Exception to the "Can always make res at home resort 11 mos ahead of check out" rule

[CarolMN]

Thought this subject deserved its own thread. According to fellow DVC'r dougmatt's experience, if you need to borrow points to make a reservation, you may NOT be able to make that ressie 11 months ahead of time. Here's his post from another thread:

"Careful CarolMN

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You do not need to have points in your account on the day you MAKE the reservation. They need to be there by the time you start your stay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not necessarily true. We have a tendancy to borrow our points alot. While you don't need to have the points in your account for this year, BUT they must be available to borrow from the next!!!

Example:

Use year April. Total 2002 remaining - 0; total 2003 remaining - 50; total 2004 - 350.

I want to book June 2003 for 150 points. I plan to borrow from 2004 to do it. I should be able to make that home resort ressie in July 2002.... MS wil NOT let me book it until APRIL 2003!!! Only 3 months prior...

So if you are BORROWING alot... USE YEAR is HUGELY important.... Some folks may disagree with this, but I know from personal experience that it's true. I have been declined booking 2 straight years at my 11 month window for this very reason.. Even spoke to a supervisor at MS and they explained it to me. VERY frustrating, and not well documented!

So when considering use year, be sure to consider when you want to vacation most often, and whether you plan to bank AND borrow."

Here's a link to the original thread:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190843


I absolutely did not know this and thought perhaps there are others who also would like to know about this "exception" to the oft quoted "you can always make ...... etc." rule.

[Terry S]

CarolMN... Am I understanding that dougmatt is saying you can not borrow your next years points until you are actually in (or past) your use month?

[CarolMN]

That's my understanding of what he said. It doesn't sound quite right to me, though, so I think there is more to understanding the exception as my experience is different than what he reports.

I made a ressie in February, 2002 for an August 2002 stay and had to borrow points from my 2003 use year to do it. I have an August use year and when I made the ressie, I was still in my 2001 use year. If I undestand what MS told him, I shouldn't have been able to make that August 2002 ressie until August 2002. So my experience doesn't mirror dougmatt's. Since he says he talked to a Supervisor, I have to believe there is something else that I am missing.

That's why I posted this as a separate thread, hoping that someone could explain it a little better. I'm actually thinking that maybe MS made an interpretation error of some kind or that it has something to do with annual dues and how they are paid.

Anyone else know????

[Lesley]

That doesn't really seem to be what he's saying, imo. The rules have always been that the points need to be available at the time of your stay and that doesn't have anything to do with when you book your trip. Which is how you booked that August trip while in your 2001 use year.

Say your use year is August, If you are taking a trip in July 2002 using 2003 borrowed points, as long as you will be in the proper use year at the time of the trip you can make the reservation whenever.... August of 2001 at the earliest. Basically if you are borrowed so far ahead that you'd need the following use years' points (ie 2004 points for a stay that's essentially still in the 2001 use year)...well, then you've just used up your points. You can't book with points you don't have, and the 2004 allotment is only available for borrowing for stays that are in your 2003 use year.

Your real stay (not the example above) will be in your 2003 use year....you should have no problem booking it in July of this year using the 2004 borrowed points. If MS is telling you otherwise, speak to someone else.

[Doctor P]

I sent this question to MS: with a June use year, can I access my June 2004 points in August 2002 for booking a DCL cruise for July 2003.

Let's see what their response is.

[DebbieB]

I have a friend who borrows heavily and she has never had a problem with booking at 11 months. She has an August use year, but usually goes in June so it gets complicated. For example, she's going June 2002 so her stay is still in her 2001 use year. So she is borrowing 2002 points, not 2003. She could not borrow 2003 points, the stay would have to be after August 1, 2002 to use 2003 points.

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Lesley
......
. You can't book with points you don't have, and the 2004 allotment is only available for borrowing for stays that are in your 2003 use year......

.

Lesley - I know that you can only borrow one use year ahead so 2003 points are only available to borrow into the 2002 use year, and 2004 points should be available to borrow into the 2003 use year. It seems to me that is what dougmatt was trying to do. Here's what he posted:

Use year April. Total 2002 remaining - 0; total 2003 remaining - 50; total 2004 - 350.

I want to book June 2003 for 150 points. I plan to borrow from 2004 to do it. I should be able to make that home resort ressie in July 2002.... MS wil NOT let me book it until APRIL 2003!!! Only 3 months prior...


With an April use year, his desired stay in June 2003, falls with his 2003 use year (4/1/2003 - 3/31/2004). He wants to borrow 2004 points into the 2003 use year so that he can book his June 2003 stay in July of 2002 (11 month window). MS told him he had to wait until April 2003 to make the reservation. He said he talked to a Supervisor at MS.

I personally think your advice to talk to someone else is the only thing to do because my interpretation is the same as yours. However, it bothers me that MS supervision said no and if that stands, I'd like to understand the nuances of the booking rule that is/was used in dougmatt's situation.

Carol

[Gary K. D.]

Sorry but I can't buy onto the senario. I have never run across a situation where points could not be borrowed to take advantage of the 11 month booking privledge. Unless I am reading the post wrong, whoever diseminated that information is wrong. The only situation that I know of is occurring at the Beach Club where special permission has to be obtained to borrow points and that is only until the Resort actually opens. I have run into situations where the some cast members at MS are not on top of all of the rules and have given false information. So, from my perspective, you should be able to borrow those April 2004 points in July 2002 to make a reservation at your home resort in June 2003. I would want to see it in my documents if I was denied access to those points until April 2003.

[Lesley]

Okay...I was confused by your post and didn't realize who had written what. I still say that our documentation (and others' experiences) says that we can book at 11 months no matter what...as long as the points used are useable in the use year of the stay.

Sorry to hear that dougmatt is having such a hard time getting the right answers from MS...but I bet anything (okay..well, not really...but....I'm relatively sure) that if he calls to reserve that trip in July he'll be able to do so. When calling for reservations the computer basically dictates what can be done and what can't...not the cm. Of course, sometimes the computer is messed up (like with booking January stays past the 28th....in February). But I think there could actually be legal action against DVC for not allowing the reservation to be made at 11 months when the points will be available at the time of the stay....you can't shut someone out of the 11 month window. Actually I think the whole system is designed so this does not happen.

Actually I think I have done the above....I booked a Dec. 2002 trip using 2003 borrowed points while still in my 2001 use year (I'm March). I could call now and book a March 2003 stay on my 2004 points.

[Firefighter Mickey]

I recall that with the old member guidebook (before DVC gave us this piece of junk that contains only fluff for info), this was given as a specific borrowing example that was allowed.

There are actually 2 active use years (if you want to think of it that way). The year you are currently in, and current-year+1 that you may be making a reservation in.

If MS is telling people that they cannot borrow from 2004 to make a ressie in 2003 at the 11 month window in 2002, then either that person at MS is wrong, or DVC has changed the rules without telling anyone.

[TroyWDW]

Borrowing Vacation Points. A member may Borrow under the following guidelines:
1) Members may Borrow up to one hundred percent (100%) of their annually allotted Vacation Points from their next succeeding Use Year to secure a reservation in the immediately preceding Use Year.

There are provisions for DVCMC to suspend or limit Borrowing in order to maintain a proper balance. (I assume this has never been done?)

Just a guess, but I think where some of the confusion may be, is that in dougmatt's example, he states he is trying to make a reservation for a June 2003 arrival and he states that Member Services say he can't because of borrowing restrictions, etc.

The current constraint is that you can't make a June 2003 arrival at your home resort until July 2002 (i.e. this reservation can't be made for another ~3 months).

My expectation is that when he tries to make this reservation in July, the computers will allow the transaction.

Troy

[SleepyatDVC]

CarolMN,

It is funny that Dougmatt (& subsequently you)brought this problem up because my Aunt Mamie thought she also had this same problem.

Mamie is a DVC member who bought into OKW during the presale ($48/pt?). Since year 1 she has always been in a constant state of borrowing. She also has an April use year. She always told me that she wasn't able to access her NEXT years' points until April 1. Since I had frequented these boards since before I bought into DVC, this did not match my understanding of borrowing points. I asked her if she was sure and to maybe check again with MS. She said that's what she had been told by member services over the years (numerous times) and so that's how she plans now. Well, I didn't want to harp that she was wrong and since she had already adjusted her vacation plannning to this quark, I just left it alone.

My next scheduled trip with DH and both my DDs is to BWV 9/14 - 9/27/02. But before then, Mamie and I went on a last minute trip to VWL/OKW in the beginning of March 2002 with some of our kids. While we were there, she decided that she would try to overlap her next family trip with ours so that we could meet up. We were going to try out the BCV. She didn't think she could borrow her April 2003 points until April 1, 2002 but I told her to give it a shot. So, we got on the phone on 3/6/02 and I was able to switch 9/22 - 9/27/02 over to BCV from BWV and she was able to book 9/22 - 10/4/02 at BCV. We then linked our 2 reservations together.

So, she was able to borrow her 2003 points for a 2002 trip during her 2001 use year. She was extremely surprised that she could do this. She thought that maybe DVC changed their policy sometime in the last few years. (I just thought she was mistaken all along ;) and didn't have the advantage of reading these boards.)

So, hearing about Dougmatt's problem seems strangely similar to what Mamie had always been told. Maybe policy HAS changed and some at MS are still confused? Maybe there's a problem in the computer regarding April use years? :confused:

Since, Mamie was able to book before April 1, 2002, I do think that bank/borrow policy that we understand it as, is correct. But the fact that Mamie & Dougmatt had been told the same thing by MS, makes me think that something is there at least. Maybe something to do with the computer program not "seeing" the 2004 points yet?

Since, Dougmatt is asking about 6/2003 and he can't techinically book yet, maybe that's part of the problem? I wonder if MS would tell him the same thing if he tried to book 4/2003 this May? If so, MS was wrong, and he should be able to book 6/2003 in 7/2002 also. If I were him, I would try booking 4/2003 next month just to see if I can.

Interesting situation, I wonder if there is an official response from MS about this matter to settle it once and for all.

[Doctor P]

I'll try to post the MS reply when it comes in.

[dougmatt]

Alot of of commentary about this... Since I have just noticed this new thread I will repost my additional comment below. FYI I was using the orginal scenario as a 'What if' example. This post includes what acutally happens.




Terry
The only clarification I can offer is one provided by MS, that TO MAKE A RESERVATION you must have points available to your account (either in the account or available to be borrowed) to cover the reservation... Still confuses me. I agree with you. You would think If I wanted to make a 2003 ressie I could use 2004 points... But I am here to tell you that you can't!

What's worse is that even the MS staff doesn't understand it well. This last Nov 2001 (my use year is DEC) I tried to make VB (one of my home resorts) reservations for June. I was using some points from 2002 (borrowing since it wasn't DEC yet) and 2003. I was told my 2003 points would not be available since it was more than 1 year out so I couldn't make the ressie. SOOOOO I called back DEC 1 to make the ressie.. I was then told I could not make the reservation since it wasn't 2002 yet and I wanted to use 2003 points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am actually doing an add on just to get myself out of the hole that MB and a cruise has put me in............

Don't know about you, but I have had REAL trouble getting reservations lately for anything inside 8 months so the 11 month window is becoming critical. We always travel during peak times due to my wife's education profession.

[dougmatt]

I'll take that bet!!! Say all your 2004 points :)

(just playing)

:bounce: :Pinkbounc

I have spoken to MS twice with the same issue.. I assure you... It's a real issue. You must not do a lot of borrowing, or once again MS is confused. I can tell you they have been inconsistant numerous times when I have called. Just depends on who you get. Other ex: I called MS at 11:30 AM to book a room, said they didn't have one. Wife calls at 11:33 AM (not knowing I was calling) and she get's the reservation?!?

We tend to stretch our membership a little. ie.. I never stay in my home resort, always book last minute, exchange out often, do getaways vs Dis., ALWAY BORROWED TO THE MAX :) etc..

[CarolMN]

...This last Nov 2001 (my use year is DEC) I tried to make VB (one of my home resorts) reservations for June. I was using some points from 2002 (borrowing since it wasn't DEC yet) and 2003. I was told my 2003 points would not be available since it was more than 1 year out so I couldn't make the ressie. SOOOOO I called back DEC 1 to make the ressie.. I was then told I could not make the reservation since it wasn't 2002 yet and I wanted to use 2003 points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dougmatt - If the above is the actual situation, then I understand why MS said no. You can still always make ressie's 11 months ahead of check out at your home resort. As lesley surmised, it appears that you are trying to borrow points more than one year ahead.

If you have a December use year, your 2001 use year runs from 12/1/2001 - 11/30/2002. That means your 2001 use year points are for stays between 12/2/2001 and 11/30/2002. A stay in June 2002 falls within your 2001 use year.

(BTW, Last November, you were still in your 2000 use year).

If you had enough points in your 2001 use year OR your 2002 use year or a combination of 2001 & 2002, you could have made that reservation. Again, the desired June 2002 stay falls within your 2001 use year.

2002 use year points are good for stays between 12/1/2002 and 11/30/2003. You could borrow those into your 2001 use year (which would cover the June 2002 reservation).

You cannot borrow 2003 use year points for a stay that falls within a 2001 use year.


These rules do work the same for everyone and MS was correct. You are trying to borrow points more than one year ahead and this is not allowed. I know it can be confusing.

I appreciate that you posted the actual situation - use year is confusing to many.

[dougmatt]

Maybe I am not explaining this clearly.. I actually made this very reservation in December but I could not make it until December. The 2nd time I called the CM did not understand the rules either (that was the point about them not understanding)...

I think the confusion is I was incorrectly stating the 'year' of the use year in that I wanted to book the points using 2002 points using your interpretation of the dates. I was expressing it in calendar year vs use year.

Better? (probably not :) )

Point is I wanted to book a reservation within the correct booking window using points borrowed from a use year that would be available for use at the time of the stay, but not when I made the reservation..... K? WHEW! :eek:

[Lesley]

OK, now I'm confused...if what you wrote (and Carol quoted) is correct you were trying to book a trip in 2002 (calendar) with 2003 (use year) points? With a Dec. use year you just can't do that at all (unless you're booking for Dec.), whether its before or after the start of the use year when you call. Even 2002 use year points would need to be borrowed for a trip any time in 2002 except Dec. (when 2002 points will be current). The only vacation dates you could borrow from the 2003 use year in 2002 would be in December. But this has nothing to do with when you have to call...11 months is 11 months.

Honestly though...I think I'd need to see the whole points history to work it out. With banking/borrowing and multiple home resorts it gets hairy.

Also...if you were using any points besides VB points to reserve VB in June....you couldn't reserve until Dec because you only have the 7 month window with non-VB points at VB. Maybe that's why you could reserve in Dec but not before? Had you already used up your VB points? Were you using points from another resort?

It makes a big difference...and unfortunately when MS looks at your point totals they don't distinguish between points that have different homes. I have been very careful to be sure that they allocate my VWL points to my VWL stays and my BWV points to my BWV stays..but I think the only way to be sure is to always book before 7 months.

[Dean]

This thread confused me previously and is doing so again. If I understand correctly, the contention is that you must be within a year of the points to be borrowed before one can do so, if that is what's being said, the contention is WRONG. One can borrow the next years points into the preceding year to make an otherwise appropriate reservation even if you're borrowing points from almost 2 use years ahead. I've done it twice within the last 6 months. I made a reservation in Nov, 2001 for Oct, 2002 using mostly points borrowed from 2003. I did the same in Dec, 2001 for Nov of 2002 again using mostly or all 2003 borrowed points. The only restrictions are that the points must be available at the time of the reservation, all fees up to date, home resort priorities and the like.

The one issue that may be different is for cruises and the like, but for DVC stays itself, the rules are not as implied in this thread. If MS quoted otherwise, they are wrong. Quote from the Aug 1999 member guides lines "Members may borrow up to one hundred percent.....of their annually allotted Vacation Points from their next succeeding Use Year to secure a reservation in the immediately preceding use year."

[Cinderella]

Hi, I have an August use year and did not have enough August 2002 points left for my September 2002 trip so I just borrowed in March 2002, points from my August 2003 use year.

[dougmatt]

The ONLY thing I can say is I have tried to do this twice and not been allowed.

In this case, I was not able to make the reservation Nov 20th, but I was able to Dec 2 of the same year. It had nothing to do with the booking windows as it was still > 7months out, but both were less than 11 months. I agree with everyone on this board that I should have been allowed to make the reservation, but I was not. I am sorry, but I do not rememeber the specifics surrounding the first occurance well enough to post dates since it was 5 years ago, but it was similar and I never followed up, just changed my plans.

The original discussion point was would use year affect the 11 month window. I am here to say that it can, does, and has for me on 2 seperate occasions in dealing with MS, and in other occasions in my planning.

Leaving use year numeric dates out of it, if you try and make a booking during the upcoming use year(200a), and you have borrowed all (or most) of your points for the use year in which you are trying to make the reservation(200a), and you wish to borrow from the following use year(200b), then you (might / will?!?!) not be allowed to perform this action by MS.....

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

As I expressed before, I have found MS to be very inconsistant in their dealings with me. One CM will do something another will not. I thought this was one of those times and asked for the supervisor who reiterated the same message............

[Dean]

I do not think it is uncommon for one to get occasional misinformation through MS. They try hard but it must be as confussing for them as it is for most of us. There is no doubt you can borrow from the following use year even if it's more than a year away, don't take no for an answer. The only questions are 1. are you up to date on fees, 2. booking window and home resort priority windows and 3. would the points be available to borrow at the time of the actual planned trip.

As I said, there may be other issues with DCL, DC, CC, etc. If you're combining points from more than one account, that can also complicate the issues.

[dougmatt]

You aren't borrowing from the following use year... You are borrowing from the use year that is 2 years away! The points are available to borrow at the planned trip time, but NOT when you are making the booking. The answers to your questions are 1) YES... 2) YES Within the booking window is fine... and 3) YES.
But the answer to "can I book" was NO... :)

I assure you this last time I didn't take the no for an answer (much more expirienced with MS inconsistancy by this time), but again the supervisor agreed and wouldn't let me book the first time. When I called back in December thay tried to tell me it was calendar based and I REALLY squeeled so the CM got her supervisor off line, came back and agreed to book it, so maybe it is calendar based and I am up against a wall being in Dec. Dunno, but that sounds even more fishy...

:confused:

[gscott8075]

I booked a cruise in 7/2001. The date of our cruise is 6/2002. I borrowed points from 6/2003 use year.

I made a reservation in 8/2001 for HHI. The date of our trip is 7/2002. I borrowed points from my 6/2003 use year.

My use year begins in June.

In both cases, I made the ressies at 11 month window borrowing points ahead one use year and the ressies were made almost two years before the points use year.

The ressie date does not matter for borrowing - the date of the stay does matter. As Dean stated, you can always borrow one full use year ahead.

[DVC1996]

Originally posted by Doctor P
I sent this question to MS: with a June use year, can I access my June 2004 points in August 2002 for booking a DCL cruise for July 2003.

Let's see what their response is.

I'm not MS but you should be able to do this based on my own experience. I am a heavy borrower and have never banked points. On 7-9-01 I only had 136 pts left in my March 2002 Use year. I used these pts plus I borrowed 114 pts from my March 2003 Use Year for the Western Caribbean Cruise for June 8, 2002.
( I needed 250 pts for just one person and the other I paid for in cash). I later cancelled this reservation in December which opened a "whole other can of worms". Once borrowed, you can't return these pts to their original use year. I had to use the borrowed pts during the 2002 Use Year. So.....we decided to use 240 pts for both of us for the DVC Cruise on April 7. However, I had 10 pts that I could only use for another cruise, the Disney Collection, Concierge, II......NOT A DVC Resort. So....I borrowed even more pts from my March 2003 Use Year in January 2002 for a one night stay at the Grand Floridian on April 11. Please note that I made both these reservations for 2002 during my 2001 Use Year and was able to borrow 2003 pts.

[dougmatt]

Your examples are not the same.. You were always borrowing from the NEXT use year. I was borrowing from not the next, but the one AFTER. ie I was booking a 2002 using 2003 points in NOV 2001 (with a DEC use year).


ARGHH :D :D :D :D :D :D

My use year is Dec so it gets REAL confusing when you talk in calendar dates. Basically you need to borrow not from next year, but the following year to make the reservation (ie 2 years away..). Those points would be available AT THE TIME OF STAY, but NOT at the time of reservation.....

ie had your HHI stay been in 2/2003 and you tried to book in 5/2002 with your use year using 6/2004 points You would not have been able to do it EVEN thought the 2004 points would be available to borrow at the time of stay, they are not available to be borrowed at the time of ressie. You would not be able to book until 6/2004. It has nothing to do with the booking window..

K? See the dif?

:) :) :confused: :confused: :confused:

I think we're sayig the same things,

[Dean]

Originally posted by dougmatt
You aren't borrowing from the following use year... You are borrowing from the use year that is 2 years away! Since you are borrowing the points to the reservation, you are only borrowing one year away. It doesn't matter if it's 2 years away from when you call them. I've done this a number of times including two MS contacts, 2 time frames and actually 5 units; all within the last 6 months.

Here are excerpts from the email I sent them on 15 November, 2001.

We have confirmed for you two two bedrooms at Disney's Old Key West Resort for arrival October 6, 2002 and departing on October 10, 2002. Each reservation uses 96 Vacation Points..........In order to complete your reservations, we needed to borrow 185 Vacation Points from your August 2003 Use Year. Borrowing is a final transaction. You now have 47 points remaining in this Use Year.

[dougmatt]

Your example is not the same either. MS will say sure you can. But try to book in May 2002 (before your use year) using same points June 2004 points for Apr 2003 dates (which would be available to borrow at time of sail) and you cannot.

See the dif?

[gscott8075]

Doug, I was just trying to show what I was able to do with borrowing. I was confused by all of the examples - so I thought if I posted mine, it would show what can really happen!

Given your example, I agree - I could not use the points as you describe. If If I wanted to borrow 6/2004 points, the earliest I could use them would be 6/2003. So, MS would properly deny me the reservation. I could make the ressie as early as 7/2001 to take advantage of the 11 month window. The points have to be borrow-able as of the first day of the stay.

Points can only be borrowed one use year ahead.

It is frustrating - best of luck working it out!

[Dean]

You can never make reservations more than 1 use year ahead and therefore never borrow more than 2 use years ahead assuming the 11 month window. That should make your use year a non factor. With the special lists/ lottery, you could have ended up reserving 2 use years ahead depending on your use year start date and when you wanted to travel.

[gscott8075]

"Your example is not the same either. MS will say sure you can. But try to book in May 2002 (before your use year) using same points June 2004 points for Apr 2003 dates (which would be available to borrow at time of sail) and you cannot"

Doug,

You are correct. You cannot use 6/2004 points prior to 6/2003.

They cannot be used in 4/2003. This is prohibited by the DVC borrowing rules which only permit points to be borrowed one use year ahead.

I am not sure what the confusion is?!?!? : )

[Doctor P]

dougmatt,

As others have pointed out, your example is impossible and I understand why MS would deny it. The June 2004 points could only be borrowed for a reservation that would take place between June 1, 2003 and May 31, 2004, so they would never be available for a reservation in April 2003.

[SleepyatDVC]

I'm pretty sure that the borrowing rules that we all know to be true are true. That as long as you are booking within your 7/11 windows, you can make a reservation for Year X with borrowed points from Year X+1.

Most of us have already done this, myself included, and have never experienced any problems.

However, I do believe that Dougmatt is experiencing difficulties with trying to do this exact thing through MS. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the EXACT same thing also happened to my Aunt Mamie in the past. She had been told numerous times in the past that during Year X she wouldn't be able to borrow points from Year X+2 for a reservation in Year X+1 until her Year X+1 use year came along. :confused: I have no idea why MS told her this.

Until Dougmatt told his tale of woe :) , I had just assumed she was just confused :rolleyes: :D. But they corroberate (sp?) each others story. So, Dougmatt, I believe you! :)

Regardless, MS is wrong. Dougmatt should be able to make his transaction (assuming correct years and reservation windows). In fact, Mamie WAS able to borrow correctly for her next trip.

However, dealing with MS can be frustrating even when you're right because THEY are always right even when they are dead WRONG! Reminds me of the post about Richyams' disappearing and reappearing 270 points! :rolleyes:

[Dean]

Originally posted by dougmatt
Your example is not the same either. MS will say sure you can. But try to book in May 2002 (before your use year) using same points June 2004 points for Apr 2003 dates (which would be available to borrow at time of sail) and you cannot.

See the dif? I knew something wasn't adding up. Am I reading that you're trying to borrow June use year 2004 (in the example) for an April, 2003 reservations? In this example, April 2003 is in the 2002 use year and the answer is NO, Nada, Never, Not in a million years. That would truly be borrowing 2 use years ahead for the reservation itself. You must know the use year you're trying to schedule and not the calendar year.

[SleepyatDVC]

Originally posted by dougmatt
Your example is not the same either. MS will say sure you can. But try to book in May 2002 (before your use year) using same points June 2004 points for Apr 2003 dates (which would be available to borrow at time of sail) and you cannot.

See the dif?

I thought I understood your problem but I just read your last post. And I have to agree that in THIS case MS would be absolutely correct.

Can't borrow points for year 6/1/04 - 5/31/05 into year 6/1/02 - 5/31/03 (which is the year a 4/03 trip would be in). Points could only be borrowed into year 6/1/03 - 5/31/04.

And since it could not be done at all, it wouldn't matter if you tried to make the ressie in 5/02 or after 6/02.

I have a December use year also and it is a bit confusing. Maybe that's the problem or you're not explaining the matter to us correctly. Hope you're not getting getting even more frustrated trying to explain your point to us! :p

[dougmatt]

I knew there was a reason I lurk but hardly ever post on this board :D . I apparently am not explaining correctly.

Actually I think we're all saying the same things, just diferently. Everyone agrees that you cannot borrow more than one year away. However in my specific case (Nov with Dec UY making June ressie) I wasn't allowed to make an 11 month reservation, rather I had to wait until I was in my use year ie after Dec, to borrow points... Which meant I had to miss the 11 month date to make the res ( just over 7 months). Again it could very well be a MS glitch, but this is what happened to me. (twice)

Now it's a little late, but it seems like Dean's MS post is an example of what I am talking about, but the dates are jumbling up...... I'm slipping away!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I give up :p No mas! :p

Good Luck and Good Night!

[PKK/MJK]

SleepyatDVC

Your Aunt Mamie wasn't any more confused than I was. We bought our points back in 1993 so we have owned for a looong time too. We have a June use year. It was clearly explained to us that we could not borrow the points from June 2003 (for example) until June 1, 2002. I understood this to mean that we could not make a reservation using those June 2003 points until June 1, 2002. Once I lurked on this board for a while, I understood that the reservation could be made earlier as long as those points were eligible to be borrowed during our actual vacation stay. Now, frankly, I don't know if I totally misunderstood right from the start or if the rules were eased a little.

I frequently borrow points and have never had a problem. I made a ressie in August 2001 for July 2002 using June 2002 points and points borrowed from June 2003.

We also have a December use year. December use years can be tricky since the majority of the use year is the following year. Dec.1, 2001 points go until November 30, 2002--they are considered 2001 use year points but if you are not careful, you tend to think of them as 2002 points.

[eva]

After reading all of these posts I am totally confused. We borrow quite often and I have never had a problem. We have a February use year. I made a reservation in November of 2001 for May 2002 and borrowed points from our 2003 use year with no problems at all. With the examples that were given, was I not supposed to be able to borrow the points from February 2003 use year until February of 2002? I've always done it like that and had no trouble at all. I'm still confused about the problem people are having because the dates seem to change on every post.

[Dean]

To follow up on my example above. I've actually borrowed almost all of our 500 2003 points from April and August Use years in Oct and Nov of 2001. Previous to that, I borrowed almost all of the 500 points from the 2002 use year while still in 2000.

[thepalagis]

I think the confusion is thinking of use years as calendar year (starting in january) instead of a 12 month period starting with your use month. With a December use year and assuming banking and borrowing availability, point would be available as follows:
DEcember 2001 points: 12/00 thru 11/03
(Actual use year is 12/01 thru 11/02 but I've added a year for borrowing and a year for banking.)
December 2002 point: 12/01 thru 11/04
December 2003 points: 12/02 thru 11/05.
Therefore 2003 points would not be available in June 2002 so could not be borrowed.
Somebody correct this if I'm wrong, but with late in the year use months, you almost have to think of the use-year being a year behind all the time.

[DVC1996]

Originally posted by thepalagis
I think the confusion is thinking of use years as calendar year (starting in january) instead of a 12 month period starting with your use month.......
Somebody correct this if I'm wrong, but with late in the year use months, you almost have to think of the use-year being a year behind all the time.

I think you've hit the nail on the head :) Reading this thread has been mind boggling and the bottom line for me is that I never want a December use year. Ideally, I think it's best to have a use year early in the calendar year and/or one which is close to the time in which you normally vacation. My Use Year is in March and we normally travel in March, April, or June. I've never been confused about borrowing until I read this thread:D

[DVC1996]

Originally posted by DVC1996


Reading this thread has been mind boggling and the bottom line for me is that I never want a December use year.


O.K. I felt bad about posting this and I take it back:) I think once you fully understand how your particular use year works then it shouldn't be a problem. I'm thinking that if I had a December Use Year and I wanted to make a reservation in June 2003 ( calendar year) at my home resort then I would make a reservation in July 2002 ( calendar year) using my Dec 2001 Use Year pts ( available Dec 2001-Nov 02) plus borrowed pts from my Dec 2002 Use Year ( available Dec 2002-Nov 2003).
You can always make reservations 11 months in advance at your home resort if you have the pts available to make the reservation.
Someone let me know if I got this right or not. This thread has become a brain teaser, stretcher, whatever:)

[DVC1996]

[
Not necessarily true. We have a tendancy to borrow our points alot. While you don't need to have the points in your account for this year, BUT they must be available to borrow from the next!!!

Example:

Use year April. Total 2002 remaining - 0; total 2003 remaining - 50; total 2004 - 350.

I want to book June 2003 for 150 points. I plan to borrow from 2004 to do it. I should be able to make that home resort ressie in July 2002.... MS wil NOT let me book it until APRIL 2003!!! Only 3 months prior...



WARNING: Please ignore this if you are tired of my consecutive posts!:) I thought I would go back to the original post to try to figure this out on my own and save my sanity hopefully:) Anyway......DougMatt would not have had a problem if he had pts left in his April 2002 Use Year. He has 0 pts for 2002. If the 50 pts had been in his 2002 Use Year instead of his 2003 Use Year then he could make the ressie in July 2002 for June 2003. He was trying to borrow two years in advance instead of one year in advance. So...if he wants to vacation in 2002 the only pts he has available for use until April 2003 would be borrowed 2003 pts ( 50pts). Sooo.....there is no way he could make a ressie on July 2002 if he has only 50 pts to play with. He will have to wait till April 2003 to make his July 2003 ressie ( only 3 months prior) because he won't have the pts needed till he is able to borrow from his April 2004 Use Year ( not available till April 2003). WHEW! Gotta get a Coke and a snack. Thanks for reading!

[Lesley]

Exactly, DVC 1996. Of course, from what dougmatt has written apparently those aren't the real dates and #'s....and I really don't think we can accurately address the issue without the real dates and #'s. All the examples so far indicate trying to borrow 2 years ahead, which is not possible.

[edith76]

We are long time members with 750 points, 8 contracts spread over 4 resorts. We are usually borrowed ahead. Several years ago I did run into a problem trying to borrow points. It was for a Feb reservation with a Feb. use year. The problem was with the way the computer system was set up. In April (10 months out) it wouldn't allow point borrowing before the new use year began - in my case Feb.1. This problem was fixed.

[Jimbo]

We are long time members with 750 points, 8 contracts spread over 4 resorts. 8 contracts!!! 4 resorts!!! If there were any problems like this thread is referring to, I'm sure you would have run into it. So I'm officially not worrying about this. :)

[edith76]

I would like it to be 9 contracts and 5 resorts but my husband is not going for the NEED Beach Club argument.

[Doctor P]

Here is MS response to my question. I post my email first, followed by the MS response.

We have a June use year and plan to try to take a Disney Cruise Line cruise in
July 2003. Thus, the eleven month window for reservations will be in
August 2002. Given that the cruise will be in July 2003, during our
2003 use year, will I be able to borrow my 2004 (those issued on June 1,
2004) points in August 2002 to pay for that cruise? I am assuming that
the answer is yes because I will be making a reservation for a time
period in which I will have access to those points, but I just want to
make sure. Thank you for your assistance.

MS Response

Thank you for your e-mail.

I would like to assist you in advising that if you will want to make a Disney
Cruise Vacation for July 2003, and you have a June Use Year, you will be taking
points from your 2003 Use Year to confirm this cruise.

For this cruise you will be able to use any points, that were Banked into your
2003 Use Year, your 2003 Use Year Points and you can also borrow points from
your 2004 Use Year.
When booking a Disney cruise the first adult/person in each cabin does have to
be paid on a point basis. After this there are cash rates available others in
the cabin.

If we can assist you any further with planning your vacation for 2002 or 2003
please do not hesitate to contact us.
Have a Disney Day,
Gisela.

[mikek]

I just want to say the use year thingie is sooo confusing!

I get they need to break it up somehow, but you really need a paper and pencil to figure things out sometimes. (Or BETTER yet download the dvc point manager (http://hometown.aol.com/dmfredrick/Download.html) !!!)

I thought my family got confused enough with a september use year, but this thread has my mind spinning!

I've made holiday reservation over a year out with banked and borrowed points so it is definatly possible to do sometimes. THe only thing i can guess is going on here is use year confusion or maybe they are holding up borrowing at times due to that little blurb about reserving the right to curtail borrowing at anytime. I guess every now and again they need to make sure the system is close to balanced and possibly they are doing it at the end of the calander year in December?

[kem330]

I have a Dec use year. Luckily we travel in Dec./Jan! So in Jan/Feb 2002, I made a reservation for Dec 28 - Jan 2, 2003 using my Dec 02 points and borrowing my Dec 03 points. I could not use Dec 04 points as that is borrowing two years ahead. This is where the confusion seems to lie. Specifically with Dec use year my Dec 04 points aren't available to borrow until a stay on or after Dec 1, 2003. With Dec, as stated if you are always borrowing ahead you are going to get caught in it if you don't have any current year points to use, you will only have one year ahead available to you for your next ressie. You can not just look at calendar year- you have to account use month as well. So if I were to stay in June 2003 instead- I would have to use Dec 02 points and could borrow Dec 03 points as well.

[DVC1996]

Originally posted by Lesley
All the examples so far indicate trying to borrow 2 years ahead, which is not possible.


Lesley.....thanks so much for affirming what I finally figured out:)
If I had read carefully your first post in this thread thead then maybe I would have even figured it out sooner:) Right now I have 0 pts in my March 2002 Use Year. I have 111 pts in my March 2003 Use Year. If ( for example) I had called in March 2002 for a cruise in February 2003 for 150 pts then I would not be able to reserve it even though I called at the 11 month window AND /during my use year month of March. WHY -- I had 0 pts for March Use Year 2002 and only 111 available pts for borrowing in March Use Year 2003. If I call this month ( April 2002 ) to make a March 2003 ressie for 150 pts then I would be able to borrow the necessary 39 pts from my March 2004 Use Year. What a difference a month can make!

[Doctor P]

Good point. With a December use year, stays from 1/1/03-11/30/03 can only be done with points from the 2001, 2002, and 2003 use years. Thus, there is only one month in CALENDAR year 2003 that you would have access to USE year 2004 points. Otherwise, you are doing your borrowing during CALENDAR year 2003 by borrowing your USE year 2003 points. I can definitely see why that would be confusing.

[dznefan]

To add to the borrowing confusion we have two different use years(March and June). We have always been fortunate in getting our reservations even when borrowing from both use years and linking to one reservation. We do however have an August contract point add-on that goes missing on occasion. Has anyone else had this happen.

[dougmatt]

:) Logging in today I was absolutely afraid of what I would see posted since last night :). Seems though that a light has begun to come on! I do want to point out that everyone is saying this is a December use year thing... It is not! Most of you probably haven't experienced it because of your vacation schedules, but it could afflict any of the use years, not just Dec. It's just more confusing with Dec cause of the calendar effect.

To edith76: I would expect you haven't experienced this BECUASE you have so many points. You have have to have used all of your current use year, AND any banked, AND be trying to book a reservation in the next use year before you would have this happen.

Doug

[SleepyatDVC]

Originally posted by dougmatt

To edith76: I would expect you haven't experienced this BECUASE you have so many points. You have have to have used all of your current use year, AND any banked, AND be trying to book a reservation in the next use year before you would have this happen.

Doug

Dougmatt,

Actually, edith76 said that it DID happen to her years ago, but that that problem had been fixed.

We are long time members with 750 points, 8 contracts spread over 4 resorts. We are usually borrowed ahead. Several years ago I did run into a problem trying to borrow points. It was for a Feb reservation with a Feb. use year. The problem was with the way the computer system was set up. In April (10 months out) it wouldn't allow point borrowing before the new use year began - in my case Feb.1. This problem was fixed.

[Doctor P]

With due respect, dougmatt, I don't think it has anything at all to do with your vacation schedule, really. No matter what your use year is or what time of year you travel, you can bank and borrow to have 3 years' points, and only three years' points, available for points for a reservation in any month. If you have a December use year, you will NEVER be able to make a reservation using the eleven month window that is in the same calendar year as your points. Your eleven month window for use of your 2001 points will always occur in 2002 or 2003. I think that the most confusing thing might be that you can use 2001 use year points in 2004 when you have a December use year, but you can't access your 2004 points for a reservation that occurs prior to December 1, 2003! It seems strange when you look at it, but it is just the outcome of the normal banking and borrowing policies, I think, and not anything more.

[edith76]

Doug - How do you think I got so many points? We are always borrowed ahead (plus I should add that we own 3 other timeshares that are also borrowed ahead). Plus a vacation or two I've paid for.

The problem I ran into - (a few years ago, but I will use 97,98,99 to make explaination easier)- was in April '97, I tried to make a reservation for the following Feb 20,1998 I have a Feb use year. I was "1" point short of use year 98 points and needed to borrow "1" point from 99 to complete the reservation. However, even though I should have been able to borrow '99 points for a '98 reservation a glitch in the computer system wouldn't acknowledge the '99 points until Feb 1, 1998. MS worked around it and held the reservation as cash and then converted it at seven months out when I could use a Vero point. This is the only written complaint I have ever made to DVC, and I don't think I was the only one. The computer problem was fixed by the next year.

[SleepyatDVC]

Wow, edith76!

Wouldn't I love to be in your family! Sounds like you're constantly on vacation - now that's my dream one day!

[dougmatt]

Looking to adopt a son?!?!?!?

:)

[Dean]

Edith76 brings up a point I'd forgotten. That is that the computer will only show the points for the second use year ahead points in certain situations. I know a couple of year ago I had borrowed points and was trying to get the accounting right. MS had done things differently that I had instructed but it was working out ok (have 2 use years). The only problem was that the computer wasn't showing the remaining points left after we had borrowed MORE THAN A YEAR OUT.

They kept telling me the balance was one thing and I knew it should be another. A supervisor was able to go in and look and said they had to look at a special screen in order to see 2 years out even though we had been able to borrow from that use year. It was exactly as it should have been when they got to the right place in the computer.

[edith76]

I'm guessing, but I think the original problem was that their computer accounted for a 3 year period of points when it really needed to account for 4. Whatever, I was told it was fixed and I've not had a problem since.

Dougmatt, I have a 19 yr old son already who is not too kean on all these vacations. Last week he asked me why we couldn't just stay home for a change. Go figure...In the past year we've been to Tahiti, South Florida beach, Florida golf vacation, Magic cruise and we are going to Hawaii in a few weeks. I guess I over did it.

[PamOKW]

When dealing with the Use Year, keep it simple and it's easier to follow. In fact, MS wording in their reply is the key:


I would like to assist you in advising that if you will want to make a Disney Cruise Vacation for July 2003, and you have a June Use Year, you will be taking points from your 2003 Use Year to confirm this cruise.


To know when to call to make a reservation work from 11 months (or less) from your check-out date.

To know how many points you can use....think how many points you'll have during the year of your actual trip. The maximum is 3 times your yearly total.

I'm not really following the problem mentioned in this thread. The only thing I can see is that at one time there was a computer glitch that didn't allow jumping ahead more than one calendar year. However, this should never have been a restriction on using your points. In any case, it sounds like Member Services knows the system and can help folks work things out if they get confused.

[boardwalk prof]

We also have two use years -- march and august. Whenever I make reservations, our August contract is hiding. Even when I added on at BCV, our guide needed to hunt down the August contract.

I too have a 15 year old son who is getting tired or always going to Disney.

[dougmatt]

edith and bwprof: My 12 yo DS is always psych'd about going.. He plans to work at dis one day as an imagineer.... Hope he can. So no problem there.

My 14 yo DD however is a diferent story. So we try to trade out and vary the choices (won't help you edith :) I think yours is on OVERLOAD!). My DD ABSOLUTELY loved the cruise. The 'common grounds' coffee shop for teens is excellent. At that age they are more interested in hanging out with other teens, than with the parental units... My DD also enjoys VB (get's to check out the guys) so if you haven't been yet he would probably enjoy that (he of course would (should?!?) be checking out the girls) :) . We give her a lot of freedom there, that we aren't comfortable with at the other resorts since it is somewhat isolated.

My ONLY suggestion for edith is a ski vacation during the winter. Spread out the trips and add some variance. My 2 really enjoy the slopes.

Now back to the 'actual' topic. My situation wasn't caused by a computer glitch that has been fixed, or a hidden contract (but has happened to me as well). Rather MS completely understood my issue and told me I just couldn't do it. Others have posted they had the same issue, but Dean has said he has been allowed to do it.. I have copied off his reply from MS and intend to send it to them if I EVER hit this problem again...

[PamOKW]

Dougmatt -- I'm still puzzled by your situation. I just took a look at your original example and I think I might be missing something. Here's what I see.

April 2001-March 2002 -- All points are used
April 2002-March 2003 -- 50 points remain
April 2003-March 2004 -- Full 350 available

You want to book for June 2003. The April 2003 points will be the ones that are current for that reservation. I don't see where you need to borrow. You can bank and use the 50 remaining 2002 points and then just use the 350.

The alternative might be that you are saying

April 2002-March 2003 -- All points are used
April 2003-March 2004 -- 50 points available
April 2004-March 2005 -- Full 350 available

Then you'd have 50 points for the June 2003 vacation and should be able to borrow from April 2004. I can't imagine why MS would find this to be a problem.

[DVC1996]

Pam......

DougMatt would not have had a problem if he had pts left in his April 2002 Use Year. He has 0 pts for his April 2002 Use Year. If the 50 pts had been in his 2002 Use Year instead of his 2003 Use Year then he could make the ressie in July 2002 for June 2003. He was trying to borrow two years in advance instead of one year in advance. So...if he wants to vacation in 2002 the only pts he has available for use until April 2003 would be borrowed 2003 pts ( 50pts). Sooo.....there is no way he could make a ressie on July 2002 if he has only 50 pts to play with. He will have to wait till April 2003 to make his July 2003 ressie ( only 3 months prior) because he won't have the pts needed till he is able to borrow from his April 2004 Use Year ( not available till April 2003).

I think he ran into the same kind of problem with his December Use Year example. I think I responded to this on another thread.
One needs to look at their Use Year instead of the Calendar Year.
MS was right on this one. I know it is confusing. When I first read the post it stumped me too:)

[DVC1996]

The alternative might be that you are saying

April 2002-March 2003 -- All points are used
April 2003-March 2004 -- 50 points available
April 2004-March 2005 -- Full 350 available

Then you'd have 50 points for the June 2003 vacation and should be able to borrow from April 2004. I can't imagine why MS would find this to be a problem. [/B]


Pam...... It's Harriet again with another explanation which may explain it better than my previous post. If DougMatt wants to call in July 2002 to make a June 2003 reservation he has only 50 borrowed points to make a reservation. He can't borrow April 2004 points till his April 2003 Use Year comes again. This is why MS wouldn't let him make the reservation at the 11 month window. He just didn't have the points available for use.:)

[PKS44]

"You may borrow up to 100% of your allotted Vacation Points from the next Use Year into your current Use Year."

The above is from the Member Guidebook but the bolds are mine...While I always assumed it had to do with WHEN the vacation is- the wording is ambiguous---SO apparently someone is saying he cannot borrow from April 2004 until he is "currently" in the April 2003 Use Year. I believe this is a misinterpretation of the book.

I have done this very thing just recently, TRUE STORY:

I have an August Use Year. I made a reservation for January 2003(which is August 2002 Use Year) in February 2002 (which is Aug 2001 Use Year). I used banked Aug 2001 points into 2002 Use Year and borrrowed some from my Aug 2003 Use Year. Now how did I do that if in Feb 2002 I was "CURRENTLY" in my 2001 Use Year and yet I borrowed from "2 years ahead?" (ie 2003)
Because it is ONLY 1 year ahead of WHEN THE VACATION TAKES PLACE, NOT when the reservation is made.

It has to be this way or borrowing is of little help and the 11 months window becomes less meaningful...I believe (and Hope) that the mistake is with those who denied him and not those who let me "get away with it." They really to need to clarify this and I hope make it so you can base things on when you USE the points not when you reserve.

Paul

[Dean]

Paul, go back and look at my quotes from the member guidelines, it's not ambigious at all.

[PKS44]

Dean-

I agree that your quote from the member Guidebook is exactly how the policy should be and has been for me when I made my reservation. It looks like they have changed the wording in the 2001-2002 guidebook that I quoted (page 26). I can see how a CM reading that quote would interpret things differently than if they read the quote you cited...is there a quote similar to the one you gave in the latest guidebooks? Did they change the rules? I guess they are allowed to change borrowing and banking any way they want, though I would think it is actually to DVC management's advantage to have points borrowed (or banked)as early ahead as possible to free up inventory/points to them for their use.

Paul