Horizons: Was it Worth Saving?

[Conure]

I believe it was. Horizons was enjoyable enough for everybody except thrill-ride addicted Universal fans. Again, as I have said again and again, much to the dismay of some people, Disney needs to be accessible to eveyone, of every age, background, and race to be what it is supposed to be. A lot of people didn't care if it was "up - to - date" as long as they enjoyed it. If people care about how scientifically accurate it is, they probably aren't enjoying their "vacation" very much. Disney isn't supposed to be that serious. It's supposed to be fun. And that's exactly what Horizons was.

[hopemax]

I think the concept was worth saving: Family style ride which explored the necessity of innovation and possible innovations; "if we can dream it, we can do it."

I don't think the 80's style costumes, color pallette, style of music, and the way the "family" was presented (too Leave it to Beaver-ish) needed saving, which I think were the biggest turn-offs to the ride. But those are pretty minor issues. I also think these were the types of things that made the Imagination redo a good idea, but they didn't need to ditch Figment in the process.

[daannzzz]

I agree with Hopemax. I was lucky in that I got to see Horizons ( My first trip was in 96) a few times before it left. I think the concept was great and the exicutions was fine for its time but did look tired and dated. They could have kept the ride system (does everything have to move at the speed of light?) and redone some of the sets and animatronics. I know I would have been happy. It's replacement will most likely be off limits for me as I get motion sick pretty easy.

[Planogirl]

Yes, they could have saved it! All it needed was updating and cleaning up IMO.

Disney always lets the rides they lose interest in get really ragged and run-down which in turn seems to drive away more people. Then they justify their neglect by saying that the ride doesn't attract enough people to justify the cost of refurbishing. A bit of cart before the horse philosophy IMO.

To me Epcot is supposed to teach and enlighten and do so in an entertaining way. Horizons could have examined issues that concern us all and toyed with ideas of how best to solve these problems. The potential was staggering. I would have appreciated keeping the concept if for no other reason than to continue to hear the wonderful music but at least they continue to play the Horizons theme at the entrance to Epcot.

The Horizons building was attractive too IMO and I find it ironic that the tin can continues to survive while the far more attractive structure next door becomes rubble. A sinkhole? Yep and I have some property in Florida I'd like to sell ya... ;)

[Eeyore2U]

I think the concept was worth saving: Family style ride which explored the necessity of innovation and possible innovations; "if we can dream it, we can do it."

I love when you got to pick the ending. They did a rehab that really was not successful before it was closed. Maybe Mission Space is an updated version?

[Bob O]

No it wasnt worth savingin the least!!!!! Disney has more than enough family rides as it is!!! It was ok when new but as time went by it was almost always a walk on when i was their and unlike some rides that age well, it just became more boring. Test Track is a good replacement, it is a family ride itself and not a thrill ride.

[Planogirl]

I know of people who are terrified of Test Track. I hardly think that anyone was scared of Horizons.

By the way, Test Track replaced It's Fun to be Free not Horizons. So far, nothing has replaced Horizons but it appears that the replacement will be a thrill ride.

[Uncleromulus]

Didn't Test Track replace the World of Motion?? Which by the way was another attraction I'll miss.
And I do miss Horizons!!!

[smjj]

I prefer both Horizions and World of Motion to the thrill rides they are putting in. You can get those at any amusement park. That was what put Disney Epcot on my favorites list. Oh well, I at least have them on tape to watch. Test track is wait forever, get on ride and get off 3 minutes later. I can get that at King's Island!!!!

[WDWHound]

I loved Horizons, but I recognized that it was no longer popular. Also, the building had serious structural problems. There was no way Disney could keep this ride.

My problem is that it was the last of its kind. WDW used to have the House of Future Living at the end of Space Mountain, then they had Horizons. Now there is no ride or attraction that speculates how we will live in the future. Yes, there is the walk through in Innoventions, but that is about new technology available today, not how we might live in 20 or 30 years. Disney's visions of how we would live in the future was one of my favorite things about Disney world and its sad that they no long do this.

In a way, I understand why Disney has moved away from this. As a society, we no longer look forward with excitement to the changes progress will bring to our lives. At one time, we considered progress to be good and didn't really investigate the environmental and social costs. Now it seems the pendulum has swung the other way. We have lost the excitement and become fixated on the costs. Think about it. When was the last time you saw an article or saw a TV special on what it will be like to live in the future. Yes, the are some, but nothing like the number we saw in the fifties, sixties and seventies. There are lots of specials on dealing with the problems caused by technology however .

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that we have become aware of the problems we are causing on this planet and I believe we should do our best to address these problems. I am just sorry that this new awareness seem to have been at the cost of our excitement towards the future. We have lost our innocence. Until we can strike a balance between futurism and concern for its effects, I feel we will not see another attraction like Horizons.

[OnWithTheShow]

Doesn't Spaceship Earth talk about how we will live and communicate in the Future, and what about innoventions? As for Horizons, I also agree that it was not worth saving. Even Walt himself realized that attractions would need to be replaced as time went by.

[Another Voice]

‘Horizons’ was important to save because it was the clearest reflection of the message of park – there are choices we can make that will affect the future. The goal of the original EPCOT Center was to show what’s just around the corner. But the world got to that corner and the place became Epcot, and all about fattening wallets in the here and now.

The intent was to continually update ‘Horizons’. But that costs money. And it didn’t help either when Disney went out and bought a network that competes directly against the one owned by the pavilion’s sponsor. In the end though, the pavilion fell victim to the desire to sell easy tickets. It’s much easier to sell motion-induced nausea than it is to appeal to the imagination.

And speaking of ‘Test Track’, I’m going to pull a pirate. Frankly, the process of testing autos is the subject for a twenty minute industrial film you have to watch in the sixth grade (the day when the teacher forgot to bring the lesson plan and has to fill up the time). And zipping around in a fake car at the impressive speed of fifty-five mile per hour is what most adults call “the morning commute”. Granted that ‘World of Motion’ was little more than an ode to the internal combustion engine, but it wasn’t as bad as ‘Test Track’. Worse still is that Test Track has yet to explain why, with all this impressive mega technology and engineering magic – why hitting a pole at 5 mph cause $750 in damage to a car!!

[Bob O]

I was wrong, Test Track did repalce world of motion, but the line for Horizons was non-extistent and the ride was its life course and shuold have been replaced. And i disagree with the notion that test Track is a thrill ride at all. It does show the process that auto's go thru but the speeds it travels are slower that most people drive while on the expressway enroute to disney if you drive or come from the airport. To me TT is a family attraction and not a thrill attraction at all!!

[OnWithTheShow]

65mph

[Werner Weiss]

World of Motion was a flawed attraction. It had some really clever, entertaining scenes -- but it also had a bunch of filler ("speed tunnel" movies) and an ending that in no way matched the tone of the rest of the rest of the attraction. (How did that glowing, abstract city of the future relate to the humorous minor transportation mishaps and other funny scenes that made up the majority of the ride?). The "Transcenter" after the ride had some clever work -- "Water Engine" and "Bird & Robot" were both very well done -- but the "Transcenter" did not carry forward the tone and theme of the ride. As a result, the World of Motion was disjointed and ultimately failed to create an immersive experience or tell a compelling story. Although it was a big ride with lots of AA figures, it just didn't attract repeat visits the way that "Pirates of the Caribbean" does.

My school-age daughters loved Horizons. It appealed to their sense of imagination. It let them think about what their future might be like. But Horizons, too, was flawed. Okay, I know it was supposed to have three distinct parts -- (1) the future as visualized in the past; (2) impressive Imax Dome movies; (3) essentially, the Carousel of Progress family in the future living in the desert, underwater, and in space. It must have seemed like a good idea when it was designed, but it hurt the attraction's ability to tell an engaging story.

Unfortunately, Future World opened with a lot of attractions that were disjointed. Some have been improved; other have not. "The Universe of Engery" and "Living with the Land" (formerly "Listen to the Land" were redone in the 1990s to make them more cohesive experiences. Let's not talk about Imagination. And who knows what will happen to the Living Seas?

The World of Motion and Horizons could have been redone by a new generation of Imagineers to bring them up to their true potential. But I can also see where the folks who make the financial decisions did not want to invest new money in attractions that were "losers" in terms of attendence. It's a shame, but Test Track and Horizons were probably the right decisions from a business perspective. Of course, as a park guest I would have liked to have seen World of Motion and Horizons updated, and Test Track and Space built as additional attractions.

[smjj]

When it is not broken down(quite often) Test track just reminds me of one big commerical. Its way too short for the line and preshow you have to go thru. If this is the way Epcot and the rest of the parks is headed(M. Eisner) then I can save a lot of money and stay close to home and go to Kings Island or Kentucky Kingdom....smjj

[Lesley]

Test Track is definitely not a family ride.....

How many of us here have had to sit and wait what seems like forever while doing a child-swap at TT? I've done it multiple times. Its an enjoyable ride...but not one the whole family can enjoy. But really there aren't that many family rides at WDW outside of the MK...just more than are at your average Six Flags.

Horizons appealed to a sense of wonder and optimism about the future...there was story going on there of some of the best kind...the kind where your imagination is challenged to consider the possibilities. If updated it could have continued to inspire generations to come. Now we'll get yet another ride that will require a lengthy break in a child swap waiting area for many families, and will most likely not kindle that same sense of "possibility".

You know, it takes a whole lot more talent to create a great family ride than to create a ride that has a more limited audience...there was a day when the time and effort were taken. None of the recent family rides has been what I could call "great" (all are enjoyable...but there are no WOW experiences). It seems that creativity has been traded for loud noises, scary stuff, and lots of motion. There are many newer experiences at WDW that, with some creativity, could have really been truly family attractions. Does ITTBAB really have to be so scary and loud to be enjoyable? Actually, I think if it weren't so darned loud it wouldn't be nearly as scary to little ones.

Don't get me wrong...a few thrill rides aren't a bad thing...but when the focus of all the creative elements in ride design is on thrill it will eventually change the feel of the parks entirely.

Of course I'm probably the only person who will dare speak up for the under 5 (or more timid older children) crowd and their parents...most people seem to like to pretend that tiny people don't exist, or deserve barely the same respect as the family pet. (Sorry...that's my child advocacy side popping out!) Hmmm...what was it Walt wanted for his parks? A place where parents and children could have fun together? I don't think that statement was qualified with "over 40" tall"

Oh, what was the subject? :p Oh, yeah....Horizons. We miss that one a lot...my kids never got to see it.

[Bob O]

Lesley-My 4yrold daughter rode TT so the height limit isnt all that outlandish and what good would ITTBAB if you take out thre lemenets that make it a enjoyable show!!
I also see little proof that it takes more talent to create a great family ride as compared to a great thrill type ride. All great rides take creativity be they family or thrill orientated!! And i think more people on this board are catering to the family/child type ride than thrill rides which are in abundance at wdw. I would love a section of one of their parks to have as many thrill rides as disney has in fanasty land or toontown. Disney has catered to family rides which im not against but has done little for people who want something more exciting and a park can be all things to all people if it cares too.

[Planogirl]

Uncleremus, It's Fun to be Free was the name of the ride portion of World of Motion. There was also an area that displayed cars and info about cars which most people zipped by just like they do today. ;)

[Lesley]

What I mean is that it is definitely harder to make something wonderful within certain parameters than to go..."oh, let's do this" with no regard to who it excludes...its harder, takes more creativity, to make an attraction that will appeal to everyone than it does to make one that only needs to appeal to a more limited audience. It certainly would take more creativity to make something like ITTBAB a show something everyone could enjoy...creativity to rework the Hopper part a bit...then this would be a fairly suitable show for everyone (okay, and maybe a strong suggestion that small children sit in an adults' lap) Does noise and being tossed about violently really make the story of most attractions better? The experience?

And its not just small children who are excluded from many things...its also people with certain disabilities, pregnancy, etc...

Family rides in Toontown? Um, there are none....only Barnstormer which is a coaster and has restrictions. MK does have most of the excellent family rides though...like POC, HM, JC, PPF...all which manage to be worthy of many repeat visits w/o being extreme. Admittedly my 7yo will not go near the HM....but he's never even tried it to know that its more funny than scary. MK is very family oriented...the other parks are much less so (jury is still out on AK...for now its fairly family friendly...but there's not much to go by, is there?)

My main complaint is that Disney has not put any real effort into making truly family attractions for a long time....all their best efforts have been in the area of "thrill". Families get spinners. Sure, my 2yo enjoys them, but they bore the rest of us pretty quickly.

[Uncleromulus]

Planogirl:
Thanks for the correct World of Motion ridr name--.
And you're right-I always zipped right on by the "showroom" at the end.

[d-r]

I'm sorry, but I am going to take a different view here.

Test track is not my favorite ride - by a long shot- but it is because it <strong>is not</strong> a thrill ride!

I sort of agree with AV, that it isn't very interesting subject matter to me personally, and that is no more thrilling than a ride in a convertable. There isn't a lot of thrill to test track because it isn't a thrill ride.

I completely disagree with the notion that you can find anything similiar to test track at six flags, ky. kingdom or kings island. I will admit that I haven't been to six flags or kings island in years, but unless something has changed dramatically there is nothing themed as well as test track. Yes, much of the theming is a GM commericial, but there is nothing at that level of theming at the typical amusement parks. And it is not a thrill ride on the caliber of the thrill rides at the typical amusement parks. And frankly, it is nice that there is at least one attraction that older kids can find some thrill out of at epcot (listen, when I was a teen we surely didn't want to ecpot). And, even though I don't find it that interesting, there is some educational value to it - the even if it only has the value of a 20-minute industrial film, the typical amusement parks don't even have that.

Please. Test track is not at all on the level of typical thrill park rides (1. Not that thrilling + 2. well themed and a little educational, if not that interesting). Also, the ride system is innovative. Please, please name me one thrill ride at ky. kingdom or visionland or six flags or cedar point or kings island that is similar to test track.

DR

[Lesley]

TT may not be a thrill ride (and I don't even think I said that per se...if I did, well, I mis-wrote) but it is not a family ride either. And I don't think anyone implied that Six Flags has anything like TT. But anyway...I can't even recall what I was responding too except perhaps the suggestion that WDW has too many family rides.

I thought this thread was about Horizons anyway...

[Poly Pal]

We loved Horizons for the message of hope and optomism it offered. Couldn't we use more of that given the terrible events of the last 6 months and the prospect of more bad to come?

It was Walt Disney who originally said, "If we can dream it, then we can do it!" Just hearing the phrase and the theme music from Horizons gives me goosebumps (the good kind!) Maybe I'm just too sentimental, but that was what I think Walt wanted families to take away from his parks.

Plus I'm a big COP fan and Horizons was much like an updated COP right down to the family it featured.

[Sandy Fisher]

Even if we agree that the building and ride needed refurbishing, the ideas are still "futuristic" in their own way. We still aren't living on the ocean floor (even tho' there are research vessels that make short stays possible). We aren't living in space, even tho' some astronauts do on the space station. The farming advancements haven't really happened other than irrigation systems in some areas. The communications with "video phones" are a reality but not in widespread use.

I think it would have been simple to keep the basis for the ride and just update it a little. As someone mentioned earlier, there are thousands (millions?) of people who never saw Horizons and would have enjoyed it. There surely is room at WDW for added expansion. And the new attractions would surely have found room somewhere. I don't think the location was chosen for a new attraction simply because it was time to "move on" and abandon Horizons. But that seems to be the way to do things now --- tear it down and build something new!

oops, sorry. lost the thread there for a minute.

I found a stamp in a craft store that says "If you can dream it, you can do it" and I bought it to use on greeting cards. It's a nice thought to keep in the back of my mind. Sort of like wishing on a star ??
:cool:

[DC7800]

Horizons represented all that was special about the original Epcot Center. It inspired us; leaving guests with a sense of awe, and full of hope and utter amazement about the future experienced in a day at Epcot. Horizons (and the rest of Epcot) simply spewed pixie-dust (how else do you explain the feelings Epcot & Horizons left you with?). Lesley said it even better:

Horizons appealed to a sense of wonder and optimism about the future...there was story going on there of some of the best kind...the kind where your imagination is challenged to consider the possibilities.

Horizons was truly a sight to behold - at least in 1983 when it premiered. The problem, of course, was a 1983 vision of the future looks rather dated in the mid-90's, dulling that sense of "awe" and wonder. Regular updates are the only solution (Disney could open an attraction about the future in 2002; left untouched, it too might look pretty awful in 10-15 years). For enduring years of neglect, I'll argue Horizons held up fairly well (and better in many ways than the original Tommorrowland). The amount of updating to "freshen" Horizons would not have been (should not have been) that dramatic, nor that expensive. The destruction of Horizons was a mistake, and a tremendous loss for Epcot. :(

For those who loved the original Epcot attractions (dark, "omnimover type", whole-family rides), only Spaceship Earth survives. Four major pavilions have been either forever lost or radically altered. Little wonder that many people (who formally raved over Epcot) now find much less there to stir the imagination (pun intentional). Naturally, dark rides aren't everyone's favorite type of attraction, hence the apparent attempt to "thrill-up" Future World. However, the "thrill-ride" crowd isn't exactly overjoyed with Future World either, for they have but a single thrill ride of their own - Test Track. This is a gross oversimplification of Epcot today, but you (hopefully) get my point.

WDW theme parks should offer something for everyone (but with almost every ride accessible to virtually all guests - too many recent efforts have been thrill rides). The ideal solution, of course, would have given us Horizons and Mission:Space, World of Motion and Test Track (in both cases, the rides actually complement each other!). Horizons, and the other "lost" attractions, could easily have been updated - brought back to high attendance, state of the art magic - and probably for less money than was wasted on the JIYI debacle, the Spaceship Earth “icon”, and other ill advised projects (the "hat"). This would have given Future World something for everyone - the thrill seeker and the family. Simply tearing them out seems like such a waste. Besides, if you lose a pavilion for every one you add, the park gains nothing long-term (hmm...guess we only "need" six attractions per day anyway, right?). Instead, to quote Lesley again:

Now we'll get yet another ride that will require a lengthy break in a child swap waiting area for many families, and will most likely not kindle that same sense of "possibility". Hmmm...what was it Walt wanted for his parks? A place where parents and children could have fun together? I don't think that statement was qualified with "over 40" tall"

Anyone can develop rides which produce excitement via thrills ("cheap thrills" all-too often, ie. Dinorama). In other words: "faster, wetter, wilder" rides that would feel right at home over at IOA or Six Flags. As AV noted:

In the end though, the pavilion fell victim to the desire to sell easy tickets. It’s much easier to sell motion-induced nausea than it is to appeal to the imagination.

Far greater skill, talent, imagination, and - of course - money is necessary to generate excitement through fantasy or story, yet that is what Disney has always done best. Indeed, such attractions are what WDW is known for - the reason we have passes to WDW instead of a regional ("Six Flags" type) park. There's no harm in a few rides with a thrill element, but there are very good reasons to avoid this element in the vast majority of (family) attractions.

[Annie&Hallie'sMom]

Beautifully said.

Horizons COULD have been updated. And SHOULD have been maintained. It was a crime what they let happen to that building (the place was a wreck, although the land was perfectly safe -- there was no sink hole by Horizons...there is, however, a sink hole in Epcot)

[Bob O]

I think the prolem with a ride like Horizons is that when you make a ride that purports to tell the future ages very badly and needs more updating than disney is willing to do and while some people here went ga-ga over the ride when you were at the park the lines werent their so people voted with their feet and if they went once it didnt get mutiple visits. You know if the ride would have been popular it wouldnt have been closed. Kind of the same reason why disney re did tomorrowland in MK, it became old so it was easier to give it a Jules Verne feel than always re-doing things as we progress in real time.
dc7800 if you are a diehard thrill fan you have no rides at Epoct. Test track is a good ride but isnt any where near a true thrill ride, now if your car flipped over several times to simulate a crash and then went 80mph and came to a sudden screech to avoid hitting a tree, then it could be a true thrill ride, right now its slower than most people go on the freeways.

[Testtrack321]

Originally posted by Annie&Hallie'sMom
Beautifully said.

Horizons COULD have been updated. And SHOULD have been maintained. It was a crime what they let happen to that building (the place was a wreck, although the land was perfectly safe -- there was no sink hole by Horizons...there is, however, a sink hole in Epcot)

Interesting...
A thread on WDWMagic.com had people battling it out saying that Horizons had...
-Abspesos
-Fire
-Sink Hole
-Structural Damage
-Hurracan Damage

[HorizonsFan]

When I first visited Epcot in 1994, I came away in awe of Horizons. It was something unlike anything I had ever experienced. World of Motion and Spaceship Earth made a significant impression on my as well but not like Horizons.
Horizons was the ultimate theatrical experience. All of your senses were involved in the show. Everything - the lighting, the sound, the smells, the movement was designed to make sure the audience was totally immersed in the experience and didn't miss a thing. It was Disney (and theatre) at it's best.
It wasn't the subject matter that made it so special to me. It was the brilliance of the concept. Total sensory immersion into the story with little effort from the audience.
Disney should seriously consider revisiting this concept...
I miss Horizons, but Mission Space has potential. Maybe we'll see some of the Horizons spirit in the new attraction. I hope so.

[King Triton]

Horizons and World of Motion were my favorite rides. Epcot hasn't been the same since. :mad: Those rides had the real Disney magic. Why can't Disney build a new Horizons? Everyone loved Horizons so why not bring it back?

King Triton

[Barb]

Add me to the list of fans of the original EPCOT attractions. They represented all that was special and unique about FW. I loved sitting back and absorbing each and every scene throughout these attractions. Boy, don't you just absolutely miss the smell of oranges?? It's a shame that "the powers that be" couldn't see a way to incorporate the best of both worlds. From what I've heard about Mission:Space, it's going to be a ride with a very strong "motion sickness advisory". It won't be anything close to what Horizons and World of Motion were. How sad that wonderful, inventive, interesting family attractions have to be trashed for an attraction for a limited audience. :(

[TDisneyC]

In my opinion, yes it was worth saving. I LOVED Horizons. To be it was a true Disney ride. It had all the magical elements that a Disney ride should posess. As a kid I always felt transported to another world while on that ride. It's sad that they removed it.

[eclipseSD]

I loved Horizons

[Bob O]

Mission Space will draw alot more crowds and be far busier than Horizons/World of motion ever was!!! TT almost always has a line(usually long!!) as compared to WOM which i found always to be a walk on as was Horzions.
Disney knows what rides attract visitors and which one's dont and made a great decison by getting rid of both rides as there time came and went which is evidenced by the amount of people who visited the attractions!!!
Mission Space will have a limited audenice which will include hours long waits in busy times and fastpasses running out early which NEVER would have occurred on either Horizons/WOM!!
Now if disney got rid of POTC/HM that would be tragic but both while old rides still develop long waits which didnt occur on WOM/Horzions.

[raidermatt]

Long lines for an attraction do not automatically mean its best for Disney.

I never rode WoM or Horizons, so I can't comment specifically on those. But generally speaking, dark rides have a greater capacity than most of the faster thrill type rides. So lines are far from a perfect benchmark.

Also, I think its probably true that ON AVERAGE, thrill ride fans do not spend as much as family ride fans. (yes, there are exceptions, and yes, you can be a fan of both)

A mix of both types is probably ideal, as evidenced by DL and MK, so its probably not such a bad thing for Epcot to add a few thrill rides. M:S brings the Epcot total to three. (BW, TT, and M:S).

They just need to keep the right balance for Disney, and not try to match the balance that other parks have. That's my main concern with the current direction. Most of the significant additions lately are thrill, and not family.

(My other concern is with the execution of the thrill rides that are added, like TT, but that's another discussion...)

[KidDurango]

I like most of you loved Horizons. Worked there for a time myself, and it was one of the few attractions where guests continually thanked me when they came off the ride. It was a pleasant little diversion.
That being said, I understand why it needed to go. The building itself was falling apart. The roof leaked like a Congressman with juicy gossip about his opponent. The estimates for repair at one time were almost as high as the cost of a whole new building. The ride system had also seen better days. Not many are aware but several months before the ride finally shut down, one of the gondola cars actually fell off the tracks due to stress fractures in the metal. Many of the parts were no longer available due to manufacturers going out of buisiness or simply no longer making 20 year old technology. Some of those parts could be rebuilt, but that was getting more difficult and extremely expensive.
When you add all this to the fact that it no longer drew even 1/3 of its capacity on most days, it was just too easy to make a justification for writing it off. For that attraction to continue running for another five years, it was going to cost almost as much as Mission: Space, and would not add significantly to park attendance.

[eclipseSD]

Did they sell the ride or destroy it?

[poober25]

Yes! I think Horizons and World of Motion should have both been kept. I recently returned from my 6th trip to Disney since 1985. I was 12 on my first trip. I always enjoyed both of these rides and sorely miss them now. And I HATE the changed to Imagination. I really feel, as some others on this board do, that Disney has decided that a family being able to experience things all together and have fun is no longer important. This was my first trip with my own children DS4 and DD1, also along were my mom and DH. My son was scared in the Journey into Imagination ride and I know he wouldn't have been scared in the old one.

Also, I don't remember the exit of every ride having gift shops before. I know Space Mtn. didn't and I don't think Imagination did either. I know that things have to updated and change with the times, but if they are going to take out attractions and put in new ones, I feel like they should put in the same type of attraction. I am glad that are some thrill rides in the parks, I love ToT, but I wanted my kids to have a magical experience, and they did, but DS hated Epcot, there was nothing there for him.

Everything seems to come down to the $$$ instead guests having the best experience they can. (ie why are the all the characters meals "all you can eat"? That's too much money and too much food.) I remember eating at the castle for lunch several time's when it was still called King Stefan's (I'm glad they changed the name, I always thought it was odd that Sleeping Beauty's father lived in Cindy's castle:) ) and Cinderella just being there occasionally. Anyway, I digress. The ride should have and could have been saved.

[Bob O]

Raidermatt-How many events have you gone too with coaster or thrill ride fans??????
I have gone to several coaster events and i have seen them spend more money than most families i have seen and they love to have souvenirs of their favorite rides etc, myself included!!!!! And i agree with a mix of bothtypes of attractions but unless something is a true classic which the rides mentioned werent IMHO and as evidenced by their popularity rides will be replaced once their ridership drops.
Disney does themselves no favors by having rides operate when they are used anywhere close to their capacity!!! It makes no sense to keep a ride operating when the ride has small amounts of people riding it.
The bottom line is if these rides had the ridership to justify them to still be operating they would be operating, the people voted with their feet and choose not to ride these rides!!!!!!

[raidermatt]

I have gone to several coaster events and i have seen them spend more money than most families i have seen and they love to have souvenirs of their favorite rides etc, myself included!!!!!
Bob, the majority of thrill ride seekers are there for the ride. The majority of families are there for a vacation. There's a reason Disney sells more merchandise than Six Flags....actually, there's several reasons, but one of them is the type of guests they are going after. You maybe an exception, and that's great.

The bottom line is if these rides had the ridership to justify them to still be operating they would be operating, the people voted with their feet and choose not to ride these rides!!!!!!
You maybe right about these particular rides... I don't know.

But just because a ride needs to be replaced, it does not mean it should be a thrill ride every time. That's my point. And judging by the recent additions, as well the rumored major additions, it appears Disney is losing touch with that point.




Somehow, I've got this strange feeling that I've been here before....Hmmmmmm..........

[Bob O]

Raidermatt-Well from personal experience and not just assuming how things may be i have been to ACE events with coaster enthusiasts and have seen how they purchase items/mementos from their vists and it rivals what i have personally seen from families at wdw. A big difference is disney's ability to produce high quality items that people want while Six Flag parks sell the same merchandise for years without changing their items at all and my local Six Flags park celebrated their 25th anniv several years ago and in a stupid merchandising move sold out their anniv. products by May and never re-stocked for some unknown reason!! One company knows how to market themsleves much better than the other.
Disney does need to improve there thrill ride selections at all the parks but im also in favor of adding HM/POTC type rides which they havent done in awhile. Isnt the Mickey 3d show being put in the old Lion King building a non-thrill attraction??

[raidermatt]

Isnt the Mickey 3d show being put in the old Lion King building a non-thrill attraction??
Yes, it qualifies (at least I think it will). I ususally add the disclaimer "except 3D shows" when I say they aren't adding much in the way of significant all-family attractions, but neglected to do so this time.

Nothing wrong with the 3D shows, and other live shows too for that matter, but they need to do more than that.

[Planogirl]

I'm still very suspicious about the drop-off in popularity of rides such as Horizons. It's funny to me that Disney lets these attractions deteriorate so badly and then seems suddenly surprised that ridership drops. I personally don't like to ride run-down rides either. Even though I still remember Jules Verne's melting face with great fondness. :)

I totally believe that the Horizons CONCEPT was its greatest strength and was certainly worth saving and now is worth bringing back in some capacity. Motion sickness meant to enlighten and educate? I see....

[Bob O]

Raidermatt-I do consider 3d shows to be for all the family and im guessing that by using Mickey it wont be a wild show. And i agree that disney does need to add more family attractions but if Superstar Limo was any indication they have forgotten how to do family dark rides.
Planogirl-Disney could have spent gobs of money on World of Motion/Horizons and that wouldnt have increased their attendance much and would have been throwing bad money after good. Sometimes rides have ran their course and need to be removed and these two are examples of it.

[Wes]

I was not at all sad to see World of Motion go.

I cannot even remember what Horizons was. So it certainly never made much of an impression on me.

I am disappointed in Innoventions -- we seldom go in there anymore. It is like a cross betwwen a museum and a MacWorld Expo and seems much heavier on the corporate identity than the rest of the park. I was there the day Innoventions opened, and one of the nice things they had was a tour of the Imagineering studio (or whatever they called it) there. I guess the Imagineers and the studio are gone, since I have not seen that offered recently.

I think Test Track was a good addition for EPCOT. The ride is really not much different than a fast drive down the highway, with a somewhat sharp turn thrown in for torque. It is really very tame compared to a roller coaster ride -- which it is not.

But I hope that they do not go overboard in the thrill ride direction at EPCOT. EPCOT is a more adult-oriented park, and I really think that it should stay that way.

[Conure]

I would like to point out, that, though not related to any other post, (I think), if you compare Disney World to Six Flags, you see younger people headed to Six Flags. But, how many of these teenagers will come back in their 50s or 60s because of the lifetime of enjoyment provided? Disney's stats for that are far, far better. It can hook someone's interest for life with it's variety, and mainstays.
As for Horizons, the people who looked for technical and developemental flaws obviously did not enjoy the ride, for it was ment for optimists, not pessimists. Sure, it needed work, but name one ride in Disney World that has never or will never need touching up or additions. They just didn't bother, for some reason, to fix one of Disney's most memorable attractions.

[HorizonsFan]

One word...

Absolutely!

[d-r]

Frankly I don't remember Horizons that well, so I can't say that I miss it. I find it interesting that people always want WDW to add new things or update things, but when they do some people aren't happy with that either! And I absolutely don't think it was worth saving if no one was going there. Anyone remember the Swan Boats? They can't keep attractions open for a handful of people that are there for a few days - maybe a few times a year - what a waste of money. Having said that though I do think there are some attractions that should be left alone for nostalgia's sake - Pirates and HM come to mind. Those are Walt originals - back off!

Personally I think Mission Space will be incredible, but that's just my opinion. As far as Testtrack - I honestly don't consider that much of a "thrill-ride". If people have a problem with it they shouldn't go on it. There are far more tame attractions at WDW than thrill attractions - so go ride some spinneroo thing and leave my "thrill" attractions alone!

As far as Pirates and Haunted Mansion are concerned - if WDW tries to "kiddie" them up I think we will sell our DVC and stop going - WDW is for everyone - NOT just kids - there are plenty of things for timid people to do - if they don't like the handful of "thrill" attractions there - DON'T RIDE THEM!

Melissa

[Bob O]

I agree with DR that while TT is a decent ride, it is no thrill ride!!!! Most people go faster in their car ride from the airport to wdw!!!

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Bob O
Planogirl-Disney could have spent gobs of money on World of Motion/Horizons and that wouldnt have increased their attendance much and would have been throwing bad money after good. Sometimes rides have ran their course and need to be removed and these two are examples of it.

BobO, I don't deny that Horizons had run its course in its last form. However, I still believe that the Horizons theme is a good one and the premise could have been adapted to a new attraction. However, keeping up-to-date on new technologies and exploring new "horizons" would have taken some effort and more importantly money and we all know how likely any of that is nowadays! :rolleyes:

I keep the Horizons theme in mind however and keep daydreaming about what could have been.

[eeyore0062]

I never liked Horizons, so the fact that it is being replaced is no problem for me. I look forward to Mission Space. Epcot needs a shot in the arm, which was started with the conversion of World of Motion to Test Track, and will continue with Mission Space. They are on the right track, with redoing Journey To Your Imagination with Figment, and Universe of Energy with Ellen Degeneres and Bill Nye! I hope that the changes in Spaceship Earth will be as good, and that they soon do something to update Living Seas!

[Bob O]

Planogirl-I do agree that the concept of Horizons is good and the ride could have been redone but with JITYI as a example disney doesnt have a good track record of re-doing rides and has shown little creativity to do Horizons any better than they did.

[King Triton]

Why Not build a Horizons II ride at Epcot? Disney made a huge mistake taking that ride out. Epcot hasn't been the same since. The old Epcot was 100 times better.

King Triton

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Bob O]

Removing Horizons/WOM was one of the few good moves disney has made as of late!!!!!!

[King Triton]

Horizons and World of Motion had the true Disney magic. Those who disagree with me may prefer going to Six Flags instead without any theming - just concrete and beams all around.

YES - Removing Horinzons and World of Motion was WRONG!:mad: Every TRUE disney fan will say so.

Epcot lost a lot of it's old charm and magic. Test track lacks imagination. Adding new rides is OK, but don't remove the classic old rides. It's time to sprinkle some pixie dust over the park.

King Triton

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Barb]

King Triton, I couldn't agree with you more. Why do they have to sacrifice that Disney magic to get the "thrill" they're looking for? I remember very clearly my first times on WOM and Horizons. I was in awe. These rides were something special and something entirely different than what I was used to. I loved the slow moving vehicle taking us through all sorts of interesting scenes. I loved finding things I missed on a previous trip. How sad that they have been replaced by that all important high speed thrill ride. :(
I love Test Track, but I loved WOM, too. I wish they could find a way for us to have the best of both of these worlds. :(

[HorizonsFan]

I have to echo the sentiments of others and say that it wouldn't have bothered me one bit if they had added Test Track to an upgraded WOM type ride. It wouldn't have bothered me if they had built MS in one of several available locations. My problem is, why did they have to lose the old in order to get the new? Since most of the new attraction would be funded with corporate money, why couldn't Disney have invested some money in upgrades and refurbishment and now have four attractions instead of two?

[King Triton]

I agree.....keep Horizons and World of Motion and add the new thrill rides too. WE can have the best of both worlds. Disney never did bother surveying their guests about keeping Horizons. I really do believe keeping the old rides would attract more people to Epcot today.

I wish Disney would build a Horizons II. "If we can dream it, we can do it." - Walt Disney

Everytime I go to a Disney pin traders meet, the topic of "why did they remove Horizons" always comes up. These are true Disney fans who appreciate what makes Disney so special. Believe me, Horizons is missed - more so than Disney realizes. A lot of people tell me they stop going to Epcot because they did take out those rides. Those slow moving dark rides were great for every member of the family and I was always in awe after seeing it. Horizons always opened up your imagination and took you on a magical journey. Kids loved it - everyone loved it. Oh boy, I sure do miss those good old rides. :(

King Triton

[Bob O]

So what makes a true disney fan???? Is it being in love with a ride that had a outdated concept that few people went on??? If this is the case disney should NEVER remove any ride once it is built because some one "who claims to be THE TRUE DISNEY FAN" will complain even if few people go on the ride and the ride due to the lack of people riding it doesnt justify keeping it!!!
Why should disney throw good money after bad money by trying to update two attractions that no longer had the ridership to justfy their existence!!!
While some here will cry over the loss of two boring/outdated rides that VAST majoirity of guests ride TT happy it replaced wom and will do so even more once MS is up and running!!!
Maybe we should petition disney to give us back the moon attraction at MK because im sure some supposed "true disney fan" was upset by its demise!!!! Or maybe we should have back Mission to Mars and a return of the Lion King show at MK if this critieria was used!!!
POTC/HM are true disney classic's and their popularity shows it which wom/horizons never developed that status!!!

[HorizonsFan]

I never said I was the "true Disney fan".
I think an updated Horizons and WOM would have generated more riders.
I'm not against new attractions. I love Test Track and can't wait for MS.
Bob, why does the fact that we think Horizons should still exist make you so angry?

[Sleeping Beauty]

Opps - my wife logged in last time under Sleeping Beauty and it should say King Triton instead. sorry. This is King Triton speaking

Horizons, I think Bob was referring to me. I too don't understand Bob getting angry over Horizons. If you don't like Horizons, then go ride Test track. It's no big deal. (Hey Bob, if they did have Horizons and World of Motion, then you wouldn't have to wait so long in line for Test Track. LOL!!)

Bob simply prefers rollercoaster "thrill" type rides instead. That is his personal taste. That's cool. Bob, you are one of the few people I know of who didn't like Horizons. I would say you would have a better time going to Universal Studios instead. That is your cup of tea. I bet you if you took a survey of TRUE DISNEY FANS that you would see a demand to bring Horizons back. When the topic of "Why did they remove Horizons" keeps popping up at every Disney pin meet I attend, then it makes you realize how much that ride is missed. TRUE DISNEY FANS understand what makes Disney different from the rest. Why can't we have both types of rides?? I do agree 100% that keeping or having an updated version of Horizons or World of Motion would have attracted more people to Epcot. Why remove the classic rides? Keep them and add new ones. It's like removing Splash Mountain or the Haunted Mansion - YOU DON'T DO THAT!! The reason you see such long lines at Test Track is because there is not much else to do at Epcot. Kids could ride Horizons and World of Motion - the whole family together. When I took my kids, they loved riding Horizons and World of Motion over and over again. Test Track is ok but little kids can't ride it. Epcot has fewer things to do for the entire family.

Importnat point: What sets Disney apart from other theme parks is the animatronics type dark rides. That is the Disney magical touch. That is what Walt loved. I go to Disney for the magic and to see those types of rides. If I wanted thrill only, then I would go to Universal or Six Flags. (I would never do that)

Some people get it and some people don't. Stand still Bob.....I'm sprinkling some pixie dust on you right now. :p

King Triton
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[King Triton]

Horizons was the heart and soul of Epcot.

Epcot hasn't been the same since.


King Triton

[WDWHound]

The problem is not the addition of new thrill rides. Disney can and does do this well. The problem is that they are abbonding the old animatronic show rides which only Disney could do well.

Lets look at Future World 1 year after it opened. It featured 5 Animatronic dark rides (Spaceship Earth, Horizons, World of Motion, Universe of Energy and Journey into Imagination). We have now lost Horizons and World of Motion, Rumors are that we will soon lose Spaceship Earth (to be replaced with a thrill ride) and Journey in Imagination has been turned into a giftshop with a short ride in front of it (Granted, its better now then than their first attempt at retheming it). This will leave one, count em, 1 large scale darkride in Future world. We had 5, soon we have one. Now do you understand why people are upset? We don't mind thrillrides being added to the park, but does the price have to be the loss of all the darkrides that we love?

If Horizons wasn't drawing crowds, it should have been replaced with a darkride that WOULD draw crowds and Mission Space should have been added somewhere else (gasp! that would actually increase the number of attractions in Futureworld! What a horrible thing that would be!). Destroying all the darkrides and only building thrillrides to replace them is taking the cheap and easy way out at the expense of half of their audience. Why cant they strike a balance and build some darkrides and some thrill rides?

The last major animatronic dark ride built in the US was The Geat Movie Ride. How many thrill rides have been built since then? (I count 5). I beleive Eisner has walked away from animatronics rides not because they cant draw crowds (Pirates and HM prove that theory wrong), but becuse they are expensive and require creativity and imagination to do well. If there's anything Eisner doesn't understand, its paying for quality or creativity, so we get stuck we all thrills, all the time.

Welcome to Six Flags Over Eisner.

[WDWHound]

One last thing. Horizons was the last ride left in ANY Disney park that attepted to show how we will live in the future. I know that building this sort of ride is hard and I know that they can become outdated quickly, but this is Future World for heavan's sake! Shouldn't there be a least on ride in Future world focusing on living in the future? (and please don't offer Innoventions as a substitute. Innoventions is a commercial, not an attraction).

[Bob O]

Am i mad/angry about horizons/wom, no!!!! When both rides were in operation i rode them often and for their time they were good, but time passed them by. Also neither attraction ever had a wait so it was nice to walk on to a ride instead of standing in line!!!
And while some here may have fallen under some pixie dust spell and believe the mass's out their loved these attractions like they did(as well as their so called true disney friends) the fact that neither attraction had lines speaks volumes of the overall popularity of these attractions. Or are we too believe they are more popular than TT is or MS will be which have (in tt's case) hour long waits which are common.
The true fact is neither attraction has ever been considered a true disney classic like potc/hm/tot/sm.
The bottom line is that neither attraction had the popularity to justify being in the park and were smartly removed by attractions that will be very busy and will help to increase attendance and merchandise sales. Which wom/horizons didnt do!!
Now should have disney put in different attractions than tt/ms can be debated but it was smart to remove attractions that no longer developed crowds of people to go on them.
And as much as we love potc/hm if either attraction fails to have enough ridership they will also be removed.
Now i guess before disney changes any ride they will have to contact people who trade pins as maybe they are the only true disney fans!!!

[WDWHound]

Just for the record Bob, I suspect that no group of Disney Fans could ever come to full agreement on issues like this. Clearly your opinions make you no more or less a fan. And while I miss Horizons and WOM, the big thing for me is not that they decided to get rid of them, but that we never got another darkride to fill the void they left. Disney must tear down that which is not popular (my one exception would be the CoP, since I see that as one of the few remeining Walt originals), but it would be nice if they at least tried to replace them with better rides of the same type.

[Bob O]

Wdwhound-I would agree that i would also have liked a dark ride if done right alot better than i like tt which is a ok attraction but nothing special. It does seem that due to money disney is unwilling to put in the time and effort to make a new attraction matching the quality of potc/hm which are timeless and one of thier last attempts Superstar Limo in DCA was a disaster from all reports. I love dark rides but if they arent done properly they wont get repeat rides or sell merchandise which disney really wants atthis time.
While i have never been a fan of COP(my wife lovesit by the way) i would also agree that since it is one of the few remaining attractions Walt did have a hand it should be kept for its historical perspective even if not that busy in ridership/viewership.
While i am a lover of thrill rides like TOT/Indiana Jones at DL i do believe that all disney parks need to have a mix of all type of attractions to meet all of their guests needs. But if rides have little to no lines they do need to be replaced and rides that arent classics should be repalced so as to keep the parks fresh and give the guests new things too experience.
If parks become stagnant/boring that wont make people want to make repeat visits.

[Barb]

But if rides still see significant lines, why do they insist on getting rid of or changing such rides? Why mess with JIYI? The first was great, the second version was totally awful and the third is an acceptable replacement. Why take away Mr. Toad's Wild Ride? Both still had stong followings. Seems like popularity is not always the only reason to junking a ride or attraction.
I do agree, Bob, that the smart way for Disney to proceed to have something for everyone. They need to incorporate the classic with new and fun technology. I, too, am a huge fan of the dark ride. (Alice in Wonderland is DL in one of my favorites!) Why not use that same idea to produce something new and exciting? Why does every new ride have to be a stomach churner? I can only handle so many simulator rides in one vacation. Why does making one toss their cookies have to be a prerequisite for a new attraction?

[Bob O]

Barb-I cant explain all that disney does!!!!
I agree that JIYI was a awful decision!!!!! They made a excellant ride medicore and im guessing they wanted to make the ride smaller so they could sell more in the expanded merchandise area.
As for Toad i think they were too cheap to build a new building for pooh so they took out the ride instead and also added space too sell merchandise. They are probably justifying their decision by saying the mr Toad characters arent well known(not that i buy it).
And i do agree with a good mix of attractions for all guests. IMHO they are still short of attractions geared to the non-crumb cruncher set but im sure alot would disagree with that!! I would love to see a great dark ride but at this time they are either too cheap or lack the creativity to add one!! Its sad that we get the dinsoaur attraction at AK when it just pales in comparsion to a truely great attraction like Indy at DL when both are based on the same ride mechanism.

[DC7800]

Originally posted by Bob O
the fact that neither attraction had lines speaks volumes of the overall popularity of these attractions. Or are we too believe they are more popular than TT is or MS will be which have (in tt's case) hour long waits which are common. The true fact is neither attraction has ever been considered a true disney classic like potc/hm/tot/sm. The bottom line is that neither attraction had the popularity to justify being in the park and were smartly removed by attractions that will be very busy and will help to increase attendance and merchandise sales. Which wom/horizons didnt do!! Now should have disney put in different attractions than tt/ms can be debated but it was smart to remove attractions that no longer developed crowds of people to go on them. And as much as we love potc/hm if either attraction fails to have enough ridership they will also be removed.

Actually, the fact that neither Horizons or World of Motion had long lines says absolutely nothing about their overall popularity or the number of guests riding (which is really two different criteria). So long as every seat in every ride vehicle is occupied by a warm body, the attraction will carry the same number of guests whethor those guests waited in line two minutes or two hours. Granted, this hinges on filling every seat (a condition Horizons didn't always meet, particularly in it's final years, though there are other reasons behind this), but the mere fact a ride has a long line doesn't mean it's popular. Attractions with low (loading) capacities also develop long lines. I once waited a good thirty minutes to ride the Mike Fink Keel Boats, as only one boat was operating. Wonder how many people passed through wait-free Spaceship Earth in the same time frame?

Thus, the argument to remove (supposedly unpopular) attractions solely because they lack long lines doesn't hold water. By that standard, The American Adventure, COP, Impressions de France, WDW Railroad, and the TTA should all be removed. None have lines, yet all are quite popular. Sure, you may have to wait for one show to finish (or a train to arrive) before you enter the theater, but that is quite a different case from a "queue".

In fact, a walk-on Horizons was indeed more popular than many attractions with long lines, such as Space Mountain (2,660 people per hour for Horizons, vs, 900-1,200 for SM. Again, this assumes filling every seat. But, Horizons still "wins" even when running with half it's ride vehicles empty!). Until Horizons was allowed to wither and deteriorate from neglect (and endured several cycles of open again/closed again/open again) it probably did ok. You cannot honestly compare (popularity or attendance) of Horizons in its final months to Test Track or Mission:Space as new attractions. And, of course, the effort (and money) necessary to bring Horizons (or World of Motion) back to respectability seems trivial, even for Disney. Further, both attractions were simply lost too soon to be seriously considered as "classics", not because they werent...

Now, haven't we had this (actually fun!) little debate before........ :D :D :D :D :D