I'm sick of the tipping issue

[mousehouselover]

A tip is a little something extra for doing a job; a gratuity is a gesture of gratitude. This implies it is a gift given at the discretion of the giver.

When it is expected or even added as an extra charge for your meal IT IS NO LONGER OPTIONAL OR DISCRETIONARY. It has become a service charge. An extra fee added to your meal for not having to do the work yourself. The wait staff/bussers/bartenders ect make their paychecks based on this service fee.

I am flat out disgusted by all the talk and discussion over how much and who pays what. I think it is horrible practice to force an employee to depend on the fickle clientele and ebb and flow of business to earn a decent living. I don't know when it happened but the practice of paying these people a lower wage and expecting the rest of us to make up the difference cheats everyone. Why do I say that?

My pay hasn't gone up much in the last few years but the cost of everything has. I do choose to go to WDW or other establishments and have people wait on me; when I have the discretionary income to do so. I didn't do any of these things for many years because we didn't have the funds. Now I have to pay an even larger service fee (10-15% is no longer acceptable in most places) to cover the rising living costs of the people who choose to work in the service industry. I have revised my personal budget to meet my financial goals and to enjoy my life. That means we eat out less and at more middle of the road establishments, cutting things we used to order like appetizers, sodas and desserts. I know the rest of the counrty is doing the same and feeling the current financial pinch. The wait staff ultimately suffers because fewer patrons ordering less food equal fewer opportunities to earn tips which is a reduction in overall income.

If servers weren't paid as second class citizens, we wouldn't have the debate, different customs or practices or even the need to flame one another for our personal beliefs regarding tips.

This is not a discussion of if we should leave something or even what is acceptable. I find it disgusting that we feel we have to discuss this at all. I hate the fact it is based on an arribtrary % rather than on a flat rate service charge.

If I go to Olive Garden and order the unlimited soup, salad and breadsticks with water to drink for lunch, my bill would be about $6. A 20% service charge on my meal would be $1.20, but I drink a lot of water and may have 3 bowls of soup or even an extra salad, requiring my server to visit my table 8-10 times during the course of my dining experience. Another patron may order a soda ($2), an app ($6), an entree ($14) and a dessert ($5) and has fewer needs but pays a service charge of $5.40. She worked harder for the acceptable service charge for the smaller bill than she did for the larger one. If it was a flat rate per person, say $3-5 (for this resaruant) she would make about the same or slightly more and there would be no ambiguity about what is being left for the services performed.

The servers are no longer under pressure to upsell the menu to increase their pay for the night and they know they are getting paid for the work they are doing. It may mean that the service fee may be a higher percentage than what we are currently 'tipping' but everyone wins. Patrons get good service and it takes away the pressure of rating the work done or paying the acceptable 'tip' for poor server and the servers don't feel cheated out of pay for doing their job.

[Sandy321]

I agree! and its definately a POV I've had...

I think its easier to do something, (tip in this case) than to try and explain it to others.

and I think its hard to put your opinion down on the internet - with so many opinions out there, and everyone has opinions, so in this medium and forum, we post! (and some critics can be harsh!)

[rlduvall]

I totally agree with you that we have been forced to "subsidize" waitstaff's income (at Disney and other restaurants) . . . all (and only) to the benefit of the employer. Of course, I am not saying don't tip - I always tip 20% - and I don't get the opinion you are saying not to tip . . . so people don't get nasty. The OP has made several well thought out and rational concerns over this aggravating "service charge" that will never disappear.

[DiszyDean]

It is a system that has worked well for, oh lets say, the last 60 years or so. Its traditional and expected in our society. Nothing is going to change that.

I am somewhat sick of the tipping issue as well. If you want to eat at a sit down resteraunt and be served, either tip or go eat at a counter service.

[Katiebell]

I understand the points you are making, and many of them are good ones. Miss Manners agrees with you, and she thinks the tipping system in American restaurants is just deplorable. However, she doesn't advocate not tipping as a solution; in fact, etiquette still demands that you tip 15%-20% at a table service meal. There's no arguing that point at all -- every accepted etiquette expert agrees on that.

It's the system we have in this country. Are you proposing that servers could still legally be paid less than minimum wage, but then a mandatory service fee would be tacked on per person served? Would that mandatory service fee include say, someone just having dessert and coffee? I wouldn't mind so much paying $4.50 service charge for a full meal, but not if my total tab was only $4.50. And I think that rude or demanding patrons should have an "impossible to please" surcharge added to their bills, and maybe there should be an "especially messy toddler" fee :rotfl2:

Seriously, though, your idea of a service charge would bring us more in line with the way other countries do things. It makes the service fee mandatory, which it seems a lot of people would balk at -- but then there wouldn't be any argument about whether or not to pay it, or how much to pay. How would you propose to make this sweeping change across America changing the system as we know it?

Oh, and do you think some servers would be unhappy about the change, if they work hard to provide really spectacular service, and usually get excellent tips?

[Lehuaann]

I dont mind giving. It is better to give than to receive. It is even better when it comes from the heart and not out of obligation.

What started out years ago as an innocently good deed has mutated into a greed-riddled gratuity system. Who's to blame? I would like to say the restaurant owners. Or, maybe we have only our own generosity to blame.

I do know one thing, the serve staff is not at fault for wanting to earn an honest days wages through tipping. Almost every hourly waiter/waitress I have spoken to cringes when explaining they only make $2.15 an hour plus tips.

I cannot lay my head down at night knowing that someone did me a great service without the proper pay. That tip could mean the difference between a childs meal or diapers...that is why I tip.

[smidgy]

an answer would be: give servers a decent wage, without tips. the result: since owners would have to pay more for employees, the price of the meals would increase.
the TRUE result: customers would be paying more for their meals, thusly, being FORCED to pay a tip (although it wouldn't be called that)that is now voluntary. you customers that complain about tipping don't realize how good you have it. you now HAVE the discretion to tip or not. and to do so according to service recieved. if you do away with the "tip system" VERY FEW would be willing to work that job, not for minimum wage. most people in this country understand that if you have the money do go out for Dinner, you will be tipping., and figure that into your night's expense.
now if you go to a "NO TIP" system, the restaurant owner has to pay the server much more than the $3 per hour they do. so the price of your entree just went up, automatically. and you will have to pay that, regardless of the service you recieved, (just like you have to pay $X amount for the shirt you bought, even if the clerk was a jerk. just one example)
the prices you see on your menu are such because the rest. owner pays little to the servers. they are allowing the servers to "do their own business WITHIN their business".
If you do away with the TIP system, you can better believe the prices of entrees will REALLY RISE! right now, you pay the prices you do, and have the discretion to tip or not tip, and YOU decide the amount. and yet, people complain about that.
that is the system in the Untied States right now. It has NOTHING to do with who CHOSE this profession. MOst of us servers CHOSE this profession, not because we are low lifes with no education, but because we enjoy serving others and giving them a good dining experience. ( And we know we can make good money, as long as we are good at what we do.)
I guarantee, if you do away with the tip system, you will get terrible service for much higher prices. NO ONE DECENT will work as servers for minimum wage.
we CHOOSE to work for the lower wage, depending on people to figure the tip into their "night out". again... if it weren't so, your entree would be much more expensive. and your server would have NO incentive to give you good service.

[smidgy]

I. I think it is horrible practice to force an employee to depend on the fickle clientele and ebb and flow of business to earn a decent living. I don't know when it happened but the practice of paying these people a lower wage and expecting the rest of us to make up the difference cheats everyone..

it is not these "terrible" restaurant owners, treating the poor, downtrodden servers little pay, and expecting customers to "make-up" the difference. this is all included in the price of the menu! as I've said, if you switch to a higher pay scale for servers, with no tipping, all the menu prices will go up drastically,and the customers will have to pay that set amount, no matter what. New York recently looked into that. hmmm, as a server, add 15% to the price of entrees, and pay me the difference in my paycheck....sounds ok to me! (not really, cause I usually get 20% cause I'm an attentive server) but there are always those who tip 10% ot not at all cause they don't believe in tipping, and I give them great service reagardless..
but servers who don't care will get the same pay as I, and your bill will be higher to make up for the higher pay scale. but. you won't have to tip anymore.

[sjaakie]

I guarantee, if you do away with the tip system, you will get terrible service for much higher prices.

That's nonsense. Other countries and continents got rid of this system ages ago and the services ore waiters is/are not better ore worse than in the USA.

[bicker]

I think you'll get roughly the same level of service you get now, or perhaps just a little lower, for much higher prices.

[sjaakie]

I think you'll get roughly the same level of service you get now, or perhaps just a little lower, for much higher prices.



That's also nonsense. You pay the same price with ore without the tip.
I just can't understand why a civilized nation keep cherishing a system that's pays slavery wages to a special kind of profession

And don’t' give me the crap of free market ore that's the American way.

[bicker]

No, not nonsense. You perhaps just misunderstood me. The prices would be much higher. They would be roughly the current prices, plus the cost of service on top of that, which is now accounted for as the gratuity.

[kaytieeldr]

I think the increase would be even higher than that, given the additional payroll costs.

[sjaakie]

No, not nonsense. You perhaps just misunderstood me. The prices would be much higher. They would be roughly the current prices, plus the cost of service on top of that, which is now accounted for as the gratuity.

So what????
The prices would roughly rise 15 %.
That's a know fact in countries that made a law of it.
I just see the whole tipping system as a way to show the wait staff whose the boss .
“If you don’t jump the way I like you get no tip’

[comingtodisney]

hi i am from the uk, we have the minimum wage, the employer has to pay the national minimum wage to every one over the age of 21, so no matter what industry you work in the employer has to give you the minimum hourly rate, it does'nt matter if you are working full time or part time, what i am trying to say is i work in quality control and get paid the minimum wage, when i go out to eat i know that the server is on no less than what i am on, so i believe that when we leave a tip it is a bonus, i do not think the servers reckon on 18 to 20%, if this was the case i would not be able to afford to take my family out for a meal. i always always leave a tip, and if it is just for drinks i will say have a drink for yourself, they will either take money for a small beer or short. there is never anything at the bottom of the bill to say what tip you are leaving, you either just leave cash on the table or ask them to add the tip to your credit card. if an employer tried to pay you under the minimum wage and said you had to make it up with tips, i am sure there would be a national outcry.

[bicker]

So what????What do you mean by that? This is a discussion. I made a statement. The statement is relevant and has validity, and it does have impact for many people. If it is something you agree with (as appears to be the case) then please just pass it by, and leave it for other folks to see. No harm, no foul.

That's a know fact in countries that made a law of it.There are many proponents of doing away with the gratuity that would contend that the law shouldn't address that aspect of it. They think they can "have their cake and eat it too." They're wrong, I agree, but they exist.

I just see the whole tipping system as a way to show the wait staff whose the boss . “If you don’t jump the way I like you get no tip’The customer is always "boss" in these contexts. If it isn't a matter of controlling the gratuity, then it will be a matter of, "I'll complain to your boss." That is what folks should be doing anyway, but rest assured that if a government edict converts gratuities into a service charge in this country, many people in this country will react in a manner whereby they will use the complaint as a means of taking out their frustrations at what they decide to perceive as bad service, and oh yes there will be many nasty scenes in restaurants as these people take their frustrations out on the restaurants for this law. For them, the conversion from gratuity to service charge will be like poking them with a stick.

[Mackey Mouse]

OK........

Can I just ask that we step back and deep breathe here. This is a passionate topic, but with that, I am going to say that I will not allow people to start bashing each other around for their opinions. We are always going to have the European way and the American way, and service will depend on the servers, whether they are tipped or not.

Please think about your response and how you say it when responding.

We are watching this thread and if the consensus is that it is over the top, be prepared that it will be locked.

[bicker]

... i would not be able to afford to take my family out for a meal.It should be noted that nothing about this discussion would change that aspect of this issue. We're not talking about meals being any more expensive or less expensive than they are now. It is just a matter of how much of the cost of the meal would be the menu price (including service charge) versus gratuities. We're talking about a change that is not very much different from a shell game, moving this to over here, with no real impact on the bottom-line total. All that would change is how easy it will be for a patron to reflect their dissatisfaction in the server's compensation, that's all.

[bicker]

We are always going to have the European way and the American wayWell, I hope so, at least. :hippie:

[Mackey Mouse]

Me too, that is what makes the world go round.. Different can be beautiful...right?

[sjaakie]

Me too, that is what makes the world go round.. Different can be beautiful...right?



Sure that's makes the world go around :thumbsup2

It just makes ME feel much better if I know the waiters that serve's me gets a normal fee and the tip I still and ALWAYS give can be used to buy flowers for his wife as a surprise and not as a tooth biter to pay the medicine bill.

[comingtodisney]

if i have offended anybody please accept my appologies, i do understand that they work hard and provide a good service, even working unsociable hours. i just want the tip i leave to be a thank you, and not to make up their wage, again my sincerest appologies.

[Katiebell]

I dont mind giving. It is better to give than to receive. It is even better when it comes from the heart and not out of obligation.

What started out years ago as an innocently good deed has mutated into a greed-riddled gratuity system. Who's to blame? I would like to say the restaurant owners. Or, maybe we have only our own generosity to blame.

I do know one thing, the serve staff is not at fault for wanting to earn an honest days wages through tipping. Almost every hourly waiter/waitress I have spoken to cringes when explaining they only make $2.15 an hour plus tips.

I cannot lay my head down at night knowing that someone did me a great service without the proper pay. That tip could mean the difference between a childs meal or diapers...that is why I tip.

Beautifully stated, and I could not agree more. Kudos! :hug:

an answer would be: give servers a decent wage, without tips. the result: since owners would have to pay more for employees, the price of the meals would increase.
the TRUE result: customers would be paying more for their meals, thusly, being FORCED to pay a tip (although it wouldn't be called that)that is now voluntary. you customers that complain about tipping don't realize how good you have it. you now HAVE the discretion to tip or not. and to do so according to service recieved. if you do away with the "tip system" VERY FEW would be willing to work that job, not for minimum wage. most people in this country understand that if you have the money do go out for Dinner, you will be tipping., and figure that into your night's expense.
now if you go to a "NO TIP" system, the restaurant owner has to pay the server much more than the $3 per hour they do. so the price of your entree just went up, automatically. and you will have to pay that, regardless of the service you recieved, (just like you have to pay $X amount for the shirt you bought, even if the clerk was a jerk. just one example)
the prices you see on your menu are such because the rest. owner pays little to the servers. they are allowing the servers to "do their own business WITHIN their business".
If you do away with the TIP system, you can better believe the prices of entrees will REALLY RISE! right now, you pay the prices you do, and have the discretion to tip or not tip, and YOU decide the amount. and yet, people complain about that.
that is the system in the Untied States right now. It has NOTHING to do with who CHOSE this profession. MOst of us servers CHOSE this profession, not because we are low lifes with no education, but because we enjoy serving others and giving them a good dining experience. ( And we know we can make good money, as long as we are good at what we do.)
I guarantee, if you do away with the tip system, you will get terrible service for much higher prices. NO ONE DECENT will work as servers for minimum wage.
we CHOOSE to work for the lower wage, depending on people to figure the tip into their "night out". again... if it weren't so, your entree would be much more expensive. and your server would have NO incentive to give you good service.

Again I agree...but HOW would we make this change? Short of a government overthrow and total anarchy... :rotfl2:

I highlighted one particular point you made because it is very valid...people in this country are willing to accept minimum wage (which is really not enough to live on in most places) for very few jobs. Mostly students who are still living at home and don't have a lot of bills to pay -- fast food, some retail positions, etc. Just minimum wage is not enough to pay a server who works hard and does a good job -- they could get a much easier job for that kind of pay. The reason the profession attracts quality workers is because if they are GOOD, they can make a pretty good living serving...because of tips.

[SnowWitch]

I am now putting on my flame suit. So torchers lock and load but heres my HO. The attitude I draw from most of these tip based threads are " we should all pretty well be tipping 18-20% regardless of buffet or al la carte. So with this theory in hand and my reciepts from our recent trip to the world as a party of six. I have come to this conclusion. Those who feel we all should tip 18-20% must value their servers far more than their childrens teachers or any type of masters or bachlor level RN who choses to work dayshift. Why do I say this? I challenge each of you to search your states teaching salary for an educator with 0-5 years experience and RN salary. I tipped an average of $25 per meal, that includes a meal where I saw my server twice and had to ask for refills and other needed items from other staff. I refuse to argue a tip with management so I will chose from now on to book our group as 2 parties. Tips should be earned not guaranteed. Any server who has a party of 6 is going to make at least $25.00 an hour, any teachers or nurses on this board?

[DiszyDean]

I am now putting on my flame suit. So torchers lock and load but heres my HO. The attitude I draw from most of these tip based threads are " we should all pretty well be tipping 18-20% regardless of buffet or al la carte. So with this theory in hand and my reciepts from our recent trip to the world as a party of six. I have come to this conclusion. Those who feel we all should tip 18-20% must value their servers far more than their childrens teachers or any type of masters or bachlor level RN who choses to work dayshift. Why do I say this? I challenge each of you to search your states teaching salary for an educator with 0-5 years experience and RN salary. I tipped an average of $25 per meal, that includes a meal where I saw my server twice and had to ask for refills and other needed items from other staff. I refuse to argue a tip with management so I will chose from now on to book our group as 2 parties. Tips should be earned not guaranteed. Any server who has a party of 6 is going to make at least $25.00 an hour, any teachers or nurses on this board?

I am trying very hard not to flame here...

But the comparison does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Are you saying that servers should not be tipped because you perceive that they make more than a teacher or a nurse and if we do tip a server 20%, we must care more about them than our children?

Last time I checked, teachers and nurses chose to be teachers and nurses just as servers chose to be servers.

I have seen this comparison before and let me say with some kind of certainty that outside of major tourist areas, the great majority of servers probably do make less per year than a teacher or nurse.

Either way, wages are ultimately set by what the public is willing to pay for a service. I hear a lot of people say how it is horrible about how little teachers are paid but I would also say that many of those same people wouldn't vote for an increase in their taxes to pay for an increase in teacher's wages. If they would be willing to do that, teachers would probably make more than they do.

[kaytieeldr]

have come to this conclusion. Those who feel we all should tip 18-20% must value their servers far more than their childrens teachers or any type of masters or bachlor level RN who choses to work dayshift. Why do I say this? I challenge each of you to search your states teaching salary for an educator with 0-5 years experience and RN salary No flames. On the other hand, I feel I should tip 20% except for horrendous service. I feel everybody who eats in a restaurant with menu or buffet service - where one or more employees' jobs is to provide some type of direct service to the diner - should tip, especially given the base wages for those servers.

The problem with your argument is that teachers and nurses earn a guaranteed base salary that is MUCH higher than what a server earns. People who feel those in the important careers like education or nursing are not paid enough are welcome to reward the ones with whom they come in contact. While not a tip, per se, given the value of the job that teachers and nurses do - combined with the general knowledge that teachers usually need to spend their own money to provide supplies, etc, to their students - done tactfully I'm SURE they would appreciate the equivalent of a tip.

[Pumbaa_]

You are tired of the tipping threads? :lmao: :rotfl2: :lmao: :rotfl2: :lmao: :rotfl2:

Ok, I feel better now. I think that people start adding up and think that servers are working 40 hrs a week making tons of money. Not to mention the lack of benefits. My job contributes to my 401k, pays the majority of my health insurance, and provides life insurance in addition to my paycheck. DO you think servers enjoy that perk? Doubt it.

A server can make decent money. especially when they have years of experience and have chosen to make a career out of it and work their way up to signature dining. Where they have to know their wines, what compliments what, make suggestions, engage their customers, etc.

A great waiter can really enhance a dining experience by their knowledge and suggestions. I have tried things I would never have ordered after discussions with servers.

Do I think everyone has that skill. Nope, but it does take years of service to gain that skill. Hence they tend to work in more upscale places.

Tipping is what it is. If you plan on tipping $1 per person because that is what you do at home, there is nothing I can say or do that will convince you that your way is not right for you. I may disagree, and I may have a different viewpoint, but that's ok.

Do what your conscience allows, have a great Disney trip, and make memories for a lifetime, I know I will :thumbsup2

[Stinky_Pete]

I find this to be a very interesting thread.

I see tipping as a form of deceptive pricing. If I go to a restaurant and the menu says the entree is $25 that, in my mind, is what I should be paying for it. But in reality that entree is really $29.50 after an 18% tip. Even more after tax. Is that amount at my discretion? At WDW not if I'm with a party of 6 or more or if I'm using the DDE. So it's really not a "tip" it is a surcharge. And frankly, because it is so expected in our society, even if I'm a solo diner I better leave that tip!

I feel much the same way about "resort convenience fees." They are really a way for the resort to conveniently charge me more than the stated room rate, whether or not I use the amenities the fee is supposed to pay for.

Many cruise lines have begun adding $10 per passenger per day to the shipboard account to pay the gratuitues of the cabin steward, waiter, etc. That really adds up over the course of a week or longer cruise. They used to pass out envelopes the last night and "suggest" an amount. Again, no longer the passengers' discretion so to me no longer a tip - more of a surcharge.

I would love the day when the printed price reflected the true cost...and I'm including tax in that. So if the menu said the entree was $25 then that's what I truly paid. Not $25 + tax + 18% tip. No more of people complaining about the "mandatory" 18% for parties of 6 or more or DDE users - you are just paying what the menu said the items you ordered cost. Of course in my fantasy world the entree price would no longer be $25 it would be $35 or more, but it would be the true cost of what I ended up paying anyway.

Also, I don't think that the wait staff would be any worse off - actually a little better. Just build the 18% into the menu pricing (plus the tax, please) and use that 18% to pay the staff, distributing as the management sees fit (bartender, bussers, etc.). The servers would make the same money as they currently do, and probably more, because they wouldn't get "stiffed." The incentive would still be there to provide good service - moving up to better shifts (like dinner) venues with higher check averages, etc. If you thought you got exceptional service you could still leave a few bucks on the table. But it would be an unexpected gift as sjaakie implied rather than a surcharge which is what it is now.

Here's food for thought - correct me if I'm wrong because I've never been to one, but doesn't the price at the Disney dinner shows (Hoop De Doo Revue, Spirit of Aloha) include tax and gratuity? If not there, why not elsewhere? I know, because then you would truly know how much more that filet is going to cost you over the chicken and you may not order it. The $10 difference stated on the menu would really be well over $12. But who actually does the math in that much detail when you're ordering at a restaurant? I know I don't.

[phlufster]

I refuse to argue a tip with management so I will chose from now on to book our group as 2 parties. Tips should be earned not guaranteed. Any server who has a party of 6 is going to make at least $25.00 an hour, any teachers or nurses on this board?

Keep in mind if you do book as separate parties, you would be sat at separate tables and possibly seperate times.

[polineedyan]

Each employer is required to pay each employee minimum wage. (at least.)
In past years, employers have been able to get away with paying the lower server rate, without knowing what the servers are making. Reputable companies make sure that between their contribution (the hourly) and tips combine or average to minimum wage.
With the advent of the IRS scrutinizing server pay, to cut down on unreported tips, they have come down heavy on the employers rather than the servers themselves. Many companies now require servers to claim upwards of 13% of their total sales, whether they made it or not, to cover the companies tax liability and to ensure that the server makes that minimum wage. By monitoring what a companies' service people are making, it is acutally less out of pocket for the employer, because they are ENSURING that their servers make the minimum wage.
Its an attempt at accuracy, however it is lame. Can you imagine getting a bill from your landscaper that had a service fee for each employee that worked on your lawn? Its their job to pay their people, not ours. However, they could have just as easily raised their prices to cover that expense. This service fee or automatic tip is an attempt to pin it on the server, rather than increase prices.
Many companies nationwide have an automatic gratuity for larger parties already. Why not smaller ones too? I can tell you that there has been many a night when I have had a check for 100 bucks and made 2, and sitting right next to the 100 dollar check is a 20 check who left me 5.
At least you know where your money is going..

[nswift]

I absolutely do not mind tipping ! When service is good, I tip the suggested amount...when service is great I tip more, and I make a point of telling managment. However, if service is subpar, the tip should be less than the standard ~ and I should not feel guilty.

Unfortunately, I now rate good service as taking my order within 15 minutes of being seated, and a pleasant expression or personality. I suppose that is one of the main reasons that I LOVE Disney World, and Disney Cruiseline ~ 90 percent of the time I receive GREAT customer service! The CM's that do a nice job make my vacation, and I tip accordingly. But I am sure that everyone has their own idea of good service, and will tip what they think appropriate.

Oh, and I am an RN. I have also worked as a waitress ~ I made very good money b/c I treated customers the way I would like to be treated. It is pretty sad that I made as much as a waitress, as I do as a nurse. Granted, I love the job satisfaction of my profession. I would not, however, tip my server less b/c I begrudge what she is earning! She/he does need to earn the tip they expect.

:worship: I so appreciate good CM's ! 'nough said. :worship:

[bavaria]

So, may I now present a different perspective? For those who do not 'know' me, I travel about 300 nights a year. I eat out most nights for dinner, and often for lunch or breakfast, and I often eat out when at home. That makes sadly for a lot of meals out in restaurants, much as I would prefer to cook my own food every once in awhile!

My dining experiences range from high end to mid range to the times I crave a very mundane meal at an American pancake house.

I am also as you see from my username not American. My travel brings me all around the world, so I experience service in places where tips are not included, and places where they are included.

Do I see a marked difference in service when a server has to 'work' for their tip, vs the places where service is included in the total?

NO

My experience in countries where service is included is that servers are held to a high standard, just as they are when diners choose the tip amount. They have to be, or they would damage the reputation of the restaurant.

Included or excluded, it doesn't seem to make much difference to the service I receive.

[nswift]

Bavaria, I could see that. I also do not believe that the times I have received good, or great, service has been due to someone just working towards a better tip. I think those servers are just good at their job, or just good with people. I suspect they would do a good job with or without the tip.

[DiszyDean]

So, may I now present a different perspective? For those who do not 'know' me, I travel about 300 nights a year. I eat out most nights for dinner, and often for lunch or breakfast, and I often eat out when at home. That makes sadly for a lot of meals out in restaurants, much as I would prefer to cook my own food every once in awhile!

My dining experiences range from high end to mid range to the times I crave a very mundane meal at an American pancake house.

I am also as you see from my username not American. My travel brings me all around the world, so I experience service in places where tips are not included, and places where they are included.

Do I see a marked difference in service when a server has to 'work' for their tip, vs the places where service is included in the total?

NO

My experience in countries where service is included is that servers are held to a high standard, just as they are when diners choose the tip amount. They have to be, or they would damage the reputation of the restaurant.

Included or excluded, it doesn't seem to make much difference to the service I receive.

I agree with this. I do not think it makes a difference in service whether the tip is included or not. A good server is a good server.

I think most servers in the US would be thrilled if they were paid a guaranteed hourly wage equal to even 15% of the total sales.

Of course, that could cause a little grief with the customer that they are not expecting.

The 15%-18% cost would be passed on to them through either a service charge or through increased food/beverage costs. This happens in countries that do not expect tipped service but it has been happening so long, people may or may not realize it. The resteraunts are not going to eat that cost out of the kindness of their hearts.

Also, tipping in itself, gives the customer a greater sense of control over the service they receive. Whether that be imaginary or real.

[fall08CP]

I have worked in the service industry myself and have many friends who are currently waitresses. They are making well above minimum wage because of the tips. Think about it.. at a Disney restaurant a server could make $20+ in tips in one hour at one table. If they have 2-3 tables, that's quite a lot of dough. When I worked in the industry a couple of years ago, the management was required to make up the difference if the server's tips were not putting them at or above minimum wage. Therefore.. a server would never make only 2.15/hr.

I've never completely understand why the tip is dependent of the bill. A plate of steak takes the same effort to bring out as a salad :confused3

[Froggie Gurl]

I didnt read the last page of the thread, but I want to add this:

When you tip a server, the server DOES NOT keep all of the tip. As far as I know, EVERY restaurant has a system where the server "tips out" other positions. Just as we are paying the server to be served, the server is paying her hostess, busser, bartender (etc). In the full service restaurant I managed, the tip out was 3% of the sale. So, if you do not tip the server, the server STILL had to "tip share". That means S/HE paid to serve YOU. I personally do not like an automatic gratuity added due to party size, but know that (as far as I know) if your service is bad, and you feel the amount of gratuity is too much, you really should be speaking with management anyway. That manager needs to know that the server did not follow out the steps of service s/he has been trained to carry out.

Here is an example from my eyes...tonight was cinco de Mayo. A group of us (5) went out for mexican for dinner. The palce was completely packed. We waited 10 minutes to be served. Our server did not speak english. It took 40 forevers to get our food, then the order was wrong. Ok, so you immediately think I shouldnt have tipped? Not so. I paid attention to my surroundings. My server was working her tail off. The establishment OBVIOUSLY did not expect the crowd they had. My server did the best she could with what she had. We took up her table for 2 hours~granted, if we'd had our food earlier, we would've left earlier...maybe. There was karaoke. There was an issue with 2 food items. She took care of it the best SHE could. my server worked for my party. We left 20% b/c we DID see her working hard and doing the best she could. Did I leave her too much? No. We "rented" her table. someoen else may have come in and taken over that table had we not camped out.

Remember to pay attention to what your server is doing.

Ok, just my two cents!

[Mackey Mouse]

Good point Froggie girl..

Since I grew with my Mom waitressing at the Pancake House, I actually hostessed and cashiered at the same restaurant, I watched firsthand how hard they worked. We use to tease my Mom as she had these skinny little legs but boy could she run with those hot meals....I also saw their disappointment when someone did not leave a tip knowing how hard they had worked.

Anyhow, a server would have to be horrible for me not to leave at least 15%.
Just the way I was brought up, they are working for tips, and probably should make more than minimum wage.

And who would change that? The government??? and then would the owners of said restaurants have to dip into their profits to pay the servers what they should be getting so that they did not have to live on tips. Also, as a previous poster said, the servers have to tip out many who depend on her to subsidize their meager salary.

I do not begrudge the servers their tips, probably as I was brought up by one. To this day, I have a tupperware bowl that my Mom saved all her silver in, remember when coins were made out of silver and not copper in between, she saved them. Those and her Kennedy coins...

I tip at least 20%. but that is my choice. Hey I tipped well in Italy recently and also when I visited London, even with the dollar in the mess it is.. just the way I was brought up.

[Nancyg56]

That's also nonsense. You pay the same price with ore without the tip.
I just can't understand why a civilized nation keep cherishing a system that's pays slavery wages to a special kind of profession

And don’t' give me the crap of free market ore that's the American way.

Actually you would probably pay more money for less service. Once the employer pays all of the expenses associated with higher wages and passes the additional expense to the customer the menu prices would be very expensive. Right now hiring additional servers may be in the owner's best interest but if the owner's overall expenses increased the ratio of staff to customer may be decreased.

[polineedyan]

which brings up a good point. It will be interesting to see if service goes up or down with the automatic tip..:surfweb:

[maxiesmom]

I think you'll get roughly the same level of service you get now, or perhaps just a little lower, for much higher prices.

I agree. Also there would be no pressing need for the waiter/waitress to be friendly, or to make sure you food was out to you promptly, or to give you any attention at all. At least now the tip is there to motivate the wait-staff to be friendly and do their job well.

[bicker]

duplicate

[polineedyan]

Here's a sample of the way things work.
One night on the job.

Hours worked :5 @ (lets say minimum is 5.00)= 25.00
Total sales:$400
Tips (included or otherwise) 65.00
Tip Out: (what tips the server shared ) 5.00

so, they take the 65.00, subtract 5.=60.00 (new tip total)
Take the 25.00, - 60.00=-35.00
This is NOT enough to cover the tax liability on the tips. The actually paycheck issued would leave the server owing.
Thats why the irs is after this industry. They WANT to know how much people make for tips, because MOST underreport. That 65 is an ACTUAL number. The server would be more likely to report 30 or less. So that their hourly will cover the taxes. And maybe leave them with a small paycheck as well.
However, like I said, the irs says, " you will report ALL of your tips. " and then made sure employers paid the minimum. It actually costs the employer less, because their contribution ends up going to the irs, not the employee.
Before, when servers claimed less, there was less liability, which meant that the employer was paying the employee, not the tax. (well, in addition to the tax for the fraudulent tip amount )

[sjaakie]

I agree. Also there would be no pressing need for the waiter/waitress to be friendly, or to make sure you food was out to you promptly, or to give you any attention at all. At least now the tip is there to motivate the wait-staff to be friendly and do their job well.

Do you really think that in countries witch have tips included the servers are working that badly?

[polineedyan]

I'll answer that. Yes. The service is probably worse. Sometimes money is the ONLY thing that keeps me nice to people, when the going gets tough. Because I want their money. Thats why I filled out the application, and why I went to work any given day.
I hate to say it, but if I knew I was making the money anyway..who really cares. Sorry. Im sure its not just me..

[Katiebell]

Hours worked :5 @ (lets say minimum is 5.00)= 25.00

Interesting figures. Except Federal minimum wage for servers is 2.15/hour. That would be only 10.75 base pay for a 5 hour shift. Does anyone know what base wage Disney servers make?

I'll answer that. Yes. The service is probably worse. Sometimes money is the ONLY thing that keeps me nice to people, when the going gets tough. Because I want their money. Thats why I filled out the application, and why I went to work any given day.
I hate to say it, but if I knew I was making the money anyway..who really cares. Sorry. Im sure its not just me..

The only experience I have with servers outside of the US was on our trip to Ireland (and in Canada, but I think they have the same tipping system we do). Aside from acting puzzled but nice if we left a tip (it was obvious we were American), all of the servers were efficient and professional, they did not provide poor service because we weren't dangling the prospect of a tip in front of them. :confused3 And even though we were in Ireland, many of our servers were from other countries: France, India, Germany, etc. So I am assuming at least some of them were servers in their home countries and provided the same level of service there.

[sjaakie]

I'll answer that. Yes. The service is probably worse. Sometimes money is the ONLY thing that keeps me nice to people, when the going gets tough. Because I want their money. Thats why I filled out the application, and why I went to work any given day.
I hate to say it, but if I knew I was making the money anyway..who really cares. Sorry. Im sure its not just me..

Wow !!!

How often have you dined outside the USA?

We go to Disney Paris on a regular base and the standard and level of waiting is much higher than in WDW without tipping.
Nobody tries to make you eat as fast as possible. If you like sitting in the California Grill for three hours nobody cares it just fine.

[nswift]

When I was 'serving', I did not have to share tips...again, I made a very good living. I would not like to see tips included ~ we felt we had an impact on our final pay, and liked that.

[polineedyan]

Wow !!!

How often have you dined outside the USA?

We go to Disney Paris on a regular base and the standard and level of waiting is much higher than in WDW without tipping.
Nobody tries to make you eat as fast as possible. If you like sitting in the California Grill for three hours nobody cares it just fine.


That's encouraging! And honestly, I havent dined outside the US in a while. Which is the reason for the choice of the word "probably."
Outside the US, where the tip is included, do you see guests leaving above the required amount? I would imagine that you do..

The theory I am proposing in my posts, is that the employer is ensuring that the employee is making minimum wage, by forcing us to pay them 12-15% of our bill, regardless of service. Its money out of OUR pockets, rather than THEIRS..
so that the food bill covers the food (in their eyes) and the service covers the service.
Its like when you get an auto bill. You have a parts total and a labor total.
By allowing people to tip what they want, your service "labor" is paid out of the food cost. (in their eyes)..And this is not easy to track..
They can get a better profit out of their food costs, by having US pay the employee...
Same food, same cost, but now the employer doesnt have to pay his people (service staff) out of his food costs. He KNOWS they made minimum wage, because of the automatic gratuity.
Im not saying its a bad way to go..

[sjaakie]

Outside the US, where the tip is included, do you see guests leaving above the required amount? I would imagine that you do..



We don't need to tip above the normal. The tip is a gift to the waiters and not something they need desparate to pay there bills

We eat on a regular base in Germany,Belgium,Switzerland,Ostria,Holland and France. I can assure you that the service in al these countries are the same and no lazy staff ore waiters ignoring you.

I deed not mean to offend you at any way. I guess there an ocean of diffrent opinions between us.:lmao:

[bicker]

Do you really think that in countries witch have tips included the servers are working that badly?I found that to be the opposite of the case, during my recent trip to Germany. I also found the price of dining out to be substantially higher than in my hometown, including gratuities. Substantially higher. Casual observation indicated to me that the service perhaps was better because there were 15%-25% more people working, and therefore each one had a much lower workload, and therefore was more easily able to provide better service.

[bavaria]

I would qualify the cost and say 'it depends'. Yes, my hotel in Monaco last week was selling an American hamburger for 25 Euros (to anyone frankly who was silly enough to order one! ;) )

But I could find perfectly wonderful meals all along the Riviera about equal to what I would pay in a similar restaurant in America. (And remember, it is difficult to just compare dollars to Euro pricing as so much varies - labour, taxes, etc)

I have great meals all the time in Germany for what I consider reasonable cost. Now, it isn't fair to compare the prices to an Applebees if they are better than Applebee quality.

But food in Germany in general is still a reasonable cost.

[bicker]

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Even my German colleagues, when visiting our offices in Massachusetts, say we've got it good here, in terms of both base food cost and restaurant costs.

[bavaria]

Yes, I definitely disagree, and most of my German colleagues who travel to America regularly agree with me! Grocery shopping in Germany is still quite cheap, even with the significant increases in costs since the start of the year.

I actually did a lengthy price comparison last week on a number of key items, and food is still cheaper to purchase in Germany. (And cheaper in Germany than in France)

[polineedyan]

I think we're all on the same page here..
But as for more help and less load..How is that accomplished? Because, the company makes sure its people are getting paid from the TIP, rather than paying the hourly. Each server has a check, a check that will have an automatic service fee. So, the employer now CAN afford to have all those servers, because they KNOW what the server is getting paid, by us, and so its no skin off the employers nose to have all those people, because he aint paying them anyway.
Like I said, we're all on the same page here. It seems to be a good system. However, if indeed, the employer is paying his people out of our pocket, I would like to see the food costs adjusted accordingly. I mean, the food doesnt cost any less with the auto gratuity..

[smidgy]

I think you'll get roughly the same level of service you get now, or perhaps just a little lower, for much higher prices.


thank you bicker!us dedicated servers will still give you great service.but the [price of your entree WILL increase! someone has to make up the difference, who will work for $4 an hour?)
I think the increase would be even higher than that, given the additional payroll costs.
bingo
Beautifully stated, and I could not agree more. Kudos! :hug:



Again I agree...but HOW would we make this change? Short of a government overthrow and total anarchy... :rotfl2:

I highlighted one particular point you made because it is very valid...people in this country are willing to accept minimum wage (which is really not enough to live on in most places) for very few jobs. Mostly students who are still living at home and don't have a lot of bills to pay -- fast food, some retail positions, etc. Just minimum wage is not enough to pay a server who works hard and does a good job -- they could get a much easier job for that kind of pay. The reason the profession attracts quality workers is because if they are GOOD, they can make a pretty good living serving...because of tips.

thank you!!! we dedicated servers CHOOSE our profession because we are "people" people . we LOVE to see other people enjoy a night out., and love to interact with such people. we know which people like to be "talked to" and entertained (i.e., share our insights into disney, give our "tips",(I meant ideas about disney) and which want to be "served well, and let, be left alone") I view my CHOSEN profession as an ART. Do you want me to interact with your little princesses and pirates? or do you want me to "butt out"? either way, you want me to have answers to your menu questions? at the restaurant I work, some people (regular customers) EXPECT me to chit chat with them. others tell me they have a reservation soon, and please, get their dinner, post haste! (God bless our cooks! we are all a TEAM. renee, the main cook where I work, is a GOD SEND!!!I don't know HOW he does it! but when I say "renee, how soon for those crab cake appetizers? he manages to JOKE and say "3 minutes and 72 seconds! .. we all laugh.... cause we're a TEAM) or I'll say "hold off on my "6 top. they're still on their salads".... so you don't have your dinner shoved infront of you while you still are working on your salads.
there is SO much more to serving you than you realize. ,multiply that by 6 tables, or 8.
why do we do it? firstly, the money CAN be GOOD. secondly, we ENJOY showing other people a GOOD TIME. OK, switch that. If you don't enjoy showing others a good time, you are in the wrong profession. It's in our blood. I can't imagine a better job than doing what I do best, but doing it at the PLACE I LOVE BEST! DISNEY!:cloud9:

[E-Rock]

I believe that tipping works for one reason and one reason only.

I don't like paying for crappy service.

We have had many meals out where our service was excellent and we tip well, someone exceptional gets more than what we averagely pay.

But we have also had many experiences where the service was shall we say... less than spectacular. In these scenarios I don't see why I should have to pay a service fee for service not properly provided. After all if you get a product from a store and it is faulty you can return it but there is no way to return bad service.

As an example, we recently dined at a Boston Pizza where our server pretty much ignored us, forgot about our food (it took like 45 minutes ot get it at a restaurant that usually serves in about 20 max and it wasn't busy). Then served it to us cold. I had to ask him about 5 times to refill my drink and even then he was so busy fooling around that he dropped in on his way back to the table (because he was flipping an empty glass in his other hand). Why would I pay for this service? Why should I have to bother calling a manager to get the service fee taken from my bill and hence extend my already painful experience?

The tipping system does (with most) encourage servers to give better service so as to earn a better end of day wage and hence works.

However on the flip side of things I do completely agree that for what is often such a thankless job for them to be paid a standard hourly wage which is in most cases under the minimum wage is unacceptable as well. Most servers probobly deserve to be earning the minimum if not slightly over.

[smidgy]

I
. Most servers probobly deserve to be earning the minimum if not slightly over.

I agreed with you on everything except this point. if all servers earned was minimum wage or slightly higher, there's no way I would take that job (and probably any other decent servers)

[Stinky_Pete]

thank you!!! we dedicated servers CHOOSE our profession because we are "people" people . we LOVE to see other people enjoy a night out., and love to interact with such people. we know which people like to be "talked to" and entertained (i.e., share our insights into disney, give our "tips",(I meant ideas about disney) and which want to be "served well, and let, be left alone") I view my CHOSEN profession as an ART. Do you want me to interact with your little princesses and pirates? or do you want me to "butt out"? either way, you want me to have answers to your menu questions? at the restaurant I work, some people (regular customers) EXPECT me to chit chat with them. others tell me they have a reservation soon, and please, get their dinner, post haste! (God bless our cooks! we are all a TEAM. renee, the main cook where I work, is a GOD SEND!!!I don't know HOW he does it! but when I say "renee, how soon for those crab cake appetizers? he manages to JOKE and say "3 minutes and 72 seconds! .. we all laugh.... cause we're a TEAM) or I'll say "hold off on my "6 top. they're still on their salads".... so you don't have your dinner shoved infront of you while you still are working on your salads.
there is SO much more to serving you than you realize. ,multiply that by 6 tables, or 8.
why do we do it? firstly, the money CAN be GOOD. secondly, we ENJOY showing other people a GOOD TIME. OK, switch that. If you don't enjoy showing others a good time, you are in the wrong profession. It's in our blood. I can't imagine a better job than doing what I do best, but doing it at the PLACE I LOVE BEST! DISNEY!:cloud9:

Thank you for your post! There are so many people who post to tipping threads here expressing pity for the "poor servers" who have to put up with so much and they work so hard and yada yada. And it's true that you do. But they act like restaurant servers are some kind of indentured servants who have no choice in employment and are "stuck" in their jobs so everyone should tip excessively out of some kind of guilt.

I appreciate you giving a "real life" perspective and pointing out that you choose to have your job because you enjoy it (and you can make a good living while you're at it).

[E-Rock]

I agreed with you on everything except this point. if all servers earned was minimum wage or slightly higher, there's no way I would take that job (and probably any other decent servers)

Perhaps you misinterpreted me. I meant that for those that are currently earning under minimum wage as an hourly rate in addition to their tips. The minimum hourly wage for servers should be no different than for anyone else and in many cases it should be at least slightly higher but still with the addition of the tips. It would be up to the establishments themselves of course to still entice better servers by opting to offer a higher hourly wage (which is always better) but the minimum for servers should not be under what the minimum for anyone else is.

[mom2my3kids]

I understand the points you are making, and many of them are good ones. Miss Manners agrees with you, and she thinks the tipping system in American restaurants is just deplorable. However, she doesn't advocate not tipping as a solution; in fact, etiquette still demands that you tip 15%-20% at a table service meal. There's no arguing that point at all -- every accepted etiquette expert agrees on that.

It's the system we have in this country. Are you proposing that servers could still legally be paid less than minimum wage, but then a mandatory service fee would be tacked on per person served? Would that mandatory service fee include say, someone just having dessert and coffee? I wouldn't mind so much paying $4.50 service charge for a full meal, but not if my total tab was only $4.50. And I think that rude or demanding patrons should have an "impossible to please" surcharge added to their bills, and maybe there should be an "especially messy toddler" fee :rotfl2:

Seriously, though, your idea of a service charge would bring us more in line with the way other countries do things. It makes the service fee mandatory, which it seems a lot of people would balk at -- but then there wouldn't be any argument about whether or not to pay it, or how much to pay. How would you propose to make this sweeping change across America changing the system as we know it?

Oh, and do you think some servers would be unhappy about the change, if they work hard to provide really spectacular service, and usually get excellent tips?


Ditto!!!

[disneygal2007]

As a ex server I got tipped pretty well. Now the pay check on the other hand was pretty sorry. FOr 2 weeks it would be like 110.00 and lower. But the tips were great. I loved my job and kinda miss it. I am a people person and it shows I would take home in a day at time 2 to 3 hundred dollars But I think it all depends where u work I was in a pizza place. Mind u I opened and got off when I wanted so maybe that had soemthing to do with it I wouldn't leave until I made a certain amount. But U know what I would do it again even if there was no tips. COPS ARE GREAT TIPPERS lol

[My2Angels]

I agree. Also there would be no pressing need for the waiter/waitress to be friendly, or to make sure you food was out to you promptly, or to give you any attention at all. At least now the tip is there to motivate the wait-staff to be friendly and do their job well.

The fact that they have a job should motivate them to do well! I am an RN and if I don't do my job well, and give good "customer" service.....I don't have a job anymore!!!!

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

The fact that they have a job should motivate them to do well! I am an RN and if I don't do my job well, and give good "customer" service.....I don't have a job anymore!!!!


You didn't "choose" a career that depends on tips & you knew that when you had to make a career decision.

Good service IMHO = hefty tips.

[hansel1]

As a ex server I got tipped pretty well. Now the pay check on the other hand was pretty sorry. FOr 2 weeks it would be like 110.00 and lower. But the tips were great. I loved my job and kinda miss it. I am a people person and it shows I would take home in a day at time 2 to 3 hundred dollars But I think it all depends where u work I was in a pizza place. Mind u I opened and got off when I wanted so maybe that had soemthing to do with it I wouldn't leave until I made a certain amount. But U know what I would do it again even if there was no tips. COPS ARE GREAT TIPPERS lol

This sounds pretty much on the money!

My wife's family owns a couple of pizza and rib restuarants. When my wife was a server she would bring home more than $100 a night on a regular basis. Working a 5 hour shift that is $20 an hour, not including her hourly wage. There was no sharing tips or tipping out at the end of the night. You get what you can make. Her family pays servers $3.75 per hour and does not include tips in that amount like some restaurants.

Now that she manages both restaurants, she no longer recieves tips. But all her servers make around $100 a night, more on friday and saturdays. They have never complained about their hourly wages because they consider that amount to be what they would pay in taxes and SSA wages. Anything they actually get is a bonus.

[a_sailor's_wife]

I used to wait tables my junior year of high school on until my junior year of college. I see your point in not wanting to tip those who do poorly when it comes to serving you, but what about those who bust their rear ends to do a good job? I was paid a measly $2.13 an hour. I depended on those tips to pay for my car, gas, and living expenses, but because I depended on them I wanted to give each customer great service. You must also think of some of the people a server might come across. I've had my fair share of rude and harrassing ones. I've had people whistle at me like I was a dog and I still gave them the bets service I could. Then I would be left only a few pennies.

I loved waiting tables. I brought home good money most nights around $150 per night during the week and about $300 on Friday and Saturday nights. However, if there was to be a standard fee more than likely the owner of the resturant would take a share out of that before the server even saw it. Or if the owner had to pay each server instead of the server depending on tips, I bet you wouldn't have good service at most places.

I always base my tips off of the service that was given. If my drink was empty more than once or I had to ask for a refill, it was pretty much a given that you wouldn't get much. But if you keep my drinks filled and some around every so often to make sure I need nothing else and don't forget to put my order in you'll be getting around 25-30% tip. Also, keep in mind that it's always under a server's control. It's possible that the kitchen staff that night was crummy.

[dobball23]

Why do we tip based on price of the food? Is it any harder for a server to bring out a $20 steak than it is for a server to bring out an $11 chicken sandwich. That is something I have never been able to figure out.

Or, if I order a $2.00 soda vs. a free water, my tip would be $0.30 higher (at 15%) and the server has not done any additional work.

That just doesn't make sense...

[catne]

I love these threads...have spent many an hour just watching the showpopcorn::

I do tip, gladly...I just figure I'm buying more Magic...pixiedust:

[blugill13]

Why do we tip based on price of the food? Is it any harder for a server to bring out a $20 steak than it is for a server to bring out an $11 chicken sandwich. That is something I have never been able to figure out.

Or, if I order a $2.00 soda vs. a free water, my tip would be $0.30 higher (at 15%) and the server has not done any additional work.

That just doesn't make sense...



ahhhh but you dont tip on the free water do you? but I bet you expect it to come in a timely manner and you want it refilled before it gets 1/2 empty.

There are a lot of other things a servers going to do other than bring you out food.

[mpls_mm]

Why do we tip based on price of the food? Is it any harder for a server to bring out a $20 steak than it is for a server to bring out an $11 chicken sandwich. That is something I have never been able to figure out.

Or, if I order a $2.00 soda vs. a free water, my tip would be $0.30 higher (at 15%) and the server has not done any additional work.

That just doesn't make sense...

LOL, I bet I made more as a Hooters waitress than most fine dining servers. So the price of the meal doesn't have everything to do with it.

[smidgy]

Thank you for your post! There are so many people who post to tipping threads here expressing pity for the "poor servers" who have to put up with so much and they work so hard and yada yada. And it's true that you do. But they act like restaurant servers are some kind of indentured servants who have no choice in employment and are "stuck" in their jobs so everyone should tip excessively out of some kind of guilt.

I appreciate you giving a "real life" perspective and pointing out that you choose to have your job because you enjoy it (and you can make a good living while you're at it).

thanks to you too!I guess it can be a "competitive" profession, which is GOOD for those of us who are good at it!

Perhaps you misinterpreted me. I meant that for those that are currently earning under minimum wage as an hourly rate in addition to their tips. The minimum hourly wage for servers should be no different than for anyone else and in many cases it should be at least slightly higher but still with the addition of the tips. It would be up to the establishments themselves of course to still entice better servers by opting to offer a higher hourly wage (which is always better) but the minimum for servers should not be under what the minimum for anyone else is.

you're right! I DID misunderstand you. and there are many nights (like tonight) where it was slow and I basically worked for $4 an hour! It would be great if I was paid at least minimum wage on slower nights, cause I still worked! (side work, etc) but, boy, did I kick butt (allowed, mods?) on Mother's day!

[smidgy]

as soon as we can get a decent amount for our home here in Illinois, we are Florida bound!!! and my dream job? either a server or bartender at Disney!!!!:banana: and I PROMISE to give wonderful service!!!!:(whatever the tip) woohoo: :cloud9:

[mom2my3kids]

as soon as we can get a decent amount for our home here in Illinois, we are Florida bound!!! and my dream job? either a server or bartender at Disney!!!!:banana: and I PROMISE to give wonderful service!!!!:(whatever the tip) woohoo: :cloud9:


Kidding aside, I think everyone should have to serve for a month once in their lives..:dance3:

[KorieDWnut]

That's also nonsense. You pay the same price with ore without the tip.
I just can't understand why a civilized nation keep cherishing a system that's pays slavery wages to a special kind of profession

And don’t' give me the crap of free market ore that's the American way.

Because..I make way more waitressing my 4 six hour shifts than my husband who works 6 days a week, for 8 hours a day.

There is no WAY I would waitress if there was not a tipping system. No way. I would not work for hourly pay unless it was paying me at least 20 dollars an hour.

[KorieDWnut]

I agree with this. I do not think it makes a difference in service whether the tip is included or not. A good server is a good server.

I think most servers in the US would be thrilled if they were paid a guaranteed hourly wage equal to even 15% of the total sales.

Of course, that could cause a little grief with the customer that they are not expecting.

The 15%-18% cost would be passed on to them through either a service charge or through increased food/beverage costs. This happens in countries that do not expect tipped service but it has been happening so long, people may or may not realize it. The resteraunts are not going to eat that cost out of the kindness of their hearts.

Also, tipping in itself, gives the customer a greater sense of control over the service they receive. Whether that be imaginary or real.

I most certainly would NOT like a gauranteed hourly wage. Not unless I was ALSO receivign tips. Tips =CASH on hand when I walk out the door. Servers do what they do for the cash. I do not want to wait a whole week, or in some cases, 2 weeks to get paid. Nope. No thanks. I will happily get tips.

[KorieDWnut]

[QUOTE=Froggie Gurl;24943001]I didnt read the last page of the thread, but I want to add this:

When you tip a server, the server DOES NOT keep all of the tip. As far as I know, EVERY restaurant has a system where the server "tips out" other positions. QUOTE]


I just wanted to say that this ISN'T always true.
Where I work now, I do not tip ANYONE. My place is so small it is just me, another waitress, 2 cooks and a dishwasher. There is no bar as it is a BYOB place, so no bartender, no bus people. I get to keep 100% of my tips.

[eeyoresnr]

Kidding aside, I think everyone should have to serve for a month once in their lives..:dance3:

a week would probably be enough;)

[eeyoresnr]

Why do we tip based on price of the food? Is it any harder for a server to bring out a $20 steak than it is for a server to bring out an $11 chicken sandwich. That is something I have never been able to figure out.

Or, if I order a $2.00 soda vs. a free water, my tip would be $0.30 higher (at 15%) and the server has not done any additional work.

That just doesn't make sense...


try telling that to the IRS

[Tricia1972]

Interesting figures. Except Federal minimum wage for servers is 2.15/hour. That would be only 10.75 base pay for a 5 hour shift. Does anyone know what base wage Disney servers make?

Disney servers make a base wage of $3.80 as of the end of last year. Their base wage will be $3.95 at the end of this year and then $4.10 as of 12/27/2009.

[Stinky_Pete]

Why do we tip based on price of the food? Is it any harder for a server to bring out a $20 steak than it is for a server to bring out an $11 chicken sandwich. That is something I have never been able to figure out.

Or, if I order a $2.00 soda vs. a free water, my tip would be $0.30 higher (at 15%) and the server has not done any additional work.

That just doesn't make sense...

It may not be any more "work" on the servers' part but the added incentive of more money in their pockets may motivate them try to get your check total up, which generally benefits the restaurant too. That's why many servers love customers like me who will order a premium martini or two with dinner vs. just a soda or free water - they know they're going to make more money from me.

[Nancyg56]

[quote=Froggie Gurl;24943001]I didnt read the last page of the thread, but I want to add this:

When you tip a server, the server DOES NOT keep all of the tip. As far as I know, EVERY restaurant has a system where the server "tips out" other positions. QUOTE]


I just wanted to say that this ISN'T always true.
Where I work now, I do not tip ANYONE. My place is so small it is just me, another waitress, 2 cooks and a dishwasher. There is no bar as it is a BYOB place, so no bartender, no bus people. I get to keep 100% of my tips.

You are correct, this is not always the case. If you pay attention to the staffing it is generally pretty easy to tell which establishments tip out. If you get drinks from the bar, if there are food runners, if there are bus people then the server is most likely tipping for the help that they receive on your behalf. In many cases the money is allocated before the server is paid.

[fey_spirit]

Just because we have used a system for the last sixty years or so doesn't mean that the system works - just that we've been using it. If it was working all that well there wouldn't be so much debate and contention surrounding this system.


It is a system that has worked well for, oh lets say, the last 60 years or so. Its traditional and expected in our society. Nothing is going to change that.

I am somewhat sick of the tipping issue as well. If you want to eat at a sit down resteraunt and be served, either tip or go eat at a counter service.

[bicker]

It does mean that it works. It may or may not satisfy any individual's personal preferences, but that's non-sequitur.

[SanFranciscan]

Sometimes I skip over the threads about tipping because they get so flame-likely. Yet I do see the problems tipping causes so I think we need some sort of reform. I just don't know what.

If you are against tipping on general principle, someplace where is it officially not allowed is the way to go of course. I remember reading that that is the way it works at Club Med.

I am also concerned that the tipping system may be adding to the reputation of U.S. residents for rudeness. I haven't waited tables in years, but I remember working with a young server who had waited tables for three years in Ireland. She gave up after less than five months in the U.S., and I saw her leave the floor in tears of frustration one night about a month earlier. She was allowed to return to work because she was so gracious that she was very well liked by co-workers. I remember her be always willing to help out refilling cups and glasses in sections where she herself had no customers if things slowed down in her station.

If we are being conditioned to believe that servers are our personal slaves to treat any way we want because they are relying upon our tips, it is not hard to figure out where the "Ugly American" generalization came from. Once that view is planted into our subconscious, we are going to take it everywhere we go.

The question of whether doing away with the tipping system would make the servers worse has been brought up here. That's a legitimate question. However, if a diner who doesn't want to pay is picking a fight with the server to justify skipping out cheap, that cheapens my experience as a diner. Does keeping the tipping system the way it is therefore create a hostile environment for both the servers and fair-minded customers?

[Pumbaa_]

This has nothing to do with DDP at this point, time to move on