Losing more attractions....

[Horizons16]

I have heard that Jungle Cruise may be going under! I am curious as to if anyone has heard anything about this. IM NOT SAYING THAT IT IS CLOSING FOR SURE! I am just asking if anyone knows about this. I doubt it is going to happen though. If the ride has fast pass doesnt that usually mean that it is a major attraction? Oh well any info would be appreciated. Thanks a ton
~Steve

[toefungus]

Uhhh...where did you hear this? I really really doubt that they will close it for good. It might go down for rehab, but not close.

[OnWithTheShow]

Talk about wishful thinking but Jungle Cruise at DL went down for several months right when they started building Indy.

[Horizons16]

i heard this from another board i belong to...
I doubt they will close it anyway

[marty3d]

Jungle Cruise is one of the most popular rides at MK - I can't see them closing it (not to mention that it's one of my favorites!).

They're spending alot of money on updating the ride at DL for the 50th anniversary - maybe they're thinking of doing the same thing at MK?

[Mooobooks]

Rides you will NEVER see close:
1) Haunted Mansion
2) Pirates of the Caribbean
3) Jungle Cruise
4) Space Mountain
5) Big Thunder Mountain
6) It's a Small World
7) Indiana Jones Adventure
8) Splash Mountain
These rides (and others not listed) are integral to the identity of the parks. They are what differentiate Disney parks from all others.

[Safari Steve]

I don't know where this rumor started, but it couldn't be more false. Scoop sent me a PM in regards to a similar rumor the other day, and hopefully he will post my response on this thread (It was worded so nicely, you see.)
-Steve

[Horizons16]

Safari Steve and everyone else i am sorry for posting this please dont get angry i was just passing it along hoping anyone could give me some info about it.

MooBooks that list....... You're right

~Steve

[marty3d]

and let's not forget Toer of Terror!! (of course they'd have to tear the whole building down if they did that)

[Another Voice]

Just file this one away for reference in about 6 or 12 months.

[Planogirl]

Making note of that AV. :confused:

[raidermatt]

Odds?

[HorizonsFan]

OK AV, I'll bite...
What would Disney's reason be for closing Jungle Cruise?
It moves a great deal of people quickly, the animitronics are not that sophisticated so they shouldn't be that expensive to maintain, it's doesn't take a lot of CM's to run, it's one of the originals, and it's very popular.
Why would it close?

[Captain Crook]

Did you get odds Matt?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[JeffJewell]

it's doesn't take a lot of CM's to run ...the Cast Member to guest ratio on JC is pretty high. You also have to consider that skippers are not your average just-off-the-street Cast Members.

If this was to ever happen, I am willing to bet it would be because of the cost of staffing the Cruise compared to the number of guests Cruised.

Just because something has lines doesn't mean it's cost effective. JC depends on having a good number of excellent skippers each "servicing" a limited number of boat passengers at a time. This is precisely the kind of money-saving project that Disney has affinity for: no one's going to stop coming if JC goes down, it sells no plush, and it's costly in terms of staff-to-guest ratio.I just can't believe WDW would do this under any circumstance. This is where we come back to seeing/not seeing a trend. I think it would be easy to make a business case that JC is one of the less cost-effective ways to keep guests occupied for X units of time, and that the trend has been to maximize this type of cost-effectiveness. I would not be surprised at all if this happened, it fits the trend of valuing bookkeeping entries over guest experience and Disney tradition.

It's always interesting to plot the points where different people realize "oh, crap, that _was_ a slippery slope, after all."

Jeff

PS: Would it be too provocative for me suggest that, had the announcement been "JC definitely closing" directly from Disney themselves, it would have been the 'Scoop who would have pointed out the staffing costs, with excusatory intent?

[space42]

Look at 20k Leagues! That attraction had some of the longest lines in the park and Disney closed it for unknown reasons (too costly to operate/retrofit)

Perhaps in the future, we'll be walking by an empty JC river and the queue area used for a meet and great? I hope not. I never thought they'd close down 20k either (with no replacement)

[Captain Crook]

Spaceman, you really answered your own question about 20000 leagues...It was too expensive to fix or "retrofit". Even though it was a popular attraction it was nearing the end of its usefullness...Seriously, today it would be viewed as very lame, indeed (much like the current brouhaha over the equally lame but historically cool COP). So what choice did Disney have? Redo an aging ride or move on? Now I'm not sure when Splash Mountain came to be in comparison to the closing of 20000 leagues but if the same money could have been used for a new attraction in place of an aging (albeit popular attraction) then they made the right move wouldn't you say? Although I'd really like something in the lagoon...Even a great water fountain/music show would satisfy me...But JC IMO, isn't going anywhre without an unfixable problem in its path. I do not believe mere economics will doom this attraction.
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[JeffJewell]

Its entirely another thing to close a popular attraction just to save money. ...math is math. EE was popular, but by your own arguments, Disney closed it, so therefore it wasn't popular _enough_ to justify the cost. It's Disney's decision, not ours, to determine whether JC is popular _enough_ to justify its cost.

You can feel free to believe that Disney's assessment of JC's popularity to cost ratio matches your own, but my experience suggests that there is nothing "Magical" about JC that would make it immune to closure, if the right spreadsheet came along.

Jeff

PS: And if there _is_ a problem that will cost anything significant to fix, JC is a goner.

[Safari Steve]

JJ,
While the Skipper to guest ratio is higher than that of Pirates, the capacity is also higher than that of Pirates, and the % of utilization is also higher than pirates. Also, CMs at Jungle Cruise are payed the same rates as CMs at other attractions. The only difference is that many of us like to talk more than the average CM. Also, most of the CMs at Jungle are College Program, and cost less to use than the average CM.

Attractions that have gone to seasonal closure or have simply been put out of their misery were either doing less than 50% OHRC most of the time, had a low capacity to begin with, or both. None of these circumstances apply to Jungle Cruise.

[Another Voice]

Wouldn’t an attraction that featured thirty year old phony animals be considered “lame” when there is a whole brand new theme park filled with real animals just a bus ride away?

Seems to me that all those labor hours, all that land, and all those hours spent answering letters complaining about stereotypes, natives, and Great White Hunters could be used for a better purpose. Say like selling plush? Who needs a fake “real-life” adventure when you can promote film merchandise? Besides, closing a popular attraction isn’t going to stop people from coming, but opening up a brand new ride will certainly sell more tickets.

Just a thought.


Oh yes – seems that Skyway, Keel Boats, Canoes, ‘The Legend of The Lion King’ and ‘Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride’ all had rather healthy lines when they were closed too.

[Captain Crook]

It's the kitsch Voice :D ...JC is so lame it is cool. How can you not love the 'lame' spiel the captain's (some better than others) give? And yes, AK does make JC a bit redundant which is why I believe we will see some changes someday, but I still think it'll be an 'event' to casue this. JC is a true attraction, the others you mention just aren't from the same ilk...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[raidermatt]

Did you get odds Matt?

No, Captain, I lost my secret decoder ring. ;)

Seriously though, AV, I'm just curious if your comments are based on the overall trend you see, or if you have actually heard "rumors" that JC may close. If you have actually heard something, it would be helpful to know what you considered the chances to be.

I'm not about to predict whether it will or won't close. But I will go on record as saying that if it were to close for just about any reason, without a reasonably timed plan to either fix the problem, or replace it with a top-flite attraction, I will say its a bad decision. I don't care if the new attraction sells plush, if its good its good.

The only reason I put in a "just about" clause in front of any reason is that if the ride's popularity significantly wanes for some reason, or a safety hazard pops-up, I could understand closing it and not replacing it provided the reason is that funds are being used for a new attraction somewhere else in the park. For example, if the money that it would have taken to fix 20k, or make the site useable for a new attraction, was used on Splash, fine. That was a wise decision. But that doesn't explain why nothing has been done since. Closing 20k was a takeaway, as is CoP and Timekeeper. I know Walt said the parks would be constantly changing, but I think his vision included outdated or unsuccessful attractions being replaced, not left vacant.

[marty3d]

There's one other item to consider - Disney is spending alot of $$ re-furbishing the 5 "Classic" DL rides (JC, HM, PoC, SM and Small World - I think) in time for DL's 50th anniversary. On the one hand it's worth spending $$ at DL and on the other you close it at MK? I don't buy it. If anything, if the renovations to JC (including rhinos attacking and rocking the boat) prove popular, I could see them being carried over to MK - maybe for the 35th anniversary?

[DisOrBust]

Who knows what the bean counters have planned. I don't think we will ever know until "they" want us to. The CM who worked at " Doug Live" we clueless when that closed. The members of the WDW marching band were dumfounded w
hen they received their walking papers

My family loves JC but it is only as good as your Captain. One thing I notice is that it takes a huge amount of real estate for one attraction. Maybe WDW in Orlando is feeling pressure from Universal that Disneyland isn't as effected by...just a thought.

How many years have we been hearing rumors about the "great Movie Ride " and nothing hapens??

[space42]

Splash Mountain opened in 1992

20k closed in 1994 - no replacement - ALWAYS long lines
Skyway closed in 1999 - no replacement - ALWAYS long lines
Keelboats also closed in 1999 - no replacement - lines varied
TimeKeeper closed / went seasonal in 2001 - no replacement announced yet.
ditto for COP

I wont mention Toad and Lion King show becasue both of them have/will have replacements that are at least equal to what had been there.

Point is, Disney will close attractions that are popular with guests. I have no problem with them closing JC if a worthy replacement is announced at the time the attraction closes.



Although I'd really like something in the lagoon...Even a great water fountain/music show would satisfy me...

Agreed - Although I'd rather see a "real" attraction. An E-Ticket for an E-Ticket I say!

[Another Voice]

These threads are growing too fast to keep up.

I put the changes on this particular rumor at 30%. I first heard this one a while back, some more later and then saw it on this board. There’s also a lot of other information that “fits” too well into the picture to ignore. I still see a lot of reasons why this wouldn’t happen, but no hard information that it won’t. So I didn’t post anything about this one, but wanted to drop a hint just in case.

Rumor analysis at Disney (and all of Hollywood) is more like military intelligence than it’s like gossip. Disney is so huge that most of the time related departments don’t even know what’s going on. And the Company is so rigid that an executive can force down an idea despite how stupid the decision seems to be to others. Figuring out what’s true is an exercise of judging different bits of information, seeing what makes sense from past experience, and simply knowing how the company works.

A case in point is that Marty Sklar, the former head of WDI, told a newpaper that he would lie down in the street to prevent the closure of the submarines at Disneyland. A few weeks later those submarines where hauled off to the scrap heap over that very same road. People had already been talking the situation (which is how the question scan up in the first place), and many people had already figured that money had already won over the guests.

It’s not a pleasant time inside The Company now. For the last three years there’s been a running battle between Walt’s Company (Animation, Parks) and Michael’s Company (Broadcasting, Synergy). The basic feeling is that Walt’s divisions have been looted to pay for the failures of Michael’s. Those few who are left feel defeated and disheartened. The fight is gone.

So a major old school attraction being closed to save a few bucks and push some more toys – that idea really does seem possible these days to many people.

[PKS44]

TONIGHT on TCM (or actually early tomorrow am) @:30 AM EDT--watch Executive Suite, a soap opera about the internal and eternal battle between bean counters and idea men...(it's a movie so you know who wins, unlike real life...)

Paul

[Gillian]

Originally posted by space42
20k closed in 1994 - no replacement - ALWAYS long lines

Didn't it always have long lines because it was the slowest (loading & moving) attraction at MK?

[Sarangel]

Skyway closed in 1999 - no replacement - ALWAYS long lines I think this falls into the safety hazard category. Some idiot leaned over too far & fell out... and died. Disneyland closed the ride.

Frankly, I miss both the Skyway & 20k Leagues, but I'm not in charge of the company. And, as AV so rightly points out, there are some real problems with the company at the moment. Personally, I think the time has come for Michael Eisner to go somewhere else. He was good for Disney for a while, but now has caused a great deal of harm to an institution beloved by many.

Sarangel

[King Triton]

Jungle Cruise was Walt's favorite ride. However, due to the theme of Aninal Kingdom, it might be wise to move it over there.

King Triton:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Safari Steve]

The idea that Animal Kingdom might make the Jungle Cruise obselete is one that was considered a few years ago when DAK opened. "Why would anyone want to take a fake safari when a real safari is just a few miles away?" was the common question. It has since been determined that not only does DAK/KS not cancel out the Jungle Cruise, but they actually compliment each other, just as Hall of Presidents and The American Adventure compliment each other. The time has come and gone as far as the possibility of Jungle being removed due to being overshadowed by DAK. That point is moot. It is a non-issue.

The other speculation dealt with an upcoming rehab or necessary maintenance being too expensive... I covered that in my note to Scoop. Again, not an issue.

As far as something else replacing Jungle just to provide a new experience, there were concepts floating around between '97 and 2000 for quite a few possibilities, but they all involved using the same basic infrastructure (same boats, same river, same trees) and adding effects and show scenes to create a new attraction (concepts included Tarzan and <koff> George of the Jungle). These have also passed.

And if you want to raise the argument that Jungle costs too much (resources, staffing, upkeep) and uses too much land that could be put to better use, I'd like to offer you the Tomorrowland Indy Speedway. It uses just as many CMs as Jungle, it uses MUCH more fuel, and it takes up a HUGE chunk of land that could easily handle more than one large scale attraction.

[Another Voice]

But the Speedway has a sponspr to pay for all the labor, fuel and maintenance...

[OnWithTheShow]

Steve, off topic but what does "Worst Episode Ever" and "Your catch phrase is hilarious, please say it clearly for my answering machine tape" mean?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by OnWithTheShow
Steve, off topic but what does "Worst Episode Ever" and "Your catch phrase is hilarious, please say it clearly for my answering machine tape" mean?


I know the first one...." Worst Episode Ever"...its a characters catch phrase from the Simpsions. "The Comic Book Guy"(he runs a comic book store) and is in general the "geek" of the show being a fan of Star Wars, Star Teck and so on.


The other may be from the Simpsions too ?? Or ijust genereal info?

[Safari Steve]

Europa hit it right on the nose. It just felt like time for a change, and I'll probably have a new signature soon.

As far as the sponsorship goes, It was goodyear, then they pulled out, and now the Indy Motor Speedway has agreed to some cross-promotion, but it's not a sponsor in the same sense as Coca-Cola (GMR), Hallmark (one man's dream) or Energizer (star tours). And I don't think that a similar agreement to DL's autopia makeover (Chevron) is possible with Exxon/Mobil on property here.

[larworth]

Steve

As far as something else replacing Jungle just to provide a new experience, there were concepts floating around between '97 and 2000 for quite a few possibilities, but they all involved using the same basic infrastructure (same boats, same river, same trees) and adding effects and show scenes to create a new attraction (concepts included Tarzan and George of the Jungle). These have also passed.

We've heard rumors of possible ride additions to spruce up the current show. Not to remake the ride, but to enhance the experience. You say these remake concepts are now dead, does that also apply to the possibility of more minor enhancements??

Care to share any of the cooler concepts that were contemplated. Plus, you must have some really good ideas of what might be done to make things better that wouldn't break the bank. Love to hear some.

[Safari Steve]

Some of the enhancements (not the alterations that I mentioned in my last post) are still in the works, although they are on hold for the moment. Accessiblility seems to be higher on the priority list right now. That's really all I want to say.

[marty3d]

My vote would be to get rid of the speedway. Try as I might - when I think back to my trips to DL as a kid - I always remember JC, PoC and HM - but I don't remember the cars.

And maybe it's just the fact that I'm getting older - but las time I rode the speedway I thought I was going to pass out from the fumes!

[Horizons16]

Sarangel

Yeah Eisner needs to get outa there. Time for him to take a perminate vacation...
~Steve

[DC7800]

There is a thread over on the LP discussion boards (concerning the May 18th WDW "announcement") which gives a supposed date for Jungle Cruise's demise: January 2, 2003. :mad:

http://www.laughingplace.com/default.asp?WCI=MsgBoard&WCE=T-19104-P-2&Refresh=0511082915

Whethor this is "inside information", someone's speculation, or just a cruel joke - I have no idea. I thought I would pass this along, since it would sort-of fit with Another Voice's 6-12 month timeframe, but it still seems to defy common sense.

I sure hope someone attending the meet tonight is taking good notes for the rest of us! :)