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Disney Dreams
04-13-2008, 10:03 PM
Hi All!

The energy that everyone here has been putting forth to save our Funville is so fantastic!

As our efforts continue, it is getting a bit difficult to find certain posts that have great information. With this in mind, this thread is solely an index to all posts related to the efforts to save vmk.

For the most part, this is a "where can I find that post about __________" thread.

What should we post here?
- If there are key posts with information relating to this campaign that exist prior to 4/13/08 at 8:15pm PST that are NOT listed here, please post a link and I will add.
- If new information has been posted somewhere on the board and I have not added it within 24 hours to this thread.
- Corrections to anything I place here.

What should not be posted here?
- Anything new.
- Anything that is not a link referencing a post already on DIS.

Disclaimer: I have spent about 3 hours pouring over 100s of posts from the last week trying to summarize everything into one place. I am 100% positive that I missed things. Anything missed was in no way intentional.

Request: If I missed something on this initial pulling together of everything posted over the last week that you think belongs here, please just post it here and I will update.

I hope this helps with everyone's efforts and is a useful tool for everyone.

Cheers to saving Funville!

- Dreams

Disney Dreams
04-13-2008, 10:03 PM
Save VMK Sites and Tools
SaveVMKToday (www.savevmktoday.com)
SaveVMK (www.savevmk.com)
Online Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/07171955/petition.html)
Save VMK Banners (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24349138&postcount=22)
VMK Kids Unite (http://vmkkidsunite.com/index.cfm) - includes information re: demonstration at DLR

Want to have your voice heard, but don't have any idea who to write to? Here are some ideas, along with contact information.
Ideas of Who / Where to Contact, mostly Disney contacts
(by no means the only people to write to, use your own ideas)
Via E-mail (http://www.savevmktoday.com/email.html)
Via Snail Mail (http://www.savevmktoday.com/snail_mail.html)
Via Fax (http://www.savevmktoday.com/fax.html)
Lots of contact information (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24321909&postcount=1)
More contact information (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24405823&postcount=35)
(Many of these links have duplicate information, but there's lots of good info in all of them.)
Gaming Magazines and Web sites (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24472569&postcount=11)
Another Gaming Magazine (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1792709)

Really want to write something, but not comfortable writing your own letter?
Sample Letters (http://www.savevmktoday.com/samples.html)
Belle1997 Ideas (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24398091&postcount=1)

Letters and Mailings fellow DIS'ers have shared (in alpha order)

A Young VMK Player (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24465276&postcount=1)
Aengus’s video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpu_xatiUo0)
AmberDaze (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24388747&postcount=1)
Belle1997 (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1785635)
Bopper (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24387555&postcount=1)
Bugdozer (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1786998)
cteddiesgirl (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1792413)
DIS Members' Flats and profiles mailed to Disney. (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1805175)
Disney Dreams (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24365214&postcount=51)
DreamyTime (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24348712&postcount=26)
DreamyTime "alternative mailing" (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24513641&postcount=1)
ILiketheTitanic (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24412109&postcount=43)
Imagineer_Tech (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24388318&postcount=16)
Junglerivergirl (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.ph...2&postcount=99)
Kasiks (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24388217&postcount=15)
LostinDisney (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24458011&postcount=1)
LuckyDesi (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24347319&postcount=25)
MissVMK678:0) (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24520094&postcount=1)
PirateBell (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24343306&postcount=17)
PirateslifeYoHo (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24342145&postcount=15)
PrincessMadiro (http://disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24342655&postcount=1)
RollerCoasterGal (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1787435)
SorcererDonald16 (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24372534&postcount=36)
Tampa (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24419613&postcount=1)
VanillaIceCream (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=25002250&postcount=1)


Media Coverage (in alpha order)

About.com
http://familyinternet.about.com/b/2008/04/28/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-to-close-in-may.htm

Associated Press
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9208912
This is the big storm everyone! APs article is showing up on papers EVERYWHERE in just 1 hour. Run a Google search for "virtual magic kingdom AP" and pick a site any site you like to post comments. "There's a storm front coming..." lalala

Blogspot blogs
http://dannaluv.blogspot.com/2008/04/when-community-ends.html

Central Florida News 13
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/4/30/parents_plan_to_boycott_disney_over_web_site_dilem ma.html

CleverParents
http://www.cleverparents.com/2008/04/22/disney/
(the 8th reader comment references VMK)

CNET
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9874335-7.html

The Disney Blog
http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/09/virtual-magic-kingdom-vmk-protests-and-petitions/
http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/15/vmk-time-for-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom/
http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/18/why-close-vmk-disney/
http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/24/disney-is-raising-your-kids-on-social-networks/

Eurogamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=132469

Fairy Tale Treasures
http://fairytaletreasureshop.com/?p=117

Gameindustry.biz
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/players-petition-disney-to-save-vmk-online-world

GamePro.fr
http://www.gamepro.fr/actualites/41631/disney-vmk/
note: Article is in French.

GameSetWatch
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/04/column_why_we_play_today_ill_s.php

HardCasual.net
http://hardcasual.net/2008/04/29/still-alive-with-gtaiv/#more-120

HuliQ
http://www.huliq.com/56481/disney-vmk-or-virtual-magic-kingdom

Inside the Magic podcast
http://cdn3.libsyn.com/insidethemagic/itms158.mp3

ireport
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-9999
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10062
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-11059
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10491
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10522
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10106
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10505
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-10566
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-17943

Izzy Neis
http://izzyneis.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/more-on-vmk-and-a-ramble-about-community-blossoms/

KIRO Radio Interview
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-12100

Kotaku
http://kotaku.com/381861/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-closing-fans-hysterical
Found this one on 4/25/08 Anyone who cares to try to explain to those who don't "get it" why VMK closing is different than other games closing, this is your chance. (no outside contact, etc....) Replies on this 1 are pretty hostile, although they all acknowledge the 'net would explode if WoW were to close.

Lagorama
http://lagorama.com/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-virtually-closed

lex icon
http://lexicon.typepad.com/lexicon/2008/04/disneys-virtual.html

Local 6 News (Orlando, FL)
http://www.local6.com/news/15881453/detail.html?rss=orlpn&psp=news
The news clip can be viewed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCZsOmRAk94).

MagicalMountain.net
http://www.magicalmountain.net/WDWNewsDetail.asp?NewsID=1889

Massively.com
http://www.massively.com/2008/04/09/virtual-magic-kingdom-comes-to-an-end/
http://www.massively.com/2008/04/14/fans-speak-out-passionately-on-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-cl/

MyParenTime.com
http://www.myparentime.com/articles/08/article683.shtml

MickeyNews.com
http://www.mickeynews.com/News/DisplayPressRelease.asp_Q_id_E_4158VMK

Moldova.org
http://movie.moldova.org/stiri/eng/112313/

The Money Times
http://www.themoneytimes.com/articles/20080418/disney_trashes_its_kingdom-id-1020550.html

The Motley Fool
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/04/17/disney-trashes-its-kingdom.aspx

NetCot.com
http://www.netcot.com/thesite/2008/04/07/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-closing-may-21/

Orange County Register Blog
http://ocresort.freedomblogging.com/2008/04/10/virtual-magic-kingdom-to-end-may-21/
http://ocresort.freedomblogging.com/2008/04/14/virtual-magic-kingdom-closure-draws-out-fans-reaction-from-producer

OverGame.com
http://www.overgame.com/items/20440_mmo-mickey-derape.html
note: This is a French publication. The article has been translated (hopefully relatively closely) here (http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24714211&postcount=59).

RockPaperShotgun - cautionary note: Many negative and somewhat offensive comments, accompanied by some supportive input
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1537

Screamscape
http://www.screamscape.com/html/industry_news.htm#Disney

Spark CBC Radio
http://www.cbc.ca/spark/blog/2008/04/what_do_online_communities_owe_1.html
http://www.cbc.ca/spark/blog/2008/05/episode_36_may_7_10_2008.html

The Sydney Morning Herald
http://blogs.smh.com.au/screenplay/archives/017999.html

TMCnet
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/04/16/3389299.htm

Venture Beat
http://venturebeat.com/2008/04/11/roundup-venturebeat-site-update-microsofts-new-map-service-to-avoid-traffic-jams-and-more/

Virtual Economic Forum
http://virtualeconomicforum.com/content-library/blogging/about/disney_cans_virtual_magic_kingdom_mmo/

Virtual World News
http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2008/04/disneys-virtual.html?cid=110136444#comment-110136444

VMKBlog.com
www.vmkblog.com

WDWNewsletter.com
http://wdwnewsletter.com/disney-to-close-vmk/

WorldsInMotion.biz
http://www.worldsinmotion.biz/2008/04/disney_closes_gates_to_virtual.php

Disney Dreams
04-13-2008, 10:04 PM
- reserved for more info -

Disney Dreams
04-13-2008, 10:07 PM
reserved for more info

Disney Dreams
04-13-2008, 10:08 PM
- reserved for more information -

StephenTXT99
04-13-2008, 10:09 PM
Just visit Savevmktoday.com that's what I do. And sign up to get email alerts. those are so helpful with breaking news

Disney Dreams
04-14-2008, 02:04 AM
Just visit Savevmktoday.com that's what I do. And sign up to get email alerts. those are so helpful with breaking news

Thank you for your post. You will notice that SaveVmkToday is at the top of the list for related sites and tools. This thread is here to organize all the many efforts and related posts that members of the DIS-VMK community wish to share with one another. If you look at the main board here you will see an amazing number of posts regarding this topic. SavevmkToday is an excellent resource and a wonderful site. It complements the community and communication opportunities that DIS members have here, it does not replace them. :goodvibes

Belle1997
04-14-2008, 06:06 AM
Please add

Bugdozers letter http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1786998

and Littlebelle's http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1785635

Aslo Motivational Letter this is the one I have been posting all over. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1787558

Thanks

Disney Dreams
04-14-2008, 10:40 AM
Please add

Bugdozers letter http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1786998

and Littlebelle's http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1785635

Aslo Motivational Letter this is the one I have been posting all over. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1787558

Thanks

Thanks for the links... so much to sort through here. I have added all 3 to the first post. I was not quite sure where you wanted your 2nd letter so I put it under aids for people who might be stuck writing their own letter. :goodvibes

Belle1997
04-14-2008, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the links... so much to sort through here. I have added all 3 to the first post. I was not quite sure where you wanted your 2nd letter so I put it under aids for people who might be stuck writing their own letter. :goodvibes

Perfect :thumbsup2 Yes that why we are writing fits in samples great :goodvibes work

hdmonkeybug
04-14-2008, 01:45 PM
Add this to the list:
http://wdwnewsletter.com/disney-to-close-vmk/

I have sent my letters to a few gaming magazines. This may be another route that may get some attention. If you know of anyother gaming mags, I would love to send to them also.

editor at pcgamer: editor@pcgamer.com
editor at gameinformer: jeff@gameinformer.com
editor at beckett : mog@beckett.com

There is a website for family friendly MMO's called TenTonHampster. Its a division of the tentonhammer site for MMO's. I sent my letters to them as well. john@tentonhammer.com

disvaclub92
04-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Please Princessmadiro's plea to your list as well. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1784722&page=1&highlight=

Disney Dreams
04-14-2008, 04:58 PM
Add this to the list:
http://wdwnewsletter.com/disney-to-close-vmk/

I have sent my letters to a few gaming magazines. This may be another route that may get some attention. If you know of anyother gaming mags, I would love to send to them also.

editor at pcgamer: editor@pcgamer.com
editor at gameinformer: jeff@gameinformer.com
editor at beckett : mog@beckett.com

There is a website for family friendly MMO's called TenTonHampster. Its a division of the tentonhammer site for MMO's. I sent my letters to them as well. john@tentonhammer.com
Another new article! Great find! Love the gaming sites / magazine ideas. Updated first post with link to your post. Thanks for providing these for everyone.

Please Princessmadiro's plea to your list as well. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1784722&page=1&highlight=
Added hers first thing this morning. Let me know if it needed to be changed / edited. :goodvibes

snshine123
04-14-2008, 05:03 PM
WOW! This is amazing! Thanks for taking the time to do this Dreams!:cheer2:

IrishTinkerbell
04-14-2008, 05:13 PM
Thank you so much for all the work you put into this. It makes it so much easier to find something.:thumbsup2 :goodvibes

VMK-DreamDazzle

Cardinal
04-14-2008, 05:16 PM
The "Cardinal" link leads to Ranch's post. My "Critique Our Letters" project is here:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1785946

Feel free to continue post drafts and stuff, as we are always ready to provide help with writing. Pieces of writing always become improve when they are proofread by other people, and good writing will attract more attention from the Big Wigs. :thumbsup2

My other "Letter to VMK" is provided here, (for your comic enjoyment/to provide some well-needed levity!)

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24457548&postcount=35

piratesLifeYoho
04-14-2008, 05:22 PM
i haven't seen these contacts on this thread yet ...
_________________________________________
i posted to cnet just now; they've written about VMK in the past. i think starting with online news is a good idea!

http://www.cnet.com/4520-13403_1-672...tml?tag=pre_ft

this is a link to the contact editors page for anyone who wants to write in. there is also a contact us link at the upper right hand corner of the web page. good luck!
_______________________________________

thank you so much for working on this

CinderellaWannab
04-14-2008, 05:29 PM
TY very much for the info. I have been looking for the petition and never did find it. Woot I am on there now!:thumbsup2

Tampa
04-14-2008, 05:42 PM
This is the greatest thread created to date on any VMK fan board.

This effort is greater than any quest, prize, and anything you could possibly do for someone that's VMK-related. You rock Dreams. :worship:

Disney Dreams
04-14-2008, 06:05 PM
The "Cardinal" link leads to Ranch's post. My "Critique Our Letters" project is here:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1785946
Hey Cardinal! Thanks for catching that. I can't locate your "real" letter anywhere. If you could provide me a link, I will add it. Thanks again for the correction.

i haven't seen these contacts on this thread yet ...http://www.cnet.com/4520-13403_1-672...tml?tag=pre_ft
this is a link to the contact editors page for anyone who wants to write in....
This link does not go anywhere. Could you post it again for me? Thanks!

WOW! This is amazing! Thanks for taking the time to do this Dreams!:cheer2:
Thank you so much for all the work you put into this. It makes it so much easier to find something.:thumbsup2 :goodvibes
VMK-DreamDazzle

...thank you so much for working on this
No problem. Glad people find it useful.

TY very much for the info. I have been looking for the petition and never did find it. Woot I am on there now!:thumbsup2
Woot!

This is the greatest thread created to date on any VMK fan board. This effort is greater than any quest, prize, and anything you could possibly do for someone that's VMK-related. You rock Dreams. :worship:
Aww, Tampa. Thank you very much. You just made the hours it took last night worthwhile. (And some how some way I will write my final quest!)

Cardinal
04-14-2008, 06:17 PM
Hey Cardinal! Thanks for catching that. I can't locate your "real" letter anywhere. If you could provide me a link, I will add it. Thanks again for the correction.

I'm reworking my "real" (;) ) letter right now.

Thanks for your work Dreams, you rock! :thumbsup2

StephenTXT99
04-14-2008, 11:41 PM
also just found the press release http://www.savevmktoday.com/press_release.html it is a very good read:love:

AmberDaze
04-15-2008, 12:00 AM
No problem. Glad people find it useless.

Actually, we're finding it quite useful! :rotfl: :hug:

Disney Dreams
04-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Actually, we're finding it quite useful! :rotfl: :hug:

:rotfl: Me? Tired? NEVER! :rotfl: I was just testing to see if anyone was reading... yeah... that's it!

Thanks Days.he! I fixed it. :wizard:

AmberDaze
04-15-2008, 12:17 AM
:rotfl: Me? Tired? NEVER! :rotfl: I was just testing to see if anyone was reading... yeah... that's it!

Thanks Days.he! I fixed it. :wizard:

:rotfl: :hug: :hug:

Disney Dreams
04-15-2008, 10:36 AM
Updated 2nd post with new links, writing ideas, etc....

Disney Dreams
04-15-2008, 01:32 PM
Added http://lexicon.typepad.com/lexicon/2008/04/disneys-virtual.html. This is a good one I had not seen.

Amber_Kait
04-15-2008, 03:48 PM
Thanks dreams for making this, makes everything a bit easier (:

just a quick question,
i can't remember, and im not sure if you have it on here or not.
but who is it that is willing to send all letters out if people don't have the chance to?

Disney Dreams
04-15-2008, 05:22 PM
Thanks dreams for making this, makes everything a bit easier (:
Great! That was the point. :)

just a quick question, i can't remember, and im not sure if you have it on here or not. but who is it that is willing to send all letters out if people don't have the chance to?
I believe you are looking for Candyman. Check this thread. :)
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1783419

hdmonkeybug
04-15-2008, 07:16 PM
I just found this which quotes Jegrezo and little Madison. Warning - there are some very rude comments made, but there are also some comments made by ppl that have never played or heard of vmk that are now signing petitions and supporting our effort.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1537

MPhins13
04-15-2008, 07:28 PM
Great job!! This is very helpful since there are so many threads.

Thanks for doing an exhausting job that I know you will add more to :cheer2:

cteddiesgirl
04-16-2008, 12:05 AM
Hey Dreams.

Here is a letter from new DIS member junglerivergirl:
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24506092&postcount=99

Also, my letter is here: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1792413

disvaclub92
04-16-2008, 05:25 AM
Wait till you read this link. (Special thanks for Princessmadiro for finding this link.)

http://lagorama.com/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-virtually-closed

cteddiesgirl
04-16-2008, 08:26 AM
Nice find! :thumbsup2

AmberDaze
04-16-2008, 09:01 AM
3 new articles...

Eurogamer: Fans rally to save Disney MMO (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=132469)

Gameindustry.biz: Players petition Disney to save VMK (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/players-petition-disney-to-save-vmk-online-world)

I don't think this one's been listed yet...and eh...I don't like the tone midway through...the author portrays a bit of hopelessness there... But...it's a fairly good representation to Disney of what we are going through...
VMK: Saving Disney’s Virtual Magic Kingdom (http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/15/vmk-time-for-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom/#more-3767)

Roller Coaster Gal
04-16-2008, 09:40 AM
Here's my letter that I sent to WDIG and sent via snail mail:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1787435

aengus
04-16-2008, 09:45 AM
Not sure if people want it tracked, but Inside the magic podcast covered it.

Disney Dreams
04-16-2008, 12:09 PM
I just found this which quotes Jegrezo and little Madison. Warning - there are some very rude comments made, but there are also some comments made by ppl that have never played or heard of vmk that are now signing petitions and supporting our effort.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1537
Ooh they are lucky that 1 got locked before I saw it. Added it to the list. Thanks Monkey!

Great job!! This is very helpful since there are so many threads. Thanks for doing an exhausting job that I know you will add more to :cheer2:
Glad it's helpful... makes it worth the effort. :goodvibes

Hey Dreams.

Here is a letter from new DIS member junglerivergirl:
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=24506092&postcount=99
Also, my letter is here: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1792413

Wait till you read this link. (Special thanks for Princessmadiro for finding this link.)
http://lagorama.com/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-virtually-closed

3 new articles...

Eurogamer: Fans rally to save Disney MMO (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=132469)

Gameindustry.biz: Players petition Disney to save VMK (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/players-petition-disney-to-save-vmk-online-world)

I don't think this one's been listed yet...and eh...I don't like the tone midway through...the author portrays a bit of hopelessness there... But...it's a fairly good representation to Disney of what we are going through...
VMK: Saving Disney’s Virtual Magic Kingdom (http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/15/vmk-time-for-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom/#more-3767)

Here's my letter that I sent to WDIG and sent via snail mail:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1787435

Not sure if people want it tracked, but Inside the magic podcast covered it.
All of the above have been added to 2nd post in thread.

Days: Saw the John Frost article last night. He has been very supportive of our cause. Although I am not sure I like his findings, he has done some good investigative work into the elusive "Why?" that we all have. Part of me almost wonders if any pleas sent Sulake's way would help? Anyone have thoughts on this after reading this (http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/15/vmk-time-for-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom/#more-3767)?

aengus
04-16-2008, 12:26 PM
All of the above have been added to 2nd post in thread.

Days: Saw the John Frost article last night. He has been very supportive of our cause. Although I am not sure I like his findings, he has done some good investigative work into the elusive "Why?" that we all have. Part of me almost wonders if any pleas sent Sulake's way would help? Anyone have thoughts on this after reading this (http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/15/vmk-time-for-disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom/#more-3767)?

I just left a comment on that blog :)

It seems like Disney chose not to renew the contract with Sulake, I cant imagine Sulake is choosing to not work with Disney.

vmkfan13
04-16-2008, 08:17 PM
A radio station has mentioned VMK recently (will try to find all the links related asap).

Disney Dreams
04-17-2008, 11:01 AM
I just left a comment on that blog :)

It seems like Disney chose not to renew the contract with Sulake, I cant imagine Sulake is choosing to not work with Disney.
Right, but now that that decision is in the past, Sulake still has the engine that runs the car. I am wondering at this point if Disney has the ability to keep VMK open, if indeed they don't own the engine that runs their wildly popular car.

A radio station has mentioned VMK recently (will try to find all the links related asap).
Great. If you find them, post here and I will update main post. :)

Added Spark CBC Radio to main post.

aengus
04-17-2008, 12:24 PM
Right, but now that that decision is in the past, Sulake still has the engine that runs the car. I am wondering at this point if Disney has the ability to keep VMK open, if indeed they don't own the engine that runs their wildly popular car.


Great. If you find them, post here and I will update main post. :)

Added Spark CBC Radio to main post.

ah I see your point, well the good news is, I am sure Sulake would be willing to sell it if they are now indeed obligated elsewhere.

AmberDaze
04-17-2008, 01:16 PM
Not sure if this has been listed already...article from UPI Fans protest end of Disney online game (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/04/16/3389299.htm)

Disney Dreams
04-17-2008, 02:22 PM
ah I see your point, well the good news is, I am sure Sulake would be willing to sell it if they are now indeed obligated elsewhere.
Very true. All the more reason it's odd they did not offer a pay to play option.

Not sure if this has been listed already...article from UPI Fans protest end of Disney online game (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/04/16/3389299.htm)
Got it. Thank you!

NedsTJ
04-17-2008, 04:35 PM
Another new article, this time from The Motely Fool. The author first wrote a review on VMK during it's Beta days and after the first month "Live". In the article below he asks the same questions a lot of us are asking.
(for those who don't know "The Fool" is a very well known and respected business and finance website)

Disney Trashes its Kingdom (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/04/17/disney-trashes-its-kingdom.aspx)

Disney Dreams
04-17-2008, 04:53 PM
Another new article, this time from The Motely Fool. The author first wrote a review on VMK during it's Beta days and after the first month "Live". In the article below he asks the same questions a lot of us are asking.
(for those who don't know "The Fool" is a very well known and respected business and finance website)

Disney Trashes its Kingdom (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/04/17/disney-trashes-its-kingdom.aspx)

Thanks for sharing this. What is significant about this imo is that it is NOT an entertainment or gaming media source, but a business source that is showing how non-logical this decision seems to be from the sheer business perspective.

- sigh -

I have added this to the media coverage list.

AmberDaze
04-17-2008, 05:08 PM
Great article -- thanks for sharing. :thumbsup2

Disney Dreams
04-18-2008, 03:14 AM
Updated with coverage on St. Louis news site, StLtoday.com

- Dreams

Disney Dreams
04-18-2008, 10:49 PM
Updated with the addition of Screamscape.com mention.

AmberDaze
04-19-2008, 07:50 AM
Do you have these 2 yet?

More on VMK, and a ramble about community blossoms (http://izzyneis.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/more-on-vmk-and-a-ramble-about-community-blossoms/)

Why close VMK? Wonders Disney Analyst (http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/18/why-close-vmk-disney/) (John Frost article)

cteddiesgirl
04-21-2008, 02:32 PM
I think this needs a bump. If only so people are reminded to keep on writing! :thumbsup2

Send out a letter every day if you can! :goodvibes

piratesLifeYoho
04-22-2008, 01:52 PM
I think this needs a bump. If only so people are reminded to keep on writing! :thumbsup2

Send out a letter every day if you can! :goodvibes

i agree :thumbsup2

hdmonkeybug
04-24-2008, 12:04 AM
Needs another bump - Keep fighting! BTW, Miss Jegrezo - your Pm's are full!

mir4mad
04-24-2008, 03:03 AM
Another link:
http://blogs.smh.com.au/screenplay/archives/017999.html

AmberDaze
04-25-2008, 04:58 AM
From TheMoneyTimes.com:

Disney Trashes Its Kingdom (http://www.themoneytimes.com/articles/20080418/disney_trashes_its_kingdom-id-1020550.html)

Kasiks
04-25-2008, 08:04 AM
From overgame (website in french dedicated to games news) I am not sure if the guy who wrote the news ever played VMK but it is a good article

http://www.overgame.com/items/20440_mmo-mickey-derape.html

redshoe
04-25-2008, 08:21 AM
From overgame (website in french dedicated to games news) I am not sure if the guy who wrote the news ever played VMK but it is a good article

http://www.overgame.com/items/20440_mmo-mickey-derape.html

Wow...that's a REALLY good article!

mir4mad
04-25-2008, 08:22 AM
Another good one:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/04/column_why_we_play_today_ill_s.php

Also came across a post on a mom bloggers site and added my comments:

http://www.cleverparents.com/2008/04/22/disney/

# Annette Reed Said:
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:32 pm

How awesome it is that Disney got a group of mom bloggers together to experience first hand the MAGIC of disney in the parks while supporting your efforts. Your observation
“I think that we mom bloggers had a few extra perks, but people seem to be treated pretty well at Disney, expenses paid or not” rings true. Now imagine as a mom having a child with special needs who would risk putting their health in jeopardy to visit the parks. Why? Because kids with special needs are treated well at disney and its the only place they can be a kid just like other kids. Now imagine a virtual place just like this where everyday a child (or even an adult) can experience the magic of disney and “play” in a safe, family environment without the risk of getting sick. In case you didn’t know it, there is such a place and it’s called Virtual Magic Kingdom or VMK. VMK will however shut down on May 21st leaving thousands of children without an acceptable outlet to imagine, create, learn and socialize with their families or other kids just like them. For these kids it’s not the tangible every day “things” that they love but the ability to interact on their own and gain a sense of love and accomplishment. As a mom you want only the best for your child and VMK gives any child the “best” in a virtual world. Kudos disney for making magic in the parks and for creating such an even more magical place on the web for 3 years. Many children however will loose their closest friends and contact with far away family members like even with a parent in Iraq. Dreams do come true even in VMK!!!


:goodvibes

disvaclub92
04-25-2008, 08:30 AM
From overgame (website in french dedicated to games news) I am not sure if the guy who wrote the news ever played VMK but it is a good article

http://www.overgame.com/items/20440_mmo-mickey-derape.html

Kasiks, Thanks for the article, I took time to translate it (using software) so please correct me if I am wrong. Very good article.


The closing of one of the virtual worlds Disney causes a draft never seen at the players – and a sometimes moving disappointment at the children. A lesson for industry MMO and, particularly, for giant: a community is not a product.

Virtual Magic Kingdom is, as his name points it out, a numerical recreation of the parks of charm Disney in most cases intended for the 8-14 years. Within this one, the young players (and the least young) can discuss between them, participate in activities and in mini-games, as well as decorate their personal space with the aid of various objects acquired via purchase or search. The title, thrown at the mi of 2005 on the occasion of the 50th birthday of Disneyland, was conceived at first as a temporary promotion, free MMO the life of which was estimated around the eighteen months. Success obliges, title continued turning – until today but more for a long time: some days ago, Disney announced the close next of the waiters on May 21st of this year. In a letter addressed last week to the players, the group says that it had " never envisaged that Virtual Magic Kingdom turns forever " and invites the users to migrate to other virtual worlds of the society such as Pirates of Online Caribbean or Penguin club.

The logic of Disney is clear. The celebrations of the 50th birthday being since ended nice lurette, and VMK being to a great extent free, perspectives back on investment for the society on this particular plan are consequently void, or even negatives. In the opposite, it had been revealed early in the year that the group got ready to spend up to 100 million dollars on the creation of ten new virtual worlds. Among these, Online Coaches, being supposed to do urgent make link with the arrival of new charm based on the film of animation of Pixar in parks. Already available, Pixie Hollow, shone, is between others made responsible for supporting mark Disney Fairies and, particularly, the series of toys linked as well as next exit of the film Tinker Bell, centered around the new adventures of the small fairy of Peter Pan.

For the fans of Virtual Magic Kingdom, not much interested by the economic strategy of the group, explanation of Disney represents of course a pitiful solace only. On this subject, the most interesting aspect of this affair is indeed the record draft of the players, decided well to make go back the giant on its decision thanks to a true guerilla mass media of a rare intensity in the world of MMO. Going much more far than the habitual disillusioned messages and big anger which accompany in general the closing of a virtual world, the team takes attack sections comments of professional sites such as Worlds In Motion (close to Gamasutra) either Virtual World News, copying out mothers' long evidence having seen their sons or girls to mourn further to the announcement, or children attained by cancers or by autism having found consolation in virtual Disneyland. The petition of a small 11-year-old girl, attained of atrophies muscular and fan of
Virtual Magic Kingdom because " nobody looks there strangely at it, " is particularly taken back by Next Generation or Raph Koster. Everywhere, they check off Disney of the finger: in some days, Mickey the friend of all was transformed into Picsou, the skinflint who tears off their toy preferred to the ill children.

Many people draw lessons of such marketing failure. Next Generation sees " there a warning on the way to manage MMO communities destinies to the children. " Some people reproach particularly Disney they have not known how fit to the success of title there, for instance, passing to a model of profitable subscription, a resolution which Mattel newly adopted for the virtual world BarbieGirls.com. Others think that the society merged product and community, an error which returns, one more time, in the endless question of the value of the virtual, put forward newly by the reboot of Shadowbane.

" There is a reality when you decide to throw an online community, and it is that at instant, this one develops so as to become the responsibility of the creator, " estimates John Frost, editor of the Disney Blog. Nonetheless, the group does not seem to have intention to bend. In two messages addressed to the players since the announcement, this one claims to be "affected " by evidence but confirms his plans of closing. But the fans, them, do not lower arms. " Be not discouraged by their answer, because nobody waited from them only they capitulate immediately, reassure one of the activists of the site VMKMagic. [This email proves qu '] they begin studying reactions and which this makes them reflect. It is the instant to counter-attack with MORE of emails and MORE signatures. "

Kasiks
04-25-2008, 11:28 AM
Kasiks, Thanks for the article, I took time to translate it (using software) so please correct me if I am wrong. Very good article."
I would over translate it but my time is a bit limited

There is also this link http://www.gamepro.fr/actualites/41631/disney-vmk/

Disney Dreams
04-25-2008, 03:39 PM
Upated through here.

It's interesting to me the range of media that is covering this closure. Business-related entities are starting to cover it from the "It just doesn't make business sense" perspective. One of these articles (which I REALLY enjoyed reading) addresses the role of games in the life of people with birth defects and illnesses. It's very interesting to me to see the range of angles that have generated coverage. Why doesn't Disney get it???

And can I just say how weird it is to see your own comments quoted in an article generated from the other side of the planet? The web really does make us all closer, does it?

:wizard:

Disney Dreams
04-26-2008, 12:35 AM
KIRO radio interview added to 2nd post.

Disney Dreams
04-26-2008, 12:53 AM
Found this tonight... http://fairytaletreasureshop.com/?p=117

Was slightly annoyed at the "eh, it's just an online game" attitude, but for some reason was not able to pull together a nice, relevant post to add to the replies. If anyone wants to - please do. :) (added to 2nd post)

- Dreams

seaturtledude
04-26-2008, 01:00 AM
I was bugged with the "eh its an online game" attitude also.

Disney Dreams
04-26-2008, 01:08 AM
I was bugged with the attitude also.
Yep. Just dont have the brain focus to write something coherent tonight.

Also, just found this:
http://www.huliq.com/56481/disney-vmk-or-virtual-magic-kingdom
(added to first thread)

This parent has very eloquently expressed her disappointment in the Walt Disney Co.

First paragraph:
"Disney has lost it’s way it seems. For the first time I have seen Disney do something that hurts itself and the kids it celebrates so much. They are closing the Virtual Magic Kingdom (VMK)."

disvaclub92
04-28-2008, 11:13 AM
I received a PM with the following link. Thanks PrincessNoelle and Stunt for finding this.

Discusses Disney and their plans for kids in social networks.

http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/24/disney-is-raising-your-kids-on-social-networks/

Disney Dreams
04-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I received a PM with the following link. Thanks PrincessNoelle and Stunt for finding this.
Discusses Disney and their plans for kids in social networks.
http://thedisneyblog.com/2008/04/24/disney-is-raising-your-kids-on-social-networks/

Got it. Second post updated. Btw, very interesting, give it a watch/listen.

hdmonkeybug
04-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Interesting, but I don't understand how that explains at all why vmk is closing - It would seem to me that VMK should fit quite well into that community plan. Its an existing community that already does all of the things the interview talks about. Why doesn't Disney see that?:sad2:

redshoe
04-28-2008, 03:40 PM
Interesting, but I don't understand how that explains at all why vmk is closing - It would seem to me that VMK should fit quite well into that community plan. Its an existing community that already does all of the things the interview talks about. Why doesn't Disney see that?:sad2:

I'll take "because they're shortsighted buffoons" for $200, Alex!

RiceOwl
04-28-2008, 04:37 PM
Very interesting interview with the Disney On Line executives. I thought his comment about "inappropriate behavior" was directed at VMK. He followed up saying sites that have a single purpose (POTC e.g.) are "self policing" and I felt by that he meant VMK is not. I'm still at a loss to understand why they can't incorporate the safety features of ToonTown chat into VMK and offer it as a pay to play site. That would resolve the two issues he mentioned and preserve the investment Disney has made in VMK.

AmberDaze
04-28-2008, 05:08 PM
I haven't finished watching this video yet, but I just had to cut and paste a few of Steve Wadsworth's quotes from this latest video interview...just from about 7 minutes in...

The way we look at it at Disney...creating a community around context...has a lot of value...from a consumer prospective and from a business prospective......... From a consumer prospective...if consumers enter any type of social media experience or community experience on the web where there is a clear reason...or a clear theme to it........and they want to live in that world and be in that environment...

Someone clearly isn't taking their own advice. Are they saying that people who have joined VMK have joined for reasons that are not clear? How much clearer can you get? :confused3

We're all fans of Disney...*hits head*

There's a reason they're all there...which means: that is really a community

OMG, like no way! *hits head again*

mizmouse
04-29-2008, 01:00 AM
This thread is amazing...thanks for the recent bumps, I missed it earlier. Is there any way to lock it at the top?

Thank you for all your hard work Disney Dreams!!!

I do have a blog that I have been culling information about the Save VMK effort, it is www.vmkblog.com. I mainly started making posts to it to cause blog chatter in the blogosphere, I'm up to 100+ posts so far. If others have blogs, chatter away, the more posts on Save VMK topics, the better because the are indexed by search engines and there is a better opportunity that media outlets will continue to report on our efforts!

OneLittleSpark
04-29-2008, 06:17 AM
Not sure if anyone has posted these yet or not, but this is a link to the Sit-In Protest thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1803513

And the Save VMK Walk thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=24795850


Thank you for making this thread, it's an amazing piece of work! :thumbsup2

Disney Dreams
04-29-2008, 11:37 AM
OMG, like no way! *hits head again*
Thanks for the giggle! Read this the first time when I really need a laugh and it was perfect! :goodvibes

The one new thing I DID get from that interview is Disney's focus on games/communities that have a SINGLE interest (penguins, fairies, pirates - as opposed to - ghosts and pirates and fireworks and jungle cruise and potc and tiki and hsm and monsters and topsy-turvy, etc....). For VMK, the staff thinks up and creates new themes for us continuously. In these other games, there is not the need for this as the game topic IS the theme. That is much less labor-intensive from a creative and technical viewpoint I suppose. That is the FIRST thing that I have heard (not that he actually came out and said it) that makes any sense as to closing VMK.

This thread is amazing...thanks for the recent bumps, I missed it earlier. Is there any way to lock it at the top?
Thank you for all your hard work Disney Dreams!!!
I do have a blog...
Thanks for the kind comments. If people find it helpful, it's worth the effort to me. Appreciate the nice support.

As for it being locked at the top, Aengus and Disvaclub do not want to make this a sticky. I requested this when I started the "compilation" thread. Those who find it useful need to keep an eye open and bump it up when it starts to fall.

Your blog is nice, good work.

Not sure if anyone has posted these yet or not, but this is a link to the Sit-In Protest thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1803513

And the Save VMK Walk thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=24795850

Thank you for making this thread, it's an amazing piece of work! :thumbsup2

These aren't really media coverage which is the purpose of this thread so I have not listed them on the 2nd post, but I believe most on this board have read of these 2 in-game efforts. All efforts to make a statement that we want to keep Funville alive are great! Thanks for your kind comments re: the thread.

Updated through here,
Dreams

AmberDaze
04-29-2008, 12:09 PM
For VMK, the staff thinks up and creates new themes for us continuously. In these other games, there is not the need for this as the game topic IS the theme. That is much less labor-intensive from a creative and technical viewpoint I suppose. That is the FIRST thing that I have heard (not that he actually came out and said it) that makes any sense as to closing VMK.

It was their idea to give us monthly themes...I wonder if at this point we would all be happy enough if we had the same old theme all the time. Who says there needs to be a "theme" anyway? Did any of us ever ask for one? If that is part of their reasoning, it still doesn't make sense...

mir4mad
04-29-2008, 10:05 PM
Thank you Disney Dreams! Your post has stirred up so many other posts and comments in regards to princessmadiro's "blog" and her feelings about VMK closing. Just saw this one and this guy actually gets it (sorry if it's a repeat- but he may have posted it on several sites now- even his dad picked up on it):

Still Alive with GTAIV
By ctplante
“My favorite web site, Virtual Magic Kingdom (VMK) is closing May 21st. I’m sad and MAD! I can’t live without my friends on VMK. PLEASE sign my guestbook like a petition to SAVE VMK for me and my friends. Pass my site on to everyone you ...
Hardcasual - http://hardcasual.net

So why doesn't disney get it? All they are thinking about obviously is money.
The one theme concept sucks the kids into trying more and more sites. VMK is too all inclusive i guess. Why pay to play one game when you can pay to play several games. Princess has tried all of the virtual worlds. She gets so bored with all of them. None of them have the magic- the creative end and social aspect she craves. It's not the games she likes- its the people and there are some awesome people on VMK!
...if your heart is grieving, keep on believing!

:hug:

AmberDaze
04-30-2008, 09:34 PM
Link to the TV news story that just aired...Parents Plan To Boycott Disney Over Web Site Dilemma (http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/4/30/parents_plan_to_boycott_disney_over_web_site_dilem ma.html)

There is a link for comments...

Waiting for video...

redshoe
04-30-2008, 09:48 PM
Link to the TV news story that just aired...Parents Plan To Boycott Disney Over Web Site Dilemma (http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/4/30/parents_plan_to_boycott_disney_over_web_site_dilem ma.html)

There is a link for comments...

Waiting for video...

I commented, all right! ;)

I was very polite, but I did try to convey to them that they really didn't get to the true heart of the story. It's not about losing a free service, it's about losing our friends.

Disney Dreams
05-01-2008, 02:47 AM
Thank you Disney Dreams! Your post has stirred up so many other posts and comments in regards to princessmadiro's "blog" and her feelings about VMK closing.... So why doesn't disney get it?
Aww, no thanks needed. Was happy to incorporate her story as a real-life, true person's example of why VMK is more than "just a game."

As for why WDIG execs don't get it, I am almost at the point of believing it's as simple as, They don't want to. :confused3 But who knows.........

Link to the TV news story that just aired...Parents Plan To Boycott Disney Over Web Site Dilemma (http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/4/30/parents_plan_to_boycott_disney_over_web_site_dilem ma.html)
Thanks for link!

I commented, all right! ;) I was very polite, but I did try to convey to them that they really didn't get to the true heart of the story. It's not about losing a free service, it's about losing our friends.

:thumbsup2


Updated through here.

Please note: Starting Friday, I will be gone for a few days, most likely with no computer access for the entire time I'm gone. :scared1: I will update this thread on 2nd post with anything new upon my return next week.

- Dreams

mizmouse
05-01-2008, 03:15 AM
some media coverage in the works...

VMK Kids Unite is reporting an update which includes CNN contacting them!
http://vmkkidsunite.com/index.cfm
Updates:
...
April 28: Discussion is underway for a WDW Protest on the public highway leading to the kingdom.
April 28: Local media and CNN have contact us regarding covering the protest at Disneyland.

And there is also the NPR interview that is supposed to air around May 7th, it's discussed here: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1802329

Hope your trip is for fun Disney Dreams!

Disney Dreams
05-01-2008, 03:26 AM
VMK Kids Unite is reporting an update which includes CNN contacting them! http://vmkkidsunite.com/index.cfm
Hadn't put a link anywhere here because it's not (yet) media coverage, but I changed my mind and added it to the very first set of links under section that I called, "Save VMK Sites and Tools." Seems fitting there, as people on DIS can look there to find a link to that information if they need / want it. Thanks for making me think about that again.

Aware of Aengus' interview with NPR. Once it airs and we have a link of some type, I'll add it to the media coverage list.

Thanks for making sure no one misses anything.

- Dreams

mizmouse
05-01-2008, 03:43 AM
Thanks! maybe you can have a section called "In the Media Pipeline" for things that are attempting to get media buzz. Just a thought...

Thanks again for doing such a great job!!! :thumbsup2

redshoe
05-02-2008, 10:38 AM
Bump!

disvaclub92
05-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Moving this post to here so others can see. Also, updated link in second post to include this one.:goodvibes

Esmeralda, could you please look in to your crystal ball and tell us if Disney Internet Group is listening? lol

In the mean time, stay encouraged, there are VMK players still pushing forward with the campaign and the world is just getting our message. Let's just hope their hearts are listening and they decide to try the "pay to play" avenue.

This is the newest CNN iReport on the subject:

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-17943

Nice work MagicMontey!!


Here is another:

http://familyinternet.about.com/b/2008/04/28/disneys-virtual-magic-kingdom-to-close-in-may.htm

Candlz
05-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Bump

GoofyWaterCoaster
05-03-2008, 09:14 PM
If you want, here is my complete e-mailing list

vmk@disneyonline.com
bob.iger@disney.com
robert.a.iger@disney.com
john.pepper@disney.com
steve.wadsworth@disney.com
larry.shapiro@disney.com
bruce.gordon@disney.com
paul.yanover@disney.com
brad.davis@disney.com
lane.merrifield@disney.com
ad.albers@disney.com
edward.kummer@disney.com
tom.staggs@disney.com
andy.bird@disney.com
andy.mooney@disney.com
rich.ross@disney.com
jay.rasulo@disney.com
eric.freeman@disney.com
jason.davis@disney.com
steve.parkis@disney.com
Brandy.Phillips@disney.com
brent.woodford@disney.com
zenia.mucha@disney.com
zayda.vidal@disney.com

AmberDaze
05-04-2008, 01:08 AM
It took no time for places to pick up on the Disney "boycott" -- http://www.magicalmountain.net/WDWNewsDetail.asp?NewsID=1889

Poor Fairy!! She didn't even say the word boycott in her interview! :confused3

piratesLifeYoho
05-04-2008, 05:50 PM
*BUMP* to remind everyone of where our hard work has gotten us. lets keep it up!

Disney Dreams
05-06-2008, 10:16 AM
Thanks, Disvaclub, for adding Montey's while I was gone.

Good work with your mailing Goofy! Every voice counts.

Added the link you provided to 2nd post, Days.

I also found this article. Again, someone has picked up on VMK closing from another angle. This entire web site is dedicated to child safety. The author wrote about safe places on-line for kids to play, what parents should look at when their child selects a MMORPG - and the tragic (pending) loss of 1 of the safest, VMK. Added it to 2nd post. It's worth a read.

http://www.myparentime.com/articles/08/article683.shtml

Disney, you have a good thing here. Why close it down? (No, really, why? Not the promotion answer.)

Disney Dreams
05-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Added links to:
- VanillaIceCream's letter
- Spark CBC Radio interview
- DIS'ers flat mailings

Life's a bit busy atm, trying to stay up to date here. PLEASE Let me know if I missed anything.

- Dreams

Disney Dreams
05-09-2008, 04:35 PM
Updated second post with AP story. This is the storm we've been trying to build everyone! Great work VMK Kids Unite! You got the AP!!!

piratesLifeYoho
06-01-2008, 08:22 PM
wow, i was looking for this thread and surprized at how far back this was. i think this DIServes a bump so we dont forget!

Pencopenco_Friends
06-29-2008, 02:31 PM
Thanks for making this! Too bad it already closed...

GoofyWaterCoaster
06-29-2008, 02:38 PM
This thread is old too