Howie's Angels

[d-r]

I hope that the moderators of this site will endulge me in posting this, because it has truly become "Disney news" now. I understand that this has taken some inflammetary positions around the net, but it is fascinating as a case where disney fans and the disney fan web sites have become a part of the disney news. It is truly amazing to me. Please recognize that I am not trying to continue the flaming or arguing, and instead, I am interested in what people here think abouit this, because I value their insights into things disney. WIth that in mind, I'm hoping for some logical discussion about what has become an actual news peice about Disney, and I'm hoping it doesn't become a debate or argument. (PS It is my birthday and I don't want a lot of arguing, just some thoughtful conversation so don't get carried away here).

Perhaps a good place to begin is with this article from the Orlando Sentinal:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/orl-aseccinderella16041602apr16.story?coll=orl%2Dbusin ess%2Dheadlines%2Dtourism

The story concerns the web site http://www.readersclubhouse.com . On this site, there is a group who call every morning to attempt to make PS for Cinderella's Royal Table (which we all probably know are difficult to get), and then they distribute them on the web site.

This practice set off a lot of anger in the news group rec.arts.disney.parks (you can look here at http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.arts.disney.parks&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search if you aren't familiar with using a news reader). The consensus there was that this was unfair, that the group was usurping Disney's ability to give out the PS on a first-come first-serve basis. Many posters complained that their access to the site was blocked if they attempted to question how this operated, such as how PS could be given out for days within the 60 day frame if unused PS were canceled.

I own Rita Aero's book, and so should have access to this web page, and went and read some of the breakfast club board. Personally, I think the people are probably very well intentioned, but they are just taking PS from one deserving family and moving them to another deserving family. The family that they are able to give them to is able to thank them for it profusely on the internet, and boost their egos or whatever.

Now, I want to remind you that I am posting this here because I like to hear your opinions and consider you all to be "internet friends" or whatever.

My access to the site was immediately blocked. The blocking was immediate and complete - there was no time for posting to be made, and I have no access to the the site.

So are they profiting off of making PS at walt disney world? Do you all think this is fair? I am just curious about what you all think. Personally, I don't have a problem with someone getting together with friends and agreeing to call in for each other for PS, but this seems over the top to me. It is actually amazing to me.

Again, I don't want to start flaming and arguing - I respect this board for having insightful opinions and I wonder what you all think, and it is an amazing case study to me of how the internet and fan based web sites can take on a life of their own. It is fascinating.

DR

Another PS to the moderators - I also realize that the dis and Pete Werner may have some connections and advertising arrangements or whatever with Rita Aero's site, so I hope not to step on any toes in that way - I am honestly looking for an academic sort of discussion concerning this.

[EUROPA]

Yes you hit the nail on the head when you said it was an Ego trip for them. Add that to the fact that its connected with a site that makes a profit and you have something good that has turned into something bad. Giving away a PS that is not going to be used is one thing., but getting up everymoring like its just Job or something. When is "Howie" going to turn his attention to Fastpassses? Maybe "Howie" would like to come out and control who gets to sit in the front of the Monorail? Maybe "Howie" can start saving large areas of pavement for the parades.

I was reading over "Howies" Breakfest Club page and is claim that they are a very small group that does not account for many of the Breakfest served or Phone calls made...is very short sighted. In fact his number do not even jive. If you went by his numbers...then they have almost 100% success rate of getting though on the first call. Plus what happens when everyone of the callers are able to get the PS....by the time they findout and start to cancel them..its too late for other guest calling in. They will have assumed that all the PS are gone for the day and give up. Another point the "Howie" does not get is that he is quoting the total number of seats per breakfast..well the total number of seats per breakfast are not available for PS's only a precentage of them are. So he is infact hording a larger number of PS's and phone calls.

Nope the best thing to do would to Limit the number of PS to 3/4f of the avaliable seating per day and require a credit card for a PS. Then keep the rest for Walkups

[Bob NC]

I really don't think Howie, or the website, is profiting from this. They just get a warm fuzzy feeling by helping strangers. I have said all along that I think it is completely fair for people to have their friends, relatives, whoever they want call and try to get a Cindy's PS. It is a very hard PS to get so I can see people going to extremes to get one. I can even see Howie and his 'angels' enlisting themselves to help strangers. If doing that makes them feel good, fine and dandy.

My ONLY problem with this is in their "HOLDING" of PS's after the people they were originally trying to help have 'ALREADY' obtained the needed PS.

I have tried to understand the other side of this, but, that is the one simple point I just cannot logically understand. Many people want the PS.....Why do they get to decide who gets it. What makes people that know about their website more deserving than those that don't know about their website? Since every breakfast will sell out anyway...They are not MAKING DISNEY MAGIC. Rather they are REDISTRIBUTING DISNEY MAGIC in order to receive personal adulation.

I have no problem with them continuing to do as they are now with this ONE simple exception: Cancel every PS that you were trying to get for a specific person that is no longer needed.

[barreloflaughs]

My thoughts:

1) Howie and company are fueling their egos:

Lets see... First create a problem (jam the phone lines and grab as many PS spots as possible). Follow up by solving the problem for a select bunch. Collect the adulation of the select bunch.

2) Disney will likely take action to discourage this type of scheme. First, there is the goodwill factor. I suspect that Disney is not happy about the fact that the grumbling has spread from the newsgroups to the newspapers. If they can do something to control this bad press they will (and it IS bad press even though the company has done nothing wrong).

Secondly, Howie and company have, I believe, made a mistake by trumpeting the fact that advertising revenues are taking off. I don't think that Disney will take kindly to their profiting from the scheme.

Get your credit cards ready.....you may need them to reserve your PS in the near future!

carl
barrel of laughs

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Bob NC
I really don't think Howie, or the website, is profiting from this.

Might want to look at that website again. They sale T-shirts...its connected with a Travel Guide about Disney World , the have Ads that pay money to the Website owners. According to one post I saw they are doing quite well in that area too. Who knows if one of them also works for one of the Travel agencys they advertise? May not have started off that way but that is where its at now.

[JeffJewell]

...Disney could stop this by removing the restriction on how early you can book a PS (at the very least, allow booking a PS anytime after you book your Disney resort) and by taking credit card numbers for them. This would make the system truly first-come, first-served; eliminate the insane early-morning dialing race it is now; and eliminate third parties making PS in bulk.

It obviously doesn't bother Disney that this is happening, so there is no one with the ability to put a stop to it who cares about putting a stop to it. Whether it's "fair" or not simply doesn't factor in to this... that determination rarely factors in to real life at all, actually.

Disney set the rules of this game, and the Angels found a niche within that framework to set up their own game, with their own rules. As with any game set up by someone else, you are free only to choose whether or not to play; you are powerless to change the rules.

Jeff

[Mrs. Snowgod]

It seems to me that if one has to lie to obtain something, there is an inherent wrong taking place.

When I have called to make PS ressies for my upcoming trip (no, not CRT, yet), I have had to provide my check in date and which resort I am staying at. Since I am making the reservations for my own party, I have answered those questions. If I refused to answer, would I still get the PS? I don't know, but I infer that there could be complications.

I have to wonder what info Howie's group is providing to obtain these ressies. Are they making up a name, check-in date and resort? Are they disclosing that they are going to redistribute the ressies on a Web site?

Bottom line - IMHO this situation is inappropriate.

[Another Voice]

The “I’m more famous than Osma bin Laden” quote in the article tells me everything I need to know about this man’s personality and his relationship with reality.

I think the real term for this practice is “ticket scalping”.

[JeffJewell]

...you do not have to be staying on Disney property, or even vacationing, to make a PS. Locals would not have a resort or check-in date, but can legally get a PS.

Jeff

PS: Looking back at my posts, it almost seems as though I'm defending the Angels; that was not my intent: speaking as a person who typically plans trips a year or more in advance (and would be ready to book PS's that far ahead, too) I think what they're doing stinks, and it can wreak havoc with a lot of my careful planning when I can't get through until 7:02 and my PS's are gone by then. But Disney is the only entity that can do anything about this, so it seems less than useful to expel much bile towards Howie.

[raidermatt]

I think the real term for this practice is “ticket scalping”.

I agree. The only difference is that in this case, the profit is made indirectly, through ad revenue and merhandise sales.

At the very least, I'd like to see Disney implement the credit card requirement. I'd also like them to at least consider giving an earlier PS window to on-site guests, similar to the way they take golf tee-time requests. On-site can make PS's 90 days out, everyone else 30 days out. The would be another perk that could be listed when people ask why they should stay on-site.

(I say consider because I acknowledge that there is a negative to this, and that is the possibility that off-site guests would be more likely to spend their day somewhere other than WDW if they can't get their PS. Probably a very small number, but unless the practice produced some kind of gain in on-site guests, it could still be a loss. My feeling is that there wouldn't be a loss, and might even be a gain, but I have no data to back that up.)

[DNSDisney]

It is true about them blocking some AOL people. Please refer to my post on the debate board.
By the way , i love the Goggle site.

Sharon

[Snowgod]

I agree that it is up to Disney to deal with this problem. I also think that WDW guests staying onsite should get first crack at PS. While I have purchased the book in question and even given them as gifts, I will no longer support any group that uses lies and misrepresentations.:smooth: :mad: :mad:

[Braque]

Once Disney realizes someone is indirectly making a profit by selectively handing out PS’s to
certain guests, what will stop Disney from doing it themselves?

I like Europa’s post:
“When is "Howie" going to turn his attention to Fastpasses? Maybe "Howie" would like to come out and control who gets to sit in the front of the Monorail? Maybe "Howie" can start saving large areas of pavement for the parades.”

I would not like it but would not be surprised to see Disney offering these select perks to guests willing to pay more for the ‘service’. Would you pay an extra $10 to have a guaranteed ride in the front of the Monorail? How about an extra $20 to be seated in a special parade viewing area, so that you wouldn’t have to fight the crowds? Don’t they already charge extra to view the MK fireworks from the Castle rose garden?

This is all kind of like closing the parks early and then having guests pay extra to stay in the park and ride the ‘E’ Ticket attractions. Hmmm.

[Jimbo564]

Originally posted by d-r


This debate has spread across the Disney-fan corners of the internet. It's almost like there is a macro-community of disney fan sites made of micro-communities that use different technologies and forums. It's as if these "micro-communities" that make up the macro-community of disney-fan sites have became inter-twined in this debate.

I just think the process of the debate itself is very interesting to observe, outside the question of the fairness of the actions of the breakfast club. I guess I'm just an egghead like that. Thanks for endulging me.

DR

D-R,

I am sincerely impressed with the quality of your post. I am also impressed with the amount of research you have done, your knowledge base that you state facts on and your ability to understand human nature as it applies to this anonymous forum called the internet (web sites, usenet, irc, et al). You have most eloquently described this fickle environment we call home, masterfully. My attempt was less than par compared to yours as my statement elsewhere read:

*** "The most common trait I see in most newsgroups is their ability to gang up and beat the proverbial dead horse (glue factory for everyone!). I "subscribe" to half a dozen different ones and this characteristic isn't limited to any particular newsgroup. I believe the anonymity provided by the internet lends itself to this type of "feeding frenzy". It is comical the way they befriend or turn against each other depending on a topic. (i.e. Can I tow xxx camper with my Geo Metro?) I saw a gardening example here earlier today.

I believe one could just throw out a simple comment like "Monday or Tuesday?" into almost any usenet newsgroup and have a fiery conversation, then after that died down post "Wednesday or Thursday?" and see how the battlelines shift.

Now, don't get me wrong. The usenet newsgroups are a tremendous place to get information and is a community of people that -I feel- genuinely can assist people, answer questions and provide guidance. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water." ***

I also do not intend on debating for either side as I can see and (I think) understand both sides of this issue and feel that opinions about each side have been formed with neither side gaining headway in any forum but their own, with accolades to their own (deservedly so as "you're among friends.") But be that as it may, soon enough this issue will run its course and there will be other issues at hand to be debated.

I especially enjoyed the micro / macro community insight. As you can see by my signature I also am a planner.

Once again, honored to have read your posts, on multiple locations,

Jim

P.S. Happy birthday!!

[DisneyKidds]

Braque - hello fellow Hudson Valley DISer.

WDW does many of the things you mentioned. Its called....

E night (as you point out)
Annual Passholder viewing area for Illuminations
Getting access to a concierge (who can get you a CRT ressie, among other things) after paying beaucoup bucks for a concierge room

I'm sure we can think of others.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Braque - hello fellow Hudson Valley DISer.

WDW does many of the things you mentioned. Its called....

E night (as you point out)
Annual Passholder viewing area for Illuminations
Getting access to a concierge (who can get you a CRT ressie, among other things) after paying beaucoup bucks for a concierge room

I'm sure we can think of others.

Couple of points. I don't really agree with all of the stuff that Disney does...but it is thier "place" ... hehe.

Some would say that everyone still has access to those Perks offered by Disney...they just have to willing to pay more.

We are not a communist society where everything is listed as being" Equal " and for everyone. We are capitalist that being said the playing field should still be relative level for everyone. I know it’s a dream. Without "Howie" everyone had the same basic chance to get the reservation. Now they don't. Howie is simply taking happiness from one party and moving it to one that he has contact with and can receive some sort of satisfaction and admiration from.

[d-r]

wow, thanks Jimbo, I really appreciate your kind comments.

DR

PS But I'm afraid that you might have made my point about the irony of my own post....

[Annie&Hallie'sMom]

While I have nothing very insightful to say on this subject (my opinion is that it's ok for you and as many people who will be in your party that day call to get CRT but no more. For example, if you want a ressie for 5, 5 people could try -- although they do not necessarily have to be the people attending. There's no rhyme or reason to this thought other than it seems somewhat fair and realize that you can't enforce it at all).

However, I am incredibly impressed by the quality of posts on this topic. The thought and knowledge that has gone into the majority of the replies is unbelievable! If you were trying to impress me (and hence get me to come back to this board more often, ;) you've succeded).

I'd like to say "well done" to all of you!

[DisneyKidds]

Some would say that everyone still has access to those Perks offered by Disney...they just have to willing to pay more.

Isn't it unfair to those that don't have the advantage of being able to pay more?

If you can pay more you get an advantage.
If you have a computer and know about a website you can get an advantage.
If you are a 20 year old from Georgia you can get an advantage. (BTW - if I took home $58 mil after taxes I'd buy you all a breakfast at CRT :) - if I could only get a @#$%^ PS for 100)

That leads to an interesting question. If I offered you the breakfast but Howie got the PS would you take it? But, I digress.

There are all different kinds of advantages :) (and evils, depending on how you view things :() and people use them all the time. Does that make everyone wrong?

I doubt Howie tilts the playing field as much as some imagine.

Level playing field. Did we get back to debate about a utopian society?

[d-r]

Disneykidds..
honestly, at this point in my life I wouldn't go to breakfast at CRT if you or even Howie was buying - Melissa and I do not have any children yet, and to be honest, it sounds like one heck of a nightmare to me. But I always figure to each his own, and I figure that I will have a child to drag me in there some day.

DR

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds


Isn't it unfair to those that don't have the advantage of being able to pay more?

If you can pay more you get an advantage.
If you have a computer and know about a website you can get an advantage.
If you are a 20 year old from Georgia you can get an advantage. (BTW - if I took home $58 mil after taxes I'd buy you all a breakfast at CRT :) - if I could only get a @#$%^ PS for 100)

That leads to an interesting question. If I offered you the breakfast but Howie got the PS would you take it? But, I digress.

There are all different kinds of advantages :) (and evils, depending on how you view things :() and people use them all the time. Does that make everyone wrong?

I doubt Howie tilts the playing field as much as some imagine.

Level playing field. Did we get back to debate about a utopian society?


Yes I do agree with you on the playing field..It can't be level ...I think I may have said something along those lines? There are many people that don't even get to go to Disney...I did not until I was 27 years old. Is that fiar? Heck if I could I would buy the world a Coke and a smile. :) I personally have no intrest in eating in the Castle. There are plenty of people that do though. The world is not fair yes I know this..but should someone go out of the way to make it unfair ? This is what he is doing...he is stealing from one person and giving it to another. Why does he get to do this? Who give him the Power to decied between little girl#1 and little girl#2? Until Howie came along its was basically as fair as it could be. Reguardless if you think he is tilting the playing field a little or alot he is still doing it.

[Braque]

d-r, it is worth the effort. Especially if you have little girls. Even without kids, looking at it subjectively :rolleyes: the setting is very nice, it is more intimate than other Character Meals. You have some space around your table and the room is not packed with people. CRT is all 'face' characters so the interaction, I feel, is unique. It''s a wonderful way to start a MK day (if you're not going "Commando"). And the food is pretty good.

We have gone twice, and I was successful in getting PS's each time - on my own. (It was a proud moment ~sniff~):p

[raidermatt]

I did MK "commando" one time. Ahhh, those afternoon breezes.....

But I digress.



Most people understand the playing field is not level. With respect to CRT, if you have multiple lines with auto re-dial, you have an advantage. If you live on the West Coast, you have to start calling at 4am, which for most is a disadvantage. But most people undersand these types of differences, as well as differences in what they can afford to purchase.

What most find objectionable in this case is that the outcome is being determined by an outside group of people. Disney set-up a process that is fair, given the above parameters. However, now, somebody is manipulating that system for financial benefit, and most guests don't even know it. Its easy enough to stop, so it should be stopped.

[DisneyKidds]

We'll keep this discussion on CRT, but given a couple comments about wanting to eat there let's argue (oops! I mean discuss :)) another aspect, regardless of whether Howie gets the ressie or not.

We go to CRT. We have a 3 yo DD who adores the Princesses. Honestly, our hands are tied. Going makes her too happy.

However...... other than watching our DD's eyes light up when she sees the Princesses, the place sucks.

Can I say that? Will I be banished from the kingdom for doing so :(?

The food is terrible compared to some of the great breakfast food you can get at other character meals. Pre-plated scrambled eggs, shriveled (sp?) sausage, spicy (and not good IMO) home fries, so so fruit, ok danish. The only saving grace is the cream cheese stuffed french toast - if you like that sort of thing. To be honest, the Princesses come around once and barely interact, and then they rush you out.

Every time we get done eating there we say we aren't going back. Then we start planning the next trip, we think about how much our DD liked it - and it's 6:58 at 60 days out on the phone for us.

IMO, parents will do anything for their little princesses, including sit through this monstrosity of a breakfast. Now, if they are willing to do that is it any surprise most will use whatever leverage they can get in obtaining a PS?

CRT lovers flame away :).

[LAinSEA]

what a refreshing, adult, insightful discussion!

as a sociology minor in college - oh too many years ago - this is a great case study.

my two cents: everyone wants to feel special - that is why we pay for special clubs, privileges, and hope for an upgrade to concierge when we've booked and paid for standard views. Could happen, right?

the problem as I see it is that WDW knows it has the hottest ticket in town in CRT and part of keeping it the hottest ticket in town is limiting access so to speak in holding the princess breakfast exclusively in the castle. If I were part of the WDW think tank, I'd find a way to spread the face characters around at other parks and resort meals - especially the "princesses". more kids and kids at heart could and would enjoy character meals and as a result WDW would make a larger profit.

in the meantime, WDW has a public relations nightmare in the making with CRT and Howie's "solution". requiring a credit card is one solution, offering CRT 30 days earlier to on-site resort guests might be another, or perhaps no PS required would be the best solution - everyone would run to the castle instead of splash mountain and wait in line.

-LA

[DisneyKidds]

I can see the headlines now (which would definitely make 'Disney News') - worse than a football match in England....

...The Princess of Puyallup and five others were injured today in the 'Happiest Place on Earth' during an early morning melee to hold court with Cinderella and her esteemed associates. The fracas began when a large group of royal subjects grew impatient awaiting the official banquet hour at Cinderella's castle. Shortly before 8:00 am, several people were crushed against the rope holding the crowd at the end of Main Street USA as the raucus crowd behind started pushing toward the castle. When the Magic Kingdom cast members dropped the rope to signal the assault on the castle, two unwitting employees were trampled by the ensuing mob. On the way over the bridge leading to the castle one individual was tossed into the moat. The Princess of Puyallup suffered a srained knee as she was tripped by another overzealous subject as the two approached the podium to obtain a table for the elusive breakfast. Fortunately, none of the injuries are considered serious. This is the fifth time in as many days that injuries have been reported in the Magic Kingdom, following the discontinuation of priority seating and the use of first come first served seating at Cinderellas Royal Table....

If they do change anything I hope it is to take credit cards :).

[DNSDisney]

Personally I think the best thing we can do is to continually write to disney guest relations until this matter has been handled and it is no long happening.
I like many others have gotten the standard "We are working on it" reply .
I believe they are hoping it will die down and they can pretend it isn't happening again.
We need to continue to write in masses to get anything done.
Just my .02

[HorizonsFan]

I sent an email voicing my concerns.
For what it's worth, here's the reply...
Dear Mr. (Horizonsfan),

Thank you for contacting WALT DISNEY WORLD!

Your concerns in reference to Cinderella's Royal Table Character Breakfast are
welcome. The WALT DISNEY WORLD Leadership Team is aware of this website and is
in the process of reviewing this information and formulating a strategy to
address this concern.

If you have questions or need further assistance, feel free to contact us.

Please include your full name, E-Mail address, and reservation number if
applicable on all correspondence.

Thank you!

Sincerely,

Linda Smith

Online Guest Service
WALT DISNEY WORLD
P.O. Box 10100
Lake Buena Vista FL 32830-0100

[LAinSEA]

...The Princess of Puyallup and five others were injured today in the 'Happiest Place on Earth' during an early morning melee to hold court with Cinderella and her esteemed associates.

I'm so glad to know I only sustained a sprain...LOL

(It's sooo hard to be sarcastic in text.)

A priority seating is for when you want to eat at a restaurant. If you have no intention to eat at the restaurant, then you should not make a priority seating.

and I have to agree, but wouldn't that actually be a reservation? By definition, a PS is just holding your place in line...much like fast pass, you show up at your appointed PS time and you are suppose to get the next available table for your party's size.

We plan to dine at the "flowers brunch" Mom's day weekend and for that "reservation" we had to use a credit card (and it will be charged if we change our minds and do not cancel). Given that CRT is the much sought after "PS" why not make it a reservation? If it were truly a PS then those without PS's would be able to get "in line" at the castle and not be turned away by the CMs because they are "all sold out".

An idea for WDW dining: bring back the "villians dinner" with a twist...a character lunch in the castle and they can take the "princesses" hostage right at change from breakfast to lunch!

-LA

[Planogirl]

I think that it's a great idea to change CRT to a reservation system! But then also allow a certain period of time to pay for the reservation for those that don't use CCs.

I just don't understand why Disney doesn't expand this breakfast? They certainly have far more demand than supply and why they don't correct that inequity boggles my mind. Is it truly so hard to find people to play the princesses and princes?

[LAinSEA]

I remember someone posting about "face characters" - Disney doesn't want someone seeing "Jasmine" in the morning and then running in "Jasmine" with a different face later in the day. I would think that it makes for a very long day for the "face character".

Perhaps they could spread the "face characters" around a little though - Cindy & Co from "Cinderella" at the castle; Jasmine, Aladin & Co from "Aladin" at another park or MK restaurant...etc.

I do realize that there are a great number of character meals at WDW - but very few are themed in the way that CRT is.

If only the DISers "ruled the world",
-LA

[madaboutMickey]

This is my understanding of the character situation regarding lunch and dinner at the castle. Yes, it's true that Disney doesn't want children to see one Jasmine in the morning and someone else as Jasmine in the afternoon. But only 1 character such as Mickey can be in any given park at any given time. You can't have Mickey at toontown and appearing on Main street at the same time. Cinderella can't be in the castle for late lunch and on a float in the parade at the same time. Why? Because there is ONLY one Mickey, Cinderella, Minnie, tigger, you name it. At least that's what I've been told by entertainment CMs. It's not like having a santa on every corner or it every store. It's part of the MAGIC.

[lrodk]

We will also live up to the falsehoods of the newspaper article. Specifically the allegations that we block out all seats and dole them out to whomever we wish. My nemesis should be careful what is wished for, as the worst thing I can do, is grant it. This policy change is not permanent. Exactly 30 days after the last hater leaves our website, and all hateful action, be it email, post, review, etc., ceases, we will return to our usual self imposed restrictions; it is there where magic lives and spreads.
Until then, Cinderella's Breakfast belongs to us.

We are going to rock your world!




This Howie character is no "Angel", that's for sure. You'd think his life revolved entirely around Cindy PSs. Very sad, and very unhealthy. I feel sorry for the chap.

[All Aboard]

lrodk, I'm not sure that post is from Howie. It's from someone who goes by the monicker "drv". I read through his responses to folks who disagreed with him... just simply amazing that there are folks like him out there. It's breakfast for crying out loud, he makes it out to be life and death.

madaboutmickey...

watch Spectro from Liberty Square and turn around and look in a window of the Liberty Tree Tavern... uh oh, two Goofys!!!

[lrodk]

Thank you for the clarification gcurling. If it's not Howie sending out this message then I apologize to him. But if this drv charcter is one of his Angels then I stand by my original assessment.

[HorizonsFan]

Actually, DrV is the site administrator; Howie is a moderator on the Breakfast Club board. As far as I have seen, Howie has been very civil in all his posts. DrV spews venom on a regular basis.

[Janet2k]

The Orlando Sentinel article states:
- - - - - - -
“Ditchek claims Walt Disney World supports what he is doing. But Rena Callahan, a Disney World spokeswoman, said ‘there is no relationship, professional or cooperative,’ between them.”
- - - - - - -

If that is true, then how come the Breakfast Club has a press release type of statement written by “Chatsworth” (that person seems to be one of their Webmasters) on 4/15/2002 that states the following:
- - - - - - -
“Thanks in large part to the wonderful efforts of our good friends on the RADP (rec.art.disney.parks) newsgroup, the Disney Company became aware of our cozy little corner of the web, and our contact was mutually beneficial. They informed us that our figures are slightly off. We had previously reported that we were helping Members secure 30 of 600 available seats each morning. Disney has shared with us that the maximum booking for Cinderella's Royal Table (CRT) breakfast can be as high as 900 seats each day (some tables accommodating five seatings), with a daily average of about 750 seats.
Our percentage of reserverations secured for Members who requested our help is much smaller than we had previously calculated.
But not for long.
We will be working directly with the Disney Company to help them ensure full tables every morning, by rebooking cancellations as they are released. And in return they will be helping us with anything we need to make magic come true for families just like yours!”
- - - - - - -

So, does Disney or does Disney not have a special relationship with that website regarding Cinderella’s Royal Table breakfast Priority Seatings?

[Mickeyworker]

Does anyone really believe anything they have read on the boards under discussion?

Why do you believe they (board) has a cozy relationship with Disney. We never tell
anyone what attendence, dining, etc. figures are.

Also, I take exception to some of the calculations I have read, about the number of
seats/Priority Seatings, available each morning. Think about this:

Breakfast is served from 8:05 am to 10:00 am (1 hour and 55 minutes). According to
some of these calculations they have the tables turning over 3-4 times during this
1 hour and 55 minutes. That means that the average breakfast takes 20 minutes or so?
I don't think so! This is not Denny's (where you would also find it hard to get in, waited
on, served, eat and pay in 20 minutes, without the distractions of Cinderella, Snow White
Peter Pan, Wendy, etc.)

Also, please think about this. WALT DISNEY WORLD does not need this little man to
fill a restaurant, or handle our cancellations. Believe me, we can do this perfectly
well ourselves. We do have the technology.

It was not that long ago that you could only book this (or any other) character
breakfast only 7 days in advance. There is no easy solution to this problem.

If you want to admit ir or not, the information on the Internet has made this simple
meal a vacation maker or breaker. I cannot tell you how many ladies have told me
that their 2 (or 3, or 4) year old dd will be broken hearted if they do not get to go to this
breakfast. My question is: "How did they know about it". Why get a small child
excited about doing something that is not already confirmed.

I digress.......This situation is NOT DISNEY'S FAULT, which seems to be a growing idea.
I have found over the years, that people will find a way to get what THEY want, no
matter how,or who it affects. No matter what Disney does about this situation, there are going to be people you will find a way around it, or complain that Disney is once again not
playing fair, or Disney is taking advantage, etc, etc, etc.

[DisneyKidds]

I believe they turn the tables over twice, meaning that each table is used as many as three times - once at 8, once at 9, and once at 10. Last PS many be around 10:00, but they serve later than that. In addition, we take our time at this breakfast (read between the lines - we don't let them rush us out as they would like to) and we are never there for more than an hour. I'm sure the average table spends 45 minutes there. Bottom line - Howies math probably adds up. 185 seats x 3 seatings = 555 available seats, give or take. Even at 475 seats a morning, if Howie fills 25 that is 5%. Whether this represents a little or a lot, or is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion - but the math makes sense.

[disneyjunkie]

I'm sure they didn't really expect someone to take that challenge. We all know you can ask 3 different CMs the same question and get 3 different answers.

I spoke with 2 dining supervisors about the # of PSs for Cindy's that were booked in my name. They said they were calling because they wanted to make sure I was planning to use the PSs, if not they wanted me to cancel them so that they could give them to other families. I told them that I was not going to use ANY of them. I told them that I had booked them for other families that were having a hard time.

I asked them if they wanted me to cancel the PSs since I would not be the one using them, they said NO. I asked them if they could change the names they were booked under, they said NO. They said they want to be sure that someone would show up for the breakfast and that the tables would not be empty.

I'm sure they could put an end to this right away if they wanted to. They seem to be moving pretty slow on this issue, I wonder why?

[LAinSEA]

I'm sure they could put an end to this right away if they wanted to. They seem to be moving pretty slow on this issue, I wonder why?

Maybe they haven't changed the policy - as long as the number of guests on the PS isn't any different - so that they don't disappoint the families that are using the "Angels" PSs or any other family that made multiples and then passed them along instead of cancelling them.

and I agree that if WDW wanted to changes things they would do it over night - after all they just cancelled scheduled e-nights for the whole month of May!

-LA

[mattjs]

Does anyone know if the site is still affiliated with Rita Aero and her guidebook? And, if so, has she made any comment at all on this? Either regarding the practice itself or the comments supposedly being put forth by the sites administrator(s)--this drv person.

Many of the other major Disney message board sites as well as other Disney web figures (such as Deb Wills--wdwig) have made official statements denouncing the practice so it would seem Rita Aero would be more or less standing alone amongst that group if she's in support of the Breakfast Club activities with regards to CRT.

[EUROPA]

Yes the site is still assocated with her. She posted a message endorsing Howie and the pratice a few days ago..but I think its been removed.

[DisneyKidds]

I completely agree, Disney is not going to cancel any existing PS, even if they were obtained thru Howie. However, I kind of agree with

I'm sure they could put an end to this right away if they wanted to. They seem to be moving pretty slow on this issue, I wonder why?

They could easily change the policy regarding PS from today forward. No public relations problem. They would simply be extending a policy they already have regarding certain popular events.

I believe that WDW probably could care less who fills the seats, or how the PS was obtained. They are going to sell out regardless, not everyone is going to get a PS, and someone is bound to be disappointed. That's life.

I said it a long time ago when the whole Howie issue came up.... Much ado about nothing!

[marty3d]

Disney shouldn't cancel any existing PS - that would raise the possibility of penalizing legitamate PS guests.

What they need to do is to require a credit card when making the PS reservations. I wouldn't have an issue with it and I don't think most people would. When you purchase tickets to a broadway show, you always have to show your cc when you pick up the tkts. PS should be the same way.

[sthrngman]

They already do require CC#s for meals at AKL to reduce the number of people making PSs there only to check out the resort.

IMHO, Howie and his ilk started of very well intention but it has turned into something completely different. Some people there arent helping others out of the goodness of their hearts, they are helping because they want help when they go to WDW on a later date.

Also, with all the publicity as of late, it has created an opportunity for the webmaster/owners of the site to attract more advertisers and in turn charge more for ads running on their website. This and the fact that they sell "Angel" related merchandise goes to show they are not as altruistic as they once were. It has sadly come down to money. IF they were doing this all just to help others than the profits from all the merchandise and ad revenues woudl go to cover expenses and then donated to charity.

Hopefully Disney will change all this soon.

[DC7800]

Originally posted by sthrngman
They already do require CC#s for meals at AKL to reduce the number of people making PSs there only to check out the resort.

Just curious, but when did this policy start at AKL? It wasn't that way at Boma's last December, or does this even apply to WDW resort guests?

[Pete W.]

For every person Howie and his angels "help" by securing a PS, someone else is "hurt" because they don't get a PS. In the aggregate, Howie has no positive impact on CRT attendance or enjoyment. Can he truly believe otherwise?

[disneycub]

The credit card policy at the AKL was instituted when the lodge first opened. They no longer require credit cards when you make your PS at Jiko or Boma.

[raidermatt]

The Make-a-Wish Foundation endeavors to "bring a smile" where one may not have otherwise existed.

"Howie's Angels" endeavors to take a smile away from one, and give it to another. (and consequently increase ad revenue, merchandise sales, etc)

Anyone who thinks Howie is just doing a good deed should explain this to the child whose parents weren't able to get a reservation, even though they did exactly as Disney instructed and began calling before 7am (4am if they live in the West...).

[raidermatt]

The Make-a-Wish Foundation endeavors to "bring a smile" where one may not have otherwise existed.

"Howie's Angels" endeavors to take a smile away from one, and give it to another. (and consequently increase ad revenue, merchandise sales, etc)

Anyone who thinks Howie is just doing a good deed should explain this to the child whose parents weren't able to get a reservation, even though they did exactly as Disney instructed and began calling before 7am (4am if they live in the West...).

[Buzz2001]

A CC will help eliminate what Howie does but it won't help the situation at CRT. It still will remain just as difficult to get a PS. There is only so many seats to go around. They need to expand to lunch and dinner too.

[Luv2Roam]

All my little princesses have four legs and fur, so LUCKILY ;) this is one Disney dilemma I don't have to partake in.
I also think the cc should be required at the time PS' are made. Disney already does this for the behind the scenes tours and the first night's stay.
Agree that calling for a family/friend who may not have access to the phone at a certain time is one thing. Making ressies just to be making them, and having no clue who may use them is abuse, IMHO.
Rock our world? :rolleyes: Oh gimmie a break. Use that energy on something much more purposeful in life than obtaining an hour long seat at a character breakfast.
Me thinkith that's a REAL obssession problem at hand.