Buses, ECVs, and the Law

[mgilmer]

It isn't something that is word for word out of the ADA it is how court precedent has interpreted what equal non-discriminatory access is.

So the court has said that to load able-bodied guests only would be to treat a wheel-chair user differently and therefore not equally.

Its not meant as a penalty to anyone, only as a means to treat everybody at one bus stop equally.

What court where?

[mgilmer]

:confused3

So, at this point, I can't say that the "bus is considered full" part is in any specific law. I did see it in writing, but can't point to it, so I won't quote that part anymore.
I can say that some of the 'good drivers' have mentioned that they were told that information in their training, so not sure why it would be part of the training if it was not true. :confused3



Sue:

It could be that is Disney policy. As my lawyer friend told me, there is nothing preventing Disney, or any other business, from going above or beyond the "floor" that is the law and enabling regulations and doing more than what the law allows to institute parity between the disabled and the enabled. I just think it is wrong to state something as the law (the "floor") when it is not.

[bookwormde]

When a law is passed (ADA) the responsible executive department creates rules and regulations, which for this particular situation is title III section 304. It basically states that persons with disabilities will not be discriminated against (have equal access), and specifies which levels of transport the section applies to.

Then methodologies are developed to meet the regulations. Some of these work without challenge and some are challenged either administratively or in Federal District Court.
Once a set of generally acceptable methodologies are developed they are published for use a guidelines. This does not mean that they work in all situations or are not open to challenge.

The methodology, which DWD uses, is one of these methodologies, which have become generally acceptable. There are certainly other methodologies that would work (like having 10 disabled places n the bus instead of 1 or 2) but WDW has chosen this one to be most efficient while providing equal access.

Part of this equal access consideration in this methodology is that if a disabled person is not able to load then to allow anyone else to load would violate equal access.

Loading order is just a matter of practicality and safety (assuming that non disabled individuals respect the law in regards to the disabled spaces).

There is a large body of court and administrative rulings on ADA, which continue to evolve; additionally Congress modifies the law upon occasion (a big amendment reinstating some of the original intent is just being passed).

There is no specific enforcing action for removing individuals from Disabled seats, what does happen if these seat are not available as needed is that WDW would have to come up with a way to make these seat unavailable at all times except when needed by disabled individuals. Obliviously this is inefficient but is the final solution.

To give another example, WDW has some room classes, which can be more difficult to access (book) for disabled individuals than for the general population. Even though they are within the guidelines, if the practical effect of the methodology creates inequalities in access then it is still open to administrative of court challenge.

Hope this helps with some process understanding.

bookwormde

[mgilmer]

When a law is passed (ADA) the responsible executive department creates rules and regulations, which for this particular situation is title III section 304. It basically states that persons with disabilities will not be discriminated against (have equal access), and specifies which levels of transport the section applies to.

Then methodologies are developed to meet the regulations. Some of these work without challenge and some are challenged either administratively or in Federal District Court.
Once a set of generally acceptable methodologies are developed they are published for use a guidelines. This does not mean that they work in all situations or are not open to challenge.

The methodology, which DWD uses, is one of these methodologies, which have become generally acceptable. There are certainly other methodologies that would work (like having 10 disabled places n the bus instead of 1 or 2) but WDW has chosen this one to be most efficient while providing equal access.

Part of this equal access consideration in this methodology is that if a disabled person is not able to load then to allow anyone else to load would violate equal access.

Loading order is just a matter of practicality and safety (assuming that non disabled individuals respect the law in regards to the disabled spaces).

There is a large body of court and administrative rulings on ADA, which continue to evolve; additionally Congress modifies the law upon occasion (a big amendment reinstating some of the original intent is just being passed).

There is no specific enforcing action for removing individuals from Disabled seats, what does happen if these seat are not available as needed is that WDW would have to come up with a way to make these seat unavailable at all times except when needed by disabled individuals. Obliviously this is inefficient but is the final solution.

To give another example, WDW has some room classes, which can be more difficult to access (book) for disabled individuals than for the general population. Even though they are within the guidelines, if the practical effect of the methodology creates inequalities in access then it is still open to administrative of court challenge.

Hope this helps with some process understanding.

bookwormde

That is precisely what the attorney told me. These are guidelines to meet the ADA requirements but they are not the law as other guidelines can be used as well. These are only suggestions to businesses as ways of implementing the ADA equal access provisions. They do not carry the force of law. I think we need to be careful in saying that doing "X" is illegal when it is not. It is not illegal to continue to load the enabled just because there are no disabled slots available. Other accommodations can (and should) be made in those circumstances. Now if a driver deliberately refuses to load a disabled person when disabled space is available, that is another story. That is illegal.

[bookwormde]

Actually once a methodology is chosen if the entity fails to follow the methodology and the effect is to deny equal access that is a violation of the law. So yes if the driver continues to load, then by not assuring equal access, he is causing his employer to be in violation of the law. Occasional inadvertent violations are not generally perused, but if a pattern develops then administrative and court challenges are appropriate and would likely find that the entity was not in compliance.

bookwormde

[mgilmer]

Actually once a methodology is chosen if the entity fails to follow the methodology and the effect is to deny equal access that is a violation of the law. So yes if the driver continues to load, then by not assuring equal access, he is causing his employer to be in violation of the law. Occasional inadvertent violations are not generally perused, but if a pattern develops then administrative and court challenges are appropriate and would likely find that the entity was not in compliance.








chrome://easygestures/skin/small_menu.png
chrome://easygestures/skin/small_link.pngchrome://easygestures/skin/matchCase_Off.pngchrome://easygestures/skin/searchWebSign.pngchrome://easygestures/skin/altMenuSign0.pngchrome://easygestures/skin/contextMenuSign.pngchrome://easygestures/skin/contextMenuSign.png



bookwormde

Well I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv, but my friend said that an alternate accommodation is an acceptable alternative. I asked him how a business like Disney could make an acceptable alternative accommodation in this situation and he said that if the driver immediately called for a second bus and the disabled person unable to be loaded due to space limits on the first bus was loaded first on the second bus and the wait period was "reasonable" for the second bus to arrive, that would be an acceptable accomodation under the law. FWIW, my friend has been practicsing exclusively in this area for about 30 years and really knows his beans.

[bookwormde]

Actually the second bus must arrive before the first bus leaves it loaded riders at the stop to be in technical compliance, but most people find this accommodation acceptable as long a the bus can actually accommodate them in a reasonable time. Most people are quite happy as long as the situation is reasonable, that is why there are very few formal challenges. And yes any accommodation, which provides equivalent access is acceptable, it is only when access is not equivalent that there is an issue

bookwormde

[Talking Hands]

Actually the second bus must arrive before the first bus leaves it loaded riders at the stop to be in technical compliance, but most people find this accommodation acceptable as long a the bus can actually accommodate them in a reasonable time. Most people are quite happy as long as the situation is reasonable, that is why there are very few formal challenges. And yes any accommodation, which provides equivalent access is acceptable, it is only when access is not equivalent that there is an issue

bookwormde
But this is given lip service and in reality is not done by the drivers at WDW. You are just told to wait for the next bus or altogether ignored. If they do say they will call for another bus it doesn't happen and you wait for the next scheduled bus. That is unless you call and complain.

[mgilmer]

But this is given lip service and in reality is not done by the drivers at WDW. You are just told to wait for the next bus or altogether ignored. If they do say they will call for another bus it doesn't happen and you wait for the next scheduled bus. That is unless you call and complain.

That is a clear violation of the law. No doubt about it and Disney should be held to account.

[SueM in MN]

Sue:

It could be that is Disney policy. As my lawyer friend told me, there is nothing preventing Disney, or any other business, from going above or beyond the "floor" that is the law and enabling regulations and doing more than what the law allows to institute parity between the disabled and the enabled. I just think it is wrong to state something as the law (the "floor") when it is not.
Trust me, I do know the difference between policy, law and guidelines.
I work with CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) and OSHA guidelines and Federal and State Law. I also have written my share of policies and procedures over the years.

I was (I guess you could say) acting in good faith when I posted that information. It was represented to me as law, not policy.
I was told it in PMs independently by 2 bus drivers probably 7 or 8 years ago and did have a citation for it which they sent to me (I do not think it was presented to me as ADA law, but as Department of Transportation). Over the years since then, a number of bus drivers have also mentioned it to us (as law) while they were loading DD's wheelchair on the bus. So, I did have what seemed like very good evidence for the information.

As I stated in the post that you quoted, I do not now have a link to back up the information about the bus being 'full', so I will not post that until/unless I can find a link to back it up. As much as possible, I do find links to as much specific information as I can. I don't always post the links, because links have a way of becoming 'dead' links that no longer work, but I do post quotes whenever possible.
There is a link (which I posted in this thread) (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1951003&page=2) that says the bus drivers are required to ask people sitting in the 'handicapped designated' seats to move if those seats are needed by someone with a disability. So, that part is based on the ADA Civil Rights Document.

I would have preferred a PM rather than an accusation in a thread that basically said I knowingly represented something as law when it was not, but I do think the discussion that comes out of this may be a good thing.

PM or thread, I would have done the same thing that I did on the linked thread above - indicated I could not back up part of the information and would not post it again. I don't have time to go back right now and post that same information on other threads where it came up, but will when I have time in the next weekend.

I am not afraid to say I am wrong when I am. I do read threads on other boards, which is where I read the information which led me to spend a couple of hours looking for back up documentation and when I could not find it, I posted in the thread linked above.

[bookwormde]

In the end the “technicalities” only matter if you are headed for administrative or court solutions to a problem. What people need to keep in mind is that ADA is a discriminations law with the basic concept being equal access, when equal access does not happen other than in an unusual circumstance, it is time to work through the channels to correct the situation. This is typically the only way that things improve. Bus supervisors are the best starting point in this case, if that does not work I would think that WDW has an manager or department which is responsible for of meeting the needs of special needs guest who visit WDW and that would be the next level.

Just wondering is anyone has the email for this person/department? With the persistence of the current bus access problem it is probably getting to be time for someone who has been affected by this issue to move it up the chain of command in WDW.

Thanks to CheshireFigment for splitting this discussing off so those that have interest in it can access it easier and can serve as a useful link since the general bus discussion seem to come up regularly.

bookwormde

[Talking Hands]

I have sent a link to a friend whose job is Disability Access at Disney.

[bookwormde]

TalkingHands

Thanks, hopefully the person will consider the possibility of setting up and supplying an email address so when issues are identified that appear to be a significant and repetitive problem which have not been resolved through standard channels, that this information can be transferred in a timely manner.

Since we all love Disney and just want to make it better my thoughts are that this would avoid the potential of issues like this eventually entering the adversarial venue.

bookwormde

[mgilmer]

Trust me, I do know the difference between policy, law and guidelines.
I work with CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) and OSHA guidelines and Federal and State Law. I also have written my share of policies and procedures over the years.

I was (I guess you could say) acting in good faith when I posted that information. It was represented to me as law, not policy.
I was told it in PMs independently by 2 bus drivers probably 7 or 8 years ago and did have a citation for it which they sent to me (I do not think it was presented to me as ADA law, but as Department of Transportation). Over the years since then, a number of bus drivers have also mentioned it to us (as law) while they were loading DD's wheelchair on the bus. So, I did have what seemed like very good evidence for the information.

As I stated in the post that you quoted, I do not now have a link to back up the information about the bus being 'full', so I will not post that until/unless I can find a link to back it up. As much as possible, I do find links to as much specific information as I can. I don't always post the links, because links have a way of becoming 'dead' links that no longer work, but I do post quotes whenever possible.
There is a link (which I posted in this thread) (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1951003&page=2) that says the bus drivers are required to ask people sitting in the 'handicapped designated' seats to move if those seats are needed by someone with a disability. So, that part is based on the ADA Civil Rights Document.

I would have preferred a PM rather than an accusation in a thread that basically said I knowingly represented something as law when it was not, but I do think the discussion that comes out of this may be a good thing.

PM or thread, I would have done the same thing that I did on the linked thread above - indicated I could not back up part of the information and would not post it again. I don't have time to go back right now and post that same information on other threads where it came up, but will when I have time in the next weekend.

I am not afraid to say I am wrong when I am. I do read threads on other boards, which is where I read the information which led me to spend a couple of hours looking for back up documentation and when I could not find it, I posted in the thread linked above.

Sue:

It was never my intention to accuse or imply that you were willfully misstating anything. I apologize for stating my opinion is such a way as would lead you to believe that. I have the utmost respect for you and your posts and agree with you 99.8% of the time. Again, I apologize.

[mgilmer]

There is a link (which I posted in this thread) (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1951003&page=2) that says the bus drivers are required to ask people sitting in the 'handicapped designated' seats to move if those seats are needed by someone with a disability. So, that part is based on the ADA Civil Rights Document.



I have always thought that part of the law is too weak. If an enabled person parks their car in a handicapped parking space, they can be told to move it or get a ticket and be towed. Why cannot the same be told to an enabled person who parks their butt in a handicapped blocking space (assuming there is another place for them to move to)?

[sunnydoozer]

What court where?

Oh Lord :sad2:

I guess you were on some sort of militant bent. I merely wanted to let the other posters know that there was no such language in the ADA. I have no interest in photocopying lengthy court rulings, for your benefit, especially when you presumeably have access yourself through your "lawyer friend".

Since you didn't pick up on it no one on the board was suggesting that buses leave half full. It is however useful food for thought to encourage city's and oddly enough Disney to have sufficient lifts and tiedowns in service.

[Talking Hands]

I can tell you that in the 10 years I have been using an ECV and then a PWC at WDW has an able bodied person denied access to a bus because I could not be accommodated. I will be left behind but they will be allowed to board unless there is no room for anyone to board. Is that equal access? No! Is it the way it is? Sure is. Do I complain about it. Not really. I don't want those who are able to go to WDW without mobility aids to complain even more that the disabled are ruining their trip.

[Schmeck]

Would this be considered illegal? 3 people in ECVs are waiting for the bus, which fits only 2 ECVs. Two get on, one is left to wait for the next bus. The bus driver then lets those able to use the front entrance to board.

How about this scenario? I get on a bus, and the only open seats are the ones that fold up for an ECV/wheelchair. I have to have a seat because my calf is aching from my re-excision, so I sit in one of those seats. Now we get to the next bus stop and someone there is in a wheelchair. Can I be forced to get out of my seat and stand? If I have to stand, I'd have to get off the bus and wait for the next one, as I'd collapse on a moving bus if I was standing.

Has anyone looked at the # of ECV and wheelchair users on average at WDW, the number of able bodied guests, and the ratio of those to the ratio of seats on a bus to the tie down places? If the ratios are the same, then letting able bodied people on a bus even after the tie down spots are full would seem to be equal access to me. Think about after a park closes - People sometimes have to wait for 3 buses to come to get back to the resorts!

What I'd really like to see are those buses/subways like they have in Asia - the whole side opens up, and it's open access for everyone. They'd have to figure out how to incorporate more tie downs though. There could be one side full of seating, a full side of tiedown areas, and poles/grab handles down the center for people who choose to stand.

[Talking Hands]

I don't think your scenarios are illegal.
If I am the 3rd one in line I would have to wait anyway as there are only 2 tiedowns
The driver can ask you to move but you can refuse and then there is no space for an ECV or PWC. And obviously you have good reason to sit.
Open access for everyone. Really. And how do they avoid people in ECVs and PWCs injuring others in the free for all. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[SueM in MN]

Sue:

It was never my intention to accuse or imply that you were willfully misstating anything. I apologize for stating my opinion is such a way as would lead you to believe that. I have the utmost respect for you and your posts and agree with you 99.8% of the time. Again, I apologize.
Sorry I misunderstood/overreacted. I had kind of a tough last 2 weeks.
I have always thought that part of the law is too weak. If an enabled person parks their car in a handicapped parking space, they can be told to move it or get a ticket and be towed. Why cannot the same be told to an enabled person who parks their butt in a handicapped blocking space (assuming there is another place for them to move to)?
I think the idea is that most people will move from the handicapped spot on the bus if there are seats to move to - there is not anything particular about that seat that makes it more 'desirable' (unlike handicapped parking spots, which are looked at as 'desirable' since they are closer).
If you look on the Family Board, you will find that some people do 'desire' those bus seats, since it's possible to store a stroller underneath.

[bookwormde]

Schmeck,

In the first scenario there is unequal access, therefore it could be a basis for a challenge. If this were an isolated situation it would likely be unsuccessful. If it could be established that there was a pattern of this occurrence then WDW would likely be directed to come up with a solution, obviously the solution is to add more wheelchair locations to the busses. It only reaches the level of being a sanctionable situation if WDW fails to develop and effective solution once a pattern of unequal access is identified.

In the second situation ADA has no individual sanctions for not following the rules, there are only “provider sanctions”. So the bus would be considered full and everyone would wait for the next one.

I agree there is an increased use of ECV’s, I wonder if it is some of what some posters were worried about in earlier threads when rental rates went up so precipitously, that a lot more strollers and ECVs would have to be accommodated on the busses as people brought their own or rent off site.

As a note if WDW had a formal queuing system at the loading points, it would not be a denial of equal access for individual needing WC positions to be boarded in que groups, as long as if “bunching occurred” there were adequate position in the busses to prevent this from becoming a secondary effect of the configuration “pattern”.

bookwormde

[SueM in MN]

As a note if WDW had a formal queuing system at the loading points, it would not be a denial of equal access for individual needing WC positions to be boarded in que groups, as long as if “bunching occurred” there were adequate position in the busses to prevent this from becoming a secondary effect of the configuration “pattern”.

bookwormde
The problem I see coming with having people with wheelchairs and ECVS queue with everyone else (besides the good possibility of the seats needed by the person using the ECV/wheelchair being already filled) is that it would take extra time.
With no one on the bus, it is much easier to load and tie down the wheelchair/ECV than it is if guests are already on. Doing the ECV/wheelchair first also makes it less likely that anyone would be hurt in the process.

The driver also has to go to the back door to open it and deploy the ramp/lift.

There is a big difference comparing riders of WDW buses to riders of city transportation buses. Most city bus riders are experienced and know what to expect. That makes it faster and easier to load people, wheelchairs or not.
Many people riding WDW buses have never ridden anything like the WDW buses before - their bus experience was probably school buses.

If WDW ever gets buses with the wheelchair spots loaded and tied down in the front, then they could do wheelchairs/ECVs queuing with everyone else. But, that would mean all/majority of buses would have to be like that for it to be an efficient process.

[bookwormde]

Sue,

I was not advocating a queue system since as you said it would be very difficult to implement (queue area, redistribution area to allow ECV/wheelchairs to load first within the group etc). I was just using it as an example of what would have to be done to insure equal access to be in keeping with order of arrival, since that was a concern for some people, and gives an idea of some of the complexity and secondary effects in designing a system.

bookwormde

[Schmeck]

Open access for everyone. Really. And how do they avoid people in ECVs and PWCs injuring others in the free for all. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Yeah, I guess it would have to depend on the politeness of everyone, and we know that won't happen. My husband's cousin works/lives in Vietnam, and she travels all over Asia on her free time, and she tells such horrid stories of how the buses load and unload over there!

But what if there were queue lines like at Test Track and Soarin' for buses? Then people would know if they were going to get a seat, or opt to stand, and also queue up for a tiedown. Then one side of the bus would open up for everyone to get off, close back down, and then the other side would open for people to get in. Too hi-tech to happen right now (think how much fun it would be if the doors got stuck up in the air!) but I hope it could happen in the future. Imagine no need for ADA because everything would be accessible! I know we're just talking about physical needs here, of course.

[Talking Hands]

I must say that family is not a big issue with me as I travel with my husband or alone. Never have a big group now my kids are grown. I have seen huge groups get on with wheelchair guests and that would bug me as well. Another thing that bothers me is the people who try to claim to be with me and aren't. Sorry get in line with everyone else.
I am quite willing to wait if the line is full. I give myself plenty of time to get places, but it does bug me when I leave the time and still end up late because of drivers who refuse to load me when there is room. For me it is not the same as most guest who can go to any show in any order they want. Because I also am hard of hearing and prefer interpreted shows I am limited to on show time per show and only on the day that park is interpreted. Means a schedule to be followed. I miss a show it often means I don't see it until my next visit. We do more short trips as we live only 4 hours south of Disney

[toocherie]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

To me it is just pure selfishness and so prevalent in our society today.

[SueM in MN]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

To me it is just pure selfishness and so prevalent in our society today.
::yes::
:sad1:

[bavaria]

I know this sentiment has probably been expressed elsewhere--but I just think it is so sad--and an indictment of what America has become--that people can actually even "think" to complain about whether a handicapped person gets on a bus first--let alone actually post those sentiments for everyone else to see.

I posted this elsewhere, and hesitate to criticize as I am not a citizen of America, however I certain that when the time comes that I am no longer as mobile as I am now (and that time will come), that I will not be travelling to WDW unless there is a significant change in attitude. I rarely ask for assistance, and the few times that I do I have seen the looks, or heard the comments, or read things here which pain me.

While other parts of the world may have less access, the mentality that people are faking or scamming, or 'getting something' just isn't expressed in the manner that I have witnessed here or in person at WDW in recent years. I get weary reading a lot of the threads here and the things which people post, expressing that their needs are more important than anyone else's.

This is not a competition, but until people realize that and stop putting their own desires first, the attitudes will not change.

I too am shocked at some of the posts I read and am sorry for those of you who have to endure such behaviour.

[cmwade77]

Ok, first I have to say equal access to the busses is impossible, until the same number of wheelchairs and ECVs can be loaded per bus as able bodied people. Equal access means that anyone in a wheelchair or ECV should have the same exact wait time as anyone that isn't. That would be equal access, so for now we settle for as close as we can get and many times that is 3-4 times longer than anyone else, so how can that be equal? Well, the only way that I can come up with to make it absolutely equal is to put barcodes on the GACs, when you get in line for something (a WDW bus, ride, whatever) your pass is scanned, then when you get on it is scanned again recording the time that you waited and comparing it to other people's wait time currently, then at the next attraction that you go to you would wait the normal standby time minus any "credit time" that you have before boarding immediately after that, if it means you board right away the stand by time would be deducted from your "credit"

Yes this would mean some major changes, i.e. a CM at all the bus stops at all times, GAC cards distributed by the resorts, scanners at all places that people wait, etc. but it would be the only way to completely ensure equal access and not make it unfair to either the person with a disability or to the avrage guest. Also to make is as accurate as possible stand by times would have to be reduced by about 30% when recording them, as this is about how much longer it takes for a person with a disability to get around than a person without.

In addition, GACs need to be accepted at the water parks(this would pose some issues as well, but I am sure a reasonable system could be accommodated), restaurants and shops.

Bottom line is I have timed things out with using a GAC compared to the posted stanby times at the end of the day I generally have waited in lines about 60 minutes longer than the average guest, according to the posted wait times, now my wait has been more comfortable with my needs, but I still waited longer, that is not equal access. Again, this is compared to posted times and those are usually inflated a fair amount, I know many times I asked about the 40 minute posted wait and people have told me the actually waited 20-25 minutes (timed it), so if that were taken into consideration then I have waited a lot longer (not counting times when rides broke down while in line either, as that would not be fair). In addition, waiting to get off of rides when they break down is a lot longer for us as well and for good safety reasons, I understand, but it is still less that we are able to do that day.

The above system could also work with FP, if you have one and come back during the window, hen they simply change it to compare to how long the FP line is currently waiting (again minus 30% for the extra time it takes to get to places).

[Schmeck]

Ok, first I have to say equal access to the busses is impossible, until the same number of wheelchairs and ECVs can be loaded per bus as able bodied people.

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.

[BillSears]

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.

I guess it all depends on what you consider equal. Equal access to me is no matter what combination of guests arrive at the bus stop all get to board up to the total capacity of the bus. So if 10 walking and 10 rolling people are at the bus stop equal access would mean they all get to board since a bus can hold more then 20 people.

[cmwade77]

So, are you saying that for every ablebodied person at WDW, there is one in a wheelchair? That's the only way a 50-50 bus of tiedowns/seats and standing would be equal access.

Of course there is no way to get a precise ratio at a given time for wheelchair/ECV users at WDW vs those walking, but I'd give it about a 1:20 ratio, not 1:1. So, if there was 1 tiedown spot for every 20 seats, and then 1 for every 20 people standing, then it would be equal access. Having it 1:1 would be superior access, which is illegal under the ADA. Of course it's illegal the other way around too, not having enough tiedown spots available.
No, what I am saying is that to ensure that those of us who have various needs that we wait no longer than everyone else there would have to be an equal number of spaces available (of course this is impractical). This would not be superior access, as those spaces could be used for those that don't have the needs when those that have needs don't need them. Again, equal access means an equal wait, period, not shorter or longer wait, right now there are longer waits on the whole, this is not equal access, now some attractions do offer shorter waits, so it at least balances out to some degree, but not enough, it is still longer on the whole.

[SueM in MN]

This would not be superior access, as those spaces could be used for those that don't have the needs when those that have needs don't need them.
As it is right now on the buses, if the spots for wheelchairs are not needed to put a wheelchair or ECV in, they are seats that can be used by people who have walked into the bus. When someone needs to use them for a wheelchair/ECV, the seats are flipped up and out of the way.
So, as it is now, 100% of the wheelchair spots would be useable by someone who can walk on the bus and sit on that seat. Since there are only 2 wheelchair/ECV tiedown spots on each bus, only a small percentage of the seats are useable by someone with a wheelchair/ECV.

If they made ALL the seats able to be flipped up like that for wheelchair access, they would be 100% accessible for people who can walk in and sit on them. Even though they could convert to wheelchair accessible spots, they might not be usable by someone with an ECV/wheelchair. If the bus was too full, they could not manouver into the space (even though there would probably be enough room for someone to walk in and sit in that same spot).

[cmwade77]

As it is right now on the buses, if the spots for wheelchairs are not needed to put a wheelchair or ECV in, they are seats that can be used by people who have walked into the bus. When someone needs to use them for a wheelchair/ECV, the seats are flipped up and out of the way.
So, as it is now, 100% of the wheelchair spots would be useable by someone who can walk on the bus and sit on that seat. Since there are only 2 wheelchair/ECV tiedown spots on each bus, only a small percentage of the seats are useable by someone with a wheelchair/ECV.

If they made ALL the seats able to be flipped up like that for wheelchair access, they would be 100% accessible for people who can walk in and sit on them. Even though they could convert to wheelchair accessible spots, they might not be usable by someone with an ECV/wheelchair. If the bus was too full, they could not manouver into the space (even though there would probably be enough room for someone to walk in and sit in that same spot).
I did say it wouldn't be feasible, my point is that waiting longer is not equal access, which is why in my previous post I mentioned that there should be a system in place to level out the wait times throughout the day, this would be fair to all those involved.

[Schmeck]

I guess it all depends on what you consider equal. Equal access to me is no matter what combination of guests arrive at the bus stop all get to board up to the total capacity of the bus. So if 10 walking and 10 rolling people are at the bus stop equal access would mean they all get to board since a bus can hold more then 20 people.

That was my vision with the full-opensided buses - that it wouldn't matter what accomodation you needed, everyone just got on at the same time. It was panned here as impractical.

Seems to me that there is a no-win attitude here. No matter what is suggested, unless those in wheelchairs and ECVs get on when they want, as many as they want, then it's no fair? Ablebodied people do not always get on the bus, sometimes have to wait for the next bus, etc, as well. Many times a half full bus went right past our bus stop as well.

[bookwormde]

The accommodations for ADA are never perfect and are based on what is practical and effective and accomplishable. Every accommodation I devised were always in the end a compromise, which at times inconvenienced non-disabled people and in unusual situations did not create the ultimate goal of equal access, but in the end were acceptable accommodations within the statute and its guidelines and rulings.

bookwormde

[seashoreCM]

By and large the accommodations for the "disabled" have to be reasonable and not require tremendous expenditures by the owner or operator or landlord.

Note that the playing field can be leveled somewhat by considering the total guest experience, for example a solution satisfactory to many might consist of reducing the wait time at rides and attractions to make up for an increased wait time for buses. Disney already has appropriate technologies here.

There are some buses (don't know if Disney has any) where the front door accommodates wheelchairs. Still, the first wheelchair tiedown has to be somewhat further back because there isn't enough room for tiedowns and the bus wheels and the aisle.

[BillSears]

One thing to consider is the whole tie down situation. I've riden standard buses here in Baltimore a couple of times and no tie downs are used. The busses kneel down and extend a ramp from the front door, I enter in the front and go to a spot near the front door of the bus. Then I lock my wheels and hold on to a pole... it is a ride all to itself. ;) It could be that tie downs are required at Disney because the buses travel on higher speed roads.


E.T.A. I just checked out the MTA(Mass Transit Administration) website and it seems the buses are supposed to be equipped with tie downs of some sort. I don't remember ever seeing them and the bus driver didn't mention them. However it has been a few years since I've riden an MTA bus so things may have changed.

[heatherfeather24]

Does anyone know if WDW has ever considered some sort of paratransit system wherein there was a fleet of dedicated vehicles dispatched by radio (or some other viable means)? I understand that paratranist is not required by the ADA when the bus fleet is accessible, but it seems to me that a dedicated fleet could be particularly useful during high traffic hours (such as open, close, etc.) as a way to lessen wait times for everyone. As an aside, please don't take this thought to suggest an excuse for WDW to deny boarding of accessible busses to individuals using wheelchairs or ECVs, I'm envisioning it as more of a supplement.

[SueM in MN]

One thing to consider is the whole tie down situation. I've riden standard buses here in Baltimore a couple of times and no tie downs are used. The busses kneel down and extend a ramp from the front door, I enter in the front and go to a spot near the front door of the bus. Then I lock my wheels and hold on to a pole... it is a ride all to itself. ;) It could be that tie downs are required at Disney because the buses travel on higher speed roads.


E.T.A. I just checked out the MTA(Mass Transit Administration) website and it seems the buses are supposed to be equipped with tie downs of some sort. I don't remember ever seeing them and the bus driver didn't mention them. However it has been a few years since I've riden an MTA bus so things may have changed.
Securement (i.e. tiedowns) are required by the ADA - it's in 49 CFR part 38 of the ADA, (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/49cfr38.23.htm)part d) almost at the end. The last part talks about seat belts.
The wheelchair tiedowns are meant more to make sure the wheelchairs are secured down to the same extent as the regular bus seats are secured, from what I understand.
We actually made a complaint that involved just this situation to one of the car rental places that use a shuttle bus. The driver deployed the ramp, I helped DD wheel on and we asked where the tiedowns were. The driver said just to park anywhere and lock DD's brakes. I said, "I don't think so. We are going on the highway at highway speeds." DD and I got off and waited while my DH took the shuttle bus to pick up the rental car and come back for us.

There are some buses (don't know if Disney has any) where the front door accommodates wheelchairs. Still, the first wheelchair tiedown has to be somewhat further back because there isn't enough room for tiedowns and the bus wheels and the aisle.
As far as I know, Disney does not have any of the wheelchair accessible buses that load at the front.
Unless they replaced all their buses with those, I think it would be rather confusing for guests. Also, the lowered floor buses that are some of the newer ones actually have the front few seats over the front wheels.
Does anyone know if WDW has ever considered some sort of paratransit system wherein there was a fleet of dedicated vehicles dispatched by radio (or some other viable means)? I understand that paratranist is not required by the ADA when the bus fleet is accessible, but it seems to me that a dedicated fleet could be particularly useful during high traffic hours (such as open, close, etc.) as a way to lessen wait times for everyone. As an aside, please don't take this thought to suggest an excuse for WDW to deny boarding of accessible busses to individuals using wheelchairs or ECVs, I'm envisioning it as more of a supplement.
They don't have a fleet of paratransit buses; they do have a couple.
It appears they are used most for situations where a group of 3 of more people are traveling with wheelchairs/ECVs.
We rode one once. I don't remember the particulars, but do remember it involved a long wait at a park to get back to our resort, a couple of buses which could not take us (back in the days where not all buses had wheelchair spots). It also involved several other passengers with a wheelchair.

[kaytieeldr]

... but could NOT get a definitive response to "If a bus is too full at a given stop to load a Guest in a wheelchair or ECV but does not already have two such devices onboard, is it then ALSO considered 'too full' to pick up ANY passengers at that stop"? I spoke to a manager; I spoke to supervisors; I spoke to people who looked likde supervisors; I even spoke to bus drivers. Nobody would give me an absolute answer.

The drivers will, or should, ask Guests to move - but can't make them move. And one driver even admitted that he's reluctant to ask (or just plain won't, I forget) because if the bus is crowded and Guests DO get up, and an ECV runs over someone's foot, the driver is responsible for the injury.

[bookwormde]

It sounds like the department/individual who is responsible for managing the disabilities issues at WDW needs to do an upgrade to the transportation department disabilities training by supplying a copy of the specific written policy to all employees involved and making sure they fully understand the policy/procedures and follow them.

Since the an individual at WDW who has responsibility for this area has been “referred” to this thread hopefully the situation will improve significantly very soon.

I would hate to see it become necessary for formal filings to be necessary since this just uses us scarce recourses, or to start seeing these ADA violations start showing up on U-Tube when frustrated people start videoing them and posting them, since WDW does such a good job with making the WDW experience so special for disabled individuals in general.

It surprises me that WDW does not have a “community” comment/facilities/complaint advisory committee set up since this has become a relatively standard practice for larger company and has become a common component to many consent decrees for adjudicated violation settlements.

bookwormde