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kokomos
04-15-2008, 09:19 PM
My dd is 8th grade and her science teacher has told her that man is evolved from ape and there is no God.
I dont want to get a religious debate started but im wondering if this is normal way science is tought in public school or just the teacher?
Thanks
Wanda

averysmom
04-15-2008, 09:25 PM
While I can't imagine any of my faculty saying there is no God - yikes the phonecalls would go on for days:scared1: , our science curriculum is evolution - they study Darwin and Mendel. I can't imagine it would be any different in a public school here - but I would totally write a pleasantly worded note enquiring about the no God comment. It could very well be something that wasn't said - miscommunication happens a lot b/t home and school - and if it WAS said, I would write a much stronger letter to the teacher AND the principal letting them know that that kind of statment is NOT appropriate - and maybe even encourage the teacher to apologise:confused3

kokomos
04-15-2008, 09:43 PM
The teacher is atheist . She told the kids she dont beleve in Gold and keep the Sunday school at home or church. Not just rumors she has mentioned it a couple of times.
This is the US and freedom to religion is part of it. Im sure she will come in contact with many people who dont believe. I guess I wasnt expecting it to come from the teacher.
She doesnt believe what the teacher has said but it also causes her to think her teacher is lying about other thing she is trying to teach.

Aliceacc
04-16-2008, 04:29 AM
Absolutely follow up on this. First with the teacher, then if necessary with the Principal.

She is allowed to be an athiest. She is not allowed to present her beliefs (or non-beliefs) as fact to a bunch of impressionable kids.

Suzanna1973
04-16-2008, 05:39 AM
When I was in 8th grade, we learned in science how the universe was created by the Big Bang Theory. I questioned it to the teacher by stating I had learned that God had created the universe. He came to my desk in a whisper and stated, " I believe so too, but unfortunately I have to teach this theory." I believe every child has to learn the big bang theory and about evolution but it doesn't give the teacher the right to state that there is no God. Go talk to the principal.

mommyof2princesses
04-16-2008, 05:39 AM
That is horrible to tell children. She has no right to tell them her beliefs. And the kids have the right to discuss God if they want to.

Bethy Lou
04-16-2008, 06:32 AM
Our school teaches evolution as a theory and keeps religion out of it, at least that is how it is supposed to be. Last year my daughter's teacher said that evolution was a lie and that dinosaurs and humans lived together. As a teacher myself I always try to keep my personal opinions out of things, as that is how we are taught to do as professionals, unfortunately some teachers are unable to do that.

DawnM
04-16-2008, 06:34 AM
I am sure you have already had a talk with your child about this. I would take this as a strong opportunity to talk about differing opinions and how to respond to varying beliefs/ideas.

I don't think I would make the leap that I can't trust her (or she is lying) about other things.....she is simply coming at things from a particular bent/ideology.

Also, I would contact the school and tell them in a polite/matter of fact way....not in an offended way.....

The teacher SHOULD respect students' ideology.

Dawn

The teacher is atheist . She told the kids she dont beleve in Gold and keep the Sunday school at home or church. Not just rumors she has mentioned it a couple of times.
This is the US and freedom to religion is part of it. Im sure she will come in contact with many people who dont believe. I guess I wasnt expecting it to come from the teacher.
She doesnt believe what the teacher has said but it also causes her to think her teacher is lying about other thing she is trying to teach.

brymolmom
04-16-2008, 06:44 AM
This is interesting. I am a Catholic but depending on the way it was presented, I would see it as a great opportunity to have a discussion with my child, but I wouldn't take action with the school. Like I said though, UNLESS it was presented in a 'I can't believe you believe in God - what a crock!' - type way - THEN I WOULD. Assuming (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the teacher here, and assuming that he is a professional and good teacher, since I wasn't in the room) that the teacher presented the scientific theory and followed it up with something along the lines of 'I know that some of you were taught about another theory involving God, but leave those theories at home as we are learning the scientific theory here' - I wouldn't have a problem with it. Sending my child to a public school I expect them to be taught to leave their religious beliefs outside of the classroom (obviously, they always carry them inside and should act in the moral way they are taught) - and to learn the science of it instead.

So, initially this doesn't cause me any real alarm, but I would love to be a fly on the wall to see exactly how the teacher is stating this....

moxiecola
04-16-2008, 06:53 AM
Evolution is a "theory." As stated in every text book and therefore should not be touted by any teacher as FACT. God should be left out of the equation since society has chosen to remove him from the school system. The teacher should have no opinion on him either way. It is not her place to indoctrinate these kids with her beliefs, it is ethically and morally wrong. I would absolutely bypass her all together and take it up with the principal immediately. There's no way I would allow someone who is basically a stranger to fill my kid's head with garbage and confuse them.

PrincessRora
04-16-2008, 06:59 AM
I had a teacher who was similar to that, but opposite. She taught us the evolution theory, and then told us to forget it because it was all completely false and that we needed to believe in God and Jesus or we were going to go to hell. I was 13; my mom is Jewish and dad is Catholic, I had yet to even start to think of what I believed in. I wish I had reported her. Teachers should not be forcing their beliefs on students, no matter which way the belief is going.
Also, if you're going to teach, teach it right. I'm a biology major now at a 4 year university and I'll be graduating in May. You can bet I've taken several different courses on Evolution and well, what she taught your daughter isn't actually the real evolution theory. Evolution Theory theorizes that Man and Apes evolved from a common ancestor. WE are not decended from Apes or Monkeys. Just thought I might point that out because that's where people who actually believe in the evolutionary theory get hit. If they claim they're descended from Monkeys then yes, that's false. But if they say there's a common ancestory, well, so far we haven't been able to prove that's false. The same way people haven't been able to prove God creating Adam and Eve is false.
Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and a public school should not have teachers forcing their beliefs on individuals.

ok... done now. lol

RMulieri
04-16-2008, 07:05 AM
unfortunatley,most schools only teach evolution ( unless catholic school or other religious eduation)But the teacher was way off telling your child there is no god.Not their place to do that.Sorry.

Emma's Dad
04-16-2008, 07:13 AM
Absolutely follow up on this. First with the teacher, then if necessary with the Principal.

She is allowed to be an athiest. She is not allowed to present her beliefs (or non-beliefs) as fact to a bunch of impressionable kids.

I'm in complete agreement with Aliceacc on this one. While the school systems are there to teach the "theories" of how the universe began and how man was created, teachers cannot and should not be imposing their own religious beliefs while teaching.

That being said, I would definitely approach the teacher one-on-one first to discuss her side of what happened and go from there. I would go to the principal if the situation could not be resolved with a one-on-one with the teacher.

rt2dz
04-16-2008, 07:49 AM
Wow. Shame on that teacher.

First, I'd take the opportunity to use it as an opening to discuss respecting others beliefs and the variety of them out there. I would let your DD know that it is a theory, and with theory there comes belief. I would let your DD know that while the teacher may not believe in this theory, much of what she teaches is fact and not a lie.

Then, I would send a note to the teacher and/or principal letting them know that you think religion, regardless of what it is, should be respected. I, personally, don't have a problem with any and every religion in the classroom provided it is in an objective manner and not a push for one or the other. I would let the teacher know that you expect a theory to be taught as a viable theory regardless, including the possibility it could be wrong.

That said, I believe in God and in evolution. We do not know how God created the world and/or man. We do not know if God views days/time in the same way we do. Additionally, as a pp pointed out, evolution has been twisted in common thought into something it is not, which is why it really should be taught. Just my opinion.

disney_family_1247
04-16-2008, 09:20 AM
To be more accurate, humans (we're not all "man") and apes evolved from a common ancestor :teacher:

To tell a student that there is no God is way out of line. I guess if the teacher said that she didn't believe in God, then that was okay.

surfergirl602
04-16-2008, 09:29 AM
I remember studying evolution etc, but we were told that we could believe whatever we wanted, and had to write our own essay on how we think the earth evolved. Whether religeous, or way out there with balls of fire erupting from the sun or space, whatever - all were accepted.

barkley
04-16-2008, 09:38 AM
Evolution is a "theory." As stated in every text book and therefore should not be touted by any teacher as FACT. God should be left out of the equation since society has chosen to remove him from the school system. The teacher should have no opinion on him either way. It is not her place to indoctrinate these kids with her beliefs, it is ethically and morally wrong. I would absolutely bypass her all together and take it up with the principal immediately. There's no way I would allow someone who is basically a stranger to fill my kid's head with garbage and confuse them.


exactly-evolution is a theory, as is creationism-neither have been proven utilizing the scientific method.

i was curious with how my children, who attend a christian based private school would be educated on this topic so i purposely snagged dd's science book the year this was being covered extensivly. i was pleased that while the book is christian in character, the publishers and authors took the avenue of first reviewing the scientific method and then applying it to the concept. both evolution and creation (including intellegent design) were reviewed in detail, and then to each the scientific method were applied. the book dealt with educating the kids about each theory and then concluded with a discussion of why christians for the most part support creationism, but reminded the learner that for the pure basis of science-all 3 theories were important to be aware of.

i would'nt have a problem with a public school teaching purely evolution but i don't see the necessity of a teacher publicly stating their own religious beliefs or lack thereof. if a student brought up a question in class about creationism all the teacher would have to do is advise that the curriculum does not cover that and if they need to explore that independantly of their class.

Princess_Michelle
04-16-2008, 09:48 AM
That said, I believe in God and in evolution. We do not know how God created the world and/or man. We do not know if God views days/time in the same way we do. Additionally, as a pp pointed out, evolution has been twisted in common thought into something it is not, which is why it really should be taught. Just my opinion.

Me TOO!!!!! I was not raised in a religous household AT ALL, but my family did identify ourselves as Christian, and we believed in God, so my mom did send us to VBS and church when we were little. Even as a child, it made absolute perfect sense to me that God created the world and everything in it by way of Evolution. I seriously can't even understand how everyone else doesn't see that... :confused3

As I have gotten older, and learned more about both God and Evolution/Science, that theory has just gotten so much more valid to me. All I have to do is look at the world around me and see how perfectly everything exists together. I can't think of any ONE thing right now. :idea: But it seems everyday I see something IRL or on TV about the way the world works and I just think....How in the world can anyone possibly believe that this is all a big coincidence and wasn't designed that way?????

Anyways, I'm rambling, but I just like it when I find others who believe that way too :)

And to OP, I would be upset if a teacher said that to my kid.... but that's also one of the many reasons why my kid will never step foot in a public school....:rotfl: , so maybe my opinion doesn't count. :rolleyes1

mickey&minniealways
04-16-2008, 11:15 AM
Everyone's opinion counts. But they are just that opinions. What that particular teacher said was her opinion. It is important for our children to realize that there are othere beliefs than our own and that they will not always go with our own. If indeed she did state it as a fact she should be reportded. It is important to learn the theory of evolution as well as others. My father always taught us that this was the sign of a well rounded person. He also felt that in order to have a good understanding of others you also needed to understand their beliefs. He was a scientist, a microbiologist to be exact, Catholic and a very wise man. He believed in evolution and creationism. I realize that many think that you can't believe in both but in reality you can. We were taught that the Bible is a book written by people. The story of creation is a way to teach the story of how we were made. 7 days does not necesarily mean 7 exact days. That does not make the story any less valid nor the lessons learned. Maybe just a way to explain it as to be understood. As Jesus taught by using stories in his teachings. For those who say he is a myth that is a false statement. He was a real historical figure. Weather or not you believe he is the son of God and rose from the dead is your own decision. These are the things that were taught to me as a child and how I raise my own children. Now I know I am going to get flack from others for what I have said. To bad. I have stateded my opininons and they are not going to be the same as everyone elses but you are not going to change them after 47 years. It is also how I will teach my children along with teaching them to respect the views of others. However if someone wants to discuss this further these boards are probably not the right place.

xoprincessmomxo
04-16-2008, 03:39 PM
I am suprised to see so many experiences with teachers who were against teaching the theory of evolution. When I was in high school, our science teacher spent one class period talking about the "lies" of evolution and how he was forced to teach this, even though it was a crock and creationism was the only way. Now, my parents were Christian, but they also knew the need for proper education as my mother was a teacher before she had kids. She was not very happy about it, but it gave us a great discussion at home on our beliefs and science and how the two relate to one another. If you are a science teacher, than it is your job to teach...SCIENCE! That would be like a history teacher skipping over World War II because it was "unpleasant" to talk about. :confused3

Schmeck
04-16-2008, 09:45 PM
My dd is 8th grade and her science teacher has told her that man is evolved from ape and there is no God.
I dont want to get a religious debate started but im wondering if this is normal way science is tought in public school or just the teacher?
Thanks
Wanda

I'm curious - how was it taught to you when you were in school? Are you still living in the same region where you grew up? Did you attend public school? Do you live in a very religious region, or more secular? There are all types of regions in the USA, and each state can set its own curriculum, as can each district sometimes too. I think the evolution theory is played more strongly up north, and less heavily in the south - anyone else agree/disagree?

I am not a Christian, but I believe in god and evolution - who else but god would be able to set such a creative thing into motion?

DevilDuckie
04-16-2008, 10:13 PM
My dd is 8th grade and her science teacher has told her that man is evolved from ape and there is no God.
I dont want to get a religious debate started but im wondering if this is normal way science is tought in public school or just the teacher?
Thanks
Wanda

Perhaps the appropraite response would be to ask the teacher if she has ever *read* Darwin's work. See, he says that man evolved from a common (and still undiscovered) ancestor with the ape, not directly from the ape. If she's going to insist on teaching the THEORY of evolution as proven fact she ought to get it right.

Fortunately an 8th grader is old enough to understand that she has to be respectful but does not have to believe atheism no matter what class it is preached in.

kokomos
04-16-2008, 10:47 PM
I'm curious - how was it taught to you when you were in school? Are you still living in the same region where you grew up? Did you attend public school? Do you live in a very religious region, or more secular? There are all types of regions in the USA, and each state can set its own curriculum, as can each district sometimes too. I think the evolution theory is played more strongly up north, and less heavily in the south - anyone else agree/disagree?

I am not a Christian, but I believe in god and evolution - who else but god would be able to set such a creative thing into motion?



She is in the same school I attended and yes we are in the south. ( church on every corner) The teacher is not from this region.
The evolution was taught lightly when I was in school. I dont even remember if there were test on it. Or I just paid no attention which is very likely. I guess the point of this thread was more about the teacher telling the kids there no God. Wanting to know if most science teachers teach that as part of science or if she was just sharing her personal belief.

stelle1966
04-17-2008, 01:59 AM
Absolutely follow up on this. First with the teacher, then if necessary with the Principal.

She is allowed to be an athiest. She is not allowed to present her beliefs (or non-beliefs) as fact to a bunch of impressionable kids.

But you are??

Happiness is a warm gun.

meandtheguys2
04-17-2008, 05:49 AM
But you are??

Happiness is a warm gun.

3 posts, and already offensive. Might be a record! :snooty:

Kickapoo Joie Juice
04-17-2008, 07:43 AM
My dd is 8th grade and her science teacher has told her that man is evolved from ape and there is no God.
I dont want to get a religious debate started but im wondering if this is normal way science is tought in public school or just the teacher?
Thanks
Wanda

I think this is a good teaching opportunity for you with your daughter. I try and use unfortunate incidents like this to my advantage by asking my kids what they think about what was said, then presenting them with opinions on both sides, and then talking about what we would do next given the teacher's proclivities towards her own brand of theology.

I'd also go to the principal and the superintendant of schools and make sure that teacher is quite thoroughly spanked. She's teaching science, not theology. She is welcome to say "I THINK there is no God" in the privacy of her own home.

If she's teaching the evolutionary theory and kids ask her about god, she needs to say "I am teaching scientific theory, this is different from theology."

I am absolutely fine with my kids being taught scientific theories, because they more they learn, the more they understand the world around them, and with better understanding comes a higher consciousness and better connection with faith. In my opinion, of course...

Kickapoo Joie Juice
04-17-2008, 07:48 AM
Everyone's opinion counts. But they are just that opinions. What that particular teacher said was her opinion.

When a teacher presents his/her opinion he/she MUST preface it as such, as in, "I THINK there is no God", not "There is no God".

Because if you don't make it very clear that it's just some belief you hold, not what you are teaching, then kids may not understand the difference.

Opinions are like rectal apetures, everyone's got them.

Teaching fact to the extent we understand it, not spewing opinion, is what a good teacher does.

Camno's Mama
04-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Everyone's opinion counts. But they are just that opinions. What that particular teacher said was her opinion. It is important for our children to realize that there are othere beliefs than our own and that they will not always go with our own. If indeed she did state it as a fact she should be reportded. It is important to learn the theory of evolution as well as others. My father always taught us that this was the sign of a well rounded person. He also felt that in order to have a good understanding of others you also needed to understand their beliefs. He was a scientist, a microbiologist to be exact, Catholic and a very wise man. He believed in evolution and creationism. I realize that many think that you can't believe in both but in reality you can. We were taught that the Bible is a book written by people. The story of creation is a way to teach the story of how we were made. 7 days does not necesarily mean 7 exact days. That does not make the story any less valid nor the lessons learned. Maybe just a way to explain it as to be understood. As Jesus taught by using stories in his teachings. For those who say he is a myth that is a false statement. He was a real historical figure. Weather or not you believe he is the son of God and rose from the dead is your own decision. These are the things that were taught to me as a child and how I raise my own children. Now I know I am going to get flack from others for what I have said. To bad. I have stateded my opininons and they are not going to be the same as everyone elses but you are not going to change them after 47 years. It is also how I will teach my children along with teaching them to respect the views of others. However if someone wants to discuss this further these boards are probably not the right place.

I agree with what you said, as a whole. I just think public school teachers are held to different standards when it comes to their students.

I don't think it's an issue that the teacher has her opinions...it's all about how you present them. Clearly, this kid came home with the impression that this teacher says that there is no God. She needed to make it more obvious that it is only her opinion, and everyone is entitled to that. Good teaching moment for her.

That being said, and I am a teacher, I don't believe she should offer her opinion, either way. As a teacher in the public school system, you are taught not to do that. Teach in a private school if that's your thing. Religion is a hot button topic, and it's not the place of the public school system to teach it, one way or another. I have friends who's students have asked during lessons like this, and they choose to answer with the "This is only my opinion..." type of thing.

Teachers have to deal with this stuff all the time. You don't want to be caught out in public drunk by one of your student's parents. You have to watch what you wear around your students. You shouldn't be talking about your unhappy marriage with your students and so on. This is just one of those things.

jenm2878
04-17-2008, 01:36 PM
My teacher told us that the school cirriculum (sp?) required him to teach the big-bang theory and evolution, but to talk to our parents or pastor if we wanted to ask questions about creationism. He left it at that.

Aliceacc
04-17-2008, 02:31 PM
3 posts, and already offensive. Might be a record! :snooty:

Thanks!!

That was pretty much my take on it, and why it didn't merit a reply from me.

Schmeck
04-17-2008, 02:46 PM
As Jesus taught by using stories in his teachings. For those who say he is a myth that is a false statement. He was a real historical figure.

Is there an written record of Jesus during his lifetime? I mean, actually written when he was alive, not told generations later. I thought that there were a few sketchy ones, but nothing 100% proof?

To the OP, have you talked to anyone else in your child's class, to make sure this is exactly what the teacher said? Sometimes kids get things messed up that way, especially when it's something a bit controversial - can you talk to another parent, or to another child and see what they think?

DisneyBrat
04-17-2008, 02:47 PM
I thought this poem to fit this situation. Someone sent it to me the other day. Maybe your daughter can read this to her teacher :lmao:


New Pledge of Allegiance :thumbsup2

Since the Pledge of Allegiance and
The Lord's Prayer
Are not allowed in most
Public schools anymore
Because the word 'God' is mentioned....
A student in Arizona wrote this poem

NEW School prayer :

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen

I am thankful I grew up in a christian home and went to a christian school so I didn't have to worry like kids do now. If it were me I would be at the school board demanding them to reprimand this teacher. I would even be tempted to get the news crew involved... Good luck!

Snow Shoe
04-17-2008, 06:16 PM
I am a Southern Baptist and yes there is a God!

Schmeck
04-18-2008, 05:42 AM
I thought this poem to fit this situation. Someone sent it to me the other day. Maybe your daughter can read this to her teacher :lmao:


New Pledge of Allegiance :thumbsup2

Since the Pledge of Allegiance and
The Lord's Prayer
Are not allowed in most
Public schools anymore
Because the word 'God' is mentioned....
A student in Arizona wrote this poem

NEW School prayer :

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks..
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen

I am thankful I grew up in a christian home and went to a christian school so I didn't have to worry like kids do now. If it were me I would be at the school board demanding them to reprimand this teacher. I would even be tempted to get the news crew involved... Good luck!

My children do not worry about being in a public school - because we know that you don't have to be a christian to be a fantastic, spiritual person. And we can be very tolerant too!

Of course, people are free to pray in schools - they just cannot be directed by the teacher to pray in any one form or other. The whole school should not be directed in prayer by any one religion, as that stomps on our freedom of religion. Displays of one religion without equal space to other religions in a public school also follows this example.

I love how the christian propaganda machine works...

tzolkin
04-18-2008, 08:19 AM
i am christian and that poem is offensive on so many levels.

i've read it before. the irony is how it even admits it's judgmental, but believes that is appropriate.

Schmeck
04-18-2008, 09:35 PM
I have a question -

When a lot of politicians and/or 'moral majority' types make a big fuss about "being christian", are they relating to any one christian religion, or are they lumping them all together? Is there just one christian religion? I thought that there were many, but when it gets political, it seems there is only one...

I mean, think about the polygamous sect in the news now - aren't they christians?

nicolemomof4cuties
04-18-2008, 10:06 PM
I would definitly set up a meeting with the principal and the teacher together. I would definitly not want to talk to the teacher alone as I do not want to know what would fly out of my mouth. I DO know that if she had told MY DD that there was no God that she would have had a total cow right there in class. My oldest DD reads her Bible for about 45 minutes a day for FUN. and no I am not kidding. She is a little on the strange side for a 7 year old LOL! But hey, I wish that we all had that kind of zeal for the lord ya' know? Good luck with your DD's situation!

allison443
04-18-2008, 10:17 PM
i am christian and that poem is offensive on so many levels.

i've read it before. the irony is how it even admits it's judgmental, but believes that is appropriate.

I agree. Do people still really think the public schools should be teaching the Bible and saying the Lord's Prayer? :confused3

DevilDuckie
04-19-2008, 12:10 AM
Is there an written record of Jesus during his lifetime? I mean, actually written when he was alive, not told generations later. I thought that there were a few sketchy ones, but nothing 100% proof?




While the most common materials for writing in that time and place were not particularly durable (making a continuous record spotty) historians and scholars are generally in agreement that the records over the next two centuries are consistent enough to prove that Christ lived, taught, and died as recorded in the Bible. The Christmas story is believed to trace back to His lifetime- not that it is proveable, just that they are fairly certain it was told during His life.

My notes and citations from that particular history class are all in storage or I'd give you a more scholarly account with references. Best I can do with what I've got.

Schmeck
04-19-2008, 05:53 AM
While the most common materials for writing in that time and place were not particularly durable (making a continuous record spotty) historians and scholars are generally in agreement that the records over the next two centuries are consistent enough to prove that Christ lived, taught, and died as recorded in the Bible. The Christmas story is believed to trace back to His lifetime- not that it is proveable, just that they are fairly certain it was told during His life.

My notes and citations from that particular history class are all in storage or I'd give you a more scholarly account with references. Best I can do with what I've got.

But what I've been able to find shows the exact opposite - that there is no consistency at all about Jesus (which was actually a bit of a common name, so there was not just one man named Jesus at that time) and he doesn't appear in any writings until 2 centuries after he was supposedly alive. Even in the bible, the gospels conflict.

JodyLynC
04-19-2008, 08:00 AM
Bad poem. Very offensive. :sad2:

JodyLynC
04-19-2008, 08:04 AM
But what I've been able to find shows the exact opposite - that there is no consistency at all about Jesus (which was actually a bit of a common name, so there was not just one man named Jesus at that time) and he doesn't appear in any writings until 2 centuries after he was supposedly alive. Even in the bible, the gospels conflict.

Personally I believe that a man named Jesus tried to preach love and peace during a very turbulent time. I believe that this man was later deified by well intentioned people that wanted to keep his ideas alive. I also believe that as time went on, people began twisting his words of love, tolerance, and peace to suit their own theology.

JMHO:hippie:

Camno's Mama
04-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Bad poem. Very offensive. :sad2:

I totally agree. I'm not sure why anyone would think that it supports the theory that Christians are tolerant or loving people. I'm not even sure I believe that a kid wrote that.

Kickapoo Joie Juice
04-19-2008, 12:43 PM
I have a question -

When a lot of politicians and/or 'moral majority' types make a big fuss about "being christian", are they relating to any one christian religion, or are they lumping them all together? Is there just one christian religion? I thought that there were many, but when it gets political, it seems there is only one...

I mean, think about the polygamous sect in the news now - aren't they christians?

Dude, major can of worms there.

A lot of Christians think their particular brand of christianity is the ONLY "real" one. Most of the rest of us think they're kooks. FWIW, if somebody identifies themselves as a christian and you hear the capital C in there, there's a good chance they're evangelical and are looking down their noses at anybody who's not them, as in, "we're Christian and since our brand is the only real Christianity out there I don't need to further identify myself" . If somebody identifies themselves as say, Presbyterian or Catholic or Lutheran without saying they're a christian, then it's not an evangelical branch of christianity.

If they're holding snakes, um, well, time to run!

Of course, this is my opinion of the state of Christianity, I feel semi-qualified to opine, as I'm one of the "frozen chosen" (presbyterian)...

Momvic5
04-19-2008, 01:35 PM
I have a question -

When a lot of politicians and/or 'moral majority' types make a big fuss about "being christian", are they relating to any one christian religion, or are they lumping them all together? Is there just one christian religion? I thought that there were many, but when it gets political, it seems there is only one...

I mean, think about the polygamous sect in the news now - aren't they christians?

I thought I would add my $.02 worth, and that is all it is. There is a difference between being a Christian and having religion. Being a Christian means you profess to believe in Jesus and His teachings, and religion is the means by which you choose to define the details such as which church and denomination you choose and how you choose to worship, pray, baptise, live, etc. Just because you have a religion does not mean you are a Christian, and just because you are a Christian doesn't mean you have a religion. The worst part about religion is that it seperates and classifies. I think that at one time the word "Christian" was meant in order to unify people(Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.) with eachother, but now it is the new "catch all" term for fanatics.

DevilDuckie
04-19-2008, 03:46 PM
But what I've been able to find shows the exact opposite - that there is no consistency at all about Jesus (which was actually a bit of a common name, so there was not just one man named Jesus at that time) and he doesn't appear in any writings until 2 centuries after he was supposedly alive. Even in the bible, the gospels conflict.

Without my notes I can only suggest that you keep reading. :) We did long look at the matter under the guidance of an atheist professor at University, and the historic record was pretty convincing.

Doc CW
04-19-2008, 08:04 PM
I believe every child has to learn the big bang theory and about evolution but it doesn't give the teacher the right to state that there is no God. Go talk to the principal.

I agree go talk to the principle

DisneyBrat
04-19-2008, 08:06 PM
Not sure why anyone finds that poem offensive... It is just a view of how a born again christian feels today. We can't pray out loud in schools and the thing we DON'T believe as a christian is rammed down our throats "evolution" where is our rights? Fine if they must teach this then teach the flip side.. That would be fair wouldnt it? Why must we have to endure a teaching that goes against what WE believe? Ok now the second part of what I was reading I need to explain a little more in depth... Being a born again christian means you believe Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose after the 3rd day. The Bible is clear that all are sinners and the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. This is where faith comes into play. Do I have proof no but then again I don't have proof there is air I just know its there... An old paster explained about different denominations one time.. He said think of them as a bullseye. The center is the foundation of what it takes to be a christian (believing in Christ) then the outer rings are different denominations... Brethern wash feet, Pentecostal speak in tongues ect ect As long as you have the core value then you are a born again christian.. I honestly do not understand why that poem is offensive because its about someone NOT being able to pray... If we are honest with ourselves look back to when we had these values taught in schools, 30 years ago did we have mass shootings? Did we have all the sexual misconduct and things we have today? The answer is NO! So do I think we should still teach the Bible and pray in school the answer is YES!!!... I am not trying to flame anyone on this thread. I have my opinion as you have yours.... As I have gotten older I have realized that there is a diversty among christians but in the end the only thing that matters is if you know Jesus as savior that is what the Bible says and that is the ONLY thing that matters..


Lew

Schmeck
04-19-2008, 08:11 PM
Yes, 30 years ago we had mass killings and unwed mothers, race riots, and 40 years ago we had the KKK, and assassinations. And if you want to go even further back we had the Salem Hysteria, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades...

Momvic5 and Kickapoo, thanks for your input.

Mickey'snewestfan
04-19-2008, 10:04 PM
exactly-evolution is a theory, as is creationism-neither have been proven utilizing the scientific method.
.

Scientifically speaking, a theory is an explanation, that is coherent, can be tested using scientific means, and can be used to predict future events and describe observable phenomena (or facts).

Calling evolution a theory doesn't mean that it hasn't been proven -- there are millions of pieces of evidence that are consistent with this theory, it just means that it's an explanation of observable phenomena rather than an observable phenomena.

Gravity is also a theory. We can list as "fact" all the things we've ever seen fall, and all the things we've ever seen stick to the earth and not float away. The theory of gravity is what explains those facts and allow scientists to predict that tomorrow if you shoot a basket the ball will eventually come back to earth, and that if you let go of a bowling ball while holding it over your big toe you'll regret it.

Scientifically speaking creationism isn't a "theory" because it can't be tested, and it can't be used to predict future events. It's a religious belief. That doesn't make it right or wrong, but it does mean that it doesn't have a place in the science classroom.

DisneyBrat
04-20-2008, 12:47 AM
WWW.answersingenesis.com good reference site that backs up the Bible

Lora
04-20-2008, 08:16 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm not at all surprised at the teacher's comments.

I would recommend the movie "Expelled" that is currently playing. I haven't had a chance to see it myself, but my father said it was pretty good.

tzolkin
04-20-2008, 01:24 PM
Not sure why anyone finds that poem offensive... It is just a view of how a born again christian feels today...
I honestly do not understand why that poem is offensive because its about someone NOT being able to pray...


Lew

If you took the poem to be only about someone's inability to pray than you may have overlooked the other items that are offensive to some. (By the way, students are allowed to pray in public schools. They are even allowed to gather together to pray or to have bible study groups. It is just not allowed to be lead/taught by a teacher or other authority figure.)

I found the poem to be offensive because all of the items mentioned are judgments based on appearances. Some of the most moral people I have known "dressed like freaks" or had piercings. I don't see what that has to do with being christian or a decent human being.

Also, what schools are teaching kids to about witchcraft and vampires? I have never heard of such a thing. And as an American Indian I was offended with the "totem pole" reference being lumped in with witches and vampires. The vast majority of American Indians practice some form of christianity and many find that their tradional beliefs still apply within a christian framework.

On a personal level I was offended by the "elect a pregnant senior queen" line. This line implies (at least to me) that all christians should hold the fact that this young woman is pregnant above any other accomplishments she may have-- that who she is should be defined solely by the "Scarlet Letter" of her pregnant belly. I will tell you my story only because maybe someone will think twice before they judge someone by appearances. I was 16 years old from an extremely devout family, went to church several times a week, taught sunday school, etc etc etc when I was raped and became pregnant with my daughter. I was a junior in high school and at the top of my class. I have felt the judgment of many-- and still am plagued by the stigma of being a teen-parent (even though I'm now almost 30 and married). I was physically shunned by members of my church-- they would turn their backs to me when I entered a room or walked by them. Because I was visibly pregnant, I "must be promiscuous". My family was constantly judged for supporting their "immoral" daughter. There were a few people who cared and supported me, but many others thought I should be punished for the rest of my life for the assumptions they made based on my appearance. Maybe I'm just too sensitive to thoughtless comments like this, but I really don't see where promoting things that could be so offensive and hurtful really serves any purpose.

Tam1067
04-20-2008, 03:50 PM
Back to the original teacher's comments, I would be careful. I'm a college teacher myself, and I know that sometimes students claim they have heard something which is not the entire thing I've said.

It's possible the OP's daughter did not hear the "It's my opinion" or similar qualifier, just like the adult student who complained about a comment I made did not remember or hear the prefacing statement I made to something he found offensive when we were discussing literature.

Teachers should not give personal opinion, I agree, but sometimes, students don't hear things exactly as they're said. I'm not saying the student here is lying either, just that she might have not heard everything perfectly.

Also, you can be Christian and believe in evolution. Those are two different issues entirely. The Catholic Church believes in evolution as do many Protestant denominations. Evangelicals are not the only Christians out there.

_queenie_
04-20-2008, 09:13 PM
My DD13's science class last year learned about basic evolution, but her teacher sent out an email that stated that that was what they would be learning and if anyone had any questions to contact her. All she really taught was that there is a "theory" that apes and humans have developed from a common ancestor. Teaching evolution is their job, but most certainly not to say there is no god. Definately bring this up with him or the principal, drop either one an email and if that gets you a nasty response go higher. Relgious beliefs need to stay out of the public classroom, it doesn't matter what.

By the way, speaking to everyone in general I find it important to prepare your child for learning these things if you are devoutly religous. Just mention to them in sixth grade or so that in school they will learn different theories of creationism.

maymom96
04-22-2008, 06:22 AM
This thread reminds me of a joke our pastor told in church a few weeks ago. It goes something like this:

A teacher is using the "scientific method" to teach the class about evolution...

TEACHER: Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl questioned the boy.

LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this time).
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yessssss.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see the teacher's mind?
TOMMY: No.
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!