GM files CH 11 then the pension will become the responsibility of the The U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp which is already pretty close to insolvency. PBGC does not pay full pensions - there is a formula to figure that out. If GM files the BK Court can set aside all union contracts but
GM would not make it through restructuring without government intervention. If they file though, before any government programs, it will be very, very hard for retirees - even with a bailout things will never be the same for current/past employees.

The first thing that needs to be done is the Board of Directors, all senior executives and all UAW officers need to resign or be fired. They're all part of the problem.

[bigdisneydaddy]

If GM files CH 11 then the pension will become the responsibility of the The U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp which is already pretty close to insolvency. PBGC does not pay full pensions - there is a formula to figure that out. If GM files the BK Court can set aside all union contracts but
GM would not make it through restructuring without government intervention. If they file though, before any government programs, it will be very, very hard for retirees - even with a bailout things will never be the same for current/past employees.

The first thing that needs to be done is the Board of Directors, all senior executives and all UAW officers need to resign or be fired. They're all part of the problem.

I think that part of GM's plan is to shed the pension burden and throw it back on the american taxpayer. Its been done many times before.

[RvUsa]

I think that part of GM's plan is to shed the pension burden and throw it back on the american taxpayer. Its been done many times before.

Scott, don't let it sound like GM pays the pensions, what they have done, is used the money paid into the pension accounts by the workers. They "borrow" the money out of these accounts and then file for bankruptcy so they don't have to pay it back. It is kind of like legal robbery!

My family all worked for a steel company here locally, and when it started to loose money, they stole the pension accounts, and when they ran out, then they filed bankruptcy! Now 5 people in my family were faced with the pbgc, and what a joke that is. My dad worked for the company for 30+ yrs, paying into his pension. Secure in the fact that when he retired he could live comfortably on a budget he had made. Well with the tiny fraction of his original pension that he was planning on that the pbgc pays he had to completely replan his retirement.

The PBGC does the best it can, but these companies and their officers that steal the security and hard earned money are the ones that should be punished!!!

[Born 2 Fish]

Scott, don't let it sound like GM pays the pensions, what they have done, is used the money paid into the pension accounts by the workers. They "borrow" the money out of these accounts and then file for bankruptcy so they don't have to pay it back. It is kind of like legal robbery!

My family all worked for a steel company here locally, and when it started to loose money, they stole the pension accounts, and when they ran out, then they filed bankruptcy! Now 5 people in my family were faced with the pbgc, and what a joke that is. My dad worked for the company for 30+ yrs, paying into his pension. Secure in the fact that when he retired he could live comfortably on a budget he had made. Well with the tiny fraction of his original pension that he was planning on that the pbgc pays he had to completely replan his retirement.

The PBGC does the best it can, but these companies and their officers that steal the security and hard earned money are the ones that should be punished!!!

That just STINKS. :mad:

[jugman]

That sounds about right. The brillant ceo's that companies can't do without still end up bending over the WORKING CLASS. Notice I said WORKING CLASS. They/us are the one's that always get the shaft, while they walk away multi-millionaires, but I guess that just makes me envious.

[ntsammy5]

Richard Fuld, former CEO of Lehman Brothers, had total compensation of $500,000,000 between 2000 and the time they went bankrupt! The compenstation committee recommended $20,000,000 bonuses for 3 executives just days before filing bankruptcy.

What a bunch of lying, cheating, worthless SOBs. Hopefully these people will all get what's coming to them eventually

[bigdisneydaddy]

Scott, don't let it sound like GM pays the pensions, what they have done, is used the money paid into the pension accounts by the workers. They "borrow" the money out of these accounts and then file for bankruptcy so they don't have to pay it back. It is kind of like legal robbery!

My family all worked for a steel company here locally, and when it started to loose money, they stole the pension accounts, and when they ran out, then they filed bankruptcy! Now 5 people in my family were faced with the pbgc, and what a joke that is. My dad worked for the company for 30+ yrs, paying into his pension. Secure in the fact that when he retired he could live comfortably on a budget he had made. Well with the tiny fraction of his original pension that he was planning on that the pbgc pays he had to completely replan his retirement.

The PBGC does the best it can, but these companies and their officers that steal the security and hard earned money are the ones that should be punished!!!


Your example is what I was talking about.
The easy way out is to always blame the unions but the problem is much more complex than that and like I said before the UAW has made HUGE concessions for quite a while now, at some point there aint any meat left on the bones.

[RvUsa]

Your example is what I was talking about.
The easy way out is to always blame the unions but the problem is much more complex than that and like I said before the UAW has made HUGE concessions for quite a while now, at some point there aint any meat left on the bones.


Scott, it was exactly the same for my family, and most of the steel workers in our area. They gave back till they had nothing left to give, when they finally closed the plant, most of the men were making about $11 an hour after working there for more than 30 years. It has been the same for the Uaw I'm sure. It really makes me sad to think that some people blame the current problems of the automakers on the employees. The blame should be laid squarely on the feet of the management, and of the union leadership.

$20 million bonuses for one person who spends his days figuring out how to squander money, and where to take the next million dollar retreat, are the root of the problem. Managements feeling of entitlement at the cost the working person will ruin more than just the big 3, it killed the us steel industry last decade, what will be next?