Universal Handles Accommodation MUCH Better Than Disney

[JLTraveling]

MODERATOR NOTE: I removed the name of the CM that was mentioned here.
Since PI is now closed, no one is going to running into the same situation/same person there. Having the name is important for the OP to be able to report their experiences, but not pertinent for any other reason. I have removed the name (a common first name, but the way), just so people don't begin to look for people with that first name.

OK, I know I'm going to get flamed here. But I think the folks on this board have a right to know of our experiences this evening.

As I'm sure you know, tonight was the last night of operations for Pleasure Island. As we were there on opening night in 1989, it seemed appropriate to be there for the last night. Our party of two consisted of myself and my chronically ill father. Without getting into too many details on his conditions, he uses an ECV and has a prescription stating that he requires a companion to assist with his care.

We knew that it would be a madhouse, but expected to receive reasonable accommodation nonetheless. We arrived at the Adventurer's Club at approximately 6:30 pm for a 7:00 pm opening. There was a line of people waiting on the steps.

The disabled entrance is on the left as you face the building, so we went to that entrance. A Cast Member soon approached us and asked if the rest of our party was waiting in line. We explained that we were a party of two, and that Dad could not be left alone. We were told that it would be unfair to the other guests in line for us to receive immediate entry. We expressed that we were perfectly willing to wait our turn (we do have a GAC for the parks, but we understand that it doesn't work at PI). However, I would be unable to leave Dad in order to go wait in line (his illness is volatile and unpredictable, and he sometimes takes a rather sudden turn for the worse).

The Cast Member told us to wait while he worked something out for us. A few minutes later, we were approached by S.[name removed], who introduced himself as the Operations Manager for PI. "Goon" would be more accurate.

Adopting threatening body language and a smug, dismissive tone, S.[name removed] informed us that our only option was for me to leave Dad sitting on the ramp and go stand in line. He also said that the wait would be several hours, possibly all night. When I reiterated to S.[name removed] that we were willing to wait, but that I could not leave Dad alone for that time frame, he told Dad that if he needed anything he could wave down a Cast Member to go get me! He told me straight out that this wasn't Disney policy, it was his policy, and that it would be enforced at the Comedy Warehouse as well. Honestly, would you leave your own father alone, at the mercy of S.[name removed] and his goon squad? What would have happened if Dad was in a wheelchair and required a "pusher?" What would S.[name removed] have done if someone in a wheelchair had arrived solo? Regardless, there was a finality in S.[name removed] tone that made us realize it was pointless to argue.

We had enough. We told S.[name removed] we wanted our money back, and he was all too eager to escort us out of the park. The apologetic guy at Guest Relations gave me the email address for higher management, whom I plan to contact.

In the meantime, rather than waste the evening, we decided to head over to Universal for Halloween Horror Nights. Our first stop was Guest Services to pick up our GAP passes (equivalent of a GAC). I also put in a positive comment for the way that disabilities are handled at Universal, and explained the situation we had just encountered at Disney. The process was simple and quick, and the team members were as terrific and friendly as could be.

Throughout the evening, we were treated outstandingly by everyone from attractions attendants to custodial staff. In addition, the Guest Services Manager sought us out in the park. She had heard about our experiences, and wanted to make sure that we were having a good time. I was highly impressed, and have never had any sort of experience like that at Disney. Nor have I ever had such a horrid experience at Universal.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I have worked for both parks. We have been annual passholders to both parks for years, though our Disney passes are expired and we're now seriously questioning whether to renew. We've had our share of run-ins and difficulties with employees at both parks, and we understand a bad day.

What made this different, and so serious, in our minds is that S.[name removed] is an Operations Manager. He's the last word at PI before upper management. When we have had problems before, it has been with a lower level employee and management has entered the situation with the intent to resolve. S.[name removed] entered the situation with the intent to bully and intimidate.

Go ahead, flame away. *Dons flame-proof suit*

[bookwormde]

Sounds like you just ran into a really bad apple. Please take the time to write management and follow up about this person with his full name attached (if not his position should help anyway). With the closing he is loosing his current position anyway, but hopefully this will keep him from inflicting this type of inappropriate authority at WDW in the future.

With the Universal facilities having been built after 1992 they probably have better structural accommodations built into them than PI had. What ever is built in place should be “state of the art” in disability accommodations.

bookwormde

[dclfun]

I don't see any reason why someone would flame you for reporting your experience at PI. I'd heard that they weren't accommodating "regular" guests who normally use backdoor entrance due to disabilities at CW but this sounds like a really poor response since you stated several times you were willing to wait, but needed to wait with your father. I'm glad the evening turned out well at Universal- we also had a really positive experience with their GS although I still couldn't experience many attractions in their parks. A caring and understanding attitude and the willingness to work with a guest to make a positive experience goes a long way IMO.---Kathy

[Cheshire Figment]

I have known people who were actually Security who would introduce themselves as Operations Managers.

Years ago at MK when it was announced that Mr. Toad would be closing and there were quiet protests there were always some people observing who, when asked, said they were operations managers for Fantasyland.

It is unfortunate but you probably got a Security Officer who was out of his element and not an actual manager. And at the time was probably under a lot of pressure. But sending a letter to Disney with name, date, time and location would probably lead to his being counseled.

[mechurchlady]

What is sad is that they wanted a disabled person to set alone off away from the crowd to wait. What if the person was in a wheelchair and had to be pushed? It is very upsetting when people are treated as second class people who are put in a corner alone. I wonder if any laws or Disney rules were broken. Kongaloosh

[SueM in MN]

I agree with Cheshire Figment; what you probably got was a Security person saying he was in charge. And, he may have been telling the truth - he may have been a manager for Security.
As the others said, that doesn't excuse his actions and a good description along with date and time should get results. There are other ways they could have done things that would have been appropriate - for example, figuring out somehow where you would be in the regular line and putting some kind of 'marker' that would alert the CMs letting people in that you were in a sort of 'alternate line' and should be called. It would not take a lot of creativity to come up with a solution that would be a reasonable accommodation for the needs. Or writing up some type of return time pass (kind of like a Fastpass); they have done that for attractions, so I can't see why it would not work. I'm sure that being the last night did not help matters, but that was their problem to deal with, not yours.

As for Universal, as someone pointed out, since that park was built much after PI, MK or Epcot, they do have better ability to provide accommodations. I do know though, that there are people who have had bad experiences at Universal too, our family included.
Our experiences were a long time ago, but left a bad enough set of feelings that we have not been back to Universal. My DD uses a wheelchair because she can't walk, but she has additional needs that make waiting in line difficult. We were not asking to be let right in and would have even had part of our party wait in line and part wait with her if they could give an alternate place to wait outside of the line, or at least out of the sun. The answer we got over and over was "Our lines are wheelchair accessible and meet the ADA guidelines for accessibility. We are not obligated to provide anything more than that."
I do know that they have added "family waiting rooms" for some attractions since then, and that people since our experience have reported some good experiences there. Maybe some day we will return, but since most attractions there are not accessible/appropriate to her needs anyway, we have no overwhelming interest in going back.

[Hook's Girl]

Actually the person you spoke with is in fact in charge of all operations at Downtown Disney. I'm sorry you had a bad encounter with him.

On the flip side my encounters with this Cast Member have been nothing but positive and he has actually helped further my career at Disney. I have never felt intimidated and he always smiles at me. He is a very experienced Cast Member who has been working for the themepark division (in both California and Florida) for many years. He will be in upper management one day. This was certainly not a Security host.

[AJKMOM]

Actually the person you spoke with is in fact in charge of all operations at Downtown Disney. I'm sorry you had a bad encounter with him.

On the flip side my encounters with this Cast Member have been nothing but positive and he has actually helped further my career at Disney. I have never felt intimidated and he always smiles at me. He is a very experienced Cast Member who has been working for the themepark division (in both California and Florida) for many years. He will be in upper management one day. This was certainly not a Security host.

Sounds like he wasn't a very good representative of Disney hospitallity, either! In all our trips to WDW with our autistic son, we have never encountered rudeness of any kind, that's why we keep going back. I'm glad I was never a fan of PI, because I would have hated running into S. He sounds like someone I would make sure to complain about. If he is, in fact, headed up the Disney management ladder, I hope he gets counseling to understand there are all kinds of people that pay money to vacation with Disney, even those with disabilities.

[BillSears]

I'm very sorry to hear that you didn't get to see the AC on it's final night. It would have been wonderful for you to attend both the first and last nights and it's a shame that it didn't work out for you.

It's a little late but I would have handled it this way...I would have gotten in line with my Father and then when the line reached the bottom of the steps he could have used the ramp while you walked up the steps. Or if needed you could talk to those around you and asked for them to hold your place in line while you both used the ramp.

I'm sure last night was a very emotional night for the guests and the CMs at Pleasure Island. This combination probably caused many instances where people bounced raw emotions off of each other creating both good and bad experiences. I'm sorry that your experience turned into one of the bad ones.

[SueM in MN]

I'm very sorry to hear that you didn't get to see the AC on it's final night. It would have been wonderful for you to attend both the first and last nights and it's a shame that it didn't work out for you.

It's a little late but I would have handled it this way...I would have gotten in line with my Father and then when the line reached the bottom of the steps he could have used the ramp while you walked up the steps. Or if needed you could talk to those around you and asked for them to hold your place in line while you both used the ramp.

I'm sure last night was a very emotional night for the guests and the CMs at Pleasure Island. This combination probably caused many instances where people bounced raw emotions off of each other creating both good and bad experiences. I'm sorry that your experience turned into one of the bad ones.
That would seem to be a very reasonable accommodation.
Sorry things did not work out for the OP.

I do think you are right with the emotions getting the better of people.

[merryweather20]

Actually the person you spoke with is in fact in charge of all operations at Downtown Disney. I'm sorry you had a bad encounter with him.

On the flip side my encounters with this Cast Member have been nothing but positive and he has actually helped further my career at Disney. I have never felt intimidated and he always smiles at me. He is a very experienced Cast Member who has been working for the themepark division (in both California and Florida) for many years. He will be in upper management one day. This was certainly not a Security host.

I'm not sure where you are seeing the upper management potential here. Beyond the obvious customer service problem, S took on a rather substantial liability in saying that a CM would be availabe, to grab his son in the event of an emergency. Such a risky person would not last long in my business thats for sure.

[JLTraveling]

I'm very sorry to hear that you didn't get to see the AC on it's final night. It would have been wonderful for you to attend both the first and last nights and it's a shame that it didn't work out for you.

It's a little late but I would have handled it this way...I would have gotten in line with my Father and then when the line reached the bottom of the steps he could have used the ramp while you walked up the steps. Or if needed you could talk to those around you and asked for them to hold your place in line while you both used the ramp.

I'm sure last night was a very emotional night for the guests and the CMs at Pleasure Island. This combination probably caused many instances where people bounced raw emotions off of each other creating both good and bad experiences. I'm sorry that your experience turned into one of the bad ones.

That certainly would have been an option, and it's too bad we didn't think of it on the spot. We did come up with several solutions, including the written Fastpass-style document, as well as handing the last person in line some sort of marker (you know those wait time things they send through the attraction queues? Something like that), so that the CMs would know when to send us in. S. was not amenable to anything like that.

Part of the problem was that the line was ON the steps. Had there been a line TO the steps, we could have waited together. But they were letting in one or two people at a time, and those on the steps were literally waiting for hours (we had watched the process on Wednesday night, when we were there for a movie, and decided not to go then).

To Hook's Girl: I'm glad this person helped out your career, but he leaves a LOT to be desired in guest service. I think he may have slipped through the cracks with that attitude, and as someone else pointed out, he's a liability issue waiting to happen. The first time something serious happens to someone on his watch, that fast track to upper management is going to end. Just my opinion, of course.

Thanks to all for the support. I will be composing my letter to Disney this evening, and I will let you know if I get any results.

[Cheshire Figment]

Follow - up

Today I was at a convention planning meeting and one of the other people at the meeting went to AC last night. He told us he got in line at 8:45 and did not get into the club until 12:45am, a four hour wait. He said they finally threw everyone out at 2:00.

[Talking Hands]

I knew that the last weekend would be a madhouse and it is precisely why I went for my last time 2 weeks before. Since I use a wheelchair and require sign language interpreting I was not going to even try to go the last weekend. They were absolutely marvelous to me and I was treated like a queen by both the PI manager and managers at CW and AC.
Btw it was so crowded at AC that I waited upstairs and watched the goings on from the balcony and several of the club members came up and said hi.

[dclfun]

I have a dear friend who visits CW every time she's at WDW which is at least 6 times or more a year along with a local guest who had always used the back door access due to a disability that isn't apparent. They both visited CW on the last night, arriving separately. They were also separated in line with the one guest having to sit and wait on a park bench while the other stood in the line. It worked out okay for them but it sounds like the "line" situations which were quite long and stressful were being handled the same way at both clubs. Apparently due to the crowds, backdoor access ( which used to let disabled guests in first due to the stairs) was done away with a few weeks ago. Those who were waiting for the next show at CW in the "accessible" area were supposed to be let in first since they'd been waiting just as long as others...only they were waiting on a bench or in a special area. I guess there's no real "legal" problem with separating adults although when there's a medical issue involved, it seems like for the OP there should've been a different solution.---Kathy

[bookwormde]

Accommodations that separate disabled individuals from family, caregivers or friends for other than brief periods have never been acceptable under ADA interpretations since it is not an equivalent experience to other guests not to mention hazardous for those who need monitoring or assistance. When there is a larger group, splitting has been acceptable where practicality limits the ability for the group to stay together but the disabled individual is never isolated.

Who ever made up this procedure obviously was not properly trained to do so and did not have it reviewed by the department at WDW, which handles these issues. If this was not a “rouge” activity it is just really poor management.

bookwormde

[JLTraveling]

Follow Up: I received a brief email from Guest Communications this morning, requesting my phone number. Dad and I will be talking to them on speaker phone, and I will let you know what happens.

Thanks for all the support!!

[Hook's Girl]

Follow - up

Today I was at a convention planning meeting and one of the other people at the meeting went to AC last night. He told us he got in line at 8:45 and did not get into the club until 12:45am, a four hour wait. He said they finally threw everyone out at 2:00.

People were lining up at 8:00 in the morning!! Wow!

[kaytieeldr]

I am not defending Disney or arguing with the OP, but last weekend WAS "unique" at Pleasure Island.

Yes, the first Guest for Adventurers Club Saturday was in line at 7:55 AM. When I got to Guest Relations about 6:45 that night to buy my ticket (which, by the way, has a disclaimer on the back indicating it is not valid on 12/31, nothing about all the nights between now and then), Adventurers Club was already at capacity. I didn't even try to enter - understandable, since my ultimate goal was to see the VERY last Comedy Warehouse show, the same goal as one of the friends Kathy describes.

Anyway, we did go Friday night. One friend and I were allowed to use the ramp before the first show. We made sure to note who we would have been behind in the regular/stair line - but there were probably only thirty people in line at the time. Keeping track this was would have likely been close to impossible for the OP and his dad, and there's no guarantee that the people they would be 'virtually' behind would remember. The line would have been SO long, nobody joining afterwards would be aware there was technically another party ahead of them.

We left to meet some people at a restaurant, and got back to Pleasure Island around 10. Two of them went to one of the dance clubs, and the other three of us were back in line by 10:25. This time, all on our own, without any input from any CM, we split up - me up the ramp, them in line, so there was NO question when it would be my turn to enter.

The Cast Members were updating the crowd count every fifteen minutes - it's just that nobody was leaving, and this wasn't even the last night. We finally got into the building and downstairs, after the third-to-last show had started - and got in to the next-to-last show on the next-to-last night.

One big problem is, the AC used to exit Guests to the outside and require you to come back in through the front entrance to see another show. At some point this was changed, and Guests could simply exit into the hallway by the restrooms then go right back into the bar and get in for the next show. With few people leaving the building, an equal few could be allowed to enter.

While it's good that the OP is so positively impressed with Universal's treatment and concern, it's not really a valid comparison. It's sort of like comparing apples and pears. Pleasure Island wasn't a theme park. Disney's theme parks are, for the most part (certain CMs excepted) wonderful to otherly-abled Guests. And comparing PI to CityWalk also wouldn't be accurate, given that CityWalk isn't the same set-up that PI was. A more reasonable comparison would be Pleasure Island and Church Street Station.

[merryweather20]

I am not defending Disney or arguing with the OP, but last weekend WAS "unique" at Pleasure Island.

Yes, the first Guest for Adventurers Club Saturday was in line at 7:55 AM. When I got to Guest Relations about 6:45 that night to buy my ticket (which, by the way, has a disclaimer on the back indicating it is not valid on 12/31, nothing about all the nights between now and then), Adventurers Club was already at capacity. I didn't even try to enter - understandable, since my ultimate goal was to see the VERY last Comedy Warehouse show, the same goal as one of the friends Kathy describes.

Anyway, we did go Friday night. One friend and I were allowed to use the ramp before the first show. We made sure to note who we would have been behind in the regular/stair line - but there were probably only thirty people in line at the time. Keeping track this was would have likely been close to impossible for the OP and his dad, and there's no guarantee that the people they would be 'virtually' behind would remember. The line would have been SO long, nobody joining afterwards would be aware there was technically another party ahead of them.

We left to meet some people at a restaurant, and got back to Pleasure Island around 10. Two of them went to one of the dance clubs, and the other three of us were back in line by 10:25. This time, all on our own, without any input from any CM, we split up - me up the ramp, them in line, so there was NO question when it would be my turn to enter.

The Cast Members were updating the crowd count every fifteen minutes - it's just that nobody was leaving, and this wasn't even the last night. We finally got into the building and downstairs, after the third-to-last show had started - and got in to the next-to-last show on the next-to-last night.

One big problem is, the AC used to exit Guests to the outside and require you to come back in through the front entrance to see another show. At some point this was changed, and Guests could simply exit into the hallway by the restrooms then go right back into the bar and get in for the next show. With few people leaving the building, an equal few could be allowed to enter.

While it's good that the OP is so positively impressed with Universal's treatment and concern, it's not really a valid comparison. It's sort of like comparing apples and pears. Pleasure Island wasn't a theme park. Disney's theme parks are, for the most part (certain CMs excepted) wonderful to otherly-abled Guests. And comparing PI to CityWalk also wouldn't be accurate, given that CityWalk isn't the same set-up that PI was. A more reasonable comparison would be Pleasure Island and Church Street Station.

Maybe you misunderstood the OP's post he simply wanted to wait with his Dad... nothing fancy.:confused: There's no reason someone should have to wait in line by themselves just because they use a wheel-chair, even without a safety concern (like the OP had).

[kaytieeldr]

No, I didn't misunderstand.

If there are thirty people in line, it is relatively easy to keep track of one's turn to enter the establishment - you can see and probably talk to the person who would be ahead of you.

If there are three HUNDRED people in that same line, the only way to keep track of when it it your turn to enter the establishment is to actually have somebody in line holding your place.

Say you were to choose the "I'm right behind them" method of tracking your turn. Then at some point "they" choose to exit the line. NOW how do you establish when it's your turn?

[merryweather20]

No, I didn't misunderstand.

If there are thirty people in line, it is relatively easy to keep track of one's turn to enter the establishment - you can see and probably talk to the person who would be ahead of you.

If there are three HUNDRED people in that same line, the only way to keep track of when it it your turn to enter the establishment is to actually have somebody in line holding your place.

Say you were to choose the "I'm right behind them" method of tracking your turn. Then at some point "they" choose to exit the line. NOW how do you establish when it's your turn?


Goodness! This would be exceedingly easy! Heck if I just ask what one of my clubbing friends what the wait would be from x place they'd have no trouble telling me, never mind the club owners. This isn't PI's first busy day.
Even if it was, as other posters suggested it would be extremely simple to give someone in line a tag to time their entrance. It was PI's choice not to make the regular line accessible, so they are also charged with the simple task of providing equal access to patrons who cannot use it. It ain't rocket science.

Even in your example the person exiting the line would have people standing directly in front of them and directly behind them. PI had any number of simple easy options.

[BillSears]

Goodness! This would be exceedingly easy! Heck if I just ask what one of my clubbing friends what the wait would be from x place they'd have no trouble telling me, never mind the club owners. This isn't PI's first busy day.
Even if it was, as other posters suggested it would be extremely simple to give someone in line a tag to time their entrance. It was PI's choice not to make the regular line accessible, so they are also charged with the simple task of providing equal access to patrons who cannot use it. It ain't rocket science.

Even in your example the person exiting the line would have people standing directly in front of them and directly behind them. PI had any number of simple easy options.

The problem is that this was the last night that the Adventurers Club was open. There was no president for this. I'm sure there were many people who got in line and were not allowed to enter the AC due to people getting there very early(some as early as 8:00 AM) and them not leaving the club. Plus the only spot that seemed to not be accessible was the stairs themselves just before you enter the club.

Today I was at a convention planning meeting and one of the other people at the meeting went to AC last night. He told us he got in line at 8:45 and did not get into the club until 12:45am, a four hour wait. He said they finally threw everyone out at 2:00.

Based on this it might have been reasonable to give a pass for admittance 4 hours later then when they arrived. On the other hand maybe it would have been longer or shorter, who really knows.

[merryweather20]

The problem is that this was the last night that the Adventurers Club was open. There was no president for this. I'm sure there were many people who got in line and were not allowed to enter the AC due to people getting there very early(some as early as 8:00 AM) and them not leaving the club. Plus the only spot that seemed to not be accessible was the stairs themselves just before you enter the club.



The precedent would have been other much busier nights such as New Year's Eve.

I'm not sure why you think they shouldn't have been allowed to wait at 6:30. Cheshire Figment's post (which you quoted) stated that there was a 4 hour wait for people joining the line at 8:45pm an hour and a 1/4 later than the OP joined the line.:confused:

[kaytieeldr]

Not really. Pleasure Island celebrated New Year's Eve EVERY night for many years, and every actual New Year's Eve from when the format changed through 12/31/07.

Limited tickets were sold for that event (note again that even now, a notation exists on the PI tickets stating they are not valid 12/31).

Pleasure Island, and so Adventurers Club, closed for good ONCE - ergo, no precedent.

And if you give a marker to some random person in line, and that person chooses to forget about it, or lose it, or pass it backwards in the evergrowing line, or leaves the line with it - then what becomes of the Guest(s) relying on that marker to indicate it's their turn to enter?

[merryweather20]

Not really. Pleasure Island celebrated New Year's Eve EVERY night for many years, and every actual New Year's Eve from when the format changed through 12/31/07.

Limited tickets were sold for that event (note again that even now, a notation exists on the PI tickets stating they are not valid 12/31).

Pleasure Island, and so Adventurers Club, closed for good ONCE - ergo, no precedent.

And if you give a marker to some random person in line, and that person chooses to forget about it, or lose it, or pass it backwards in the evergrowing line, or leaves the line with it - then what becomes of the Guest(s) relying on that marker to indicate it's their turn to enter?

Sorry you are not going to convince me that queueing is rocket science, nor are you going to convince me that Disney can't do queuing.

Based on the figures provided (only a 4hour wait) they've certainly been much much busier on New Year's eve, not to mention other days. So yep all those other busy days would indeed be a precedent.

As I said before if someone leaves the line they will have people ahead of and behind them (Some with brightly coloured shirts :scared1: ). Not only that, PI could use any method to provide equal access, they're not locked in to giving a marker to someone in line. That was just one simple suggestion from the other posters. PI could use any method they want to make access equal for all. The only option they didn't have was denying access to someone only because they were in a wheel-chair.

[SueM in MN]

Based on the figures provided (only a 4hour wait) they've certainly been much much busier on New Year's eve, not to mention other days.
Just for clarification, I don't think the 4 hour wait was known ahead of time. I think it was reported to be 4 hours after people were talking about what had happened.

[kaytieeldr]

Sorry you are not going to convince me that queueing is rocket science, nor are you going to convince me that Disney can't do queuing. Of course they can. Now, can you name any other attraction at Walt Disney World where (a) there is no precedent for the entire attraction area closing permanently; (b) it is the last possible day/night ever to visit that attraction; and (c) there is no way or intent to force people to leave the building?

If you are allowing Guests already in the building to remain in the building as long as they want - up to eight hours in this case - and you have a maximum capacity, and a line of 400 people waiting to enter the building from the moment it reaches capacity until it closes for good, how do you allow EQUAL access/admission to that building to all Guests?

As I said before if someone leaves the line they will have people ahead of and behind them (Some with brightly coloured shirts ). Wouldn't matter. It is not the responsibility of ANY Guest to track, or represent a place in line, for any Guest not a member of their party. Say you determine you're behind the guy in the fuschia and orange Hawaiian-print shirt. That guy gets fed up after an hour and leaves the line. Now what? Plus, how do you prove that represents your place in line? Same thing with a marker - the person holding the marker passes it backwards, and it keeps going backwards through 200 more people. How do you determine where it's your turn to enter?

Now, actually, the OP and his father could have gotten in line together and stayed in line together until they reached a point where the OP would have full sight of his father waiting at the top of the ramp. Then the father could have ridden the ECV up the ramp, the OP could have remained in line, the father could have signaled if he needed help PLUS the OP would have been able to see clearly if he needed help - and when the OP reached the door waiting in line with everyone else, both persons could have entered the building.

But that doesn't seem to be an option the OP considered; I will not speculate on whether the party would have agreed to that option if it had been suggested by a Cast Member. Only the OP knows for sure.

[Cheshire Figment]

Just a quick moderator note here.

This subject is, as just about everyone agrees, a very unusual situation under unusual circumstances.

As the original poster stated an e-mail had been received from WDW on 10/2 asking for a phone number, I am going to hold off on closing this thread; I will allow a reasonable time for the original poster to state the results of the phone call and then it will be closed.

[JLTraveling]

I am the OP, and I would first like to thank the mods for allowing this thread to stay open. I received a call from a Guest Communication representative just a couple of days ago. She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.) for resolution. She did admit fault, and offered two one-day park hoppers for our trouble. As AP holders, this does us no good, and more to the point, referring the matter back to S. guarantees that nothing will be done as far as re-training, etc. We have now retained the services of the Florida Legislature discrimination department, who will be referring us to an ADA attorney. According to what we have been told, both Florida law and the Americans with Disabilities Act forbid this sort of discrimination.

In response to:

Now, actually, the OP and his father could have gotten in line together and stayed in line together until they reached a point where the OP would have full sight of his father waiting at the top of the ramp. Then the father could have ridden the ECV up the ramp, the OP could have remained in line, the father could have signaled if he needed help PLUS the OP would have been able to see clearly if he needed help - and when the OP reached the door waiting in line with everyone else, both persons could have entered the building.

But that doesn't seem to be an option the OP considered; I will not speculate on whether the party would have agreed to that option if it had been suggested by a Cast Member. Only the OP knows for sure.

I think you have misunderstood the situation. At the time that we arrived, the line was ON the steps. Had the line been BEFORE the steps, such that when we arrived at the front, we would have simply split up for him to take the ramp and me to take the stairs, there would have been no issue. But the four hour plus wait took place entirely ON the stairs. The disabled ramp is around the corner on the side of the building, not visible from the stairs due to a wall. Thus, for the entire four hours plus, Dad and I would have been unable to see each other. Therefore, it was not acceptable nor legal.

Thank you to those of you who have been supportive and understanding. I greatly appreciate it!

[kaytieeldr]

Yeah, I guess I still don't understand. I was allowed to wait ON the top surface - the same level as the door - and immediately to the left of the 'rope' and the Guests it was corralling, while my friends waited in line on the Pleasure Island 'street' surface. I was not merely at the top of the ramp.

I do not recall how far back the line went when we first entered, but even snaking around as it most likely did on the 27th, it would seem to me you would still be able to see your father from where you were in line.

She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.) If she did not specifically tell you "PI Management equals S.", and given the several responses in this thread regarding S.'s actual (vs. self-proclaimed) position with Disney, you can't know that this IS the person to whom the matter will be referred.

If she did tell you, "We will refer the matter to S.", that's different.

[JLTraveling]

It sounds like things may have been set up slightly differently when you were there. Before the situation occurred, when we were on the ramp, Dad had to pull forward onto the top surface to let a CM by. There was absolutely no way that he could have remained there due to space. They had a rather large table, a big-screen TV monitor doing a live video feed from inside the club, and over a dozen CMs standing in that space, plus ropes to corral people headed inside. When Dad pulled forward briefly into that area, dozens of bodies and objects had to squeeze out of the way.

No way could they have proceeded with normal operations with him anywhere but ON the ramp itself, which was also being used by CMs going in and out of the club. In fact, the entrance to the ramp itself had been 3/4 blocked by a garbage can and a large potted plant, which we moved back enough to access it in the first place. It looked, though I can't be certain, like it had been blocked off intentionally for CM access.

The ramp was not, in fact, visible from the bottom of the stairs. I know because when we first arrived, I stepped up on the stairs at the back of the line to see if I could tell where to go for the ramp (Dad is able to walk a little with a cane, and on a normal night he parks the ECV outside and walks in. He cannot, however, stand for a protracted time). I couldn't see it, but I did see the blue sign with the arrow pointing to the ramp.

Even if, hypothetically speaking, Dad had been able to wait somewhere, alone, but where I could see him... does sitting by himself for four hours while others can wait with their parties, in your mind, constitute an equal experience to that permitted to non-disabled parties? In addition, what if I had needed to administer the medication that I carry? Wouldn't I have had to leave the line to do so, thus losing both of our places?

The situation was badly mismanaged by Disney. Disney is well aware of ADA law and discrimination law, and chose to act (or more specifically S. chose to act) in violation of the law. How they become compliant is not up to me to figure out, but I had the reasonable expectation that they would do so.

[Talking Hands]

I am the OP, and I would first like to thank the mods for allowing this thread to stay open. I received a call from a Guest Communication representative just a couple of days ago. She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.) for resolution. She did admit fault, and offered two one-day park hoppers for our trouble. As AP holders, this does us no good, and more to the point, referring the matter back to S. guarantees that nothing will be done as far as re-training, etc. We have now retained the services of the Florida Legislature discrimination department, who will be referring us to an ADA attorney. According to what we have been told, both Florida law and the Americans with Disabilities Act forbid this sort of discrimination.

In response to:


I think you have misunderstood the situation. At the time that we arrived, the line was ON the steps. Had the line been BEFORE the steps, such that when we arrived at the front, we would have simply split up for him to take the ramp and me to take the stairs, there would have been no issue. But the four hour plus wait took place entirely ON the stairs. The disabled ramp is around the corner on the side of the building, not visible from the stairs due to a wall. Thus, for the entire four hours plus, Dad and I would have been unable to see each other. Therefore, it was not acceptable nor legal.

Thank you to those of you who have been supportive and understanding. I greatly appreciate it!
I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point. Also I don't know why you couldn't see your Dad from the steps as I can see the entire front from the top of the ramp including the steps. And I have used that ramp many times. Now if you were talking about Comedy Warehouse I could see the problem but Adventurers Club steps.

[JLTraveling]

I think at this point we'll need to agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, but those opinions do not change the letter or the spirit of the law. If some of you are comfortable with leaving people in wheelchairs with volatile medical conditions to sit alone for four hours, and that is an acceptable solution to you, so be it. That is within your rights and entirely your choice. However, it is not a legally acceptable solution, and I choose not to defend my point of view any further.

Thanks again to those who have been supportive. I do appreciate it :)

[livndisney]

I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point. Also I don't know why you couldn't see your Dad from the steps as I can see the entire front from the top of the ramp including the steps. And I have used that ramp many times. Now if you were talking about Comedy Warehouse I could see the problem but Adventurers Club steps.

Perhaps the "retraining" was meant for the CM's in general. To my knowledge the CM's from PI were given the chance to relocate to other areas in WDW.

[kaytieeldr]

They had a rather large table, a big-screen TV monitor doing a live video feed from inside the club, and over a dozen CMs standing in that space, plus ropes to corral people headed inside Ah, yes - there's the difference! That area where there were a dozen or so CMs on Saturday? There were never more than four on Friday, and usually no more than two.

[kaytieeldr]

I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point. True - but IF S. is truly 'the manager' (as defined by Disney and not merely in his own mind) and has been reassigned to a similar-level position, retraining may well be appropriate. Not necessarily successful, but appropriate :)

[disneymarie]

Unfortunatly I had a similar experiance at Universal Islands of Advanture. One trip I had to push my disabled older daughter in 99* heat up the ramp with severe asthma because the greeter asked if she was ambulatory to get into the train ride that goes through the resaurant. I nearly passsed out and was treated for heat exhaustion...they had a dang elevator we caould have used. I was in tears as our day was shot. It was a short day due to early closing for the Halloween nights two years ago.

The next day I was in my Rollator and my older son with disabled dd went to the other side of the park while I took dd 10 to the Suess land area. I wanted to go on the attraction that I think is a sofa tour.....The older woman would not allow me to have her with me. The line was so long and she wanted me to allow the 10 yr old to stay in line alone until she reached me. It could have been easily over an hour. She ahd just turned 10 the day before, there was no way!

I could believe they actually thought it was OK for the child to remain in the line.......Persons with disabilities don;t have the energy to hop , short lne to short line. Everything is an effort, especially if the disability has a secondary reaction to extreme heat.

I had her to three attractions all day......there was nowhere I could wait in the cool. Except the dang first aid station and replenish with gator aid and ice.
This was a record breaking Oct heat of near 100* every day two years ago this week. I knew not to go again in May.

I just wanated to give my dd a good time, a nice day. We never knew the future held that was to be my older dd last trip. She passed away a few months later...When for heavens sake can;t parks meet the medical needs and not put patrons at risk pushing limits. Even in Disney to see 5 attactions on a full day, with two long breaks, it is pushing it.

But, what if your Dad had a serious need and no one responded and he was in great risk, where they willing to assume that? I think parks need to use common sense and stop thinking patrons are trying to get away with something.

Grab every precious moment of joy, and assist the park patrons to have that day.