Points on Cruise TOO High?

[deerh]

Hi all, been a while off the board, but, I got a copy of the 2003 cruise points, and WOW! Talk about High! The cat 6 went up 26 points on the 7 day cruise. I thought we were in a recession, and people were used to travel deals! Wow! The increase on this room was 8 points from 2001-2002, now 26 points. The reason I point this out is we are planning on going on the DCL cruise in 2004, cat 6, and I guestimated the points going up 11 or so points a year, and now this! Is there any explantion on this? I know the Disney cruise is a hot cruise, but at this rate, a cat 6 will be 263 points in 2004, 289 in 2005. This is outrageous, at least in my opinion. Any thoughts on this? By the way, all the other cat's went up as well, just not as much as cat 6 and cat 5 as well.
Deerh

[Rock'n Robin]

Well, all the cruises I was looking at for an option in 2003 went up, and we are either cat. 4 or 2 smaller rooms since we have 3 kids. I figure we'll just have to go in 2003 before it goes up much more (and in 2005 DD#1 will be 13 and cost MORE!) We are paying the piper because the cruise is such a hot deal, but there is no way I could afford one with cash, so this is what we get.
Robin M.

[mouseclick1]

We have cruised twice in the past two years, and are planning on going again in 2004. We were thinking we would do it on points, though now that I have seen the new point schedule I am almost sure we will do a cash cruise. Our boys will be 13 & 14 by then, and I really don't want to give up 3 years of points(well, almost) for 1 week! I think it's a shame that they have gone up so much as there are many now with smaller contracts who won't be able to cruise at all on points. I wouldn't even be totally against going on another cruise line, now that it is unlikely that we will go on points. Maybe we will get lucky and points will actually come down for 2004?? Yeah, right!

[CaptainMidnight]

Given the increase supply/reduced demand for travel, it does seem like the non-DVC resorts and cruises are sticking it to us DVC members a bit. These increased point values are certainly unwelcome. I agree, given the market conditions, they should decrease, not increase.

[OKWKirt]

CaptainMidnight -- I think it is because of the high supply and low demand that you will see the points increase for DCL and non-DVC resorts. DVC must obtain sufficeint points to rent DVC accomodations to pay for the DCL and other resorts. My guess is DVC is having a hard time renting our rooms to paying customers in order to pay for the DCL and other resorts traded for.

[vacationman]

We had planned to do the 7 day cruise next spring break but have now changed our plans. It is just too many points for me to justify. I am considering selling my points and paying cash for the cruise since I would only need about $6 a point to come out ahead.

Seems like it might be a good idea to spend the next year or two solely at the DVC resorts. The only realistic alternative is to catch one of the cruise point sales (like the one available for this September).

[DavidRoss]

I realize that the cruise is going up in points. I do remember however, I paid 152 points for a category 10 for 2 adults in early December of 1999. This was during value season and even back then it seems really high compared to recent years. To me it seems that DVC has slowly been moving toward that original point chart that first became available for us to use.

[Doctor P]

I think it is a function of relative supply and demand, also. I think things may settle down once the novelty of the cruise has worn off a bit, as well as when the demand for travel at higher prices returns.

[CaptainMidnight]

OKWKirt, interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way. Hopefully they will lower in the future as travel someday normalizes.

[penguins_fan]

Vacationman or others - what is the reference in your message to a September points sale on cruises - are ther lower point rates and is there a schedule of these rates? Do they apply for other low season months like January? Are the 2003 point rates posted somewhere? Thanks!

[newarknut]

I had always said that I bought points to use them. However, I think the next cruise I take will be cash! It would be hard to justify all those points for a weeks vacation. For the same amount, my family could stay for 2+ weeks in a one bedroom!

It is too bad that the points chart is not more favorable to us DVC members. However, I do understand supply and demand and I'm alright with the reality of the situation.

Newarknut

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by penguins_fan
......Are the 2003 point rates posted somewhere? Thanks!

The 2003 point chart for the DCL is posted on the Members' website.

[slc224]

I agree with you OKWKirt. Your point makes perfect sense to me.

[BigLou]

Try to justify your point cost if you include 4 or 5 meals a day, a trip to a private Disney-owned beach, 1st class entertainment, and waking up in a new location every day of the week. It makes it a little easier.

[erikthewise]

No one is questioning the value of the cruise, they're questioning the cost.

If one can (in principle) sell one's points, pay cash, and come out way ahead, then something is amiss. If DVC members using points at non-DVC Disney properties and DCL cruises are effectively asked to pay rack rates and higher (as they are in the 2002 charts), then DVC members are treated worse than the general public, who may stumble into a more attractive rate. You won't.

If prospective members (such as myself) figure out that the point charts effectively mean that they are persona non grata at non-DVC properties, that is going to cost DVC some sales. It very likely will cost them mine.

[EROS]

I choose to value our DVC points at around $5.50 each rather than the "rental" price of $10. In that regard, I still find DCL to be cheaper with points than paying cash;) ;) ;) ;) .......

[deerh]

No one is questioning the value of the cruise, they're questioning the cost.

If one can (in principle) sell one's points, pay cash, and come out way ahead, then something is amiss.

Erik, I agree! I called on the 7 day cruise eastern for 2003, 2004 is not out yet, and got a quote for cat 6 for 2 adults, 2 kids as $5641. This is from DCL, and not a discount travel agent. Now, I know you can get SOME discount, but as posters say, the Disney Cruise is HOT now, not much discount out there! If the $10 per point is true, you must have 564 points. Now, a cat 6 costs 237+237+ 96+122 for children. I know, cash is an option. That is 692 points. So, there IS a BIG difference there. So, selling my 564 points at $10, I can go on a DCL cruise, or shell out 692 points. To me this is a huge difference. Just thought the dis board should know this. So, as to say they are overpriced on the points is an understatement!!!!
deerh

[CaptainMidnight]

erikthewise and deerh, you both make great points. The number of points required for the cruise is too high compared to the cash value in the examples and statements you provide. Thank you for making the case.

[mle]

I agree with EROS on this. I know that I am a newbie here, but I think I grasp "numbers" pretty good.

I've been reading the posts over the past month and in many of the threads everyone is pointing out that DVC should not be looked at as an investment vehicle, you are prepaying your vacations, locking in todays prices, etc., etc. Yet, in other threads, there is a predominent "value" assigned to the points of $10 each. Wherein, the way I look at it, the current "value" of a point bought today at BCV is $5.69 ($75 divided by 39 years is $1.92, plus $3.77 in dues per point). Many of you bought your points for even less than $75 and will have received more than 39 years of use from them, so your "value" per point is even less. Just because non-DVCers are willing to rent them for $10, that does not mean that Disney values them at the price.

I look at it like a collectible coin, for example, the statehood quarters. A regular statehood quarter, that anyone could receive today as change, might be valued at 50 cents or more to a collector (depending on certain factors, of course). Yet to a non-collector, to a merchant or to a bank or even the Mint itself, the value is only 25 cents, no more no less.

So back to DCL on points. According to the numbers, you are actually getting a discount when booking using points. From the Disney website, the cost of a category 5 stateroom for two adults and two children (12 and under), setting sail on the Magic on 07/19/03 (western), is a whooping $6,011.08 (under their "Early Booking Savings" nonetheless). The total DVC points for the same booking is 740 point (260 per adult and 110 per child). The total current dollar value of the points would be $4,210.60 (740 X $5.69). This is a savings of about 30% off the cash price! The savings on a cruise on 04/19/03 (eastern) is about 24%. Let me tell you, when I was pricing a cruise for this past Jan, I couldn't even look at the pricing for a Disney cruise.

I think the real debate here is not "points on a cruise too high?" but rather, cost of a Disney cruise too high? My answer is yes! As someone posted earlier, Disney rarely offers discounts on DCL. I have never been on a Disney Cruise so I don't know what they do differently from other cruise lines or what better amenities or facilities they have compared to others. But I know that my recent cruise with Royal Caribbean was about $1700 less than a DCL during the same week in similar accomodations (two twins converted to a queen, full (queen?) sized sofabed, private balcony, etc.). After 9/11, Royal even reduced my reservation by another $500! This was on the Voyager class ship, the one with the rock wall, skating rink, mini golf, etc. I will definately have to go on DCL sometime or do more research to see what other people's $6,000+ is getting them.

Even the "cost" of a hotel room is discounted by using points. Yesterday I booked part of my complimentary stay incentive. I chose three nights at the Polynesian (I need to discover the allure of this resort for myself). However I will be at WDW for four nights. Rack rate for Oct (Regular season) is $334 per night PLUS the 11% tax ($371). The Disney Club rate, the only discount that I have available to me right now, is $283, with the tax it is $314. If I were to use 35 DVC points, the room rate works out to be $199, based on my current point cost. That's a discount of over 45%.

Those 35 points cost me $199 no matter which way you look at it. Yet I am going to pay $314 for that additional hotel night. I will do that because I, like that rest of you, have bought those points as part of a bigger commitment with Disney. Converting my money into points gives me more value for my money when using the points within DVC. In the world outside of DVC, points get converted back to cash where one dollar equals one dollar. I am not going to use my points for the Polynesian room because my points have their greatest value when used for the DVC resorts.

Isn't that the whole point of the Disney Vacation Club?

With that said, I am calling it a night. I think I really need that vacation NOW (3 more days, woo hoo!).

[Maistre Gracey]

I understand both resons/methods for calculating point value.

I do not think it is this clear cut. Once you start trying to figure lost interest income for x amount of years, it gets complicated. Perhaps even more so if you choose to finance. Also, if you finance, there are the possible tax implications (good implications).

My solution:
I bought it, I am extremely happy I did. I will use as many of my points as possible over the next 40 years. I will pay my annual fees. I will enjoy DVC, and not worry about comparing it to cash prices!:)

[CaptainMidnight]

Wasn't there an increase in point required for a cuise with the new 2003 point schedule? Isn't that the real issue?

[gscott8075]

I have commented on this subject many times in the past.

I think what we are seeing year after year is the huge benefit of owning a DVC resort - that that point structure will not change in the 5 oops - 6 resorts. The 9-12 points it took to rent an OKW studio 5 years ago will not change 10 years from now.

We bought DVC to lock in our vacation costs. As we all know, however, only the DVC resorts are locked in. Each year, the costs of staying at Disney Hotels and the cruise have increased at a rapid clip. In retrospect, does anyone really think Disney thought that DVC would take off as it has? OKW used to be called the Disney Vacation Club - because there was only going to be one! In the beginning, people paid around $50 pp for 50 years. Next week, people will shell out $80 pp for 40 years!

The value of the point argument has many different angles. DVC trip insurance values it at $5.50. Others have given us the math divided out cash outlays over the remaining term.

The "value" of a point really can't be dictated by how much you paid for it. To wit..

If I bought a house for $200,000 eight years ago and it is now appraised at $300,000, what is the value of the house? $300,000!

If I bought a car 5 years ago for $20,000 and the blue book value is $5000, what's the value of the car? 5000 - what I paid is not relevant.

If a studio at OKW is 11 points and the rack rate for the room is $200 - does that make the value of the point $18? To me it is, however, I cannot translate the $18 into cash or use it to pay for the cruise. I do not think anyone argues that the best value for points is to use them at a DVC resort. But, if I do not want to stay at a DVC resort, this comparison offers no value except to make the case that the points should be saved.

If the value of my points on the open rental market is $9 - $10, then that's the value of a point. I can receive cash to pay for the cruise - or any other vacation option.

In my case, we used 370 points for 2 adults in June Cat 8. We paid cash for the kids. The kids rate was $200 less through DVC than through DCL. In the end, it was $5000 cash or 370 points and $1300. In this case, it was valued properly so we did it this way.

As far as the cost of the cruise - DCL is charging what the market will bear. WDW hotels cost more than other Orlando hotels. Food and park admission is higher than other parks. Prices will escalate as long as they are selling out.
is $6000 for a trip ridiculous? Absolutely. Try pricing other inclusive trips - dude ranches, etc - you will be amazed at the prices. We have found the cruise to be the best vacation we have ever taken - I know what to expect and DCL typically exceeds it every time.

I guess the sum of my comments is this - if you bought DVC for vacations and you do not have the money or do not want to use money to pay for a cruise - then use the points. You bought DVC to give yourself quality vacations. Go for it.

If the money is not the issue, then take the time to compare. I did not expect to use points for the cruise - but in my case, it paid to do so. Look at all of your options and then have the trip of a lifetime!

[OKWKirt]

I think mle and gscott8075 has said it best. Some have lost the fact that we purchased DVC to have wonderful vacations at our resorts at WDW, VB, and HH. Everything else is an extra benefit that can come or go over the years. Anyone who thinks DVC will lose potential members because these trades cost too many points has definitely lost the reason to belong. I think it is great that members can get $10 per point when renting them but don't put that out of perspective when comparing to using the points at non-DVC accompdations.