Florida Amendment 2

[inkkognito]

I am not a lesbian, although I have two very close family members who are gay and I work professionally with many gays/lesbians. Thus I was appalled, horrified, and generally downright incensed to find out that Amendment 2 will be on Florida's ballot. Apparently it's not enough that marriage is illegal for gay couples here. Now the nut jobs want it as part of the state constitution so it's much, much, much harder to ever repeal or change. Why do people feel the need to interfere in things that are none of their business? If two people love each other, what's the big deal about allowing them to marry? Just about the only reason I usually get when I press people is religion, and then I remind them that they're entitled to their beliefs but that religion has no place in state (or national) law. Mind you, I am a Christian but the God I worship doesn't judge people on the way He created them, and considering that He created the rainbow I suspect He's not as anti-gay as some people would like to believe ;)

Sorry to rant, but I am just so furious. As a counselor to many gay/lesbian couples, I know how the ridiculous prohibitions on formalizing their relationship affects them. I've know people denied access to a partner in the hospital because they are not "related" and people kicked out of their homes and cut off from their finances because a partner died and the family stepped in and was able to legally do that. It makes me spit nails!!! I sure hope the Floridian gay community will get out there and make sure this stupid amendment doesn't pass, and I hope there will be plenty of "straight but not narrow" voters like me who will assist in the process.

Okay, rant over! Even therapists need some therapeutic venting once in awhile.

[rosiep]

Thanks for posting. I wholeheartedly agree.
While I live in a progressive city..the state as a whole is pretty conservative.
Whenever peoples human rights are denied it affects us all. Yesterday it was black people, today it's gays and tomorrow it will be all the blue eyed blond hairs......

It behooves us all to act now and speak up!!!!!

[OrlandoMike]

Email I recieved from Equality Florida.

BTW, does anyone know if this needs a "super majority" or just 51% to pass?

The day we expected has finally arrived.

A few hours ago, the Florida Department of Elections officially certified the deceptive "marriage protection amendment" to be on the November ballot.

Disappointing? Yes. Surprising? No.

After 4 years of signature gathering, the only surprise is how narrowly they reached the deadline.

Those pushing this onto the ballot hope to strip away rights from all unmarried Floridians by stoking anti-gay sentiments. Some of them are motivated by a desire to impose their particular religious beliefs on people through the Constitution. Others see this as tactic to help far right candidates in the November Presidential election. What this isn't about is "gay marriage".

Two state laws and a court decision already block access to marriage for gay couples in Florida. Now, this amendment would close the door to civil unions and any meaningful domestic partnership benefits for all unmarried Floridians - gay and straight.

Beyond the legal obstacles to taking care of our loved ones, this amendment is intended to deliver a dangerous symbolic blow by denigrating the lives of gay Floridians. It is the singling out, the idea that the majority should vote on the rights and the humanity of fellow citizens that makes today's news a particular and personal insult. And it is why in the wake of these amendment battles across the country, we consistently see an increase in anti-gay hate crimes.

I hope we give ourselves just a moment to grieve that this has been forced upon us. To feel the hurt , sadness and anger that are appropriate ways to feel in the wake of this news.

Knowing, intellectually, that we must face this challenge is one thing. Having it finally arrive in all its ugly spitefulness is another. It was difficult not to hold onto a glimmer of hope Florida would avoid this fight especially as the far right struggled to meet the deadline.

But now is the time to take a deep breath and allow that false hope to transform into the deep resolve to DO THE WORK that will DEFEAT this measure.

And we can DEFEAT it. Opposition to the amendment is broad, diverse and growing everyday. We stand with the NAACP, Florida Alliance for Retired Americans, Florida Consumer Alliance, Planned Parenthood, and more than 200 other civil rights, union, campus, faith, senior and social justice organizations who are part of the Fairness for All Families Coalition working to DEFEAT this amendment.

Polling shows we are within striking distance of beating this amendment if we are willing to do the work. Talk to your circle of influence, step outside your comfort zones and engage the people in your neighborhoods and the places where you shop.

Our job is to bring this message to millions of voters in Florida who are unaware and ill-informed about this measure. And experience has shown us our conversations matter. On Jan 29th, Equality Florida members were part of the Fairness for All Families Primary Day of Action that drew more than 500 volunteers out to talk to voters at polling places across the state.

Seasoned activist and first-time volunteers reported back with excitement how often a quick conversation had persuaded someone to vote NO on the amendment.



Click on the photo to see a great video that captures the energy of that amazing day.

In November, your friends, family and co-workers will go to the polls and decide whether our families will be denied adequate protections, whether essential benefits can be stripped away and whether anti-gay political attacks are a good investment for the far right.

It is time for all of us to do something. Here's a good place to start: Sign the Pledge to Vote No and personally recruit 5 of your friends to do likewise. If everyone on this list did that today we would have nearly half a million more supporters by Monday.

We can't allow the people in our lives to go to the polls in November and make decisions about us without ensuring they hear the truth about this amendment and the harm it would inflict.

Working together we can DEFEAT this amendment.

Sincerely,


Nadine Smith Executive Director

[inkkognito]

I believe it needs 60% thanks to the amendment passed last year that raised the threshhold.

[Miss Jasmine]

I am SICK that this has made it to an amendment. And I think something hinky went on with certifying signatures. I will be doing my best to get this thing voted down.

I apologize in advance though, as I did my best to get Amendment 1 (property tax reform) shot down and well that didn't happen.

[Ileana]

I am SICK that this has made it to an amendment. And I think something hinky went on with certifying signatures. I will be doing my best to get this thing voted down.

I apologize in advance though, as I did my best to get Amendment 1 (property tax reform) shot down and well that didn't happen.

I told everyone I could "vote no on 1" but the illiterate and blue hairs were out in droves unfortunately

[MyManGoofy!]

This is the kind of stuff that makes it hard to live in Florida.

I am working very hard to get the message out there that we do not have to sit back and let this happen - we can defeat this!

It is nice to see someone like Miss Jasmine from the other side of the aisle on this side of this issue!!

[ConcKahuna]

I am SICK that this has made it to an amendment. And I think something hinky went on with certifying signatures. I will be doing my best to get this thing voted down.

I apologize in advance though, as I did my best to get Amendment 1 (property tax reform) shot down and well that didn't happen.

Yup, and now most FL counties have to cut their education budgets by $500,000 to $1 million annually! Where did people think the money was going to come from for Amendment 1??? :confused3

[smartestnumber5]

I'm in Michigan and the state passed one of these amendments (well here's it called a "proposition"--it was also #2 on the ballot that year) in 2004. It sounds like the FL amendment has similarly broad language as ours which can be used to get rid of domestic partner benefits. :sad2:

The group that got the proposition on the ballot in Michigan swore over and over again that it would not affect domestic partner benefits. The group had a lot of support from the Catholic Church of Michigan--half a million dollars plus campaigning during mass and fliers/videos in favor of the proposition sent out to parishoners. The Catholic officials who led these efforts also swore up and down that the proposition had nothing to do with domestic partner benefits and no one would lose health insurance because of it. :sad2:

Well it was only a few months after the passage of the proposition that the first lawsuit against domestic partner benefits was brought and it was decided that such benefits (when provided by state employers) are unconstitutional in the state of Michigan. The case is currently on appeal to the state supreme court, but as of now "domestic partner benefits" by state employers are prohibited.

Many of the universities/colleges in Michigan have responded by coming up with new plans to provide benefits to same-sex couples but in a way that does not appear to be parallel to marriage. Thankfully, we are still able to get GF insurance through my university under one of these new plans. The new plan requires a bunch of stuff that is not required for a legal spouse to get insurance: 1) we must share a legal residence, 2) must not be allowed to marry under the state law, 3) must not be related in a way that would bar marriage under the state law, 4) must be 18, 5) we must have a joint checking account, 6) she must be the beneficiary of my IRA, life insurance, or will, 7) she must have either financial or medical durable power of attorney for me. The idea is that since married people often don't have 5-7, the university is not trying to make an insitution that is "like marriage" but for gay people (that is technically what the proposition banned). So far this arrangement hasn't been challenged in court, but I have no doubt that it will be.

What surprises me is how little anybody who isn't directly affected or in a state in which the amendment is currently on the ballot knows about these laws. The national media paid little attention when they passed and the little attention they did get focused on them as "gay marriage bans"--the potential some of them had/have to wipe out domestic partner benefits was largely ignored. As far as I can tell domestic partner benefits really started to take off in the mid 90s--and now we're going backwards almost 25 years and nobody even seems to notice! :confused3

[mickeyfan1]

We have legal civil unions, as of 1/1/08. But better than that, the law also allows for recognition of all unions, be them civil or marriage for same sex couples no matter where the joining took place. Now some over zealous legislators want to repeal that part of the law. This law was not passed by the voters, it was passed by our duly elected representatives and signed by our governor. SO far the great state of New Hampshire hasn't fallen off the edge of the map, and we have not become a magnet for all gay couples, as was predicted by many. ALthough my house is for sale and if there are any of you contemplating a move........................ Ha Ha !!!

I say the government needs to MYOB. Give equal rights to all people. Period.

[safetymom]

Add me to the list of those thinking this is terrible. I agree that government needs to mind its own business.

I voted no on Amendment 1 also. If there is anything I can do to defeat this amendment please let me know.

[inkkognito]

Safetymom, talk to as many straight friends and neighbors as you can about this. Too many of them are totally uninformed.

For those who don't believe that same-sex couples should be able to marry, they will hear the hot button words "Ban Gay Marriage" and be reactionary to that. Approach them from the standpoint that this amendment is much more broad than that.

For those who are neutral, approach them from a standpoint of civil rights. I would hope most right-minded people couldn't back an amendment that denies a human right to an entire segment of the population.

I have been making my opinion known to as many fellow Floridians as I can. I might not change everyone's mind, but it can't hurt. Many don't realize the impact of this ridiculous and far-reaching travesty of an amendment. Let your straight friends know that this isn't just a "gay issue"...it's much, much bigger than that. I have no desire to set a precdent for denying a basic right to a particular group.

[zulemara]

WI passed the same thing last year and it sucks...horribly. My bf and I want to move to FL in a year or two and this will not make him happy.

Good luck to all of you. It will be a hard ugly battle against ignorance, bigotry, and people who will call for the "defense of the institution of marriage"

Every single open minded individual needs to vote. I know Orlando will take it down, but I worry about other parts of the state. Reach out to everyone!

[OH 6]

How can those of us NOT in Florida help with this issue? Does Equality Florida have a fund set-up for advertising or outreach against this issue on the ballot?

Mike and I too would like to live in Florida one day, more than likely in retirement and I'd like to be able to know that Mike and I could be there for each other if we were hospitalized, inherit property, etc...so an investment made today could help those of us that want to consider Florida for a home in the future.

Any suggestions?

[DVC~OKW~96]

I rec'd the same email OrlandoMike. :(

I voted no on amendment 1 for all the good it did. Just watch the mess that is going to create.

This amendment 2 scares me, it really does. :scared: It just seems like its an easy way for the intolerant among us to gain the upper hand.

Really? Does it honestly matter what dangly bits my partner has or doesn't have? Well? DOES IT?

[OrlandoMike]

http://ga4.org/Equalityflorida/join.html?r=9p_JrWKqVBfrE

Here is the site to sign up for Emails for Equality Florida if you are so interisted.

[TuckandStuiesMom]

All signed up.:goodvibes

[NHdisneylover]

I was reading along and about to post when I got to Nicholas' post. Nicholas, we think alike. Mike, Barb, somebody? I'll sign up with Eqauilty Florida--but please post if you know of other things to help.

[rpmdfw]

I know Orlando will take it down, but I worry about other parts of the state. Reach out to everyone!

Don't be so sure. An Orlando-base organization is behind this evil amendment.

I too, voted no on Amendment One, and have already begun actively discussing this with friends and co-workers. Sadly, as someone note above, the illiterate, uniformed, and elderly were out in force to pass Amendment One. They're exactly the people who will also vote for Amendment Two, so it's very important that everyone gets their open minded friends to the polls.

The vote takes place just 36 days after Scott and I have our "Big Fat Gay Disney Wedding". We have the perfect excuse to discuss "Gay Marriage" issues, and believe me, I'll use it!

And here's some good ammo to use against the "Gay marriage destroys the sanctity of marriage" argument:

Massachusetts has one of the LOWEST divorce rates in the country; despite having legalized gay marraige several years ago. No straight marraiges were harmed and the statistics back that up.

[MyManGoofy!]

I posted this over on the Liberals Only thread on the CB but they are a little election heavy today (rightly so) and this has really gotten me steamed. I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that this is the year 2008 and we are still dealing with this kind of ...I don't know ...what would you call it?


The Meaning and Purpose of the Florida Marriage Protection Amendment

The Text of Florida Marriage Protection Amendment:

“Inasmuch as marriage is the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife, no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized.”

I. The Purpose of the Amendment.

A. The Amendment defines and preserves marriage as the union of one man and one woman as
husband and wife.

B. The Amendment prohibits any other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial
equivalent thereof from being valid or recognized as marriage.

II. The Amendment, Domestic Partnerships and Civil Unions.

A. The Amendment does not prohibit the state or local government from passing laws which confer
rights to unmarried persons as long as the laws are not designed to treat unmarried relationships
as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof.

B. The Amendment does not affect benefits offered or contracted in the private sector.

C. The Amendment prohibits any other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial
equivalent thereof from being valid or recognized as marriage.

Ok - I do not normally speak legalese - but doesn't the wording of the Amendment pretty much guarantee that domestic partnerships/civil union will be affected? I hate liars.

Oh - and I love the whole "this is not a move to push a Christian agenda into law" that some try to use. Chuh - check out the list of endorsements.

Amendment 2 Endorsements (http://www.florida4marriage.org/)

Here is a snippet:
Rony Aceitano Minister I.R.C. Renacimiento Cristiano
Kenneth Adkins Founder and CEO The Adkins Agency
Richard Albertson Founding President Live the Life Ministries
Ramon Arias Pastor Local Church
Harold Armstrong President Florida Christian College
Gregory Art Pastor First Baptist Church
Rafael Arza State Representative Florida House
Frank Attkisson State Representative, District 79 Florida House
Juda Attkisson Church Relations Coordinator Florida Family Policy Council
Henry Babers Pastor Parkview Christian Center
Carey Baker State Senator, District 20 Florida Senate
Nolan Ball Apostle The Rock of Panama City
Angela Bartlett Owner Diversified Mgmt & Construction
Dennis Baxley State Representative, District 24 Florida House
Kerry Beaty Pastor Lone Oak Missionary Baptist Church
W. Doyle Bell Senior Pastor Fellowship Baptist Church
William Reed Bell, Sr. M.D. Emeritus, Board of Directors American College of Pediatrics
Travis Bennefield Pastor First Baptist Church of Casselberry
Maurice Bennett Pastor Grace Apostolic Temple Inc.
Moses Betances Business Owner Iglesia Renacimiento Cristiano
Gus Bilirakis State Representative, District 48 Florida House
Brian Blair County Commissioner Hillsborough County BOCC
James Book Senior Minister First Christian Church of Winter Park
Joseph Bowles Pastor Shiloh Baptist Church
Dr. John Brackin Executive Director Palm Lake Baptist Association


This was taken from their home page:
http://www.florida4marriage.org/

"Children need a mom and a dad. It is just that simple. When you create a same sex marriage, you are simultaneously creating a same sex family. Same sex marriages subject children to a vast, untested, social experiment. Homosexual marriage proponents must take the position that there is no inherent value or importance to human femininity and human masculinity when it comes to the socialization of children. Dad and mom's are optional. This is the assumption of their position."

Geez - They call temselves Florida4Marriage but I think the are more like Florida Against Non-traditional families. I wonder - once they have "saved" us from the horror of a homosexual family what kind of families they will "protect" us from then?

[OrlandoMike]

And yet Bobby and Suzie can still go to Vegas on Tuesday, get married, and on Wednesday wake up with a hang over and get a divorce!:scared1:

What's the divorce rate in the USA these days?

What kind of Marriage are they trying to protect?:confused3

[Miss Jasmine]

I posted this over on the Liberals Only thread on the CB but they are a little election heavy today (rightly so) and this has really gotten me steamed. I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that this is the year 2008 and we are still dealing with this kind of ...I don't know ...what would you call it?

Hatred? Intolerance? Stupidity? Take your pick. Add a few more if you like.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to invite the government into his or her bedroom. :confused3 Of course this is coming from the person who hated having to cough up money to get a marriage license and getting permission from "the man". Marriage/unions should be a contractual matter not involving the state.

[EWR2AUS]

Isn't it funny how these ultra-conservative ballot initiatives seem to only pop up in presidential election and, to a lesser extent, mid-term election, years? Its actually not funny at all but more of the Rove-esque divide and conquer politics that has characterized the last 7 years under this administration.

Give the crazy conservative base a nice, meaty issue to get them out to the polls (based solely in hate, of course) and while they are there they will also vote a Republican straight party ticket.

The only way for us to end both the discrimination that this amendment would enforce and the other goal of motivating the Florida conservative base is to make sure that an equal number of fair minded people are also energized to vote.

Still counting down the number of days until this regime is out of power....

[ChrizJen]

Missouri passed the "Defense Of Marriage Act" in 2004, which included an ammendment to the state's constitution to ban gay marriage. :sad2:

Defense of Marriage?!?!
Defense against what?
Against drunk, drive-through Vegas weddings? Sadly not.
Defense against divorce? Sadly not.
No, it's defense against allowing loving, committed adults to legally marry. :confused3

Unfortunately, we're part of a minority. And the majority has taken it upon themselves to decide how we should live. I just don't understand how people can take an entire group of people, and throw their basic human rights around like a beach ball. It's sad, and it's enfuriating...:mad:

[inkkognito]

It is so bizarre that people get caught up on that word "marriage." I have argued till I am blue in the face with people who don't have any gay bias per se but who insist, "I just don't want them to call it MARRIAGE." ***? And that's a good reason to vote for this henious amendment?! Who the &^!% cares what it is called...that is NOT what this is about. It's about a state in the supposedly free United States restricting a right for an entire group of people for no good, factual reason whatsoever. But that one stupid word is going to win them a lot of votes because people are so hung up on that one little point. I've had them say, "But marriage has always been defined as between a man and a woman." By who? Can't definitions change? African-Americans were once defined as constituting only a certain percentage of a person. So should we have continued to cling to that?

My undies are really in a bunch because the M word is the biggest defiance I get when I talk to otherwise right-minded people about this. How did one little word get such big power? And why do people care so much who marries whom when it has absolutely no effect on them personally?

[ky07]

Alright Florida way to go !!!!!

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

I'm so sorry that the zealots are intent on stomping out equality in FL. :sad2: Hopefully this piece of crap legislation won't pass.

EDIT:
I was just looking at the HRC site and I didn't see this mentioned, either on the home page or in the FL section. Somebody might want to give them a heads up. I know in the past they have put a lot of concentrated efforts into defeating things like this.

[ky07]

I'm so sorry that the zealots are intent on stomping out equality in FL. :sad2: Hopefully this piece of crap legislation won't pass.

EDIT:
I was just looking at the HRC site and I didn't see this mentioned, either on the home page or in the FL section. Somebody might want to give them a heads up. I know in the past they have put a lot of concentrated efforts into defeating things like this.

Its not crap and hope it does pass:cool1:

[rpmdfw]

Alright Florida way to go !!!!!

Thanks for your illiterate response! You lose all credibility making your well thought out point when you type "alright" when "all right" is correct.

[Miss Jasmine]

:grouphug: You all should not have to deal with such ugliness. I am so sorry. :flower3:

[jkCT]

Forgive me, don't know how to quote just part of something but re-read this from above...

"Children need a mom and a dad. It is just that simple. When you create a same sex marriage, you are simultaneously creating a same sex family. Same sex marriages subject children to a vast, untested, social experiment. Homosexual marriage proponents must take the position that there is no inherent value or importance to human femininity and human masculinity when it comes to the socialization of children. Dad and mom's are optional. This is the assumption of their position."

So we also need to take all the children away from single moms and single dads everywhere, because they are not raising kids in a mom-and-dad relationship. Go ahead, try that one.

So FL still says that same-sex couples cannot be foster or adoptive parents either? Whoever believes that one should have to take the kids that a loving gay family would gladly have parented. (This gets me riled up. I work in foster care, and three of my best, most committed families are a lesbian couple, a single gay man and a couple in which mom is transgender.)

Jen

[smartestnumber5]

Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve:lmao: :lmao:

Hey you're quoting "But I'm a Cheerleader" there aren't you!?

I love that movie! What's your favorite part?

I love the part where they talk about their roots :lmao:. My friends and I search for ours for fun all the time. Mine is that my name is "Amanda"--"A" "Man" "Duh"--get it? :rotfl2:

[inkkognito]

Wow...just wow...some people. Makes me ashamed of being a Christian...oh wait, I don't have to be ashamed because they're the ones who apparently didn't understand Christ's teachings of acceptance of EVERYONE (and yes, God did create Steve too no matter how the informed like to banter "cute" little sayings).

I am a doctor of psychology and I wholeheartedly support the adoption of children by gay/lebians and parenthood by EVERYONE who wants to be a parent. There is no inherent harm in a child being raised by same-sex parents...the important thing is that it is a loving home, and it's ridiculous that FL already stops loving individuals and couples in the gay community from sharing that with children in need.

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

For the first time I have actually engaged the "ignore" feature. :rolleyes1 Please stop quoting the zealots so I don't have to be exposed to such drivel.

I know some straight parents who would curl your toes. Really incredibly selfish people who have no business having children. My best gay and lesbian friends have chosen not to have children, but they would be terrific parents. I would trust them with my own DS.

[2moms]

To quote Shakespeare, even "the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose". :headache:
Unfortunately the religious right has been misusing Bible text to persecute people for centuries...it has been used to support slavery, the Holocaust, and the killings of women labeled as witches for example. I find it more ironic that the people who so vehemently quote these verses seem to leave out the ones which oppose things like divorce and birth control - both of which are perfectly acceptable today.
What ever happened to "Love thy neighbor"? :confused3

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

[ky07]

To quote Shakespeare, even "the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose". :headache:
Unfortunately the religious right has been misusing Bible text to persecute people for centuries...it has been used to support slavery, the Holocaust, and the killings of women labeled as witches for example. I find it more ironic that the people who so vehemently quote these verses seem to leave out the ones which oppose things like divorce and birth control - both of which are perfectly acceptable today.
What ever happened to "Love thy neighbor"? :confused3

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

And I love how gay people love to quote the bible and only use the part they like and no I don't believe in divorce or birth control as well as abortion is out right murder and for one more thing is if you read the bible it clearly states no man shall lay with another man and no woman shall lay with another woman for it is an abomination agianst the Lord and one last thing is why do think that GOD destoryed sodom and gamora.

[EWR2AUS]

I would love to know why the Christian conservative contingent in this country believes that they own the market on deciding who is right and who is wrong. You believe that my God-given sexual orientation is wrong. Fine. That's your view. But that's all it is - your view.

Please keep in mind that your predecesors-in-crime, 50 years ago, were making the same Biblical arguments against inter-racial marriage.

[ky07]

I would love to know why the Christian conservative contingent in this country believes that they own the market on deciding who is right and who is wrong. You believe that my God-given sexual orientation is wrong. Fine. That's your view. But that's all it is - your view.

Please keep in mind that your predecesors-in-crime, 50 years ago, were making the same Biblical arguments against inter-racial marriage.

Still don't believe in it and you want to live that lifestyle and anyone strait is suppose to bow down to ya:worship: don't think so

[EWR2AUS]

Still don't believe in it and you want to live that lifestyle and anyone strait is suppose to bow down to ya:worship: don't think so

And with that, my friend, hung by your own ignorance, I am signing off. Well, with one obvious footnote. We don't want you to bow down to us. Trust us - we really don't care what you do. We do, however, refuse to be treated as second class citizens to you - denied of hundreds of federal and state benefits reserved by the majority for the majority.

Ok, I'm ready to head back and talk about Disney World some more. ;)

[ConcKahuna]

And I love how gay people love to quote the bible and only use the part they like and no I don't believe in divorce or birth control as well as abortion is out right murder and for one more thing is if you read the bible it clearly states no man shall lay with another man and no woman shall lay with another woman for it is an abomination agianst the Lord and one last thing is why do think that GOD destoryed sodom and gamora.

Funny, I always though the story of Sodom and Gamora was about people who turned from God, and they were punished for Idoltry.

And does the bible not say "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself"?

But the most important part is that the Bible was written by man, and has been changed and rewritten many times since the origional books were written. A lot of the meanings people pull from the bible do not fit the origional version at all. For example, the term used for "virgin" in arameic is also means simplay "a young, unwed girl."

But all of that means nothing. My point is that if I CHOSE to be gay, then I could understand your point. I did not choose it. When I started puberty and my sexuality began to emerge, I hated myself for it. I was suicidal. I would have done anything to change what I was. But it didnt happen. I finally came to terms that God made me the way I am. I can live my life as well as I can, and still be gay. God is not hatred, God is love. It's the people who can't see that who have turned away from God and will have a lot to attone for before they will be welcome in His kingdom.

If you dont like the way I am, all I can say is I am who God made me to be. Don't blame be, blame God (if you dare).

[Tigger&Belle]

Look at all the wonderful, supportive people who have posted on this thread. :thumbsup2 Have to look at the glass as half full instead of thinking about the narrow-minded bigots who lurk.

Oh, and spellcheck is a wonderful thing. ;)

[RickinNYC]

Gonna have to ask that folks remain civil to one another, whether we agree with others or not.

[inkkognito]

I'm gonna have to find that Ignore feature. The banjo music is getting a little loud!

[ConcKahuna]

Gonna have to ask that folks remain civil to one another, whether we agree with others or not.

Hehe, I heard Rick has a special liscence....

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b230/Zanderon2/Forums/untitled-2.jpg

[CanadianGuy]

And I love how gay people love to quote the bible and only use the part they like and no I don't believe in divorce or birth control as well as abortion is out right murder and for one more thing is if you read the bible it clearly states no man shall lay with another man and no woman shall lay with another woman for it is an abomination agianst the Lord and one last thing is why do think that GOD destoryed sodom and gamora.

So.. 'partial Bible belief' is not acceptable ... it's worth noting that...

The Bible prohibits the eating of shrimp, clams & lobster...

Leviticus 11:9-12
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10
These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

The eating of pigs is prohibited (as are rabbits incidentally..

Leviticus 11:4-8

4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

And slavery is OK...

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Sexual slavery is OK...

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

If they won't be your slaves willingly, you can murder them...

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

And don't even get me started on the eye for an eye, the public stonings, the ritual human sacrifices, the approval of wife-beating etc...

Obviously I can go on.. The Bible says LOTS of things... EVERYONE picks and chooses from it to form their own relationship with God.

Or is it safe to presume that all Christians avoid shellfish, pork and approve of slavery and murder and all the other bad things that the Bible seems to condone?

In this day and age, to blindly accept every word in it as printed is folly.

Knox

[rpmdfw]

So.. 'partial Bible belief' is not acceptable ... it's worth noting that...

The Bible prohibits the eating of shrimp, clams & lobster...



The eating of pigs is prohibited (as are rabbits incidentally..



And slavery is OK...



Sexual slavery is OK...



If they won't be your slaves willingly, you can murder them...



And don't even get me started on the eye for an eye, the public stonings, the ritual human sacrifices, the approval of wife-beating etc...

Obviously I can go on.. The Bible says LOTS of things... EVERYONE picks and chooses from it to form their own relationship with God.

Or is it safe to presume that all Christians avoid shellfish, pork and approve of slavery and murder and all the other bad things that the Bible seems to condone?

In this day and age, to blindly accept every word in it as printed is folly.

Knox


Not to mention that Leviticus mentions that wearing garments woven from two different fibers is an abomination. My, my, my, all those poly-cotton blends out there. We're ALL going to hell for those!
:rotfl2: :lmao: :rotfl:

[CanadianGuy]

Not to mention that Leviticus mentions that wearing garments woven from two different fibers is an abomination. My, my, my, all those poly-cotton blends out there. We're ALL going to hell for those!
:rotfl2: :lmao: :rotfl:

About about Poly-acrylic .. that's really two plastics.. I should be ok there right? :)

Knox

[rpmdfw]

About about Poly-acrylic .. that's really two plastics.. I should be ok there right? :)

Knox

They may not mention it in the bible, but I'm SURE poly-acrylic is a SIN!

:lmao:

[CanadianGuy]

They may not mention it in the bible, but I'm SURE poly-acrylic is a SIN!

:lmao:

AMEN!:thumbsup2

[RickinNYC]

Not to mention that Leviticus mentions that wearing garments woven from two different fibers is an abomination. My, my, my, all those poly-cotton blends out there. We're ALL going to hell for those!
:rotfl2: :lmao: :rotfl:

I shall start praying for the metrosexuals of the world.

[OrlandoMike]

Dont forget all the Disney employees!

Talk about a cotton/poly/ethyl/plastic blend!:lmao:

[Saxton]

Looks like Rick is using his new license!:thumbsup2

[Tigger&Belle]

Looks like Rick is using his new license!:thumbsup2

Yes it sure does! ;)

[ConcKahuna]

Leviticus 11: 7-8
7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

I hope people realize this also means that playing football is a mortal sin. Looks like the whole NFL is going to hell...

[paigevz]

I hope people realize this also means that playing football is a mortal sin. Looks like the whole NFL is going to hell...

If you have to believe in order to get into Heaven, shouldn't you also have to believe in Hell to get into Hell? ;)

[GurGie]

I voted against amendment 1, although it didn't do any good.

I will do my best against this one...don't get me started on how this makes those of us with children feel. Our families have absolutely no protection in this state. :sad2:

[tlinus]

I hope people realize this also means that playing football is a mortal sin. Looks like the whole NFL is going to hell...

Who are you kidding, they were going there anyway :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[tlinus]

sorry to hear the government is being unreasonable

best wishes

[PghLybrt]

I hope people realize this also means that playing football is a mortal sin. Looks like the whole NFL is going to hell...

:scared1: oh wait i am headed there anyway! :rolleyes:

[zulemara]

Wow...just wow...some people. Makes me ashamed of being a Christian...oh wait, I don't have to be ashamed because they're the ones who apparently didn't understand Christ's teachings of acceptance of EVERYONE (and yes, God did create Steve too no matter how the informed like to banter "cute" little sayings).

I am a doctor of psychology and I wholeheartedly support the adoption of children by gay/lebians and parenthood by EVERYONE who wants to be a parent. There is no inherent harm in a child being raised by same-sex parents...the important thing is that it is a loving home, and it's ridiculous that FL already stops loving individuals and couples in the gay community from sharing that with children in need.

AMEN!

At least gay people can CHOOSE to have children. It pisses me off beyond belief to see some of the american trash who are allowed to keep having children.

All these arguments against gay rights are the SAME ones I heard in WI last year. Last time I checked, this nation is not supposed to be governed based on religious beliefs. Neither side should be quoting scripture because the Bible can be so easily twisted to your own side. IMO the New Testament is the only one that matters, but that's a debate for another thread.

[Rence]

What we need to understand is that the opposition to gay marriage is an emotional one, not logical or even really religious in nature. It is just folks gut reaction and largely because in their minds "Marriage has always been this way" (which it hasn't, marriage has changed dramatically over the years). Gay marriage is a change and it takes folks a while to get used to it - and they do. The polls are showing growing support for civil unions and gay marriage over time. Any of these amendments that pass today, will be repealed in the future. In the future, these amendments will be a real embarrassment for the states that have passed them.

If the anti-gay marriage argument were truly a religious argument - those opposed to gay marriage would look at the Bible as a whole and see that it is quite a large book that discusses many many issues - and that in terms of this large book, the references that can be construed as talking about homosexuality are really very few. If homosexuality were such a big deal it would have been mentioned a lot more, it would have appeared in the ten commandments and one would think that Christ would have broached the subject at least once.

There are many other issues discussed at much greater length in the Bible, and one would think that a person who believes that their religious beliefs should be codified into a state's constitution would focus on these issues first - after all, their holy text is much clearer on many other issues. For example, the bible is pretty damn clear on divorce. It pretty much condemns divorce, one can find passages that would permit divorce in cases of adultery, but that's about the only exception. This is much more clearly stated and emphasized much more, then any supposed anti-homosexual passages. So a person who truly believed that the Bible should be the basis for our state constitutions and truly wanted to protect marriage, would instead be pushing for a constitutional amendment to totally ban divorce, except possibly in cases of adultery. But they aren't doing this - so the whole issue really isn't about religion at all, else why would the ignore so much of the Bible and focus on very few passages.

The issue of marriage is for children is also just a smoke screen. If one carries the argument to the logical conclusion than no childless couple should be allowed to be married - this would mean children first marriage second, which of course is unacceptable to them. Other choices would be to have a fertility test prior to marriage and possibly nullify childless marriages after a certain amount of time. Many people today enter into heterosexual marriage and are either unable or unwilling to have children and those opposed to gay marriage don't seem to have a problem with that. So the issue that the purpose of marriage is to produce children really doesn't seem to be their true issue.

The argument that the "ideal" environment for children is to be raised by a two heterosexual parents also doesn't really hold up. There are a lot of studies that contradict this, but even if one accepts that it is "ideal" (which I do not) it is not the "only" environment in which children can be raised. If one follows the logic of only permitting the "ideal" environment that we must stop all single parent families - if an unwed person gets pregnant, what are we to do? Forced abortion? Of course not. I guess we have to tell them that they must get married or the child will be taken from them at birth. Then where do we find the heterosexual couples to raise these children? Sure there are families that want to adopt, but not enough to take in all the children we take away from unwed mothers. I guess that families may just be forced to take on additional children so that they can have the "ideal" environment. I guess we'd have some type of system where the government mandates that heterosexual families are forced to take on additional children as the need arises. This also raises the question of what do we do when a parent dies. How long exactly do we give the surviving parent to remarry before we take the children away so that they can be raised in an "ideal" environment. If you follow this argument through to its logical conclusion you see how it just doesn't hold up. If they are willing to allow these other less than "ideal" child rearing situations to continue, we see that this really isn't the argument.

It pretty much just boils down to ignorance, fear and an emotional knee-jerk reaction. Over time logic, rational thinking, tolerance etc. will win out. Unfortunately there will be a few more amendments like amendment 2 that will be passed in the mean time.

[BirdsOfPreyDave]

Virginia did it to us last year. Not only did they make same sex marriages and civil unions unconstitutional, just for good measure, they added a mean spirited extra bit that bans any contractural agreement that attempts to emmulate the legal benefits of marriage. I'm still trying to sort out how the ammendment has affected our wills and joint ownership of the house.

[OrlandoMike]

http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/actioncenter/events/hrc_fl_futurevolunteers/details.tcl

Another link to a site that is gonna fight.

This time its the HRC

[DevilDuckie]

Poor Steve. Adam and Eve get to be God's creations and what is Steve? Did he grow in the pumpkin patch? :sad2: I cry a little for him.

I think that phrase was invented by Adam's PR people. Notice how he gets billing in both segments? Overt propaganda.

[DVC~OKW~96]

I attended a symposium yesterday. Main topic was Forgiveness and how it can positively effect healing. (Controlled studies show that forgiving can decrease your BP which leads to a healthier you).

I was very heartened to see in the panel that discussed forgivenes in case study scenarios, this combination of people representing "religions:"

A Hindu Professor from the Hinud University of America (a man)
A Muslim from the Bilal Muslim Mission of America (one of my dearest friends, a woman!!!!)
A Bhuddist (forgive me if I've spelled that wrong, I always do) a woman
An RC priest (a man)
A Rabbi (a man)
A Universalist Reverend (a woman)
A Christian Reverend representing the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Community!!!! (a man).

I thought that the entire thing was pretty profound.

I felt that if we can have that sort of representation on a public panel and have Christianity (not that RC isn't Christian) represented by someone who is a leader of the LGBT church then we have to have some sort of chance to not pass this amendment.

Don't we? Please?

[inkkognito]

But then you have idiots like these so-called Christians:

http://www.wbbm780.com/Kansas-Church-To-Picket-Tinley-Park-Victims-Funera/1614652

Friggin idiots (same ones who picket the funerals of gays and soldiers) are picketing the funerals of the women shot at Lane Bryant in Tinley Park, IL. Why would God send His wrath down on Lane Bryant? Because transexuals/transgendered individuals might shop there. Some logic, huh?

As far as I'm concerned, any church that claims to be for human rights had better be against Amendment 2 or else they are bona fide hypocriates.

[SandrA9810]

What gets me is that Florida is home to the gayist city in America. Hasn't any one ever heard of Wilton mannors. It's halirous that at the bar, the beer bottles neon lights glow in a rainbow. This from it's website... Diversity is the strength of Wilton Manors. Children from many different ethnic backgrounds attend Wilton Manors Elementary School; the City’s Police Department employs African-American, Haitian, and Hispanic officers; and the City Commission includes openly gay elected officials.

For once we each have our own health insurance through Disney, but when kids come around I wanted to go part-time and have her carry insurance for every one. So much ticks me off, why does the government feel like they can butt into anything and everyone?

[OrlandoMike]

Hey!

Orlando's pretty gay. Has a huge celebration every June, and we have a gay city councilwoman! :cool1:

And don't forget about our governor who is a "confirmed bachelor"!:lmao:

[zulemara]

Hey!

Orlando's pretty gay. Has a huge celebration every June, and we have a gay city councilwoman! :cool1:

And don't forget about our governor who is a "confirmed bachelor"!:lmao:

I came out in Orlando on the college program and it's largely because of the very supportive community there that I have such an attachment to the area. It also just makes me so upset because I love FL to death and yet they threaten to do this crap to gay people. People tried to make a case in WI that if all the gay people went on strike or didn't spend money the local economy would fail, but I think there is a much stronger case in Florida.

All I can hope is that FL sticks to the(bad enough) guns it already has and will eventually make me proud, not ashamed, to live there

[DVC~OKW~96]

Hey! I never thought of Charlie that way! LOL! 'Course, it's not like I think of him much at all. :rolleyes1

I think Orlando is pretty gay, but not in a healthy dignified way. Yes we are here. Yes we support the economy in a huge way. No we don't have the same rights as others. We deal with the "you can be foster parents for the state, but not adopt" idiocy, now this amendment.

Gay friendly? Nope. Not where it matters. :confused3

[NHdisneylover]

Hey! I never thought of Charlie that way! LOL! 'Course, it's not like I think of him much at all. :rolleyes1

I think Orlando is pretty gay, but not in a healthy dignified way. Yes we are here. Yes we support the economy in a huge way. No we don't have the same rights as others. We deal with the "you can be foster parents for the state, but not adopt" idiocy, now this amendment.

Gay friendly? Nope. Not where it matters. :confused3


I don't know anything about politics in Oralndo. But, it sounds to me like Orlando is in many ways trying to be gay friendly but stuck in the middle of a state that is anything but. A smaller version of the same sort of thing that happens when states get it right and legalize gay marriage (or civil unions which is at least moving in the right direction--though I did think we had figured out seperate but not equal doesn't work), but the couple who have rights in a state have no federal rights at this point:headache: I sure hope the more civliized areas of your state are able to convince the rest of it that this is an idiotic (this is a G rated place, right?) idea at best.

[rpmdfw]

Orlando might not be as gay friendly as it seems, either. Sure, around Disney things are a lot better, but remember that the oranization the was pushing to get Amendment 2 onto the ballot in the first place is based out of Orlando.

Just sayin . . .

[inkkognito]

And don't forget about our governor who is a "confirmed bachelor"!:lmao:
LOL! When I told my husband "Thank goodness Crist isn't supporting that amendment," he looked at me as tho' I was nuts and said, "Well, duh!" The gov just doesn't set my gaydar off, but I should probably trust hubby. When one of his friends at work came out to him, he said, "Yeah, I already figured." His friend was shocked and said, "Who else do you think is gay here?" and hubby's accuracy amazed him.

While parts of Orlando might be gay-friendly, the rest of this state scares the heck out of me. It's not just intolerance of homosexuality....I was shocked by the racial bias too. I grew up in a racially diverse area of Chicago and have been around gay people most of my life, so it was a big culture shock to find out much of the country isn't nearly so open-minded. And now here's Amendment 2 as the icing on the bigot cake.

[inkkognito]

Orlando might not be as gay friendly as it seems, either. Sure, around Disney things are a lot better, but remember that the oranization the was pushing to get Amendment 2 onto the ballot in the first place is based out of Orlando.
Just sayin . . .
Isn't there also a group somewhere around here that "cures" people of their homosexuality? I just want to choke some sense into people like that!

[OrlandoMike]

Isn't there also a group somewhere around here that "cures" people of their homosexuality? I just want to choke some sense into people like that!

I think it's the same group. A friend of mine got wrapped up with them. Did some very serious psychological damage. The poor guy was a wreck for a few years!

[npmommie]

Isn't there also a group somewhere around here that "cures" people of their homosexuality? I just want to choke some sense into people like that!

One of my very best friends from college is a gay man. In our college days his mom had a very tough time accepting his homosexuality. so she decided he needed to see a psychiatrist.
well my friend went and lo and behold the psychiatrist is a gay man!! needless to say he wasn't "cured" as his mom had hoped.
such idiocy in the world astounds me!

[ConcKahuna]

The problem with FL is that there are a few Metro areas that are very gay friendly (Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, MIami) but just as much of the state is hard-core conservative. Just look at Tampa. It used to have a huge draw for tourists, but then it became illegal to advertise for gay events or locations in Tampa businesses, and their tourism took a dive.

[zulemara]

The problem with FL is that there are a few Metro areas that are very gay friendly (Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, MIami) but just as much of the state is hard-core conservative. Just look at Tampa. It used to have a huge draw for tourists, but then it became illegal to advertise for gay events or locations in Tampa businesses, and their tourism took a dive.

as it should! Serves them right!

[OrlandoMike]

Just another reason to get the NO ON 2 vote out!


Here's a newspaper account of the shocking story of Washington State resident Janice Langbehn, whose partner Lisa Pond died in Florida one year ago:

"... Pond, Langbehn's partner for nearly 18 years, was stricken in Miami with a brain aneurysm and died. Langbehn, a social worker, said officials at the University of Miami, Jackson Memorial Hospital did not recognize her or their jointly adopted children as part of Pond's family... Langbehn said she was informed by a social worker that they were in an 'anti-gay state' and that they needed legal paperwork before Langbehn could see Pond."
The Olympian, of Olympia, Washington, June 17, 2007

Janice didn't get to say goodbye. In Florida her family relationship was refused any recognition even in their hour of direst need.

Retired Florida residents Ed Lessen and Clarice Pollock have been together in a long-term domestic partnership "based on mutual love and respect" for 30 years. "We want to be able to take care of each other and visit each other in the hospital, if it should come to that," says Clarice. "This amendment will take that away."

In November, Floridians will be forced to vote on a ballot measure that would enshrine this kind of discrimination forever in the Florida Constitution and could ban benefits for all unmarried partners.

It's Valentine's Day, the time of year when we focus on love. It's time we stop this madness right here and now in Florida. With your support, we can defeat Florida Amendment #2 on November 4, 2008.

For Janice and her children, for Ed and Clarice and for all the others who need us to stand up and protect their right to care for their loved ones, I am asking you to make a donation of $100 or more to Fairness for All Families.

We can't abdicate this opportunity that's now before us. We must show our strength and get ahead of the opposition's deliberately confusing and deceptive message.

Include discrimination in the Florida Constitution? Never! Together, we'll mount the largest effort ever to defend our freedom to live and love.



Barbara DeVane,
Secretary for the Florida Alliance for Retired Americans,
Co-Chair Fairness for All Families

[freediverdude]

The biggest problem with this issue is that a lot of people confuse the legal and religious portions of marriages or unions or whatever you want to call it. They think it's all one thing, when it isn't. In the U.S., there is a legal part to it, the part where you go down to the courthouse and register, and then the religious part, the ceremony in the church. These two should be considered separate things. ANY two people over the age of 18 should be able to go down to the courthouse and register for legal rights as a union or "civil marriage" or whatever term we want to use. And then, as the other part, every church individually should have the right to choose to whom they want to grant a religious marriage ceremony. Or not to grant a religious ceremony, that is their choice as our freedom of religion.

I believe this would make both sides happy, if just everyone would become informed. Some organization needs to come out with a big program that stresses this. Eventually the courts will hopefully rule that the civil registration is a basic human right. And we don't have to call the legal part a "marriage" if it will make some people happier. But it should be equal for everyone on the legal side.

[zulemara]

The biggest problem with this issue is that a lot of people confuse the legal and religious portions of marriages or unions or whatever you want to call it. They think it's all one thing, when it isn't. In the U.S., there is a legal part to it, the part where you go down to the courthouse and register, and then the religious part, the ceremony in the church. These two should be considered separate things. ANY two people over the age of 18 should be able to go down to the courthouse and register for legal rights as a union or "civil marriage" or whatever term we want to use. And then, as the other part, every church individually should have the right to choose to whom they want to grant a religious marriage ceremony. Or not to grant a religious ceremony, that is their choice as our freedom of religion.

I believe this would make both sides happy, if just everyone would become informed. Some organization needs to come out with a big program that stresses this. Eventually the courts will hopefully rule that the civil registration is a basic human right. And we don't have to call the legal part a "marriage" if it will make some people happier. But it should be equal for everyone on the legal side.


that's my EXACT philosophy! Finally someone else who realizes this! You are dead on, but it takes not only the bigots, but the gay community to realize this before anything will come of it.

[DVC~OKW~96]

Yep, I agree. Let them have the term marriage.

We can call our legal bond a UOTLP. (Union of Two Loving People).

[OrlandoMike]

For those of you who don't live in Central Florida, you probably dont have any idea who Jim Philips is. He has his own radio show here in town, and is probably the most popular talk show host in the area. Here is his take, as provided by his commentary on WESH Channel 2. (I tried to link a video, but couldn't for some reason.) The folks on the "Philips Phile" have always been very gay friendly!

Thanks Jim!



We have yet another chance in November to prove to the nation that Floridians are imbeciles. Just a few weeks ago the required number of signatures was collected to put the issue of gay marriage on the ballot. This would amend our state's constitution to legally ban same-sex marriages.

This is a non-issue for most Florida voters, that is, except conservatives who need some reason to mobilize and get to the polls in November. The timing couldn't have been better for conservative Republicans, who are freaked out about losing the state's 27 electoral votes to the Democrats. So they create a red herring, a fake issue, a gay boogey-man to drive their people to the voting booth -- and hopefully get them to pull the Republican lever.

I'm sorry. There is no reason to end domestic partner benefits for gays and non-gays. There is also no reason to discourage future business from relocating to Florida, and this constitutional amendment would do just that. Finally, there is no reason to define marriage in our state constitution, because the definition already exists in state law.

The only reason the hard-core, right wing conservatives are stumping for this is to help their numbers at the polls in the fall. It deflects attention from the real issues. If you find gay marriage uncomfortable, here's my suggestion: Mind your own business.

The opinions expressed by Jim Philips are solely his own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the ownership or management of WESH.

[npmommie]

We have yet another chance in November to prove to the nation that Floridians are imbeciles. Just a few weeks ago the required number of signatures was collected to put the issue of gay marriage on the ballot. This would amend our state's constitution to legally ban same-sex marriages.

This is a non-issue for most Florida voters, that is, except conservatives who need some reason to mobilize and get to the polls in November. The timing couldn't have been better for conservative Republicans, who are freaked out about losing the state's 27 electoral votes to the Democrats. So they create a red herring, a fake issue, a gay boogey-man to drive their people to the voting booth -- and hopefully get them to pull the Republican lever.

I'm sorry. There is no reason to end domestic partner benefits for gays and non-gays. There is also no reason to discourage future business from relocating to Florida, and this constitutional amendment would do just that. Finally, there is no reason to define marriage in our state constitution, because the definition already exists in state law.

The only reason the hard-core, right wing conservatives are stumping for this is to help their numbers at the polls in the fall. It deflects attention from the real issues. If you find gay marriage uncomfortable, here's my suggestion: Mind your own business.

The opinions expressed by Jim Philips are solely his own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the ownership or management of WESH.

Exactly!!! if only society could learn to mind their own business.

[inkkognito]

Here is an interesting link:

http://knowthyneighbor.org/florida/

It has a database of everyone who signed the petition to get the amendment on the ballot. I was shocked and appalled to discover that my next door neighbors signed!!! Looks like I have lots of lobbying to do...sigh.

[OrlandoMike]

6 on my street alone, and I have a short street!:scared1:

Guess I'd better get busy!

[rpmdfw]

6 on my street alone, and I have a short street!:scared1:

Guess I'd better get busy!

12 on the three block street we live on! :eek:

Interestingly, though. None on our block. I guess we need to start walking the dog through the WHOLE neighboorhood and saying hello to more people.

[OrlandoMike]

Start typing in names of "friends" if you really want a shock!

[Timon-n-Pumbaa Fan]

Here is an interesting link:

http://knowthyneighbor.org/florida/

It has a database of everyone who signed the petition to get the amendment on the ballot. I was shocked and appalled to discover that my next door neighbors signed!!! Looks like I have lots of lobbying to do...sigh.

Can we at least hope that some of the people that wanted this to be put to a vote did so in hopes that the voters would do the right thing?

[rpmdfw]

Start typing in names of "friends" if you really want a shock!

Oh, I started doing that as soon as I finished the six street names in our development.

So far the only name that has come up on the list is a co-worker that I really don't like.

I've been trying to come up with an excuse to not invite him to our "Big Fat Gay Disney Wedding" while still inviting the rest of my co-workers. So glad he made it so easy for me. :rolleyes1

[OrlandoMike]

Oh, I started doing that as soon as I finished the six street names in our development.

So far the only name that has come up on the list is a co-worker that I really don't like.

I've been trying to come up with an excuse to not invite him to our "Big Fat Gay Disney Wedding" while still inviting the rest of my co-workers. So glad he made it so easy for me. :rolleyes1

So that means you have room for one more huh? Whats for dinner? Where you registered? I love big fat gay greek weddings!:cool1:

[rpmdfw]

So that means you have room for one more huh? Whats for dinner? Where you registered? I love big fat gay greek weddings!:cool1:

Sorry, not greek. GEEK, maybe, but not greek. :lmao:

[OrlandoMike]

Sorry, not greek. GEEK, maybe, but not greek. :lmao:

Sigh......

I was so looking forward to smashing Cinderella's slipper with my foot!:cool1:

[rpmdfw]

Sigh......

I was so looking forward to smashing Cinderella's slipper with my foot!:cool1:

By wearing them? :eek:

[npmommie]

OMG!!! I typed in all our relatives in FL........ONE SIGNED IT........MY imbecile BIL ( hubbys brother) signed that petition!!!!!!!!!!! he lives in new port richey, my other bil lives in orlando.
I can't believe he signed that, I could tell you all some stories about him, he is such a hypocrite.
when I first moved to FL with my hubby when he was USCG, ( long time ago) I first met this brother of his on clearwater beach, my FIL ( their dad) told me how this brother had an affair and both his wife and girlfriend were preg at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!
the BIL who signed this petition, he is now married to the one he had the affair with back then, he left the wife. the kids are college age now, this was awhile ago.
but recently my BIL that lives in orlando told me the petition signing imbecile is suspected of having another affair right now!!!!!!!!!!!! He takes off on his Harley til all hours of the night!
oh I could go on and on, his life story is like a soap opera.
he is such a nit wit, i can't wait til i talk to him again.:mad:
oh and he is such a know it all type, he doesn't like to talk much to me cuz I call him on his BS all the time!

[Tigger&Belle]

I typed in my FL relatives and thankfully didn't find them on the list.

[ConcKahuna]

Since they are publicly posted with no privacy policy, we should do a mass mailing. I'm sure HRC could provide some literature.

[ConcKahuna]

And look, the people who live in the house I used to live in down in Lake Wales signed it...

[OrlandoMike]

I have a relative who's name is on the list, that quite frankly I cant believe signed it. There are two options....

1. The elderly relative was tricked into signing it, not knowing what it really was.

2. His name was just hijacked by this group.

Quite disturbing to say the least. I'm in the process of finding out exactly what happened, but if I smell any type of fraud you may want to keep an eye on the local media, I will be making phone calls!

[rpmdfw]

I have a relative who's name is on the list, that quite frankly I cant believe signed it. There are two options....

1. The elderly relative was tricked into signing it, not knowing what it really was.

2. His name was just hijacked by this group.

Quite disturbing to say the least. I'm in the process of finding out exactly what happened, but if I smell any type of fraud you may want to keep an eye on the local media, I will be making phone calls!

Go get 'em, Mike!

[ConcKahuna]

I have a relative who's name is on the list, that quite frankly I cant believe signed it. There are two options....

1. The elderly relative was tricked into signing it, not knowing what it really was.

2. His name was just hijacked by this group.

Quite disturbing to say the least. I'm in the process of finding out exactly what happened, but if I smell any type of fraud you may want to keep an eye on the local media, I will be making phone calls!

One of my coworkers who's name is on there is similar. He's a bit older, but him and his wife are very good friends with a gay gentleman.

[PghLybrt]

Took a look and my grandma is not on it!!! It would shock me if she was she had 2 gay sons out of 3 and 1 gay grandchild out of 2!

[OrlandoMike]

Just as I suspected, my relitive who's name is on the list DID NOT SIGN THE PETITION!

I'm writing HRC tonight, and will start with the local news in the morning!

[npmommie]

Just as I suspected, my relitive who's name is on the list DID NOT SIGN THE PETITION!

I'm writing HRC tonight, and will start with the local news in the morning!
wow!!
let us know what comes of this,

[NHdisneylover]

Just as I suspected, my relitive who's name is on the list DID NOT SIGN THE PETITION!

I'm writing HRC tonight, and will start with the local news in the morning!

Good thing you checked up on this. I hope others also follow up if they see someone they are surprised by on the list.

[TuckandStuiesMom]

Jeez Louise!!! Sounds like the wing-nuts are getting desperate.

They are trying to resurrect the same hoo-ha this election year, here as well.

[ConcKahuna]

Just as I suspected, my relitive who's name is on the list DID NOT SIGN THE PETITION!

I'm writing HRC tonight, and will start with the local news in the morning!

I spoke with the one co-worker myself this morning. He and his wife are republican, but they are very gay-friendly. Neither of them signed the petition and their names are on it. I gave them the info for the Supervisor of Elections for Seminole county.

[OrlandoMike]

So the plot get thicker!

[inkkognito]

If anybody else sees any bogus signatures, please PM me with your email address. There is a media outlet that is potentially interested, so the more phony signatures that can be identified, the better!

[DVC~OKW~96]

If it can be substantiated that enough of the signatures are bogus, can that remove the Amendment from the ballot as there are a required number of signatures to take an action of that nature?

Will anyone listen? This is really awful. Pigs, the lot of them.

[inkkognito]

ConcKahuna and OrlandoMike, you should have emails from the reporter. Cross your fingers everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[npmommie]

Ok maybe I won't assume my BIL is an imbecile. I will call him tomorrow to see if he really did sign.
His name and address were in the paper a few months back for an unrelated story. It's entirely possible the wingnuts picked it up like that I guess. I will call tomorrow and report back.

[ConcKahuna]

ConcKahuna and OrlandoMike, you should have emails from the reporter. Cross your fingers everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm at work, but I passed the info on to the person I work with. It seems his wife is calling around everyone they know, and she is yelling at all of them trying to figure out how her name got on it.

Hopefully they give said reporter (who's one of the cutest on TV! :rotfl2: ) a call :)

[Tigger&Belle]

Amazing that they would have bogus signatures. :sad2:

[OrlandoMike]

If you live in Florida, or have friends who live in Florida, PLEASE go over the list for bogus names.

The names that seem to have been hijacked seem to be elderly people that are registered Republican. Simply call them and politly ask them if the signed the petition, if not, get in touch with me. We are currently working on a local news story on this!

Thanks!

Mike

[DVC~OKW~96]

I wonder if it would be worth it to run all the names in Florida, split the results among anyone who cared to help, and try to call as many as possible to politely ask (or perhaps verify?) that they had actually signed?

Might be a good project? :scratchin

[rpmdfw]

If you live in Florida, or have friends who live in Florida, PLEASE go over the list for bogus names.

The names that seem to have been hijacked seem to be elderly people that are registered Republican. Simply call them and politly ask them if the signed the petition, if not, get in touch with me. We are currently working on a local news story on this!

Thanks!

Mike

Mike, I'm moderator for a small internet group of locals that gets together socially. I've asked all of them to visit that website as well, and let me know if they can help us find any other bogus signatures. I'll let you know what I find.

[PghLybrt]

Mike, I'm moderator for a small internet group of locals that gets together socially. I've asked all of them to visit that website as well, and let me know if they can help us find any other bogus signatures. I'll let you know what I find.

You know that is a good idea! I didn't even think to post this on other boards I am on. Thanks for the idea!

[rpmdfw]

Mike, I'm moderator for a small internet group of locals that gets together socially. I've asked all of them to visit that website as well, and let me know if they can help us find any other bogus signatures. I'll let you know what I find.

The first response I got back from my group made me laugh:

"Wow, didn't anyone ever tell those religious whack-jobs anything about the whole "Thou Shalt Not Lie" thing?"

:rotfl2:

[NHdisneylover]

Thanks Mike coordianting getting this out to the media.
I really do not know anyone in Florida, but I have sent the link along to people I know who do have friends/family down there. Another good source would be if anyone has any connections to UU churches in Florida. I think their congregations would be willing to look through the lists and speak with anyone whose name may be illegally being used. So please, if you are a Flordia UU, or you know one send this their way:)

[Miss Jasmine]

Didn't the Amendment originally not make it due to some signature issues? And then in the last hours they got enough certified? I am trying to recall...

[OrlandoMike]

Didn't the Amendment originally not make it due to some signature issues? And then in the last hours they got enough certified? I am trying to recall...

You are correct.

[randyjsprice]

The issue of gay marriage has now reached Florida and will be voted upon as Amendment 2 in the November 2008 election. It’s inaccurately being referred to as the Gay Marriage Amendment. I can only assume it’s being referred to in this manner in order to camouflage its true intent. If this amendment passes with 60% of voter support it will affect not only gay domestic partners but heterosexual domestic partnerships as well. The verbiage of the amendment states:

"Inasmuch as a marriage is the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife, no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized."

The banner for the proposed amendment is being waved by an organization called Florida For Marriage (www Florida4marriage org). The organization was founded by John Stemberger a lawyer whose office is located in Orlando. Stemberger’s organization “had raised more than $444,000 by the end of December, the latest report available. The main donors are the Republican Party of Florida ($300,000) and Florida Catholic Conference ($45,500). Hundreds of ordinary people gave between $1 and $50” as printed in the St. Petersburg Times.

Stemberger is also associated with Colorado based Focus on the Family led by Dr. James Dobson who created a separate entity called Focus on the Family Action. The following is a clip from their website (www focusaction org):

“Focus on the Family Action is a new cultural action organization that is completely separate from Focus on the Family, legally. It has been created by separating out of Focus on the Family those activities which constitute lobbying under the IRS code so that they can be expanded in scope. It will provide a platform for informing, inspiring and rallying those who care deeply about the family to greater involvement in the moral, cultural and political issues that threaten our nation.

Focus on the Family Action will give me and my team much greater freedom to take our views to the public square, where the great debate over culture, rights, freedom and values is taking place, and allow me to ask people to take specific actions such as calling senators and congressmen to pass important, family-friendly legislation. I can be more effective in fighting for the Marriage Protection Amendment and against judicial tyranny. To date, we are hearing from members of Congress that too many Christians have been no-shows. But by working together we can change that. We can tackle head-on the most troubling problems facing our great nation and begin changing its direction before it is too late.”

Stemberger was able to garner the required number of signatures at the very last minute to meet the 1 Feb 08 deadline when he had been almost 22,000 signatures short in December 2007 according to the St. Petersburg Times.

The rhetoric being used by this organization is nothing new. They’re spewing the slogan, “Marriage should be just between one man and one woman.” Their attack is focusing on gay marriage and civil unions but, even if the amendment were to fail it wouldn’t make gay marriage possible because of state law that prevents it. However, if the amendment does pass it would mean that ALL unmarried couples claiming to be domestic partners whether gay or heterosexual will be affected. These couples would no longer be able to be covered by an Employer’s domestic partnership health benefits or have hospital visitation because the amendment would dissolve any existing domestic partnership registry.

To fight Florida For Marriage and the proposed amendment to the state constitution two groups have formed: Florida Red and Blue and Fairness For All Families. Although the goal of each organization is to defeat the amendment, their motivations are different. Florida Red and Blue consists of bipartisan members who represent both the Republican and Democratic parties. They do not support members of the gay community in their fight for equality. However, since they are fighting for domestic partnership rights they feel they are including the gay community.

The organization I support is called Fairness For All Families (FFAF). The name is accurate for whom they represent. FFAF not only supports domestic partnerships for both the gay and heterosexual communities but it also supports gay families in their fight for equality. I support FFAF because they do not discriminate in their treatment of families even in ideology.

For those individuals who, like me, are infuriated over the proposed amendment, which is virtually writing discrimination and hatred into the Florida state constitution, the way to fight is through education of the public at large. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who will not educate themselves on the proposal and will vote based soley on the title the proposal is given. At least when a person has all the facts then an informed decision can be made when the time comes to vote.

To educate the public requires funding that can only come by donors. While I hate the constant and endless barrage of individuals or groups seeking donations, in regards to this issue my domestic partner and I are contributors. Regardless of which organization one wants to support the end goal is the same: defeating the amendment. Whether the donation comes from a Florida resident or not all donations are gratefully welcomed. Please go to the following websites to learn more about the amendment and hear real testimonies via YouTube.com of those who can and will be affected by the amendment and please make your donations:

www fairnessforALLfamilies org

www floridaredandblue com

Finally, please share this information with as many friends and family members as possible. Only through awareness can Floridians defeat this amendment. Please don’t just accept my words. Research this subject for yourselves. I’ve provided the links that will educate on the organizations both for/against the issue. By completing a Google search these websites will post. Please spread the word.

[randyjsprice]

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the Florida amendment 2 proposal. Somewhere on the disboard I have a posting with tons of information. It's called Florida Fairness Vote 2008. Please check it out.

[OrlandoMike]

Hope you dont mind, I merged the two posts.

Thank you very much for the info!:thumbsup2

[Miss Jasmine]

Thank you for the information. I will be visiting the websites. :)

[wallyb]

From an outsider looking in at some of the laws and amendments that you guys have in Florida -
It make me wonder :eek: what goes on down there.

But I'm in MA - so I bet you wonder :scared: about us too.

[OrlandoMike]

But I'm in MA - so I bet you wonder :scared: about us too.


We can buy beer on sundays though! :thumbsup2

[wallyb]

We can buy beer on sundays though! :thumbsup2
Don't drink beer - Don't care!;)
I'll just sip my Patron.

[Saxton]

I'll just sip my Patron.

Ohh, Patron?! Wally likes the good stuff!

[Miss Jasmine]

Don't drink beer - Don't care!;)
I'll just sip my Patron.

You can buy liquor as well (sometimes not until after 1:00 in some locations). ;)

[DVC~OKW~96]

Unless you live in Winter Garden, of course. :teeth: No beer buying on Sundays here. :( No wine neither. No liquor, too. LOL.

[rpmdfw]

Unless you live in Winter Garden, of course. :teeth: No beer buying on Sundays here. :( No wine neither. No liquor, too. LOL.

Thankfully, it's not that far a drive over to Ocoee, "The Center of Good Living".

"Good Living" must be due to being able to pick up beer and wine on Sundays . . .:woohoo:

[wallyb]

Beer and wine on Sundays leads to...
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f241/wallyb3/thdancing.gif
men dancing together!
And god knows what else.

[zulemara]

The amendment is identical to the one that got passed in WI and it got passed for the same reason, they were playing up the gay side of it when it effects EVERYBODY not just gay people. They have obviously learned from the states who have passed this crap and are using the same marketing tactics

[randyjsprice]

Please keep my earlier posting alive. Florida is still 7 1/2 months from this amendment reaching the polls. Copy and paste my article into emails and send it to everyone in Florida. It will have the same affect as that shampoo commercial from the early 80's that said "you tell 2 people and they'll tell 2 people, and so on, and so on."

Please help defeat this amendment.

[fey_spirit]

Why is it that all these folks so desperate to protect major don't support bills to make divorce harder, and penalize those who commit adultery?
Seems to me that the straight population is a much bigger threat to the sanctity of marriage at this point then anything me and the wife are.


WI passed the same thing last year and it sucks...horribly. My bf and I want to move to FL in a year or two and this will not make him happy.

Good luck to all of you. It will be a hard ugly battle against ignorance, bigotry, and people who will call for the "defense of the institution of marriage"

Every single open minded individual needs to vote. I know Orlando will take it down, but I worry about other parts of the state. Reach out to everyone!

[gppnj]

[COLOR="Red"]A few hours ago, the Florida Department of Elections officially certified the deceptive "marriage protection amendment" to be on the November ballot.

To this day, I've never heard anyone who is trying to ban same-sex marriage offer any kind of explanation about how same-sex marriage threatens traditional marriage. It's laughable. They know that same-sex marriage doesn't really threaten traditional marriage, but they also know that it's an easy way to lure uninformed people to their side.

[wallyb]

Seems to me that the straight population is a much bigger threat to the sanctity of marriage at this point then anything me and the wife are.

:worship: :worship: :worship: The Sanctity of Marriage:rolleyes1 :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1
It so is not. Read the news. Anyone see the New York Post today?

[parrothead928]

Yup, and now most FL counties have to cut their education budgets by $500,000 to $1 million annually! Where did people think the money was going to come from for Amendment 1??? :confused3

Escambia County School district is actually have to cut 14 million, Santa Rosa is looking to cut almost 4 million and Okaloosa is looking to cut $5 million. With Amendment 1 being approved, the counties are having to cut almost $500 million dollars across the state. Yet, these same lawmakers are wanting to approve a $491 million expenditure for a commuter rail system in Orlando!!! It think our governor is a wolf in sheep's clothing. :headache: I do not see him protesting these school cuts at all!!!! :mad:

[DVC~OKW~96]

The cuts are making a mess of the school system and services to the elderly. More elder Floridians are going to die in their home without services as a result of these cuts, than at any other time.

It's a huge mess all around. :sad1:

The two groups who can least afford to be made to suffer will pay the highest price; our children and our senior citizens.

[rpmdfw]

The two groups who can least afford to be made to suffer will pay the highest price; our children and our senior citizens.

The ultimate expression of self-entitlement is to disregard our past and our future and to focus on instant gratification. What does that say about us as Floridians? As a society?

And what does it say about what will happen next? :scared1: :eek: :mad: :sad2: :guilty: :sad1: :scared:

[TexasMinnie82]

I don't live in Florida and I am straight, but I want to wish good luck to all who live in Florida. I really hope the amendment does not pass!!!!

It really amazes me how ignorant some people are!!!!

[DVC~OKW~96]

One of the Medicaid cuts has been scaled back, thank heaven. The Medicaid payments for Hospice were on the chopping block. Fortunately, the Senate was sensible enough to not make that cut.

[inkkognito]

A foreshadowing of things to come in FL if Amendment 2 passes:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/NEWS06/80507064

My mind is still boggled that this is the United States, in the year 2008, and yet laws are being passed that literally deprive a specific group of people of their human rights.

[smartestnumber5]

A foreshadowing of things to come in FL if Amendment 2 passes:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/NEWS06/80507064

My mind is still boggled that this is the United States, in the year 2008, and yet laws are being passed that literally deprive a specific group of people of their human rights.

Yep. :sad2: We live in MI. It was clear from day 1 when the MI amendment was brought up that it was going to affect health insurance and the people and organizations supporting it (including the Catholic Diocese of Detroit which donated $500,000 and sent out videos in favor of the amendment) lied through their teeth denying that it would.

Up until this January GF was receiving "domestic partner" benefits from my university. Since then, she has been receiving "other qualified adult" benefits which requires numerous things that are not associated with marriage (joint residence, joint checking account or joint title to a vehicle, and being each other's will/IRA beneficiaries). Luckily my university was willing to go through the trouble to coming up with these benefits. I am worried though that these creative ways of giving partner benefits will be the next thing under attack.

I really love the town I live in and I like my university a lot. But days like this I can't wait to get out of this state (which luckily will be happening in just about 2 years when I finish my PhD).

[OrlandoMike]

Just moments ago in an 8-4 vote, the Miami-Dade County Commission passed the Domestic Partners and Family Health Coverage Ordinance. With today's passage, Miami-Dade becomes the 4th and largest county in Florida and the 22nd municipality to provide Domestic Partner benefits to employees and residents.

This is a huge victory and these protections will help thousands of families to care for one another. Today we are one giant step closer to providing all Florida families access to health care, hospital visitation, and the many other vital protections all our families need and deserve.

Nearly 100 organizations and supporters filled the commission chambers for today's final vote and you, our Equality Florida members, sent 7,700 emails to the commissioners to show your support. A last minute push by the far right to block or defer the ordinance was soundly rejected.

Even as we celebrate today's decision, we must go to work to protect these hard-won benefits by defeating Amendment #2 on the November 4th ballot.

[jamieandben]

:banana: :yay: :dance3: :cheer2: :woohoo:

[TexasMinnie82]

:dancer:

[TuckandStuiesMom]

Great News!

[2moms]

:woohoo: :woohoo: :dance3: :woohoo: :woohoo: