Pleasure Island out, shopping in [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

01-14-2008, 07:52 PM

More than a year ago a building on PI that used to hold a fast food restaurant and a number of shops closed and was completely renovated. To date it sits empty. Pleasure Island Jazz Company, a music venue included in the PI ticket, was closed and serious renovated to become Raglan Road which is open to all without a PI ticket and appears to be highly successful. Now RRBC is closing and will apparently be torn down. I'm told it has a leaky roof that would cost more than $1M to repair. A surf store just opened where a recording studio used to be. The island itself is open to all pedestrians.

So yes, the whole concept of what used to be an adult island for club-hopping is quickly disappearing and the trend seems to be to put in things that can more more money. It seems hard to believe that stores can make more money than places that sell liquor, but perhaps that is the case.

BobK/Orlando

ChrisFL

01-14-2008, 08:03 PM

Well I think a lot of PI traffic was locals and I know a lot of them are going to Citywalk now instead.

I'mNoPrince

01-14-2008, 09:20 PM

I wonder if it was more of a safety issue. Then you have they can close down DTD earlier and cut the Bus staff loose as well. We all know they are stressed to the limits now.

Maybe they thought they could just start slow and still go in either direction and they have made their decision as things progress.

Uncleromulus

01-15-2008, 04:43 AM

I think it's great--as long as some new restaurants are in the mix. Citywalk is welcome to the nightlife!!

stepnut

01-21-2008, 08:07 AM

I'm not a nightclub person, so the appeal of PI is slim for me. However, I wonder if I'm not in the minority, for other reasons. What are the demographics of people who come to WDW? Mostly families, with grade school children. It costs a pretty penny to make the trip, and I would imagine few parents actually plan an expensive babysitter in the budget to allow them a night of dancing and partying in an all-adult PI setting.

However, most people typically DO budget for souveniers, so I can see how a retail spot would not only get the traffic, but the cash flow as well. I know for me personally, I adore shopping, and even if I don't budget a big amount for souvies, the temptation to spend is HUGE to me. :)

paulh

01-21-2008, 12:06 PM

it will just end up as food and shopping,Citywalk has a better mix at moment
Paulh

TheRustyScupper

01-21-2008, 01:56 PM

. . . I wonder if it was more of a safety issue . . .

1) We have refused to go to PI since they halted the general admission.
2) There are too many gangs of teens and others.
3) It is the ONLY place at WDW the wife does not feel safe.
4) She will walk New York City streets by herself, but not PI at night!
5) It doesn't help that the clubs were not well thought-out.
6) They were also not well designed.
7) When they heard about City Walk, they rushed into building PI.

NOTE: WDW publicly admits they were thinking about the Studios and PI for years, but rushed into action when Universal was announced. They wanted to beat Universal to the opening in the worst way. And that is how they built MGM - in the worst way.

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

01-21-2008, 05:18 PM

1) We have refused to go to PI since they halted the general admission.
2) There are too many gangs of teens and others.
3) It is the ONLY place at WDW the wife does not feel safe.
4) She will walk New York City streets by herself, but not PI at night!
5) It doesn't help that the clubs were not well thought-out.
6) They were also not well designed.

If you've stopped going, how do you know there are too many gangs of teens and others? This is completely false. And after midnight no teens are allowed unless their with an adult.

And your wife will walk the streets of NYC at night but not PI? OMG.

The clubs are not well thought-out or designed? Compared to what? As far as I know there are only 3 revolving dance floors in the world and this one is the largest. Newcomers are struck in awe when they first see it. 8TRAX & BET are very cleverly designed. Adventurers Club has to be unique in the world. What is clever about anything at Citywalk?

Sorry, I've agreed with many of your comments over time but you're increasingly coming across as either a disgruntled Disney employee or ex-employee.

BobK/Orlando

Luv2Roam

01-21-2008, 05:30 PM

We go to DTD and PI (for the comedy clubs) often. Never had any safety issues or concerns. Not to say something cannot happen. But it could happen at McD's on the corner here in town just as readily.
I think not having hardly any stores on PI for numerous months is a greatly missed opportunity. The place is more of a ghost town now than anything. Just a shell of its former self now there is no live stage, stores, or even a place for a quick bite. :rolleyes: With no comedy clubs, there certainly would be no reason to go to PI.

What are we doing?

01-21-2008, 08:05 PM

I'm not a nightclub person, so the appeal of PI is slim for me. However, I wonder if I'm not in the minority, for other reasons. What are the demographics of people who come to WDW? Mostly families, with grade school children. It costs a pretty penny to make the trip, and I would imagine few parents actually plan an expensive babysitter in the budget to allow them a night of dancing and partying in an all-adult PI setting.

Not to mention that the babysitter would be a stranger. :scared1:

Hubby and I enjoyed the Adventurer's Club and would like to go back, but it's not worth the ticket or the babysitter.

jcarter29

01-21-2008, 08:58 PM

PI was a big time draw for Disney workers and College Program folks when I was in the CP (1995) but this was a million years ago in terms of other things available in the greater Orlando area. I can say I have been there multiple times since then (although at 32 and now a mother of 2 I simply feel too old) and I have never once felt unsafe. We always had a great time and never a single problem. That said, where there is alcohol, there are bound to be some problems. I think Disney needs to think a little more outside of the box with PI and do something new and different. I don't think the clubs would be missed by the actual Disney visitors. I would be all for some new, decent dining options...I hate having to go all the way to Universal for Emerils every time. With the new Harry Potter park, new Aquatica park, etc. Disney has some prime space with PI that they need to use in a better way. Maybe go completely against the grain of all of these other new things and do something toddler oriented???

Just my rambling thoughts...
Kim

Disney Doll

01-24-2008, 07:32 PM

[QUOTE=TheRustyScupper;22702884]1) We have refused to go to PI since they halted the general admission.
2) There are too many gangs of teens and others.
3) It is the ONLY place at WDW the wife does not feel safe.
4) She will walk New York City streets by herself, but not PI at night!
5) It doesn't help that the clubs were not well thought-out.
6) They were also not well designed.
7) When they heard about City Walk, they rushed into building PI.

I agree with pretty much all of the above. I wouldn't say I don't feel safe there...the last time I was there, there were gangs of obnoxious teens and 20-somethings staggering around making ***** of themselves.

The new charges for the Adventurers and Comedy clubs are outrageous.

Plus, they have some beautiful waterfront property there that is hidden because of the clubs. Think of some lovely glass-walled restaurants on the water side and some nice shops on the parking lot side. Much better, IMHO.

Peter Pirate 2

01-24-2008, 08:32 PM

1) We have refused to go to PI since they halted the general admission.
2) There are too many gangs of teens and others.
3) It is the ONLY place at WDW the wife does not feel safe.
4) She will walk New York City streets by herself, but not PI at night!
5) It doesn't help that the clubs were not well thought-out.
6) They were also not well designed.
7) When they heard about City Walk, they rushed into building PI.

NOTE: WDW publicly admits they were thinking about the Studios and PI for years, but rushed into action when Universal was announced. They wanted to beat Universal to the opening in the worst way. And that is how they built MGM - in the worst way.

Totally agree Scupper and while it's possible for folks to NOT see all of this I tend to think it has more to do with their vacation mode, Disney is idyllic, Disney is perfect attitude more than reality. Also we know some people will apologize for Dinorama or Dining gentrification so it's no wonder these issues come under attack as well.

Oh, as for "what is clever at Citywalk?" ... Well, I don't know about clever, but at least it works.
pirate:

Disneybag

01-25-2008, 08:00 AM

The new charges for the Adventurers and Comedy clubs are outrageous.

It IS a rip for Joe Tourist who comes and only wants to see the comedy shows. You're now forced to buy the multi-club ticket. The $10 One Club ticket is only for the dance clubs. My guess is that the suits know you could spend the entire evening in AC or CW. I'm sure a ton of people buy the one club ticket, find that they'd rather be in another dance club and then upgrade. I'd love to see a number for how often that happens. It's not so bad if you purchase an annual pass. I can't tell you how many people I've had walk up to me in line and inquire about the comedy clubs. When I tell them how the pricing works, they walk away saying that it's a rip. I can't blame them. It would REALLY boost attendance if they added those to the One Club ticket. Generally, your older tourists aren't going to want to spend time in BET, Motion, etc. Why force them to pay for those clubs when they obviously are only going to visit AC or CW?

If CW goes, I'll have no reason to visit PI again. It'll be a sad, sad day.:sick:

Jason71

01-25-2008, 08:34 AM

I'm not a nightclub person, so the appeal of PI is slim for me. However, I wonder if I'm not in the minority, for other reasons. What are the demographics of people who come to WDW? Mostly families, with grade school children.

I think you may be underestimating the number of convention-goers, parents with older kids, and parents willing to pay a sitter (or who have Grandma or someone along), to say nothing of locals. The whole reason PI was built in the first place is that Church Street Station was the #2 attraction in Florida back in the 80s. And to beat a dead horse from another thread, PI itself used to get huge crowds back when it was a truly unique place. It was a destination not only for tourists but central FL residents from Daytona to Tampa looking for a fun night out. If they brought back the live bands, and fireworks, and extensive club theming, I believe the guests would return.

And how many stores filled with plush animals and pins can really survive in such a limited area?

It IS a rip for Joe Tourist who comes and only wants to see the comedy shows. You're now forced to buy the multi-club ticket. The $10 One Club ticket is only for the dance clubs. My guess is that the suits know you could spend the entire evening in AC or CW.

Exactly! Neither comedy club has that much capacity. For example, the AC Library holds 100 people. Sell more than 100 single-club AC tickets--or probably a lot fewer, given the number of Annual Passholders--and someone's going to complain that they spent $10 but couldn't see the Balderdash Cup.

Neither comedy club was designed as a stand-alone attraction. Guests were expected to drop in, see a show or two, then wander out again to catch a set by one of the bands or do a little dancing or have dinner at the (long-defunct) Fireworks Factory. PI was meant to be an immersive, total experience, not just a hodge-podge of clubs.

BTW, other than Bob Marley's (which always seems to have a line), I don't know that the clubs, as opposed to the restaurants, at CityWalk are doing much better than PI. Red Coconut is on its third incarnation, Pat O'Briens has had its thunder stolen by the vastly superior Howl at the Moon, CityJazz has been reduced to karaoke and C-list comedians, and Margaritaville always feels like more of a "restaurant" than a "club" even when the band is playing. I admit I get over there less than PI, but it doesn't seem like CW is going gangbusters, either.

sbell111

01-25-2008, 10:08 AM

It IS a rip for Joe Tourist who comes and only wants to see the comedy shows. You're now forced to buy the multi-club ticket. The $10 One Club ticket is only for the dance clubs. My guess is that the suits know you could spend the entire evening in AC or CW. I'm sure a ton of people buy the one club ticket, find that they'd rather be in another dance club and then upgrade. I'd love to see a number for how often that happens. It's not so bad if you purchase an annual pass. I can't tell you how many people I've had walk up to me in line and inquire about the comedy clubs. When I tell them how the pricing works, they walk away saying that it's a rip. I can't blame them. It would REALLY boost attendance if they added those to the One Club ticket. Generally, your older tourists aren't going to want to spend time in BET, Motion, etc. Why force them to pay for those clubs when they obviously are only going to visit AC or CW?

If CW goes, I'll have no reason to visit PI again. It'll be a sad, sad day.:sick:I'm not sure that I agree. As I recall, you didn't used to have an option for a 'one club' ticket. You used to show up and not be allowed to enter the 'island' unless you paid something like $20. Once you paid, you'd enter and go to whatever clubs you wanted. For us, that pretty much meant the comedy club'.

The only change is that you can now enter the island without paying admission and you can go to one (1) of the dance clubs for only $10. The cost for us to go to the comedy club (and adventurer's) has only increased a couple dollars.

eandt

01-26-2008, 04:39 PM

We have visited PI on virtually every trip to WDW in the past 14 years. We have seen the quality of experience go down over the years but we still enjoy our time there. We have not had any issues with unruly kids or adults ever. The cost is not all that bad especially if you visit more than once while on your trip as you can pay an additional five bucks for five additional nights when you buy the initial ticket (or use your "pluses" on your resort tickets. They have taken away the live outside bands and the fireworks though which really made for a unique experience. The one thing we think that Disney needs to do is make a location where 15-17 yr olds can hang out much like they do on the cruise ships. A dance club for that age group at PI would be a welcome addition. Our 17yr old doesn't want to come back to WDW because there is nothing for him and his friends to do after dark (we normally travel in the fall/winter when the parks close by 8 or 9). We missed coming down last year but plan to travel next fall, hopefully PI is still around.

Disneydd2

01-27-2008, 11:18 PM

i agree with eandt. a fun/safe place for the teens to hang out is an excellent idea. my DS is only 6, but he's going to get older, and we're going to continue to go to Disney World. i would hate it if he didn't want to go to the most magical place in the world because he thought there's nothing to do. doesn't Disney Quest stay open later?

Jason71

01-28-2008, 12:13 PM

i agree with eandt. a fun/safe place for the teens to hang out is an excellent idea.

I still don't know why WDW doesn't do this with Atlantic Dance Hall, at the Boardwalk. As an adults-only nightspot, the place is always dead, but would seem to me the perfect venue for a "teen" club far enough removed from PI to avoid confusion.

eandt

01-28-2008, 01:52 PM

Yes I believe DisneyQuest does stay open later but really if you are over about 13-14 you can only spend so much time playing videos........especially when you are surrounded by younger kids and parents. The older kids need a place where they can go listen to music hang out and get a bite to eat etc without having to dodge little ones or have their parents watching their every move. Again they do it on the cruise ship with their teen night club, really surprised they haven't done it at WDW..........Atlantic Dance Hall would be a good place for one as you are right it is always dead, could never understand that though, its a very nice place to hang out. Still would like to see one at PI also so that the parents and kids could go together, split up to attend their "club" and then return together. Come on Disney do something for the older kids so that we can come back again LOL!!!

Uncleromulus

01-29-2008, 04:49 AM

Guys: PLEASE don't wish a "teen club" for the Boardwalk!!!! For starters, where would they all park?? Hordes of local teens swarming the Boardwalk???

stepnut

01-31-2008, 05:52 PM

A "teen club" would be a disaster, IMHO. Like spring break, high school version.

eandt

02-01-2008, 04:06 PM

LOL Well you guys must not have teen kids...........when you do and THEY stop wanting to come to Disney because there is nothing to do then you will see where a place for them to hang out with others their age might be an attractive option...... Unless you like dragging around a brooding teen every day for a week..........They can only do so many rides, shows, parades and video games, they need a place to be themselves. With all the security there wouldn't be any problems and if so then it would come back on the parents. Teach them right and they will act right. I have seen my share of adults acting like idiots too, it runs the gamut. If you don't give kids things to do that they like then that is what leads to trouble, example is the POP Warner "riots".

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-01-2008, 06:09 PM

I agree with Eandt. The cruise lines quickly figured out that unless they provided a place for teens to hang out, many families were no longer coming or they were coming and the teens were going to hang around and get into trouble. Teen clubs are huge draws and the kids love them! WDW needs a place like that too although I think putting it at PI would be a mistake. But they could put it somewhere where the 'rents could drop them off and they couldn't escape until they were picked up!

BobK/Orlando

FSUDisneyGirl

02-01-2008, 07:03 PM

Disney has looked into putting in a teen club, but research showed them that age group caused the most problems, even without a club...and having to deal with a large group of unsupervised minors was a huge liability issue.

also, to someone who said that many people might buy a 1-dance club ticket on pi and then have to buy another because the club is empty...generally, if you are in the first club for under an hour, a door host will walk you to another club of your choosing.

eandt

02-01-2008, 07:17 PM

Don't really see the difference between being able to do it on the Cruise and in the resort. Make it for resort guests only and then if there is trouble call the parents to come and pick up their kid. I wouldn't have it open to the public only resort guests who have a kttw card. If they don't follow the rules then they are banned from the club. Like we said we have been to WDW/Cruises at least 14-15 times in the life of our 17yr old and the past 3-4 trips to WDW have been hard for him as far as being entertained. He loved the cruises. Again it comes back to parenting..........my son and his friends go to places with large gatherings of teens here at home all the time and never any trouble why would it be different in the most Magical Place on Earth?

Uncleromulus

02-02-2008, 06:14 AM

I'd be for that only IF the teens would be locked in the building, unable to leave and loiter (oops, I mean hang out) all over the Boardwalk.

The idea of Mommy and Daddy having a great meal at V&A while junior and 30 of his new found friends--bored with the Club after 15 minutes-- are wandering up and down the Boardwalk just dosen't appeal to me.

Hopefully FSUDisneygirl is correct and even Disney knows it would end up spelling TROUBLE.

CanadianGuy

02-02-2008, 04:35 PM

I did read something about the former Harley Davidson location being prepped for four new retail locations with a 'multi-floor venue' in the rear.. with an announcement due "soon"

Anyone heard about this?

Knox

EDIT: Found the bit mentioning this..

Nearly completed is the overhaul of a retail and venue building, along Village Lake, which has been vacant since the Orlando Harley-Davidson clothing store relocated and two other stores closed in 2006. Renovations appear to provide four retail storefronts plus side entrances for a multistory venue behind them. Disney officials would not discuss plans except to say something will be announced soon.

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-02-2008, 06:47 PM

That's from an article in the Orlando Sentinel that I posted on a thread here. No announcement yet. I'm out at PI tonight and will check further. Tonight is the last night for RRBC so I'll inquire further about the fate of that building too.

BobK/Orlando

EUROPACL

02-02-2008, 06:53 PM

my son and his friends go to places with large gatherings of teens here at home all the time and never any trouble why would it be different in the most Magical Place on Earth?

Where do you live?

stepnut

02-02-2008, 08:28 PM

Again it comes back to parenting..........my son and his friends go to places with large gatherings of teens here at home all the time and never any trouble why would it be different in the most Magical Place on Earth?

Parents are often the last to know about trouble!

Dannielle_1

02-03-2008, 12:55 AM

5) It doesn't help that the clubs were not well thought-out.
6) They were also not well designed.
7) When they heard about City Walk, they rushed into building PI.

NOTE: WDW publicly admits they were thinking about the Studios and PI for years, but rushed into action when Universal was announced. They wanted to beat Universal to the opening in the worst way. And that is how they built MGM - in the worst way.

Pleasure Island opened May 1, 1989, 10 years before City Walk opened in Orlando. (4 years before Universal City Walk in Hollywood). See Wikipedia.

Also, Pleasure Island originially opened with a great theme pulling the entire thing together. About a old shipping yard with warehouses and Merriweather Pleasure deciding to turn it into a entertainment district. Adventurers Club contains all the artifacts Merriweather collected on his journeys. Unfortunately, the story has been lost over the past 18 years and it is now a shell of what it once was and is definately no longer "connected".

I first visted "PI" when I was 15 with my family, including my younger siblings (9,6) and we all had a great time wondering the island, eating dinner at the now long gone Fireworks Factory and enjoying the live entertainment outside as well as seeing some of the shows at CW and AC. We actually went several times over the course of our vacation. I slightly remember it getting more busy later in the evening, but there weren't girls/guys out in the streets selling test tube shots in the early years. It was much more low key.

We have visited PI on virtually every trip to WDW in the past 14 years. We have seen the quality of experience go down over the years but we still enjoy our time there. We have not had any issues with unruly kids or adults ever. The cost is not all that bad especially if you visit more than once while on your trip as you can pay an additional five bucks for five additional nights when you buy the initial ticket (or use your "pluses" on your resort tickets. They have taken away the live outside bands and the fireworks though which really made for a unique experience. The one thing we think that Disney needs to do is make a location where 15-17 yr olds can hang out much like they do on the cruise ships. A dance club for that age group at PI would be a welcome addition. Our 17yr old doesn't want to come back to WDW because there is nothing for him and his friends to do after dark (we normally travel in the fall/winter when the parks close by 8 or 9). We missed coming down last year but plan to travel next fall, hopefully PI is still around.

Disney did have a teen club on Pleasure Island when it first opened in 1989. I specifically remember there being one because I was looking forward to opportunity to check it out. However it closed before my family vacationed at Disney the following summer. I don't specifically remember the reason it closed but I think it was do to behavior problems and for some reason I want to say it was something somewhat serious, but I could be completely off base there (it was 18 years ago and I was 15). I'd have to do more research, as I couldn't find anything specific on the web tonight. I'll have to look into my "personal archives."

Dannielle_1

02-03-2008, 01:09 AM

Okay, found some info on the teen club through Jim Hill. It opened when PI opened as Videopolis East and it was marketed as having 170 videoscreens. Once the "teen club" closed it became the Cage, then 8-Trax. I no longer know what it is now as I haven't been keeping track of PI lately.

Jim Hill has the press release about PI posted on this page.
http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2006/02/10/751.aspx

Okay, found out the Cage opened April 7, 1990 less then a year after PI opened. http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/wdworld/wdw1990.htm

More info on the backstory of PI and the original offerings. Look for Oct. 10, 2006, near bottom of page.
http://www.2719hyperion.com/2006_10_01_archive.html

eandt

02-03-2008, 09:03 AM

Great articles Danielle thanks for the links! To the "poster" that asked where we are from.......We are from West Central PA where we do have our share of "issues" involving both the young and older folks when it comes to where they hang out and things they do. I believe that most kids are good in general and if given the chance in a properly staffed environment they will act appropriately. I wasn't insinuating that we had NO problems in our part of the world only that my kids and the kids that they are friends with have not gotten themselves into trouble. They aren't angels but they have been taught the difference between right and wrong and that their actions have consequences good or bad. I would have no problem at all with them having a place of their own to enjoy in WDW. My kids know that if we get a phone call regarding their behavior at dinner, the park, hotel, or anywhere else including at home they will be held accountable. Would hope that anyone else traveling to WDW would do the same. All of us were in their shoes at one time.

CanadianGuy

02-03-2008, 09:58 AM

The Cage/Videopolis East.. is STILL 8-Trax.

Fun times.

Jason71

02-03-2008, 01:23 PM

Pleasure Island opened May 1, 1989, 10 years before City Walk opened in Orlando. (4 years before Universal City Walk in Hollywood). See Wikipedia.

While there is no question PI was built before CityWalk (and, in many ways, CityWalk copied PI), I do think that WDW rushed into copying CityWalk's non-gated format after it opened. While there are many reasons for the decline of PI, that is #1. CityWalk was designed with that format in mind (it's "main drag" of clubs on the 2nd level is isolated and doesn't really need to be gated), PI was not (it quickly became a stroller thoroughfare, and hang-out for teens at the nearby movie theater).

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-03-2008, 01:32 PM

Didn't learn anything new last night; never even got in to RRBC as it was too crowded. Once Disney makes an announcement, it will get posted on here. To summarize the rumors:

1. RRBC building to be torn down.
2. New shops and either a restaurant or lounge to go into the refurbished building that is across from the 8TRAX upstairs entrance.
3. Name change to what is currently BET Soundstage.
4. No changes to Motion, 8TRAX and Mannequins.

BobK/Orlando

Another Voice

02-03-2008, 01:43 PM

Pleasure Island was a direct copy of the old Church Street Station complex in downtown Orlando. Disney didn't like the idea of adults leaving property every night to drink, so just like mini-golf, they co-opted the competition.

The concept behind Pleasure Island was the many waterfront redevelopment efforts that were happening at the time. I think Balitmore's redevelopment (which Disney wanted to be a part of) was a big influence, to the point that Disney invented the mythology of their own waterfront to be redeveloped (Pleasure Island was supposed to be based on an "abandoned" developed that Disney happen to find on their property).

The overall master plan for Disney Attractions is to outsource, license and sell-off the operations at all of the parks. Corporate believes there is more money to be made from plain royalities (as at the Tokyo Disney Resort) or by own equity stakes in operating companies (like Euro Disney and Hong Kong Disneyland). Bob Iger - a life long employee of ABC Network - has even less interest or desire to run the parks as Michael Eisner did (who grew to flat out hate the places). Disney is all about the money these days, there is no creativity drive left. Theme parks are great places to be run by artists, but horrible places for small minds only interested in balance sheets.

Pleasure Island is just one of the victims of the trend. All of Downtown Disney is seen as nothing but a shopping mall and P.I. was that odd, old little bit that didn't fit the model. That's being changed. The buildings and plots will be sold off as quickly as buyers can be found - be it McDonalds or 'T-Rex Cafe' or a Hooters.

Dannielle_1

02-03-2008, 01:44 PM

While there is no question PI was built before CityWalk (and, in many ways, CityWalk copied PI), I do think that WDW rushed into copying CityWalk's non-gated format after it opened. While there are many reasons for the decline of PI, that is #1. CityWalk was designed with that format in mind (it's "main drag" of clubs on the 2nd level is isolated and doesn't really need to be gated), PI was not (it quickly became a stroller thoroughfare, and hang-out for teens at the nearby movie theater).

I won't disagree. Just wanted to let others know that the "original PI" was built/conceived long before CityWalk.

Dannielle_1

02-03-2008, 01:51 PM

Pleasure Island was a direct copy of the old Church Street Station complex in downtown Orlando. Disney didn't like the idea of adults leaving property every night to drink, so just like mini-golf, they co-opted the competition

I knew that they wanted to get the adults to stay on-site. But, I thought, at least at the beginning, Pleasure Island was a fairly family friendly place. However, there were still clubs which were definately adult oriented and only Over 21 to keep that crowd interested.

Pleasure Island is just one of the victims of the trend. All of Downtown Disney is seen as nothing but a shopping mall and P.I. was that odd, old little bit that didn't fit the model. That's being changed. The buildings and plots will be sold off as quickly as buyers can be found - be it McDonalds or 'T-Rex Cafe' or a Hooters.

And I just find that so sad. Nothing more to really say about that.

Another Voice

02-04-2008, 10:57 AM

Pleasure Island, at the beginning, was somewhat geared to adults. The complex opened up around the same time as the Dolphin/Swan-Yacht/Beach Clubs complexes were opening. Those are giant convention center were expected to get most of the their money from trade shows, meetings and other gatherings of the expense report crowd. Pleasure Island was a way to tap into their evening dollars.

Videopolis East was a concession to the "family" market, and it was quickly realized that it was a giant mistake. Keeping all those teenagers locked-up turned to be impossible and security became a nightmare - it's said more Disney security personel were injured in the first year of P.I.'s operation than had been injured than in all the years since WDW had been opened, combined.

At the beginning, anyway, Disney tried to keep the place fairly calm and toned down. It was seen as very much a "Disney" place, but for adults. It didn't cater to childern and families, but it wasn't hostile to them either.

Then the financials came in.

Pleasure Island was very expensive to build (as they said, they "baxtered the budget") and extremely expensive to operate. As a middle of the road place, it wasn't generating a lot of adult traffic because, frankly, middle age suits away from the wife and kids for a couple days don't want to party around kids and the princess pack was horrified that their precious little DD's and DS's might get a whiff of that demon rum. People also found the tickets for clubs difficult to understand (do I want a 3-club night or spring for the 5-club night?). The result, it was rumored, was the complex was losing a million a day.

This being Disney under Eisner, the entire management of the Island was fired and Eisner brought in his own person to run place - his interior designer. Yes, the guy who helped pick out Eisner's office furniture was given the task of running P.I. (to be fair, the guy had an Ivy League education and, like Eisner, from one of Manhatten's mega-weathly families - becoming a Master of Captial was this guy's fate).

He took the easiest route possible to make a bar profitable - he upped the bar sales. Before booze was kepted safely in the clubs. Now P.I. was the place were models in bikinnis and tequilla shots would roller blade up and down the street. Buckets of ice and beer were positioned to block major walkways. Jello shots were served by bodybuilders in g-strings.

Profits soared. And they stayed that way as long as WDW was attracting the convention goers, the honneymooners, the big vaction crowd and other free spending markets.

But as Disney feel into the slump in early 2000, marketing made a radical shift. Instead of trying to attract new people to WDW and the people willing to spend money on a big vacation - Disney went after the repeat crowd to make them come back more often. Cheaper motel rooms, DVC and other incentives first turned the "once every three year" trip into an annual trip; then the annual trip to a couple long weekends every year. This crowd was interested in saving money, not finding new ways of spending it. The appeal of five buck beers quickly faded.

Then Disney furthered refined WDW into a "brand experience" place - instead of a general vacation destination it became All Disney Products, All The Time. The crowd that used to enjoy fine dining around World Showcase was pushed aside by Princess Dinners, people looking for golf or tennis became second class citizens to people trading pins. And adults looking for clubs and adult nighttime activies were outnumbered by people squeeling for nothing but Mickey.

That was the final straw for P.I. There was no way Disney could "brand-up" the place and keep it profitable. Booze and snow globe collectors don't mix. So Disney is abandoning the island. It will be sold off in bits as they find idiots, I mean, business people willing to pay Disney's huge rents for their crack at the tourist market.

MJMcBride

02-04-2008, 11:37 AM

Booze and snow globe collectors don't mix.

Really? I always thought it was the drunk people who bought those things.:)

paulh

02-04-2008, 12:14 PM

Disney is all about the money these days, .

Basicly thats what a buisness is all about.it was that whent walt set it up.if they didnt make money they would have to shut the parks down
Paulh

DC7800

02-04-2008, 03:02 PM

Basicly thats what a buisness is all about.it was that whent walt set it up.if they didnt make money they would have to shut the parks down
Paulh

There is a world of difference between Disney today being all about the money, "We will not be distracted from what has been and must remain our sole focus - delivering growth and shareholder value" (Michael Eisner), and "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money" (Walt Disney).

CanadianGuy

02-04-2008, 03:28 PM

There is a world of difference between Disney today being all about the money, "We will not be distracted from what has been and must remain our sole focus - delivering growth and shareholder value" (Michael Eisner), and "Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money" (Walt Disney).

Well .. I'm not up on the history on this point .. but that's the kind of thing that happens when you take a company public.

The markets these days (as is frequently noted on these very boards) are very unforgiving. The slightest sign of weakness is an order to 'sell sell sell'... and in the end that directly affects share price, market cap, credit rating, ability to raise capital, interest rates paid on debt.... and all those things affect your eventual profitability .. it's a vicious cycle.

Walt was a fine guy (publicly anyway) .. he espoused some excellent core business values that the current management team could definitely take some cues from .. but eulogies and homilies aside.. he'd be shredded in today's business world IMHO.

K

Another Voice

02-04-2008, 04:49 PM

he'd be shredded in today's business world IMHO.
This is probably the most bogus, ill-informed and incorrect statement that continually gets made on these boards. Ignorance seems to be harder to stomp out than the common cold.

Stop with the foolishness and get back to an intelligent discussion. Victimization and “poor put-upon Disney can only afford Dino-Rama” works with stupid fanbois, but it doesn’t work in adult conversation.

The heart of the matter is increasing turnstile click across the entire property, not just one gate verses another. Corporate is convinced, and with pretty good justification, that they’ve basically hit the limit on the number of people who will go to WDW. There is a limited market for theme parks, a limited market for the Disney Brand Experience.

The idea behind Animal Kingdom was to both get more people to come and to get people to stay longer. The problem with the park is that Disney in AK overwhelmed the nature element (and turned off people looking for zoos or nature parks) and the Disney crowd had hit the limit on the number of days they can afford on property.

Until a way can be found around those two issues – either finding a way to appeal to the non-Brand crowd or upscaling the Disney audience to afford more days – attendance is basically stuck where it is. So far Disney has shown little ability or desire to attempt either goal (beside taking some snooty art photos for upscale glamour magazines).

The other issue is capital investment. Disney hates spending money on the parks. You get a much faster return from another year of Zack and Cody than building stuff. That’s why you won’t see a evening parks or mini parks. Too much capital for a twenty year payback.

Instead, you’ll see a continuation of revenue enhancement activities. New ways to make people pay for the same park over and over again (‘Pirates and Princess Party), sharp pencil carnival gimmicks inside the parks (on-ride photos, holiday pricing), and the expansion of add-ons ([i]Fantasmic! Dinner plans).

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-04-2008, 05:48 PM

This is probably the most bogus, ill-informed and incorrect statement that continually gets made on these boards. Ignorance seems to be harder to stomp out than the common cold. Stop with the foolishness and get back to an intelligent discussion.

Another Voice, I enjoy your posts and you appear to be well-informed if not well-connected with Disney World. But I think it's improper for you to slam other posters just because they voice an opinion you disagree with. You present your "opinions" as facts. But unless you can state the basis of your "opinions" as actually being facts, we should accept them as your opinion. And someone else's opinion is just as valid as your opinion. It's hard to have "an intelligent discussion" if you're the only one who can be right.

BobK/Orlando

Another Voice

02-04-2008, 06:45 PM

It's always been touted "as a fact" today's business climate is so rough, that Wall Street is so driven, that the world is so eager to devore fluffy bunnies that Walt would have been grounded into hamburger.

That's a complete lie.

Business has changed, but it's certainly not the case The Great Depression was an easy time to start a movie studio in a garage, that World War Two really was a boon for expanding markets, and that getting capital from a bank was a simple matter of filling out a deposit slip.

In fact, today's capital sources - from venture captalists to junk bonds to hedge funds to international money markets - would have seem like impossible dream to anyone in the 1950s. Stock holders are infinetly more forgiving than Bank of America's board of directors were (for which Michael Eisner and the last ten years of his tenure will be forever grateful for).

This is not an opinion, it's simple history. It's never been easy to start a business, it's never been easy to grow a business, it's never been easy to sustain a business.

But there's this myth out in fanhood that somehow Walt had it really easy and therefore we can't hold today's company to the same standard.

That's utter and complete Billabong Sausages.

Walt got where he did because he created films people wanted to see and places people wanted to visit. Disneyland could have been as huge a flop as California Adventure is - had Disney not spent the talent, energy and imagination to make the place "magical" instead of relying on cheap marketing phrases like DCA did.

Disney's success has nothing to do with easy money - it was a gift of showmanship combined with talent to pull it off and a deep understanding what people wanted. Today's Disney, for all it's money, doesn't seem to have those qualities. And that - not the stock market - is why things are different.

Disney's current failures have nothing to do with a shortage of funds. If Disney can waste hundreds of millions of dollars on Internet fiascos, plane leases and mega-flop movies without Wall Street even saying a solitary bad word - then certainly they could have dropped an additional $20 million and given WDW a real Winnie the Pooh attraction instead of the parking lot carny version we got.

Today's Disney remarks off-handledy that they have to spend one billion dollars just to begin to fix California Adventure and Wall Street writes that off as nothing. Can you imagine what would have happened to Walt if he went back to Bank of America's board and said "sure, Disneyland has attracted less than 20% of the people we anticpated over the last five years, but just give me more money than I spent originally and things will be fine"?

Granted, among fans of a company it's very tempting (if not a requirement) to ignore what really happens so that today seems all warm and fuzzy. You can't convinence a Brintey fan that's she's a complete loon, you won't get a Disney fanboi or fanprincess to say Monsters Inc. Laugh Floor is pretty sad for a company that at one time created 'The Haunted Mansion'.

There are plenty of fan sites on the Internet were the past is forgotten and today is all joy and rainbows. The DIS Boards is one of the few that (sometimes) grows beyond that into true, adult conversation. We were talking about the real reasons why a fifth theme park won't happen. It has nothing to do with Walt easy, carefree life or the evil financial analyst devils that crush all of Bob Iger's dreams. Instead there are real business decisions made by real people. That's what we should be talking about, not spreading falsehoods about times past.

MJMcBride

02-04-2008, 07:46 PM

Another Voice, I enjoy your posts and you appear to be well-informed if not well-connected with Disney World.

He only think he is, don't encourage him ;)

CanadianGuy

02-04-2008, 09:11 PM

It's hard to have "an intelligent discussion" if you're the only one who can be right.

It's taken me 24 months of beating the same dead-cat (rat? mouse?) to come to the same conclusion.

Adult conversations rarely involve name-calling or put downs. That seems to the trend on this board... Unless you agree with some folk, you're just flat out wrong.

You can have your opinion on Walt Disney's business skills and I can have mine. The skills required to do what he did when he did it.. in my opinion are very different from those to do what needs to be done TODAY. Showmanship is sorely missing from some aspects of the Walt Disney Company today in my opinion.. But on this board.. it's missing from ALL aspects of the company.. all hope is lost..

The other side of the arguments here appear to be something like "everything is terrible" .. and if anyone DARES point out that not "EVERYTHING" is terrible you label them a fanboi to further discredit any meaningful discussion.

I appreciate your posts A/V - REALLY I do.. you frequently have an insight and perspective that is a pleasure to read (even if I don't completely agree with every point , everytime) .. and I enjoy meaningful conversation back and forth

But it's impossible to have that adult conversation on this board without being called names and put down.. makes it hard not to get personal in return.

There is no back and forth in these discussions, therefore they are not meaningful, but just spiteful and mean.

Forget it - y'all can fight amongst yourselves. Pat yourself on the back, you've beaten another 'fanboi' into staying away from your threads!

Knox

Another Voice

02-04-2008, 09:23 PM

Just because an opinion exists does not make it valid.

If you have a different view of Walt's business skill, or can show that building a theme park in dramatically more difficult today than fifty years ago - then please state them. That forms the basis of a discussion.

But to demand that everyone not challenge your opinion or agrees that your assertions are just as valid as anything else - simply because that's what you believe - is exactly the same thing you are slamming others for. It really is "my way or the highway" - choosing to run away rather than defending what you say.

If I'm wrong, tell me how I am wrong. I didn't come to these conclusions overnight, nor are they fixed in stone.

CanadianGuy

02-04-2008, 09:30 PM

Just because an opinion exists does not make it valid.

And finally we can agree on something.

Let's end it there.

Knox

leanan

02-05-2008, 12:34 PM

One problem with taking away the clubs from PI is that PI has pretty much destroyed most of the privately owned clubs in Orlando. It was too much to compete with Disney as the concept and price of PI is very appealing.

I used to have an annual pass to PI so I could attend AC. The regulars got all snarky about the change in rules and I realized what a bunch of babies they were. I had seen the show too many times at that point. I ended up not renewing due to all of these factors.

I think Disney should have stuck to keeping a couple of the dance clubs 21 and up but allow minors to go dance in some of them as done in the past.

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-05-2008, 08:49 PM

One problem with taking away the clubs from PI is that PI has pretty much destroyed most of the privately owned clubs in Orlando. It was too much to compete with Disney as the concept and price of PI is very appealing.

PI did probably put a lot of clubs out of business; I think it's undisputed that they put Church Street Station out of business. But Orlando is considerably bigger now and downtown has an incredible array of clubs that are thriving.
I think there are at least 2-3 new clubs in the I-Drive area that can siphon off guests on some nights. (Destiny is incredible!) For some PI is just too far away and the PI entry fee is steep by anyone's standards. The continued reduction in the number of clubs included in the ticket price doesn't help either.

I think Disney should have stuck to keeping a couple of the dance clubs 21 and up but allow minors to go dance in some of them as done in the past.

I respectfully disagree with this. Clearly the clubs that allowed 18-20 was attracting too many teens just hanging around and that was scaring away other guests. With the island open now to pedestrian traffic (and unlikely to ever go back to being a closed island) they can't have people hanging around. Shop in the stores and restaurants (with more coming) but otherwise please move along.

BobK/Orlando

leanan

02-05-2008, 09:10 PM

I have been to clubs in Atlanta that cost me as much as PI does so while it is over priced it is still a somewhat better deal than one club for that price. I guess it all depends on what you are used to and so forth.

I am glad to hear we are getting some real clubs again in Downtown Orlando. It is one of the things Orlando needs. I have not been to a club down there in a while.

As for teens at the clubs, Disney is Disney and it caters to families. So yes it proposes a problem but if the parents are expected to stay with their kids at all times perhaps it would not be as much trouble.

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-10-2008, 03:44 PM

Rumor heard last night at PI was that the site of Rock'n'Roll Beach club was going to possibly be the future site of a Lucky Strike Bowling alley. Lucky Strike is a combination bowling alley, lounge, restaurant and art gallery, per their website: http://www.bowlluckystrike.com/

Tampa's Channelside entertainment area has a similar bowling operation but it's called Splitsville, not Lucky Strike. I could see locals doing an outing to one of these luxury bowling alleys but would tourists really want to go bowling on their holiday?

I want to stress this was just a rumor like all the others. We'll see.

BobK/Orlando

Uncleromulus

02-11-2008, 04:28 AM

Hard to say. I know they play mini-golf, so maybe bowling isn't much of a jump. Would be a rainy day haven, if nothing else.

cmash95

02-11-2008, 08:26 AM

it seems strange to me that the only other place that doesn't close it's doors after 10 are the two clubs at boardwalk. i know disney is for families but if you continue to close venues that adults like,( and they are the ones with the money after all.) why would anyone want to return? I would think especially with dvc they would be clamouring for something adult oriented. again disney is being shortsided, you need more than restaurants in order to please adults. and tearing down the building will cost almost as much as it would to fix the roof.

paulh

02-12-2008, 04:00 PM

in all honesty to us from the uk PI has allways been a disapointment.Most of our major towns have clubs and bars drink,til 4am and 18+.there is a lot of disapointment when we go over there to PI.even our local high street has more bars,pubs and resturernts abiet not on disneys scale,but then again PI is not what we go to disney for.if it was we would go bedindorm, Ibiza or the greek islands and party 24/7
Paulh

Rora

02-12-2008, 04:55 PM

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought immediately "PI is something I really wouldn't miss". I never knew the story behind it and now my feelings have changed. While I've always enjoyed PI, I'd rather spend my $$ on Disney merchandise or maybe an extra day at a park (if you include admission to the clubs, plus your drinks, random stuff you might happen to buy while intoxicated, etc etc=almost a one day pass for a park). Perhaps PI could reinvent itself and bring back the story. We'll see what happens! :)

MJMcBride

02-14-2008, 01:50 PM

http://www.mouseextra.com/2008/02/14/a-clearer-look-at-what-may-become-of-pleasure-island/#comment-2317

Here's a new rumor going around on this topic

Rora

02-14-2008, 02:27 PM

http://www.mouseextra.com/2008/02/14/a-clearer-look-at-what-may-become-of-pleasure-island/#comment-2317

Here's a new rumor going around on this topic

Hm.. what kind of unique shopping, entertainment and resturants will go in it's place?

MJMcBride

02-14-2008, 03:08 PM

Hm.. what kind of unique shopping, entertainment and resturants will go in it's place?

hopefully, nice places to eat and drink without a big cover charge

OKW Mom

02-15-2008, 12:51 PM

It seemed like it took awhile to park, get in line, pay to enter and then another line for a restaurant.(Rose O'Grady's?). We were on a budget honeymoon and were surprised by the meal costs-I think we ordered appetizers and dessert.
I do not remember that street being that fascinating and we never went back.

We did enjoy PI in 94' with 3 other adult couples. We liked the comedy club even though the drinks seemed high. Enjoyed the different clubs until the one of the couples started their picking at each other.

I will never forget seeing Sheryl Crowe and shooting pictures with my 210 zoom in the beach club venue. VH1 was doing "fairway to heaven" and Bill Murray was seen in the crowd that night.

Between seeing Garth Brooks across the dinner table at Portobello Yacht club and Vince Gill in the hallway it was a night we'll never reproduce. Once you have 1 night like that - how can you top it?

Walked the area in September 07' and really did not see a reason to come back and pay for the "privilege" of buying drinks.

Resources are finite, do any of us know the direction Orlando will face in the next 3 years?

ChrisFL

02-15-2008, 03:17 PM

DizzyErin

02-15-2008, 06:37 PM

Ok sorry if am posting this in the wrong place .. but really need an answer to my question and can't find it :laughing:

I am meeting with friend's at Raglan Road for dinner and am wondering do i need a ticket to get into PI .. it's not included in my main Disney ticket and i know you can pay extra for that option, but is that for PI itself or just the clubs????? HELP :laughing:
TIA

wendyinoc

02-16-2008, 12:20 AM

doconeill

02-16-2008, 09:56 AM

ConcKahuna

02-16-2008, 12:32 PM

Well I think a lot of PI traffic was locals and I know a lot of them are going to Citywalk now instead.

Myself, and many others I know local, HATE Citywalk (we call it something else, but I'd get points. Think "Poppywalk"). First is the parking garage. I dont like being a mile from my car. Then there is the fact that gangs are MUCH worse at CW than I have ever seen at PI. I've never seen a cop have to throw someone down to take a switchblade from them at PI, but I've seen it at CW.

As for the R&RBC closing, I wouldn't be suprised if it just moved to where Motion is. Ever since Wildhorse closed and became Motion, it was considered by most people who went to PI as the "Under 21 version of Mannequins." They often play similar music.

So here are some rumors I've heard.

BET's contract is nearly up, so BET soundstage may be leaving.
8-Traxx is moving and Mannequins is being expanded to include that club.

So here's what I see happening...
8-Traxx moves to where BET is. With the neon inside and out, and the layout, BET always had a very "Discoesque" feel to me. It wouldnt take much in the way of refurbishments to change it over.
R&RBC moves to Motion. That club had a tendancy to get very crowded.

KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

02-16-2008, 01:09 PM

Successful bars/night clubs are huge moneymakers so I doubt that all the clubs will disappear. But while the current 8TRAX is adjacent to Mannequins, I can't see combining them would accomplish anything. It's easy enough right now to hop from one to the next. And the whole focus at Mannequins is on that revolving dance floor so having extra space in the direction of what is currently 8TRAX wouldn't gain them anything either.

The BET name is apparently going to disappear but I don't necessarily see that a hip-hop oriented venue would disappear. Hip Hop is a huge force in music worldwide right now and as long as it's profitable, why not continue to operate it but just with a new name? BTW, B.B. Kings recently opened at Pointe Orlando and it's going after that same market.

I don't hang out in Motion much but the times I've been there it's usually quite crowded. Of course crowded doesn't mean they're selling a lot of drinks. I think it's gotten better since they went back to 21 instead of 18. But the music I hear in there mostly duplicates BET, not Mannequins. Motion is officially a Top 40 club and let's face it; most of Top 40 is hip hop. .

This of course is all speculation. Only the Mouse knows and he's not telling............yet.

BobK/Orlando