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tydna
07-09-2008, 02:52 PM
Pete,

I just wanted to thank you for sharing an intelligent, educated, and well-balanced opinion on the 2nd Amendment.

While I'm still not sure where I stand on this issue, I loved how you presented your stance.

Thanks for the great job you and the rest of the team do.

snoopywoodstockus
07-09-2008, 03:46 PM
I agree with the OP, Pete.

Well thought out and well articulated. I also agree 100%, if Disney has to allow workers to bring guns it will only be a matter of time before there is an incident.

I shudder to think how many people have them in their cars already, with or without the permit.

wildeoscar
07-09-2008, 05:33 PM
I know this is a charged issue but I think some points have been missed... the Florida law allows competent licensed firearms owners to have their firearm locked in the trunk of their car or in a suitable locking case in their car without fear of retribution from their employer. When competent licensed owners transport their firearms, they are to be unloaded and preferably locked in a trunk or suitable locking case... 'cause that's the law.

this is not a situation where they passed a law making it legal to carry a loaded firearm in your lap while driving... further what is stopping any nut case with a grudge from already having an illegal firearm in their car and going nuts and shooting people? what is stopping any nut case having a bad day and going into road rage from pulling out a pistol and firing out the window? the fact that it isn't happening now does not mean that it will start happening because competent licensed owners following the law have their firearms locked in the trunk or a suitable locking case.

This law does NOT allow employees to carry a concealed weapon into the work place with out their employers permission, but would allow competent firearms owners to have lock them in their trunk or a suitable locking case in their car, where no one would see it, or know about it.

The guy in question is taking a stand for what he believes are his rights. The law in question might be faulty. The Disney Loop Hole might stand up to scrutiny. His action, starts the ball rolling for the courts to decided if the lawmakers got it right or not. It might not be the best system, but it is the one we have.

christygobar
07-09-2008, 05:55 PM
This news story was primarily local to the Dallas area, but some of your listeners probably recognize it if they live here. Today's discussion was timely considering this story that happened last week here. Very scary stuff:

Dallas Random Red Light Shootings (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/16751501/detail.html)

UrsulasShadow
07-09-2008, 06:10 PM
I know this is a charged issue but I think some points have been missed... the Florida law allows competent licensed firearms owners to have their firearm locked in the trunk of their car or in a suitable locking case in their car without fear of retribution from their employer. When competent licensed owners transport their firearms, they are to be unloaded and preferably locked in a trunk or suitable locking case... 'cause that's the law.
No, wildeoscar, the law allows ALL licensed firearms owners to have their firearms...not just the competent ones. The law actually implies that to be licensed, a person is competent. I'm not at all sure that the licensing of owners can speak to the competence of the people they're licensing.

It truly does set itself up for major debate.

Cruz Family
07-09-2008, 06:45 PM
I have very strong feelings about this issue, but for once I am gonna keep my pie hole shut and enjoy the show!

popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn::

Renysmom
07-09-2008, 08:56 PM
:surfweb: :surfweb: popcorn:: popcorn::

dpuck1998
07-09-2008, 09:15 PM
Before I start blabbing...does this new law apply to only concelled weapon holders or to all firearm owners?

fightinfire21
07-09-2008, 09:32 PM
I just have to chime in and say the people wanting to carry a handgun and shoot someone are going to do it weather the law says they can carry the gun or not.

wildeoscar
07-09-2008, 10:05 PM
Before I start blabbing...does this new law apply to only concelled weapon holders or to all firearm owners?

it is concealed carry permit holders... which is not exactly a walk in the park to get. Several articles I have read make concealed carry holders look like paranoid nut jobs... but they serve a purpose. I used to make night deposits, if I am carrying a giant bag of money to the night deposit slot... I think I wanna be able to defend myself.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/apply.html

you have to show proficiency and training, complete back ground check, get finger printed...

*in re reading... it might mean any gun owner, not just concealed carry holders. news articles are mixed on that point.

WaltD4Me
07-09-2008, 10:40 PM
*in re reading... it might mean any gun owner, not just concealed carry holders. news articles are mixed on that point.

And if it is the case that it is "any gun owner" Rex, do you still feel the same?

I'm not baiting you, I'm honestly curious if you feel any differently if the law is just not for those with concealed carry permits.

UrsulasShadow
07-09-2008, 10:50 PM
it is concealed carry permit holders... which is not exactly a walk in the park to get. Several articles I have read make concealed carry holders look like paranoid nut jobs... but they serve a purpose. I used to make night deposits, if I am carrying a giant bag of money to the night deposit slot... I think I wanna be able to defend myself.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/apply.html

you have to show proficiency and training, complete back ground check, get finger printed...

*in re reading... it might mean any gun owner, not just concealed carry holders. news articles are mixed on that point.

Nowhere does the license require mental competence...just an explanation of court charges.

I'm all for people being able to defend their life and property, and can see where if someone is carrying large sums of money around at night that they may need to be armed, but to drive to work? To leave the gun unattended in a vehicle while you work? For what purpose? If it's just to shout out, "I have my rights!"...sorry, not good enough.

WaltD4Me
07-09-2008, 11:13 PM
Let's leave the guns out of it totally. Personally, I don't understand why it isn't the right of the property owner to decide what is and is not allowed on their property.

Freedom of speech is a right, but you can't stage a protest on the property of whatever it is you are protesting...the property owner has the right to throw protesters off the property they own, regardless of free speech laws, how is this different? :confused3

DisneyKevin
07-09-2008, 11:40 PM
the Florida law allows competent licensed firearms owners to have their firearm locked in the trunk of their car or in a suitable locking case in their car

When competent licensed owners transport their firearms, they are to be unloaded and preferably locked in a trunk or suitable locking case... 'cause that's the law.

this is not a situation where they passed a law making it legal to carry a loaded firearm in your lap while driving

because competent licensed owners following the law have their firearms locked in the trunk or a suitable locking case.

First...if what saying is true.....then how would this protect you when you are carrying a bag of money? If you gun is unloaded and locked in a box in the trunk it's not offering any protection.

but would allow competent firearms owners to have lock them in their trunk or a suitable locking case in their car, where no one would see it, or know about it.

The guy in question is taking a stand for what he believes are his rights. It might not be the best system, but it is the one we have.

Second...this is not what this person did. This employee notified everyone that he was bringing his gun to work. Had he kept it locked in a box in his trunk, "where no one would see it, or know about it", this would not be a topic of discussion and the Orange County police would not have been waiting for him to arrive.

This is going to be a "hot button" issue until the first incident where an employee goes to their vehicle, gets their gun, and starts blowing people away.

I would hope this doesnt happen at Disney, but I also hope it doesnt happen at Walmart or Target or Costco....or anywhere else.

JustSayin
07-10-2008, 06:03 AM
Let's leave the guns out of it totally. Personally, I don't understand why it isn't the right of the property owner to decide what is and is not allowed on their property.

Freedom of speech is a right, but you can't stage a protest on the property of whatever it is you are protesting...the property owner has the right to throw protesters off the property they own, regardless of free speech laws, how is this different? :confused3

Couldn't agree more!!!! This is coming from someone who believes very strongly in the right to keep and bear arms. It's private property. They should have the right to ban guns as they see fit.

Disneybridein2k3
07-10-2008, 06:21 AM
This is going to be a "hot button" issue until the first incident where an employee goes to their vehicle, gets their gun, and starts blowing people away.
OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?
Cruz - I also have strong feelings on this matter but I just can't seem to get my big mouth to stay shut, darn it all.

Disneybridein2k3
07-10-2008, 06:38 AM
Let's leave the guns out of it totally. Personally, I don't understand why it isn't the right of the property owner to decide what is and is not allowed on their property.

Freedom of speech is a right, but you can't stage a protest on the property of whatever it is you are protesting...the property owner has the right to throw protesters off the property they own, regardless of free speech laws, how is this different? :confused3
The problem here is FL has actually made a LAW that said it is perfectly legal to carry a concealed weapon in your vehicle so long as it is in a locked case -- http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1877396 -- the difference is you can stage a protest but it is NOT legal to stage it on the property of whom you are protesting (trespassing). The legal loophole Disney has is being strongly and brazenly questioned by one stupid employee. oh, did I say stupid? sorry 'bout that. It appears I have a very strong opinion and a very big mouth. tsk tsk.

tjevans
07-10-2008, 07:23 AM
OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?
Cruz - I also have strong feelings on this matter but I just can't seem to get my big mouth to stay shut, darn it all.


Like you, I have strong opinion and a big mouth. I really promise this is the last time I'm chiming in on this issue (until I can't stand it anymore).

This argument is, to me, bogus. Yes, the car may be stolen or broken into, giving the thief access to the gun, which may then be used in the commission of a crime. Using that logic, automobiles should be banned, because someone might steal one and use it in the commission of a crime. How far do we extend that argument? Should we ban televisions because a criminal may break into a house, steal one, sell it, and use the money to purchase a gun on the black market, and then use that gun in the commission of a crime?

dpuck1998
07-10-2008, 07:30 AM
OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?
Cruz - I also have strong feelings on this matter but I just can't seem to get my big mouth to stay shut, darn it all.

Ya, sounds like that real feasible. How about said crook just brings his own gun...sure is a lot easer. Maybe he will break into your car and grab you knitting needles and poke someone eyes out. Then we have to outlaw knitting needles. Keep making laws to stop criminals that should work, oh wait, criminals don't care about the laws. Instead we will take away all civil liberties from law abiding people in the name of criminals. I think thats how Hitler started his new political party.

dpuck1998
07-10-2008, 07:41 AM
I would hope this doesnt happen at Disney, but I also hope it doesnt happen at Walmart or Target or Costco....or anywhere else.

Kevin,

Do you have any idea how many people are carrying a gun at Walmart, Target and Costco everyday? I bet you would be surprised to find out how many. If I didn't work for a school I would have mine on me at all times. Usually my wife isn't even sure if I have it or not. Saying that because someone keeps it in the car that they are going to get PO'ed and run and shoot people isn't a reason to keep everyone else from having one. If someone is indeed crazy and likely to do that how is a law going to stop them?

I'm not defending this idiot at Disney, because he was wrong and should have been fired and possibly prosecuted. I do/will defend the right to carry a gun legally in all other cases. Those with a permit to carry have gone thru state mandated training required. Those without should have their weapons locked when transporting. If someone breaks in and steals it now they are the criminal and hopefully someone with a permit is nearby if they choose to use it.

Disneybridein2k3
07-10-2008, 07:47 AM
Like you, I have strong opinion and a big mouth. I really promise this is the last time I'm chiming in on this issue (until I can't stand it anymore).

This argument is, to me, bogus. Yes, the car may be stolen or broken into, giving the thief access to the gun, which may then be used in the commission of a crime. Using that logic, automobiles should be banned, because someone might steal one and use it in the commission of a crime. How far do we extend that argument? Should we ban televisions because a criminal may break into a house, steal one, sell it, and use the money to purchase a gun on the black market, and then use that gun in the commission of a crime?
You're right, selling my house for a tent. But then someone could use the tent stake to stab someone with...I just can't be safe here, can I?

Disneybridein2k3
07-10-2008, 07:53 AM
I think thats how Hitler started his new political party.
I think I just got compared to Hitler. :lmao: You have no idea how much that is cracking me up. Thanks for the laugh pduck!

dpuck1998
07-10-2008, 07:58 AM
I think I just got compared to Hitler. :lmao: You have no idea how much that is cracking me up. Thanks for the laugh pduck!

I didn't compare you to Hitler. That would be silly....

Where is that pie anyway....

Cruz Family
07-10-2008, 08:17 AM
Maybe he will break into your car and grab you knitting needles and poke someone eyes out. Then we have to outlaw knitting needles.
:worship:

Okay enough of me keep my big mouth shut.........Lets just face it, if someone wants to commit a crime they can find a million different ways to do it. What gets me, is the cities in this country where the most homicides by way of gun are committed have some of the lowest rates of legal gun owners. People are so afraid to talk about the real problem here, Who are the people raising these animals? So many people have no problem speaking their mind to gun owners, I wonder if they would speak up to teen parents, or woman who continue to have children with no means to raise them other then government support, or the fathers who aren't around to raise them. What about parents who let there children spend hours upon hours playing these horribly violent video games that desensitize them from reality. Or people that care more about their young children cell phones and expensive sneakers then books or god forbid taking the time to sit down and have a conversation with them.
Afterall where do you think most of the criminals are coming from? I doubt many are coming from homes of law biding gun owners.

I have never had a gun nor will have a gun. I just can't stand when people wont look at where the root of the problem lies and IMHO it is with in the wall of the homes our children are being raised.

dpuck1998
07-10-2008, 08:23 AM
:worship:
I have never had a gun nor will have a gun. I just can't stand when people wont look at where the root of the problem lies and IMHO it is with in the wall of the homes our children are being raised.

Thats why I've raised my children to respect and understand guns instead of being afraid of them. Showing them and teaching them about it makes them less likely to find one and think its a toy or an "off limits" wonder to play with.

dmccarty
07-10-2008, 08:33 AM
The individual right to self protection vs a property/company right to set rules for their establishment is a tough question to answer.

In NC a business is allowed to forbid CCW on their property with the placement of a sticker.

The interesting case is going to be when a CCW carrier leaves their weapon in the car, walks into the 7-11 aka The Stop And Rob, and is then hurt or killed during a crime that the CCW could have reasonably prevented if he/she had their weapon on their person.

If a business prevents someone from defending themselves has the business then assumed a larger responsibility for this person's safety? The courts will have to decide.

When CCW first came to FLA I remember the yelling and screaming about how there would be gun fights in the malls and streets. The gun fights where already happening. Anyone remember the incident in the mall in Miami?

The last stats I saw on crimes committed by people in FLA who had a CCW were very low. Must of the offenses were minor and stupid like carrying a weapon to the airport and trying to board a plan. CCW holders were not running around shooting and robbing people.

There was a school shooting a few years ago by a student. The student finished shooting up one school was on his way to another nearby school when a faculty member ran to his car, retrieved a pistol, and held the kid until police arrived. In NC the teacher would have been arrested for having the weapon on school grounds under current law.

By the way, you the public, has no right of protection by the police unless an officer makes a very strong statement to you as an individual. If this was not the case, the police would be sued for all crimes.

Some people have a fear of firearms and trusting people. Some people should not be trusted that is for sure but we as a society trust people with our lives all of the time. On my drive to work today I passed hundreds of cars. Any one of which could have done something either on purpose or via inattention that could have killed or injured me. Getting a drivers license does not vet ones mental stability. Whatever that is.

Later,
Dan

dpuck1998
07-10-2008, 08:52 AM
The individual right to self protection vs a property/company right to set rules for their establishment is a tough question to answer.

In NC a business is allowed to forbid CCW on their property with the placement of a sticker.

The interesting case is going to be when a CCW carrier leaves their weapon in the car, walks into the 7-11 aka The Stop And Rob, and is then hurt or killed during a crime that the CCW could have reasonably prevented if he/she had their weapon on their person.

If a business prevents someone from defending themselves has the business then assumed a larger responsibility for this person's safety? The courts will have to decide.

When CCW first came to FLA I remember the yelling and screaming about how there would be gun fights in the malls and streets. The gun fights where already happening. Anyone remember the incident in the mall in Miami?

The last stats I saw on crimes committed by people in FLA who had a CCW were very low. Must of the offenses were minor and stupid like carrying a weapon to the airport and trying to board a plan. CCW holders were not running around shooting and robbing people.

There was a school shooting a few years ago by a student. The student finished shooting up one school was on his way to another nearby school when a faculty member ran to his car, retrieved a pistol, and held the kid until police arrived. In NC the teacher would have been arrested for having the weapon on school grounds under current law.

By the way, you the public, has no right of protection by the police unless an officer makes a very strong statement to you as an individual. If this was not the case, the police would be sued for all crimes.

Some people have a fear of firearms and trusting people. Some people should not be trusted that is for sure but we as a society trust people with our lives all of the time. On my drive to work today I passed hundreds of cars. Any one of which could have done something either on purpose or via inattention that could have killed or injured me. Getting a drivers license does not vet ones mental stability. Whatever that is.

Later,
Dan

Bravo Dan! :thumbsup2

wildeoscar
07-10-2008, 10:31 AM
First...if what saying is true.....then how would this protect you when you are carrying a bag of money? If you gun is unloaded and locked in a box in the trunk it's not offering any protection.


when carrying money, it was not locked up... it was on my person. if you do not have a concealed carry permit, this would not be legal.


Second...this is not what this person did. This employee notified everyone that he was bringing his gun to work. Had he kept it locked in a box in his trunk, "where no one would see it, or know about it", this would not be a topic of discussion and the Orange County police would not have been waiting for him to arrive.

This guy was standing up for his rights, and grandstanding, probably at the encouragement of the NRA, so they could get this in front of judges. I don't agree with how he did what he did, but I understand why.


This is going to be a "hot button" issue until the first incident where an employee goes to their vehicle, gets their gun, and starts blowing people away.

there really isn't anything stopping this from happening now other than is it against the law to kill people.

I would hope this doesnt happen at Disney, but I also hope it doesnt happen at Walmart or Target or Costco....or anywhere else.

so the law is in place, and the next time a nut job goes off shooting people will this law be the reason the guy went nuts? these kinda things are already rare and horrible tragedies. heck the Pope came out for a ban on assault weapons saying something to the effect that these weapons are so horrible surely this will end war. it was Pope Urban II in the 9th Century talking about the crossbow. (I didn't look up the exact quote, cause I have not had much coffee yet) If everyone else was willing to give up all their guns, I'd have no problem with it... but we have this rule book that we choose to follow and it was this pesky second amendment. this whole situation is gonna play out in the courts, and Florida has a long history of liberal (little L, not the big L) does anyone remember the make my day law? the argument against was that it would lead to shoot outs in daycare parking lots, has there been a sudden rash of shoot outs in daycare parking lots I am missing?

we agree on this more than we disagree, but for different reasons. I don't think breathing should be the litmus test on carrying a gun, or possessing a gun... I have no problem with tight rules, it is when you ban them en mass you are saying no one can be trusted... there are smart responsible people that like to target shoot. if ya wanna keep your firearm locked away while at work, and are responsible, then wanna go poke holes in paper after work that's fine. but what you are saying is that everyone is on the verge of snapping and going on a shooting spree at any min. at work? well that is not happening now, and this law is not going to change that.

wildeoscar
07-10-2008, 10:59 AM
OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?
Cruz - I also have strong feelings on this matter but I just can't seem to get my big mouth to stay shut, darn it all.

Reasonable people can disagree. I'm cool with what you are saying, it is just that, it hasn't happened and is very rare. Do you stop putting money in banks because banks get robbed? You are not going to get into the lock box in my car, well you might have a cutting torch in your pocket but Mostly because it is really rare that I would leave it there. I don't have a second amendment sticker on my car, cause I am not tipping any one off about the fact there might be a gun in my car.

I just got back from a week of camping and backpacking in the mountains with a rifle and a hand gun, that we took for target shooting. around the "campfire" we got asked about what we were up to and told camping neighbors that we went target shooting and mt. biking on a neighboring mt. no one went nuts are started killing people, though we did kill a few brain cells with beer and smores.

thieves are stupid and crimes are usually about convenience, hence the term convenience store. car breakins are usually smash and grab of something in plain view. if something outrageous happens, you are welcome to throw dole whip at me for hours.

pta-mom
07-10-2008, 11:53 AM
Being Canadian, we do not have the same laws in regards to guns so I truly don't really understand all the "feeling" behind owning guns, carrying guns, using guns.... honestly, I know NO ONE who grew up with guns in their home other than perhaps an occasional hunting rifle.

I am curious why it seems to be so important that you are able to carry a concealed weapon in a locked carrying case in a locked trunk? What for? Why do people need this while shopping at Walmart, visiting the local 7-11 or working at DW?

Honestly, I am not trying to start a gun bash thread or any other....I just don't understand why anyone, other than someone's job who must have a gun, or someone going hunting, would need a gun in their trunk. :confused3

dmccarty
07-10-2008, 03:14 PM
I am curious why it seems to be so important that you are able to carry a concealed weapon in a locked carrying case in a locked trunk? What for? Why do people need this while shopping at Walmart, visiting the local 7-11 or working at DW?


Its not that people want to carry the weapon in a locked case in the car but that its what the new law allows. If you have a permit to CCW in FLA and you carry while on the way to work, what do you do when you get to the work place that does not allow you to carry the weapon INTO work?

In effect the company has given you a choice. Either work here under our rules which prevent you from legally protecting yourself. Or don't work here. Not really good options either way. The new FLA law says you can lock the weapon up in YOUR car while at work. That is all. It does not say you can carry into the building. There is a loop holes in the law, one of which is regarding fireworks at a place of business. WDW is trying to use this loophole to prevent CM from locking a weapon up in their car.

The CM in this case is saying that the WDW use of the loophole is bogus since WDW business purpose is not fireworks and he is not near fireworks. Disney is just using that loophole to prevent him from protecting himself.

Thus he set himself up to be charged so the courts will resolve the issue.

As I said in my earlier note its really a question of who has more rights/responsibilities? The company or the individual? The law split the issue and said if you have a CCW then you can carry to work and leave the weapon in the car.

7-11's and other convenience stores are called Stop And Robs for a reason. About ten years ago a guy went into a Stop and Rob and got in line at the cashier. He waited patiently in line and when it was his turn he pulled a gun and threatened the clerk. Unfortunately for the the thug, and fortunately for the clerk and other customers, the man standing behind the thug was the Sheriff of the county. The Sheriff has been in office for decades and still is. The thug should have recognized him but alas did not.

The Sheriff shot the thug six times and killed him. The Sheriff was not going to let the thug sing "I shot the Sheriff."

Crimes happen all over the place. In my little town the Stop and Rob I go to from time to time was robbed a few months ago as have others in town. The grocery store was even robbed one early morning. Crimes including murder have happened at Walmart's in my area.

Later,
Dan

pta-mom
07-10-2008, 04:06 PM
But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them? (Yes, I get police, military, etc) But for the average citizen, what are all these people with guns "legally protecting themselves" from? Is it REALLY so bad in the states (Florida, or wherever) that the average person feels they must pack a weapon when they go to the corner store? Or work? Or the parks? Is it just that you really think it's safer that EVERYONE has a gun to even up the playing field?

I know that sometimes stores are robbed, crazy people start shooting in schools, people are murdered walking down the street...but do you feel so threatened in your environment that you think it is a LIKELIHOOD that you will need to protect yourself, only by use of a gun? And how does having that in your trunk help in any way? What difference would it make if you are in a 7-11 that is being robbed if the gun is in the trunk?

It's interesting...I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be terrified now to visit Florida because of all these nasty people who intend to potentially harm me for the fun of it or to fear all these armed individuals who might start shooting to protect themselves. I am unbelievably dumb founded that any number of individuals I pass (or cars) may have a concealed weapon on them. And honestly, I'm still not understanding why there are so many average citizens who feel they need one.

Thanks Dan for trying to explain that but I guess it's just a bit of a culture thing. It's hard I think for me to go from knowing no one who has a gun to understanding why seemingly everyone would want one. I appreciate your response though! :upsidedow

Cruz Family
07-10-2008, 05:49 PM
But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them? (Yes, I get police, military, etc) But for the average citizen, what are all these people with guns "legally protecting themselves" from? Is it REALLY so bad in the states (Florida, or wherever) that the average person feels they must pack a weapon when they go to the corner store? Or work? Or the parks? Is it just that you really think it's safer that EVERYONE has a gun to even up the playing field?

I know that sometimes stores are robbed, crazy people start shooting in schools, people are murdered walking down the street...but do you feel so threatened in your environment that you think it is a LIKELIHOOD that you will need to protect yourself, only by use of a gun? And how does having that in your trunk help in any way? What difference would it make if you are in a 7-11 that is being robbed if the gun is in the trunk?

It's interesting...I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be terrified now to visit Florida because of all these nasty people who intend to potentially harm me for the fun of it or to fear all these armed individuals who might start shooting to protect themselves. I am unbelievably dumb founded that any number of individuals I pass (or cars) may have a concealed weapon on them. And honestly, I'm still not understanding why there are so many average citizens who feel they need one.

Thanks Dan for trying to explain that but I guess it's just a bit of a culture thing. It's hard I think for me to go from knowing no one who has a gun to understanding why seemingly everyone would want one. I appreciate your response though! :upsidedow


I understand you being afraid, but what I don't understand why you are so terrified by people carrying guns legally. I would be more worried about the criminals who have been, and will continue to carry guns with absolutely no regard to any laws in place.:confused3

Paging Tom Morrow
07-10-2008, 08:43 PM
OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?

Personally, I think it would be much more likely that said gun owners sees someone being physically assaulted/threatened by a gun. He runs to where he keep his locked gun, grabs it and saves lives.

Of course, I've actually read about the above story happening. The gentleman's name was Mark Allen Wilson, and he died saving others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson

I've never read about yours, but I would agree that your "story" would get better ratings on TV and sell more newspapers.

pta-mom
07-10-2008, 10:26 PM
I understand you being afraid, but what I don't understand why you are so terrified by people carrying guns legally. I would be more worried about the criminals who have been, and will continue to carry guns with absolutely no regard to any laws in place.:confused3

Well again, admitting to the reality of not having a very good understanding of guns to start with, I'm not sure that just because someone has the right to "carry guns legally" necessarily means that they are sane, trained & in the right frame of mind at any particular moment. I also think that *many* people with the ability to shoot guns near me are more apt to hit me than if most people don't have a gun with them.

For example....though I live in a city of near a million people, & actually do know personally of a young lady who was killed by a gun yeilding crazy person, I actually have NO FEAR WHATSEVER of anyone shooting me. Not to say it *couldn't* happen, just highly unlikely. Why? Because a very small population of those around me have a firearm...yes, probably mostly criminals. But, if only one in 1000 people (criminals & police) have guns, that means I only have less than a one in 1000 chance of being shot. If the *average* person in Florida has a gun (& I'm not saying they do, just saying *if* they did), that's a lot of people with guns, a lot higher chance of my being shot, either maliciously or accidentily.

Really, this has nothing to do with my "fear" as I really don't have any regarding this issue. I guess for me, I'm still just stuck on why the average person feels the need to carry a concealed a weapon. I think this would have a lot less to do with *my* fear & more to do with theirs.

wildeoscar
07-11-2008, 01:05 AM
But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them?

this was the point i wanted to make early on... Pete's characterization of the situation is that people can now carry guns into work... THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS LAW IS ABOUT. What this law allows for is that you can have your firearm locked in your car, while at work with out fear of retribution from your employer. Locked in a car, not carried into work.

Why has nothing to do with it... why climb a mountain, why go swimming, why dance when no one is watching... "why" doesn't matter.

if you don't see it and don't hear it, and it makes them feel safe, and they are properly licensed, they get to carry a weapon. Concealed carry is not like getting a drivers license, you have to show proficiency and training, submit to an extensive back ground check, get finger printed, etc. is it perfect, no, are their any instances of folks that concealed carry going nuts and killing people or shooting up play grounds, nope. over and over again it boils down to a complete misunderstanding and fears/phobias that are not based in reality. It is not happening now, the only thing the law changes is that your employer can't fire you for having your firearm LOCKED IN YOUR CAR. nothing to do with taking a gun into work.

JustSayin
07-11-2008, 01:11 AM
I finally had a chance to actually listen to the podcast, and I would like to applaud Pete for his “rant”. I thought his expression of his opinion was very reasonable. I may (or may not) agree with some of his opinions on the gun issue, but I agree 100% that Disney (and any other employer) has the right to ban weapons on their property,

This law is an assault on private property rights. Nobody is forcing you to be a Disney employee. If you truly feel the need to carry a gun in your car, go work somewhere that doesn’t have an issue with you having one on their property.

Although I currently do not own a gun, I grew up in a house with guns, and I believe strongly in your right to own and carry (with reasonable regulation) guns, but that is COMPLETELY not the issue here.

Disneybridein2k3
07-11-2008, 06:19 AM
Reasonable people can disagree. I'm cool with what you are saying, it is just that, it hasn't happened and is very rare. Do you stop putting money in banks because banks get robbed? ..... if something outrageous happens, you are welcome to throw dole whip at me for hours.
You know I love you Rex...but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Don't you know how difficult is is to rob a bank? Haven't you seen Point Break??? You need so much more than guns - president masks to start... Keanu Reeves is helpful... anyway, I'm getting off the subject. A reasonable and prudent person brings their valuables from their vehicles when they leave the car for fear it might get broken into because they know if it could get stolen if it is in plain site (or like a portable GPS, the telltale ring on the windshield glass will give the clue to a thief there *might* be a gps in the car tempting them to do a smash and grab anyway. Here's the trouble - I work in auto claims and my husband is a cop so I see this story from both angles but the whole car thing I see very clearly from the auto insurance side. Guns are not part of the vehicle and are not covered under the auto policy at my company (maybe under homeowners subject to your dedectible) - but the problem is you will have stupid people with their 2nd amendment right bumper stickers that are basically advertising the gun that is locked in the car. It only takes a small piece of ceramic on the tip of a coat hanger (that's what thieves are using today to break your glass) to smash the glass to find out. What they choose to do with the gun (use it, sell it, whatever) - is neither here nor there - now it is the cop's problem because now that perfectly legal, licenced handgun is in the care of who knows? Anyway, I wouldn't ever throw dole whip at you - I'm looking forward to still drinking with you on the cruise silly! I'm not letting a little issue like this get in the way of a good time on the cruise!
Personally, I think it would be much more likely that said gun owners sees someone being physically assaulted/threatened by a gun. He runs to where he keep his locked gun, grabs it and saves lives.

Of course, I've actually read about the above story happening. The gentleman's name was Mark Allen Wilson, and he died saving others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson

I've never read about yours, but I would agree that your "story" would get better ratings on TV and sell more newspapers.
You got me. I can't give you my "story" because they are claim numbers (work product) from my job and I can't prove the guns have been used. I only pay for the damage the thief causes when they break in the cars (which is every day - they don't all make the news, you know) and the owners and police are left to figure out the rest.

Launchpad11B
07-11-2008, 07:37 AM
Guns is one of a few "hot button issues" that always sparks a debate. On this issue I fall on the side of the responsible gun owners. I'm impressed by the fact that this discussion has stayed civil. When people feel strongly about a subject it is easy to get "heated" and then get mean. Disneybridein2k3 and wildeoscar are good examples of why the DIS is a great and friendly discussion forum. See you guys on the cruise!....(no guns, I promise;) )

dmccarty
07-11-2008, 08:09 AM
First Evil people are all over not just in FLA or NC or the USA. They are in Canada as well. I remember reading about the serial killer in Canada feeding his victims to pigs.

Its not about being afraid its about being prepared. I wear a seat belt when I drive not because I'm afraid I'll be in an accident but because I might be in an accident. I carry disability insurance not because I want to cash in the policy but just in case. When bad things happen they happen fast and you better be ready to handle the problem NOW. That may or may not include a CCW.

What most people do is play the odds that they won't be a victim of violent crime. Most people win the bet. The problem is that if you get picked to be a victim. What are YOU going to do about it. Its a question you better have an answer too before the stuff hits the fan... And it hits FAST.

One can minimize one's chances of being a victim but it can only be minimized so much. We have a high profile murder here of a UNC student. Its not been released on how the two thugs and the victim came in contact but they either car jacked her late at night or they got into her apartment through an open or unlocked door. The victim was not living in a bad neighborhood, involved with gangs, buying drugs, etc. She was a low risk of being a victim. But she was picked to be a victim. The thugs also are suspected in a few other murders of college kids who were in their apartments. They were killed for a few hundred dollars.

These victims likely never gave much thought to being a victim. They played the odds. The pieces of paper the prohibits theft, kidnapping, firearms violations and murder did not help the victims. The only thing that might have saved the victims is their own preparedness to handle the situation.

I don't think must people are afraid and thus CCW. They just are trying to minimize their chances of being a victim. The odds are one won't be a victim of violent crime but if you are not ready to handle the situation, the penalty is severe. CCW is only a small part of being able to handle the situation.

You are still hung up on the locked in a trunk deal. The gun in the trunk won't do much good but it can do some good as has been referenced. Keeping the weapon on your person would is the better solution but laws may prevent this in all circumstances.

There is a serial rapists in Orlando targeting women joggers. What should women do to protect themselves? These women are in decent shape if they are jogging yet the rapist is overpowering them. What should they do? Not run? Not enjoy the parks? When I lived in FLA our neighborhood had a park right next to it. A serial rapist was using the park to trap victims. His favorite target was women with baby's in strollers. He would threaten the baby to make the women compliant. What should a women do?

By the way mace and pepper spray are useful but they don't cause someone to just stop an attack.

So do you roll the dice and do nothing? Or do something to increase your odds?

Those questions are the heart of this whole subject as well as whose rights are more important, a property owner visited by the public or an individual? The courts have decided on either side of this question in the past.

Later,
Dan

hanco005
07-11-2008, 08:34 AM
Not really adding much to the conversation here, but I like our law, especially # 24. This was a hot topic here a few years ago when it first started, but it seems to work and there are rarely complaints (at least that make it to the masses).

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/Documents/CarryPermit/FAQs.html

pta-mom
07-11-2008, 08:51 AM
Yes Dan, I can see your point of view about wanting to be prepared "in case". And you are 100% correct that there are horrible, violent people in Canada too! The pig farmer is a classic, disgusting example of humanity gone bad. I have another disgusting example, much more personal to me....

My best girlhood friend's sixteen year old sister Laura, was a lone clerk in a family owned store when a man, freshly released from prison, came into the store & shot her in the head, killing her instantly. He took some cash & scratch tickets totalling $97 & destroyed a family. He had gotten the gun when he had broke into someone's home earlier in the day & stole it.

Now I get the whole the mantra, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" & I understand that this was just a random act of violence that poor Laura just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. By your thought processing Dan (I'm inferring here so forgive me if I'm wrong), if Laura had had a gun or if another customer had had a gun, they might have shot the robber instead of ending a beautiful young girls life. I get that scenerio & believe me, it would have been preferable in this case.

However, my logic still goes by the numbers. The number of voilent crimes anywhere near where I live is small...& I live in a larger city. Frankly, the number of violent crimes anywhere in Canada is low! Yes we have rapes, home invasions, purse snatchings, occasional bank robberies, etc but it is still a very small porportion. And the number of shootings is VERY small, maybe a few a year? Why? Because the average person does not own, have excess too or carry a gun.

I guess my thought is that IF people had more excess to guns, there would be more shooting, more of a chance for innocent people to get caught in the cross-fire. My thought is that more guns leads to more accidents, more possible bravado scenerios by people pushed to their limit or intoxicated, more random killings, more violent crimes, more thefts of guns by those not in control, etc.

I do wonder sometimes though if the real issue is not so much whether or not the average American feels they must or should own a fire arm or is it that the average citizen just wants to maintain the RIGHT to own a weapon?

It is an interesting debate & I certainly respect your rights & opinions Dan. Thanks for enlightening me.

UrsulasShadow
07-11-2008, 08:58 AM
Yes Dan, I can see your point of view about wanting to be prepared "in case". And you are 100% correct that there are horrible, violent people in Canada too! The pig farmer is a classic, disgusting example of humanity gone bad. I have another disgusting example, much more personal to me....

My best girlhood friend's sixteen year old sister Laura, was a lone clerk in a family owned store when a man, freshly released from prison, came into the store & shot her in the head, killing her instantly. He took some cash & scratch tickets totalling $97 & destroyed a family. He had gotten the gun when he had broke into someone's home earlier in the day & stole it.

Now I get the whole the mantra, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" & I understand that this was just a random act of violence that poor Laura just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. By your thought processing Dan (I'm inferring here so forgive me if I'm wrong), if Laura had had a gun or if another customer had had a gun, they might have shot the robber instead of ending a beautiful young girls life. I get that scenerio & believe me, it would have been preferable in this case.

However, my logic still goes by the numbers. The number of voilent crimes anywhere near where I live is small...& I live in a larger city. Frankly, the number of violent crimes anywhere in Canada is low! Yes we have rapes, home invasions, purse snatchings, occasional bank robberies, etc but it is still a very small porportion. And the number of shootings is VERY small, maybe a few a year? Why? Because the average person does not own, have excess too or carry a gun.

I guess my thought is that IF people had more excess to guns, there would be more shooting, more of a chance for innocent people to get caught in the cross-fire. My thought is that more guns leads to more accidents, more possible bravado scenerios by people pushed to their limit or intoxicated, more random killings, more violent crimes, more thefts of guns by those not in control, etc.

I do wonder sometimes though if the real issue is not so much whether or not the average American feels they must or should own a fire arm or is it that the average citizen just wants to maintain the RIGHT to own a weapon?

It is an interesting debate & I certainly respect your rights & opinions Dan. Thanks for enlightening me.
Beautifully said. As a SIL to a murder victim (shotgun, legally owned), and the friend of a shooting accident victim (fatal, again shotgun, legally owned), I agree with your thought that the availability of guns to every segment of society does lead to a heightened incident of the scenarios you mentioned.

dmccarty
07-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Yes Dan, I can see your point of view about wanting to be prepared "in case". And you are 100% correct that there are horrible, violent people in Canada too! The pig farmer is a classic, disgusting example of humanity gone bad. I have another disgusting example, much more personal to me....

My best girlhood friend's sixteen year old sister Laura, was a lone clerk in a family owned store when a man, freshly released from prison, came into the store & shot her in the head, killing her instantly. He took some cash & scratch tickets totalling $97 & destroyed a family. He had gotten the gun when he had broke into someone's home earlier in the day & stole it.

Now I get the whole the mantra, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" & I understand that this was just a random act of violence that poor Laura just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. By your thought processing Dan (I'm inferring here so forgive me if I'm wrong), if Laura had had a gun or if another customer had had a gun, they might have shot the robber instead of ending a beautiful young girls life. I get that scenerio & believe me, it would have been preferable in this case.

However, my logic still goes by the numbers. The number of voilent crimes anywhere near where I live is small...& I live in a larger city. Frankly, the number of violent crimes anywhere in Canada is low! Yes we have rapes, home invasions, purse snatchings, occasional bank robberies, etc but it is still a very small porportion. And the number of shootings is VERY small, maybe a few a year? Why? Because the average person does not own, have excess too or carry a gun.

I guess my thought is that IF people had more excess to guns, there would be more shooting, more of a chance for innocent people to get caught in the cross-fire. My thought is that more guns leads to more accidents, more possible bravado scenerios by people pushed to their limit or intoxicated, more random killings, more violent crimes, more thefts of guns by those not in control, etc.

I do wonder sometimes though if the real issue is not so much whether or not the average American feels they must or should own a fire arm or is it that the average citizen just wants to maintain the RIGHT to own a weapon?

It is an interesting debate & I certainly respect your rights & opinions Dan. Thanks for enlightening me.

I think many people in the US own a firearm because they like them. They like to hunt, shoot, collect and provide protection not because they HAVE too to prove a point.

Your idea that more guns equal more crime is one that is often mentioned. But it does not seem true. When CCW was first proposed in FLA the call went out that there would be shooting all over the place. People would have road rage and shoot each other. This just has not happened. Kleck has done the best research on the subject of guns and crime and he estimates 1 to 2 million uses of a firearm a year to prevent a crime.

The company I work for has had two mass shootings one of which happened at my site. It has also have had bombings, rapes, and assaults. A few years ago a women was kidnapped out of our "secure" workplace and I know of people who where threatening other people on the campus. A friend of mine was the first person seen by the mass shooter when the thug came into the building. If my friend had a weapon the shooter would not have gotten past him. Instead he could only hold up his hands and pray. Thankfully for my friend he was not on the hit list.

I don't think most people realize how much bad stuff goes on around them. I would bet most people I work with don't know about the incidents I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Alot of violence is around people they just don't see it or know it happened.

My understanding of the handgun ban in Canada was due to suicides and not violent crimes. After the ban the number of suicides by handguns dropped. The overall suicide rate was about the same.

My purpose of joining this conversation was not to get into the guns cause crime debate so I'll stop on that subject.

One of my points I wanted to get across was that people make a choice, often without thought, regarding their safety. That in fact they play the odds. In your case in Canada that might be a good bet. Nor do I suggest and certainly did not intended too, that everyone should carry a firearm. But everyone SHOULD take simple steps to avoid being a victim. They should be aware of their surroundings. They should think of what ifs. Lock the dang door. Mace/Pepper spray is a good thing but not perfect. Get a can. Practice with it and know its limits. Get a new can every year. 5% of an alcohol based pepper spray is good. Of course some cities/states/country have outlawed their citizens this level of self protection.

When I was in 5th or 6th grade my mother and I went to the mall one night. She parked in what turned out to be a nearly empty part of the lot. When we left there was a man hanging out by the door. Mom and I both noticed him, (Be aware of what is going on around you) and she got her keys out while we stood near the lighted door to the mall. We quickly got in the car and left. She would have been attacked if I had not been there and she had not gotten her keys out. He knew we were reacting to him. He did not like our noticing of him but it stopped him.

If you are at home at night keep a cell phone near the bed. Wired phones are often cut before a thug enters a house. They can't stop the cell phone. Well if they can you really do have a problem.

The thugs running around are Evil. Its hard for most people to understand just what they are like. They just don't care about other people. Gangbangers call innocent people they have killed, mushrooms/shrooms. Why? Because killing people is like kicking a mushroom in the yard. It means nothing. Its an alien mindset, thankfully, to most people. But it is their reality. Just take some steps to make sure you are not a mushroom.

Later,
Dan