Who's staying at the Four Seasons?

[MODisFan]

Pete posed the question on this weeks podcast about who would be staying at the Four Seasons and other high end hotels. I know who - it's the same people who can pay $31 for a stroller, $75 for a park ticket and afford to go to the high-end restaurants to eat a filet. Disney is making it more and more challenging for the average American to have an affordable "dream" vacation.

[simonkodousek]

I also know who! Annoying teenagers who constantly bug their parents to spend lots of $$$ on Disney hotels.

Just kidding... when I go to WDW, there just isn't as much magic staying off property as there is staying on property. :)

[MODisFan]

I... when I go to WDW, there just isn't as much magic staying off property as there is staying on property. :)

Agreed!

[tinkbutt]

when I go to WDW, there just isn't as much magic staying off property as there is staying on property. :)

I AGREE!!!

[IWISHFORDISNEY]

ITA about the offsite thing. I really didnt like staying at the Dolphin due to the few little things I was missing. I couldnt afford it anyway so no four seasons for me.:rolleyes:

[simonkodousek]

Edit: I actually posted on this thread before I listened to the podcast (oops!) and heard Pete and Kevin mention that the rooms at the Four Seasons, Waldorf Astoria, and Ritz Carlton (which is the SAME as the Four Seasons FYI) could be had for the mere price of $1,500 or $2,000 per NIGHT!! Disney is not a millionaire's playground; leave that to Las Vegas, or at the very least, Disneyland CA and Disneyland Paris. :mad:

[NDM#1]

I can tell you who WON'T be staying there . . . ME! Well, unless my book does REALLY, REALLY, REALLY well in sales. Even then, though, I think I still have to stay in an actual Disney hotel.

[luke]

Disneyland Paris. :mad:

Disneyland Paris most certainly isn't, at least not in terms of hotel quality...

[FireDancer]

I would imagine that market research was done before the Four Seasons agreed to allot the capital expenditure needed to purchase (or lease) and develop the land.

It might be that the market research done by Disney didn’t show that this type of resort would be sustainable while the Four Season’s research did. This could be a legitimate reason for Disney allowing them to build and run the hotel on property. This way, the financial risk lies with Four Seasons while the financial benefit is shared.

This, of course, is all speculation since I was not in any of the planning meetings.

[alebisi]

I don't get it, why would I stay at a Four Seasons pay lots of $$$ at Disney? If I'm staying on-property I want Disney themed everywhere! It doesn't make sense to me, even if I were a millionare ... I'd stay at the polinesian or grand floridian or contemporary,..... not four season at Disney. If I'm staying off property is to save money. I agree with pete 100%!

[DHS_Flo]

I see both sides for the argument on this issue. I'm not the biggest fan of the outsourcing that's happening around property, but I'm interested to see how the area will be developed. As much as I love Disney theming, sometimes I just want a different atmosphere (that's why I really only stay at the Swan) and the opportunity to stay on property. However, I'm not in favor of disrupting the "skyline" and secluded feeling one gets while on property.

[wildeoscar]

I have my own rant about 4 seasons... but i am gonna compose and get all my thoughts in one place... but:

the Four Seasons is a brand that Disney cannot match for the market segment they play in. to the affinity group that is the four seasons customer, staying at the Grand Floridian is no different than staying at pop century. A four seasons customer not only drops $500 - $2000 a night for a room, but they use all of the hotels services... these are high end business executives, and the true idol rich leisure class. pete and the gang were hitting the nail right on the head with the talk of the bus, this level of customer is not getting on ME... the concept of sharing a bus would not occur to them; but completely missing the concept by thinking this is outsourcing or diluting the brand. these are customers that stay for weeks as a time... a Friend of mine that falls in this category of customer stays at the Grand Wailea in a villa on the beach for a couple of months during the winter... well his wife does, he goes back and forth several times while she is out there, while he takes care of running a pretty large plastics manufacturing empire. He and I have talked about Disney and staying at disney world... and it is not that they don't like disney, it is just that there is no place on property that caters to their situation of needing a business center, to entertain clients, to provide privacy, to show the attention to detail, to be exclusive, etc. that Four Seasons is known for world wide.

It is not that Disney can't do it, but that Four Seasons is already known for it and has the client base, the mailing lists, the contacts, the management team that can put a world class 5 star resort in place and have it running in a couple years. Disney just down not have the experience, or the brand identity to meet the expectations of someone that drops $500 a day on greens fees while on vacation. if you have a Bentley are you going to take it to Midas for shocks or Earl Shibe for new paint (not sure those references will make sense to everyone)? Put another way, would you ask your insurance agent to perform your gall bladder operation? they are two very different specialties... in this case the disney hotels are marketing to one group, the four seasons to another... and they are not outsourcing this hotel, they are bringing in the expert with experience that cannot match in house. Managers don't leave the four seasons, they are too good at what they do and well compensated for it... Disney can't hire in the expertise at this level, because their business model, benefits and compensation package doesn't work in the way that Four Seasons already has in place. I keep coming back to, they are allowing experts to bring in a customer that they alone cannot. The lake Buena Vista hotels? are those hotels outsourced? should disney take them over and run them? or do they cater to a customer base different than that serviced by the on site disney branded hotels? this situation is completely different than outsourcing, the use of the word outsourcing includes connotations that are not what this situation is about.

[NDM#1]

these are customers that stay for weeks as a time... a Friend of mine that falls in this category.

Can I be friends with your friends?!:cloud9: I promise that I could provide them with plenty of entertainment!:jester:

[disneyholic family]

i've stayed at the four season on maui, but i doubt i'd stay at the one at WDW for the same reason i don't usually stay at the swan or dolphin or offsite (though we did stay at the villas of grand cypress one year when i was really ticked off at disney)...

for some reason, i enjoy staying on disney property in a disney hotel...

if however, disney stops providing that (hard to define) 'disney' experience, i suppose i might consider one of the outsourced high end onsite hotels...

[MODisFan]

I agree with wildoscar - I don't consider the building of these hotels outsourcing. The wealth of the people WO describes is something I can only dream about.

One thing I do find ironic about the situation is that Disneyland made a huge stink about low income housing possibley being built near their park (the same people who work for them and/or save for years to take their family on a dream vacation). BUT, they don't appear to think twice about selling Disneyworld property to build hotels for the incredibley wealthy that could afford to come anytime they want.

To me it's just sad to see this happening at WDW. I know it's a bit naive to think that WDW will stay purely "Disney" but one can hope.

[BriarRosie]

I agree with wildoscar - I don't consider the building of these hotels outsourcing. The wealth of the people WO describes is something I can only dream about.

One thing I do find ironic about the situation is that Disneyland made a huge stink about low income housing possibley being built near their park (the same people who work for them and/or save for years to take their family on a dream vacation). BUT, they don't appear to think twice about selling Disneyworld property to build hotels for the incredibley wealthy that could afford to come anytime they want.

To me it's just sad to see this happening at WDW. I know it's a bit naive to think that WDW will stay purely "Disney" but one can hope.

Well...there's already a non-Disney owned resort on Disney's border that isn't on Hotel Plaza Blvd. and not the Swan or Dolphin...

The Bonnet Creek Resort is right off of Buena Vista Drive, and most people who drive by don't really give it a second glance. The Four Seasons location will be just as remote, as will be located back by Fort Wilderness, encompassing the former Eagle Pines golf course. I think most WDW guests won't even know it's there.

[wildeoscar]

ah, but some of the bonnet creek buildings can be seen from CBR, and it does break up the eye line depending on where you drive in from. But Four Seasons resorts of this type usually are low slung, not very tall.

[jcb]

Sight line concerns me as well. This is an artists rendering (from Orlando Sentinel Blog)

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/26/wdwfourseasons_2.png

[DisneyKevin]

Whether you agree with the phrase "outsourcing" or not is really besides the point.

Disney is selling chunks of land to outside vendors and there in lies the rub.

Were this Four Seasons on anything other than Disney property, no one would think twice.

Within a few square miles, we will now have a Ritz Carlton, a Waldorf Astoria (one of the most fabled residence hotels in the world) and Four Seasons.

We have to wonder, is Kissimmee really calling for that number of 5 star hotels?
While we all thought it was weird that Disney didn't buy the Bonnet Creek property, there was not the "sick in the pit of your stomach" feeling when they announced the Waldorf Astoria, as there is for the Four Seasons.

The difference??? They didt sell off part of WDW to build it.

[disneyholic family]

Whether you agree with the phrase "outsourcing" or not is really besides the point.

Disney is selling chunks of land to outside vendors and there in lies the rub.

Were this Four Seasons on anything other than Disney property, no one would think twice.

Within a few square miles, we will now have a Ritz Carlton, a Waldorf Astoria (one of the most fabled residence hotels in the world) and Four Seasons.

We have to wonder, is Kissimmee really calling for that number of 5 star hotels?
While we all thought it was weird that Disney didn't buy the Bonnet Creek property, there was not the "sick in the pit of your stomach" feeling when they announced the Waldorf Astoria, as there is for the Four Seasons.

The difference??? They didt sell off part of WDW to build it.

you're right Kevin, and i stand corrected...

it's terrible that they've sold a piece of the legacy...

there is certainly plenty of land in the area that could have been used for these properties...
grand cypress is nearby but not on disney property....the waldorf, ritz and 4 seasons could have done the same...

[wildeoscar]

agreed on the idea of selling off the land, that has potential to come back and bite them... the amount of space is finite, and time is infinite.

[Mish19]

I am just dreading all the perks that the Four Seasons hotel guests will have. Can you imagine - Super FastPass lines, park days all to themselves, exclusive restaurants, their own character to follow them around all day....Oh boy.

[soupy11]

Whether you agree with the phrase "outsourcing" or not is really besides the point.

Disney is selling chunks of land to outside vendors and there in lies the rub.

Were this Four Seasons on anything other than Disney property, no one would think twice.

Within a few square miles, we will now have a Ritz Carlton, a Waldorf Astoria (one of the most fabled residence hotels in the world) and Four Seasons.

We have to wonder, is Kissimmee really calling for that number of 5 star hotels?
While we all thought it was weird that Disney didn't buy the Bonnet Creek property, there was not the "sick in the pit of your stomach" feeling when they announced the Waldorf Astoria, as there is for the Four Seasons.

The difference??? They didt sell off part of WDW to build it.



It's an expensive gamble to say the least, yikes.


I wonder if the offer was too good to be true? (from disney's perspective?)

[WebmasterPete]

heard Pete and Kevin mention that the rooms at the Four Seasons, Waldorf Astoria, and Ritz Carlton (which is the SAME as the Four Seasons FYI) could be had for the mere price of $1,500 or $2,000 per NIGHT!!

That was hyperbole. I have no idea what the actual per night cost of the rooms there will be :)

Pete

[disneyholic family]

That was hyperbole. I have no idea what the actual per night cost of the rooms there will be :)

Pete

the waldorf in NY is in about the same range as the GF in terms of prices....the four seasons at least twice that...
i'm not familiar with prices at the ritz carlton...

[luke]

ritz Carlton grande lakes is a bit less than grand floridian, but it is quite out of the way so a primer location should bump that up?

[BriarRosie]

I wanted to post a correction to what I posted earlier. I think I had the location of the new Four Seasons confused with the location of either the Ritz Carlton or Waldorf Astoria proposed for the Eagle Pines site.

The Four Seasons is part of the Western Way project, no? I just wanted to get some clarification that the sold land is part of that.

There's so much stuff out there about the gentrification of Disney that I think I had my apples and oranges mixed up. ;)

[MenashaCorp]

I say we only allow these people to enter WDW through France in EPCOT... after replacing the Eiffel Tower model with a guillotine...

Got my knitting needles ready.... ;)

[disneyholic family]

I say we only allow these people to enter WDW through France in EPCOT... after replacing the Eiffel Tower model with a guillotine...

Got my knitting needles ready.... ;)

:rotfl:
(although i probably shouldn't be laughing since i probably resemble that remark :rolleyes1 )

[wishspirit]

I am just dreading all the perks that the Four Seasons hotel guests will have. Can you imagine - Super FastPass lines, park days all to themselves, exclusive restaurants, their own character to follow them around all day....Oh boy.

If they give them ANY extra perks i will be so cross!! :mad:

ARGH!

Back to normal programming!

[MenashaCorp]

:rotfl:
(although i probably shouldn't be laughing since i probably resemble that remark :rolleyes1 )

I probably do, too.... and I can't even knit!! :rotfl:

It's just so non-WALT Disney. He catered to the rich a bit (Club 33, private airstrip,...) but I can't imagine he'd like the idea of selling off land so near the parks. :sad2:

[ADP]

I have to agree with Kevin. When Disney first announced this Four Seasons project over a year or so ago it was a sad day. Not only was Disney selling off a chunk of land for this property, but it was a huge chunk of land in a prime location somewhat near the Magic Kingdom. This parcel of land is so big it consumed the Eagle Pines golf course and surrounding area. We are not talking about just a hotel resort, but there are also time share condominiums and single family vacation homes as well. If I remember correctly, I thought I read something about the Osprey Ridge golf course getting reconstructed and becoming the golf course for the Four Seasons community. I hope that is not true.

This map gives you an idea of the land used by the Four Seasons resort, timeshares and single family vacation homes. It's the spot marked Northeast Resort Area.

http://www.screamscape.com/assets/images/db_images/db_2007_WDW_WesternWay_Map9.jpg

[disneyholic family]

I have to agree with Kevin. When Disney first announced this Four Seasons project over a year or so ago it was a sad day. Not only was Disney selling off a chunk of land for this property, but it was a huge chunk of land in a prime location somewhat near the Magic Kingdom. This parcel of land is so big it consumed the Eagle Pines golf course and surrounding area. We are not talking about just a hote resort, but there are also time share condominiums and single family vacation homes as well. If I remember correctly, I thought I read something about the Osprey Ridge golf course getting reconstructed and becoming the golf course for the Four Seasons community. I hope that is not true.

This map gives you an idea of the land used by the Four Seasons resort, timeshares and single family vacation homes. It's the spot marked Northeast Resort Area.

http://www.screamscape.com/assets/images/db_images/db_2007_WDW_WesternWay_Map9.jpg


thanks for posting that....i couldn't figure out what area we were talking about....
is that near fort wilderness? if you keep driving past fort wilderness, do you get to there?

in the map, what is the light purple area?

[BriarRosie]

I have to agree with Kevin. When Disney first announced this Four Seasons project over a year or so ago it was a sad day. Not only was Disney selling off a chunk of land for this property, but it was a huge chunk of land in a prime location somewhat near the Magic Kingdom. This parcel of land is so big it consumed the Eagle Pines golf course and surrounding area. We are not talking about just a hote resort, but there are also time share condominiums and single family vacation homes as well. If I remember correctly, I thought I read something about the Osprey Ridge golf course getting reconstructed and becoming the golf course for the Four Seasons community. I hope that is not true.

This map gives you an idea of the land used by the Four Seasons resort, timeshares and single family vacation homes. It's the spot marked Northeast Resort Area.

http://www.screamscape.com/assets/images/db_images/db_2007_WDW_WesternWay_Map9.jpg

Ok, that's the thing. I knew the Northeast area was the Eagle Pines (not Osprey Ridge, although I think they could almost be interchangeable at this point) development. In my first post, I thought it was going there. But after hearing stuff on other podcasts (yes, I share the love with other podcasts), I was given the impression that it was the Western Way development that was sold. I'm totally confused now.

Was I right the first time or was I right the second time? I know I was wrong some of the time. :laughing:

[mshoo1]

While I agree with the comments on selling off Disney property, I have to agree that Disney needs at least one truly deluxe five-star resort on property. I have had the good fortune to stay in many very nice hotels--thankfully at a cost to my employer rather than me personally :) . Based on my personal experience, there is a significant gap in the service, room furnishings, and amenities offered by the Ritz Carltons and Four Seasons of the world as compared to the Grand Floridian or the Polynesian.

I have heard several people that I work with (Washington DC lawyers/lobbyists) say that they stayed at the Grand Floridian and were disappointed. For these people, paying another $200/night or more over the GF price is not that big of a deal if they get the service, furnishings, and amenities they are accustomed to.

They also spend a ridiculous amount of money while they are in Disney World. I would be willing to bet that the lead partners at my firm spend up to ten times as much as the average Disney visitor. If I'm Disney, I want that money to be spent on-property--not out in Grande Lakes. This is about alot more than lodging revenue. The high-income visitor is also, on average, far less affected by periods of economic downturns than the typical visitor.

I have no idea if Orlando has sufficient high-income visitors to support four five-star hotels. But I would bet the farm that if one of those five-star hotels is on Disney property--it's going to be a success.

[wildeoscar]

While I agree with the comments on selling off Disney property, I have to agree that Disney needs at least one truly deluxe five-star resort on property. I have had the good fortune to stay in many very nice hotels--thankfully at a cost to my employer rather than me personally :) . Based on my personal experience, there is a significant gap in the service, room furnishings, and amenities offered by the Ritz Carltons and Four Seasons of the world as compared to the Grand Floridian or the Polynesian.

I have heard several people that I work with (Washington DC lawyers/lobbyists) say that they stayed at the Grand Floridian and were disappointed. For these people, paying another $200/night or more over the GF price is not that big of a deal if they get the service, furnishings, and amenities they are accustomed to.

They also spend a ridiculous amount of money while they are in Disney World. I would be willing to bet that the lead partners at my firm spend up to ten times as much as the average Disney visitor. If I'm Disney, I want that money to be spent on-property--not out in Grande Lakes. This is about alot more than lodging revenue. The high-income visitor is also, on average, far less affected by periods of economic downturns than the typical visitor.

I have no idea if Orlando has sufficient high-income visitors to support four five-star hotels. But I would bet the farm that if one of those five-star hotels is on Disney property--it's going to be a success.

Ding, ding, ding ding... this is exactly what I mean when I say that the GF is not 5 star and does not provide the level of service that the High Income vacation traveler is accustomed. Yeah, it is pricey for the avg. traveler... but the cost of the room per night is a fraction of what they spend at a resort at this level. This level of customer is not impacted by fluctuations in the economy, and wants a highly catered personal experience... the hotels managers that can make that happen don't get lured away from the 5 star resorts very easy... for instance the Bartender at my favorite bar in the world, the bar only seats about 10 people, she speaks about 10 languages fluently, conversational in another 10 or so, remembers your name and drink and what language you speak from year to year, works about 6 months out of the year depending on how ski season goes and does well enough to have a vacation home in the wine region of France. Complaints that Disney can do this level of resort if then wanted to... well they want to, so they are going to the people that can make it happen. They could/should have done a long term lease on the land? Four Seasons doesn't go for that in any of their locations. And let's consider Dubai Land... Major Theme parks that are set up to accommodate the world's elite wealth, to get that customer they are going to have to compete, and soon. The WDW/Four Seasons vacation home (fractional ownership) project is racing the clock to get the dollars what would other wise goto Dubai. There, the 1000's of multi million dollar resort beach homes sold out in days after going on the market, before they were built. This is a long term investment that WDW/Four Seasons is making to get the customer that will drop $2000-$10000 a day on vacation and keep them on property.

[ADP]

thanks for posting that....i couldn't figure out what area we were talking about....
is that near fort wilderness? if you keep driving past fort wilderness, do you get to there?

in the map, what is the light purple area?

That is correct. I'm not sure what the light purple represents on the map.

Ok, that's the thing. I knew the Northeast area was the Eagle Pines (not Osprey Ridge, although I think they could almost be interchangeable at this point) development. In my first post, I thought it was going there. But after hearing stuff on other podcasts (yes, I share the love with other podcasts), I was given the impression that it was the Western Way development that was sold. I'm totally confused now.

Was I right the first time or was I right the second time? I know I was wrong some of the time. :laughing:

The Western Way and Four Seasons are two totally separate projects. Both are identified in two separate areas on the map.

[wildeoscar]

That is correct. I'm not sure what the light purple represents on the map.



the light purple at the south end of property is preserved wetlands, never to be developed

[MenashaCorp]

the light purple at the south end of property is preserved wetlands, never to be developed**

**subject to change "in response to guest demand..." ;)

[MODisFan]

**subject to change "in response to guest demand..." ;)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[girli565]

Is there an article or something in print that has all this info about the 5-star hotels being built on property? I'd love to read about it.

Thanks

Also, the map posted above... is there a direct link, I can't seem to get it to show.

[jcb]

The most informative one I saw was http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/business_tourism_aviation/2008/08/walt-disney-w-1.html from which I "borrowed" the rendering picture.

[YellowMickeyPonchos]

thanks for posting that....i couldn't figure out what area we were talking about....
is that near fort wilderness? if you keep driving past fort wilderness, do you get to there?

You can get there either by driving past Ft. Wilderness on Vista Blvd, or by driving north past OKW and POFQ/Riverside on Bonnet Creek Parkway. Bonnet Creek intersects the Fort Wilderness Road to the East of the entrance - turn left and you are there. (It's my favorite shortcut to the MK resort area from OKW - used it all the time for Disneyana conventions.)

[timmac]

I have my own rant about 4 seasons... but i am gonna compose and get all my thoughts in one place... but:

Hey Rex,

Just wanted to say that I think everything you stated here was a very logical and well reasoned explanation. I don't know that this particular deal will necessarily add much to Disney itself, nor take anything away, but as you said, will bring in a new client base perhaps.

One more thought I'd add, is that my biggest concern is the selling off of land. Granted, this particular transaction is a fairly small parcel in the big picture, and it sounds like it might be a good experiment, but I wouldn't want to see that become a semi-regular habit (which I'm afraid it's becoming)