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View Full Version : It is a shame!!!


DeeP
03-18-2002, 09:15 PM
I do not normally visit this board much even though I am a DVC owner because I do not care for all the DVC bashing that goes on here against DVC home resorts that are not that posters home resort. BWV seems to get the brunt of the bashing for whatever reason, I can not even imagine. As a DVC owner with my home resort at BWV, I have and have always found since I first discovered DIS in 1999, this continuous bashing of BWV very tiresome, offending, and stupid. That is why I have avoided this board for the vast majority of the many hours and posts I spend/or have made on DIS in the past almost 3 years. However, within the past couple of days, I checked this board for any new DVC news and then while I usually go to another board, because as previously stated the atmosphere here is too much conflict for me, this time I responded to yet again, another BWV bashing, defending my DVC home. Consequently, I have spent some time on this board in the past 2 days.

I just recently read a post titled: "OKW vs BWV vs VWL vs BCV any one stay at all 4"

What is such a shame is that this post is from a DVC owner with her home resort at BWV and because of all the stupid, petty BWV bashing that takes place on this board, this DVC owner is starting to second guess staying in her home resort for the FIRST time!
This is really a shame! To make a new DVC owner not be excited about their first stay in their home resort and to doubt their choice is so sad! This should be a happy, can't wait to get there time, not a did I make the right choice, what should I do time. It is really very sad and a shame that what should be a joyous occasion has turned into a anxiety ridden occasion. How dare anyone take the joy and excitement of a new DVC owner's FIRST stay at their home resort away from them?

Every post that I have read bashing another DVC property always seems to be started by a OKW owner and this is going back in the almost 3 years I have been reading DIS. This is not friendly rivarly, this is a disgrace!!!!

Now go ahead, bash me, flame me all you want. But it is still a shame and very sad and not what DVC is supposed to be all about!

CaptainMidnight
03-18-2002, 09:38 PM
I agree, it's absurd, and very tiresome. And it seems to point back to the same people, posting the same bias garbage, that is only designed to provoke an aurgument, or some other twisted purpose. But, the more these problems are pointed out, the more some posters seem wrongly encouraged. My understanding is that moderators have made some efforts to contact and ask for behavioral change. I applaud them on those efforts.

I hate to hear that it has caused you the level of disslike to the point where you don't visit these boards. I am also concerned and disappointed by this continuing trend.

Another unpleasant trend I see by some posters is to include rude comments and innappropriate language in thier signature lines. It is unnecessary, and inconsiderate.

I would like to see both practices stopped and a new level of common courtesy and mutal respect adopted, (and I apply those standards to myself, I have slipped on occasion).

My hats off to you for standing up and making your dissatisfaction with the recent practices known. You are certainly not alone in your view.

I hope you'll return to visiting more often, and not let the innappropriate conduct by a couple of posters keep you from enjoying the wonderful advice and sense of DVC community offerred by the majority. Perhaps if more people speak up, the message will finally get through.

wdwendyd
03-18-2002, 11:06 PM
I do not like the bashing either. I think it is meant to be funny but it isn't. :(
Let's all take a pledge to be kind and courteous and NO BASHING! (This will be easy for me because I love ALL the DVC resorts!) :D

nydizfan
03-19-2002, 12:20 AM
me thinks that you are taking all this STUFF way too seriously.(sp) . Why bother defending your resort. You say its Stupid and if it is ... dont respond....And if you want to respond .. well get ready for the answer. thats just the way it is here. Some love OKW... me too... Some love BW. Sure you may not love my resort and I may not love yours .... but to call some of us STUPID well that is a DISGRACE... sorry dave:smooth:

CaptainMidnight
03-19-2002, 06:28 AM
nydizfan,
I think your missing the point. It's not about the resorts as much as it is about the trend of a lack of common courtesy, mutual respect. This is a call for a higher standard. Agreed that you don't have to get down in the gutter with those in it through thier inappropriate language in signatures and constantly aurgumentative posts, but the constant presentation of those is not needed here either.

We have every right to raise the concern and collectively let those offenders know it is not appreciated and we would like it stopped. Wait, I'll change that to "I" and just speak for myself.

The use of the word "stupid" as I read it clearly referred to the behavior, not the persons. And, my opinion is that the behavior is stupid. Persons displaying that behavior can easily stop, now that they are aware that there is a call to do so. If not, there is obviously a bigger problem beyond the scope of these boards to address.

DebbieB
03-19-2002, 07:21 AM
I'm all for a lively discussion of likes and dislikes of different resorts. But cut the sarcasm and exaggerations and stick to the facts. Sarcastic remarks are frequently posted strictly to enflame others. For example, someone posted that BCV was built to correct all the mistakes of BWV. Then the next poster agreed. Then I said what mistakes are you referring to? The next 2 posts were "we weren't serious". Putting a :D doesn't excuse the original intent.

I know we shouldn't take this all so seriously, we know there are certain people who love to start arguments and keep them going. But sometimes it's hard to ignore. I wish I had a $1 for everytime I started to post something in response (on this board and others) and then changed my mind thinking I'm not go to give them what they want (which is to get people riled up).

JonHM
03-19-2002, 07:51 AM
Nydizfan, I agree, I think you're missing the point. It is NOT about BWV vs. OKW and saying that someone likes one better than the other. I know what bothers me is when it starts to sound like little kids on a playground screaming at each other that their Dad can beat up the other kid's Dad.

Now, to be honest, it's not all THAT much of the time that it degrades to that level. To DeeP, I would urge you to try spending more time over here and speak out when you see something that you don't like. The same thing bothers me, but really, it hasn't been happening much at all recently until the past couple of days. The old resort wars somehow got launched again in the past 5 days or so, in a thread that wasn't even intended to be a resort vs. resort thread. I believe it was a thread asking about the points for a Grand Villa at Boardwalk vs. the points for a Grand Villa at OKW, a simple question that degraded into the old schoolyard scrum.

To be honest, I used to think that those types of arguments were always started by the diehard OKW contingent, but I have seen various occasions (including the most recent one, I believe) now where the reverse was true. I think that the 'BWV defenders' who start such arguments, however, are just playing into the hands of those who want the resort wars to come back. Then the old resort war veterans play innocent, because they didn't start it, but at that point they jump in full force, and can often get nasty.

I think we have to eliminate the blame portion of this : I don't think it's relevant or accurate to say that people on one side or the other are more or less guilty in the mudslinging: The mudslinging itself should stop no matter who it is that's throwing it.

Now, when these threads arise, clearly, there ARE some posters who are extremely lighthearted and funny in their 'attacks' on the other resorts. But for every poster that's lighthearted and funny, there are *at least* one that are meanspirited and nasty in their approach. If we can't be civil to each other having these kinds of discussions, then maybe we shouldn't have them at all.

nydizfan
03-19-2002, 07:58 AM
Capt and jonHM: I stand corrected. After reading Deep's post, I have seen where I misunderstood some points. thanks dave

CaptainMidnight
03-19-2002, 08:04 AM
nydizfan,
Nice post, thanks for sharing.

JonHM,
But for every poster that's lighthearted and funny, there are *at least* one that are meanspirited and nasty in their approach. If we can't be civil to each other having these kinds of discussions, then maybe we shouldn't have them at all.

Agreed.

Excellent point, thank you for sharing it.

crisi
03-19-2002, 09:09 AM
I'm a newbie here, but I want to share my experience.

There are a lot of people who drive by this board (like me) while trying to decide whether to buy DVC or not. This is a huge decision and - as I've posted before - this is not the place to come if you want to be talked out of it! Which is fine, I think being a DVC booster is great.

But when people spend time sniping at resorts, newbies don't get the in jokes. They don't understand Richyams facination with OKW is just him. They may feel that they need to get into OKW through a resale - when they are really VWL type people, or (oh, my) BWV people. They may end up in a resort they aren't happy with, or spend their time regretting not getting into a resort they have never stayed at because it is so much better.

I'll disagree with the OP - if you hang around for a while you learn that there are plenty of BWV admirerers (The recent "trade resorts" thread had a lot of BWV fans), but you have to be persistant, and you have to learn the personalities. And someone anxious to buy their contract may not figure that out before they spend $10k or more.

One of the pieces of advice that is often given is go down and look before you buy. This is decent advice - but not everyone has the time or money to get to Orlando to look at real estate. They trust (like I do) that all the Disney resorts are going to be done with Disney quality, and then evaluate them from paper based on the atmosphere described by people on boards like this.

Do the newbies a favor and read your posts before you hit submit asking yourself "if this were the first thread I'd read about DVC, what am I thinking"

Muushka
03-19-2002, 09:12 AM
The sad thing is that all of these comments made in "fun":D
may in fact, devalue a resort ($). I look at the rent/trade board and notice people who are not even DVC owners or ever stayed at any DVC have an opinin as to where and why they want to rent points at a certain DVC location.

As an owner at the red-headed stepchild VWL (which, according to these boards, has a lousy location AND teeny-tiny rooms), well it is getting very tiresome.

Now when I read the comments, I just say

I HEAR CLICKING NOISES

and hope that they will stop.

Just wondering why people are so insecure about their purchases that they need to put other DVC locations down?

Joeblack
03-19-2002, 09:19 AM
DeeP:

I totally agree with you. I have posted a couple of times complaining about this...especially when I read the same boring posts about the "tiny" rooms at BWV or WLV, or the marathon to get to your room, or the spooky clown waterslide, etc. I don't see the point in bringing BWV down unless a poster has a bad case of "sour grapes."

Some may say that those factors are objective......but actually..they aren't. Size is a bit smaller than OKW, but it is more than adequate and way larger than any deluxe hotel in the world....I have stayed at the farthest wing in the BWV and actually enjoyed the 1 minute marathon...... The clown slide...I find it to be the best slide in a resort pool and love the themeing.

I stayed at OKW and loved it there. There were pros and cons compared to any other DVC resort, but I felt a member of OKW all the same.


To the poster who was having doubts about staying at the BW...well, all I can say is..you will be blown away once you stay there.

fireplug
03-19-2002, 09:37 AM
I can see telling everyone if you had an issue on your stay. That is why I visit here , to get different views and or ideas. But while each person is entitled to their opinion no one should find fault with the things other people like or dislike. If we all liked the same sort of things all the DVC resort would be identical. I think we all could be understanding of others and try to be more cordial if someone has a different viewpoint.

Steve

Tinker Bell
03-19-2002, 09:51 AM
I think this is a good discussion to have as I think is important for people to see how different people have different reactions to the tone and style of posters. FOR ME, BWV is the unequivocal best choice. I am always happy to tell people why itís a good fit for me. At the same time, the boosters for other resorts have never offended me. If I see a one sided discussion, I may chime in but I don't see the need to rebut every comment all the time.

I don't share the view that people that aggressively opine about the relative merits of their favorite DVC resort need to be reined in or otherwise sanctioned. At the same time, we are a community and I think it is entirely appropriate for people to speak up when they think someone has crossed the line.

CaptDave
03-19-2002, 09:56 AM
(first post from a lurker who finally decided it was time to get involved)

I own in BWV, VWL and now BCV, and I prefer BWV because of the location. I like being able to walk to MGM and Epcot, which are the two parks we frequent. I find the buses reasonably reliable for the ocassioanl MK and AK visits, and the magic on demand system has made them even more effective. On the other hand, I will not stay at OKW again. After 2 stays, I have decided that the transportation system there is unacceptable.

I'm not saying this to start up the "OKW vs BWV" or the "Why don't you drive if you have a car?" debates. I'm saying it because that's the way it is. I have canceled spur of the moment trips to WDW rather than stay at OKW again.

I've given up trying to defend my position on this issue, just like I've stopped apologizing for being a Florida resident with all the resident discounts that all DVC members think they should get.

I'm glad we're passionate about our home resorts and our memberships, but we're past flogging a dead horse - we've flogged through the horse, into the ground and will be hitting China any time.

It's time to concentrate on how to best utilize the resorts and the parks, and to show a unified front, not only for new/potential DVC members, but for our own sake. If we don't like something at DVC, we can't convince anyone at DVC hq to act - we're balkanized over this sort of minor thing.

^^^ SnowBunny ^^^
03-19-2002, 10:33 AM
If you want to see some REAL bashing? Just hop over to the Resorts Board and look up some posts on AS v. Mod's etc., ....... this is small potatoes compared to some of the heated arguments over there! ;)

ripleysmom
03-19-2002, 10:37 AM
Great post DeeP!! I rarely post anything regarding the resort wars because I can't speak to them. I have only stayed at BWV and loved it. Hopefully I will get to try all of the resorts at one time or another.

Capt. Midnight if you don't like the signatures you are looking at then perhaps you should shut them off. That can be done.

HeatherPage
03-19-2002, 10:52 AM
Dee,
the post you are referring to is mine, but this will be my second time staying at BWV (the first time was in 1999 with my mom for 4 days) but this will be my husband's and baby's first time. I loved it but it was such a short stay that I didn't get to experience enough of it to make a decision re: the other resorts. To me I think you need a good week to really get a feel for the place. I do enjoy the BW but for me there seems to be so many choices to stay that my head is/was spinning. Your post to my reply though convinced me to stay at BW again - thank you! I hope I haven't been the cause for you being upset. I really don't think any "bashing" goes on here, I think that some people are just really passionate about where they own. But I do plan on trying all the DVC resorts at WDW before 2042 :D

akghutton
03-19-2002, 02:10 PM
I agree that all of the resort bashing is very tiresome. In the wake of 9/11, doesn't this bickering over something so "meaningless" in the scheme of things seem petty and pathetic? We should all consider overselves lucky and try to find more productive things to do with our time than try to incite arguements.

Jen D
03-19-2002, 02:58 PM
I lurk and occasionally post because I am considering buying into DVC. I've read all these threads, including the most recent grand villa thread, and to be honest, I do find the "resort wars" very funny and don't take them particularly seriously. I think most posters-- and prospective buyers-- are capable of determining the serious remarks (you may not like OKW because there is no pool slide) from the not-so-serious (you may not like OKW because it is full of folks so feeble they can't handle a walk to the car ;) ). I guess I might feel differently if I were an owner, but I doubt it. I take the rivalry about as seriously as I would take a rivalry between two college fraternities; which is to say, not very seriously. Especially since the arguments are about resorts that are, face it, pretty similar in a lot of ways.

JonHM
03-19-2002, 03:08 PM
I don't think that knowing who is serious or not is the main issue. I think the thing that I have a problem with is that when these 'debates' arise, as with the GV thread, there are some people who argue in a very nasty and mean spirited way.

I am not arguing for any sort of censorship or punishment or anything like that - just calling for people to think before they post, and to please restrain themselves from being nasty when threads like this arise.

crazyaboutdisney
03-19-2002, 03:35 PM
I love all the dvc resorts!!!!! It is great to be able to go and stay at great resorts with different locations and rooms. How can anybody think one is better than another, they are all SUPER!! Relax and enjoy!!!

Towncrier
03-19-2002, 03:44 PM
Just a few comments from the trenches. We have been OKW owners since 1995. When BWV opened, we went to a presentation and were not impressed enough with the resort to add on. It cost more points to stay there. It was a hotel. It just didn't suit our needs. I think that part of our initial impression with BWV was that the DVC folks who were there to sell the product didn't do BWV justice. In 2000, we had the opportunity to stay 4 nights at BWV. I loved it, mostly due to the location. We were without a car on that particular trip, so the location was most important to getting the most out of our short stay at WDW. I fell in love with the Boardwalk area. When DIScon 2001 was announced, I knew that I HAD to stay somewhere close to the action. I ended up at the Dolphin since I didn't have any points left to borrow, but I would have gladly stayed at BWV. OKW was just too far from the action to be practical for DIScon. With DIScon 2002 coming up in 8 months, I am hoping to get into either a BWV or BCV studio for the event.

I don't believe that I have ever publicly bashed any DVC resort. My wife and I had "issues" with the DVC at Hilton Head and we made our concerns known to DVC management. But I didn't see the point in bashing the resort simply for the sake of bashing.

I don't spend enough time here on the DVC Boards to know who or what is the culprit, nor do I particularly care. I have always this board to be a great resource in all things DVC.

Muushka
03-19-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by ^^^ SnowBunny ^^^
If you want to see some REAL bashing? Just hop over to the Resorts Board and look up some posts on AS v. Mod's etc., ....... this is small potatoes compared to some of the heated arguments over there! ;)

Yeah, except we do not have a vested interest in Disney owned resorts.

ShirleyKME
03-19-2002, 03:55 PM
Just my 2 cents... This is a general comment about all the boards, not just DVC.
I am a almost daily browser/lurker on these boards. I dont post often but prefer to read and consider others' ideas. The number 1 reason I visit the DIS boards is to feel connection to Disney and to get my daily "Disney fix" .
The time I spend on these boards is not always filled with that warm fuzzy "everybody loves Disney" feeling - which is to be understood.
I tend to take a lot of the posts for what they are: people trying to stir up an little trouble, people trying to get someone to respond (looking for that negative attention) or people who genuinely dont care about Disney like I do.
So I still lurk around read the posts that I want and don't read the ones that I know will ruin my "disney fix".
Like I said thats only my opinion
Shirley
:rolleyes:

DaveH
03-19-2002, 04:25 PM
I like this thread because to me the common thing that is being brought up is common courtesy. I find most of the my resort is better than your resort on the :confused: side mean or otherwise. Most of my trips to WDW have been either offsite at a Knights Inn, Days Inn kind of hotel, or onsite when Port Orleans was the value hotel or All Stars. We bought into DVC last year. I have been happy with every room and location we have stayed at except Dixie Landings, which for us we did not like the resort, but I can see others liking it. We stayed one night in an OKW studio, then 5 nights at VWL 1 bedroom and then 1 night at OKW 1 bedroom. The OKW rooms are bigger. Both resorts have thier good and bad points. I have to laugh at folks worring about which view I want so bad. I can understand distance to bus stop or pool and like. Yes DVC is a good chunk of change for us, but I have been very happy with our choice and these boards have been very helpful to us last year when my step daughter pulled out 10 days prior to leaving. DVCreg and WebmasterDoc where great in answering some of our concerns. So folks relaxe and enjoy.

Dean
03-19-2002, 06:35 PM
Personally, I find this board about as cordial as any I've ever been on. Does that mean nothing offensive is never said, of course not. I prefer OKW but like all of the other resorts as well. I do find some aspects of OKW and other resort more or less desirable depending on the issue at hand and don't mind addressing those issues when the time seems appropriate. If this is seen as bashing, then I stand accused but I always try to stick to the facts or post my feelings in the appropriate way. While I agree that common courtesy is in order, I would vote against a plain vanilla board. I would also run away from a board that only dealt with the positives. I know I was on the old Prodigy board where everytime someone posted anything at all not positve about DVC, the party line was "if you don't like it, sell". I found that board pretty disgusting at times.

ncligs
03-19-2002, 07:07 PM
I find these boards quite informative and entertaining:p . I think that the majority of DVC members and lurkers enjoy the so called "bashing". Why is it that the resort wars have the "Most Views" and responses???Is it because most DVC members don't take it so personal as some others. I agree with Dean, if everything was "sugarcoated" and "positive", I wouldn't come to this forum hardly at all.
I think all DVC members know that all the DVC Resorts are 1st Class and beautiful. And each one has its positive's and negatives.
I just found out about this forum about 4 months ago. And we bought into DVC almost 4 years ago.I have learned more about the resorts in the last 4 months, than the previous 3 years from the people on this forum, whether it was good or bad. This is a free country and if people want to make somebody smile :) once in a while, I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as the poster doesn't cross the line, and personally attack another poster.
By the way, check back the the last 1-3 months. The postings that have the so called "resort wars" always have the most views. I wonder why?????? ;)

RLevy29
03-19-2002, 07:28 PM
Personally I have never understood the arguments about what DVC resort is better. When we bought into DVC it was into OKW but the other options were our main reason for buying. So far I have stayed in BWV, OKW, and HHI. I loved them all! We are also using our points to go to the Grand Californian next week. We are planning to go to Vero Beach in 2003.The one advantage of a home resort is the 11th month window to make reservations. Sometimes this matters and sometimes it doesn't. The point is ,the options are good and they are getting even better.
Resort bashing does not help people who are trying to make a decision to buy into DVC. Just my two cents.

CaptainMidnight
03-19-2002, 08:13 PM
Capt. Midnight if you don't like the signatures you are looking at then perhaps you should shut them off. That can be done.

Oh...yes.....of course...... that makes soooooo much more sense than a discusison of whether posters can start displaying a greater degree of common courtesy to one another.......

At least you removed the quote that you used to have in your signature referring to someone else's "leather face" or something like that.

In my humble opinion, a discussion asking for a greater degree of common courtesy and a reduction in inappropriate statements is not unreasonable.

Richyams
03-19-2002, 08:32 PM
How come my ears are ringing?????

nydizfan
03-19-2002, 08:49 PM
great post Capt. This thread is really getting good. dave:smooth:

Jen D
03-19-2002, 09:32 PM
I guess I just haven't seen or read anything I would characterize as mean-spirited, in the "resort wars" thread. More importantly, I don't see anything I would characterize as "personal." I don't know why it should upset someone if someone else doesn't like their resort. That's just me, though.

I guess I'm with Dean-- this place would be pretty slow-- and not very useful-- if everyone was just holding hands singing "It's a Small World."

And as far as "resort bashing"-- not my expression-- being unhelpful for prospective DVC buyers, I respectfully disagree. Again, most of us can discard (while enjoying) the comments that are hyperbolic, funny-- but other criticisms can and should be listened to. If I was trying to pick a place to buy into, and everyone simply told me they were all wonderful but in different ways, that's fine-- although not much different that what I can get from my DVC sales guide. But when people make comments that are more-- er- colorful-- frankly, it gives me a better feeling for the place. It gives me perspective. Richyams has not sold me on OKW by any means-- I'm still leaning towards the BW-area resorts-- but his posts certainly have given me a colorful picture of what it is people like about OKW, and the differences between that resort and the other WDW DVC resorts.

Patpat15
03-19-2002, 09:48 PM
I agree, I read the post board every day and very rarely make replies. It always seems like the same complainers. The same names keep coming up.

We stayed for the first time last Feb at BWV our home resort with my 3 kids and it was the best week of our life. They were courteous and amazing. Some people will just complain about everything anyway, they have issues, many which probably have nothing to do with DVC.

KNWVIKING
03-19-2002, 09:55 PM
......
We own at OKW and VWL and possibly BCV in the near future. We've stayed at OKW,BWV,VWL & HHI. In May we're going to Vero. Hopefully in Oct we'll be at BCV. Every place we've stayed, we've loved and for different reasons. FOR US, VWL is the only place to stay at Christmas because of the decor and the boatride to MK is short and fun. BWV,(or BCV) is for Oct and the F&W festival. May is for OKW with the car right outside our door for jetting straight to the water parks and activities off property. Since we usually drive down from NJ, we like to hit HHI for a couple days on the way home to relax and break up the long trip home. We can all list our pro's & con's for all the resorts we've stayed in and generally we all try to keep it light hearted. We all brag up the good points of our home resorts & exagerate the bad parts of others, but I personally have never been offended by anyones comments.

Now,if you want to see ugly, let someone who owns at Westgate come in here and start talking trash about OKW or VWL ...........

Caskbill
03-19-2002, 10:08 PM
I keep hearing that each resort has it's good points and bad points. I disagree. I don't really think there are 'bad' points, only 'good' points. These are all first class resorts. So OKW rooms are bigger, that's a good point, but it doesn't by default make BWV, VWL or BCV rooms 'bad'. Likewise BWV and BCV's have a great location, a 'good' point. It doesn't make OKW or VWL locations 'bad'.

All the resorts in my opinion have only 'good' points about them. The only difference is the 'good' points are different for the different resorts.

I have my personal preferences in a resort style. Whichever resort's 'good' points most closely align with my preferences will obviously become my 'favorite' resort. Everyone else's preferences will align differently, and that will determine their 'favorite' resort.

N.Y. and L.A. are two great cities, but probably couldn't be any more different from each other than two cities could be. Many New Yorkers would hate the L.A. lifestyle, while conversely many L.A. residents would hate the New York life style. That's called personal preference, and doesn't detract one iota from either city.

Likewise are the DVC resorts.

KNWVIKING
03-20-2002, 08:35 AM
I understand the point your trying make and somewhat agree with you- the point about the larger OKW rooms not making by default the smaller BWV rooms bad. But I do think there are bad or at least inconvienant parts to all the resorts. The hallways in BWV. The buses & "fitness" center at OKW. The parking at BWV and VWL. I think my perfect resort would be within a 5 minute walking distance to all parks,I could park outside my room, I had both the main pool at OKW and SAB to chose from, no parking or street views, huge studios that offered one king or two queens....... well,you get my point. Obviously not even Disney can pull this off, or even if they could I doubt I could afford it. Every resort has something someone is not going to like, but I think we all knew that when we bought.

JonHM
03-20-2002, 08:51 AM
and disagree with ncligs. ABSOLUTELY, we don't want people to withhold complaints, to only say positive things. When I first got on the DIS boards, there were some posters on the resorts board who were *incensed* at the Unofficial Guide to Disney World, a book that I have always viewed as invaluable for it's honesty and criticism, because they were upset that it was negative about some things. Personally, I thought that that was just plain silly. What good would a book like that be if it never criticized anything? And by the same token, what good would these boards be if everyone agreed, and no one ever criticized anything at WDW or within DVC?

Certainly, we want people to air their views - the only thing I would wish for is that people do it in a way that does not become an attack on others on the board. And no, it doesn't HAVE to have a personal name in it to be an attack. We are simply talking about common courtesy here, NOT about having people refrain from expressing their opinions.

On a side note, Dean, you have always stuck with facts and stayed out of any attacks, at least in all the threads that I have read. It is not that many people who do get nasty, but it makes a big impression when it does happen, and on the resort war threads, it happens a lot more than anywhere else here.

Ncligs, the big thing I disagree with you about is equating the number of posts on a thread to people 'enjoying' the thread. I'm sure there are plenty of people reading it who do enjoy it, like yourself, and there are *also* plenty of people reading and posting to it who keep reading and responding to it because they're so worked up and upset. Clearly, those threads are very emotional for a lot of people, but there's no connection between number of posts and people's 'enjoyment' of a thread... say, you're not a statistician, are you? ;)

As far as signatures go, I have never seen anything offensive in anyone's signature - sometimes perplexing, but not offensive. :) But who knows, maybe I don't pay enough attention. ;)

GraceDVC
03-20-2002, 10:09 AM
Now that it has come to light that some people become disenchanted after hearing all the bashing on this board, I must admit that it has happened to me also.

I love being a DVC owner!! When I need a "Disney fix," I do surf the Resorts and DVC boards both, with the Disneytrips radio playing in the background for good measure!! Most of the time, I come away happy and informed about the latest DVC news.

I own only at OKW (1995) and do love it there. I also have visited other Disney resorts -- including the Contemporary, Caribbean Beach, Wilderness Lodge, Buena Vista Palace, and the Boardwalk Villas and loved them all. I now look forward to visiting the new Beach Club Villas this summer with the same excited anticipation that I have had before visiting each of the other resorts. Our reason for becoming a DVC member initally was to be able to switch to our beloved Contemporary Resort (which had become too expensive for us for a 10-day stay, which we usually request being from the New York area).

What I am trying to say is that owning a DVC resort has made me and my family so very happy -- we have the choice to visit at any Disney resort at any time of the year. Each resort, be it a DVC property or not, offers so many options for us as members. What I don't like to think about is that someone sitting next to us at the pool is one of those bashers, who feels that particular resort is his or her resort, and would muddy our happiness with a discussion extolling his/her resort's superior benefits! These resorts, through our DVC contract, belong to each of us to use whenever we wish. The "use year" issue is the only reason I would buy into another DVC resort -- and that would mean I would have to buy into all of them!! So, with careful planning, we have managed to see all the WDW resorts, enjoy them all, and be grateful to belong.

Sorry for the long, sometimes ambling message, but I want our feeling of happiness being a DVC member to overcome the sometimes negative postings.

sgtpet
03-20-2002, 10:48 AM
I think the resort arguments are boring. I think each DVC resort has value. They have good and bad points that we seem to detail over and over again. The fights are monotonous.


I think negative criticism is a good thing and a valuable tool for a potential buyer into DVC.

baileybrad
03-20-2002, 10:57 AM
if an individual enjoys their home resort, what does it matter what another poster has to say....really. Seems to me that it is really "water off of a duck's back". It is not as if what a disgruntled, argumentative or unhappy visitor to a resort is going to change my impression of what I have experienced firsthand.

MinnieMe2
03-20-2002, 11:15 AM
Good thread. I've become a lurker because of all the griping and sniping. Though I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I also think we need to express our opinions as inoffensively and carefully as possible. And some people here don't even try. My Ignore List keeps getting longer and longer.

And the sad thing is, DVC is wonderful. It has something for everybody, as endless a variety of options as there are people to use the resorts. I'm grateful to have this opportunity, so from now on I'll only ask specific questions when I need to and otherwise play quietly in my own corner of this particular playground. There are too many bullies here....

CaptainMidnight
03-20-2002, 11:41 AM
so from now on I'll only ask specific questions when I need to and otherwise play quietly in my own corner of this particular playground. There are too many bullies here....

This is truely sad, and completely un called for. Why should a few behaviorally challenged individuals ruin the enjoyment these boards and discussions can provide for the majority. I'm not talking about criticism about some DVC issue, I like to hear the good and the bad. You can easily communicate a concern in a courteous manner. I'm talking about outright rudeness displayed to fellow posters on a continuing and repetative basis.

Others above have said it much better than I, the problem is not which resort is better or worse and why, it is the lack of common courtesy, mutual respect, and plain manners that some posters continually fail to display in exchanges. This is not the debate board, go play silly discourtesy games over there.

Several posters have indicated above that these behavior problems described in the posts above are limiting thier enjoyment of these boards, and in some cases the frequency with which they like to visit them. I don't think it is right for a very small minority of people to continue to do that with out being called on it, and complaints to be voiced.

I'm voicing the complaint here and now, as are others. The rudeness needs to end. Not just for a little while, like after admonishment by a moderator (and in some cases my understanding is the moderators have tried to coach the frequent offenders) but the rude communcation needs to end on this board on a permanent basis, and I include my own communication in there. My communication to be free from rude comments as well, and I'll be the first to admit there are times I get a little fed up and I have slipped. I apologize to my fellow posters for the times that has happenned.

Perhaps those posters who personaly recognize their complicity in the concerns raised above can also take this opportunity to offer an apology to this forum.

Whether you think it is OK or not, or realize it or not, you can see from several comments listed above that people who have invested large amounts of money in DVC and would like to come here to enjoy a sense of community around that investment are less likely to do so as a direct response to the rudeness they percieve as coming across repetitively from some posters. Why would anyone want to continue doing this now knowing they are harming (maybe that's too strong, maybe limiting the enjoyment of) others.

Whatever selfish satisfaction is gained from being deliberately rude, shouldn't impinge on others to the degree some people describe above. Plainly, it is just not right.

Jimbo
03-20-2002, 12:03 PM
Cripes, get over yourself!

Richyams
03-20-2002, 12:37 PM
Would you please show me some examples of this rudeness???

JonHM
03-20-2002, 12:49 PM
Personally, I think it would be a very bad idea to begin posting quotes from specific people. That would constitute calling people out and make this thread much more personal than it should be. If there are any specific quotes that need to be addressed, it should fall to the moderators to address them and deal with the individual privately. This thread has been more about the need to use common courtesy and civility - we don't want this to degenerate and go where it might go if people start posting quotes of each other.

Johnnie Fedora
03-20-2002, 12:57 PM
It's all how you look at it. Some think the Three Stooges are bashers, others just think their funny. Personnaly, I like the variety of opinions seen here. If there wasn't a little bashing that goes on, this board would be an endless stream of "welcome homes". Nothing wrong with that, but I think most would find that boring.

Now go to your corners and when the bell rings, come out swinging!!

Velvet Gloved Johnnie :D ;) :D

CaptainMidnight
03-20-2002, 12:58 PM
Personally, I think it would be a very bad idea to begin posting quotes from specific people. That would constitute calling people out and make this thread much more personal than it should be. If there are any specific quotes that need to be addressed, it should fall to the moderators to address them and deal with the individual privately. This thread has been more about the need to use common courtesy and civility - we don't want this to degenerate and go where it might go if people start posting quotes of each other.

Agreed. Excellent perspective, thank you for sharing.

Jen D
03-20-2002, 02:57 PM
The call for quotes is useful, though, since there has been a rather sanctimonious bidding for the nameless guilty to come forth and make a blanket apology for anything they may have ever said that may have ever upset anyone. Frankly, the few examples that have been given are not convincing. Someone complained about a joke that BCV was built to "fix the mistakes they made with BWV." It was stated to be a joke, and frankly, why should this hurt the feelings of a BWV owner if they don't agree? If the "joker" has provided lousy evidence to support his claim, then say so and expose him for the dope he is. That's debate.

If statements are truly "hurtful", meaning, personal and mean-spirited, then they should be reported to a moderator and dealt with. But how much hand holding does someone deserve if they can't handle hearing that a lot of people think their resort pool is lame?

ncligs
03-20-2002, 04:04 PM
JonHM,

Did you happen to notice the total number of "views" and "posts" on this subject??
;)
I rest my case!!!!!:D


P.S. 47 posts and 2161 views as of now.........;)

CaptainMidnight
03-20-2002, 06:36 PM
So the way that the "we need to post quotes" strategy works is that someone goes out and tries to find an example that may or may not be good and posts it. Then, several people jump on it to poke holes in it, and if moderately successful in doing that jump up and claim "see, the whole aurgument is invalid" because the example picked wasn't a good one. That avoidance approach and aurgument strategy won't negate the problems being described here.

The other aurgument approach we're hearing is to take points to the extreme to try to show they aren't valid -- nobody is calling for someone to apologize for every wrong they may have ever done. Calling it sanctimonious? Perhaps....

If a person decides the shoe fits regarding continually posting rude replies and being excessively and discourteously aurgumentative, and is willing to come forth and and offer to make a change, that's great. If they can't come forth in a public forum, but are still willing to commit to a higher level of civility, great.

This isn't a majority rules issue, this isn't a call that everyone must unanimously agree that this problem is occurring in every incidence that it is and that everyone must be able to cite every incident of it occurring (I know - probably falls in the taking to extreme category). This isn't a debate with a winning and a loosing side.

It's really quite simple, we have several individuals, even if they are in the minority, who are describing in the posts above that the absence of courtesy by a minor number of posters is causing them to avoid posting, to visit less often, and alienating them from participating in this DVC community forum. Even if you don't personally see it, or you don't absolutely agree with these people; regardless if you want to call us whimps because we are describing to you that we feel this way, the reoccurring lack of civility is a problem for some of us.

Trying to deny that some people feel this way can no longer happen, people do feel that there is a lack of common courtesy. It is clearly communicated above by more than one person. There is a problem, and claiming denial doesn't alter that fact. Too many people are aggreeing and describing its negative effects.

Now that everyone who reads this is aware, whether they agree or not, should behavior that causes other people to feel this way continue? Why would anyone want to do that?
Posters must decide for themselves. Finger pointing by posting quotes attached to people's names goes against the level of courtesy that is being advocated here. If the shoe fits, decide for yourself to make a change, and avoid causing others these negative feelings. Why not? Why would anyone want to be the cause through thier behavior the negative consequences described above? What's the point? This isn't rocket science, lets agree to a high level of civility and common courtesy, and hold ourselves accountable. What is the purpose of aurguing against that?

Am I pontificating and going on too much? Sure I am, I'm not a very good poster and don't write very well, but is that really a valid reason not to agree to a higher level of courtesy and civility when posting here? Throwing stones at me won't negate the main issue.
Several people above are stating that escessive rudeness and discourtesy by a small minority of posters is a problem. Lets solve it.

JonHM
03-22-2002, 09:56 AM
I don't think that anyone should come forth and apologize, and don't remember that being called for. If it has been, though, I disagree with that the same way I disagree with the call for quotes. The only thing that's important is for people to realize the impact their posts may have on others - that they should try to think before they post.

I agree with you that when there are specific posts that are hurtful or nasty that they should be reported to a moderator and that it should fall to the moderator to clear the issue up personally with the poster - not out in public.

sgtdisney
03-22-2002, 01:47 PM
People come into these forums looking for people's opinions on the DVC and it's resorts. The funny thing about opinions is everyone has one, everyone's is different and everyone expresses them differently. What is one person's constructive criticism is another's out and out bashing. It is up to the reader to decide which is which. If you really want to know which resort is best, you should visit them all and decide for yourself. Because what makes one resort the best to me, may make it the worst to you.

Just my .02 cents.

DVCNuts
03-22-2002, 06:40 PM
I have a great deal of fun reading these threads. Some people take themselves soooo seriously. I don't.

I don't really think there's a whole lotta difference between the resorts when you get right down to it. Regardless of where you park your car, you're STILL going to walk about 8 miles a day. And you'll probably eat and drink too much while doing it. So it all balances out.

I am the "dope" who mused that BCV was DVC's answer to the question "How can we fix all the mistakes we made at BWV?"

I was kidding. That's what I do. I'm a kidder.

But I didn't call anybody a "dope. " I am very hurt, distressed and humiliated that I would be characterized as a short, mute dwarf with large ears who never speaks, and cohabitates with 7 other such fellows with equally unique characteristics.

I'm still kidding.

Jen D
03-22-2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by DVCNuts
I am the "dope" who mused that BCV was DVC's answer to the question "How can we fix all the mistakes we made at BWV?"

I was kidding. That's what I do. I'm a kidder.

But I didn't call anybody a "dope. " I am very hurt, distressed and humiliated that I would be characterized as a short, mute dwarf with large ears who never speaks, and cohabitates with 7 other such fellows with equally unique characteristics.

I'm still kidding.

LOL! D'oh! I knew someone was going to bust me for namecalling with the word "dope", so I'm glad it turned out to be someone with a sense of humor. :)

Dopey is everyone's favorite, anyway.

gscott8075
03-23-2002, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by CaptainMidnight


Oh...yes.....of course...... that makes soooooo much more sense than a discusison of whether posters can start displaying a greater degree of common courtesy to one another.......

At least you removed the quote that you used to have in your signature referring to someone else's "leather face" or something like that.

In my humble opinion, a discussion asking for a greater degree of common courtesy and a reduction in inappropriate statements is not unreasonable.

I REALLLLY do not want to get into this...but, Capt, I enjoy most of your posts. In all honesty, this thread has turned into a psychoanalysis of DVC/DIS members.

And, this quote is the only true sarcasm so far in this thread- after you brought up several well thought out and significant comments regarding common courtesy as well as a call for us to move to a higher standard. The original poster presented you with an option for you to avoid your concern with signatures. And, you seemed to respond in a manner which is inconsistent with your other posts.

I think these boards are spirited fun. Its neat that we can have our favorite resorts. Some people are into the NCAA and "fight" back and forth over Duke or Maryland. Our "teams" are OKW, HHI and the rest of the resorts. So, comparisons are fun and if they stir up a debate, good. What else are we going to talk about? How long it takes to get through to MS on any given day, or the quarterly 100 responses to "I got my vacation magic" thread?

I think we need to stop taking this board so seriously. This is a board about vacations and timeshares - not about world hunger or racism.

As far as slams, I rarely see personal attacks. I have never seen an ethnic, sexist, religious, or racist slur or attack. This is the most informative board I have participated in. The veterans are always willing to help new folks with the same old questions and concerns - and that is a neat thing. If not for all the folks here, I would not have bought into DVC and definitely would not have known about resales - or the right resale companies to deal with.

Anyway, that's it on this topic. I enjoy being part of this group and genuinely enjoy most everyone's company.

CaptainMidnight
03-23-2002, 09:15 AM
...this thread has turned into a psychoanalysis of DVC/DIS members.
It's not meant to be, although I can see why you'd think that. And I'm not the only one expressing concern here. It's really meant to be quite simple. It's just gotten more complicated in response to the contracticting and off topic posts.

It's really meant to just ask that some of the excessive discourtesy, unecessary repetative aurgumentativeness, bullying and rude posting described above from a minority of posters that is causing others to avoid visiting here as often STOP!

Why is that so hard? Hopefully, we can all agree to that, I don't understand why we can't, regardless if the rest of the internet is worse or not. I'm amazed that it is so difficult, and seemingly such an outlandish proposal.

Attack me if you'd like, it doesn't change the issue.

p.s. The point about the sarcasm is taken.

ceejay13
03-23-2002, 12:32 PM
I guess I'll put my two cents in. I have rarely found anything offensive on these boards. When I have, almost always the moderators have removed or locked the posts. I love reading the diversity of many owners passion for their home resort. I have gotten an incredible amount of information in the last two years and it has always made my trips more enjoyable. We own at BWV. I have stayed at VB, OKW, and BWV. I love each of them for different reasons. I can't wait to try VWL and BCV. After my previous experiences, I know I will probably love them, as well. Part of the reason we joined is to experience the Disney magic with a choice of accomodations. Even though we have enjoyed them all, I still love to read those posters who have a preference. Like I said I have learned a lot and almost generally agree with the pros and cons listed for each resort. They all have them. Even this thread with it's range of opinions and emotions is interesting. I am thankful I live in America where we can have a spirited debate.

CaptainMidnight
03-24-2002, 09:53 AM
I understand them, but I was kind of hoping we were past the "there doesn't seem to be that big a probem to me" and "what about you, CaptainMidnight" posts given -
...this continuous bashing of BWV very tiresome, offending, and stupid. That is why I have avoided this board for the vast majority of the many hours and posts I spend/or have made on DIS in the past almost 3 years.
I do not like the bashing either. I think it is meant to be funny but it isn't. ... Let's all take a pledge to be kind and courteous and NO BASHING!
...cut the sarcasm and exaggerations and stick to the facts. Sarcastic remarks are frequently posted strictly to enflame others. ...we know there are certain people who love to start arguments and keep them going.
...I know what bothers me is when it starts to sound like little kids on a playground screaming at each other that their Dad can beat up the other kid's Dad.
...Then the old resort war veterans play innocent, because they didn't start it, but at that point they jump in full force, and can often get nasty.
...The mudslinging itself should stop no matter who it is that's throwing it.
....for every poster that's lighthearted and funny, there are *at least* one that are meanspirited and nasty in their approach. If we can't be civil to each other having these kinds of discussions, then maybe we shouldn't have them at all.
The majority of people here have spent 5 figures (or are considering) on a common investment. Even if it doesn't personally affect you, aren't there enough folks expressing concern that we could agree to more courtesy?

eva
03-24-2002, 10:36 AM
I really don't post that often anymore. It has nothing to do with the courtesy of the posters here. I just have found that after being on this site for more than 5 years that the same topics come up over and over again. I do enjoy reading most all of them still. I guess that this thread is a bit distrubing to me though. I think that the moderators do a wonderful job! It seems to me that there are a number of people trying to take over their jobs or tell them what they should be doing. I feel that this is a fairly free posting board.

The two main rules are:
1. No personal attacks
2. Stay on topic

As long as everyone keeps to those rules (and I feel that the moderators do a great job with that) then people should be able to voice their likes and dislikes. Part of the charm and popularity of these boards are due to the fact that people can have a personality and a sense of humor. Why do we all have to agree to keep our thoughts to ourselves and only express warm happy feelings? If I say why I don't like a certain resort and why I like another then you have the option to state your opinion whether you agree with me or not. That's the beauty of people we all have our own opinions.

Are the posters here saying that the moderators aren't doing their jobs and have let personal attacks slide? Then I feel that the moderator should be contacted directly and asked about that certain situation. To make blanket statements with no examples is not very beneficial since the persons will never think that you are directing your comments at them.

CaptainMidnight
03-24-2002, 12:58 PM
Are the posters here saying that the moderators aren't doing their jobs and have let personal attacks slide?
Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not saying that, or in anyway meaning to criticise moderators. Moderators do a wonderful job.

I'm talking about that grey area that is not a direct personal attack, but lacks courtesy and civility, that could easily be employed.


To make blanket statements with no examples is not very beneficial since the persons will never think that you are directing your comments at them.
Again, I hope we don't resort to quotes. I think those folks stepping over the line know who they are, and JonHM raises good points, I agree with him and do not want to single individuals out. Instead, I hope they join in and agree to a collaborative effort for courtesy and future civility... everyone is welcome in this effort.

ncligs
03-24-2002, 02:55 PM
JonHM.
,
Just in case you haven't noticed.....
Posts on this subject=60
Views on this subject=3418

Case closed........:rolleyes:

Ilovedisney
03-24-2002, 04:52 PM
Shouldn't this thread be on the Debate Board?

CaptainMidnight
03-24-2002, 05:16 PM
Shouldn't this thread be on the Debate Board?
Oh my goodness, NO!

This discussion isn't intended to be a debate, its a call for courtesy and civility, different than the debate standards that should occur and are more appropriate over on the debate board. Courtesy, discusion (pros and cons welcome) and inclusion over here -> aggressive debate over there.

I guess the difference is kind of the main point, I rarely go over to the debate board, but I do come here to be a part of the DVC community. I do not come here to participate in some of the repetitive, tiresome, and discourteous aurgumentativeness that seems to be occuring increasingly more frequently here. I'm here to share and learn about DVC with fellow and potential members.

So, how about it, can we all agree to courtesy and civility on this board? Everyone's invited, how about it?

baileybrad
03-24-2002, 09:08 PM
If it looks like a debate, smells like a debate, and acts like a debate. Then, in a most polite tone, it is most likely a debate.

CarolAnnC
03-24-2002, 09:57 PM
Feel free to introduce a debate topic on our Debate Board. This has strayed from a DVC discussion here. This thread is closed.