PDA

View Full Version : Anyone NOT Worried About the Upcoming "Crisis"?


dananbethany
05-26-2008, 05:53 PM
My goodness...everywhere I turn, there's horror stories about how the economy is going to collapse and America is going to shambles because of gas and food prices. Please tell me I'm not the only person that is not falling apart worrying about it! I'm not happy about it - but you work your budget around these things and go on with your life. I have more important things to worry about like why Pirates of the Caribbean is going to be closed when we go to DisneyWorld in less than two weeks and why my 12 year old daughter refuses to bathe.

Life goes in cycles - economy gets better, economy gets worse...prices go up, prices go down...and life goes on. :cool2:

Tnkrbelle565
05-26-2008, 06:01 PM
In general...I'm trying to learn not to worry about things I can not change. I'm slowly getting better at it. Doesn't mean that I don't complain about it though!:rotfl2:

eliza61
05-26-2008, 06:06 PM
I'm a pretty optimistic gal. I'm old enough to have lived through the turbulent 60's and this seems like a walk in the park as compared to those times. We waivered between worried about being blow to bits by the Russians, being killed in the riots over civil rights or being killed in Vietnam.
We will survive this also.

sassystamper31
05-26-2008, 06:17 PM
Some people *can't* work their budgets around rising prices because there is nothing left.

We are fortunate that it isn't having a major impact on us (due to me being home and not driving much) but if we had two people that commuted long distances (like many people do) or families that were just barely making it before, they sure aren't now.

LaurieA
05-26-2008, 06:20 PM
My goodness...everywhere I turn, there's horror stories about how the economy is going to collapse and America is going to shambles because of gas and food prices. Please tell me I'm not the only person that is not falling apart worrying about it! I'm not happy about it - but you work your budget around these things and go on with your life. I have more important things to worry about like why Pirates of the Caribbean is going to be closed when we go to DisneyWorld in less than two weeks and why my 12 year old daughter refuses to bathe.

Life goes in cycles - economy gets better, economy gets worse...prices go up, prices go down...and life goes on. :cool2:

Pirates is going to be closed?

dananbethany
05-26-2008, 06:22 PM
Pirates is going to be closed?

Yeah, June 5-18 and we'll be there June 7-13. I was sooooo looking forward to the new Johnny Depp pirate too since the last time we were there was in 2005!

jacksmom
05-26-2008, 06:51 PM
I am somewhat concerned! :confused3 But not panicking!:scared1: We are trying to pay off extra debt though! :rotfl: It is not going to effect my summer vacation plans though, I have budgeted for them all year! :rotfl: I am thankful though that I have a job that is in no way effected by the economy!

nicknack
05-26-2008, 06:58 PM
My goodness...everywhere I turn, there's horror stories about how the economy is going to collapse and America is going to shambles because of gas and food prices. Please tell me I'm not the only person that is not falling apart worrying about it! I'm not happy about it - but you work your budget around these things and go on with your life. I have more important things to worry about like why Pirates of the Caribbean is going to be closed when we go to DisneyWorld in less than two weeks and why my 12 year old daughter refuses to bathe.

Life goes in cycles - economy gets better, economy gets worse...prices go up, prices go down...and life goes on. :cool2:

Well not everyone is fortunate to have a budget so roomy that it can be worked around any economy.

My husband has a very secure job (he is in the Army, so we don't have to worry about him being laid off or losing our benefits) but he has put off retirement because he'd rather not be looking for a job right now.

Most likely anyone on this website can't be doing too badly because we are planning trips to Disney World. But my trip is a year away so that I can save enough.

We aren't hurting. We have a roof over our head and food to eat and a car that runs. But I can't just shrug off gas prices and grocery prices that increase seemingly every day. I do worry whether we will be able to afford that trip a year from now. Who knows how much gas will cost by then or ticket prices or food.

disneyorvegas
05-26-2008, 07:01 PM
Not panicking, a little worried, but quite honestly I believe it wouldn't be such a panic if the media had something else to talk about. Think about it - in the days of 24 hour news stations, there is not that much "new" out there. So they will talk about something that affects everyone in order to get people to watch.

All in all, I think I am making more of an effort to use less gas more because of foreign dependency than price (although filling my tank for $60 did hurt:scared1: ).

loco4dis
05-26-2008, 07:20 PM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

christa112
05-26-2008, 07:23 PM
I just roll with the punches. I can't worry about stuff that I am not sure is actually going to happen.

willis37862
05-26-2008, 07:38 PM
I just roll with the punches. I can't worry about stuff that I am not sure is actually going to happen.

I try to do the same. Why waste time and energy worrying about things that may never happen. It seems around here at least, the things I spend time worrying about don't happen and the things I never thought to worry about are the ones that get me. :confused3 :worried: We just do the best we can, make the decisions we think are best and go with the flow....

MoniqueU
05-26-2008, 07:40 PM
I am a little worried. I know 6 people right now that are out of work one got a call back that the layoff had been rescinded but her boss is currently messing with her so she doesn't know but her husband was laid off a couple of months ago and has yet to find anything.
My husband was laid off from Oct to Jan and we are still playing catch up big time. Having to pay 800 a month for cobra insurance and driving an hour and a half one way to work is scary. We would never be able to sell our house if my husband is laid off again. He is not on salary but straight commission so if people don't by we don't eat. We are not going on vacation this year because of finances and he doesn't have vacation time. My kids are going to camp but at a far less expensive one then years past. I am also worried about my electric bill. Last year we got one for 1000 bucks and our thermostat was not that low. We are really going to have to watch it this year. I have switched from cable to dsl to save money, gone over my cell ph0ne bill and scaled stuff back. I am getting ready to call direct tv and see what tehy can do for us. And we are going to have to start coupon shopping and going to CVS if I can figure out how that works.

The only silver lining I see is the rise in gas prices here in Southern California has seemed to have slowed a bit. We are about at the national average when usually we are leading the pack

Jacob'sMom
05-26-2008, 07:54 PM
Locodis, you hit the nail on the head. With China becoming a major player in the world market, demand is way up and the powers that be are not supplying enough oil for the daily requirments of the world.

I think this economy has affected everyone negatively. I don't think it is going to get any better anytime soon. As long as food suppliers are having to pay more in diesel to bring their products to market, we can guarentee that they will pass along the increases to us, the consumers.

Additionally, with the introduction of ethanol the cost of corn has skyrocketed due to the demand, therefore the price of food products with corn as an ingredient will go up.

It is hurting us for sure. We have a boat with a 100 gallon gas tank that has become nothing more than a lawn ornament and my husband has a diesel powered truck that we could not give away if we tried. Someone actually offered him $15,000 less than was it is worth. What a joke.

We can only have hope that things will get better. :)

crostorfer
05-26-2008, 08:08 PM
I budgeted our trip next year, (we're driving), with gas at $4/gallon, now I'm kind of wishing I would have put it at $6. I'm betting gas prices go down in January though, the oil companies are just resetting the price so when it goes back down to $3.25 a gallon we'll all be grateful and think how fortunate we are, because as a society we are too forgetful to realize that 3 years ago we were paying $1.50.

Climbing down off of my soapbox now....

I'm also buying our tickets for next year immediately after I open and cash our tax stimulus check, I'm afraid of how high the House of Mouse will "adjust" the 2009 ticket prices.

Disney Doll
05-26-2008, 08:23 PM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

This is one of the smartest posts I have ever read.

I would add that we are also not developing viable alternate energy sources in this country, and we certainly have the know-how to do it.

heartbeeps
05-26-2008, 08:38 PM
wow! guess nobody posting is on a fixed income (i.e., retired)! It's a killer :faint: to pay more at the pumps and more at the store when there's no hope of a raise or a bonus (... other than that one-time stimulus check).

And, you think it's tough with gas and groceries, wait until you see the impact of traveling by air! :furious: It'll be just as bad as gassing up your car for a road trip. The fuel crisis is killing the airlines - so they're shrinking supply which will mean more for an airline ticket! Probably won't feel the full impact until after summer as most tickets for summer vacation were purchased a while ago. Hang on to your hats because it's coming! :moped:

Honkering down for a cruel ride............. popcorn::

wdwfanatic80
05-26-2008, 08:38 PM
I try not to sweat it. Luckily for me my husbands type of work is very much in demand. He is a handyman and with people working long hours and the housing market being what it is people need him - one to improve instead of move and two because they are working too much and don't want to spend what little time they aren't working doing stuff around the house rather they want to spend it with family or they are working too much and don't have time to do anything. We did go away this weekend for the holiday up to New York and gas was way higher than at home - like 10-20 cents more a gallon! It actually went from $4.05 on Saturday to $4.00 on Sunday back up to $4.05 today. Luckily for us we got it cheap at $4.00!! :X I agree with whoever said that they are just trying to trick us into thinking $3.25 is cheap, but that is exactly what is happening. Do I complain daily yes, but do I deal with it yup. I was sadly excited that when we filled up it was only $71.00 I was expecting $80 and that is what I had budgeted, so in my mind I saved $9.00!! As for groceries - I really don't notice it. I know it is happening, but we bulk shop and freeze and store, so I don't really go that often to the store.

las3888
05-26-2008, 08:40 PM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

You and I are on EXACTLY the same page...thanks for sharing...

To answer OP's question,...I feel the economy is actually growing...we have a very low unemployment rate, low interest rates, good economic growth. The media keeps focusing on all the 'bad' news out there...high cost of gas, slow real estate market (which in my county, showed higher prices from same quarter 2007 to this quarter 2008 in a majority of communities), high cost of food. At DH's company, they are having a very difficult time finding good help for nice high-paying jobs. It ain't all what is painted on the 5:00 news in my opinion. Yes, the high cost of gasoline is not fun, but more can be done about it that isn't being done...we just can't have it both ways.

I also wanted to add that we just purchased airline tickets for our August trip to WDW...we spent roughly $15 less than we did for April, and about $25 less than what we spent last November. I am diligent about checking airfares and trying to find low costs and I don't doubt the airlines are raising their fares, but in the end, the reality wasn't the big scare that I keep hearing about....

Whitaker24
05-26-2008, 08:53 PM
We have a family of 3. Recently we traded my wifes 04 explorer for an 08 accord to help her with better gas mileage she drives 35 miles one way to work. i drive 7 so i kept my pickup truck since i cut lawns on the side for extra money. Im trying to pay debt off and no "buy" stuff that we ahve done without for the 5 years we have been married. Wife wants an above ground pool for the lil one who is 3 but we have put that off for over a year. He now has a $25 pool that fits him and its not upkeep. Only thing this year is we are going to beach in July and Dis in Sept other than that we are gonna keep everything stable till some bills are paid.

schlepsnort
05-26-2008, 09:15 PM
I'm stressed by it, when I go grocery shopping or to the gas station. I am on disability and my dh works as much overtime as he possibly can.
I try not to listen to the news because it is all gloom and doom and I can only hope that whoever replaces Bush makes changes quickly after taking office. I don't honestly care what the changes are, just that they ease the strain on our nation. I'm tired of hearing about how our country is so concerned about every other nation instead of our own.
When I grocery shop I go to places like Aldi or Sav A Lot instead of Walmart or Kroger. I definitely buy way less than we used to. It's almost like a forced diet. We are a family of 5 so I make sure that my kids have the food they need while DH and I just don't eat as much or will skip meals to save money.
My dh drives a neon and I have a Malibu, I thank God that we never had the time to go get a minivan when we had planned to last year. We are actually talking about getting a scooter for the errands around town instead of driving a car.:moped:
We no longer put money in our savings weekly like we used to.
We are rolling with the 'punches' as someone put it but the punches are starting to become more than 'love taps'.
Last summer my kids were able to do soccer camp and other city recreation activities our town offers for a fee and this year they are not.
Yes we are going to Disney but that is only because it was paid for before gas prices went up as high as they have and milk was not almost $4 a gallon.And I was able to get roundtrip tickets for all of us for under $1000. :banana:

I do not see an end in sight and it scares me, to be honest.

Disneycrazymom
05-26-2008, 09:52 PM
I will also "show my age" and say my first house had an interest rate of 12%. And we were happy to get it. We got to buy gas on odd # days and waited in line to get it! We made it and we will make it this time too. Is it better when gas is cheep and plentiful? Of course but we just do what we need to do. Times will turn around again, They are not as bad as they could be and I don't think it will get that bad again.

I think Loco4Dis is very smart and right on the money!::yes::

mpls_mm
05-26-2008, 10:03 PM
I am glad I am not the only one. I worry I should be more worried than I am. ExDH got laid off and we were expecting a long bout of unemployment, but he found a better paying job pretty quickly. I even bought a new SUV recently, even though everyone kept saying not to. I only drive about 25 miles a week. I have noticed some higher prices, but it seems like some luxury items we buy have gone down so it is evening out. My business is still busy but we are doing a little more advertising and some other marketing just in case but have had some record months. People are still spending. If you watch the news too much, you do worry that the bottom will fall out but this is a market correction. The rates on my CD's dropped at the bank, but you can buy stocks pretty cheap now. As long as you are patient, it should bounce back.

BuzznBelle'smom
05-27-2008, 05:01 AM
I don't worry a whole lot, either. My DH just got a great new job (25% pay increase!!!) that will require us to move to a new state--NH, where there's no sales tax or state income tax. It's a corporate relocation, and they seem to be throwing money at us to get us in our new house. The house will be smaller, and more expensive (NH has higher property taxes), but a great school district and we're already planning our remodel/addition.

So, jobs are out there, we're doing okay. Certainly, I'm not thrilled at how food and gas prices have been going. But I think that's an issue of people's priorities--we seem to want the government to pay for all these things, so taxes go up, and we don't want to have to make any kind of sacrifice or tolerate oil rigs in our line of vision or near anything where they may affect wildlife to any degree whatsoever. I think the media has a vested interest in keeping people pessimistic. There are an awful lot of people with agendas out there.

dananbethany
05-27-2008, 05:09 AM
Well not everyone is fortunate to have a budget so roomy that it can be worked around any economy.

My husband has a very secure job (he is in the Army, so we don't have to worry about him being laid off or losing our benefits) but he has put off retirement because he'd rather not be looking for a job right now.

Most likely anyone on this website can't be doing too badly because we are planning trips to Disney World. But my trip is a year away so that I can save enough.

We aren't hurting. We have a roof over our head and food to eat and a car that runs. But I can't just shrug off gas prices and grocery prices that increase seemingly every day. I do worry whether we will be able to afford that trip a year from now. Who knows how much gas will cost by then or ticket prices or food.
Roomy budget? Our budget is so tight that it squeaks!

dvcgirl
05-27-2008, 06:08 AM
It concerns me in looking at it from a "larger picture" perspective. I have plenty of room in my monthly budget for the rise in energy and gas prices, but a great many Americans do not. Many Americans are in debt to begin with and so they're not in a position to handle a 20% rise in gas prices and up to a 10% rise in food prices. We have a negative national savings rate....nothing in the bank for a rainy day. This wasn't the case in the 70s, 80s and 90s....Americans had a "rainy day fund" back then.

So call this economic event what you will....recession, slow-down, muddle through economy.....whatever you call it, we're not going to bounce out of this thing like a jack rabbit.

There's also an awful lot of wealth destruction going on these days as well. Housing values continue to fall, the stock market is down almost 12% from October highs and 7% for the year. So even if you can afford that trip to the pump and the grocery store, it's fairly likely that you've lost a bit of wealth due to this event.

Will the earth keep spinning......sure. However, a lot of our GDP growth in the past five years came from a really lax monetary policy and cheap money for all. That source of funding is gone. So even if oil prices drop in a big way, I'm still having a tough time figuring out how we grow this economy in the next year or two.

kwhite1022
05-27-2008, 07:11 AM
Heh, I dont have to watch the news to get a feel for how bad things really are, I live in Michigan where we have been dealing with a recession for over 2 years now. People in other states that are just entering into this fun ride are just beginning to feel the brunt of what is to come. For me, our family started preparing for this 2 years ago, when we got debt free, we worked our butts off to sell anything that wasnt nailed down and hubby worked 70+ hours a week, to put us in a position to handle whatever gets thrown at us. At the end of that we took our kids on their first Disney vacation, paid in cash. Now, we really would love to take our youngest there (as she stayed home last time) and 2009 was supposed to be the year, but I will wait and see where things stand before we book. We have canceled all plans to go anywhere this summer, but mostly because we chose to use our stimulas money to pay for our house to be painted and a new mini deck be built onto our back entryway. Im thankful that I had basically 2 years of training being a tightwad :lmao: to help me adjust our budget for all the rising costs. I dont think worrying constantly over whats to come is the right answer, but keeping an eye on things is never a bad idea.

Todd&Copper
05-27-2008, 07:13 AM
I'm not worried, but I do feel alot of people overextended themsleves without considering the later economic consequences of their actions. Lots of people charge up stuff on their cc's that they don't really "need" [honestly, we don't "need" cell phones, iPods, Coach bags, and LCD HD TVs, but the lower and middle classes are clamoring for these "luxury" items and more or less deeming them necessities]. People bought houses imagining a quick flip and tens of thousands in profit, rather than looking for a place to live in for the next 10 - 20 years. Women got breast augmentation and men got pec implants rather than save the money in an emergency fund. People will still pay $4 a day for a damn latte at Starbucks, $5 for a pack of smokes, and $12 for a 6-pack of beer then cry that they're poor. No one wants to take any personal responsibility for anything. Too bad, so sad, but times are not nearly as tough as some of these ridiculous sob stories would make you believe.

eh24fan
05-27-2008, 07:14 AM
wow! guess nobody posting is on a fixed income (i.e., retired)! It's a killer :faint: to pay more at the pumps and more at the store when there's no hope of a raise or a bonus (... other than that one-time stimulus check).

And, you think it's tough with gas and groceries, wait until you see the impact of traveling by air! :furious: It'll be just as bad as gassing up your car for a road trip. The fuel crisis is killing the airlines - so they're shrinking supply which will mean more for an airline ticket! Probably won't feel the full impact until after summer as most tickets for summer vacation were purchased a while ago. Hang on to your hats because it's coming! :moped:

Honkering down for a cruel ride............. popcorn::



Not to belittle your comment, but I hate when people talk about a "fixed" income, as if those of us who aren't retired yet can just increase our income with the snap of our fingers. Realistically, with things the way they are, most of us aren't getting raises or bonuses anyway. I work in the non-profit sector and I'm wondering if I need to start looking for a job soon. That scares the crap out of me because things aren't exactly good in the part-time with morning hours job market.

MermaidsMom
05-27-2008, 07:14 AM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

Ahh! We must have been separated at birth! I completely and totally agree with you on this and say this almost every day.

MermaidsMom
05-27-2008, 07:17 AM
Not to belittle your comment, but I hate when people talk about a "fixed" income, as if those of us who aren't retired yet can just increase our income with the snap of our fingers. Realistically, with things the way they are, most of us aren't getting raises or bonuses anyway. I work in the non-profit sector and I'm wondering if I need to start looking for a job soon. That scares the crap out of me because things aren't exactly good in the part-time with morning hours job market.


Great point! Fixed incomes usually get an increase each year however small. Our income hasn't changed in 4 years. Actually it's decreased due to larger co-pays and deductibles for insurances.

Green Tea
05-27-2008, 08:10 AM
I think much is caused by the media. I know if I were to want to buy a house today my situation would be no less favorable than it was 6 months or a year ago. Gas is higher, but it isn't going to break me.

tinkarooni
05-27-2008, 08:33 AM
I don't disagree about the condition of the economy and the increasing prices of not only gas but food and life staples. I'm just too busy waiting for the bird flu and killer bees to get me. :rotfl:

Honestly, I watch as little of the daily news as possible. I don't need to watch it to know what's happening in the world. I selectively read the paper and in doing so I sleep better....except for that occasional nightmare about THE BIRDS!!!! NOT THE BIRDS!!!!

The media needs something else to do....hopefully it's not another killer cyclone or a devastating flood.....

DebMcDonald
05-27-2008, 08:44 AM
I'm a little worried. I'm trying hard to pay off any credit card debt with that gone I have much more disposable income. The only vacation we have planned is two weeks on the cape and that will cost us very little. I do home daycare for a living and I definitely feel it as no one is looking for full-time care any longer, everyone wants part-time as they have a family member watching that child for free or the husband and wife arrange their schedule accordingly, so those empty days are a pay loss for me.

MattM
05-27-2008, 08:45 AM
I certainly agree with Loco. The "news" you are getting is a load of crap for two reasons.

1.) The "news" business is just that...a business. They are doing what they need to do to increase ad revenue, etc. Negative news sells, so of course you wouldnt expect to hear anything positive about the economy.

2.) It is unprecedented that you have "news" sources openly endorsing political candidates (NBC is BY FAR the worst, see: Matthews, Olbermann, etc). How can you expect to hear anything good about an economy that is half run by a political party that is other than that of Obama's? It's truly unbelievable.

And on another note, everyone is quick to blame Bush for everything. We call it Bushderangement Syndrome (BS). Let's not forget who has controlled Congress for the past year and a half.

And last, the blame most needs to be put on the American consumer. This could even be you. For example. "Wow, look at that nice new 50" plasma TV over there, I HAVE to have that!" Problem is, that person may not have a single dollar to their name. VISA to the rescue! The irresponsibility of the American consumer's financial situation is ridiculous. They may not have a dollar in savings, or IRA, or their children's college fund. But by God, they are driving that brand new Cadillac Escalade with 4 DVD screens in the back seat, living in a house that they know they cant afford, and watching a new TV with custom-installed sound system. People need to start acting their wage.

Unfortunately, the current problems our economy is facing right now originated by the reflection in the mirror in many cases. We need to stop expecting government to take care of our problems and start taking care of ourselves. Then, everything will fall in to place.

www.daveramsey.com

a_sailor's_wife
05-27-2008, 08:47 AM
Well not everyone is fortunate to have a budget so roomy that it can be worked around any economy.

My husband has a very secure job (he is in the Army, so we don't have to worry about him being laid off or losing our benefits) but he has put off retirement because he'd rather not be looking for a job right now.

Most likely anyone on this website can't be doing too badly because we are planning trips to Disney World. But my trip is a year away so that I can save enough.

We aren't hurting. We have a roof over our head and food to eat and a car that runs. But I can't just shrug off gas prices and grocery prices that increase seemingly every day. I do worry whether we will be able to afford that trip a year from now. Who knows how much gas will cost by then or ticket prices or food.

We are also military. I completely agree that not everyone can work around the economy. And for those living the military lifestyle as we will be soon, it makes it even harder when you're having to find a job and relocate.

We aren't hurting either and we are comfortable, but we do wonder what lies ahead of us concerning the economy and how we can afford items. We certainly won't be able to take vacations as often and will have to give up other things.

For us in America is it hard to even imagine $5 a gallon gas. However, other countries have been paying that and more for a while now. We're just catching up. People will have to change lifestyles, budget, and try hard to save.

We are saving now for "what may come", but I'm not going to get myself in a tizzy over worrying about. I do feel for those who can't work around the economy and who are struggling. Those who are comfortable and have extra to spare such as myself should help out a little by doing small things. We try to donate monthly to our local food pantry for those who are in need. Anything can help others and we want to do that while we can.

las3888
05-27-2008, 08:49 AM
I certainly agree with Loco. The "news" you are getting is a load of crap for two reasons.

1.) The "news" business is just that...a business. They are doing what they need to do to increase ad revenue, etc. Negative news sells, so of course you wouldnt expect to hear anything positive about the economy.

2.) It is unprecedented that you have "news" sources openly endorsing political candidates (NBC is BY FAR the worst, see: Matthews, Olbermann, etc). How can you expect to hear anything good about an economy that is half run by a political party that is other than that of Obama's? It's truly unbelievable.

And on another note, everyone is quick to blame Bush for everything. We call it Bushderangement Syndrome (BS). Let's not forget who has controlled Congress for the past year and a half.

And last, the blame most needs to be put on the American consumer. This could even be you. For example. "Wow, look at that nice new 50" plasma TV over there, I HAVE to have that!" Problem is, that person may not have a single dollar to their name. VISA to the rescue! The irresponsibility of the American consumer's financial situation is ridiculous. They may not have a dollar in savings, or IRA, or their children's college fund. But by God, they are driving that brand new Cadillac Escalade with 4 DVD screens in the back seat, living in a house that they know they cant afford, and watching a new TV with custom-installed sound system. People need to start acting their wage.

Unfortunately, the current problems our economy is facing right now originated by the reflection in the mirror in many cases. We need to stop expecting government to take care of our problems and start taking care of ourselves. Then, everything will fall in to place.

www.daveramsey.com

You sound like a fellow ditto-head???!!! ::yes::

MattM
05-27-2008, 08:52 AM
^ As in Rush? I listen to him now and then. I agree with some, but not all he says. But he is certainly entertaining.

mickeyfan1226
05-27-2008, 09:13 AM
I budgeted our trip next year, (we're driving), with gas at $4/gallon, now I'm kind of wishing I would have put it at $6. I'm betting gas prices go down in January though, the oil companies are just resetting the price so when it goes back down to $3.25 a gallon we'll all be grateful and think how fortunate we are, because as a society we are too forgetful to realize that 3 years ago we were paying $1.50.

Climbing down off of my soapbox now....

I'm also buying our tickets for next year immediately after I open and cash our tax stimulus check, I'm afraid of how high the House of Mouse will "adjust" the 2009 ticket prices.


How would I find out what the price would be for our trip in aug 09 at this time. I would like to book at a cheaper rate but have not been able to find prices.

nicknack
05-27-2008, 09:32 AM
I don't really understand this idea that it's the news' fault and everything is really just fine. When I go to the store and milk is $4.29 a gallon where it was $3.59 a gallon a few weeks ago, that's not a Jedi mind trick perpetrated by the liberals at MSNBC, that's reality.

I don't watch much news at all, except the local news for weather and traffic. I can see with my own eyes that my grocery bill has crept up higher and higher each week.

(And no, I don't have a plasma TV of any size. We have one TV, one DVD player, basic cable and one home computer. No video game systems. One cell phone that my husband carries so his work can get in touch with him.
We have one credit card that my husband uses for when he has to travel for work and one charge card that he can use to buy his uniforms and things. Those are both paid off when he gets reimbursed by the Army. )

crisi
05-27-2008, 09:33 AM
Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

They also haven't funded much research into alternative energy. But we can't just blame them. We spent 15 years with a society that played the "my SUV is bigger than yours" game and saying "why shouldn't I heat a 2000 square foot home for two people with 17 foot ceilings." Our government has subsidized entire industries based on petrochemicals, while its pooh-poohed funding for sustainable tech. It isn't like we haven't seen this coming since the Carter administration (and before that). We choose to ignore it - politically and culturally - unless it actually hurts.

Bete
05-27-2008, 09:40 AM
We are on a fixed income. I've experienced some unexpected events over the last 1-1/2 years that hurt us finacially. Luckily, I had a mother (86 years old) that helped us out. She lives with us. So, we are feeling it some. This was the first time we ever asked for help financially from anyone. The unexpected bills were an exception to the rule; so, normally we are just fine. We didn't feel comfortable taking it out of our savings; because, we live off the interest income on those savings. If we take the principal, we have less to live on; so, we want to keep that intact, as long as, possible. We are ok normally, if there are no suprises and if we follow certain practices which are listed below. We've been retired for about 7 years now. I thought sharing these ideas might help some people.

We have learned to cutback. This means going to places like Aldi's (very basic foods offered for less) for groceries. I still shop at the regular chains too, but I'm careful and do sale items only there. Generic products have become my best friend. I use coupons which by the way is on the rise in use, now. I use the coupons in stores that honor double coupon value. Also, it means growing some of our own produce from seed in our backyard, too. We buy 95% of our groceries on sale. I refuse to pay regular price. We will go without if I don't get a sale price.

It also means eating less meat and other high priced items. We stretch our foods with potato, etc. Pasta is big in our household, as well as, beans. We do a lot of homemade soup. If we go out, we do lunch and buffets. We look for coupons to go out dining, too. If we go to a movie which is not often, we do a matinee for cheaper prices. Our frugal practices allow us to do some activities that are fun; although, we are careful about extras. If we still worked I would be doing home made coffee, not going to Starbucks, etc.

I've learned to use internet for some shopping and get good deals that way by using coupon codes and free shipping based on the amount of the order. We consolidate trips into town. We make a day of it and then stay put at home for the rest of the week; so, we conserve gas. If we have doctor appointments, we combine that with these other activities like grocery shopping, etc on the same day.

We don't have every TV channel available on cable, etc. We use a cheapy cell phone service which is the pay as you go kind. We use the library a lot for book reading and getting music CDs and even movies.

We have always lived under our means. We will buy veneer furniture; I don't need 100% wood. I don't need a granite kitchen counter. We don't abuse our utilities. We will wear warmer clothes in winter and turn the temperature down on the thermostat. We don't buy a new car every three years or for that matter every five years. We do our own DIY fix it jobs around the house, as much as, possible.

We will travel on vacation during non peak times which is always cheaper. Did I say vacation? Yes I did! All of these frugal practices above allow us to go to Disney World every year. Of course, we stay at POP or All-Star resorts. We've been for the free dining promo three times, now. All of the practices above allow us this luxury called a vacation. If we had to though I would skip a vacation which is our one special treat for being so Scroogy all year long.

You make choices and this is how we get a vacation out of it. But these practices can help any household to save money. I feel fortunate we all can eat each day, we have a roof over our head, etc.

crisi
05-27-2008, 09:40 AM
It concerns me in looking at it from a "larger picture" perspective. I have plenty of room in my monthly budget for the rise in energy and gas prices, but a great many Americans do not. Many Americans are in debt to begin with and so they're not in a position to handle a 20% rise in gas prices and up to a 10% rise in food prices. We have a negative national savings rate....nothing in the bank for a rainy day. This wasn't the case in the 70s, 80s and 90s....Americans had a "rainy day fund" back then.

I really worry about it from a macro level. We have enough cash to pay $10-$15 a gallon gas and $12 a gallon for milk - it will hurt, but we can do it (and some economists are throwing around those prices BY THE END OF THE DECADE - I don't believe them, but they are the economists). But at a macro level, that's going to plunge this country into huge problems, and I really don't want to live in a society where the have nots are starving - because people will steal and murder and revolt to feed themselves and their children.

The Romans governed on the premise of "bread and circuses" - if people had enough to eat and were entertained - then the ruling class could do what they wanted. We've got entertainment down pat, but if the bread falls apart, we are in deep doo doo.

MattM
05-27-2008, 09:46 AM
I don't really understand this idea that it's the news' fault and everything is really just fine. When I go to the store and milk is $4.29 a gallon where it was $3.59 a gallon a few weeks ago, that's not a Jedi mind trick perpetrated by the liberals at MSNBC, that's reality.


I'm not saying that its the media's fault that the economy is in a slow down. Im making the point that the media tends to focus soley on bad news.

Did you hear on the news that personal income is up, or that real GDP has increased, or that the international trade deficit decreased by $3 billion from last month? (granted its still negative, but that's still positive news).

Good news doesnt sell. Plain and simple.

Solomonsmom81
05-27-2008, 10:18 AM
I just want to say it must be really really nice NOT to have to worry about the economy, gas prices, or grocery bills, pay for rent and bills, and have money to sit at home and plan for a nice WDW trip, I havent been to WDW since I was 10 and mom and dad paid for that trip. I come on this board for the freebies and help with my budget, and I dont plan on going to WDW for a very long time ( maybe never at this piont). I also don't have to watch the news to feel it, my DH just got his hours cut and we are taking a $200 month loss, and his company is about to be sold to their competitor because of the economy so he might not even have a job soon ( we are praying constantly about this) and he drives 45 min to work in Michigan and he can't just jump up and find another job because there aren't any here, I am currently going to school full time for nursing so I can get back to work to better our income. We have one car so I can't work while he does plus we have 2 kids so then that would be daycare we would have to pay for and well I would be working to pay for the gas to get to work and for the daycare... SO those of you that are truly BLESSED and don't or choose not to worry about what is going on in this country, remember there are those that are very worried and are hurting, and say a little prayer as you lay down without a worry of money or how to pay for your next trip, and be greatful that your only worry is that a silly little ride wont be working as you visit somewhere that only so many wish they could even dream of going... Along with the others we dont have a fancy car, we have a cell phone that my DH got from his work and they are taking that away any day now, im on dial up so I can do online classes for school , no cable tv, and don't do anything that cost money except buy food and go to work and school. So I'm wondering how do I cut things out when there's nothing left to cut out and start budgeting around the economy???

gina2000
05-27-2008, 10:34 AM
I see a continuous decline in the American middle class life style. More and more people are falling out of the middle class into the lower class due to lower salaries, increased health care costs, and higher day-to-day living expenses.

It's a vicious cycle. The less we buy, the less we can work, and the less we work the less disposible income we have.

I believe the economy will contract due to higher energy costs that will trickle down through all aspects of society. Jobs will be lost and lifestyles will change dramatically.

It's not the end of the world but I do believe it's a difficult time for the US economy and the US consumer. If people had been saving, it would be less difficult. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case and it will fuel the downtrend even further.

kismet1003
05-27-2008, 10:55 AM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

Couldn't agree more with you !! :thumbsup2

CarolA
05-27-2008, 11:28 AM
It's not the end of the world but I do believe it's a difficult time for the US economy and the US consumer. If people had been saving, it would be less difficult. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case and it will fuel the downtrend even further.


You know I was wondering about this statement.... I keep coming back to one thought.

If you have to spend your savings to continue your lifestyle then all you are really doing is delaying the change.

Now don't get me wrong I am not against saving!!!!!! I think everyone should have emergency funds and retirement funds saved and a lot more then most of us do. (I do a decent job but I could always do better!)

I am not sure how much "saving" would help avoid the downturn you speak about however. I am sure that not "overspending" in the past would have helped. When you look at the US debt ratio, the mortgages people have etc, it is scary!

budbeerlady
05-27-2008, 11:31 AM
I am so sick of it! The first 5-10 min of the local and then national news is gas and or food prices. Thanks, I know already, you dont need to tell me again what the cost is per gallon.

I am just sick of it, I drive 70 miles a day at a minimum to work and back, plus school for DD. There is no good way around it, I have to suck it up and deal with it. But I am sick of hearing it all the time. Our life goes on as normal, I just have less play money and Dh is still not working full time. We can live on what I make, it just doesnt put much into savings or leave room to eat out.

callaghan0416
05-27-2008, 11:41 AM
The "easy-credit, no money down, live for today" party is over. And now it is time to cleanup. Nobody ever wants to clean up after a party, but it must be done.
Now, people have to learn to cut back and save more. Oh yeah, and here is the biggie, LIVE BELOW YOUR MEANS!:)

callie

sunnyday123
05-27-2008, 11:43 AM
Roomy budget? Our budget is so tight that it squeaks!

LOL!!! MY budget not only squeaks, it has to walk uphill in the snow!!!

marcyinPA
05-27-2008, 11:49 AM
My goodness...everywhere I turn, there's horror stories about how the economy is going to collapse and America is going to shambles because of gas and food prices. Please tell me I'm not the only person that is not falling apart worrying about it! I'm not happy about it - but you work your budget around these things and go on with your life. I have more important things to worry about like why Pirates of the Caribbean is going to be closed when we go to DisneyWorld in less than two weeks and why my 12 year old daughter refuses to bathe.

Life goes in cycles - economy gets better, economy gets worse...prices go up, prices go down...and life goes on. :cool2:

You' never know that the economy is bad from my experiences this weekend! I was at the mall , and it was MOBBED. People were spending money left and right. Restaurants were full. People were walking around with their Starbuck's and high-end store bags.

Prices are high, but I don't see people putting their wallets away.:confused3

dawnball
05-27-2008, 11:52 AM
You know I was wondering about this statement.... I keep coming back to one thought.

If you have to spend your savings to continue your lifestyle then all you are really doing is delaying the change.

I am not sure how much "saving" would help avoid the downturn you speak about however. I am sure that not "overspending" in the past would have helped. When you look at the US debt ratio, the mortgages people have etc, it is scary!

That's easy - savings gives you 2 things.

1) Rising prices or lowered income have a less immediate effect - you have a buffer (whatever amount you were adding to your savings). The buffer gives you some mental space to analyze the situation without having to panic about how you're putting food on the table this week or getting enough gas in your car to get to work.

2) Lots of solutions to financial crunches are long term. People with savings can spend some of that money to save long term. It might cost $3K to blow extra insulation into your walls. It makes sense to pull that from savings with a several-year break-even. It would make less sense to put it on a credit card or a heloc. People might go back to school for retraining/advanced degrees, or buy a more fuel efficient car. Or put their house up for sale and buy something smaller/closer/lower energy bills/etc.

You want to spend savings to temporarily bridge financial problems as you move toward a long term solution, not spend savings so that you can continue the same pattern.

granmanh603
05-27-2008, 11:58 AM
[QUOTE=marcyinPA;25343805]You' never know that the economy is bad from my experiences this weekend! I was at the mall , and it was MOBBED. People were spending money left and right. Restaurants were full. People were walking around with their Starbuck's and high-end store bags.

Prices are high, but I don't see people putting their wallets away.:confused3[/QUOTE
I agree...I was shocked this weekend how busy the stores and restaurants were here in NE....makes you kinda wonder who is pushing this doom and gloom??????:confused3

mpls_mm
05-27-2008, 12:24 PM
I think many people have hit the nail on the head. If you are socking away 10% and barely getting by and everything else in your situation stays the same and inflation gradually creeps up at a rate of 3-5%, your savings will be eaten up in no time and you will remain paycheck to paycheck. I think you have to look at the bigger picture. I think you have to create opportunities and your own destiny. In every period of time, an economic downturn spurs more creative thinking and more small businesses to open up and more enterprises are started. We really are the only people limiting ourselves. You decide what you get paid and how far you need to drive to get to work. There is always a better way, you just have to really find it.

sarahlovesmickey
05-27-2008, 12:27 PM
We are not really all that worried either. I mean, yes, it sucks paying the higher prices, but we just do it because we need gas and we need food. It really just means less spending money. We are still saving for retirement and things like that. We have become more frugal. I have always been a fellow couponer and we shop clearance racks for our children's name brand clothing (yes, we buy name brand because it washes better and holds up much longer).

I have to say that a lot of people have gotten themselves into financial messes: buying cars and houses that they can't afford, buying all the latest technological gadgets because they "just can't live without it". I have friends who make the stupidest financial decisions and then whine about how money is so tight and this and that. They get zero sympathy from me. sorry.

Also, I have to remark that this weekend we went up North to a little amusement park and it was jam packed. So gas prices weren't affecting that little notch of the planet.

MattM
05-27-2008, 12:43 PM
I see a continuous decline in the American middle class life style. More and more people are falling out of the middle class into the lower class due to lower salaries, increased health care costs, and higher day-to-day living expenses.

It's a vicious cycle. The less we buy, the less we can work, and the less we work the less disposible income we have.


What if we could change peoples way of thinking from your above post? People want it all, and they want it now, regardless if the can afford it. We can change it a couple of ways.

The more we work, the more disposable income we have, and the more we can buy (or save).

or

The more we work, and the less we buy, the more disposable income we have!

Money matters are 80% behavior and 20% knowledge.

Missy1961
05-27-2008, 01:28 PM
You' never know that the economy is bad from my experiences this weekend! I was at the mall , and it was MOBBED. People were spending money left and right. Restaurants were full. People were walking around with their Starbuck's and high-end store bags.

Prices are high, but I don't see people putting their wallets away.:confused3

It was the opposite for me in NY--the mall was empty, especially the food court, which always used to be mobbed.

las3888
05-27-2008, 02:19 PM
I personally don't believe the middle class is falling into a lower class. I saw a study recently about how 'low class' people are doing way better than ever before. They have a lot more money, cars, tv's, etc. than the 'low class' from previous years. I am not good with citing studies and passing it along verbatim, so forgive me for not being more specific.

I grew up in a middle class home. We had one tv. We had 2 cars, but we did not buy new, and we kept them for a long long time. We lived in a very very small house, which was really common, but compared to today's middle class 'standard' home, you would think it was miniscule.

Another point is, think about how long Europeans have paid super high prices for gasoline for so long. They have weathered it. Civilization didn't collapse.

One more point...maybe we would have a little more money in our pockets, if the government wasn't going to bail out all those who have purchased homes beyond their means with this whole foreclosure bail-out govt. program.

One other thing...maybe it's different at your local stores, but I don't get this high cost of food thing. I have been paying about the same for groceries. I got milk for $1.99 the other day on special. I buy most of my items on special, but I always have...I am spending about the same. I can't think of one thing that costs a lot more than it used to...or that a special can't be found for it (and I don't mean running from store to store for specials either). I am actually really excited lately because the produce is in season and I am getting such a deal on strawberries, other berries, corn, etc.

gina2000
05-27-2008, 02:35 PM
What if we could change peoples way of thinking from your above post? People want it all, and they want it now, regardless if the can afford it. We can change it a couple of ways.

The more we work, the more disposable income we have, and the more we can buy (or save).

or

The more we work, and the less we buy, the more disposable income we have!

Money matters are 80% behavior and 20% knowledge.

Most definitely.

We have become a nation of impulse buyers, owners, and wanters. Had we curbed our impulses and saved a bit, made rational decisions to own things when we could afford them rather than when we wanted them, we'd all be in better shape financially and not too far away from living the same life styles. Delaying gratification is not a bad thing. Buy a plasma once the prices have come down, not the day they come out. Don't buy the latest and greatest cell phone; opt for the next to the top of the line product. It's just all in planning and spending some of what you have rather than spending your expectations.

As far as living off of savings, it's better to have some savings to live off of rather than going into foreclosure or bankruptcy within months of a change in the economy.

I absolutely don't think civilization as we know it is coming to an end. Not even close but our life style will change as a result of higher energy costs.

Europeans have weathered the gas crisis storm but by living vastly different life styles than US citizens currently maintain. Ask a European how many air conditioners/tv sets he/she owns. As a European how large his/her car is and what sort of gas mileage it gets. Ask a European how large his/her wardrobe is. Ask a European how many square feet his/her home is. You will find a vastly simpler life style than we currently maintain.

mpls_mm
05-27-2008, 02:39 PM
I personally don't believe the middle class is falling into a lower class. I saw a study recently about how 'low class' people are doing way better than ever before. They have a lot more money, cars, tv's, etc. than the 'low class' from previous years. I am not good with citing studies and passing it along verbatim, so forgive me for not being more specific.

I grew up in a middle class home. We had one tv. We had 2 cars, but we did not buy new, and we kept them for a long long time. We lived in a very very small house, which was really common, but compared to today's middle class 'standard' home, you would think it was miniscule.

Another point is, think about how long Europeans have paid super high prices for gasoline for so long. They have weathered it. Civilization didn't collapse.

One more point...maybe we would have a little more money in our pockets, if the government wasn't going to bail out all those who have purchased homes beyond their means with this whole foreclosure bail-out govt. program.

One other thing...maybe it's different at your local stores, but I don't get this high cost of food thing. I have been paying about the same for groceries. I got milk for $1.99 the other day on special. I buy most of my items on special, but I always have...I am spending about the same. I can't think of one thing that costs a lot more than it used to...or that a special can't be found for it (and I don't mean running from store to store for specials either). I am actually really excited lately because the produce is in season and I am getting such a deal on strawberries, other berries, corn, etc.

I am 31, I don't remember as many people going to college when I was in junior high and high school. It wasn't a given back then like it is now. There wasn't as much help with financial aid and figuring it all out if you didn't have help, now people have their hands out early. I am from the south, the girls from poor families got married and the boys joined the military. I remember my high school guidance counselor telling me Hooters would be a good choice for me if I had aspirations of paying for college because my grades werent great. Thats exactly where I went until I saved up enough to go to college. Now they have whole departments and websites to help people get financial aid.

gina2000
05-27-2008, 02:42 PM
One more point...maybe we would have a little more money in our pockets, if the government wasn't going to bail out all those who have purchased homes beyond their means with this whole foreclosure bail-out govt. program.

One other thing...maybe it's different at your local stores, but I don't get this high cost of food thing. I have been paying about the same for groceries. I got milk for $1.99 the other day on special. I buy most of my items on special, but I always have...I am spending about the same. I can't think of one thing that costs a lot more than it used to...or that a special can't be found for it (and I don't mean running from store to store for specials either). I am actually really excited lately because the produce is in season and I am getting such a deal on strawberries, other berries, corn, etc.

I think you are vastly underestimating the ripple effect of a US mortgage banking collapse throughout the world. This problem is difficult to navigate and dangerous to ignore. I'm no more in favor of a government bail-out than anyone else but in the long run we will all breathe easier should the economy not tailspin out of control.

BTW, living in a major metropolitan area fosters competition. I have several different grocery store chains within a five mile radius as well as a few branches of each. Living outside a major metropolitan area is a completely different story. I watch food special like a hawk and I can because I don't have to drive far to purchase food from several different purveyers. That keeps prices down. I somehow think that's not the same as living in other parts of the country.

Mo-Yo
05-27-2008, 02:49 PM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

Not trying to interject reality here, but you did in fact interject politics.

I don't think anyone benefits by sticking their heads in the sand to political/financial reality. I agree, there are abuses in the media because of the market and also because of bias, but pretending there is no problem, does not mean there is no problem.

Consumer prices are rising for many reasons, including the demand for oil from China, as you stated. Unfortunately, scientists have determined that drilling all of our own "vast" oil resources would barely put a dent in our demand and would be gone before our kids are adults.

The sky isn't falling, but we need to stop shooting the messenger and find some real leadership and creative solutions to problems...not to get political.:hippie:

budbeerlady
05-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Consumer prices are rising for many reasons, including the demand for oil from China, as you stated. Unfortunately, scientists have determined that drilling all of our own "vast" oil resources would barely put a dent in our demand and would be gone before our kids are adults.

The sky isn't falling, but we need to stop shooting the messenger and find some real leadership and creative solutions to problems...not to get political.:hippie:


Dh and I were talking last night. We can sent items to Mars and get photos back from there. But we still need oil for our cars gasoline?!?!?!? Its a mess and we need an incentive to get out from under it.

dananbethany
05-27-2008, 04:20 PM
LOL!!! MY budget not only squeaks, it has to walk uphill in the snow!!!

Uphill, both ways, barefoot...

We did something last Saturday that we hadn't done in a long time - we went and saw a movie! I've been cutting back in many areas, and unfortunately, Mommy and Daughter Time at the Movies was one of the first things cut.

BTW - I'm really enjoying the commentaries here - and I'm very glad I'm not the only person out here not panicking - but some posters have some very good thoughts popcorn::

dvcgirl
05-27-2008, 04:43 PM
Most definitely.

We have become a nation of impulse buyers, owners, and wanters. Had we curbed our impulses and saved a bit, made rational decisions to own things when we could afford them rather than when we wanted them, we'd all be in better shape financially and not too far away from living the same life styles. Delaying gratification is not a bad thing. Buy a plasma once the prices have come down, not the day they come out. Don't buy the latest and greatest cell phone; opt for the next to the top of the line product. It's just all in planning and spending some of what you have rather than spending your expectations.

As far as living off of savings, it's better to have some savings to live off of rather than going into foreclosure or bankruptcy within months of a change in the economy.

I absolutely don't think civilization as we know it is coming to an end. Not even close but our life style will change as a result of higher energy costs.


I agree with everything you've said here. I don't think civilization is coming to an end, but I do think that we're going to be moving into a time when we experience some pain as a society. I don't think oil goes straight up from here, but overall, we're heading higher and so things are going to be a bit tougher on lower and lower middle income families.

And then there's the other "fiscal tsunami" heading to our shores....that's quoting our former GAO Head Comptroller David Walker. And that fiscal tsunami is the entitlement program promises that have been made that will never be fulfilled. This will put a tremendous amount of strain on our economy in the coming years. And there are no easy answers.

The only defense is to really and truly get serious about getting out of debt, staying out of debt and to begin saving much, much more than you think you'll need to retire. Unfortunately, I'm not all that confident that most Americans are going to grasp this concept until it's too late.

Jakesmom504
05-27-2008, 04:54 PM
Just to comment about what the OP said. I'm not worried about America falling apart...I'm worried about me falling apart, well my family. I'm in school and the more gas and food prices go up, the more I have to work and the more I have to work the less I can go to school. Obviously the less I go to school the longer it takes me to get done and well you get the point! It's just very frustrating, and I've about had it!

Enough of the drama though...that really stinks that Pirates will be closed when you go! :sad2: Talk about devastation!

DonnaL
05-27-2008, 04:54 PM
Granted........we've never seen $4.00 or more for a gallon of gas... but, we have seen recession type situations in this country before....anyone remember the 15% and 16% mortgage interest rates of the early 80's? Or the gas lines in the 70's? It always seems to appear worse in a Presidential election year also......is that my imagination or has anyone else noticed that? And, I don't think the war in Iraq has helped matters at all, either.......the sooner we're out of there, the better.......it always amazes me that our elected officials seem to look right past the problems our own country is experiencing and just keep sending billions of dollars to other countries.......most of which really don't want American help or if they do, at some point in the future will forget all about the help provided and turn on us anyway. Sorry if I offend anyone, but, I'm one of those "you gotta take care of your own first" which is a GOOD thing about our country .........everyone is entitled to their opinion.........

Alice28
05-27-2008, 05:05 PM
Not panicking, a little worried, but quite honestly I believe it wouldn't be such a panic if the media had something else to talk about. Think about it - in the days of 24 hour news stations, there is not that much "new" out there. So they will talk about something that affects everyone in order to get people to watch.

All in all, I think I am making more of an effort to use less gas more because of foreign dependency than price (although filling my tank for $60 did hurt:scared1: ).

I agree. I think a lot of this is hype. I'm not saying we're not feeling the impact of high gas and food prices, we are. But I think the media is making is so much worse by blathering on about it ad nauseum. The gas prices are spiking due to SPECULATION- that is what kills me.

All in all we are pretty fortunate. DH got a 6% raise this year and a bonus. We have about 40% of our house paid off. We have a car payment and a loan we took out to fence/landscape our house last year, but other than that, we're OK. I tend to freak out over money, but I'm keeping the big picture in mind. The economy is cyclical- always has been. Right now we're in a dip, because we just had several years of a 'high'.

dananbethany
05-27-2008, 05:14 PM
Just to comment about what the OP said. I'm not worried about America falling apart...I'm worried about me falling apart, well my family. I'm in school and the more gas and food prices go up, the more I have to work and the more I have to work the less I can go to school. Obviously the less I go to school the longer it takes me to get done and well you get the point! It's just very frustrating, and I've about had it!

Enough of the drama though...that really stinks that Pirates will be closed when you go! :sad2: Talk about devastation!

You gotta have priorities!

I know what you mean though, I used to worry about every little thing and I finally had to let it all go. Good luck with school! That's one thing I've always regretted - not finishing school!

madoka
05-27-2008, 05:40 PM
The Red Cross sent out a warning about increased food riots today. Won't let me post the URL unfortunately.

Yet in American I recently learned that we waste 17% of our consumable food.

Reminded me of the time I was at a restaurant and a couple was watching their kid open up something like 50+ ketchup packets so he could see how big a pile he could make. They thought it was "cute."

Shows us how lucky we really are.

Plus, this is an internet forum for people going to Disneyland. I would bet the vast majority of the users here don't really have anything to be concerned about. Who I worry about are those that can't afford computers, net access, cars, etc., let alone Disney vacations.

mpls_mm
05-27-2008, 06:47 PM
The Red Cross sent out a warning about increased food riots today. Won't let me post the URL unfortunately.

Yet in American I recently learned that we waste 17% of our consumable food.

Reminded me of the time I was at a restaurant and a couple was watching their kid open up something like 50+ ketchup packets so he could see how big a pile he could make. They thought it was "cute."

Shows us how lucky we really are.

Plus, this is an internet forum for people going to Disneyland. I would bet the vast majority of the users here don't really have anything to be concerned about. Who I worry about are those that can't afford computers, net access, cars, etc., let alone Disney vacations.

17% seems like a low estimate. It is just getting to the point of laws being passed that help stores and restaurants donate perishable food. We are a litigious culture that has fostered a fear of helping our fellow man. As a store owner you cannot donate food because you are too afraid of lawsuits and liabilities. We have to pass laws to protect people so they can donate what we throw away even though it is good. Retail stores destroy goods rather than risk them being returned and causing fraudulent situations. It is a shame.

heartbeeps
05-27-2008, 06:53 PM
Not to belittle your comment, but I hate when people talk about a "fixed" income, as if those of us who aren't retired yet can just increase our income with the snap of our fingers. Realistically, with things the way they are, most of us aren't getting raises or bonuses anyway. I work in the non-profit sector and I'm wondering if I need to start looking for a job soon. That scares the crap out of me because things aren't exactly good in the part-time with morning hours job market.


Perhaps everyone will be on a fixed income at one point in time or another with NO POTENTIAL to earn more - EVER - unless the govt. decides to throw a bone. That is what I meant by a fixed income. Those who haven't gotten a raise or bonus have the "potential" to look elsewhere for work or perhaps even get a second job for additional income on the side. When you're up in age, (i.e., 80s) there's NO POTENTIAL to make more money. Fixed or not, some have "potential" and some don't b'c of health or age or other circumstances.

Sorry to mention the word fixed. I should have used "potential" instead I guess.

flakypuff
05-27-2008, 06:58 PM
I cant say I'm not worried but this is a nice thread...I needed a little lift and its nice to hear a little positive too:goodvibes

eyeheartgoofy
05-27-2008, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE=disneyorvegas;25332986]Not panicking, a little worried, but quite honestly I believe it wouldn't be such a panic if the media had something else to talk about.

QUOTE]

No kidding. "People are happy and comfortable" doesn't make a great headline.

Remember Y2K??? We were doomed ...

dizneychik
05-27-2008, 07:58 PM
Changes are going to happen. Things will get worse and get better. It goes back and forth. I don't want to waste time on the worse but on ways to make things better. Our family always tries to live comfortably so we always have a cushion if we really need it.

crisi
05-27-2008, 08:03 PM
Granted........we've never seen $4.00 or more for a gallon of gas... but, we have seen recession type situations in this country before....anyone remember the 15% and 16% mortgage interest rates of the early 80's? Or the gas lines in the 70's? It always seems to appear worse in a Presidential election year also......is that my imagination or has anyone else noticed that? And, I don't think the war in Iraq has helped matters at all, either.......the sooner we're out of there, the better.......it always amazes me that our elected officials seem to look right past the problems our own country is experiencing and just keep sending billions of dollars to other countries.......most of which really don't want American help or if they do, at some point in the future will forget all about the help provided and turn on us anyway. Sorry if I offend anyone, but, I'm one of those "you gotta take care of your own first" which is a GOOD thing about our country .........everyone is entitled to their opinion.........


And you pulled out of the 70s and the 80s, but ask someone in Detroit, Hibbing, Gary, or Pittsburgh if there areas ever really recovered. Maybe they moved away and got a different job, but it was probably a lower paying job with fewer benefits than what they had. I know families that never recovered from the recessions of the 1970s or 1980s. As in, they never again had the standard of living (house, cars) they had then.

As a society, we pull through - as a society we pulled through the Black Death. As individuals, it may or may not be something we pull through intact. And there will be casualties - it depends on how many and to what extent.

mrsltg
05-27-2008, 08:06 PM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

ITA. The economy is cyclical. It goes up, it goes down. The sky is not falling, the end of times is not near. Yes, gas is increasing - people need to adjust. Decide your breaking point and change before you get there. Driving gas guzzlers and then complaining about cost is not helpful, nor is bemoaning the price of mangos shipped here from South America instead of buying locally and not paying the fuel surcharge. I am grateful for what I have, and am blessed to be able to spend a little more on gas and a little less elsewhere. However, we traded in the SUV for a sedan (Trailblazer for a Ford 500) which is bigger and gets better gas mileage with a higher safety rating - go figure!

MrsPete
05-27-2008, 08:33 PM
My goodness...everywhere I turn, there's horror stories about how the economy is going to collapse and America is going to shambles because of gas and food prices. Please tell me I'm not the only person that is not falling apart worrying about it! I'm not happy about it - but you work your budget around these things and go on with your life.I think the truth is somewhere between the news' "The sky is falling" and your "So what?". I heard today on the news that housing across America is down 14.4% -- that's pretty scary in and of itself.

Lots of bad stuff IS happening; it isn't imaginary; however, it isn't the first time that we've had radical economical issues -- it's just the first time in a while, and we're awfully comfortable with our spendy ways, and we have little savings to fall back upon. I think we'll hurt for a couple years, then things'll find a new level of "normal". wow! guess nobody posting is on a fixed income (i.e., retired)! Off-topic, but I hate that phrase: "on a fixed income". With a few exceptions (i.e., salespeople who work on commission), we're ALL on a fixed income. Some are fixed higher, some are fixed lower. My boss pays me the same thing every month -- most people's bosses do. But people use the phrase "on a fixed income" to mean on a LOW income. Rant over. I don't really understand this idea that it's the news' fault and everything is really just fine. When I go to the store and milk is $4.29 a gallon where it was $3.59 a gallon a few weeks ago, that's not a Jedi mind trick perpetrated by the liberals at MSNBC, that's reality. You're exactly right, but I also understand where people are coming from when they say that the media just loves to "create" problems where none really exist. And by doing that, they can actually make things worse. The economy, of course, REALLY DOES have problems -- I personally know quite a few well-educated, hard working men who are out of work (no women, wonder why?). That's real. I see a continuous decline in the American middle class life style. More and more people are falling out of the middle class into the lower class due to lower salaries, increased health care costs, and higher day-to-day living expenses.I disagree -- somewhat. We've raised our idea of what a middle-class family should have, and that makes it more difficult for people to fit into the mold. My husband's grandmother raised three children in a two-bedroom house/one bath house without air conditioning (I believe her children were all born in the 1940s). Three children shared a bedroom. The family owned one car, one TV, and one phone. Mom stayed home, cooked, sewed, and was frugal with her husband's paycheck. She has only been out of the state a few times in her whole life. My grandmother lived in a more rural area and had more land, but she raised her two children in much the same way; I believe they had a few more vacations, etc. -- maybe they were middle-middle class while my husband's grandmother was lower-middle class.

Today's average house is more than twice the size of that house. Once the children are old enough to drive, it's usual to have cars even for the teens. TVs, ipods, and other electronics -- even for those of us who are frugal -- waiver in that gray area between want and need. Few of us in the South do without air conditioning. We eat out, we travel, we shop. Even "poor kids" eat at restaurants, get loads of gifts at Christmas, and have themed birthday parties. Our middle class expectations are considerably higher than those of our middle-class counterparts only a few decades ago. I think a large portion of the problem is that we've come to expect so much more from life. It's a vicious cycle. The less we buy, the less we can work, and the less we work the less disposible income we have.I agree with that; however, we as a nation have over-spent for years now. We've consumed more than we needed, and we've gone into debt to do it. We've raised the economy to an artificial level, which cannot be sustained -- and now that we've reached this impossible-to-maintain level, we're hit with these gas prices, the housing crunch, and more. It's a matter of too many things coming together at once. I am 31, I don't remember as many people going to college when I was in junior high and high school. It wasn't a given back then like it is now. There wasn't as much help with financial aid and figuring it all out if you didn't have help, now people have their hands out early. I am from the south, the girls from poor families got married and the boys joined the military.I'm also from the South, and I'm 42. I could say that very same things: when I graduated from high school, only about 20 kids from my class of 160 or so went to college; about half of us graduated. In my area most people weren't poor, but they were from farming families and were raised to be very frugal. The idea of borrowing to go to college wouldn't have occured to them -- it never even crossed my mind, even when the financial aid people suggested it. Instead, I worked hard and did without things. That's just the way we did it -- goodness, I sound old!

Fast forward today: I teach high school, and the vast majority of my students DO attend college. Of course, my students aren't going to inherit farms either -- most of my high school classmates did. One HUGE thing to note, though, going to college isn't the same thing as graduating from college. Today we've set up a set of false expectations that EVERYONE should go to college. Many, many, many of those students have no business being there; they'd have been better off going to a trade school. I can't tell you how many of my students will tell you that they hate school, never study, are doing just enough to get by . . . but, oh, yes! They're going to college. And they're borrowing to do it. Those are the ones who become one-semester wonders, and that's no favor to anyone. Some of these students would've been better off waiting a couple years for some maturity to set in, THEN they could've done a good job in college. Others simply aren't academic, and there's no use pretending that they're going to be successful in college. Years ago we decided that everyone should have equal chances, but around that same time we quit being being realistic about certain things.If you have to spend your savings to continue your lifestyle then all you are really doing is delaying the change.I have to agree. Savings should be used for planned expenditures like vacations or a new TV . . . or to see you through emergencies like a busted transmission . . . or to see you through tight times like a job lay-off. But if you're forced to REGULARLY withdraw money from savings to pay your monthly bills, you're going to eventually run out. If that's the case, you have two options: 1) spend less or 2) earn more.Dh and I were talking last night. We can sent items to Mars and get photos back from there. But we still need oil for our cars gasoline?!?!?!? Its a mess and we need an incentive to get out from under it.Call me crazy, but I think we need to QUIT taking pictures of Mars (and quit a few other things too) and invest in some alternative energy sources and some infastructure to provide mass transit to those who us who don't currently have access to it.

Mrs.Reese
05-27-2008, 08:55 PM
Gotta agree on that fixed income part. The school system pays me the same amount every other week with a yearly increase of $350. So gas at $4 a gallon yeah I notice it. I notice it in parent's having to cut even more and make the decision to put gas in the car for work or feed the kids. It will get bad but then it will recover.

Will we really recover? As a whole, yes but some individuals will never truly recover. Personally, I don't worry about it. I knew that teaching in Florida I would never be rich and live accordingly to that fact.

C.Ann
05-27-2008, 09:10 PM
I'm not worried as in "the sky is falling" - and my concerns don't come from the news (the only "news" I usually get is if I get on the DIS).. My concerns come from what I see with my own eyes and what I have to pay out because of the state of the economy..

So - while I'm not in a panic, I'm not running around spending money willy-nilly either..:confused3

RACHELSMOM1
05-27-2008, 09:32 PM
Not worried here. Lived thru the 60s and 70s - once bought a car at 18% interest rate (ouch!!). Life does go in cycles. Have lived thru poverty, then life got easier. As long as we have family, our love of God, and each other, we are sustained.

loco4dis
05-27-2008, 10:06 PM
Not trying to interject reality here, but you did in fact interject politics.

I don't think anyone benefits by sticking their heads in the sand to political/financial reality. I agree, there are abuses in the media because of the market and also because of bias, but pretending there is no problem, does not mean there is no problem.

Consumer prices are rising for many reasons, including the demand for oil from China, as you stated. Unfortunately, scientists have determined that drilling all of our own "vast" oil resources would barely put a dent in our demand and would be gone before our kids are adults.

The sky isn't falling, but we need to stop shooting the messenger and find some real leadership and creative solutions to problems...not to get political.:hippie:

Respectfully, "scientists" have determined no such thing; pandering politicians and environmental activists have. We have large untapped oil resources, including potentially the equivalent of 2 trillion barrels of oil in shale deposits in the west, which we should be exploring and developing the technologies to mine. It's certainly not the only solution, and should be combined with investing in new technologies, but reducing our dependence on hostile nations for oil even by 20 or 30 percent would be a good thing. Criticizing the media's reporting on economic issues is not "shooting the messenger" as their "sky is falling" reporting can very negatively impact markets and consumer behavior. They aren't simply reporting the problem; they are part of the problem. As an example, I remember recently reading an article about a consumer confidence survey. It asked respondents 1) How do you think the economy is doing? The majority said "terrible." Then it asked 2) How is your personal economic picture? And the majority said "Great!" I think that disconnect can be traced to the media's effect on people's perceptions. They may be doing OK, but they've "heard" that everyone else is falling apart.

Kay1
05-28-2008, 04:50 AM
Respectfully, "scientists" have determined no such thing; pandering politicians and environmental activists have. We have large untapped oil resources, including potentially the equivalent of 2 trillion barrels of oil in shale deposits in the west, which we should be exploring and developing the technologies to mine. It's certainly not the only solution, and should be combined with investing in new technologies, but reducing our dependence on hostile nations for oil even by 20 or 30 percent would be a good thing.

Actually, I believe Mo Yo is correct. Here's a link I wish you'd look at:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

This man has studied Peak Oil for some time and addresses everything you say. Simply put, at a certain point existing oil is just too expensive to bother with. Everything the site owner says is backed up with links including scientists. Actually, I think many politicians do use this issue to divide and confuse us.

gina2000
05-28-2008, 06:15 AM
I disagree -- somewhat. We've raised our idea of what a middle-class family should have, and that makes it more difficult for people to fit into the mold. My husband's grandmother raised three children in a two-bedroom house/one bath house without air conditioning (I believe her children were all born in the 1940s). Three children shared a bedroom. The family owned one car, one TV, and one phone. Mom stayed home, cooked, sewed, and was frugal with her husband's paycheck. She has only been out of the state a few times in her whole life. My grandmother lived in a more rural area and had more land, but she raised her two children in much the same way; I believe they had a few more vacations, etc. -- maybe they were middle-middle class while my husband's grandmother was lower-middle class.

Today's average house is more than twice the size of that house. Once the children are old enough to drive, it's usual to have cars even for the teens. TVs, ipods, and other electronics -- even for those of us who are frugal -- waiver in that gray area between want and need. Few of us in the South do without air conditioning. We eat out, we travel, we shop. Even "poor kids" eat at restaurants, get loads of gifts at Christmas, and have themed birthday parties. Our middle class expectations are considerably higher than those of our middle-class counterparts only a few decades ago. I think a large portion of the problem is that we've come to expect so much more from life. I agree with that; however, we as a nation have over-spent for years now. We've consumed more than we needed, and we've gone into debt to do it. We've raised the economy to an artificial level, which cannot be sustained -- and now that we've reached this impossible-to-maintain level, we're hit with these gas prices, the housing crunch, and more. It's a matter of too many things coming together at once.


I think my biggest problem with the economy's evolution is the subtle changes we're anticipating but have not yet felt. I'm referring to things that our parents have and we will not. Medical benefits for life and/or reasonably priced medical care have largely become a thing of the past as have corporate sponsored pensions. The eminent demise of Social Security is another issue that will drastically change retirement for most people. These economic changes will alter the face of our society over the next 20-30 years and affect not only retirees but those who have to support them. These problems will alter and change the face of American society far more than material expectations and desires.

Middle class values have definitely changed as have middle class aspirations. Credit has largely altered the availability of money for people at all levels of society. Misuse of credit will create problems in the short term; availability of money will be tight in the short term. The problems cited above, however, seem to be here to stay and will drastically alter our spending patterns as society marches toward an older, less dynamic state.

dvcgirl
05-28-2008, 06:47 AM
I think my biggest problem with the economy's evolution is the subtle changes we're anticipating but have not yet felt. I'm referring to things that our parents have and we will not. Medical benefits for life and/or reasonably priced medical care have largely become a thing of the past as have corporate sponsored pensions. The eminent demise of Social Security is another issue that will drastically change retirement for most people. These economic changes will alter the face of our society over the next 20-30 years and affect not only retirees but those who have to support them. These problems will alter and change the face of American society far more than material expectations and desires.

Middle class values have definitely changed as have middle class aspirations. Credit has largely altered the availability of money for people at all levels of society. Misuse of credit will create problems in the short term; availability of money will be tight in the short term. The problems cited above, however, seem to be here to stay and will drastically alter our spending patterns as society marches toward an older, less dynamic state.

I think both you and Mrs Pete have great points. I agree with Mrs Pete in that we *have* raised our expectations in our middle class. A "starter home" ain't what it used to be. The problem is that a whole lot of the fuel for that big "step-up" in lifestyle was provided by easy credit, borrowed money and spending nearly every penny we make. And so, to a great degree, the middle class leveraged its way up a step or two in the lifestyle department. We know that this is a fact. We have only to look to our national savings rate, our IRA balances, our 401K balances, our debt levels......they tell the whole story.

And I completely agree with your thoughts on the "subtle changes we're anticipating but have not yet felt". They're subtle now, but will become more and more of a drag as we move forward. We're either going to begin to face our entitlement issues, and soon, or we'll end up bankrupt as a nation. Same with respect to our trade deficit and our national debt level. Most of the middle class and everyone above them won't be getting the benefits that they've been promised, especially with respect to Medicare.

I'm 40, and the retirement that my parents generation is experiencing now is not the one that my peers will experience. And yet, when surveyed, people my age believe that their quality of life will go *up* in retirement. They couldn't be more wrong.

dvcgirl
05-28-2008, 06:59 AM
Respectfully, "scientists" have determined no such thing; pandering politicians and environmental activists have. We have large untapped oil resources, including potentially the equivalent of 2 trillion barrels of oil in shale deposits in the west, which we should be exploring and developing the technologies to mine. It's certainly not the only solution, and should be combined with investing in new technologies, but reducing our dependence on hostile nations for oil even by 20 or 30 percent would be a good thing.

Yes, in flipping through talk radio stations I've heard right-wing radio hosts go on and on about our "vast oil shale deposits". Before you jump on me, I have voted for republicans.

I'm not denying that we have these shale deposits. We do. However if you do just a little bit of research you'd read how much energy is required to heat the shale, get it to the surface and then refine it. The amount of water required alone is astounding. And the process is in no way perfected. To get that process to a mass scale is decades away.

It's the same thing with ANWR....all you read is that there are somewhere from 4-20 billion barrels of oil there. Sounds great, but at the most, we'd get one million barrels a day out of there.....if we were lucky.... less than 5% of our daily oil consumption. And again, ANWR wouldn't provide one drop of oil for at least 5 years if we started drilling today. Five years from now it will more like 3% of our consumption unless we begin to conserve.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't drill in our own territories. I think that we're going to have to do that to help us make the transition to renewable sources. However, it's not as easy as turning on the "oil shale" spigot or tapping into ANWR and flipping off the Saudis.

Ciao Mickey
05-28-2008, 07:10 AM
I'm a pretty optimistic gal. I'm old enough to have lived through the turbulent 60's and this seems like a walk in the park as compared to those times. We waivered between worried about being blow to bits by the Russians, being killed in the riots over civil rights or being killed in Vietnam.
We will survive this also.

Aren't you comparing apples to oranges?

The economy of the 1960's was stable. Jobs were plentiful. Men (and women) could support a family on a blue-collar salary. Manufacturing was still here in the USA. Not like today where almost everything is made overseas.

Job security does not exist today like it did back in the 1960's. We keep bleeding jobs overseas and we have a huge illegal alien problem that our short-sighted politicians refuse to do anything about. Not to mention the war that is sucking us dry.

I don't think we are at "crisis" level yet, but if we continue on our current path, who knows what's in store for our future generations.

Mo-Yo
05-28-2008, 07:31 AM
Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't drill in our own territories. I think that we're going to have to do that to help us make the transition to renewable sources. However, it's not as easy as turning on the "oil shale" spigot or tapping into ANWR and flipping off the Saudis.

And in the mean time, I believe we won't see much relief from energy costs...unfortunately.

I know the economy goes in cycles, but some of the things we are facing - dependence on non-renewable energy, debt, healthcare costs/issues, mortgage issues - have been on the radar for a long time. Plus, many people have improved their standard of living through acquiring massive debt. And as a country our debt is increasing every day because of the war.

We've been putting our heads in the sand about a lot of stuff. The sky isn't falling, but nobody is making this stuff up.

Still, I am very hopeful we will put our ingenuity and talents toward facing some of these problems. It's what our grandparents' generation did during the Depression and World War II, and with good leadership I believe we can, too.

:hippie:

eliza61
05-28-2008, 07:35 AM
Aren't you comparing apples to oranges?

The economy of the 1960's was stable. Jobs were plentiful. Men (and women) could support a family on a blue-collar salary. Manufacturing was still here in the USA. Not like today where almost everything is made overseas.

Job security does not exist today like it did back in the 1960's. We keep bleeding jobs overseas and we have a huge illegal alien problem that our short-sighted politicians refuse to do anything about. Not to mention the war that is sucking us dry. Yes, we did it was called the Vietnam War.I don't think we are at "crisis" level yet, but if we continue on our current path, who knows what's in store for our future generations.

Not at all, I wasn't really comparing economic situations I was thinking more "national mindset" and that is very similar. Just like today, the news was filled with "The nation is going down the toilet quickly" stories. We weren't worried about our financial futures because many of us did not believe we were going to have a future, especially if you were a teenager. Every story was either: the number of kids being killed in Vietnam, the horrible treatment of African Americans in the South and the riots on college campus. If you think the news today is bad, try looking at young kids your age being torn apart by german shepards day after day or better yet try have nuclear drills in your elementary school (never understood how I was going to be protected by getting under my desk. :lmao: ) and unemployment in the minority community was hovering around 20% so we've always had economic struggles to contend with.


Basically my point is, that we have always had doom and gloom reports and we've always had horrible presidents. we've managed to survive.

Jakesmom504
05-28-2008, 07:35 AM
You gotta have priorities!

I know what you mean though, I used to worry about every little thing and I finally had to let it all go. Good luck with school! That's one thing I've always regretted - not finishing school!

Thank you! I have an interview with a nursing school in a few weeks so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Ciao Mickey
05-28-2008, 07:51 AM
Not to belittle your comment, but I hate when people talk about a "fixed" income, as if those of us who aren't retired yet can just increase our income with the snap of our fingers. Realistically, with things the way they are, most of us aren't getting raises or bonuses anyway. I work in the non-profit sector and I'm wondering if I need to start looking for a job soon. That scares the crap out of me because things aren't exactly good in the part-time with morning hours job market.



The difference is you as a younger person can find a new better-paying job, or find a second or third job to supplement your income. What is a person, who is in their 70's, 80's or 90's, to do when they are too old for the job market?

Ciao Mickey
05-28-2008, 08:00 AM
I certainly agree with Loco. The "news" you are getting is a load of crap for two reasons.

1.) The "news" business is just that...a business. They are doing what they need to do to increase ad revenue, etc. Negative news sells, so of course you wouldnt expect to hear anything positive about the economy.

2.) It is unprecedented that you have "news" sources openly endorsing political candidates (NBC is BY FAR the worst, see: Matthews, Olbermann, etc). How can you expect to hear anything good about an economy that is half run by a political party that is other than that of Obama's? It's truly unbelievable.

And on another note, everyone is quick to blame Bush for everything. We call it Bushderangement Syndrome (BS). Let's not forget who has controlled Congress for the past year and a half.

And last, the blame most needs to be put on the American consumer. This could even be you. For example. "Wow, look at that nice new 50" plasma TV over there, I HAVE to have that!" Problem is, that person may not have a single dollar to their name. VISA to the rescue! The irresponsibility of the American consumer's financial situation is ridiculous. They may not have a dollar in savings, or IRA, or their children's college fund. But by God, they are driving that brand new Cadillac Escalade with 4 DVD screens in the back seat, living in a house that they know they cant afford, and watching a new TV with custom-installed sound system. People need to start acting their wage.
Unfortunately, the current problems our economy is facing right now originated by the reflection in the mirror in many cases. We need to stop expecting government to take care of our problems and start taking care of ourselves. Then, everything will fall in to place.

www.daveramsey.com

:thumbsup2 ::yes:: :thumbsup2

dvcgirl
05-28-2008, 08:06 AM
And in the mean time, I believe we won't see much relief from energy costs...unfortunately.

I know the economy goes in cycles, but some of the things we are facing - dependence on non-renewable energy, debt, healthcare costs/issues, mortgage issues - have been on the radar for a long time. Plus, many people have improved their standard of living through acquiring massive debt. And as a country our debt is increasing every day because of the war.

We've been putting our heads in the sand about a lot of stuff. The sky isn't falling, but nobody is making this stuff up.

Still, I am very hopeful we will put our ingenuity and talents toward facing some of these problems. It's what our grandparents' generation did during the Depression and World War II, and with good leadership I believe we can, too.

:hippie:


I agree with you to a great degree, but I just don't think our political system is set up to deal with the issues we're facing. When the sole goal of *every* politician is in getting re-hired every four years....well.....I can't see any of our current leaders stepping up to the plate. *Nobody* is going to like the prescription to solve our current problems because it will require a great deal of sacrifice on the part of nearly every citizen.

We're going to need an Entitlement Program Commission of some sort to hand down the bad news. How do we choose this commission? I'm not sure, but clearly they can't be paid or elected officials. I do know that we need to make these changes as soon as possible so that the citizens of this country can begin to adjust. We've already made those adjustments....we pretty much figure that these programs won't be available to us in their current form.

I was flipping through channels last night and caught a little of The Dave Ramsey show on the Fox Business Channel. I don't always agree with what Dave has to say, especially when it comes to his investment advice. However, one quote of his is very, very true. "What happens in your house is much more important than what happens in The White House". A lot of people just sit around and complain about Bush, or Clinton.....or fill-in the blank.

Sure they may raise my taxes, but then we'll just have to figure out a way to make more or spend less. We certainly won't *save* less. We've already figured out that we all should be saving as much as we can. Yes, they'll probably take most of what they've promised me in Social Security or half of my future Medicare benefits. I'm already planning for that......now, 25 years before I hit 65. What I do today will have much, much more of an impact on my future than what Obama or McCain or any other politician will have on me.

The partisanship in this country will be our downfall. I think if we could abolish Limbaugh, Franken, Hannity, Sharpton, Coulter, Matthews and all of the other mouthpieces from both sides of the aisle....well, I think the world would be a much better place.

Ciao Mickey
05-28-2008, 08:13 AM
They also haven't funded much research into alternative energy. But we can't just blame them. We spent 15 years with a society that played the "my SUV is bigger than yours" game and saying "why shouldn't I heat a 2000 square foot home for two people with 17 foot ceilings." Our government has subsidized entire industries based on petrochemicals, while its pooh-poohed funding for sustainable tech. It isn't like we haven't seen this coming since the Carter administration (and before that). We choose to ignore it - politically and culturally - unless it actually hurts.

I remember the gas lines of 1973 and it's always amazed me how Detroit never learned a lesson from it. They kept on building bigger and bigger gas guzzling vehicles.

Let's face it, we are energy hogs. No wonder the rest of the world resents us.

punkin
05-28-2008, 08:37 AM
The partisanship in this country will be our downfall.

Completely off topic, but this is not true at all. Our country was built on the idea that "factions" are a vital part of Democracy and they act as counterweights to the prevalent political pull towards dictatorship by preventing power from pooling in one set of hands. I'm paraphrasing the Federalist Papers.

eliza61
05-28-2008, 08:53 AM
I remember the gas lines of 1973 and it's always amazed me how Detroit never learned a lesson from it. They kept on building bigger and bigger gas guzzling vehicles.

Let's face it, we are energy hogs. No wonder the rest of the world resents us.


:rotfl2: :rotfl2: Soo true. In the NY/NJ area we have these things on the highway called HOV lanes, it stands for High occupancy vehicles. The theory was supposed to promote car pooling. If you had more than 2 people in your car, you got to travel in the faster HOV lanes. During rush hour you always see the cars in the hOV lanes are small hondas and Toyotas, crammed in with 5 Adults. Then you look over & see the big SUV's and Hummers with a grand total of 1

Solomonsmom81
05-28-2008, 09:16 AM
I just want to say it must be really really nice NOT to have to worry about the economy, gas prices, or grocery bills, pay for rent and bills, and have money to sit at home and plan for a nice WDW trip, I havent been to WDW since I was 10 and mom and dad paid for that trip. I come on this board for the freebies and help with my budget, and I dont plan on going to WDW for a very long time ( maybe never at this piont). I also don't have to watch the news to feel it, my DH just got his hours cut and we are taking a $200 month loss, and his company is about to be sold to their competitor because of the economy so he might not even have a job soon ( we are praying constantly about this) and he drives 45 min to work in Michigan and he can't just jump up and find another job because there aren't any here, I am currently going to school full time for nursing so I can get back to work to better our income. We have one car so I can't work while he does plus we have 2 kids so then that would be daycare we would have to pay for and well I would be working to pay for the gas to get to work and for the daycare... SO those of you that are truly BLESSED and don't or choose not to worry about what is going on in this country, remember there are those that are very worried and are hurting, and say a little prayer as you lay down without a worry of money or how to pay for your next trip, and be greatful that your only worry is that a silly little ride wont be working as you visit somewhere that only so many wish they could even dream of going... Along with the others we dont have a fancy car, we have a cell phone that my DH got from his work and they are taking that away any day now, im on dial up so I can do online classes for school , no cable tv, and don't do anything that cost money except buy food and go to work and school. So I'm wondering how do I cut things out when there's nothing left to cut out and start budgeting around the economy???
Well this thread makes this statement true ... "THE GRASS IS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE!!"

crisi
05-28-2008, 09:40 AM
Well this thread makes this statement true ... "THE GRASS IS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE!!"

Yeah, I think I'd trade financial security for a healthy family and a family home that didn't just get taken out by a tornado. I haven't felt particularly blessed of late.

las3888
05-28-2008, 09:50 AM
Yes, in flipping through talk radio stations I've heard right-wing radio hosts go on and on about our "vast oil shale deposits". Before you jump on me, I have voted for republicans.

I'm not denying that we have these shale deposits. We do. However if you do just a little bit of research you'd read how much energy is required to heat the shale, get it to the surface and then refine it. The amount of water required alone is astounding. And the process is in no way perfected. To get that process to a mass scale is decades away.

It's the same thing with ANWR....all you read is that there are somewhere from 4-20 billion barrels of oil there. Sounds great, but at the most, we'd get one million barrels a day out of there.....if we were lucky.... less than 5% of our daily oil consumption. And again, ANWR wouldn't provide one drop of oil for at least 5 years if we started drilling today. Five years from now it will more like 3% of our consumption unless we begin to conserve.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't drill in our own territories. I think that we're going to have to do that to help us make the transition to renewable sources. However, it's not as easy as turning on the "oil shale" spigot or tapping into ANWR and flipping off the Saudis.


The problem with figuring out whether drilling for oil or not is that there are so many different opinions, and it all depends on who you ask. Here is some interesting statistical information below. I do believe it's worth 5% of consumption for a possible 32 years...after all, we only get 11.5% of our oil from the Saudis..it's just worth saying that some feel it's a total waste of time, while others feel passionately that it's in our best interest.


The U.S. consumes about 20 million barrels (3,200,000 m³) daily. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge oil reserves were used to supply 5% of the U.S. daily consumption -- most is imported from Canada (19%), Mexico (15%), Saudi Arabia (11.5%), Nigeria (10.5%) and Venezuela (10.5%)[11] -- the reserves, using the low figure of 4.3 billion barrels (680,000,000 m³), would last approximately 4300 days, or almost 12 years. Using the high estimate, the reserves would last approximately 11800 days, or 32 years. Using the increasing price of oil this supply (with 10.5 billion barrel mean and crude oil at over $120 a barrel) would be worth 1,260,000,000,000.00 ($1.26 trillion).

MrsPete
05-28-2008, 12:43 PM
As an example, I remember recently reading an article about a consumer confidence survey. It asked respondents 1) How do you think the economy is doing? The majority said "terrible." Then it asked 2) How is your personal economic picture? And the majority said "Great!" I think that disconnect can be traced to the media's effect on people's perceptions. They may be doing OK, but they've "heard" that everyone else is falling apart.I think there's some truth to what you're saying . . . but I don't think it's the whole picture. My personal finances are fine; yes, I'm concerned about rising prices, but I'm not in trouble. However, I know 5-6 people -- intelligent, educated people with good work histories -- who've been laid off, and though they're actively searching they can't find work. So I do see these things personally; you could argue that they're blown out of proportion in people's minds, but they're not fictional.I'm referring to things that our parents have and we will not . . . Medical benefits for life . . . eminent demise of Social Security I'm two years older than you are, and I've heard for years that ours is expected to be the first generation of Americans who are expected to "have it worse" than our parents. Looking back across our country's short history, every generation has experienced an increase in income, availability of goods, new technologies . . . economists predicted years ago that we'd have less. I didn't really believe it -- but now I'm wondering if it's true. I really do think our generation will be devestated when we reach retirement age; so few are prepared.The difference is you as a younger person can find a new better-paying job, or find a second or third job to supplement your income. What is a person, who is in their 70's, 80's or 90's, to do when they are too old for the job market?You're painting with a broad brush. The younger person may not be able to afford job training for a better-paying job or may have family responsibilities that prevent him or her from taking a second job. In the meanwhile, the older person may own properties that could be sold off to raise cash. No, the term "fixed income" is just used incorrectly when it's used to describe someone who's retired or someone whose income is low. The vast majority of us have "fixed incomes".

gina2000
05-28-2008, 01:06 PM
LOL! How do you know how old I am?

mpls_mm
05-28-2008, 01:16 PM
I was looking through a magazine while at the car dealership today and I noticed there is a seminar on facing the labor shortage. I have been advertising for help and I know other business owners who still have a hard time finding good people. Labor is the hardest part of being a business owner or manager. I will routinely get at least 100 resumes of people who don't have a single qualification I am looking for, another 100 will look like crap and be full of mistakes. I had one with an attachment and the note said she would not come to work for me for less than 50K, she had no college and no skills that were useful in a business world. People are rude and demanding and rarely take the time to even find out about your company. They tell you drama stories and do things no one should do in an interview. Every interviewer can tell you stories you would not believe, but the fact is, it is no easier for me to find good help than it was 5 years ago, it is harder. Frequently when someone is out of work for a long time they either have obscure skills, are from a very specific sector or are doing something wrong.

dvcgirl
05-28-2008, 01:45 PM
LOL! How do you know how old I am?

I think maybe Mrs Pete was referring to me....I said in another post that I was 40. So, how old are you anyway? Just kidding ;)

gina2000
05-28-2008, 02:07 PM
I think maybe Mrs Pete was referring to me....I said in another post that I was 40. So, how old are you anyway? Just kidding ;)

Well, let's put it this way.....I remember the British Invasion....:lmao:

speedyf
05-28-2008, 02:25 PM
The U.S. consumes about 20 million barrels (3,200,000 m³) daily. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge oil reserves were used to supply 5% of the U.S. daily consumption -- most is imported from Canada (19%), Mexico (15%), Saudi Arabia (11.5%), Nigeria (10.5%) and Venezuela (10.5%)[11] -- the reserves, using the low figure of 4.3 billion barrels (680,000,000 m³), would last approximately 4300 days, or almost 12 years. Using the high estimate, the reserves would last approximately 11800 days, or 32 years. Using the increasing price of oil this supply (with 10.5 billion barrel mean and crude oil at over $120 a barrel) would be worth 1,260,000,000,000.00 ($1.26 trillion).

I totally agree with this assessment. Since I live in the actual heart of the energy corridor, I have seen the ups and downs. The port about 20 minutes from my home is responsible for servicing the oil fields that bring in about 28% of our oil domestically ... http://www.portfourchon.com/

Every time someone talks about drilling in Alaska or drilling off the east coast or west coast or Florida coast, the responses are always:

#1 - It will take at least 5 years before that oil production will come online
#2 - There is only enough oil to last for a few years, so it's not worth it

To address each:

#1 - If we had done it 10 years ago when Clinton vetoed the drilling in ANWR, it would be online today. I don't think we will be much better off in 5 years from now, so why not put it into action today to help us down the road. Just the announcement that the ANWR or other "off-limit" places will open up for exploration will cause the speculators to drive the price down or cause OPEC to increase production or both.

#2 - I agree that there is not enough oil to last us forever in the untapped fields. Drilling in these areas would decrease our dependence of foreign oil and give us a little more time to find alternatives.

Oil production is in decline and the demand is getting greater, but I can see that people will start looking to alternatives in the future and that the demand in the U.S. will peak at some point and start falling. Look at how well Hybrids are selling. The auto makers are testing hydrogen cars, electric cars, etc. People are looking at solar (this is pretty cool....http://www.nanosolar.comand wind energy (http://http://www.livescience.com/technology/ap_051024_wind_farm.html)

I think the answer would be to drill everywhere possible domestically while developing alternatives so we can lower our dependence on oil.

I'm not an oil expert, but I think some of the oil companies really moved away from drilling as much domestically because the price per barrel was too cheap to go through the legwork (environmental, poltical, financial) of exploring in the Gulf of Mexico. At $10 or $12 per barrel, it's easier to just buy from the Saudis. Now that the price is high, there seems to be more going on down in this area. Also, the technology to find oil keeps improving which brings the cost down when exploring.

I have also seen many bigger companies in this area expanding out into Brazil for the past few years. It seems that these guys probably knew that there was an oil reserve off the coast of Brazil waiting to be discovered.

As for the economy, it basically runs in cycles. I was a little young to really remember the shortages in the 70's, but I do remember the bad economic times for my area in the mid to late 80's when oil was around $9 or $10 per barrel. Companies that service the oil field down here were going bankrupt left and right and people were moving away. We owned a company in the area and actually shut down shop and moved to Tennessee where my dad took a job at $5 per hour and my mom worked a job at $3.35 per hour. We went from living in a 2300 sq foot brick home in Louisiana to living in a 14x70 mobile home in a trailer park in Tennessee.

I also agree that it will take some kind of revolution by the taxpayers before Washington gets fixed. It doesn't matter if we elect any of the 3 candidates running for President now and it doesn't matter who we elect to Congress, the problem will not be fixed by any of them. Partisan politics is not tearing the country apart. It's the lack of leadership because politicians are afraid of losing their jobs. They don't make decisions that help the country, they make decisions that help them get re-elected.

Speed :teleport:

loco4dis
05-28-2008, 03:16 PM
Actually, I believe Mo Yo is correct. Here's a link I wish you'd look at:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

This man has studied Peak Oil for some time and addresses everything you say. Simply put, at a certain point existing oil is just too expensive to bother with. Everything the site owner says is backed up with links including scientists. Actually, I think many politicians do use this issue to divide and confuse us.

The site you direct posters to promotes the theory of "peak oil" — that we are fast approaching a time when we will have used more than half the world's oil and will begin a downward spiral. I'm old enough to recall that we were going to reach "peak oil" in the 1970s (we also were on the brink of annihilation from global cooling back then). Then, peak oil was going to occur in the early 1990s. Then it was 2006. Now it's 2032. And each time, we have found new reserves and developed new technologies to secure oil. To simply give up on oil is absurd. It ensures future Third World status for the US (something, I might add, that many around the world would enjoy seeing). Though we've been drilling for oil for over a century, there is still much we don't understand about the nature of oil and the underground phenomena that lead to its creation. When oil is too expensive to get to, we have developed new technologies to get to it.

Yes, we must invest in alternative energies, but the "sky is falling" theories out there just don't hold up over time, and they create tremendous economic strife in their wake. We're fast becoming an "either you're for oil (and evil) or you're against oil (and virtuous)" nation. Such thinking empowers politicians to enact crippling policies like setting aside vast territories of land as "federal land" where drilling won't be allowed or making it illegal to drill off of our nation's shores. A member of Congress last week said she wants to nationalize the American oil industry, and barely anyone blinked! It's astonishing. Nationalize the oil industry? You'd be saying good-bye to virtually every pension fund in the nation — all of which invest heavily in the oil industry — not to mention the stock market, which would simply implode, and no one finds her remarks shocking at all because we've all bought into this "crisis" story. So, the government gets ahold of the vast resources of the oil industry (and the sheer power that comes with that), and what do we get? We get financially obliterated and therefore utterly dependent on — guess who? — the government! And they're doing a really fine job, these days, aren't they? I really think history will look back on these times and it will be amazing how such intelligent people were duped into giving up so much of their freedom and prosperity by simple scare tactics and hyperbole. I only hope my children and grand children will be able to wrestle some of it back when all is said and done.

MrsPete
05-28-2008, 03:20 PM
LOL! How do you know how old I am?Didn't you say in the part of the quote that I cut out that you're 40? If I've mixed up posters, then I'm sorry.I think maybe Mrs Pete was referring to me....I said in another post that I was 40. So, how old are you anyway? Just kidding ;)Yeah, I think that's what I did.

eliza61
05-28-2008, 03:25 PM
I totally agree with this assessment. Since I live in the actual heart of the energy corridor, I have seen the ups and downs. The port about 20 minutes from my home is responsible for servicing the oil fields that bring in about 28% of our oil domestically ... http://www.portfourchon.com/

Every time someone talks about drilling in Alaska or drilling off the east coast or west coast or Florida coast, the responses are always:

#1 - It will take at least 5 years before that oil production will come online
#2 - There is only enough oil to last for a few years, so it's not worth it

To address each:

#1 - If we had done it 10 years ago when Clinton vetoed the drilling in ANWR, it would be online today. I don't think we will be much better off in 5 years from now, so why not put it into action today to help us down the road. Just the announcement that the ANWR or other "off-limit" places will open up for exploration will cause the speculators to drive the price down or cause OPEC to increase production or both.

#2 - I agree that there is not enough oil to last us forever in the untapped fields. Drilling in these areas would decrease our dependence of foreign oil and give us a little more time to find alternatives.

Oil production is in decline and the demand is getting greater, but I can see that people will start looking to alternatives in the future and that the demand in the U.S. will peak at some point and start falling. Look at how well Hybrids are selling. The auto makers are testing hydrogen cars, electric cars, etc. People are looking at solar (this is pretty cool....http://www.nanosolar.comand wind energy (http://http://www.livescience.com/technology/ap_051024_wind_farm.html)

I think the answer would be to drill everywhere possible domestically while developing alternatives so we can lower our dependence on oil.

I'm not an oil expert, but I think some of the oil companies really moved away from drilling as much domestically because the price per barrel was too cheap to go through the legwork (environmental, poltical, financial) of exploring in the Gulf of Mexico. At $10 or $12 per barrel, it's easier to just buy from the Saudis. Now that the price is high, there seems to be more going on down in this area. Also, the technology to find oil keeps improving which brings the cost down when exploring.

I have also seen many bigger companies in this area expanding out into Brazil for the past few years. It seems that these guys probably knew that there was an oil reserve off the coast of Brazil waiting to be discovered.

As for the economy, it basically runs in cycles. I was a little young to really remember the shortages in the 70's, but I do remember the bad economic times for my area in the mid to late 80's when oil was around $9 or $10 per barrel. Companies that service the oil field down here were going bankrupt left and right and people were moving away. We owned a company in the area and actually shut down shop and moved to Tennessee where my dad took a job at $5 per hour and my mom worked a job at $3.35 per hour. We went from living in a 2300 sq foot brick home in Louisiana to living in a 14x70 mobile home in a trailer park in Tennessee.

I also agree that it will take some kind of revolution by the taxpayers before Washington gets fixed. It doesn't matter if we elect any of the 3 candidates running for President now and it doesn't matter who we elect to Congress, the problem will not be fixed by any of them. Partisan politics is not tearing the country apart. It's the lack of leadership because politicians are afraid of losing their jobs. They don't make decisions that help the country, they make decisions that help them get re-elected.

Speed :teleport:
Just a quick question, after we've drilled all this so called oil from alaska, what do you propose we do with it? As a household with 2 people that work full time for a major oil company. We are at refinery max. Oil straight out of the ground will not do us any good. 2 major oil companies have for years been trying to build new refineries or expand the ones we already have, do you have any idea of the opposition to that. I believe India just finished building a huge brand new state of the art refinery, so once again demand by other countries is going to sky rocket.

gina2000
05-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Didn't you say in the part of the quote that I cut out that you're 40?


:lmao:

That dog has come and gone.......:rotfl2:

DVC Sadie
05-28-2008, 03:35 PM
Just a quick question, after we've drilled all this so called oil from alaska, what do you propose we do with it? As a household with 2 people that work full time for a major oil company. We are at refinery max. Oil straight out of the ground will not do us any good. 2 major oil companies have for years been trying to build new refineries or expand the ones we already have, do you have any idea of the opposition to that. I believe India just finished building a huge brand new state of the art refinery, so once again demand by other countries is going to sky rocket.

I, agree!

I have often stated on these types of threads that just drilling will not solve any of our $$$ costs per gallon or per barrel until we invest in more refineries and other types of energy.


Until we are willing to drill, refine, drive less (smaller and more fuel efficient vehicles), find alternative energy sources and basically re-defne our needs from wants we will not be better off in 5 years than we are now.

Pretty soon the middle class will also be redefined which will come as a shock to a lot of us.

nunzia
05-28-2008, 03:52 PM
I'm a pretty optimistic gal. I'm old enough to have lived through the turbulent 60's and this seems like a walk in the park as compared to those times. We waivered between worried about being blow to bits by the Russians, being killed in the riots over civil rights or being killed in Vietnam.
We will survive this also.


I'm with you! Yes..stuff is more expensive, but so far we haven't had to wait in an hour or two line for gas like the 70's..my stocks aren't great, but they aren't horrid either, our jobs are secure and we are doing fine..just watching it a little more.
Frugal (cheap) people always can get through it..we have more wiggle room I think.

speedyf
05-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Just a quick question, after we've drilled all this so called oil from alaska, what do you propose we do with it? As a household with 2 people that work full time for a major oil company. We are at refinery max. Oil straight out of the ground will not do us any good. 2 major oil companies have for years been trying to build new refineries or expand the ones we already have, do you have any idea of the opposition to that. I believe India just finished building a huge brand new state of the art refinery, so once again demand by other countries is going to sky rocket.

There has always been resistance for building new refineries. People weren't really that worried about it when oil was $20, $30, $40 per barrel. Now that it's affecting the pocketbook, I would think that the oil companies have better leverage to be able to re-open their case to build a new refinery or two. Of course, the oil companies probably weren't pushing that hard to spend billions for new refineries when the price of oil was $20 per barrel. The margin that a refinery makes probably wasn't that high at the time. Now that they are making record profits and the price of oil is approaching $150 per barrel, they may want to look at building more refinieries again.

Again...I'm not an oil expert.....just been around the support industry pretty much all my life. I'm wondering how long it took for India to build that refinery. Everyone that even mentions "refinery" in the U.S. is always told it will take 15 years to build a new one. That goes along with the "5 to 10 years before we get oil out the ground and 15 years before we can finish a refinery to get a finished product."

Just doing a quick Google search, I found this article about U.S. companies investing in refineries abroad because of all the environmental and political BS in the U.S. Again....our politicians at work to "help us".

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06241/717209-28.stm

You want to talk about sending jobs and business overseas....there it is.

It's a 2006 article...but, it also talks about how they envision that the U.S. demand will eventually decline because of alternative fuels and hybrid vehicles. Wouldn't it be great to drill these "off limit" areas and at some point actually be a net exporter of oil....(I doubt it).

Speed :teleport:

MermaidsMom
05-28-2008, 03:56 PM
Just a quick question, after we've drilled all this so called oil from alaska, what do you propose we do with it? As a household with 2 people that work full time for a major oil company. We are at refinery max. Oil straight out of the ground will not do us any good. 2 major oil companies have for years been trying to build new refineries or expand the ones we already have, do you have any idea of the opposition to that. I believe India just finished building a huge brand new state of the art refinery, so once again demand by other countries is going to sky rocket.

This was covered while discussing the 5 year myth which is used to explain why drilling makes no sense. Politicians have been using the 5 year myth for 25 years. If they would simply BEGIN building a refinery, 5 years from now it would actually be done. We have all the oil we need right under our feet but politicians prefer donations into their campaign accounts from lobbyist who don't want drilling rather than fix the problem.

nunzia
05-28-2008, 03:59 PM
This is one of the smartest posts I have ever read.

I would add that we are also not developing viable alternate energy sources in this country, and we certainly have the know-how to do it.


I agree here..I started whining about how we needed to get away from oil dependency in the 70's..and here we still are. You'd think people smarter than me would have figured out that the term non renewable resource meant, "start planning ahead!"

MrMarv
05-28-2008, 04:07 PM
Outsourcing isn't going away until our tax codes, immigration policies, and legal system are all cleaned up and/or show some signs of balance and common sense.

Congress has created all of these problems, but they don't have the guts and/or willpower to fix them.

The fact that the Democrats have banned all drilling off our coasts for decades is no secret, but begging the Saudis to drill more under the threat of lawsuits is beyond asinine!!!

Of course, Democrats are universally noted for being ignorant from an economics standpoint, so wat else is new?

runwad
05-28-2008, 05:18 PM
Ok sorry to be so clueless here but someone educate me. Just why do we not want to build any new refineries here???

goodeats
05-28-2008, 06:04 PM
Ok sorry to be so clueless here but someone educate me. Just why do we not want to build any new refineries here???

NIMBYs don't want them.

I work near a few, and they are definitely an eyesore and make the air quality (in sight and smell) quite poor around them. Not to mention the potential danger.

It's easy to say build more over there, but what if you live over there?

loco4dis
05-28-2008, 06:16 PM
NIMBYs don't want them.

I work near a few, and they are definitely an eyesore and make the air quality (in sight and smell) quite poor around them. Not to mention the potential danger.

It's easy to say build more over there, but what if you live over there?


Build them in remote areas — not so far that employees can't reach them, but far enough that the NIMBYs won't whine. There is lots of such land in the US. There are plenty of rural areas in this nation that would jump for joy if an oil refinery and its lucrative jobs landed in their back yard.

runwad
05-28-2008, 06:47 PM
Ok what's a NIMBY?:rotfl:

aka-mad4themouse
05-28-2008, 06:56 PM
Ok what's a NIMBY?:rotfl:
Not
In
My
Back
Yard

MrMarv
05-28-2008, 07:28 PM
NIMBY--Not In My Back Yard.

heartbeeps
05-28-2008, 07:49 PM
[QUOTE=MrsPete;25354375]... Off-topic, but I hate that phrase: "on a fixed income". With a few exceptions (i.e., salespeople who work on commission), we're ALL on a fixed income. Some are fixed higher, some are fixed lower. My boss pays me the same thing every month -- most people's bosses do. But people use the phrase "on a fixed income" to mean on a LOW income. Rant over.

I apologize for offending you and others by using the words "fixed income." It was meant to imply those folks who have no POTENTIAL to make more money whether it be by getting an additional job, a different job, or even getting more education to earn more money. It was meant to imply folks for example like the elderly and/or the disabled that are OUT OF THE JOB MARKET. It was not meant to imply "low income." As far as I'm concerned, it could be fixed low or high or anywhere in between.

I was only going by the industry-standard definition of "fixed income" provided by Wikipedia. Wikipedia defines the words "fixed income" as - ... The term fixed income is also applied to a person's income that does not vary with each period. This can include income derived from fixed-income investments such as bonds and preferred stocks or pensions that guarantee a fixed income. When pensioners or retirees are dependent on their pension as their dominant source of income, the term "fixed income" can also carry the implication that they have relatively limited discretionary income or have little financial freedom to make large expenditures.

So, given that definition, I'd say over a period of years, a retirees income is "fixed"; his/her pension (if he/she gets one) is not going to increase! Whereas those not on what I'd call a fixed income do have the POTENTIAL for an increase - maybe not every year but over time.

I had no idea something that's used in the media day-in and day-out would be offensive to folks on a Disney board. Once again, I am so very sorry I set you off on a rant. Please accept my humblest apologies. I have certainly learned my lesson!

MoniqueU
05-28-2008, 09:33 PM
This thread is bumming me out.
Also I stopped watching the local news years ago because of all the dramatic stories. I only watch Fox now. Most of their news right now is political, not my favorite kind, I watch for the crime news stories, anyway very little about gas prices and grocery prices is being covered there right now. I don't know what news outlets the rest of you watch but the media I watch is not all doom and gloom.

As posted earlier I am worried about our family and our friends. I know tons of people out of work, the list seems to grow weekly. We are watching every penny and eating in more. We still may not be able to cut our budgets enough to get by. My husbands job is not a fixed income low or high. He is on straight commision tied very closely to the economy. He works more hours then anyone I know and can't get a part time job to help us. I am legally blind and can't really think of anything I could do to help out. I just hope we get through this. I havent seen the price at the pump since saturday but I think the price increase here has slowed.

Mo-Yo
05-29-2008, 06:18 AM
We have all the oil we need right under our feet but politicians prefer donations into their campaign accounts from lobbyist who don't want drilling rather than fix the problem.

I highly doubt the environmental lobby is more powerful than teh oil lobby. Otherwise we would have much better incentive programs for developing fuel efficient cars and alternative power sources like solar and wind.

speedyf
05-29-2008, 02:33 PM
I highly doubt the environmental lobby is more powerful than teh oil lobby. Otherwise we would have much better incentive programs for developing fuel efficient cars and alternative power sources like solar and wind.

I agree. I think the lack of refinery building can be attributed partly to envirnomental and NIMBY concerns.....but, probably the biggest part was money.

When oil was at $20 / $30 / $40 per barrel, the return on investment for a refinery costing billions to build would have been bad. The margin made on refining oil was supposedly a slim number. No one really cared because gas prices were not high.

Just like with the decisions of Disney, the oil companies do what is best for the shareholders. It seems that now that oil is up above $100 per barrel, it may be more cost effective to build a refinery and the return on investment may be a little better. This is all speculation on my part from reading bits and pieces online.

Speed :teleport:

MrMarv
05-31-2008, 08:09 PM
Environmentalists (and their Democratic cohorts) have prevented off shore oil drilling for over twenty years. For them to beg the Saudis to increase drilling under the threat of lawsuits is asinine and then some!!!

To expect them to help us due to self-inflicted acts of stupidity which have only served to exacerbate problems within our faltering economy (with the domestic automakers among the biggest vctims) makes no sense.

crisi
05-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Environmentalists (and their Democratic cohorts) have prevented off shore oil drilling for over twenty years. For them to beg the Saudis to increase drilling under the threat of lawsuits is asinine and then some!!!

To expect them to help us due to self-inflicted acts of stupidity which have only served to exacerbate problems within our faltering economy (with the domestic automakers among the biggest vctims) makes no sense.

The GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House for several years and took no action either.

karinbelle
05-31-2008, 08:57 PM
The GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House for several years and took no action either.

True, True!

Eight years of GOP is where we are now.

disney_family_1247
05-31-2008, 09:40 PM
Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

My dad is a Petroleum Engineer for the US government, and I know for a fact that we are drilling for oil in this country. I would rather pay more for gas today than have more of our environment destroyed so that we can drill for more oil...I agree that journalists sensationalize everything; who needs half a dozen 24 hour news channels anyway?

MattM
06-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Due to the constant threats of lawsuits, etc from the fringe environmental groups, the GOP wasnt able to do anything.

If you truly think the problems we are experiencing now are soley due to 8 years of the GOP, then you are astonishingly misinformed. If thats what you believe, then why has the price/gallon of oil increased from around $58/barrel in January when the Democrats took over to near $128 today?

I think thats a slight case of Bush-Derangement. This has been in the making for the past 40 years.

Mo-Yo
06-02-2008, 05:01 PM
I think thats a slight case of Bush-Derangement.

You can say that again!!!

But I think our definitions of the syndrome are vastly different.:hippie:

bdcp
06-02-2008, 05:12 PM
My dad is a Petroleum Engineer for the US government, and I know for a fact that we are drilling for oil in this country. I would rather pay more for gas today than have more of our environment destroyed so that we can drill for more oil...I agree that journalists sensationalize everything; who needs half a dozen 24 hour news channels anyway?

You're partially right about drilling. We are drilling using existing wells that have been in place for decades. We are not , unfortunately, drilling in new locations where there has been oil discovered in the last couple of decades. There is an awful lot of untapped oil, some experts say more than we have already have access to. We do not "destroy" the environment by drilling for oil. That is a falacy put forth by those that don't want more drilling, i.e., mainly over the top environmentalists who really have no clue what they are talking about. Give me an example of where the environment has been "destroyed" by drilling. Please, I get tired of hearing about how we're destroying the environment by drilling for oil, when we're not. I'm not talking about spills that have happened, I'm talking about actual drilling locations. And I have posted this before, more oil leaks naturally from the bottom of the ocean than has ever been spilt in the history of man.

IluvKingLouis
06-02-2008, 06:13 PM
Due to the constant threats of lawsuits, etc from the fringe environmental groups, the GOP wasnt able to do anything.

If you truly think the problems we are experiencing now are soley due to 8 years of the GOP, then you are astonishingly misinformed. If thats what you believe, then why has the price/gallon of oil increased from around $58/barrel in January when the Democrats took over to near $128 today?

I think thats a slight case of Bush-Derangement. This has been in the making for the past 40 years.

Ummm, GOP pretty much controls the Supreme Court, and fringe environmental groups are not sitting on a pile of cash, so this argument makes no sense. :confused3

Yes, I do think gas prices being where they are, is a result of this administrations energy policy. I believe they had hoped to both profit and provide our country with cheap gas when they invaded Iraq. However once Iraq's pipelines where sabotaged, cheap gas was no longer part of our economic policy. But the oil companies were still able to benefit from the sharp rise in the price of oil, so all was good.

It would be interesting if Cheney's secret energy policy was made available to the public.

Mo-Yo
06-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Give me an example of where the environment has been "destroyed" by drilling.

Here are some examples of how the environment is being damaged, (though not YET destroyed) and the reasons why we would not benefit economically from the drilling in ANWR:

Oil Drilling Is Harming Arctic Ecosystems
March 27, 2003 (Adapted by Victoria Schlesinger and Kathleen M. Wong, California Academy of Sciences) - Oil exploration has permanently
harmed the ecosystems of the Arctic, according to a new study. A blue-ribbon panel assembled by the National Academy of Sciences has shown that 30 years of roadbuilding, noise, and oil exploration has affected the behavior of animals, harmed vegetation, and caused erosion.

www.arcticrefugeaction.org/newsroom/myths-vs-facts.pdf

MermaidsMom
06-02-2008, 06:46 PM
If you truly think the problems we are experiencing now are soley due to 8 years of the GOP, then you are astonishingly misinformed. If thats what you believe, then why has the price/gallon of oil increased from around $58/barrel in January when the Democrats took over to near $128 today?

This point and this point alone needs to be broadcast 24 hours a day on all of the networks. This price increase did not happen by chance. With the rest of the world seeing the direction of our Presidential campaign, get ready to be fleeced on a lot of things in the future. They smell weakness because it's clear there is no will to defend ourselves if the GOP isn't there anymore. Sure they aren't perfect, but the alternative will be disaster.

loco4dis
06-02-2008, 07:03 PM
This point and this point alone needs to be broadcast 24 hours a day on all of the networks. This price increase did not happen by chance. With the rest of the world seeing the direction of our Presidential campaign, get ready to be fleeced on a lot of things in the future. They smell weakness because it's clear there is no will to defend ourselves if the GOP isn't there anymore. Sure they aren't perfect, but the alternative will be disaster.

Amen, sista!

crisi
06-02-2008, 07:05 PM
You guys really think our government has that much control over the price of oil? One of the huge issues is that the dollar is worth much less than in was, due to our spending ways (both Democrats and Republicans have been spend happy - just on different things). When the dollar is worth less, the cost of things from overseas goes up.

las3888
06-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Due to the constant threats of lawsuits, etc from the fringe environmental groups, the GOP wasnt able to do anything.

If you truly think the problems we are experiencing now are soley due to 8 years of the GOP, then you are astonishingly misinformed. If thats what you believe, then why has the price/gallon of oil increased from around $58/barrel in January when the Democrats took over to near $128 today?

I think thats a slight case of Bush-Derangement. This has been in the making for the past 40 years.


Again, great post...we think alike...

Mo-Yo
06-02-2008, 07:49 PM
This point and this point alone needs to be broadcast 24 hours a day on all of the networks. This price increase did not happen by chance. With the rest of the world seeing the direction of our Presidential campaign, get ready to be fleeced on a lot of things in the future. They smell weakness because it's clear there is no will to defend ourselves if the GOP isn't there anymore.

Where in the world would you get "information" like this? :confused3

MattM
06-03-2008, 08:40 AM
.

MattM
06-03-2008, 08:42 AM
Ummm, GOP pretty much controls the Supreme Court, and fringe environmental groups are not sitting on a pile of cash, so this argument makes no sense. :confused3

Yes, I do think gas prices being where they are, is a result of this administrations energy policy. I believe they had hoped to both profit and provide our country with cheap gas when they invaded Iraq. However once Iraq's pipelines where sabotaged, cheap gas was no longer part of our economic policy. But the oil companies were still able to benefit from the sharp rise in the price of oil, so all was good.

It would be interesting if Cheney's secret energy policy was made available to the public.

Cases like that rarely will get to the Supreme Court, due to the lack of constitutional issues. They are handled more in district and appeals courts. So really, that argument doesnt make any sense either.

And as far as the rest of your post, I think you're right. It was all part of Bush's plan to destroy the world...maybe even the Universe, along with Cheney's secret energy plan.

I didnt get any rain at my house last night, but my parents did. Its all Bush's fault!

Bush-Derangement :sick:

Kay1
06-03-2008, 09:34 AM
Where in the world would you get "information" like this? :confused3

Amazing, isn't it? :rotfl:

Kathi OD
06-03-2008, 09:51 AM
Not trying to interject politics in here, but…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win. Moreover, the vast majority of "reporters" know as much about economics as they do about astrophysics. Consumer prices are rising because the cost of oil is rising, due to a huge increase in demand, mostly from China. Since everything we buy is trucked around the country, those fuel costs increase the costs of goods. Our political class has chosen not to drill for oil in this country, where we have vast reserves, making us dependent on foreign oil.

Many of us are getting our "news" about the economy based on our own personal experiences of lay offs and higher prices wreaking havoc with our budgets. We don't need a biased media to tell us what we already know.

Kathi OD
06-03-2008, 09:53 AM
You guys really think our government has that much control over the price of oil? One of the huge issues is that the dollar is worth much less than in was, due to our spending ways (both Democrats and Republicans have been spend happy - just on different things). When the dollar is worth less, the cost of things from overseas goes up.

add to that the craziness in the oil speculation markets and you have a recipe for disater.

RACHELSMOM1
06-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Here are some examples of how the environment is being damaged, (though not YET destroyed) and the reasons why we would not benefit economically from the drilling in ANWR:

Oil Drilling Is Harming Arctic Ecosystems
March 27, 2003 (Adapted by Victoria Schlesinger and Kathleen M. Wong, California Academy of Sciences) - Oil exploration has permanently
harmed the ecosystems of the Arctic, according to a new study. A blue-ribbon panel assembled by the National Academy of Sciences has shown that 30 years of roadbuilding, noise, and oil exploration has affected the behavior of animals, harmed vegetation, and caused erosion.

www.arcticrefugeaction.org/newsroom/myths-vs-facts.pdf

:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl:
Some people will believe anything. Anyway, The question was concerning "oil drilling" and not "oil exploration" and why do you think any "blue ribbon panel" by any academy is gospel truth? They are going to report only what they want the rest of the world to know, whether it is based in fact or not.

Mo-Yo
06-03-2008, 11:19 AM
:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl:
Some people will believe anything...They are going to report only what they want the rest of the world to know, whether it is based in fact or not.

I agree completely. They don't offer any proof to support their beliefs, and they discount supportable evidence as fabricated.

It's really a bizarre situation, isn't it?

Since I'm not a scientist, I'll trust scientists like those at the National Academies of Science and Engineering (aka "the Blue Ribbon panel"...sorry I didn't specify) to help inform my opinion.

And just curious...can we drill without exploring? What is the practical difference? I am not an expert in the field of oil and don't pretend to be, so it would be great if someone who actually does know the relationship could explain it.

DisFlan
06-03-2008, 11:40 AM
Well, oil is down to $125 today, so let's hope the "bubble" is bursting. It'll likely never be $58 again, but there's a chance it won't be $150 or $200, either. At least not in the near future. $125 might keep a few airlines out of bankruptcy for a while longer, too.

DisFlan

bluehen
06-03-2008, 11:57 AM
This point and this point alone needs to be broadcast 24 hours a day on all of the networks. This price increase did not happen by chance. With the rest of the world seeing the direction of our Presidential campaign, get ready to be fleeced on a lot of things in the future. They smell weakness because it's clear there is no will to defend ourselves if the GOP isn't there anymore. Sure they aren't perfect, but the alternative will be disaster.


The same old Republican scare tactics. sheesh

Kathi OD
06-03-2008, 01:02 PM
:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl:
Some people will believe anything. Anyway, The question was concerning "oil drilling" and not "oil exploration" and why do you think any "blue ribbon panel" by any academy is gospel truth? They are going to report only what they want the rest of the world to know, whether it is based in fact or not.

Using your logic, that actually works both ways. Who is to determine which group of experts is better than another? Each side will present only what they want to get out.

Nothing more than PROPAGANDA....both sides of an argument use it equally in an effort to sway those who really don't have any real way of knowing.;)

Mo-Yo
06-03-2008, 01:18 PM
Kathy OD, I agree.

But I think its still important that we try to get past the misinformation and try to make wise choices...even though it sometimes seems futile.

What I find disturbing is that lack of quality conversations on the issues that will most certainly impact our future. Attacking each other's views and failing to bring substantive arguments to the table only exacerbates the problem.

alstroemeria
06-03-2008, 01:39 PM
There was this saying: God, give me the strength to change what I can and to accept what I cannot change. Well, most of it is politics and media I'd say.

Kathi OD
06-03-2008, 05:30 PM
Kathy OD, I agree.

But I think its still important that we try to get past the misinformation and try to make wise choices...even though it sometimes seems futile.

What I find disturbing is that lack of quality conversations on the issues that will most certainly impact our future. Attacking each other's views and failing to bring substantive arguments to the table only exacerbates the problem.

:thumbsup2

MrMarv
06-07-2008, 08:40 PM
The media has definitely 'gone negative' and is definitely as cynical as can be.

But comparing current economic conditions to the Great Depression is insane and reeks of sensationalism.

kellia
06-07-2008, 08:46 PM
We live in Michigan. We have way too many family and friends laid off with no job prospects (college educated, not just factory workers) and too many foreclosures on our street to not be worried. :worried: Dh was laid off in Dec. from a very "secure" job (thankfully found another in under a month). We both drive over 50 miles one way to get to work just so we can have a job (which is not good with gas over $4/gallon). We are "ok" now, but it is very scary and sad around here.

kadesha
06-07-2008, 08:59 PM
The economy is affecting us terribly! My husband drives hundreds of miles a day for his job, and he doesn't get paid back for the gas. I drive 60 miles (total) to a low-paying job. I get sick to my stomach everytime my gas tank gets low. We are giving up anything extra to be able to take our anniversary trip. No eating out, etc. Any money we aren't spending on basic bills is being put up for Disney, and it's still going to be so difficult to save enough by our deadline. (We're staying at a value resort with base tickets) If the economy keeps going in this direction, I don't know how we'll even survive in a year or two!

Liberty Belle
06-07-2008, 09:11 PM
I'm not worried, but I do feel alot of people overextended themsleves without considering the later economic consequences of their actions. Lots of people charge up stuff on their cc's that they don't really "need" [honestly, we don't "need" cell phones, iPods, Coach bags, and LCD HD TVs, but the lower and middle classes are clamoring for these "luxury" items and more or less deeming them necessities]. People bought houses imagining a quick flip and tens of thousands in profit, rather than looking for a place to live in for the next 10 - 20 years. Women got breast augmentation and men got pec implants rather than save the money in an emergency fund. People will still pay $4 a day for a damn latte at Starbucks, $5 for a pack of smokes, and $12 for a 6-pack of beer then cry that they're poor. No one wants to take any personal responsibility for anything. Too bad, so sad, but times are not nearly as tough as some of these ridiculous sob stories would make you believe.

Woah, I guess we hang in different crowds.

mpls_mm
06-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Woah, I guess we hang in different crowds.

I know, I hadn't realized pec implants were as common as lattes and $12 6-packs. :rotfl2:

Purrrrfecta
06-08-2008, 05:20 AM
Using your logic, that actually works both ways. Who is to determine which group of experts is better than another? Each side will present only what they want to get out.

Nothing more than PROPAGANDA....both sides of an argument use it equally in an effort to sway those who really don't have any real way of knowing.;)

Yes, I say this works both ways as well.
The media who is pro DNC will say we are headed for a recession.

The GOP says we are paying more because China is using more oil.

I want proof to back it up. I want figures. I want to see how this oil money is being spent.

Don't just throw something out there and expect for me to believe it because I have faith in the person saying it.

As far as I am concerned. The oil company used Katrina as a reason to raise prices the way they did, and they never looked back.

MermaidsMom
06-08-2008, 07:29 AM
The same old Republican scare tactics. sheesh

I agree completely. They don't offer any proof to support their beliefs, and they discount supportable evidence as fabricated.

It's really a bizarre situation, isn't it?

.

Geez, while MermaidsMom was away.....

What do Republican scare tactics have to do with the FACT that the price of a barrel of oil has more than DOUBLED since Democrats took over the House and Senate in 2006? Is it a scare tactic to say oil prices are being manipulated while we sit on top of all the oil we would ever need? Since Democrats have blamed everything on Bush I guess that turn around is fair play. And c'mon, speaking of tactics, Democrats using their own scare tactics managed to turn 1/2 of their OWN party into racists recently. No Republicans needed.

The bizarre situation I find here is of people giving off the attitude "I have some leftist literature, believe it". Unfortunately due to years of leftist lies about extinction of certain animals/insects that weren't really extinct (their science was used) so they could get federal funding. Or the complete hysteria concerning climate change. Credibility is lost when science is used to lie. Excuse me for not rushing to read literature suggested by someone who is clearly hostile/sarcastic to my musings.

MrMarv
06-08-2008, 09:26 AM
Those are the same Democrats (starting with Nancy Pelosi, who knows nothing about international protocol!!!) who won't let anybody drill off either coast, or widen the drilling zone in the Gulf of Mexico, and then have the audacity to go to Saudi Arabia and beg them to drill more, or face a lawsuit!!!!

Audacity indeed!!!

DisFlan
06-08-2008, 11:59 AM
We're heading into the main show for the presidential election. We'll be hearing all kinds of things - mostly what they think we want to hear. I'm really hoping that this time the media holds some feet to the fire for real answers. Or at least makes a good try. I think we can take anything we hear from now until November with a huge lump of salt.

And I agree that real facts and figures are hard to come by. We're all going to have to dig deeper and not ignore this election. Write to or email your politicians, both state and federal, and let them KNOW how you feel and what you need. You'd be surprised how effective this can be. They pay attention when their votes are on the line.

DisFlan

fkj2
06-08-2008, 12:24 PM
The media has definitely 'gone negative' and is definitely as cynical as can be.

But comparing current economic conditions to the Great Depression is insane and reeks of sensationalism.

While some may dislike the news they hear at 6 P.M. every day, it is important to remember that we enjoy among the most open medium for news distribution worldwide. The media can say whatever they choose and it's our job to sort out and sift through what's reported to find the truth. And they're not lying about flooding in the Midwest, drought in Australia, fires in California, quakes in China, cyclones in Myanmar, distress in the banking system, and on and on.

Certainly statistics can be manipulated, but when your friends and neighbors tell you their house is in foreclosure, or they don't have enough to eat, or their child can't get a student loan for college, those are irrefutable facts to the individual hearing the story.

Nobody is hoping this turns into another "Great Depression," but history demonstrates recurring patterns of behavior. The "Roaring Twenties" were so named because everyone was benefitting from the good times and the levitating stock market--just before everything tanked. I am the child of children raised during the Depression: I remember their stories all too well.

Although no one can say with certainty how the economic situation will evolve, it seems reasonable to evaluate the good news AND the bad before pronouncing sensationalistic reporting.

As for which political party has the best program to deal with problems, in the 35 years since the "first" energy crisis, neither seems to have the wherewithall to do anything significant. I want to vote for the best, most qualified person for the job and I don't care what race or gender he/she is. Frankly, I'm a bit put off by some women saying they wouldn't support Barrack Obama because it was "Hilliary's time;" a woman's time to be president. Says WHO? JUST because she's a woman? What an insult to women of intelligence in this country! Would you say that African-Americans ONLY voted for Barrack Obama because of his race?

But we keep voting (or around 35% of us do, give or take a few percentage points.) And many of it do it based on "soundbites"; Politician A says he's for health care, jobs, national security, protecting Medicare and Social Security, education, etc. Have you really heard anyone campaign against those things? What we don't hear is how everything gets paid for. But it sounds good.

The other perspective is global: The United States is NOT the only country experiencing economic problems and as such, our economy will not be insulated from problems that exist in other countries.

We have a tendency to look closely at our own personal situation and experience. Gasoline prices not affecting you yet? Great. Congratulations. You're in good shape. Not everyone is, though. It takes time to trickle down. Check back on this thread in 4 months or so and let us know if your circumstances have changed.

I talked to a neighbor yesterday who works for a company that sells fertilizer, seed, etc. to farmers. We spoke of the flooding out in Missouri (the one that will help wipe out the spring planting), and of how many farmers will need to re-plant corn. (Oh, and fertilizers up to $630 a ton. Diesel's between $4.65-$4.85 a gallon. Tractors that farmers use primarily run on diesel. Do not be concerned that you will be further affected by higher food prices in a few months.) I responded farmers would probably switch to planting soybeans. She said, no, that the soy bean seed is only yielding about 70% germination and there isn't really any seed available. No seed; no soybean crop, or certainly a diminished yield from what was planted. Limited soybean crop; higher prices for soy products. There's a trend here...

global_mom
06-08-2008, 02:04 PM
There was this saying: God, give me the strength to change what I can and to accept what I cannot change. Well, most of it is politics and media I'd say.


There is another part to that phrase....."and the strength to know the difference". That part is quite crucial.

Mo-Yo
06-08-2008, 03:34 PM
Credibility is lost when science is used to lie. Excuse me for not rushing to read literature suggested by someone who is clearly hostile/sarcastic to my musings.

I think the scare tactics come into play when we use "musings" to support our beliefs instead of facts. Just because we believe something doesn't make it a fact.

I am curious, Mermaid Mom, where you got the information to support your contention that our Presidential election and our "weakness" (As defined by you) are the root of our high oil prices. I asked that question, but you neglected to
answer it. Everyone has a theory on everything, but if we are going to have a discussion, it helps to working from some provable facts.

Also, to blame the Democratic congress, which so far has rarely had enough majority to overide a veto on our current energy policy is illogical. I agree with teh OP who said however that both parties have failed us terribly since the 70's oil crisis by failing to adopt policies that support the development of renewable energy.

Mo-Yo
06-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Geez, while MermaidsMom was away.....
What do Republican scare tactics have to do with the FACT that the price of a barrel of oil has more than DOUBLED since Democrats took over the House and Senate in 2006?

Don't forget, it is also a fact that oil jumped from $30 a barrel when Bush took office in 2000 to $60 in 2005 with a brief jump to $75 in August 2006 before returning to $60 in 2007. Was the Republican controlled congress responsible for that? Seems like a trend....

MermaidsMom
06-08-2008, 05:41 PM
I think the scare tactics come into play when we use "musings" to support our beliefs instead of facts. Just because we believe something doesn't make it a fact.
I am curious, Mermaid Mom, where you got the information to support your contention that our Presidential election and our "weakness" (As defined by you) are the root of our high oil prices. I asked that question, but you neglected to
answer it. Everyone has a theory on everything, but if we are going to have a discussion, it helps to working from some provable facts.

Also, to blame the Democratic congress, which so far has rarely had enough majority to overide a veto on our current energy policy is illogical. I agree with teh OP who said however that both parties have failed us terribly since the 70's oil crisis by failing to adopt policies that support the development of renewable energy.

This point and this point alone needs to be broadcast 24 hours a day on all of the networks. This price increase did not happen by chance. With the rest of the world seeing the direction of our Presidential campaign, get ready to be fleeced on a lot of things in the future. They smell weakness because it's clear there is no will to defend ourselves if the GOP isn't there anymore. Sure they aren't perfect, but the alternative will be disaster.


If you read my post concerning the Democratic Congress closely, you will see I made the point of relating it to how the left has blamed everything on Bush all these years (turn about fair play?). It is equally absurd to blame everything on a Democratic Congress. Whether Democrat or Republican neither party is responsible for our economy. We need to move beyond this idea that government is the source of our bounty. The Office of President is very ceremonial and he or she cannot solve or be held responsible for our problems. They simply set a tone for the country, have the bully pulpit and veto power.

I am confused about your "facts" remark. I explained in an earlier post why I am not interested in your "facts", once again, are you not reading the entire post? If you need a pie chart or a scientist to tell you that powerful nations are in competition with each other and when one smells weakness they exploit it, then I cannot comment. I suggest- my opinion- my thoughts on the matter- my musings, are everything I stated above. Your mocking tone will not change that.

Your best point is, "Just because you believe something doesn't make it a fact", those are words to live by, Mo Yo, they apply both ways.

las3888
06-08-2008, 05:54 PM
If you read my post concerning the Democratic Congress closely, you will see I made the point of relating it to how the left has blamed everything on Bush all these years (turn about fair play?). It is equally absurd to blame everything on a Democratic Congress. Whether Democrat or Republican neither party is responsible for our economy. We need to move beyond this idea that government is the source of our bounty. The Office of President is very ceremonial and he or she cannot solve or be held responsible for our problems. They simply set a tone for the country, have the bully pulpit and veto power.

I am confused about your "facts" remark. I explained in an earlier post why I am not interested in your "facts", once again, are you not reading the entire post? If you need a pie chart or a scientist to tell you that powerful nations are in competition with each other and when one smells weakness they exploit it, then I cannot comment. I suggest- my opinion- my thoughts on the matter- my musings, are everything I stated above. Your mocking tone will not change that.

Your best point is, "Just because you believe something doesn't make it a fact", those are words to live by, Mo Yo, they apply both ways.

I think you make a lot of sense...thanks for your post!

bdcp
06-08-2008, 07:03 PM
The current oil prices are not set by our congress or President. They are market driven and it is a world market. Between the foreign oil market and futures traders as well as WORLDWIDE consumption, we are where we are. What we need is independence from the world oil market which we will never have unless we can drill and refine our own oil and perfect other methods or like the French, take some pressure off by using nuclear power which has proven to be very, very safe. A little common sense and logic goes a long way and I wish people would use it instead of knee jerk emotion.

Mo-Yo
06-09-2008, 04:44 AM
The current oil prices are not set by our congress or President. They are market driven and it is a world market. Between the foreign oil market and futures traders as well as WORLDWIDE consumption, we are where we are. What we need is independence from the world oil market which we will never have unless we can drill and refine our own oil and perfect other methods or like the French, take some pressure off by using nuclear power which has proven to be very, very safe. A little common sense and logic goes a long way and I wish people would use it instead of knee jerk emotion.

Well said.

MrMarv
06-09-2008, 10:29 AM
It's safe to say that the 'upcoming' crisis is here, and is substantially worse in some parts of the country than others.

Detroit's automakers have to reinvent themselves, and the sooner the better.

snowbunny
06-09-2008, 10:58 AM
…remember that we're getting our "news" about the economy from a national media of whom the vast majority are actively campaigning for a certain presidential candidate. Their objective is to paint an entirely bleak picture to pave the way for their candidate to win.

Chris Matthews 9/10/2006: "Every time I look at a poll--and I expect McCain to win every one of these polls. The press loves McCain. We're his base."

So yes I agree, the media pundits are totally fluffing up McCain same as they did GWB (all that straight talkin mavericky stuff, wow!) Hard to figure out, however, is how $4/gallon gas, $5 trillion flushed down the hole in Iraq, and impending bank failures actually help the candidate running for Bush's third term? :confused3

Also, for those that do not understand the workings of Congress, its hands are tied as the Democrats do not have a veto-proof majority. Very little has and will get done to undo the damage until there is a change in the executive branch.

RACHELSMOM1
06-09-2008, 11:18 AM
Chris Matthews 9/10/2006: "Every time I look at a poll--and I expect McCain to win every one of these polls. The press loves McCain. We're his base."

So yes I agree, the media pundits are totally fluffing up McCain same as they did GWB (all that straight talkin mavericky stuff, wow!) Hard to figure out, however, is how $4/gallon gas, $5 trillion flushed down the hole in Iraq, and impending bank failures actually help the candidate running for Bush's third term? :confused3

Also, for those that do not understand the workings of Congress, its hands are tied as the Democrats do not have a veto-proof majority. Very little has and will get done to undo the damage until there is a change in the executive branch.

Well, where have you been listening to the news. The media have chosen Barak Hussein Obama to be their guy!!

Kay1
06-09-2008, 11:31 AM
Well, where have you been listening to the news. The media have chosen Barak Hussein Obama to be their guy!!

I just don't agree with you at all. If that were so, why did they play footage of his pastor almost nonstop? Most of the media are controlled by their corporate owners, though Fox is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and Alwaleed bin Talal, a Saudi Prince. Alwaleed openly brags about his influence over what's presented to us via Fox. I think its best to dig for information from multiple sources.

GothTink
06-09-2008, 11:51 AM
Life goes in cycles - economy gets better, economy gets worse...prices go up, prices go down...and life goes on. :cool2:

That's pretty much how I feel about it. Not much we can do but muddle through. :confused3

Mo-Yo
06-09-2008, 02:36 PM
Fox is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and Alwaleed bin Talal, a Saudi Prince. Alwaleed openly brags about his influence over what's presented to us via Fox. I think its best to dig for information from multiple sources.

So let me get this straight. There is no left wing conspiracy?

And I was about to discount all that I have read from economists, geologists, environmentalists, biologists, engineers and other scientists and other widely- respected professionals. I was going to stop trying to understand the issues and take the word of Rush and O'Reilly. I was almost relieved at no longer needing to support my beliefs with any sort of logic or proof.

After all, facts aren't facts when it is easier to stick your head in the sand and blame the media and anyone with different views than yours.

Thanks for clearing that up.:)

las3888
06-09-2008, 02:54 PM
Well, where have you been listening to the news. The media have chosen Barak Hussein Obama to be their guy!!


Agreed...you no longer hear the press fawning over McCain like they used to. They just LOVED it when he would buck the Republicans and side with the Democrats. In the press's eyes, that's what made him a 'maverick.' Now that there is a Democratic nominee, the press doesn't seem to appreciate McCain's 'maverick-ness'...all we hear about is how 'old' he is...

My 2 cents...

MermaidsMom
06-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Chris Matthews 9/10/2006: "Every time I look at a poll--and I expect McCain to win every one of these polls. The press loves McCain. We're his base."

2006 was a long time ago in the political world. Matthews probably meant it at the time he said it because McCain was a constant thorn in Bush's side, and the side of most all republicans. They never knew what he would say and they couldn't count on him to vote how they wanted or follow the party line. This is why the republicans are having such a hard time accepting him. Matthews and friends loved any republican that was liberal and they especially loved McCain.

Matthews couldn't imagine then that in 2008 there would be Obama giving him a "thrill up his leg" (his words as reported in the HuffingtonPost.com on February 13, 2008). HuffingtonPost.com also reported he has cried at Obama speeches and compared Obama to Jesus.

Now the media's problem will be to link McCain to conseratives after all these years of the press corp using his liberalism to their advantage. The lame "Bush's third term" can't work when everyone knows Bush and McCain don't get along. Maybe the young will buy it but they won't vote. It's a waste of time to shout slogans when there a so many problems in this country.

I think most people basically want the same things, we have different ideas about how to get them. To divide and waste years fighting about who is right accomplishes nothing. Isn't that what Obama is saying? I think McCain said it somewhere along the line too.

3happydancers
06-09-2008, 04:30 PM
Great point! Fixed incomes usually get an increase each year however small. Our income hasn't changed in 4 years. Actually it's decreased due to larger co-pays and deductibles for insurances.

I hear you!!! We are in the same boat. No increases in several years and it looks as though this year is no exception. Yet, my electric has gone up over $50.00 a month, heating fuel is up to about 4.39 gal, gas on L.I. is approx 4.25 gal and our grocery bill has increased quite a bit as well. Oh, and should I mention that over the last 5 years our property/school taxes have increased by approx 2000.00 a year!!!! And yes, our co-pays and deductibles for insurance has also increased. You bet we are feeling the pinch but some how we are managing. The thing is that we are getting to the point that we simply can't stretch the dollar any further. We already live simply, no extra cable channels, no car loans, no going out to dinner or movies. Recently, we have decided to put a halt to accepting party invitations. :sad1: For the month of June alone we received 7 for various graduations & surprise birthdays. All at least an hours drive in each direction meaning more gas usage which is simply not in the budget not to mention the gift itself. :sad2:

The one thing that keeps me sane is knowing that we paid cash for our upcoming trip that had been planned last year. :yay: :yay: :yay:

brockscandy
06-09-2008, 09:57 PM
Yes, I say this works both ways as well.
The media who is pro DNC will say we are headed for a recession.

The GOP says we are paying more because China is using more oil.

I want proof to back it up. I want figures. I want to see how this oil money is being spent.

Don't just throw something out there and expect for me to believe it because I have faith in the person saying it.

As far as I am concerned. The oil company used Katrina as a reason to raise prices the way they did, and they never looked back.


Well, I certainly can't prove it to you, but my husband works for one of those dreaded oil companies (and we aren't getting rich by the way) and he can't buy all the supplies he needs because it is all going to China - is distributors tell him that. My state representative also went to China because he is very knowledgable in the energy area and was told by the Chinese government they are buying everything they can get their hands on. They are very upfront about it. He said they are trying to convince Canada to sell them oil instead of selling it to us.

Anjelica
06-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Countries such as China and India are having huge increases in gas consumption. Those governments subsidize the oil/gas and therefore demand has skyrocketed. Higher demand leads to higher prices.

Kay1
06-10-2008, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Chris Matthews 9/10/2006: "Every time I look at a poll--and I expect McCain to win every one of these polls. The press loves McCain. We're his base."


I think most people basically want the same things, we have different ideas about how to get them. To divide and waste years fighting about who is right accomplishes nothing. Isn't that what Obama is saying? I think McCain said it somewhere along the line too.

Maybe most people want the same things but we people are often at cross purposes with the corporations who exist to make a profit for shareholders. Sometimes that means slashing jobs and seeking near slave labor, either locally or globally. Look, I don't have a dog in this presidential race. The candidate I chose never really had a chance, but I get the feeling you prefer McCain.

I have no strong feelings about him one way or the other but I was very troubled by his assertation that Americans will not work on farms if paid $50 per hour. Here in Florida I can't tell you how many unemployed construction workers would line up to pick vegetables for half that amount.

Anyhow, we've suffered a small blow in our family. Our health insurance premiums just rose by $48 per month and our car insurance rose by $130 when we added our teenage son. Yikes! :faint: