Segways spark suit vs. Disney

[crazy4wdw]

Segways spark suit vs. Disney
3 disabled people say they need the motorized scooters to get around

Scott Powers | Sentinel Staff Writer
November 10, 2007

Three disabled people who say they rely on two-wheeled Segways to move about sued Walt Disney World in federal court Friday, seeking to force the resort into letting disabled visitors like themselves ride the motorized, upright scooters in Disney theme parks.

The three individuals -- a man and woman from Illinois and a woman from Iowa -- also asked that a judge in U.S. District Court in Orlando certify their suit as a class action, potentially representing numerous disabled users of Segways nationwide.

Mahala Ault of Illinois, Stacie Rhea of Iowa and Dan Wallace of Illinois say in the lawsuit that they use Segways as mobility aids but that Disney has denied them permission to use the vehicles at Disney World. Ault, 33, has multiple sclerosis. Rhea has amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, also known as Lou Gehrig's disease. Wallace lost his left foot in a 1999 accident. Each of them can stand but cannot walk far, the suit states.

They are among an estimated 4,000 to 7,000 similarly disabled people who have turned to the self-balancing, electric Segways as mobility tools, according to the suit.

Introduced in 2001, Segways weren't designed as mobility devices for people with such disabilities. And while thousands may consider them a useful alternative to wheelchairs, their $5,000-plus cost is not normally eligible for health-insurance coverage or state or federal assistance.

Still, the lawsuit contends that Disney violated the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires businesses to make "reasonable modifications in policies, practices or procedures" to accommodate disabled customers. The suit's goals and arguments are similar to those raised by a group called Disability Rights Advocates For Technology, or DRAFT, which is pushing for nationwide acceptance of Segways' use by the disabled. But neither the three plaintiffs in Friday's lawsuit nor their lawyers are connected with DRAFT, said Nancy A. Johnson, an attorney with Dempsey & Associates in Orlando and one of the plaintiffs' lawyers.

A Disney spokeswoman said Friday that the company had not had a chance to review the suit and so would not comment directly on it.

A report in the Orlando Sentinel last month detailed DRAFT's dispute with Disney and SeaWorld. Both theme-park companies argued then that they meet the needs of their disabled guests by allowing wheelchairs and conventional motorized scooters, and that they have safety concerns about the swifterSegways, particularly on crowded walkways. They said they also don't know of a practical way to determine whether a Segway user entering a park has sufficient training or experience.

"We've made our position very clear on these Segways in our parks," Disney spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Friday. "Our primary concern is the safety of all our guests and our cast members. We have a long history of being a leader in creating accessible experiences for our guests with disabilities."

In their lawsuit, Ault, Rhea and Wallace state that they do not own a wheelchair or conventional scooter.

"The biggest thing I keep hearing is it is a dignity thing," said Johnson, the lawyer. "People say, 'I don't want to be put in a wheelchair.' "

[ChrisFL]

Quite ironic in Disney's case

[I'mNoPrince]

I totally agree with Disney on this.

Even though they do the Segway tours they watch to see if that person is able to use it before going out into public space.
Even ten it's not that crowded as they finish.

They offer other means so the person would not have to own a wheelchair or scooter.


If they do allow them That might just help me decided to get one. As they can't deny able bodied persons from using devises that the Disabled use.
You just wouldn't get an Guest Assistance card

[doubletrouble_vb]

I saw a chair on tv that was $25,000 that adjusted from being a motorized scooter to something segway like so the user can "stand up". I wonder if Disney would allow something like that in?

[merryweather20]

I saw a chair on tv that was $25,000 that adjusted from being a motorized scooter to something segway like so the user can "stand up". I wonder if Disney would allow something like that in?

Yes, there are also mobility aids where the person would remain standing during use, they would have to avoid rides and transfer to a manual chair (if possible) for specific rides, the difference here is that they are purpose built mobility aids and the Segway is not.

[MassJester]

We use Segways in several high crowd work enviornments and the users need to go through a pretty strict training program. Fast moving vehicles and crowds are a tough combination, and it would be difficult to ensure that visitors who brought one to use in the park was sufficiently trained (or even able) to use the device safely.

[rantnnravin]

i disagree with Disney on this one. Their position is discriminatory.
my mom has herniated disks and is unable to sit for extended periods of time. The use of a wheelchair or scooter would actually exacerbate her condition. The segway would be a superb way for her to be able to tour the theme parks.
If they're that worried about the user's ability to navigate, perhaps they can use the Epcot Segway area as a certification ground of sorts, allowing users to demonstrate their ability to maneuver & such.
Honestly, just as they can have a "no running" policy, they can ask that segway users maintain a minimal speed - or have their own that are dialed down to a slower speed for guest's with with medical documentation to use .
And if safety's truly the case, i've seen some scooter users in the parks that i wished had gone through some licensing procedure:rotfl:

[minnie61650]

We use Segways in several high crowd work enviornments and the users need to go through a pretty strict training program. Fast moving vehicles and crowds are a tough combination, and it would be difficult to ensure that visitors who brought one to use in the park was sufficiently trained (or even able) to use the device safely.


I have limited mobility and at home I use a walker or an electric mobility scooter.
When visiting local stores, or vacationing at WDW, Las Vegas and other destinations where a lot of walking is the norm I use a mobility scooter (EVC).
Most mobility scooters have a speed of about 5 MPH or less.
I agree Segways can go much faster and should not be brought into parks by visitors . As I understand it, the ADA won't allow Disney to challenge the disability of an individual. Someone who is wealthy may be unlikely to see any 'prestige' attached to driving a scooter, but they might think using a personal Segway would be a fun and easy way to get around the parks.

Just my 2 cents

[minnie61650]

i disagree with Disney on this one. Their position is discriminatory.
my mom has herniated disks and is unable to sit for extended periods of time. The use of a wheelchair or scooter would actually exacerbate her condition. The segway would be a superb way for her to be able to tour the theme parks.
If they're that worried about the user's ability to navigate, perhaps they can use the Epcot Segway area as a certification ground of sorts, allowing users to demonstrate their ability to maneuver & such.
Honestly, just as they can have a "no running" policy, they can ask that segway users maintain a minimal speed - or have their own that are dialed down to a slower speed for guest's with with medical documentation to use .
And if safety's truly the case, i've seen some scooter users in the parks that i wished had gone through some licensing procedure:rotfl:

That is the problem. Under the American Disability Act Disney cannot require a vistor to have a Dr's note or proof of Disability. They also cannot require that a user of an EVC/mibility scooter go through some kind of training or licensing procedure before renting an EVC out.
They can however require the driver be a certain age.
Disney and most of the Orlando scooter rental places require that the driver who rents the mobility scooter must be at least 18 years of age.

Just my two cents.

[rantnnravin]

That is the problem. Under the American Disability Act Disney cannot require a vistor to have a Dr's note or proof of Disability. They also cannot require that a user of an EVC/mibility scooter go through some kind of training or licensing procedure before renting an EVC out.
They can however require the driver be a certain age.
Disney and most of the Orlando scooter rental places require that the driver who rents the mobility scooter must be at least 18 years of age.

Just my two cents.
i think we've missed the forest for the trees here.
first, my point was that an ECV or wheelchair is not appropriate for all disabilities.
second, it's discriminatory to allow for only certain types of disabilities while excluding accomodations for others.
third, while a patron may not use a mobility assistance device in all life contexts, the theme park is one in which someone with diabilities exacerbated by conditions such as extensive walking might use a mobility device such as those who rent ECVs for use in the parks, although they have little trouble getting around at home without them - therefore, the cost of a personal ECV or the $25,000 for the LEVO might just be a bit cost-prohibitive for those who would like to visit the theme parks once every few years
lastly, being 18 years of age does not ensure proficiency with said devices, which is why my last comment was made tongue in cheek with requisite rolling smilie.

and, FWIW, if medical conditions can be challenged for a GAC, why not for the use of a Disney-owned segway for use in the parks?

[merryweather20]

You don't have ot be 18 to use an ECV in the park. If a child brings their own ECV they are welcome to use it. Its only renting the park ECV's that requires 18 years of age.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if medical conditions can be challenged for a GAC" There is no need for a doctor's note or any medical records to obtain a GAC.

You mentioned being concerned with the ECV's which top out at 5-6 mph or less and are low to the ground. So imagine how others feel about a Segway at 12 mph.

Reading through some of the news articles, this doesn't seem to be an issue of functionality for the litigators. I keep hearing "dignity" and "stuck in a wheel-chair" not ease of use, prevention of pain, and increasing endurance. It seems more like the plaintiffs and their lawyer have a skewed perception about using mobility aids, rather than an actual concern about accessibility.

[OneLittleSpark]

Reading through some of the news articles, this doesn't seem to be an issue of functionality for the litigators. I keep hearing "dignity" and "stuck in a wheel-chair" not ease of use, prevention pain promotion of endurance. It seems more like they have a skewed perception about using mobility aids, rather than an actual concern about accessibility.

Yes, I do rather take offense at the use of language in this article; I use a wheelchair to get about, and do not feel at all 'stuck' or 'undignified' in it. Anyway, that's a bit besides the point.

I understand that for some disabilities, a Segway is equal to, or better than a wheelchair as an assistive device. However, if Disney allows Segways in, they will have to allow anyone to use a Segway within the parks. This won't be a problem with those who use them daily as a medical aid, but how long will it be before rental companies begin renting them out to guests as a convenient mode of transport. These things can go up to 12mph and not everyone will be all that careful with it. It's an accident waiting to happen.

As the Segway is not registered as an official mobility aid, nor do the makers want to fight for such registration, Disney does not legally have to allow the vehicles into the parks, any more than they do wagons (which some people use as a mobility aid for smaller children). I think, therefore, the lawsuit may fail, but that's still to be seen.

In an ideal world, Disney would be able to allow Segways in, only those who needed them would use them, everyone would drive safely, and no one would cut anyone else up. Unfortunately, that is not the case. With the greater speeds, high centre of gravity and high line of sight, it would be extremely dangerous if anyone, especially a child, wandered in front of the Segway without looking (this happens to me in my wheelchair SO often).

[minnie61650]

You don't have ot be 18 to use an ECV in the park. If a child brings their own ECV they are welcome to use it. Its only renting the park ECV's that requires 18 years of age........

.

Sorry, I did mean to say that a person must be 18 years old to rent one of Disney's EVC's. I did not word that sentence correctly.

Thanks for pointing my error out to me.

[Cheshire Figment]

I have a few comments here. Let's look at some speed numbers.

2.0 MPH - This is the normal walking pace for most people visiting WDW. It is also the speed that WDW sets as maximum on the ECVs it rents to Guests. This can be a very reasonable speed as many users are paying more attention to the scenery and architecture than to the pedestrians around them.

4.5 MPH - This is a very fast walking pace. You find it used by people from places like New Yorkwhere walking long distances quickly is common. It is also the normal maximum speed for many ECVs, including the off-site rentals. I will often drive my ECV at this speed when I am by myself in the parks. However, I am concentrating on the people around me, and in or near my path, and not sightseeing. I will not travel at this speed when I am with others or when I am in a crowded area.

12.5 MPH - This is the maximum speed of a Segway with the "unlimited" (red) key. It is also the World Record speed for marathon runners. As mentioned earlier, the manufacturer of Segways has not asked for it to be certified as a medical device. If it is certified as a medical device, or Disney treats it as a medical device, then there could be no restriction on people bringing in ther own (or a rented) Segway.

Even if Disney states the "green key" only, there is nothing to prevent people from playing games with the keys or having a red key in their pocket. And there are too many people around with a "me first" mentality to state that this will not happen.

Guest Safety is instilled into Cast Members as the number one priority over everything else. Allowing Segway's into WDW will definitely be compromising Guest Safety. As long as they are not certified as medical devices they can be prohibited. Possibly there could be a justification on a case by case basis, but I am sure Disney does not want to open that can of worms.

And Segways are not idiot-proof. At least with an ECV if you take your hands off the controls it will stop.

And, by the way, for rental of an ECV not only does Disney require the user be at least 18, but that is also the rule from the various off-site companies.

[Tinkerbell1986]

I personally think Disney have a right to stop people using Segways in the park.

Those 3 people COULD have used wheelchairs or ECVs in the parks and they were therefore not discriminated against. My partner is a wheelchair user and when he read the comments about being "stuck" in a wheelchair or being "undignified" he was quite hurt. Those who need a mobility device which enables them to stand up are likely to have one of their own which they can bring to the park, so would not need to use a Segway.

Segways are NOT mobility devices and WDW have every right to prohibit their use, particularly when considering the speed. I think we should be grateful they are thinking about their guests safety.

If Disney allowed their use, then non-disabled people would probably start renting them to use in the parks and there would be swarms of people charging around at high speeds on these things. How much would you enjoy the parks then?

Just a separate thought but something that has been mentioned in this thread, I think Disney SHOULD require proof of disability for GACs, rental of wheelchairs/ECVs etc. In the UK when we go to theme parks we have to take my partners Disabled Badge (for parking) in with us to get a special assistance wristband. It seems to work very well.

Laura x

[pugdog]

Segways are NOT mobility devices...
Laura x

Exactly, according to current federal law Segways are not a legal mobility device. So until the ADA is amended to include them WDW has every right to ban them and no lawsuit will hold water.

No matter how many people feel they should or shouldn't be used it's a mute point until federal laws are changed.

[Shorty82]

Just a separate thought but something that has been mentioned in this thread, I think Disney SHOULD require proof of disability for GACs, rental of wheelchairs/ECVs etc. In the UK when we go to theme parks we have to take my partners Disabled Badge (for parking) in with us to get a special assistance wristband. It seems to work very well.

Laura x

The thing is that they CAN'T require proof. To do so would be to violate the law. Also, not everybody who needs a WC or ECV to make it through the day at WDW have proof. For instance, on my trip back in July my SIL used a WC for our day in the Magic Kingdom as she was very sore due to an undiagnosed disability she has and would have never made it through the day without one. She is working on getting it diagnosed but until she does she has no proof of the disability.

[erikthewise]

I hope this one goes down in flames. Segways for disabled guests should no more be permitted in the parks than ATV's. I can understand that some people may want to use them, but the likely result would be to increase the ranks of the disabled.

Not only can they result in painful injury at 5 mph, but Cheshire Figment has pointed out they can go up to 12 mph, and there is no practical way to prevent them from being used at this speed. 12 mph doesn't seem like much until you see someone operating one at this speed. At 12 mph they have six times the kinetic energy they do at 5 mph so you can imagine how much more damage they could do.

Disney's responsibility to maintain safe conditions in the parks far outweighs any Disability Act rights, should they exist in this case. A couple posters have pointed out they do not.

[GoN2WDW]

What a horrible idea! Segways in the parks. Don't get me wrong, those people who have a true disability and find it medically necessary to use a ADA recognized piece of equipment should have every right to do so. However, after the number of times I've gotten run into and over :headache: by wheelchairs, motorized vehicles, wagons, strollers, etc. the last thing I want to see in Disney is a large, fast-moving, heavy piece of machinery. :scared1: And how are they going to prevent people who don't need them from using them? Just the last time we visited WDW we got some snacks and sat down to relax and wait for the evening parade when a group came over with a woman in a wheel chair and tried crowding us out of our places. (Anymore, we don't even flinch and hold our ground, we've been had too many times.) After about 10 minutes the woman in the wheelchair stood up said, "Whoever wants to sit down, go ahead. I'm going to head back to the room." And off she walked down Main Street and out of the park! :mad: It is the tens of hundreds of incidents like that and when the family of 10 with someone in a wheelchair because they have an ACE bandage on their ankle jumps to the front of the bus line after we've already waited for 20 minutes and can't get on the bus, that make my family frustrated. When I see those families with children with severe disabilities who are carefully navigating their way around the park, I thank God my DD is healthy and I will gladly make way, have them go ahead in line, get special treatment from characters/cast members or assist them if they ask. It is those people who take advantage of the system that I hope feel really guilty when they see someone who is truly in need. :sad2:

Back to the Segways, I cannot imagine what injuries would stack up if they are ever forced to allow them in the parks. If that becomes the case, I hope those injured file suit directly against the person operating the Segway and not Disney. My DD and DH said that if they are eventually allowed they're starting a "Block The Segways" campaign! :rolleyes1

Yep, I know I'm going to get blasted.....

[theantibride]

"Still, the lawsuit contends that Disney violated the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires businesses to make "reasonable modifications in policies, practices or procedures" to accommodate disabled customers."

Disney has met that standard with wheelchairs and th elike. I have a chronic back conditiont hat flares up. When it does I rent the wheelchair for the day at WDW -- not an Electric one because I can power it myself and I thinkt he electric ones should only be for those who really need it and not lazy people who don't wanan walk (we've all seen them -- there are those who have legitimate reasons for needing them and those who don't). When I need to stop sitting I get up and walk with the wheelchair sort of like a walker. It helps keep the weight off my back but let's me stretch some as well. There are companies that make wheelchairs that can be standing -- this is NOT the same as a Segway and those wheelchairs are allowed in the parks -- I saw someone with one not but 3 weeks ago. I sincerely doubt this lawsuit would win because Segways are not medically approved devices for the handicapable. Disney meets every standard the law requires and more. Are these people planning on suing every place that won't let them bring their Segway in? The grocery store? The drug store? A restaurant? Doubtful, but they'll sue Disney because it's a big corporation and they think they can get money out of them. And I can tell you the restaurant my fiance works at would not let them in. They won't even let kids in the rolly sneakers in anymore. I think it's just a cheap shot to get money, honestly. Now please don't think of this as disrespect for anyone with any sort of disability. I have a very near and dear friend who must use a wheelchair and an aunt who now uses one because of MS. But if either of them came to me and said "I want to roam about a busy theme park in a Segway" I'd tell them they were nuts and to get in the wheelchair and enjoy the free ride of having someone chauffer them around. Because I have been rammed into with those electric wheelchairs and I have had my feet run over by them because people weren't watching where they were going or it was just too crowded. And being bumped and rolled over hurt plenty! I don't want to know how much being rammed into by a Segway hurts. Of course, if I got injured I suppose I could always sue to prohibit their use in the park, right? After all, turnabout is fair play! :-) JMO!

[minnie61650]

.......It is those people who take advantage of the system that I hope feel really guilty when they see someone who is truly in need. :sad2: .......

Yep, I know I'm going to get blasted.....

Please know I am not trying to blast you but I would like to tlet you and others know that the only advantage guests who use WC's/EVC's is they have a place to sit when touring the parks.


Is using a WC/EVC to make ones vacation less painful/to help with mobility/ and or stanima really taking advantage of the system?
What perks does a guest in WC/ EVC really gain?

This quote was posted on the disABILITIES board.

I have a trip planned for August. I have been only a partial participant in many family trips and adventures due to stamina and distance issues.
Like you I feared what "others would think", my own expectations and self image as well as my families.

after visiting these boards and pondering it How exactly is my using a wheelchair or scooter bothering or taking away from anyone else???
How am I taking advantage? I still pay the same to get in, I still wait in the same lines, still need to get to fireworks early to find a spot..
maybe I don't know about some hidden "perks" of having a chair or scooter but as I understand thus far the only effect I will have is taking up a bit more space in line.
But I won't need that space on the park bench for 5 hours now so you may have a shady place to sit!!
If you can not participate in your family vacation without a chair,scooter or GAC then GET ONE!
These things are designed not as "extras" but to allow EVERYONE to experience the magic of disney.
It provides equal access and opportunity.
Wee! I am so excited my kids are laughing at me!


--------------------------------------------------------------------

With the exception of The Make A Wish Children there is no front of the line pass.

Here is a quote from SueM in MN who is a moderator of the disABILITIES board.



That is a common misconception that people with wheelchairs and ECVs get moved to the front, but it's not true.
People using wheelchairs or ECVs don't get out of waiting in line.
Most of the lines at WDW are wheelchair accessible, so there are very few situations where someone actually goes thru a wheelchair entrance. In most cases, they wait in the same line with everyone else. For a very few attractions, there is an alternate entrace because the regular one isn't accessible and was not able to be made accessible (most in MK or Epcot since they were built before accessibility was thought of). There are some others, where the boarding area is not accessible and wheelchair/ECV users wait in the regular or Fastpass line and then are pulled into a different area for loading (Buzz Lightyear, Haunted Mansion and Splash Mountain are examples).

One of the other things that people who don't use wheelchairs don't know is where people with wheelchairs go when they are taken out of the line. They assume those people who 'disappear' from the line are boarding right away, but that is not usually the case.
If they can't board at the regular boarding spot, they are pulled out of the line - usually just before the regular line gets to the boarding area (so they have already waited as long as everyone that got in the line the same time as they did).
For example, at Buzz Lightyear, the 'pull off point' is after you have gone thru the room with the large Buzz Lightyear, near the point where regular line is beginning to enter the actual boarding area. Guests with wheelchairs/ ECVs are pulled out of line at that point and sent to the exit - not to board right away, but to wait. If there are too many people with disabilities already on the attraction, you have to wait for some to get off (for fire safetly and evacuation reasons). Because our DD can't get out of her wheelchair easily, we have to wait extra for a special car that the wheelchair can be loaded on. We usually see the people who were right ahead of us in line getting off after riding while we are still waiting to board. In some rides, boarding at the accessible area means you miss part of the attraction; for example, at Haunted Mansion, you miss the entire 'stretching room' part of the attraction.

The Safari at AK is notorious for extra waits for people with disabilities. Our longest wait there was an EXTRA 40 minutes at a time when the regular line was walk on and Safari Trams were pulling out partially loaded because people were not walking up fast enough to fill them.

Spaceship Earth is a ride with a handicapped entrance, but during times when other passengers are able to walk right on, our wait is usually 20-30 minutes.

AK and the Studio were built with what are called 'Mainstream Lines'. These are lines where the regular line is wheelchair/ECV accessible and a person using a wheelchair or ECV waits in the same line with everyone else.

Here's what it says in the official WDW Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities about Mainstream Lines and the list of attractions with Mainstream Queues:
As you can see, most of the lines are Mainstream Queues:

Magic Kingdom® Park
Ariel's Grotto
Astro Orbiter
Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin
Donald's Boat
Judge's Tent
Mickey's Country House
Mickey's PhilharMagic
Mike Fink Keelboats (seasonal)
Minnie's Country House
Pirates of the Caribbean
Space Mountain®
Splash Mountain®
Stitch's Great Escape!™
The Barnstormer at Goofy's Wiseacres Farm
"The Enchanted Tiki Room Under New Management"
The Hall of Presidents
The Magic Carpets of Aladdin
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
The Timekeeper (seasonal)
Tomorrowland® Indy Speedway
Toontown Hall of Fame
Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress (seasonal)

Epcot®
FUTURE WORLD
Imagination!: All Attractions
Innoventions East
Innoventions West
Mission: SPACE
Test Track
The Living Seas: All Attractions
The Land: All Attractions
Universe of Energy: "Ellen's Energy Adventure"
Wonders of Life: All Attractions (seasonal)

WORLD SHOWCASE
China: "Reflections of China"
France: "Impressions de France"
FriendShip Boats
Norway: Maelstrom
The American Adventure: "The American Adventure"

Disney-MGM Studios
Disney-MGM Studios Backlot Tour
Fantasmic!
Lights, Motors, Action!™ Extreme Stunt Show
Muppet*Vision 3D
Playhouse Disney - Live On Stage!
Rock 'n' Roller Coaster® Starring Aerosmith
Sounds Dangerous - Starring Drew Carey
Star Tours
The Great Movie Ride
The Magic of Disney Animation
"The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror™"
Voyage of the Little Mermaid
Walt Disney: One Man's Dream
Who Wants To Be A Millionaire - Play It!

Disney's Animal Kingdom® Theme Park
Caravan Stage: "Flights of Wonder"
DINOSAUR
Grandmother Willow's Grove: "Pocahontas and Her forest friends"
It's Tough To Be A Bug
Kali River Rapids
Kilimanjaro Safaris
Lion King Theater: "Festival of the Lion King"
Maharajah Jungle Trek
Primeval Whirl
Theater in the Wild: "Tarzan Rocks!"
The Boneyard
TriceraTop Spin

I wanted to add that Soarin' and EE are missing from the list. They are both Mainstream Access.
And, some attractions have limited number of spots for wheelchairs. We have already shown up for shows where there was still room for ambulatory people, but the wheelchair spots were already filled for that show and we had to wait for the next one (Voyage of the Little Mermaid, where we had Fastpasses; and ITTBAB, where the CMs were practically begging people to come into the queue because there was no wait in the standby line.

[DancingBear]

No matter how many people feel they should or shouldn't be used it's a mute point until federal laws are changed.Pet peeve here: It's "moot," not "mute."

[boomhauer]

This is a no-win situation for Disney. They don't allow them, they're discriminating and get sued. They do allow them, people get hurt and they get sued.

I agree with Disney 100% on this one. They allow ECV and wheelchairs. If you don't wanna use one, tough. You're not the only guests in the park.

[rantnnravin]

sensible up until this comment:
They allow ECV and wheelchairs. If you don't wanna use one, tough.

this is assuming that a wheelchair or ECV alleviates all conditions; they do not.

[erikthewise]

No matter how many people feel they should or shouldn't be used it's a mute point until federal laws are changed.

Pet peeve here: It's "moot," not "mute."

Some of us are wishing it WOULD be a "mute" point! :rolleyes:

There is no legal or moral right for a disabled person to have access to their vehicle of choice in all circumstances. They do not have the right to bring a four-wheeled bicycle, ATV, Mini Cooper, riding lawnmower, hovercraft, or Tournament of Roses float into the parks. Nor a Segway.

[Karnak]

A story in our local newspaper got my attention with the headline:

DISABLED GUESTS SUE DISNEY WORLD FOR SEGWAY BAN

The article said, in part "Three disabled people have sued Walt Disney World for not allowing them to use Segways to move around its theme parks. The three plaintiffs - a man and woman from Illinois and a woman from Iowa - also asked a federal judge here to allow their complaint to continue as a class-action lawsuit."

"Disney has said it fears Segways could endanger other guests because they can go faster than 12 mph. ... Our primary concern is the safety of all our guests."

Now I know I'm opening up a can of worms with the comment I'm about to make; but here goes anyway ...

Good Grief! If these people win we will have to add another walking hazard to moving around the parks. We have to watch out for children running, adults not watching where they are going, tons of strollers, wheel chairs, ECVs, and kids speeding around in heelies as it is. Add fast moving Segways to the list and it will become even more dangerous to walk around in the parks.

Comments?

Karnak

[ajleone]

IMHO its not so much the Segway use as it is the level of competency of the driver. A Segway being driven by a well trained/seasoned driver wouldn't be an issue. But those unused to using one in crowds would be a potential problem.

[Nancyg56]

I'll comment. I am not disabled so perhaps I don't have the same perspective as a person who would use a wheelchair or an ECV in the parks, but I would not advocate segways for anyone in theme parks. There has got to be a learning curve on one of those machines and the possibility if hurting someone is way greater than with an ECV. I think that the parks should be accessible and from my visits it seems to me that they are. Disney offers a lot of assistance to those who need it, and to sue because the mode of transportation is not what you would prefer is not valid, IMHO.

I just got a vision of a herd of segways racing down Main Street adn it was not pretty :scared1:

[Mickiethepooh]

I'll comment. I am not disabled so perhaps I don't have the same perspective as a person who would use a wheelchair or an ECV in the parks, but I would not advocate segways for anyone in theme parks. There has got to be a learning curve on one of those machines and the possibility if hurting someone is way greater than with an ECV. I think that the parks should be accessible and from my visits it seems to me that they are. Disney offers a lot of assistance to those who need it, and to sue because the mode of transportation is not what you would prefer is not valid, IMHO.

I just got a vision of a herd of segways racing down Main Street adn it was not pretty :scared1:

I use an Electric wheelchair at home and a 3 wheel ECV when I am out and my condition would not allow a SEGWAY.
BUT, those disabled guests that would be ON SEGWAYS if they were allowed would be trained better than the SEGWAY group Disney now has because they would live on these things day to day. I am sure they would be better on them than the Disney CM you see whipping around the parks on them now.

This lawsuit is not over the idea of Disney renting them to people, it is allowing them for Disabled people who already own and use them every day.

THere are also standing wheelchairs that cost about ten times as much as SEGWAYS too, Disney can't refurse those legally.

I think those sueing are going about it the wrong way, get the SEGWAYS accepted by the government under the ADA rules and then Theme parks or anyone else will not be an issue.

[SueM in MN]

This lawsuit is not over the idea of Disney renting them to people, it is allowing them for Disabled people who already own and use them every day.
::yes::
There is no reason that Disney would have to rent Segways to anyone and I don´t think Disney´s concern is over those people who own their own Segway and use it every day.
IMHO, their concern is because of all the outside companies that will spring up to rent Segways just the way that there are outside companies renting ECVS. I think that is their biggest worry because they will have no control about the amount of experience or the speed those people have.

[Nancyg56]

This lawsuit is not over the idea of Disney renting them to people, it is allowing them for Disabled people who already own and use them every day.

THere are also standing wheelchairs that cost about ten times as much as SEGWAYS too, Disney can't refurse those legally.

I think those sueing are going about it the wrong way, get the SEGWAYS accepted by the government under the ADA rules and then Theme parks or anyone else will not be an issue.

So you are saying that Disney would allow those who own them to use them in the parks, not make them available for rent the way ECV's and wheelchairs are available now? My concern would be that those who do not use them regularly would be renting them as somewhat of a lark and with the crowd levels the way they sometimes are I would be concerned if that was the circumstance. My mistake :guilty:

[CanadianGuy]

There is already an active thread on this located here on the Rumors & News board..

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1634152

I'm going to merge these two threads.

Thanks,

Knox

[SueM in MN]

So you are saying that Disney would allow those who own them to use them in the parks, not make them available for rent the way ECV's and wheelchairs are available now? My concern would be that those who do not use them regularly would be renting them as somewhat of a lark and with the crowd levels the way they sometimes are I would be concerned if that was the circumstance. My mistake :guilty:
Disney would not have to rent them, but there would be outside companies set up to rent them the same way that outside companies rent ECVs.
So, there would be people who do not use them regularly being able to rent them from inside companies and bring them into the parks.
Disney has the speed set low on the ECVs they rent, but the ones rented from outside companies go much faster. I´m sure that experience is also a concern for Disney.

[nanlou]

I wonder if you'd park your Segway with the strollers when you wanted to go on a ride? :rolleyes1

[mousecrazy2006]

What happens when the magic gets to be too much for the Segway rider? When they are looking at all of the details and themeing and do not see the small child walk out in front of them at 10 to 12 mph? Sorry I cannot support the use of segways in the crowded park conditions. I have walked in front of people, wheelchairs, and ecv's when Ihave been distracted by the magic. It's all about safety.

[Disney8704]

Found this article online. This just to go show everyone, people will sue someone for very stupid reasons! I cant see this lawsuit holding up.

Disabled guests sue Disney on Segway ban

by Justin Glow Nov 12th 2007 @ 2:00PM
A while back, Disneyworld made the decision to ban Segways from the park because "they can go faster than 12 mph" which is a danger to other guests. And now three disabled people are, of course, suing the company.

"The suit filed Friday says they're among an estimated 4,000 to 7,000 similarly disabled people who have turned to Segways as mobility tools," according to an article by the AP.

Okay, I can understand that it might be an inconvenience to not be able to use a Segway when you're used to riding one, but Disneyworld is a private company who has made a decision that's in the best interests of the majority. It's not like they're banning wheelchairs. There is a solution, however. If the problem with Segways is the speed, why not have an arsenal of speed-governed Segways that can be loaned out to guests. You could even paint them to look like Goofy or something.

[Webbie]

I can't see how Segways are going to work in Disney. Just picture the crowd after the last fireworks, all trying to get out of the park. Now picture segways trying to weave in and out of the crowd. Or should I say the mass of human bodies! One can barely get a baby stroller through the crowd. I for one would not be too happy about being run over by a segway.

[Bill From PA]

"If the problem with Segways is the speed, why not have an arsenal of speed-governed Segways that can be loaned out to guests."

The Segways used on the Segway tours have governors, we've ridden them this March on a Segway Tour, and they're still too dangerous in a crowd, IMHO. My 78 yr old mom hopped on a Jazzy for the first time ever on our 2004 trip and rode it like a veteran, without incident. No way would this happen with a Segway, Disney could not verify in advance that one of these lawsuit happy visitors were really skilled Segway users, nor should they. Wheelchairs and their electric counterparts are safe and widely available. All businesses like Disney have to make accomodations for the disabled, they don't have to make the specific accomodation that an individual might desire.

Bill From PA

[mx3man123]

Stupid lawsuits like this bug me. Disney will have to fight it off with their lawyers who cost a furtune. That expense will be passed on to us visitors with more expensive tickets and more expensive food etc.....

[jberry5]

Had Disney not already been in a relationship with Segways, I would have guessed this was an advertising stunt. Disney has alternate accomodations for those unable to walk through their parks, so you wouldn't think anything much would come of this lawsuit. HOWEVER, remember, people have won settlements in the court systems over coffee that was, believe it or not, HOT!

[snoopywoodstockus]

This was discussed on the Disunplugged a couple of weeks ago. Disney is protecting themselves and their guests by banning these.

If someone is hit by one who are they going to sue? The driver of the Segway or Disney. It will be Disney every time.

If they did allow them, you would have people that didn't need to use them riding them all over the park and people getting hurt because of them.

Isn't it amazing the number of ways people think of to sue someone.

OH NO! Now I will get sued becuase I think they should be banned at Disney (except for tours, official and demo use). :scared1:

[loveDmouse]

Had Disney not already been in a relationship with Segways, I would have guessed this was an advertising stunt. Disney has alternate accomodations for those unable to walk through their parks, so you wouldn't think anything much would come of this lawsuit. HOWEVER, remember, people have won settlements in the court systems over coffee that was, believe it or not, HOT!

Remember that those lawsuits (one I am thinking of in particular) were overturned and they ended up having to pay way more money then they were even getting in the first place. Serves them right.
The most ridiculous thing is that these cases even make it to court. They should be laughed right out of there.

I for one wouldn't want people on Segways all over the park. Seems dangerous to me.

[Buzz Litebeer]

Found this article online. This just to go show everyone, people will sue someone for very stupid reasons! I cant see this lawsuit holding up.
It should be a pretty short trial. Segways aren't recognized by the FDA as medical devices. End of argument.

There's a wheelchair called the iBOT that uses the same technology as a Segway. They are approved by the FDA as medical devices, and consequently, they are allowed in the parks and on property.

HOWEVER, remember, people have won settlements in the court systems over coffee that was, believe it or not, HOT!
In the case I think you're thinking of (http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm), it wasn't that the coffee was merely hot -- but hot enough to cause third-degree burns after seconds of contact.

[iuki]

You're absolutely right. Businesses only have to accommodate disabilities, e.g., wheelchair access. I can see people claiming to be handicapped just to ride Segways in the parks. As it is, we have witnessed people using wheelchairs to get ahead of the line to access the buses, and later see them running around and changing the person to be the disabled one in the wheelchair. These were people in their 30's.

[CanadianGuy]

I've merged two similar threads here.

Thanks,

Knox

[minnie61650]

.... As it is, we have witnessed people using wheelchairs to get ahead of the line to access the buses, and later see them running around and changing the person to be the disabled one in the wheelchair. These were people in their 30's.

FYI

If a guest uses a wheel chair to access a bus the chair is not a park rented wheel chair. The wheel chairs and EVC's that are rented in the parks are not allowed outside the park gate.
That means the guest would have to plan ahead of time and bring their own wheel chair /mobility scooter or rent a wheel chair / mobility scooter from an off site company.
There is a limited amount of Wheel chairs at the resorts and the guest would have to make arrangements to use of those.

I would just like to add that there are a lot of hidden disabilities and even people in their 30's can have heart conditions, cancer, MS ,and ALS among other diseases or disabilities.

Just my 2 cents.

[bflynn]

One point that I've seen missed on all the above - the highly increased possibility of injury to the Segway rider. When I did the Segway Experience, our group received a compliment in that it was the first time in a month that nobody fell, tripped, slid or rubbed wheels (which will dump two people at once!). The fact is, a Segway is more like a moped or motorized bicycle than a wheelchair. And if you've never ridden one - trust me that you wouldn't want to stand like that all day.

Additionally, if cities have the ability to ban them on their streets, then surely a business have the right to ban them within their business?

I love the Segway - but not in a crowded place like the parks.

Brian

[NH_Bubba]

The main thing is that the segway is not a recognized Handicapped mobility device by the local or federal government nor has the manufacturer registered to have it designated. Until it is recognized as such their claims under the ADA are pointless. If Disney has meet all the requirements that are outlined under the ADA (which I’m certain they have) than the suite will be dismissed. No one is disputing the rights of disabled persons but the ADA was established so that companies would have a set of guild lines to work with. I work for a property management company and we have our insurance company do a regular audit on our sites to ensure that we are meeting our responsibilities to the general public that come into our buildings.

Back ground -
My Grand Mother was a double amputee and confined to a wheelchair
My Grand father broke his back in an elevator accident and walked with a cane
My father was a partial amputee and walked with a walker
So I understand the difficulties that faced and take the requirements of the ADA very seriously.

[Tinkerdreams]

This is a no-win situation for Disney. They don't allow them, they're discriminating and get sued. They do allow them, people get hurt and they get sued.

Segways at Disney are a very bad idea and I believe that if Disney is given an edict by the court system to allow them, then any injuries that occur to guests involving these vehicles will be directly accountable to the individuals operating them - not Disney. Those individuals operating these Segways better be prepared to be sued if they cause injury. If I happen to be one of those injured, the person causing the injury better hold on to their hats..:mad:

[iuki]

FYI

If a guest uses a wheel chair to access a bus the chair is not a park rented wheel chair. The wheel chairs and EVC's that are rented in the parks are not allowed outside the park gate.
That means the guest would have to plan ahead of time and bring their own wheel chair /mobility scooter or rent a wheel chair / mobility scooter from an off site company.
There is a limited amount of Wheel chairs at the resorts and the guest would have to make arrangements to use of those.

I would just like to add that there are a lot of hidden disabilities and even people in their 30's can have heart conditions, cancer, MS ,and ALS among other diseases or disabilities.

Just my 2 cents.

I absolutely agree with you 100% that there are many hidden disabilities that are endured by people of all ages. In this particular case, without going into extensive detail, it was quite obvious that these people were abusing wheelchair priorities. I only mentioned the age to show that they were old enough to have known better. Anyone can borrow or rent a wheelchair outside Disney World.

iuki

[Snowgod]

It always amazes me how new technology has to fight for its place among us. As many times as I have been run over by ECVs out of control or people running with double wide strollers and yet you seem to think that Segways are dangerous. It is amazing what a youtube video can do to convince people that something is not as it seems. Having run a Segway business I can tell you that there are people who have a difficult time on a Segway. These same people have a hard time with most new things especially if they are balance related. I saw the same treatment given to snowboards when they first arrived on the ski slopes and it took years before people realized it was no more dangerous than skiing. Segways can be limited to a slow key and have great deal of agility in a crowd. As a mater of fact, if you try to run someone over they just need to push on your handle bar to move you away from them. Being run over by a Segway wheel hurts less to me than being stepped on by high heels or run over by an ECV and the small wheels they have. I am sure that someday this will be looked at as just a brick in the road for the mobility of people with disabilities, especially all the wounded vets now learning to glide on a Segway.

You should all check out DRAFT at their website http://www.draft.org and see why Disney will lose this battle eventually.

I have more miles on a Segway than many have in cars and I will admit that there are people who cannot use a Segway safely but I can pick them out before they even try. So can Disney after all the tours they have run. A simple certification program is all that is needed. :moped:

[Cheshire Figment]

You should all check out DRAFT at their website http://www.draft.org and see why Disney will lose this battle eventually.
Since the inventor and the manufacturer have both stated they have no intention of attempting to get the Segway certified as a disabled mobility device your retailer's trade association group will not get much support.

I have more miles on a Segway than many have in cars and I will admit that there are people who cannot use a Segway safely but I can pick them out before they even try. So can Disney after all the tours they have run. A simple certification program is all that is needed. :moped:
I would suggest you read the ADA. Disney cannot, if the device is certified as a medical device, ask for proof of disability. Also, Disney cannot, if it is a medical device, legally ascertain that a person can use the thing.

And what is to stop a "me first" person from putting a green cap on a red key? Unfortunately I have seen companies (in Las Vegas) advertise ECVs with the concept of "tour all day, save your strength and party all night". I can see the same thing here.

I am an ECV user and am in the parks (not just for work) over 100 days a year. In an ECV I am at the level where I can see small children. Also, I am paying attention to the area in front of me. Too many tourists, and they are the ones who run into people, are paying attention to the design/decoration/entertainment and not to the road in front of them

If you have a tourist on a Segway not paying 100% attention to where they are going they will run into children, and at 12MPH (or even 5MPH) that will cause injuries.

[erikthewise]

And what is to stop a "me first" person from putting a green cap on a red key?

Or just having a red key in their pocket while entering with a green key.
(Agree with the remainder of your post as well.)

[Snowgod]

To Cheshire Figment:

As you pointed out, the ADA has not certified them for use as a mobility device so Disney could require a test of ability for Segways. Draft is not an organization devoted to Segways, but instead uses technology (the Segway is one of many devices used) to help the disabled. The Disabled want to be empowered and as such should be able to choose their own method of mobility.

I want to know how many of you have been run over by a Segway?

How many have been hit by an ECV besides me?:confused3

[Cheshire Figment]

the ADA has not certified them for use as a mobility device.
There is nothing certified by the ADA. Any certification of a medical device is done by the manufacturer. The ADA only requires that people with disabilities be given comparable access, and ECVs do this.

I want to know how many of you have been run over by a Segway?

I have known people who have been taking the Segway tours in Epcot to have actually hit people. And this is after an hour of training and in an area with very few guests. And the CMs who use Segways as part of their job (certain park managers as well as some of the parking lot workers) all get at least 16 hours of training by Disney before they are allowed to use them.

How many have been hit by an ECV besides me?:confused3
Probably a lot, because many people a WDW don't pay attention to where they are going. However, I have had quite a few times when I have had my ECV come to a complete stop and somebody has walked directly into me. And I am in a sitting position so I can see children.

Can you promise that all people on a Segway will pay 100% attention to where they are driving and not to the park itself? And that they will be able to see small children who dart away from their parents? It is really a safety issue, and until someone can convince Disney that it is safe for pedestrians or the manufacturer has them certified as medical equipment, you can (and IMNSHO) forget about it.

And, by the way, I followed the link to DRAFT and then the link to some DoT Guidance, which says in part Also, a transportation provider is not required to permit anyone -- including a person with a disability -- to bring a device onto a vehicle that is too big or that is determined to pose a direct threat to the safety of others. and apparently Disney has made a determination that unless they are under Disney's control a Segway can be a direct threat to the safety of other Guests.

[Another Voice]

Can you promise that all people on a Segway will pay 100% attention to where they are driving and not to the park itself? And that they will be able to see small children who dart away from their parents?
All of which apply for electric carts as they exist today. I can tell you from painful - very painful - experience that people driving those things are as unqualified as Segway users are at there device. Someone driving their 500+ lb. cart over my foot still hurts even at 5mph.

Worse - the ECV requires even less attention from the operator than a Segway. I would say the electric carts are WORSE for exactly that reason - and we've all witnessed people plowing through groups, running over children, and "drivers" just plain being rude. How many times have we've seen an icebreaker come barrelling through a crowded walkway!?! As the accessablity of these devices has increased, so have to problems. And too are the number of people using these devices for non-medical reasons.

To be very blunt and offend a lot of people here - but something that needs to be said - if Disney can allow some guests to drive a dangerous, uncertified, no-training-required cart because of weight then can can certainly figure out a way for people with other problems to have the same access to the park.

[KYMickey]

OK, I've been reading all the bantering in this post with great interest since I am disabled. That makes me one of the most qualified who has responded to his post. Also prior to my present disability I have driven a Segway so I now how they operate.

From my experience Segways should not be permitted to be driven by anyone in the public areas of any Disney Property, in my anyone I'm also including Disney management. Maybe in a parking lots they're OK but they should not be permitted anywhere there's a lot of people. They have their place but their place is not on Disney Property. Even in slow mode they can turn very rapidly or slow down or speed up depending on the movements of the driver. This is especially true if the driver is observing other things (like Disney attractions) instead of paying 100% attention to driving the Segway.

As far has ECV's are concerned, they also are dangerous but not as bad as Segways. To start with their self balancing so all the driver has to do is steer and control speed so they don't have as much to concentrate on. As mentioned in several other posts they're also much lower so the driver can see other people were asked Segway drivers are much higher and thus are much less likely to see other people.

Electric wheelchairs are probably the safest of all. As a rule their speed is about the same or possibly slower than either of the other means of transportation and they're very maneuverable (can turn around in their own length). Again, the operator is at people level so they can see movement around them selves and since their feet are sticking out their operators take great care not to run into anything.

On this subject of not handicapped people taking advantage of handicapped privileges, I firmly believe everyone who uses handicap privileges should be subject to random checks if their handicap is not obvious. This should apply to parking and any other privilege extended to handicapped people. I've seen too many people abuse the privilege, not only at Disney but at many other places as well. Yes there are people with none obvious handicaps such as heart conditions, diabetes and many others, these people need the privilege but many other people who don't have the privilege or use someone else's handicap permit to abuse the system.

Pardon me if I am a little opinionated on this matter but after becoming handicapped the abuse of the system becomes very obvious. Also the insensitivity of people and places to the handicapped is unbelievable. This is especially obvious in the designed and use of handicapped parking spaces and in the designed of buildings for handicapped access.

[minnie61650]

.......On this subject of not handicapped people taking advantage of handicapped privileges, I firmly believe everyone who uses handicap privileges should be subject to random checks if their handicap is not obvious. This should apply to parking and any other privilege extended to handicapped people. I've seen too many people abuse the privilege, not only at Disney but at many other places as well. Yes there are people with none obvious handicaps such as heart conditions, diabetes and many others, these people need the privilege but many other people who don't have the privilege or use someone else's handicap permit to abuse the system.....



I agree there are people who will use someone else's handicap permit to abuse the system.It is not fair to those who truly need a Handicapped space.


Michigan has been cracking down and periodically checking out the validity of the Handicapped permits making sure that the owner of the permit was either the driver or a passenger in the car that was parked in a handicapped space.

In fact a couple of years ago DH and I took out DD up to her college dorm to move her in. We parked in the handicapped space and I used my walker with the attached seat ( since I have a spinal disability and can only walk about 50-100 feet before I need to sit for a minute) to her dorm room before he started unloading the van. Security came by when he was unloading the van and asked him where the owner of the handicapped permit was. DH explained that he had taken me up to our daughters room and gave him the room #. the Security man came up and checked my divers licence against the permit number and saw they were a match. No big deal. It was nice to know he cared enough to take the time and follow through.

Disney security can and should check the handicapped permits in the handicapped parking area if they feel abuse is taking place.


But under the American Disability Act Disney cannot require a visitor to have a Dr's note or proof of Disability. They also cannot require that a user of an EVC/mobility scooter go through some kind of training or licensing procedure before renting an EVC out to a person who is over 18 years of age. Until/unless that part of the ADA is amended we just need to accept that fact.

Just my 2 cents.

[Another Voice]

Of all the places on earth that would serve as a great testing ground for a whole range of mobility devices - I would think that EPCOT would be at the very top of the list. Testing, displaying and refining new concepts is - after all - the EPCOT mission statement. Instead of flat-out refusing, would not it have made sense for Disney to actualy work with all the group involved? The Segway is not the best answer, but it's probably pretty close. All of the objections raised against it apply to ECV and more so (where people don't even have to pay attention to where they're going) or can and should be fixed (speed regulation). There is such an immediate "they hate Disney so we'll hate them even more" knee-jerk response to the whole situation. It puts Disney in a very bad light.

[OneLittleSpark]

All of which apply for electric carts as they exist today. I can tell you from painful - very painful - experience that people driving those things are as unqualified as Segway users are at there device. Someone driving their 500+ lb. cart over my foot still hurts even at 5mph.

Worse - the ECV requires even less attention from the operator than a Segway. I would say the electric carts are WORSE for exactly that reason - and we've all witnessed people plowing through groups, running over children, and "drivers" just plain being rude. How many times have we've seen an icebreaker come barrelling through a crowded walkway!?! As the accessablity of these devices has increased, so have to problems. And too are the number of people using these devices for non-medical reasons.

To be very blunt and offend a lot of people here - but something that needs to be said - if Disney can allow some guests to drive a dangerous, uncertified, no-training-required cart because of weight then can can certainly figure out a way for people with other problems to have the same access to the park.


I sincerely hope you never have a mobility disability and are forced to eat your own words.

Yes, there are some people who drive ECVs without due care and attention. However, there are also people who walk, push strollers or wheel wheelchairs without due care and attention. Do you think people should have to take a 'walking test' before they're allowed to enter the parks? Because for those of us with disabilities, using a chair or ECV is our 'walking'.

Yes, maybe there are some people who use ECVs when they don't 'need' (and I use the word very loosely) them, but who are you to judge whether or not they do? They may have heart problems, joint damage, fatigue issues or a whole raft of other problems. I don't 'look disabled', I can even walk short distances, but if I don't have my wheelchair, I'll be housebound.

Besides, have you ever ridden through Disney at wheelchair or ECV height? Let me tell you, it's not the picnic everyone seems to think it is. You get a view of backsides, instead of castles; you're fairly regularly ignored; you have to concentrate completely on the crowds around you, rather than the beautiful surroundings (yes, I know some don't, but then they run the risk of getting whinged about on this board); you often wait longer for rides (oh yes, we don't get the wonderful 'front of line' perks that everyone seems to think we do); etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, I think all this is a little besides the point. Under the ADA, Disney must allow ECVs into the park, they are not required to permit Segways to enter as they are not officially disability aids. Segways have added dangers (the speed, the height of the user, the height of centre of gravity etc) that ECVs do not, and unless the item becomes an official disability aid, Disney has every right to refuse them entry, just the same as they can refuse entry to quad bikes (OK, I know they're different things, but I'm just making a point).

Anyway, that's my little rant over, sorry for getting carried away a bit there, I'm just having 'one of those days' and felt rather insulted but some of the earlier posts. Well, it's good to get that off my chest!

Fairy dust to all! :tinker:

[KYMickey]

Of all the places on earth that would serve as a great testing ground for a whole range of mobility devices - I would think that EPCOT would be at the very top of the list. Testing, displaying and refining new concepts is - after all - the EPCOT mission statement. Instead of flat-out refusing, would not it have made sense for Disney to actualy work with all the group involved? The Segway is not the best answer, but it's probably pretty close. All of the objections raised against it apply to ECV and more so (where people don't even have to pay attention to where they're going) or can and should be fixed (speed regulation). There is such an immediate "they hate Disney so we'll hate them even more" knee-jerk response to the whole situation. It puts Disney in a very bad light.

NO NO NO, the public areas of Epcot should definitely NOT be used as a testing ground for mobility devices or anything else for that matter. Safety should be of the up most priority in any public place and testing mobility devices (or testing of anything they could injure or harm a person in any way) should not be done here or anyplace where the general public could be subject to injury.

Yes, new technologies are one of the objectives of Epcot (at least for future world) and maybe controlled demonstrations of mobility devices could (or should) be done there, BUT members of the general public should not be let loose with any device that is unproven or unapproved for the proposed purpose.

As for the objections to Segways, maybe some do apply to ECV's but certainly to a lesser extent. Balance is not required to operate an ECV and actually the are used by some people who have balance related conditions. On a Segway the entire the entire operation is based on balance and body position so anybody movement (including rapid head moves) can cause the vehicle to move unexpectedly. Segways also are capable of much higher speeds than most ECV's which obviously causes more danger. And the fact that a person driving a Segway is elevated above the general population certainly causes more interaction issues than being down at crowd level. The biggest problem with Segways, ECVs and most other mobility devices is that people consider themselves to be the "rider" instead of "driver" of them. The only way a Segway could be considered safer is because other people could see a rider of one coming and get the **ll out of the way!

What would put Disney in a bad light would be headlines stating "Person injured by Segway rider at Disney"!

[Roxane]

Disney security can and should check the handicapped permits in the handicapped parking area if they feel abuse is taking place.

I don't think they check for permits at WDW. I'm recovering from a knee injury and didn't get a permit, since it's temporary. The parking attendents sent me to the handicapped parking and told me to get a GAC, so I just show my GAC now and they let me in. I would hate to get a ticket while I'm temporally disabled, the Dr bills are hard enough.

[Ozzie]

I have done the Segway tour and they do move at a faster pace than wheel chairs or motorized scooters. I would see them as a safety hazard in the parks when they would be crowded. I have seen people on the motorized scooters hit people and move on. You put someone on a Segway and they hit and knock someone over I can see it now it would be Disney's fault. Even the person on the Segway would end up putting the blame on Disney for allowing them in the park and Disney would be the party liable for all injuries and damages.
Can't blame them for not allowing them.................

[Another Voice]

I personally find ECV the most dangerous things in any Disney park. There isn't a visit that doesn't include seeing at least one child run over, one cart used to shove aside other people in the crowd, feet and toes run over, or assundry trash cans, line poles and other object smashed into.

Because those devices are given special and privileged status, I find them much more of danger than any Segway would ever be. To operate a Segway you must have some training to begin with and actually pay attention to the machine's operation. I've seen plenty of ECV plow right into a line of people becasue the operator was busy doing something else. The fact that you don't need any training or any certification to use an EVC is a serious defect in the ADA.

There is no reason why ECV should be the end all of mobility devices. There should be a constant stream of new technologies, new innoviations and new ideas throughout the entire field. In the community where I live some city departments are already using four wheel Segways - a solution that eliminates the concerns expressed on this board.

I see nothing wrong should Disney decide to allow new and better devices. In fact, the Disney I want to se would work with inventors and companies to create just such devices. The idea that ECV are "safe" is utterly wrong; the idea that everything else is dangerous is even more wrong.

And yes - my leg was crushed in an automobile accident several years ago. I know what it's like to travel Disney being mobility imparied. At this point there is nothing between using a cart for the entire day or suffering it out. There is a huge group of people that can be assisted by other devices than a ECV and that need should be filled.

And that should be the real point of this discussion - who does Disney make its park accessable to a larger number of people instead denying assistance to the people that need it.

[minnie61650]

......
There is no reason why ECV should be the end all of mobility devices. There should be a constant stream of new technologies, new innoviations and new ideas throughout the entire field......

I see nothing wrong should Disney decide to allow new and better devices. In fact, the Disney I want to se would work with inventors and companies to create just such devices. The idea that ECV are "safe" is utterly wrong; the idea that everything else is dangerous is even more wrong.

I agree EVC's should not be the end of all mobility devices.
I hope new and better mobility devices are made in the near future.
There are a couple of other mobility devices that Disney already does allow in the parks.
Two that I can think of right now are LEVO'S and iBOT's.

Here is a website about LEVO'S

http://www.levousa.com/

Here a photo:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a175/minnie61650/levo-combi.jpg

Here is a website about iBOT's:

http://www.ibotnow.com/about-ibot.html

Here is a photo of an iBOT:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a175/minnie61650/ibot-mobility-functions.gif

......
.......
And that should be the real point of this discussion - who does Disney make its park accessable to a larger number of people instead denying assistance to the people that need it.

I think Disney is making the parks accessable to a large number people and if Segways were classified as a mobility device than Disney would need to allow them in the parks.

Just my 2 cents.

[OneLittleSpark]

Because those devices are given special and privileged status

Sorry, I'm slightly confused here. What privileged status do ECVs get? Other than being treated, if you will, as the user's 'legs'. ECVs are recognised mobility aids, so are allowed into lines (where possible), but the user doesn't get any special benefits because of it. If I've misunderstood this point, I do apologise.


I think Disney is making the parks accessable to a large number people and if Segways were classified as a mobility device than Disney would need to allow them in the parks.

I agree with this! Disney goes above and beyond what is legally required to provide access for all, regardless of abilities. Sure the system isn't perfect, but then what is? They are trying their hardest to help those with disabilities to enjoy the parks, whilst keeping it as safe as possible for all guests. No guests are being excluded by the policy to disallow Segways, they just have to use a different assistive device, such as a wheelchair or ECV. I understand the annoyance of those who use them as a mobility aid, but Disney can't allow anything on wheels in under the name of a disability aid, otherwise people could come in in Quad bikes, trikes, handcycles etc. I doubt all other public businesses allow them in either, it's just that Disney is the 'big guy' so gets a lot of attention (and lawsuits).

Basically, Disney is not obliged to allow these in, full stop. Segways are not recognised mobility aids, nor do the manufacturers want them to be. If they help people with disabilities, great, but unless they become recognised aids, they do not have to be granted access to the parks.

[Another Voice]

Basically, Disney is not obliged to allow these in, full stop.
And that's my problem. Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to. Instead of saying "what an interesting idea, let's see if this can work" - Disney slammed the door shut on the entire concept. Granted, they make HUGE money from the ECV rentals and have interests to protect - but hiding behind the law is rather cheap and not worthy of the company.

Disney had a wonderful opportunity to be at the forefront of technology and innovation. Instead they refuse to budge - and the very people that ought to be asking for Disney to help instead seem to be the very ones throwing up more walls.

People are so unwilling to actually work through problems today. We've all got our little park and don't want to do an damn to let anyone else in.

What privileged status do ECVs get?
Well, they get in and Segways can't. That's priviledged access. The moment the law says "this machine is special and that one is not" - that's privilege.

[Buzz Litebeer]

And that's my problem. Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to. Instead of saying "what an interesting idea, let's see if this can work" - Disney slammed the door shut on the entire concept. Granted, they make HUGE money from the ECV rentals and have interests to protect - but hiding behind the law is rather cheap and not worthy of the company.
Segways are not recognized by the FDA as a medical device.

Segways are not marketed by Segway Inc. as a medical device.

It's just that simple.

[OneLittleSpark]

We've all got our little park and don't want to do an damn to let anyone else in.

The thing is, this isn't keeping any person out, it's just keeping a device out. I understand your point that if it helps someone, it should be allowed in, and the the person shouldn't have to compromise by using an alternative device. However, Disney does have to think about all their guests, not just the few who use Segways.

Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to.

Actually, this isn't true. They do go a lot further than they have to, as far as access is concerned. They can, by law, say that all wheelchair users have to transfer to go on rides, however they have tried their hardest to provide wheelchair accessible ride cars wherever possible.

The objections to Segways entering the parks is not against those who use them daily to get around, they are to stop complete novices 'learning' in the parks. If Disney suddenly said "OK, Segways can come in", how many people, who don't 'need' them for a disability, do you think would run out and rent them from an external company (which would, of course, spring up over night in response to demand).

May I please suggest an alternative scenario? What if someone used a Quad bike as a mobility device? It's not 'officially' a mobility aid, but it might really help this person, because they live in a rural area and the suspension prevents them being jolted around (hey, I'd love to have a quad bike to get around on :)). If you were Disney, would you, in all honesty, let them in with it? This may seem like an off-the-wall suggestion, but it is similar, in that it's a device, that has not been intended for mobility purposes, being used in place of a wheelchair.

EDIT: To Buzz Litebeer, thank you for this point, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Another Voice]

It's just that simple.
Which is exactly my point that people don't want to do anything these days.

I don't have to, so I won't. End of line. Period. The End. You're done. Put down your pencils. Disney is always right.

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.

But no - we can't even be bothered to think about it. How magical.

Of course, all the hostility is becasue a group dared say something not fan approved about Disney. And like all such people, they must be evil. In the end, it has nothing to do with Segways or killer EVCs - it's just plain comforting to believe that Disney is always right and everyone else is always wrong.

Naturally, if Disney had offered Segway rentals for $399 a day with a 20% discount to Annual Passholders and DVC owners, these boards would be overflowing with praise about how much easier it is get around WDW with these wonderful new devices.

[OneLittleSpark]

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.

The problem is, Segway don't want to make a mobility device. They want to make transport devices for the public, not mobility aids for those with disabilities. They have not tried to get their device classified as a disability aid, nor do they seem to be about to. This is not a slur against the company, it's just not where their business is working. Besides, as has been pointed out, there are already mobility products on the market that allow the user to "stand". These products are recognised as aids and are allowed into Disney.

Naturally, if Disney had offered Segway rentals for $399 a day with a 20% discount to Annual Passholders and DVC owners, these boards would be overflowing with praise about how much easier it is get around WDW with these wonderful new devices.

No, I honestly don't think Disney would do this. I'm sure they have looked into this carefully and have decided that the danger to all their guests far outweighs the benefits to the few who use Segways daily.

[Another Voice]

So then why didn't Disney just say "Segway doesn't want theuir device used for this purpose, but we'll work with the other manufactures that do". Why didn't Disney stand up for innovation and improved guest service when a large need has been brought to their attention? Instead of being helpful, Disney kicked right into being negative and that brought on the lawsuit (even if was just for pubilicity, they wouldn't have been able to get any had Disney been postive).

Disney always is proclaiming how wonderful they are, and the fans are always the first to heap all kinds of praise on the company - but it really seems that Disney has been lacking in real action, in real quality for a long time. I think it's time that Disney start making "magic" more than just an overused marketing bullet point and actually do something unique, innovative and amazing. It's been too long since Disney has been in the news for doing something good.

And in terms of saftey, this is the same park that put people on 'Mission: Space' - but that's the subject for another arguement.

[DisOrBust]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. The same could be applied to a segway. IMHO, it that simple. Just as HC plates are required on a car so should a permit be for every EVC/Segway. There are many guest who are cognitively impaired and have no business on an EVC.

[Buzz Litebeer]

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.
There is. It's called the iBot (http://www.ibotnow.com/), and they are approved by the FDA as medical devices. Consequently, they are allowed in the Disney theme parks.

The problem is, Segway don't want to make a mobility device. They want to make transport devices for the public, not mobility aids for those with disabilities.

See above.

[KYMickey]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. The same could be applied to a segway. IMHO, it that simple. Just as HC plates are required on a car so should a permit be for every EVC/Segway. There are many guest who are cognitively impaired and have no business on an EVC.
I agree completely with your concept that everyone who uses any device for increased mobility to overcome a disability should have an MD'S statement regarding the need. Although quite often abused most states require this to obtain a handicapped parking permit. Disney you or any other place who rents or allows customers to use these devices should also require the user to provide medical proof of need. This would greatly reduce the number of visitors who use ECV's and other special modes of transportation. I would say that Segways should also be able to be used with a doctor's letter but I'm sure that many unscrupulous doctors would write a letter for a fee!

One thing that hasn't been brought up extensively is the fact that there are many lawyers chomping at the bit to file a lawsuit against Disney or any other major corporation. I'm sure they will have a heyday if Segways are ever allowed on Disney Property.:rotfl:

[Shorty82]

Disney cannot ask for proof. It is illegal for them to do so. Also, not everybody who can benefit from using a WC or ECV in the parks have proof they need it. For instance, on my last trip my SIL used a WC for our MK day because her fibre myalgia (sp?) had flared up and she was very sore and wouldn't have made it through the day without a WC even though normally she has no need for one. Due to insurance issues she hasn't seen a doctor about it yet so is technically undiagnosed and therefore couldn't have gotten a doctor's note.

Disney already goes way beyond what the law requires for disabled access. Segways in the parks would just be a danger. The operator is way above the rest of the crowd, especially children, so would have a harder time seeing the people who walk or run right in front of them. They can also go a lot faster than is safe for the parks and limiting the person to the slowest key won't work as all they have to do is either switch key caps between the faster and slower keys or carry the faster key in their pocket until they are inside the gates.

[SpartanMouse]

If, during your family trip to Disney, someone was using a segway (for medical purposes) you know that EVERYONE else would want to play with it. I know I would!

Plus, my parents did the segway tour around the park a few years ago, and they had to go through some intense training before they were allowed to wheel around by themselves. And this was before the park opened, it was empty!

Disney goes to great lengths to accommodate everyone, depending on the need or even mere desire. I think, though, that segways in the parks would do more damage than it would assistance.

[DisOrBust]

But somewhere along the line your SIL got a Dx of fibromyalgia and at that point if deemed medically necessary could get a "permit" for a medical assistive device, even on a prn basis. I know it would be huge amounts of paperwork but that what they said when HC plates came to be. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine, I'll get off my soapbox.

I could see where a segway could be a great assistive device for specific cases. I also can see the herd of lawsuits with it.

[DisOrBust]

But somewhere along the line your SIL got a Dx of fibromyalgia and at that point if deemed medically necessary could get a "permit" for a medical assistive device, even on a prn basis. I know it would be huge amounts of paperwork but that what they said when HC plates came to be. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine, I'll get off my soapbox.

I could see where a segway could be a great assistive device for specific cases. I also can see the herd of lawsuits with it.

[minnie61650]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. ...

If someone is using a EVC at Disney just because they are "lazy" I think they would find out after the first day the EVC's are very inconvenient especially at Disney.
Those of us using an EVC seem to become "invisible" since able bodied guests seem to be crossing in front of us, stopping in front of us and never seem to see us until it is time for us to load onto a bus. When we are loading onto a bus that is when we become very visible.
It is very hard to drive an EVC in the crowds in the parks.
It is not easy backing up an EVC onto the bus lift and maneuvering the EVC into the tie down is very difficult. Add to that the stares we recieve and the rude comments we overhear can be heartbreaking. I highly doubt "lazy" people would submit themselves to that for very long.
Also EVC rental is quite expensive. My EVC cost over $200 to rent for one week. Most "lazy" people would rather spend the money on other things.
The EVC's that are loaded onto the buses are either privately owned or are rented from an offsite company.
I doubt that "lazy" people would think ahead enough to preorder an EVC from an offsite company.

Sure there may be a few people who use EVC's because they are lazy but I am betting they learn quickly it not easy or fun to use an EVC at WDW.
I know I wish I did not need to use one but without an EVC WDW would be inaccessible to me.

----------------------------------------------------------

I honstly do not see any advantage to renting a mobility scooter/EVC at WDW other than the fact that the user will be able to sit while touring the parks.

There is no front of the line advantage.
In fact our waits are often longer than the waits for able bodied guests.

Here is a Quote from SueM in MN who is a Moderator of the disABILITIES board.

From this thread:
http://disboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=22106520

......
People using wheelchairs or ECVs don't get out of waiting in line.
Most of the lines at WDW are wheelchair accessible, so there are very few situations where someone actually goes thru a wheelchair entrance. In most cases, they wait in the same line with everyone else. For a very few attractions, there is an alternate entrace because the regular one isn't accessible and was not able to be made accessible (most in MK or Epcot since they were built before accessibility was thought of). There are some others, where the boarding area is not accessible and wheelchair/ECV users wait in the regular or Fastpass line and then are pulled into a different area for loading (Buzz Lightyear, Haunted Mansion and Splash Mountain are examples).

One of the other things that people who don't use wheelchairs don't know is where people with wheelchairs go when they are taken out of the line. They assume those people who 'disappear' from the line are boarding right away, but that is not usually the case.
If they can't board at the regular boarding spot, they are pulled out of the line - usually just before the regular line gets to the boarding area (so they have already waited as long as everyone that got in the line the same time as they did).
For example, at Buzz Lightyear, the 'pull off point' is after you have gone thru the room with the large Buzz Lightyear, near the point where regular line is beginning to enter the actual boarding area. Guests with wheelchairs/ ECVs are pulled out of line at that point and sent to the exit - not to board right away, but to wait. If there are too many people with disabilities already on the attraction, you have to wait for some to get off (for fire safetly and evacuation reasons). Because our DD can't get out of her wheelchair easily, we have to wait extra for a special car that the wheelchair can be loaded on. We usually see the people who were right ahead of us in line getting off after riding while we are still waiting to board. In some rides, boarding at the accessible area means you miss part of the attraction; for example, at Haunted Mansion, you miss the entire 'stretching room' part of the attraction.

The Safari at AK is notorious for extra waits for people with disabilities. Our longest wait there was an EXTRA 40 minutes at a time when the regular line was walk on and Safari Trams were pulling out partially loaded because people were not walking up fast enough to fill them.

Spaceship Earth is a ride with a handicapped entrance, but during times when other passengers are able to walk right on, our wait is usually 20-30 minutes. From what I have seen, the boarding and unload area has not been changed in the rehab that is going on, so I see no reason to think this will change.

AK and the Studio were built with what are called 'Mainstream Lines'. These are lines where the regular line is wheelchair/ECV accessible and a person using a wheelchair or ECV waits in the same line with everyone else. MK and Epcot have been updated with Mainstream lines as attractions were added or renovated as much as possible.

Here's what it says in the official WDW Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities about Mainstream Lines and the list of attractions with Mainstream Queues:
As you can see, most of the lines are Mainstream Queues:

Magic Kingdom® Park
Ariel's Grotto
Astro Orbiter
Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin
Donald's Boat
Judge's Tent
Mickey's Country House
Mickey's PhilharMagic
Mike Fink Keelboats (seasonal)
Minnie's Country House
Pirates of the Caribbean
Space Mountain®
Splash Mountain®
Stitch's Great Escape!™
The Barnstormer at Goofy's Wiseacres Farm
"The Enchanted Tiki Room Under New Management"
The Hall of Presidents
The Magic Carpets of Aladdin
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
The Laugh Floor
Tomorrowland® Indy Speedway
Toontown Hall of Fame
Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress (seasonal)

Epcot®
FUTURE WORLD
Imagination!: All Attractions
Innoventions East
Innoventions West
Mission: SPACE
Test Track
The Living Seas: All Attractions
The Land: All Attractions (including Soarin')
Universe of Energy: "Ellen's Energy Adventure"

WORLD SHOWCASE
China: "Reflections of China"
France: "Impressions de France"
FriendShip Boats
Norway: Maelstrom
The American Adventure: "The American Adventure"

Disney-MGM Studios
Disney-MGM Studios Backlot Tour
Fantasmic!
Lights, Motors, Action!™ Extreme Stunt Show
Muppet*Vision 3D
Playhouse Disney - Live On Stage!
Rock 'n' Roller Coaster® Starring Aerosmith
Sounds Dangerous - Starring Drew Carey
Star Tours
The Great Movie Ride
The Magic of Disney Animation
"The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror™"
Voyage of the Little Mermaid
Walt Disney: One Man's Dream

Disney's Animal Kingdom® Theme Park
Caravan Stage: "Flights of Wonder"
DINOSAUR
Grandmother Willow's Grove: "Pocahontas and Her forest friends"
It's Tough To Be A Bug
Kali River Rapids
Expedition Everest
Kilimanjaro Safaris
Lion King Theater: "Festival of the Lion King"
Maharajah Jungle Trek
Primeval Whirl
Finding Nemo
The Boneyard
TriceraTop Spin


And, some attractions have limited number of spots for wheelchairs. We have already shown up for shows where there was still room for ambulatory people, but the wheelchair spots were already filled for that show and we had to wait for the next one. These are some we've had that problem with in the last 2 trips: Voyage of the Little Mermaid, where we had Fastpasses, but still had to wait for the next show
Tiki Birds, which we could not see on our last trip
ITTBAB, where the CMs were practically begging people to come into the queue because there was no wait in the standby line.
American Adventure

I'd invite anyone who thinks it's so easy and there is so much special treatment to spend a day using a wheelchair or ECV and then see what you think.
Or, you could follow us on our next trip. Be prepared for up to 45 minutes for a simple bathroom stop though. We usually have to wait for the handicapped stall or Companion Restroom and then I have to lift DD in and out of her wheelchair.

[OneLittleSpark]

OK, a couple of points I want to make:

:) It is ILLEGAL to ask for proof of disability to receive help that will mitigate a disability and therefore grant equal access. Full Stop. The End. No Ifs Ands or Buts. (The example of parking permits does not count as this provides more than equal access).

:) Segways pose a health threat due to their high speeds, unusual controls and high line of sight

:) Segways are not recognised mobility aids, nor do the manufacturers want them to be. Therefore Disney does not have to allow them into the parks

:) There are alternative products on the market that allow the user to 'stand'

:) It is not Disney's responsibility to design mobility aids, any more than it is to design cars. They may be wonderful, but they don't control the whole world (yet ;))


I'm sure nobody here is arguing against those who use Segways daily as mobility devices. The problem is, as soon as they are allowed into the parks, other people, who aren't familiar with the controls, may rent them to use in the parks. This would end up with hundreds of inexperienced drivers careening around the parks on devices they're still learning to drive!

If Disney were to start 'screening' people to see who should bring one in and who shouldn't, how would they do it? Would you want to be the Cast Member who had to decide if someone was 'disabled enough'?