Why does everyone value their points so little?

[toesmom]

I understand that I should get the great deal when I laid out the cash to buy the points, but why does everyone virtually give away their points when they rent them or transfer them?

I understand if you have 1 month left and they will expire and can't be banked, but why not offer them for rent for a reasonable amount? $10 is very cheap per point.

If you are really stuck, then that makes sense.

But if you buy the points at such high cost, why are you people all passing your great deal onto strangers?

I mean realistically, rentals can be priced at $14-15 per point... and still a bargain compared to Disney cost for the room.

I just don't understand why people don't place more value on their points. If you take a risk in buying the points, why are you all passing the great savings onto strangers, including the whole dining plan option which was really only meant to keep DVC owners happy?

If everyone really valued their points (except for those in time-sensitive circumstances), they should be renting for closer to $15 per point.

And if someone is upset by my post, I'll assume it is a potential renter. Because any DVC owners should be aware of the high buy-in cost to own these points. I just don't get why people are giving such great discounts to strangers? Charge people what the points are really worth and potential renters will pay it if they want to.

$10 is just crazy IMO

[a Really Bad Egg]

Maybe market forces dictate the value...supply and demand.

;)

[toesmom]

Maybe market forces dictate the value...supply and demand.

;)

I think the demand is pretty high based on the rent/trade board postings.

The price is dictated by the DVC owners renting out their points. And still a much better price than through Disney. Why not meet somewhere in the middle. If Disney's rental rate is equivalent to $25 per point, then meet at $14 or 15.

Demand is obviously high because people love a bargain. Should be priced properly.

If you rent out 120 points for example, an additional $3 per point cost is $360. It really makes a difference and puts a good value on the points.

Again, only when owners are not under time-sensitive circumstances does this makes sense. You can always find someone to take the points for $10.

[salmoneous]

I think the demand is pretty high based on the rent/trade board postings. Demdand is high at $10/point. Not so high at $15.

Keep in mind that DVC owners probably value their time at least as much as they value their points. A smooth and easy rental is worth a lot to people.

[bwvBound]

I do rent mine fairly low - but only to friends and family. Keep in mind that the renter would receive daily housekeeping if they booked their stay direct through Disney at the higher rates.

[toesmom]

Demdand is high at $10/point. Not so high at $15.

Keep in mind that DVC owners probably value their time at least as much as they value their points. A smooth and easy rental is worth a lot to people.


Demand would still be high even at $15 if that's what DVC owners were asking. Comparing to Disney's cost, it would still be a huge savings. Of course demand is very high when points are offered at only $10. Actually, not that many DVC owners are offering at $10, it appears a little bit higher - finally some sense.

Possibly those renting out their points at $10 are the ones who are stuck and need to get them rented quickly?

[a Really Bad Egg]

The supply (those renting points) is probably of sufficient volume that the demand (those renting points) doesn't have to bid up the price.

Just because I say I want $15 per point does not mean I will get it if there are others (suppliers) who want the sale. They will simply advertise their points for less, bidding down the price.

Now, if I was the only one (supplier) renting points, and there were 10 people wanting them (demand), perhaps my price is more attractive?

[Chuck S]

If you wish to rent your points at $15 per point, you are free to do so, if others are happy with renting their points for $5 or $10 they are also free to do so.

I don't rent my points, but if I did, the price I'd rent them for is entirely my business and no one else's'. Those of us that are long term owners could still make out fine renting at a price lower than those who purchased more recently. And no matter what, there would likely always be someone willing to rent for less...it is simply the way it works.

The price has to be agreeable to both parties in the transaction, and in a transaction where one party (the owners) always has full control of the reservation, it puts the renters somewhat at risk. Of course, the owner is also at risk for damages or unpaid balances. Renting is simply a matter of trust for both parties. Also, given that daily housekeeping, which they would receive with a cash reservation, is $30 per day extra for a studio, that will turn some potential renters off from the whole idea. Having to go through the owner, without the ability to talk to Member Services is also a deal breaker for many.

[jodifla]

Demand would still be high even at $15 if that's what DVC owners were asking. Comparing to Disney's cost, it would still be a huge savings. Of course demand is very high when points are offered at only $10. Actually, not that many DVC owners are offering at $10, it appears a little bit higher - finally some sense.

Possibly those renting out their points at $10 are the ones who are stuck and need to get them rented quickly?

This comes up often. Maybe $10 seems low, but the thing is, renters need to feel they are getting a deal to take the incredible risk that you take when renting points.

For example, if you rent from Disney, you can cancel up to what...a few days before you go? Once you rent from a DVCer, it's likely a done deal with little room for cancellation. You can't be totally sure you even HAVE a reservation if you rent privately. The private DVCer holds most of the cards.

That's an incredible disincentive for a lot of people.

[Mtnman44]

Bingo! :thumbsup2.

This comes up often. Maybe $10 seems low, but the thing is, renters need to feel they are getting a deal to take the incredible risk that you take when renting points.

For example, if you rent from Disney, you can cancel up to what...a few days before you go? Once you rent from a DVCer, it's likely a done deal with little room for cancellation. You can't be totally sure you even HAVE a reservation if you rent privately. The private DVCer holds most of the cards.

That's an incredible disincentive for a lot of people.

[Nigel8600]

Hmm, maybe there should be some way of rating DVC owners like the e-bay system does when someone rents points out here.

We did just recently end up renting 55 points from our stay at SSV for 10.00 per point coming up in October for our very first time ever in Florida (been to DW at least 5 times because being from Western Canada it's easier getting there) But what was amazing is that all the points the member had that we rented from were all rented out in less than 24 hrs from their original post. There were a TON of people still asking for points after they were all gone.

:idea: It really made us look at this DVC like a potential investment. So much in fact that we took the plunge and have an offer in ROFR right now for 160 points at AKV so we can rent out at no less than $15 per point with first points not expiring until April 09 giving people a chance to rent 11 months out with a savannah view making our points worth $15 maybe?

[toesmom]

Hmm, maybe there should be some way of rating DVC owners like the e-bay system does when someone rents points out here.

We did just recently end up renting 55 points from our stay at SSV for 10.00 per point coming up in October for our very first time ever in Florida (been to DW at least 5 times because being from Western Canada it's easier getting there) But what was amazing is that all the points the member had that we rented from were all rented out in less than 24 hrs from their original post. There were a TON of people still asking for points after they were all gone.

:idea: It really made us look at this DVC like a potential investment. So much in fact that we took the plunge and have an offer in ROFR right now for 160 points at AKV so we can rent out at no less than $15 per point with first points not expiring until April 09 giving people a chance to rent 11 months out with a savannah view making our points worth $15 maybe?


Congratulations, and that is smart thinking.

[Chuck S]

Just remember that a lot of non-DVC owners looking to rent, do not make their travel plans that far out. Most are used to booking cash reservations a few months out, so your 11 month booking window at AKV may have little "added value" to renters. Most will be booking in a time frame where "points are points." And Savannah Views at a large resort like AKV Kidani will likely be available in the 7 month window. The exception may be concierge rooms at Jambo, but again, people that want cash concierge are probably more likely to book directly through Disney.

[dcamdad]

We personally have never rented out any of our points nor do we ever intend to, but as Chuck stated earlier some of us have owned since the early to mid 90's and have less than half the cost as today so were not looking to recoup as someone who just bought DVC.

[3DisneyKids]

This topic comes up quite a bit.

And remember that $10 per point is the "going" DIS rate...and not that many "outsiders" know about the DIS and renting points.

Folks who are commercial renters (do a ton of it) tend not to use the DIS. (1) Many DIS-DVCers frown on commercial renting (me included); and (2) they get that $14-$15 per point by renting in other venues.

Remember, also, that simply not that many people even know what DVC is or what renting points is. Yes, it is an awesome deal...but there are not that many folks who even klnow and/or understand what this is.

[DaveH]

We bought DVC in 2001 at VWL. If I remember right with today's dues and cost per point over length of contract $10 is around even for right now. If you are renting instead of trading out say for DVC, $10 per point might work well for them. It depends on what your reason is for renting out. I have a DS living in FL and I would give him use before renting out right now. That is my choice.

[Nigel8600]

Hi, just a quick note to DVC'ers, keep in mind that there are other boards out there with a whole different set of members and I remember seeing one board where some members in general won't rent for any less than 15 per point and they get a lot of renters at that price because they are united in their rental fee. :teacher:

[Chuck S]

A reminder that attempting to get others to agree to a set rental price is not allowed on the DVC boards. Prices here are set by the two individual parties involved, the renter and owner, not a group of owners.

[keishashadow]

Supply/demand & personal decision dictate i suppose

Did post on a thread on the Budget board as to speculation that the decline in economy may drive down the rental prices:confused3 .

imo, enjoying the villas @ $13 a point is a steal:thumbsup2 Just glad i haven't found myself in the position wherein i have to rent or haggle with a renter as to price.

[jekjones1558]

I think some DIS DVCers are starting to agree that rental prices have been too low. I notice more (though certainly not all) posters asking for $11 or $12/point. Not so long ago most were asking for only $10.

[UmmGooD]

I think as someone who currently does not own DVC and has not rented in the past I might be able to give an unbiased opinion about rental costs vs. booking directly through Disney. I do wish to purchase DVC but am not sure when that will happen I am waiting for the economy to calm down a bit as my job in Tech is very volatile.

I think the reason that renting needs to be a good deal vs. getting direct from Disney is for the following reasons.

1. I have less choices with DVC timeshares than with hotels. (I love Poly and being on the monorail).
2. I have a harder time booking rooms during peak seasons and I am sure some owners probably do not like having to arrange day by day reservations to get some of the in-demand rooms.
3. I have to find an owner with points at the resort I want to stay with in order to book during difficult times.
4. I am unable to cancel my reservation as the owner might be screwed and loose their points. (Even if they can cancel 30 days in advance they would then have to line up another deal at the last minute if they have points that might disappear.)
5. There is a huge amount of risk involved dealing with someone who you don't know and is not a business that has something to loose if you get screwed over something.
6. You have no real way of contacting MS directly to see if your room has really been reserved. You have to trust the person you are renting points from and they did not fabricate any of the info they are passing along to you.
7. I do not get mousekeeping like I would if I booked directly through Disney.

Given the points above if it were to only save me 20 to 25 percent over what I would pay with my AAA discount the risk and hassle would not make it worth it to me. Now with a 50% discount it is a much better deal. I think the rental prices are fair looking at it from a renter's perspective and not from someone trying to recoup the costs of purchasing and paying maintenance fees on their DVC membership.

Now if I eventually purchase a DVC membership it will be for me and my family to use. If something comes up or we cannot use our points then I might think about renting them but that wouldn't be to make enough money to offset our costs of membership it would be just so I don't loose the points and can put some money in my pocket to help pay for the membership fees.

I think over time rental fees should follow what Disney is booking rooms at but it should not be related to costs of ownership. I believe this is the entire supply and demand thing. If rental points cost too much people will just book direct through disney and forget the trouble of renting (or even go off site).

[bnlbebes]

I usually ask $12 per point from friends/board renters.

From family I ask $10 if they inquire about them, $0 if I am giving them as a gift.

I would be really interested in the website where members are united in asking $15 per point! Which one is it?

[toesmom]

I think some DIS DVCers are starting to agree that rental prices have been too low. I notice more (though certainly not all) posters asking for $11 or $12/point. Not so long ago most were asking for only $10.

You know I did notice that, and hopefully other DVC owners will see that they do offer a great value compared to Disney prices.

If I was a potential renter and could save $600-1000 on accommodations, you bet I would be taking the risk.

[toesmom]

A reminder that attempting to get others to agree to a set rental price is not allowed on the DVC boards. Prices here are set by the two individual parties involved, the renter and owner, not a group of owners.


Potential renters consistently state "will pay $10 per point" ; does that count as attempting to set rental price? Or the statement: "the going rate for points is $10 per point" count as setting a rental price?

It sort of seems to be the same thing. So really potential renters are setting the rental price, not the owners of the points. Does that not contravene the DISboards policy then?

[vicki_c]

Potential renters consistently state "will pay $10 per point" ; does that count as attempting to set rental price? Or the statement: "the going rate for points is $10 per point" count as setting a rental price?

It sort of seems to be the same thing. So really potential renters are setting the rental price, not the owners of the points. Does that not contravene the DISboards policy then?

To me, that is strictly an offer from 1 owner to potential renters (ETA: or vice versa - you added to your post while I was posting!). That is not at all the same as a group of people agreeing to to cap their prices (or a group of potential renters getting together and agreeing to only offer a set price). In the business world, that would be considered price-fixing and is illegal.

[WilsonFlyer]

To me, that is strictly an offer from 1 owner to potential renters (ETA: or vice versa - you added to your post while I was posting!). That is not at all the same as a group of people agreeing to to cap their prices (or a group of potential renters getting together and agreeing to only offer a set price). In the business world, that would be considered price-fixing and is illegal.

There seems to be a lot of poetic liberty taken with one of consumers' favorite terms, "price fixing."

It may be against the policies set forth by the private ownership of this forum (which they are certainly free to do but I will be searching for another DVC forum to hang my hat because of this sort of policy) but in this scenario, it is a far cry from being illegal.

There is no such thing as price-fixing unless virtually all sources for the product can be proven to be in on the conspiracy and if said product is a necessity.

I certainly doubt DVC accomodations are necessary and I doubt that the posters on DIS form any sort of corner on the DVC rental market.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you and I providing the same or similar product and agreeing "in kind" on a price range we deem fair for all parties concerned in the transaction. It's done in business all the time. Do you think it's a coincidence that Pepsi and Coke, most of the time; are priced within 2-5% of one another and when one goes up in price, the other usually does exactly the same or exactly the opposite within a day or two?

Business 101.

[BEASLYBOO]

Every 2 years or so I host a family reunion and I usually have to purchase extra points. I'm a DVC owner and the 3 individuals that I've dealt with all transferred their points to me rather than renting. I've never paid more than $10 a point, and that was the asking price, I've never negotiated for a cheaper price, it's what the owners wanted. It's my understanding that these very nice people that i've dealt with, didn't want to profit from not being able to use their points but that if they couldn't use their points it would at least pay for their maintenance fees and a little extra. They felt better dealing w/ a DVC owner rather than just a renter. Now, if in the same situation I would give my points to family members if I couldn't use them, or at least get enough to pay my maintenance if I dealt with anyone other than close friends or family.

[Chuck S]

Potential renters consistently state "will pay $10 per point" ; does that count as attempting to set rental price? Or the statement: "the going rate for points is $10 per point" count as setting a rental price?

It sort of seems to be the same thing. So really potential renters are setting the rental price, not the owners of the points. Does that not contravene the DISboards policy then?

No, it does not violate policy for an individual to make an offer to rent points at $x per point. If the price is too low for the owner, either make a counter offer, or move on to the next renter.

However, again, for the owners to negotiate an agreement among themselves in an attempt have a single rental price or minimum rental price is against board policy. Each owner and renter are individuals, and can freely negotiate the price of the transaction.

[vicki_c]

I wasn't suggesting that it would be price-fixing or illegal in the case of DVC members. That is why I specifically stated "in the business world" in my post. This is clearly not in the business world. If my post suggested otherwise, it was misinterpreted or not well-written.

I have been doing government contracts work for over 20 years and collusion can be an issue. I used the term price fixing simply because it's easier to understand, if not exactly legally accurate. As for your Coke and Pepsi example, that is certainly true, but the point is, Coke and Pepsi are not allowed to TALK to each other about it and agree that that's what they're going to do.

But again, I did not mean that DVC renters would be doing anything illegal. As Chuck stated, it is simply against DIS policy for renters to set prices.

[salmoneous]

It's done in business all the time. Do you think it's a coincidence that Pepsi and Coke, most of the time; are priced within 2-5% of one another and when one goes up in price, the other usually does exactly the same or exactly the opposite within a day or two?

Business 101. Business 101 might discuss the concept of "price leadership" which is the phenomia you discuss above. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_leadership

You discussion of what does and doesn't constitute price fixing is completely different from what the lawyers at my companies have always explained. Can you privide some background to help me understand your note that "There is no such thing as price-fixing unless virtually all sources for the product can be proven to be in on the conspiracy and if said product is a necessity."

[Nigel8600]

I usually ask $12 per point from friends/board renters.

From family I ask $10 if they inquire about them, $0 if I am giving them as a gift.

I would be really interested in the website where members are united in asking $15 per point! Which one is it?

I don't remember which one it was, there are so many of them out there. I do however remember it was one you had to pay a membership fee on to post there because I tried to sign up RIGHT AWAY, it was also a really short name and started with a T. :rolleyes1

[Nigel8600]

Every 2 years or so I host a family reunion and I usually have to purchase extra points. I'm a DVC owner and the 3 individuals that I've dealt with all transferred their points to me rather than renting. I've never paid more than $10 a point, and that was the asking price, I've never negotiated for a cheaper price, it's what the owners wanted. It's my understanding that these very nice people that i've dealt with, didn't want to profit from not being able to use their points but that if they couldn't use their points it would at least pay for their maintenance fees and a little extra. They felt better dealing w/ a DVC owner rather than just a renter. Now, if in the same situation I would give my points to family members if I couldn't use them, or at least get enough to pay my maintenance if I dealt with anyone other than close friends or family.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I agree. Transferring points to another member (who has shelled out their $16,000.00 purchase fee) is quite an easy task to do and keeping it in the DVC family points should only be worth 10.

But when you rent them out, you have to phone reservations, usually more than once cause you have to see if the dates are available for the renter first, then you have to communicate with the renter again to make sure they want the reservation and that they are not wasting your time or maybe they have already found another member who made the reservations, or maybe they changed their mind on the dates, etc.

Also, you run the risk of them never sending you money for the rental after you make it, then you have to call back and cancel it. Plus, if this happens, don't members points on cancelled reservations go into some kind of 60 day holding account where you can't use them? Maybe someone can clarify this cause I'm not a member yet.

Renting in my opinion is worth 15 per point especially if you are getting them reservations in a villa thats only available to the home resort owners in the 11 to 7 month window. And yes granted there are exceptions, if you are a member and you forgot about your points and they are expiring in 1 or 2 months you do need to liquidate them fast for 8 to 10 is also fair too.

In closing let me iterate (because you CAN'T RE-ITERATE until you iterate) I am not trying to set price on rental fees for points cause that's against the rules but I am just stating what I would rent my points out for if I ever get through ROFR.

[UConnJack]

Try to rent them for whatever you like, nobody is stopping you. Most people do not rent for (significant) profit, but are just trying to get a fair price for points they can't use. The going rate is not $10, its more like $11-12. People may say they are willing to pay $10 a point, and they may get it if the renter is looking to unload in a hurry, but most renters hold out and get $11 to $12. However, if you don't like the going rates on DIS, particularly if you are looking at renting DVC as a money making enterprise, you should go somewhere else to rent your points.

The renters here on DIS are typically less concerned about making an additional $50 on their rental than they are about a quick, smooth, and stable rental. At $15 a point, potential rentees would be much more hesitant about renting from complete strangers with significant restrictions on the rental (location, cancellation, housekeeping, etc.), not to mention rentees would be potentially more likely to have buyers remorse and renigh on the rental. Like someone else said, you may think it's still a great deal, at $15 a point, but with all the restrictions, it really isn't for a lot of people.

I personally don't base my point value on what Disney charges on a room, because its really comparing apples to oranges. Rather I base my personal value on the points based on what kind of cash equivalent trade I can get for a cruise or another timeshare trade. In other words, the cash I can get renting the X number of points it would take to trade in to a cruise at $11-$12 a point usually surpasses the cash cost of booking that cruise directly. This way I pay for my cruise and have left over cash for my troubles.

[Chuck S]

Also, you run the risk of them never sending you money for the rental after you make it, then you have to call back and cancel it. Plus, if this happens, don't members points on cancelled reservations go into some kind of 60 day holding account where you can't use them? Maybe someone can clarify this cause I'm not a member yet.



No, canceled reservations do not automatically go into holding status, only if you cancel 30 days or less from arrival date. Otherwise they return to normal status within their use year. That is why most owners specify that final payment for renters are due at least 45 days from arrival.

However, the problem may come into play if the reservation is canceled during the final 4 months of a use year, as the banking window would be past.

For instance, someone with a June use year rents points for a May reservation. At 45 days out, they cancel and the owner cancels the reservation. The owner then only has until May 31 to use those points, they can not be banked as they are inside the banking window, or they will lose the points. Of course, the renter also runs a risk. They could make final payment, the owner could cancel, and they would simply be out the money. Thankfully, neither scenario happens often, but be aware that there is plenty of risk on both sides of the transaction...and ultimately it is up to the renter paying the cash how much $$ they are willing to put at risk.

Without a full refund policy in place for most rentals, no daily housekeeping, the remote, yet real, possibility of the owner canceling the reservation...many renters may not be willing to accept that risk for $15 per point. Especially when you consider that even a studio at OKW in low season is 8 points per night (or $120 @ $15) when they could reserve at a Disney value resort for about the same amount of $$ and have refund guarantees and housekeeping. And possibly even get free dining in the appropriate season.

[SleepyatDVC]

Try to rent them for whatever you like, nobody is stopping you. Most people do not rent for (significant) profit, but are just trying to get a fair price for points they can't use. The going rate is not $10, its more like $11-12. People may say they are willing to pay $10 a point, and they may get it if the renter is looking to unload in a hurry, but most renters hold out and get $11 to $12. However, if you don't like the going rates on DIS, particularly if you are looking at renting DVC as a money making enterprise, you should go somewhere else to rent your points.

The renters here on DIS are typically less concerned about making an additional $50 on their rental than they are about a quick, smooth, and stable rental. At $15 a point, potential rentees would be much more hesitant about renting from complete strangers with significant restrictions on the rental (location, cancellation, housekeeping, etc.), not to mention rentees would be potentially more likely to have buyers remorse and renigh on the rental. Like someone else said, you may think it's still a great deal, at $15 a point, but with all the restrictions, it really isn't for a lot of people.

I personally don't base my point value on what Disney charges on a room, because its really comparing apples to oranges. Rather I base my personal value on the points based on what kind of cash equivalent trade I can get for a cruise or another timeshare trade. In other words, the cash I can get renting the X number of points it would take to trade in to a cruise at $11-$12 a point usually surpasses the cash cost of booking that cruise directly. This way I pay for my cruise and have left over cash for my troubles.


I couldn't have said it better myself. ITA.

[Inkmahm]

Every 2 years or so I host a family reunion and I usually have to purchase extra points. I'm a DVC owner and the 3 individuals that I've dealt with all transferred their points to me rather than renting. I've never paid more than $10 a point, and that was the asking price, I've never negotiated for a cheaper price, it's what the owners wanted. It's my understanding that these very nice people that i've dealt with, didn't want to profit from not being able to use their points but that if they couldn't use their points it would at least pay for their maintenance fees and a little extra. They felt better dealing w/ a DVC owner rather than just a renter. Now, if in the same situation I would give my points to family members if I couldn't use them, or at least get enough to pay my maintenance if I dealt with anyone other than close friends or family.
Same here. I have once transferred in points and once transferred out points. I don't want to deal with renting at all. I will deal with fellow DVC owners instead. The points I transferred were at $11. I think that's fair. If I were doing the work of renting those points for someone and having to make their reservation, etc, I would think I'd charge more. Then again, $11 is fine with me for an easy transaction like transferring points.

[crisi]

Business 101 might discuss the concept of "price leadership" which is the phenomia you discuss above. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_leadership

You discussion of what does and doesn't constitute price fixing is completely different from what the lawyers at my companies have always explained. Can you privide some background to help me understand your note that "There is no such thing as price-fixing unless virtually all sources for the product can be proven to be in on the conspiracy and if said product is a necessity."


Its moot anyway, since

1) Its against board policy whether it is legal or not. This board is entitled to have and enforce its own policies.

2) Getting DIS DVC owners to agree on a price and stick to it will be like herding feral cats. What is the punishment going to be? Unless the owners/moderators of this board want to be an enforcement arm - and since they've traditional held a very free market view toward this, that's doubtful, you could talk til you are blue in the face and someone is still going to come along and firesale their points for $7.

Anyone can rent your points or not. Anyone can charge $6 or $40 a point when you do so (though there may not be many takers at $40). No one has a right to tell me what I should do with my points or how much I should charge for them.