Is the Rebel the right first serious camera for daughter?

[lucyanna girl]

Hi All, I need some input here. My DD will be 17 on her birthday in July. She is The Dark Dancer here on the DIS. She LOVES taking photos.

She is currently using a Canon Power-shot 850SD IS.

DD takes hundreds, sometimes thousands of photos everywhere we go. Even if we don't go anywhere, she is taking pictures.

Now, she wants to move up a level. I am very camera illiterate do forgive me if my terminology is a bit off.

I would like to hold my spending to a thousand dollars maximum. I am considering a Canon Rebel with two lenses, one up to a fifty-five mm, the other two hundred mm.

Also, what is the difference in the Rebel XT, XTi, etc. Which should I get? Should I buy a bundle?

Thanks for your advice.

Penny

[Groucho]

DSLR choices can be (and will be) debated until the end of time. None of bad, all are pretty good, each has specific advantages, none is perfect, all are capable of terrific photos especially when paired with a quality lens.

The main contenders, alphabetically, are the Canon XTi, XSi, and the just-announced XS, the Nikon D40/D40x/D60, Olympus E410/E420/E510/E520, Pentax K200D, and Sony A200/A300/A350.

The Nikons will probably do the most "hand holding", with help screens and such. The Sony A300/A350 are the best for live view (but at the expense of a smaller, dimmer viewfinder, plus the A350's image quality isn't as good as the A300's). The Pentax is the only weathersealed one (though you need a weathersealed lens to get the full effect, with that you can shoot in the pouring rain safely), and it and the Olympus clearly have the best kit lenses, not only in optics but with much better build quality than the others. Olympus and Sony OEM lenses tend to be more expensive than the competition. Canons... well, they're Canons so they'd sell well even if they were terrible (which they're not), they generally do well in image quality and not so well in build quality, and the best lenses tend to be very expensive.

With your price range, you should be able to easily pick up a good DSLR with a couple lenses and a couple good-sized memory cards. I'd start with that and put some extra money into a photography class, this will help her learn how to use the camera and also help her decide what kind of photos she likes taking, this will help her decide what would be the best next step for any further lenses or accessories.

One thing - if she's never used a DSLR before, remember that when you change lenses, you should do it as quickly as possible to minimize dust getting inside (dust removal techniques help but don't eliminate dust).

For pricing, check out www.beachcamera.com and look at the prices there. If somewhere is charging more, they had better be giving you a lot more, because Beach is generally about the cheapest quality store out there (free and very quick shipping, very good to deal with.) I'd tend to avoid bundles just because they either give you stuff you don't need, or junky stuff that won't be good quality. (It's unlikely that a cheap tripod that might come in a bundle will be able to hold the camera steady, for example.)

[lucyanna girl]

Groucho, Thank you.

I am so lost when it comes to cameras so your help is much appreciated. I took DD yesterday to have her pictures professionally taken and all she was interested in was watching the photographer and studying her methods. I sometimes think her future is in some type of art. She also sketches and paints very well.

Penny

[Frantasmic]

You are in luck with Father's Day this weekend. There are some really good deals out there.

The new Rebel XSi generally gets favorable reviews at most of the sites. That would be a good first camera for a serious film buff. I don't know if you could get both lens you want for that for the money you are wanting to spend.

Wolf/Ritz camera has the above with the 18-55mm IS lens for $849 (a $50 break). They also have the D80 with camera, 18-55 lens, and a free 55-200mm Quantaray lens for $899. If you have a store near you, I'd take your daughter and let her try each one out.

[Pea-n-Me]

There's a newbie thread here (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1794070&referrerid=70088) you might find helpful.

Take some time to do your research on what each offers before you buy.

[lucyanna girl]

Thanks you. I'll check these out.

Penny

[stlkeeler]

Also, one of the best pieces of advice I've found is to go and HOLD them and play around with them. I went into a store for a Canon or a Nikon and came out with a Pentax. One of the reasons was the Canon didn't feel right in my hands. If it's uncomfortable to hold, it might end up sitting on a shelf. You can always buy it online, if they have a better price. But the store I went to has free classes to help you learn how to work your camera, 100 free prints and some other stuff. If you live close to a camera store, it can't hurt to check it out.

Have fun!

[Anewman]

As a lifelong Canon shooter, I recommend the Sony A200.

$499 with a 18-70mm lens at Circuit City

[Pea-n-Me]

As a lifelong Canon shooter, I recommend the Sony A200.

$499 with a 18-70mm lens at Circuit City
It would be helpful to not only the OP, but others reading this thread, if you could elaborate.

[MICKEY88]

I also would recomend the Sony A200,

I personally shoot with 2 Sony A700s, so my opinion is slightly biased,

but the A200 recently received the European award for best camera in it's class..

the Sony DSLRs will also accept MInolta auto focus lenses, so there are a lot of good used lenses available out there


1 place I would have never thought to look for a dslr is Sears, I happened to stop in there last night for somethng else and was surprised to see that they sell them

they also have the Sony A200 for 499

[DizzyV6P]

Ignore the free Quantaray lens offer because its only good as a paperweight, so don't even be fooled by that marketing offer.

The Canon 18-55 IS kit lens is a marked improvement in IQ over its precedessor kit lens. The Nikon's 18-55 VR is also a very good lens for the price, so I wouldn't base my decision on what kit lens it comes with at this point.

Canon has finally annouced and soon to be released XS aka D40/D60 killer to compete in the low cost market so you might want to have your daughter check that out.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0806/08061002canon1000d.asp

I also recommend going into a store and holding each camera. That's the best way to see what feels good. If she's really going to be interested in photography, then I'd avoid the D40/D60 series and go straight to either the D80 or even a used D50/D70 simply because you can use all the old lenses and not have to only deal w/ Nikon AF-S lenses. Don't be fooled by Nikon's marketing on the D40/D40x/D60. You can only use autofocus on AF-S lenses. The rest of Nikon's fine line of lenses are stuck with manual focus. This is due to Nikon's decision to leave out the autofocus motor in order to cut costs. Don't get me wrong, the D40 series takes great pictures, but in terms of growth and lense availability, you'll end up getting a D80, D300 or its successor at some point once you hit those limits.

If you really want to spend a lot of money, the Canon 40D or Nikon D300 will last your daughter for a really long time. I've heard many good things about the newer Sonys, but since I haven't played with one yet, I can't vouch for them.

I'll let the Nikon users here talk about the low cost VR lenses. Canon just released their 55-250 IS which is a decent zoom for the price. You can read a review here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082007canonefs18-55and55-250.asp

I recommend beachcamera, adorama.com and bhphoto.com as the best online places to buy a DSLR.

Good luck with your search!

[Anewman]

As a lifelong Canon shooter, I recommend the Sony A200.

$499 with a 18-70mm lens at Circuit City

It would be helpful to not only the OP, but others reading this thread, if you could elaborate.


Well we can elaborate on specs all day.
Megapixels?
Frames per second?
Weight?
batteries?

Or I could just mention its strongest selling points, PRICE and kit lens with a wider than most focal range. IMO any DSLR today will do a great job for the OPs daughter, and all the specs are too close anyways so I just mentioned a factor where there is a clear difference.

[Master Mason]

Take your daughter down and have her play with all of the suggested cameras, one of them will just feel better to her, either because of the way it feels in her hand, or the way the controls are laid out etc.

I shoot canons, I think they are great cameras, but the others are all good as well.

[MICKEY88]

Ignore the free Quantaray lens offer because its only good as a paperweight, so don't even be fooled by that marketing offer.

!


I'm curious as to why you say that..

I don't know who makes the quantaray lanses these days, but they used to be rebranded sigmas

[DizzyV6P]

Quantaray are usually rebranded Sigma's made specifically for Ritz camera. Some folks claim that they were also made using inferior parts from Sigma. I used to own a Quantaray 70-300. I found it soft throughout its range and AF tended to hunt. Upon hearing the rumors about the Sigma rebranding, I tried out the comparable Sigma and found it still soft, but wasn't as bad, AF hunted, but was faster.

I sent it in to have it recalibrated and they said it was within specs. I ended up selling it to a friend who didn't care whether it was soft or not. I bought a used Canon 70-200 F/4 L for about $500 and it was tack sharp. AF was blazing fast. Obviously there's no comparison between the Q and a Canon "L", but its a HUGE jump in IQ.

There are simply much better lenses out there for minimal pricing instead of the "free" Q.

Even the Quantaray 18-200 OS which is supposed to be a rebranded Sigma 18-200 OS has been getting some criticism on the Canon boards. It appears there is a subjectively clear difference in IQ and quality. Why that is, nobody knows.

That's why I've avoided anything Quantaray for the past four years. It's probably safer just to pick up the Sigma version of the 18-200 OS. Since Ritz sells the Quantaray for $530 and Adorama sells the Sigma version for $450 there's really no good reason to get a Quantaray at this point.

As for zoom choices there are lots out there for decent pricing. Depending on what camera you ultimately end up choosing, you should check their respective DSLR forums for opinions on which long zoom would be more suited for your purposes. Although some people hate the guy, I've found Ken Rockwell's opinions on Nikon lenses are pretty spot on according to my Nikon friends. You can find his site at http://www.kenrockwell.com

Another person that has done some good lens comparisons that isn't working for a camera company is Lightrules. It's makes quite reputable reviews and is well respected in most Canon forums. http://www.pbase.com/lightrules/lenstests

[Steve's Girl]

As a lifelong Canon shooter, I recommend the Sony A200.

$499 with a 18-70mm lens at Circuit City

I shoot Nikon, and am very happy with Nikon. However, if I were buying today, I would seriously have to look at this Sony. Seems to be a really great value with the in-body IS and an 18-70 lens. I think this would be a nice kit for your daughter to start with. And you save $500 which you will need for her college fund!

[greggoda]

I have a new Rebel XSI that replaced my film Rebel 2000 and I love it. Canon is the only thing I've ever shot so I don't have much to compare it to other than what I've read. Sony seems to be trying to buy market share right now with lots of options and very reasonable prices so I would agree that might be a great way to go for the money.

I'd wait on the 2nd lens and see what type of pictures your daughter really wants to shoot. A higher quality fast lens (maybe the Canon 50 1.4) may be a better option over a cheap telephoto.

[lucyanna girl]

Wow! A lot to think about here.

I took DD to our local mall today to look but as we live in a small town there wasn't a lot to see. She did see the Canon Rebel 10MP at Sears. She wasn't able to handle it very well on that stick-mount holder they use there.

We will have to make a trip to a larger town for her to see some of the other suggested cameras. She is very excited.

Thanks.

Penny

[frugal_mar]

Do any of your friends or extended family members have a DSLR? My friends and I borrow each others equipment, lenses, flashes, camera bodies. We each have some specialty lenses and it is great to share them. In fact my friend just returned my 80-200MM f2.8 lens.

You are buying into a camera system. I believe that for the most part the body doesn't really matter, but the lenses do matter.

For a starter, you should also look at getting an external flash and a 50mm lens. If your daughter is going to get serious about photography, she will need the flash. The 50mm prime lenses for both Nikon and Canon run about $100 and they are well worth the money.

I would also start with the manufacturers kit lenses as opposed to the third party lenses offered by some camera shops.

Don't discount the Nikon D80, there are many rumors about a new model coming out, so there are many deals on a D80. I friend of mine also just got a good a D40. He did a lot of research and this fit his needs the best.

While I am not familiar with Canon's flash system, I know for a fact that Nikon's is just terrific.

I don't know if there are any Costco Warehouses around you, but they are running some great deals on the digital SLRS. Take a look at http://www.costco.com


With Nikon D40's and D60's you can't use some of the older lenses, but Nikon is coming out with some upgrades to those lenses.

I just saw Nikon D60 10.2MP 2.5" with 18-55 VR & 55-200 VR a 1gb SD Card and a Camera bag for $824.99

For $599.99 you could get a Nikon D40 6.1MP 2.5" with 18-55 & 55-200 VR Lens and a Bonus 2G SD Card

If you looked a that package, and added a flash (Nikon Speedlight SB800) for around $350. You would be in your $1000 range and your daughter would have a great camera system.

good luck.

[jann1033]

Hi All, I need some input here. My DD will be 17 on her birthday in July. She is The Dark Dancer here on the DIS. She LOVES taking photos.

She is currently using a Canon Power-shot 850SD IS.

DD takes hundreds, sometimes thousands of photos everywhere we go. Even if we don't go anywhere, she is taking pictures.

Now, she wants to move up a level. I am very camera illiterate do forgive me if my terminology is a bit off.

I would like to hold my spending to a thousand dollars maximum. I am considering a Canon Rebel with two lenses, one up to a fifty-five mm, the other two hundred mm.


Also, what is the difference in the Rebel XT, XTi, etc. Which should I get? Should I buy a bundle?

Thanks for your advice.

Penny
the canon xsi has been getting great reviews for image quality.
however till mid july there is a 200 rebate on the canon 40d ( better weather proofing and right now can't think what else might be faster frames per second, )making it basically the same price( around $800) so imo, i'd get the 40d which might take you a little over the 1000 if you get the kit lens with it...i have the 28-135 is and if you get a good copy it's a fine lens but make sure you get a good copy. you can check out canon's website and see what lenses are offered with a rebate as well.
'

[Pea-n-Me]

Don't discount the Olympus E-510 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1295) or E-520 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0805/08051301olympusE520.asp) (coming out next month). It's a very light, easy to carry dSLR with a host of modern features and two very good kit lenses to start for around $600-650. Olympus hasn't been as popular as some of the other brands, but is developing more of a following in the past few years as they've introduced some revolutionary concepts in digital SLR photography.

I considered buying the XSi (coming from a Canon S3 IS), but it didn't have in body Image Stablization which was important to me. (If you want IS, you have to use lenses that have it.) No doubt it absolutely takes beautiul pictures, but the Oly offered more of what I was looking for overall in a dSLR and I saw that it was capable of taking beautiful photos as well (though actually getting them myself is a different story altogether ;) ).

Look through some threads on this board and you will see that there are beautiful photos from all of the dSLR choices. Canon and Nikon are the most popular with by far the largest number of users, hence the majority of recommendations you see will be for them, though I think this might be changing - as seen here on this thread - as digital SLR photography evolves and competing brands are offering more, sometimes better, choices.

It's why I mentioned earlier, it's important to do your research, because although all of the dSLR choices available are good, they all differ a little bit from eachother, and there are pros and cons to each. All of them, however, will do a good job for you, so it probably boils down to getting one which has the features most important to you. Just beware, the more you learn, the more confusing it gets. :surfweb:

PS I have the 510 but if I were buying today, I'd get the 520. It has a few handy improvements over the 510.

[frugal_mar]

Don't discount the Olympus E-510 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1295)
Look through some threads on this board and you will see that there are beautiful photos from all of the dSLR choices. Canon and Nikon are the most popular with by far the largest number of users, hence the majority of recommendations you see will be for them, though I think this might be changing - as seen here on this thread - as digital SLR photography evolves and competing brands are offering more, sometimes better, choices.

It's why I mentioned earlier, it's important to do your research, because although all of the dSLR choices available are good, they all differ a little bit from eachother, and there are pros and cons to each. All of them, however, will do a good job for you, so it probably boils down to getting one which has the features most important to you. Just beware, the more you learn, the more confusing it gets. :surfweb:


I see a good consideration is how you believe that your daughter will advance with photography. I agree that you can achieve great results from any of the cameras, but as you advance in skill and needs, will the lenses and the flash system be available? Will future releases of cameras from the manufacturer support your lenses?

As I said in a previous post, Nikon's flash system is top notch. I can't speak for the other camera makers, but since I own the Nikon, I am a bit biased. I know people with both Nikon and Canon systems and each are very happy with their camera. I would recommend that you poke around http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php to for Nikon. Also, you may want to take a look at http://bythom.com/

Sorry, I can't help you with Canon or the other formats.

To add more to the plate, what are you planning on using for photo editing software and digital workflow? This software can be really expensive.

[Pea-n-Me]

I see a good consideration is how you believe that your daughter will advance with photography. I agree that you can achieve great results from any of the cameras, but as you advance in skill and needs, will the lenses and the flash system be available? Will future releases of cameras from the manufacturer support your lenses?
Are you implying - since you quoted my post - that the lenses and other camera accessories for Olympus (and by extension, other non-Canon, non-Nikon brands) won't be around in the future? Please explain.

[frugal_mar]

What I was trying to say was will there be an extensive selection of lenses available? If you are going to advance and want an exotic lens will it be available? This may or may not be important to you. I know that both Nikon and Canon have an extensive selection of lenses and there are many third party lenses for those formats. I don't know about the other formats. They may be there, but the people in my circles are primarily Nikon and Canon users. Once you make an investment in a camera and some lenses, it is very costly to change. You should know what you are buying into and make an informed decision. I have to evaluate software/hardware purchases as part of my job - so I am used to over analyzing purchases. I believe that as you look to purchase a camera, that it makes sense to look at many factors as the lens availability, comfort with the camera, features, the history of the camera manufactures, etc, etc.


--> Now to more thoughts on the evaluation process and factors to consider .......

Take a look at these for Nikon's lens compatibility:
http://www.nikonians.org/nikon/slr-lens.html
http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm

I did some snooping for Canon's:
http://photonotes.org/articles/beginner-faq/lenses.html
[/URL]

There must be something for the other manufactures too - anyone else. This is good stuff to know.

Nikon just introduced a full format DSLR (D3), and all of the DX format lenses will work on that body. The camera automatically adjusts "down sizes" the sensor. Now, I wish that I could go out and buy a D3, but I don't have the $5K, but I do have the hope that when the full sensor technology becomes available, my lens collection will not be totally obsolete. I don't believe that this is true for the Canon. Now, there may be some debate as to whether you would want to use a DX lens on a FX camera; however, it is good to have the option.

Again, I believe that this is just another one of the items that you should use to help evaluate the camera that you are going to purchase.

For shopping are there any local - non-chain camera shops in your area? If so, I would go and visit them. Those guys are usually great at helping you sort through the systems and find what is right for your needs now and will let you grow into in the future.

I was in a major camera chain in the mall a while ago looking around. I had to leave the store because I just couldn't take the sell that the salesman was giving to another customer. Much of the information he was giving was wrong and the salesman was looking out to sell his high profit items not what was right for the customer.

I first go through the websites for each of the major camera manufacturers to help make comparisons.

Canon's Selections: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=111 (http://news.cnet.com/Digital-SLRs-bring-lens-quandary/2100-1041_3-6068289.html)

Nikon's Selections:
[url]http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Camera-Lenses/index.page
http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Digital-SLR/index.page
(Look at http://www.nikondigitutor.com/index_eng.html which has some tutorials on the Nikon Cameras - I don't know if the other makers have something similar.)

Olympus DSLR:
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_digital_slr.asp

Pentax DSLR:
http://www.pentaxslr.com/home

Sony DSLR:
http://www.sony.net/Products/dslr/

[Groucho]

the canon xsi has been getting great reviews for image quality.
however till mid july there is a 200 rebate on the canon 40d ( better weather proofing and right now can't think what else might be faster frames per second, )making it basically the same price( around $800) so imo, i'd get the 40d which might take you a little over the 1000 if you get the kit lens with it...i have the 28-135 is and if you get a good copy it's a fine lens but make sure you get a good copy. you can check out canon's website and see what lenses are offered with a rebate as well.
My understanding is that the "weathersealing" on the 40D is a bit of a laugh, it's only the CF and battery doors and perhaps a small tweak to the buttons. It's certainly a long ways from a fully weathersealed camera. Actually, there's some pictures here (http://www.komar.org/faq/camera/canon-40d-versus-rebel-xti-400d/weatherproofing/) - it's pretty basic, not even proper gaskets but just some foam. If you want full weathersealing, you have to go to a Mk1 (for Canon), D300 and higher (Nikon), E3 (Olympus), or any current Pentax. Sony's A700's weathersealing is apparently more like the 40D, just a little minor amount here and there.

One final note about kit lenses, Sony's does go further but their kit lens is almost certainly the worst out there at the moment, since Canon and Nikon improved theirs while Sony's was similar quality to their older ones. All three are likely still trailing the Olympus and Pentax kit lenses in IQ, and are certainly much worse in terms of build quality, rotating front element, and lack of a hood.

In terms of price, don't forget rebates, Pentax currently has $100 off their cameras, you could pick up a K200D w/lens for about $560 after rebate. Or, skip the kit lens and get the really nice 16-45mm F4 lens for a combines $800 after rebate. It's a really nice setup, with IS in the body, 60 weatherproofing seals (slightly less than the K10D/K20D but still enough to comfortably shoot in the rain with a weathersealed lens), many of the K10D's advanced shooting modes, and a top LCD, which has unfortunately been yanked from everyone else's low-priced DSLRs, it's really handy to have. And as said before, the kit lens is in a different class than the C/N/S ones. It also has a good selection of high-quality affordable lenses, something lacking in the Olympus and Sony line-ups, while C/N usually require you to dig deep if you want IS and really nice optics, and by and large, you can forget about getting IS with their primes.

You've read the others, that's my sales pitch, but as said before, you'll almost certainly be happy no matter what you choose. :thumbsup2 Good luck!

[Pea-n-Me]

What I was trying to say was will there be an extensive selection of lenses available? If you are going to advance and want an exotic lens will it be available? This may or may not be important to you....

I believe that as you look to purchase a camera, that it makes sense to look at many factors as the lens availability, comfort with the camera, features, the history of the camera manufactures, etc, etc.
Well, seeing as the first Olympus camera and Zuiko lens were paired in 1936, I think it's fairly safe to say they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. ;)

And from another forum (http://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080523012347AAHKwlk):
Olympus has an extensive line of DSLR models and the quality of their "kit" lenses is unusually good. Some people will also argue that their is a limited choice of lenses for the 4/3 system, which is nonsense. Their are 30+ lenses currently available in the 4/3 mount with more lenses announced for delivery this year. In addition the camera design allows thousands of manual focus lenses from Fuji, Minolta SR, Nikon, Olympus OM, and Pentax thread and K mount (to name a few) to be used on their cameras with appropriate adapters.

[Anewman]

I really dont think any of todays DSLR makers are going away anytime soon, but just saying that a certain brand has plenty of lens options is not the same as saying it is equal to other brands when it comes to a type of lens.

Some brands are known for having great lenses when it comes to sports while others are know for having great primes. As a person that shoots mainly sports, some brands while acceptable to some, are not exactly ideal when it comes to body and lens options.


And Price really does matter to me, last time I checked out lenses for the 4/3rds there was only one fast zoom(f/2.8 across entire focal range) under $2000, and that was a SIGMA lens. Things may have changed but it did make me think.

[Anewman]

a K200D w/lens for about $560 after rebate. Or, skip the kit lens and get the really nice 16-45mm F4 lens for a combines $800 after rebate. It's a really nice setup, with IS in the body, 60 weatherproofing seals (slightly less than the K10D/K20D but still enough to comfortably shoot in the rain with a weathersealed lens),


Does Pentax make any weathersealed lenses?
honest question

[Groucho]

Does Pentax make any weathersealed lenses?
honest question
Well, yes, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned weathsealing (and it wouldn't be nearly as useful.) :)

All of their DA* lenses are weathersealed. That means their standard high-end zooms (16-50mm F2.8 and 50-135mm F2.8), the 200mm F2.8, 300mm F4, and the upcoming 30mm (unknown speed), 55mm F1.4, and 60-250mm F4. These all have SDM (ultrasonic) focusing, as well. These are all fairly high-end lenses, as is common for weathersealed lenses from any manufacturer, but the zooms have $100 rebate on them at the moment if bought at the same time as a camera, that means street prices of under $600 for the 16-50mm and around $650 for the 50-135mm - very reasonable for what you get.

I have the 50-135mm F2.8 and shot in the rain at WDW, and even held it in front of me on the big drop on Splash Mountain, where it had enough of a water splash that it got water on the lens itself, past the very deep lens hood. No problems whatsoever, I'd be comfortable exposing it to almost any weather. I also had it out at Ft Myers Beach later in the trip. FWIW the K20D has 72 seals (compared to 60 in the K200D - probably because of extra controls on the K20D) and the battery grip is fully sealed too, with 38 seals.

[jann1033]

Well, seeing as the first Olympus camera and Zuiko lens were paired in 1936, I think it's fairly safe to say they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. ;)

And from another forum (http://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080523012347AAHKwlk):

just food for thought, canon has about 50 lenses for eos they make. but i think the real problem might be third party lenses...you can get an adapter to mount most lenses on most bodies but will the electronics work? who knows. and there are still a lot of 3rd party lenses that are basically readily available with only have canon/ nikon mounts ( so if a mount is harder to find, the price will probably be less competitive). especially with reverse engineering there would have to be a large enough need to be cost effective for 3 party manufact.
ie my tamron teleconverter electronics won't work with my phoenix macro( ie auto focus, it was cheap so i don't really care but a forinstance) but does work with the canon..i think that is the case with pentax as well, their lenses work but some only manually...personally my eyesight is not good enough to have to use manual focus so that would limit my selection of useful lenses with pentax
not saying that will always be the case ( ie lack of mounts) but you can be pretty confident any 3d party lens comes in canon and nikon, more iffy for other brands. so to me that would be a big concern as far as what system i got into. i have more potential to be forced to spend more if i want a specific little used type of lens with a less well known/well used brand.

[Pea-n-Me]

I really dont think any of todays DSLR makers are going away anytime soon, but just saying that a certain brand has plenty of lens options is not the same as saying it is equal to other brands when it comes to a type of lens.

Some brands are known for having great lenses when it comes to sports while others are know for having great primes. As a person that shoots mainly sports, some brands while acceptable to some, are not exactly ideal when it comes to body and lens options.


And Price really does matter to me, last time I checked out lenses for the 4/3rds there was only one fast zoom(f/2.8 across entire focal range) under $2000, and that was a SIGMA lens. Things may have changed but it did make me think.
Well I'm certainly no expert in lenses or dSLRs for that matter. Just an everyday hobby user who did a lot of research myself and is willing to share what I learned with someone asking for information on the same types of things I myself wanted to know.

I have no doubt that should I ever require the type of highly specialized lens like the one you mention (extremely unlikely), I will be able to find a very good quality one to use with my E system camera (and probably at a decent price since I'm a consummate bargain hunter). There are a good amount to choose from today, and more on the way.

I hear what you, frugal mar, and jann are saying; that as a user, you want to have options, and I agree you should. I do, however, think that, as I said before, digital technology is moving fast and so is the user market. Many people are buying dSLRs to take the place of their point and shoots, and that the vast majority of these users will probably only ever need the most basic of lens choices. However, if they want to grow, there will be plenty of lenses to choose from that will suit their needs.

I think it's fair to let someone know who's asking what all the choices are, and to discuss the pros and cons of different choices, which every system seems to have. In post after post, we hear over and over, do your research. Well I did do my research, and for me, the E system was an awesome choice. They may not be for everyone, they certainly deserve consideration.

Current 4/3rds Lenses

Wide Zoom
7-14mm f4.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
9-18mm f4.0-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED (Not yet available, estimated August '08)
10-20mm f4.0-5.6 Sigma EX DC HSM
11-22mm f2.8-3.5 Olympus Zuiko Digital

Standard Zoom
12-60mm f2.8-4.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED SWD
14-35mm f2.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED SWD
14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
14-50mm f2.8-3.5 Panasonic Leica D Vario-Elmarit (with Mega O.I.S.)
14-50mm f3.8-5.6 Panasonic Leica D Vario-Elmar (with Mega O.I.S.)
14-54mm f2.8-3.5 Olympus Zuiko Digital
14-150mm f3.5-5.6 Panasonic Leica D Vario-Elmar XSM (with Mega O.I.S.)
17.5-45mm f3.5-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital
18-50mm f2.8 Sigma EX DC Macro
18-50mm f3.5-5.6 Sigma DC
18-180mm f3.5-6.3 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED

Telephoto Zoom
35-100mm f2.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
40-150mm f4.0-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
50-200mm f2.8-3.5 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
50-200mm f2.8-3.5 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED SWD
50-500mm f4.0-6.3 Sigma EX DG HSM
55-200mm f4.0-5.6 Sigma DC
70-200mm f2.8 Sigma II EX DG MACRO HSM (Not yet available)
70-300mm f4.0-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
90-250mm f2.8 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
135-400mm f4.5-5.6 Sigma DG
300-800mm f5.6 Sigma EX DG HSM

Macro
35mm f3.5 Olympus Zuiko Digital
50mm f2.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
105mm f2.8 Sigma EX DG
150mm f2.8 Sigma EX DG HSM

Single Focal Length/Prime
8mm f3.5 Fisheye Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
24mm f1.8 Sigma EX DG
25mm f2.8 Olympus Zuiko Digital Tatsuno
25mm f1.4 Panasonic Leica D Summilux
30mm f1.4 Sigma EX DC HSM
150mm f2.0 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED
300mm f2.8 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED

Lens Adapters
1.4x EC-14 Olympus Teleconverter
2.0x EC-20 Olympus Teleconverter
2.0x EX-25 Olympus Extension Tube
MF-1 Olympus OM Mount Adapter

[Anewman]

I have no doubt that should I ever require the type of highly specialized lens like the one you mention (extremely unlikely), I will be able to find a very good quality one to use with my E system camera (and probably at a decent price since I'm a consummate bargain hunter). ...




Well that is just it, for most they are not considered "highly specialized", they are just fast zooms(F/2.8 or better through entire focal range) that seem to be very common for all other brands. But with 4/3rds there is only one option under $2k, I can name around a dozen options for less than half that price that are available for Canon alone.

I am not talking exotic lenses, they are quite common and plenty of your fellow dissers use them.



I think it's fair to let someone know who's asking what all the choices are, and to discuss the pros and cons of different choices, which every system seems to have.

Entirely fair, just trying to help out.

[Pea-n-Me]

last time I checked out lenses for the 4/3rds there was only one fast zoom(f/2.8 across entire focal range) under $2000, and that was a SIGMA lens.
Not exactly.

The Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 is a superb quality, designed-for-digital, handmade lens and does cost around $2K. (Effective focal length 300mm.)

However, the Sigma 150mm f/2.8 for 4/3 mount is of similar quality (save one stop of aperture) and sells for around $600.

http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/39/cat/14

Additionally, any lens I use will be image stabilized since it's in the body. You'd probably need to figure in the extra cost and availablity of IS lenses if not using a camera with IS in the body, correct?

But hey, no question - Canon and others have tons of lens choices. I'd be a fool to say otherwise. But Olympus has more, often affordable, choices than people give them credit for also, as 4/3 options have increased over the past couple of years.

[frugal_mar]

I hear what you, frugal mar, and jann are saying; that as a user, you want to have options, and I agree you should. I do, however, think that, as I said before, digital technology is moving fast and so is the user market. Many people are buying dSLRs to take the place of their point and shoots, and that the vast majority of these users will probably only ever need the most basic of lens choices. However, if they want to grow, there will be plenty of lenses to choose from that will suit their needs.

I think it's fair to let someone know who's asking what all the choices are, and to discuss the pros and cons of different choices, which every system seems to have. In post after post, we hear over and over, do your research. Well I did do my research, and for me, the E system was an awesome choice. They may not be for everyone, they certainly deserve consideration.

Very well said and I agree. It has been said time and time again, that an informed consumer is a happy consumer. You really can't go wrong with any of the systems, but once you make the leap into a camera system and start purchasing lenses and flashes, based on your investment, you may find it hard to switch. I am not advocating one camera system over another, just make sure that you know what you are getting into.

I have to speak in Nikon terms since that is what I know.

Even when looking at cameras, if you want to do a lot with manual exposures, then make sure that it is easy to set the aperture and shutter speeds on the camera. My D50 has only one command dial, while my D80 has two. It is a bit easier to set the aperture and shutter speeds with the two dials on the D80. If you don't care about this, then don't worry about have 2 dials. Rank the features, price, compatibly, support options, your short and long term requirements, and take the plunge.

As I said in an earlier post, it may also make sense to see what your friends and family are using for camera. The ability to share/borrow lenses and flashes is worth a lot. A quick story about one of my friends, as I was lending him my ultra-wide angle for that he was going to use at a party, he told me a how a friend of his was looking for a DSLR and was leaning towards Canon, he said to him - what are you thinking I was hoping that we would be able to leverage off each others collection.

We all can become very attached to our equipment. I am a bit of a Nikon zealot when it comes to cameras, but when I comes to ink jet printers, the best that I ever used were the Canon and that is all that I will purchase.

The best that you can do is to go make the best decision with the information that you have at the time and go take wonderful photographs and enjoy yourself. BTW, I really enjoyed this discussion.

[Pea-n-Me]

frugal mar, I think I would be a little nervous borrowing someone elses equipment. What if something happens to it? How does that work for you and your friends? (I can imagine it would be really handy, though, even just to try something out.)

[frugal_mar]

I had lent my 80-200 f2.8 lens to a friend a few times when he was shooting indoor swim meets. When speaking with his wife, he said that he takes care of it better than his youngest daughter. After about a year of borrowing this lens off and on seeing if he wanted to get the 70-200vr, - this week he finally ordered one for himself.

On the serious note, we are just very, very careful with the equipment and have an understanding that we will repair/replace any equipment. We have a saying that we know where you live.

I have lent out/borrowed cameras, lenses and flashes. For my nieces wedding, one of my buddies lent me his D80. I backed it up using Camera Control Pro and put on my settings. When the wedding was done, I restored the settings. I ran three cameras that day 2 D80s and 1 D50. At times, I wish I had a 4th Camera. He went to the everglades and I sent him off with a full set of lenses.

Another photographer that I met at high school sporting event had her D70 go south on her. While it was at the repair shop, I lent her my D50 because there was a senior day that she really wanted to shoot. I guess that we are just a trusting bunch.

[Anewman]

last time I checked out lenses for the 4/3rds there was only one fast zoom(f/2.8 across entire focal range) under $2000, and that was a SIGMA lens.
Not exactly.

The Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 is a superb quality, designed-for-digital, handmade lens and does cost around $2K. (Effective focal length 300mm.)

However, the Sigma 150mm f/2.8 for 4/3 mount is of similar quality (save one stop of aperture) and sells for around $600.

EXCEPT that neither of those are "fast zooms", because they are primes(non zooms).

Going by the list you posted(since I had not really looked at available lenses recently), it looks like there is still only 4 "fast zooms" available for 4/3rds today. And my guess it that of those four, only the Sigma 18-50mm F/2.8 comes in under $2k

[Groucho]

I have to agree with Anewman - Olympus has some very interesting 4/3rds lenses available, including F2.0 zooms (try finding those for any other system), but the cost for the good lenses is rather breathtaking.

That is somewhat balanced by having the most amount of adapters for different lens mounts, the downside is that the adapters are pretty pricey, too.

ie my tamron teleconverter electronics won't work with my phoenix macro( ie auto focus, it was cheap so i don't really care but a forinstance) but does work with the canon..i think that is the case with pentax as well, their lenses work but some only manually...personally my eyesight is not good enough to have to use manual focus so that would limit my selection of useful lenses with pentax
not saying that will always be the case ( ie lack of mounts) but you can be pretty confident any 3d party lens comes in canon and nikon, more iffy for other brands. so to me that would be a big concern as far as what system i got into. i have more potential to be forced to spend more if i want a specific little used type of lens with a less well known/well used brand.
Well, there are always exceptions - Zeiss is currently making historically "proper" (ie, manual focus primes with no electronics) lenses for Nikon and Pentax, and that's it. (The Sony ones are different designs and are autofocus - and obviously, available for Sony only, as they're pretty much high-end OEM lenses.) Canon EOS-mount Voigtlander's are extremely rare (apparently <100 of their reportedly stunning 125/2.5 macros were made in for the Canon, probably one of the only manual-focus EOS lenses) but more common for other mounts. Their newest lenses are, like the Zeiss, Nikon and Pentax only. Obviously these aren't run-of-the-mill lenses - but then, neither are the unusual lenses that aren't available in every mount.

As for Pentax legacy lens compatability, nothing is really lost. Every autofocus lens Pentax lens ever will autofocus on every Pentax DSLR ever made. Lenses that don't have an "A" setting on the aperture ring have no way of telling the camera what the aperture is, so you set it then do "stop-down metering" to get the exposure - not much different than you'd do with an older manual camera. The same is true with M42 lenses, except that those are immediately set to the aperture size you pick, because only "true" M42 cameras can push in a pin on the back of the lens which is how it will close the aperture when taking a photo on one of those cameras. Nearly all M42 lenses have an A/M (automatic/manual) switch - in automatic mode, the pin will close the aperture blades to the desired setting; in manual mode, they move immediately. The obvious downside to this is that as less light comes through the lens, the viewfinder becomes dimmer - usually not a big deal (since you'll be picking a proper aperture anyway for the exposure you want) but it can be noticeable sometimes.

The only downside to all this is that, as you would expect, the old zooms don't tell the camera what their focal length is at any given time - this means that you won't get that info in exif, but more importantly, it's more difficult to choose a proper image stabilization setting. The usual recommendation is to set it to the widest setting, that way you'll always at least get some stabilization. This is not a problem with primes, of course, allowing me full IS with my M42-mount 55mm 1:1 macro, 135 3.5, and the 400mm F5.6 that I eventually got rid of (it was a cheapie, the other two lenses are very nice.) And M42 gets you the pick of the litter... from Mamiya to Fuji to Yashica to Cosina to Zeiss to Schneider-Kreuznach to Rollei to Olympus to Rodenstock to, of course, the original Asahi-Pentax lenses. There are M42 adapters for pretty much all DSLRs but for C/N adapters, you lose infinity focus unless you get an adapter with an extra glass element, which degrades the image of course.

One final note... if everyone buys the same brand, then it's inevitable that that will be the dominant brand. Buy what works best for you. The marketplace is big enough to support the current players, and every non-C/N DSLR sold increases the chances of more lenses being available for that system. Pentax had the best-selling SLR for an awful long time, and there's no reason that it's piece of the pie won't get bigger over time. I was just checking photography classes at a local place tonight (for my friend who bought my old *ist DL, as well as my wife and another friend who want to take it) and they're still using Pentax SLRs for their 35mm class. Certainly when I took photography in college, it was the standard camera. Canon dominated DSLRs for a few years, now Nikon is edging it out. No one rules forever. :)

[Pea-n-Me]

Lucyanna Girl, I'm sorry this strayed so far OT. I don't want to belabor the point, so this will be my last post on the subject. I do think it's important that anyone reading understands this last part.

I've been a hobby photographer most of my life, however I am relatively new to the SLR world, having never used one before. I had no lenses I had to fit on anything, nor any brand loyalties to speak of. I was pretty much wide open to buying whatever suited my needs best.

I know what I like to photograph. Basically kids, dogs, vacations, local stuff, etc. Same thing many everyday users do. I bought my Olympus with a two lens kit, as I'd read many good reviews about those lenses, and had a friend who had the same setup and was getting beautiful photos and had even begun selling some of his work. For what I wanted, I thought it was a good value (and if anyone wants to know more about that, I've talked about it on my Olympus thread here).

I've since bought a third lens, a neat little pancake lens, which cost $227, and I have my eye on a telephoto lens which is around $350. That ought to complete my collection for the time being. At some point, I'll probably spring for a Sigma f/1.4 (for Disney trips) which will run me around $500, I believe, though it will be a luxury (what lenses aren't, really?)

As I grow, sure, there may be other lenses I might like to pick up, who knows. My main concern about lenses was that there would be options in the event I wanted to buy others, and I know that there are. Cost, of course, is always an issue, but I know if I decide to buy what I consider to be a specialized lens (for me), I can always buy a used one or save up the money for it. But that's me, and that's why it's important to know what system you're buying into and what your shooting style is.

All this is not to say that more serious users wouldn't do well with Olympus, because there are certainly many of them who do. (They just don't post here - I'm the only one who gets to have "fun" with these discussions. :faint: ) There are many around on other forums. It's actually been very interesting for me in many ways, though it's probably not for the faint of heart, LOL.

Good luck with whatever you decide to buy.

[lucyanna girl]

Thanks. I've been reading what everyone has to say and keeping my mouth shut. I am so uninformed anything I say will only make me look worse.

My head is swimming with all the possible choices. I think what I am going to do is make a list and take my daughter to a store to hold them and see if any seem to fit her better than others. We are going to Dallas, TX the end of this month to see a musical so that will be a good opportunity.

I am also going to see if there are any photography classes offered within driving distance of us. I may sign both DD and myself up so I will not be quite so uninformed.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

Penny

[elizke]

I am not a DSLR expert, but I think I am becoming a DSLR shopping expert. I am researching, very slowly, for my first DSLR too. Not only are there many facts to consider, but obviously people develop loyalties to their brands, and this is a good thing.

After weeks of research, I was sure I wanted the Canon Xsi. Great technology, big ol' screen and good kit lens. If I had had the money I'd have run right out to get it when it was released. But I didn't have the money, so I just observed from afar all the forum talk about it at http://www.dpreview.com/ .

Then I started falling for the Sony A300, and watched that forum for a while. It's great too! Better prices, in camera IS and better live view. But oh, the Pentax K200. It's a tough little gem and I just love the shots I've seen! In camera IS too, and great deals to be had.

But for the past two weeks, I am sure I want the Oly 420 or 520. Again, in camera IS (on the 520), excellent image quality,great deals, manageable size (especially the 420!). I tell ya it's a good thing I don't have the budget yet, cause I may change my mind yet again. But at least it's given me time to follow actual owner's opinions for each brand for a while, both new and seasoned owners, and see what their experiences are.

The above mentioned site is very good for research, especially the forums, but lately this one is my favorite for reviews...

http://cameralabs.com/

It has fewer camera reviews listed, but most of the current crop is there. It's very straightforward and easy to follow. It provides enough info but not too much. Maybe you and your DD can check out the cameras you're interested in there first, and then she can see how they feel in real life to decide.

What a great gift for her. As is often said here and elsewhere, there really are so many great cameras these days. It sounds like she is a photographer at heart, and I'm sure she will love whichever one she ends up with and would make any one of them great.

Please come back and post her first photos. As I said, I'm still shopping and I love to watch other people actually buy the cameras. :)

[Groucho]

Re: manageable size - someone pointed out recently on another forum that, as a competitor to the E420's small size, you can pick up a used Pentax DS (a 6mp model with a really nice pentaprism viewfinder and a relatively large buffer for continuous shooting, same sensor as the Pentax K100D and Nikon D40), pop on a Pentax 40mm pancake lens (they have three pancakes currently available, the 40mm is most comparable to the Olympus 25mm pancake when you count crop factor, and is almost 40% thinner!), and you have a camera that's shorter, narrower, and thinner than an E420 with their pancake lens. No IS, but neither has the E420. Just food for thought. :teeth: To be fair, it would be a bit heavier, but some of that is the pentaprism, and believe me, that's worth a few extra grams. :)

[Pea-n-Me]

http://www.disneyworldtrivia.com/forums/images/smilies/lipsrsealed2.gif
:rotfl2: