18% being added to ALL dining checks

[mitros]

Just got an e-mail from the DDE {disney Dining Experience} and they {WDW} are now going to add an 18% tip to all checks, regardless of the number of guests in the party as of Jan. 1, 2008, at ALL food and beverage locations throughout the property. This has GOT to piss everyone off..........:scared1: :furious:

[G8RFAN]

When you say all.... you mean only TS right?

[Coach Rick]

I find it ironic. I had emailed Disney PR when they came up with the new policy for the DDP, and received a phone call to follow up with me from a CM. I complained about taking away the gratuity from the dining plan, and she said, they did it under pressure from guest surveys. I guess those surveys don't count on this decision. She had said that most guests felt that they wanted control over the gratuity, so that is why they took it off. I think I will write another email about this one and see what tap dance I get on this issue. I find this OUTRAGEOUS!

[mitros]

When you say all.... you mean only TS right?

Sorry, I'm not up on all of the abbreviations, what is TS?

[doctorhead]

TS means table service.

[mitros]

TS means table service.

Thanks for the heads-up. The last sentence of the E-mail stated: "Effective, January 1st, 2008, 18 percent gratuity will be added to all transactions, regardless of party size. Thank you for your continued support" It's not really clear to me if they mean only table service, but I'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow, {oh heck, maybe they are not there tomorrow} well then, Monday, to get more details.

[agnes!]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME :scared1: ?!? This has GOT to be one of the lamest ideas I have EVER heard of to come out of the suits at WDW. We ALWAYS tip well, usually above 18%. Well, NO MORE.

MAKE THE PHONE LINES BURN FOLKS! I mean, go ahead and be nice about it, more flies with honey than vinegar and all that, but honestly... The DDE and Annual Pass folks *still* haven't managed to get my e-mail in their system, so maybe that's why I haven't gotten this notice yet. Has anyone else gotten this notice?

Maybe the OP could post this over on the CB and the Restaurant Board. This idea, if carried out, will certainly cut down on wait-times at WDW restaurants, because NO ONE WILL BE EATING THERE.

agnes!

[crazy4wdw]

There's alot of conflicting information on different Disney discussoin boards regarding these changes. Some info indicates the 18% is only for DDE while others are reporting it applies to all table service meals irregardless of how the meal is paid for. It seems like the CM's are giving out different info regarding this change. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

[MassJester]

I would be outraged if this is true.

I am generous to a fault with servers, typically well over 20% of tthe total tab. But on the rare day when I receive particularly bad service, I feel well within my right to bring that percentage down as low as 5%.

I have sent very few sharply critical letters to Disney over the last 25 years, but this change would certainly garner one.
:sad2:

[crazy4wdw]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME Maybe the OP could post this over on the CB and the Restaurant Board. This idea, if carried out, will certainly cut down on wait-times at WDW restaurants, because NO ONE WILL BE EATING THERE.

agnes!

There are several extensive threads on this topic over on the restaurant board.

[agnes!]

I am glad that mitros posted this news here, because I wasn't aware of this until now.

agnes!

[C.Ann]

Well at least it won't have any impact on my trip in November..

There's nothing I despise more than someone else deciding what I should tip..:mad:

[ChrisFL]

MAKE THE PHONE LINES BURN FOLKS! I mean, go ahead and be nice about it, more flies with honey than vinegar and all that, but honestly... The DDE and Annual Pass folks *still* haven't managed to get my e-mail in their system, so maybe that's why I haven't gotten this notice yet. Has anyone else gotten this notice?

From the overall response I've seen on different message boards, I wouldnt be surprised if the phone lines were burning already

[manning]

I have had gratuity placed on checks and I have had them removed.

It got so bad at one place that I started to leave a 10% tip and when the waiter complained I told him to take it up with management as I don't like being told what to leave.

I don't know if other diners heard me or what. Several months later when I went back I got a check without a gratuity on it. I asked what happened and the server said everyone started complaining, removing the gratuity and leaving much less.

They must have lost a lot of business to change.

Needless to say that visit I left a generous tip.

[CanadianGuy]

----
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS NOT FROM DIS ADMIN NOR IS IT FROM THE PARENT SITE ... WDWINFO.COM. THIS INFO COMES FROM MY OWN PERSONAL CONTACTS IN WDW FOOD & BEVERAGE. MIGHT BE WRONG, MIGHT BE RIGHT. PROBABLY WON'T KNOW FOR SURE TILL MONDAY.

The information I'm getting from my Food & Beverage contacts has stressed this is FOR DDE CUSTOMERS AND PARTIES OF 6 OR MORE.

According to my sources -- which may or may not be 100% correct, but I'm betting they are, cuz they usually know this stuff --

This is for DDE customers and parties of six of more... ONLY

And does not affect DDP or credit/cash customers with no discount.

More news as events warrant. Film at 11. :)

Knox

[KYMickey]

If this mandatory 18% tipping is true I hope every one demands it be removed from their checks!

This will just give wait staff personnel another reason to provide less service. Without any incentive to get a tip they can provide whatever level of service they want to can still get a very good tip.

Another Point I find totally frustrating with tipping is the upward creep all the "acceptable" percentage to tip. The argument is that over time tips should rise in order to keep the income of the wait staff in line with the cost of living. This is already done by the fact that the cost of the meals continually increase faster than the cost of living.

Instead of adding on a mandatory tip they should just go to the European system of Service Compris if they want to give their wait staff a mandatory tip.

[MassJester]

I've had some time to refelct after my intial reaction to this. Since then I've learned, I think, that this only applies to DDE visitors--well that's a great reason not to take advantage of DDE as far as I'm concerned. This still seems to be a remarkably counter productive move.

[Barb]

We used to "tip" the equivilent of our 20% discount using the DDE. So now they tell me I only have to leave 18%. Goodie for me! :rolleyes: I know a lot of people did the same thing. So in simple terms, the servers will lose 2% of my tip now.

I suppose in the long run, they'll gain from the people who either under-tipped or didn't tip.

In the event of poor service, I will be talking to a manager and will not leave the mandatory 18%.

[Uncleromulus]

It's pretty clear now that this only applies to DDE members. As for the gratuity--I tip 20% anyway on the "original" menu price, so this won't really affect me one bit unless I happened to get very poor service.
And as Barb suggests, I suspect it will make up a bit for those who don't tip, under-tip (deliberately), or tip on the DDE discount meal price.

[G8RFAN]

I've never considered using the DDE so this is probably a non-event for us. I wonder.... who directly benefits from this change in policy? Management or Cast Members? Maybe it wasn't management who forced the issue on the DDE plan. As far as I understand it, doesn't it coincide with the changes in the Dining Plan also?

[Shellandscott]

The letter I received from DDE stated that it will be all table services. My email back to them is asking.
Does this apply to buffets? Which should not be 18%, it should be 10 or 15%.

And is this pre or post tax?

I do not see it being a big deal on most of the places. As stated above it now saves me at least 2% maybe more.

[KYMickey]

The cost is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that service in restaurants (at Disney and other places) has been in a constant state of decline in recent years in this will just encourage it. It used to be that waiters and waitresses were courteous and anxious to provide customers with good service, now days many of them make you feel like you're imposing on them when you ask for anything!

If a member of the wait staff is guaranteed an 18% tip there's not a whole lot of incentive for them to dry good service. A tip (or gratuity if you prefer) is supposed to be a payment (or reward) for service, if it's guaranteed any incentive to provide it is eliminated. Be it at Disney or elsewhere things need to be done to encourage servers to provide good service, not discourage it. I'm sure most of us have had incidents when dining with a large group (with a guaranteed gratuity) that service has been below what we expected, now they'll be a normal case for all dining experiences!:rolleyes1

[agnes!]

Anybody want to bet how hard it will be to get through to the DDE offices tomorrow? :lmao:

Btw, it is *my* understanding that the 18% service charge will be added to the dining receipts for ALL parties of 6 or more. NOT just to DDE checks, but to everyone who has 6 or more people in their dining group.

agnes!

[mitros]

Anybody want to bet how hard it will be to get through to the DDE offices tomorrow? :lmao:

Btw, it is *my* understanding that the 18% service charge will be added to the dining receipts for ALL parties of 6 or more. NOT just to DDE checks, but to everyone who has 6 or more people in their dining group.

agnes!

OK, what did I miss? I got 2 separate e-mails from the DDE and I did not see anything about parties of 6 or more.....what did I miss?

[TDC Nala]

OK, what did I miss? I got 2 separate e-mails from the DDE and I did not see anything about parties of 6 or more.....what did I miss?

You got emails from DDE. They're not going to mention parties of 6 or more specifically. If you're DDE, it doesn't matter how many people there are in your group, you will get the automatic gratuity as long as they're covered by that DDE card. For DDE's email to mention parties of 6 or more would further confuse the issue as far as use of DDE is concerned.

If you are NOT using DDE, the 2008 rule is going to be that all parties of 6 or more, whether on the DDP or not, will be assessed the automatic gratuity. (This is mentioned in the 2008 DDP brochure for the information of those on the DDP). The limit is currently parties of 8 or more, but for 2008 the party size is being reduced to 6.

[JeffH]

As soon as I got the emails (that seemed to clearly say EVERY check, not parties of 6 or more)...and I would not assume they mean parties of 6 or more since whenever they do mean parties of x or more it IS stated parties of x or more...I send a pretty cross reply questioning it's legality and stupidity and how it only lead to poor service and loud vocalizations by myself.

I too, normally tip over 20% (at the buffets), so this would actually be a "discount" for me, but I fear the loss of service which is one of the joys of eating at WDW (including Rainforest and PH, which both seem to understand the importance of the customer).

[TDC Nala]

As soon as I got the emails (that seemed to clearly say EVERY check, not parties of 6 or more)...and I would not assume they mean parties of 6 or more since whenever they do mean parties of x or more it IS stated parties of x or more...I send a pretty cross reply questioning it's legality and stupidity and how it only lead to poor service and loud vocalizations by myself.

I too, normally tip over 20% (at the buffets), so this would actually be a "discount" for me, but I fear the loss of service which is one of the joys of eating at WDW (including Rainforest and PH, which both seem to understand the importance of the customer).

The emails (sent only to DDE members) referred to EVERY check for DDE members in 2008 (and it applies only to the table service restaurants and the lounges, not counter service).

If you're NOT using DDE, and you are eating at a WDW table service restaurant, you will have the autograt added ONLY if you are a party of 6 or more (unless Disney announces a change to this anticipated policy between now and January 1).

[mitros]

You got emails from DDE. They're not going to mention parties of 6 or more specifically. If you're DDE, it doesn't matter how many people there are in your group, you will get the automatic gratuity as long as they're covered by that DDE card. For DDE's email to mention parties of 6 or more would further confuse the issue as far as use of DDE is concerned.

If you are NOT using DDE, the 2008 rule is going to be that all parties of 6 or more, whether on the DDP or not, will be assessed the automatic gratuity. (This is mentioned in the 2008 DDP brochure for the information of those on the DDP). The limit is currently parties of 8 or more, but for 2008 the party size is being reduced to 6.

Well, I hope that everyone that uses the DDE will now be pissed off sufficiently to get on the phone tomorrow, {no matter how long it takes} and let them know exactly how we feel. I'm getting on the phone first thing in the morning, and they WILL get an earful, rest assured of that!:furious:

[newmommie77]

What I don't like is that I am "requred" to tip 18% or talk to a manager to report bad service. I was a waitress and we typically tip 20% with the exception of bad service. Well, this last trip we had IMHO very bad service. We were at the playhouse disney lunch and just to name a few, my drink never came, she didnt clean the plates (we had a pile for 5 people), she never refilled the kids drinks and she cleaned our table when we were up dancing with JoJo (all of our stuff was still at the table...she took everyone else's drink and napkins and everything). Well we tipped her 12%. Now, if we were at Disney now, we would have had to call the manager over, waited for him to come and then subsequently discussed our issues with him, and wait for him to adjust our bill. This would have been more time and aggravation than I would want to deal with during our vacation. A tip should be a tip...not automatic.

When I was a waitress we offered free birthday dinners, and although we were an expensive place, a reservation for 2 in which one person was free, many people would only tip on the amount that was on their bill. Although the tip may look appropriate but a 20% tip on a $25 bill is very different than a tip on $50. I can see where Disney is coming from. They are trying to protect their employees, but a required 18% is ridiculous.

[Another Voice]

Going to WDW is beginning to feel like buying a used car.

There are so many "discounts", so many charges, so many rules, so many "but if you'd like this it will cost you more", so many secret codes, so many tricks just to get restaurant reservations that you can't help but either spend eight weeks doing research or getting the feeling you're being ripped-off some how.

Pretty soon WDW resturants will be just like an airliner - everyone in every seat will be paying a different price for the same thing.

[CanadianGuy]

Pretty soon WDW resturants will be just like an airliner - everyone in every seat will be paying a different price for the same thing.

You can unbuckle your seatbelt.. With DDE, DDP, Premium DDP, Platinum DDP, and the Wine & Dine add-on option ... and whatever else is so secret we don't even know about it.... I think we're arrived at the destination you mention.

"As we've arrived at our destination, please watch your step and lower your head as you disembark. If you forget to watch your step and lower your head, then watch your language and lower your voice. "

Knox

[honeymom]

In other countries, tip is usually included in the tab. When visitors from other countries come here, they often don't tip because they are so used to having it included. Often wait staff deliver top notch service only to not be tipped due to cultural differences. Since wait staff here depends on tips to make a living, they are often shortchanged if they work in places that cater to many foreign tourists.

I suspect that Disney had complaints from their staff about lack of tips that led to the new policy. I personally am not outraged by having them add an 18% tip on. If I really had service that wasn't worth that much (which I don't think happens all that often) I would ask to speak to a manager. I would think Disney management might want to know about any waitstaff problems anyway.

[KYMickey]

I agree that policy may have been implemented based on complaints from the servers about low tips. However I'm sure everyone who visits WDW has seen the overall decline in service, especially in the restaurants. This policy will just allow the deterioration to continue unchecked and will reward the servers for mediocre (at best) service. The deterioration can be seen elsewhere across the country but in my opinion is even worse at WDW that in most places.

The dining public expects and deserves good service and restaurants should do everything in their power to ensure their customers have a good experience.

[agnes!]

I just spoke to both the DDE office and to Disney Dining.

Yes, all DDE diners wil be assessed the 18% service charge, regardless of party size, but at Table Service locations that accept the DDE, not at the counter service locations.

The following was confirmed in the WDW ADR/PS system.

ALL DINING PARTIES OF SIX OR MORE will be assessed the 18% service charge starting January 1, 2008. This is a change from the previous service charge for parties of EIGHT or more.

This change is in the system, it is not rumors, it is not Internet speculation, it is now a fact. The Dine-Line CM I spoke to was surprised, her leads did not know about the change either.

agnes!

[CanadianGuy]

ALL DINING PARTIES OF SIX OR MORE will be assessed the 18% service charge starting January 1, 2008. This is a change from the previous service charge for parties of EIGHT or more.

This has been pretty much known since the 2008 Disney Dining Plan brochure came out about a month ago and indicated as much.

[doubletrouble_vb]

A 12% tip for poor service? I'd think the server would just think you were poor at math and really intended a 15% tip.

[agnes!]

This has been pretty much known since the 2008 Disney Dining Plan brochure came out about a month ago and indicated as much.

I did not know. The WDW CM I spoke to at the Dine-Line did not know, and her leads were unaware of it as well.

agnes!

[CanadianGuy]

Oh sorry.. it was rehashed pretty hard on some boards here a while back.. it was overshadowed by the removal of the 'included tip' in the DDP.

I would LOVE to see Disney just get rid of all these 'plans' and just sell the stuff for the prices on the menu.

Wow.. That'd almost be ... magical.

;)

Knox

[Luv2Roam]

This has been rehashed on so many threads already.
And like the other times I have posted, and the same with pp, we actually will be saving the 2% since we always just figured the 20% discount covered the tip.
We dine at WDW often and I do not agree the service has gone downhill or is poor.
If anything I notice the table service servers at WDW are better than most any other place we eat sit down.
IF I have an issue with the 18% then I will bring it to the manager's attention.
I agree that buffets should not have the 18% tip. I think that s going too far. But I have atendency to avoid buffets anyway. So still very little impact on us.

[manning]

I've had some time to refelct after my intial reaction to this. Since then I've learned, I think, that this only applies to DDE visitors--well that's a great reason not to take advantage of DDE as far as I'm concerned. This still seems to be a remarkably counter productive move.


Well, looks like things are going to be interesting when I'm down there in Jan.

I will be requesting the tip be removed and I will be applying the appropriate tip according to level of service!!!!

By the way what is the phone number to call if it is permitted to post here??

[KYMickey]

We dine at WDW often and I do not agree the service has gone downhill or is poor.
If anything I notice the table service servers at WDW are better than most any other place we eat sit down.

Luv, I'm sure you visit restaurants at WDW more than we do so maybe you're there too often to notice a declining. We go about once a year and the deterioration has become very obvious to us as we compare servers from year to year. It is not so obvious at the very high end restaurants such as Victoria and Albert's but is much more obvious at the midrange restaurants and those in Epcot. I used to agree with you on your comment about WDW servers being better than those at most other places but during our last few visits I don't think this is true. We live in Louisville Kentucky and while I still think service has deteriorated here, I don't think it has as much as it has at WDW. I don't know where you live so I can't comment for your situation.;)

[PrincessBride010103]

maybe i am biased but i am a bartender and unfortunately some people just do not know how to tip. you can give them 5star service and they will still leave you 10%. did u know that servers only get paid $3.65 per hour? did you know that servers also have to tip out to the bartender, bussers, food runners, hosts, etc. all of you are saying you tip way over 20% so exactly what is the big deal here?:confused3

[mitros]

maybe i am biased but i am a bartender and unfortunately some people just do not know how to tip. you can give them 5star service and they will still leave you 10%. did u know that servers only get paid $3.65 per hour? did you know that servers also have to tip out to the bartender, bussers, food runners, hosts, etc. all of you are saying you tip way over 20% so exactly what is the big deal here?:confused3

The "big deal" here is that we are being forced to give a specific amount for a tip.....regardless of the type of service we receive. We {my wife and I} almost always tip 20% for all food and drink services. We know that the regular hourly pay is not good for service folks. Having said that, there are a few occasions, and they are far and few between, where the service does literally stink. Yes, even at WDW. And we would like to tip accordingly. THAT is the big deal.....

[KYMickey]

all of you are saying you tip way over 20% so exactly what is the big deal here?:confused3

The big deal here is that we tip 20% because we appreciate the level of service we receive, not because it's required! On occasion I'd tip less than 20% (sometimes considerably less) if the service so dictates. Most servers now realize that their tip is based on the level of service and provide appropriate service. If they've received a mandatory 18% tip then they would have no incentive to provide an appropriate level of service!

A second point that I've heard from many people is the creep of expected tip from 15% to 18% or 20%. The argument is that the cost of living is rising so tips must, the fallacy of this is that menu prices rise as the cost of living does (in general even faster and at WDW a lot faster) so the tips also keep up with the cost of living.

[PrincessBride010103]

The big deal here is that we tip 20% because we appreciate the level of service we receive, not because it's required! On occasion I'd tip less than 20% (sometimes considerably less) if the service so dictates. Most servers now realize that their tip is based on the level of service and provide appropriate service. If they've received a mandatory 18% tip then they would have no incentive to provide an appropriate level of service!

A second point that I've heard from many people is the creep of expected tip from 15% to 18% or 20%. The argument is that the cost of living is rising so tips must, the fallacy of this is that menu prices rise as the cost of living does (in general even faster and at WDW a lot faster) so the tips also keep up with the cost of living.

I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but your reasoning makes no sense to me. You expect people who work in retail to help you when you need it right? well these people are guaranteed to make whatever it is that they make per hour and no one complains that since they are guaranteed to make their money that they wont provide friendly service. Being guaranteed to make 18% on each check would make would not make me neglect my bar guests or provide bad service, it would probably make me nicer and not assume in my head that im waiting on you hand and foot only to be left with a 10% tip.

As for your second point...yes the expected tip has increased to 18-20% because of tip outs, not cost of living. In my restaurant for example, the servers have to tip out 3% of their sales. No matter what you leave them. Therefore if you tip 15%, your server is only getting 12%. In some restaurants this tip out is higher. Just my opinion. And im sure if you receive bad service a manager will be happy to adjust your bill accordingly.

[CanadianGuy]

And im sure if you receive bad service a manager will be happy to adjust your bill accordingly.

This seems to be Disney's plan on this. If you're unhappy with the service, they'll remove the auto gratuity and allow you to leave whatever you like.

Since it happens rarely enough, this should be a good solution.

Knox

[PrincessBride010103]

This seems to be Disney's plan on this. If you're unhappy with the service, they'll remove the auto gratuity and allow you to leave whatever you like.

Since it happens rarely enough, this should be a good solution.

Knox

Agreed.

[KYMickey]

This seems to be Disney's plan on this. If you're unhappy with the service, they'll remove the auto gratuity and allow you to leave whatever you like.

Since it happens rarely enough, this should be a good solution.

Knox

This is good for this service staff ONLY! The majority of people will not dispute the gratuity that is automatically added to the bill no matter what the level of service is. Yes some of the more discerning customers may dispute the 18% charge if service is not up to par but in general if the fee is allowed to be implemented it will be paid and the level of service will continue to decline!

I know some people argue that the wait staff will not let the level of service declined but it's just basic human instinct that people won't do more than they can get away with.:rolleyes1

[manning]

This is what my aunt has to say.

She use to be a waitress.

Whenever we go out to dinner with her and she is paying she leaves a tip of between 10-15%

That always puzzled me so I asked why so low.

She smiled and said "I know how much a good waitress/waiter can/do make.":confused3

[manning]

The service staff will be mad at me when I leave the automatic 18% if they knew we always tipped 20% on the full bill before discount.

[PrincessBride010103]

The service staff will be mad at me when I leave the automatic 18% if they knew we always tipped 20% on the full bill before discount.

I don't understand why you would not still tip the 20%? You are always welcome to leave more than the automatic gratuity. Because Disney decided to add a gratuity you will now change the way you tip? It wasn't the staff's fault this change happened but you will "punish" them as a way of sticking it to disney? tsk tsk

[mitros]

This seems to be Disney's plan on this. If you're unhappy with the service, they'll remove the auto gratuity and allow you to leave whatever you like.

Since it happens rarely enough, this should be a good solution.

Knox

OK, the problem with that is, if I am unhappy with the service, I should not be forced to wait for a manager to come over and remove the auto tip amount so I can put what I want in. What am I supposed to do, say to the waitperson, "hey, your service sucked, you ignored our empty soda and water glasses, you were standing in the corner talking to your friend, and it took forever for our food to get here, etc., etc. Will you please call the manager over here so I can tell him you did not keep our drinks filled, you were talking to your fellow waiters and our food was late, etc., etc, and have him take the 18% tip off so I can give you a 10% tip? Is that what I have to do now instead of just leaving a smaller tip when the bill comes? :confused3

[PrincessBride010103]

I know some people argue that the wait staff will not let the level of service declined but it's just basic human instinct that people won't do more than they can get away with.:rolleyes1

Is that how you live your life? Only doing as little as you can get away with? Just wondering...:rolleyes1

[PrincessBride010103]

OK, the problem with that is, if I am unhappy with the service, I should not be forced to wait for a manager to come over and remove the auto tip amount so I can put what I want in. What am I supposed to do, say to the waitperson, "hey, your service sucked, you ignored our empty soda and water glasses, you were standing in the corner talking to your friend, and it took forever for our food to get here, etc., etc. Will you please call the manager over here so I can tell him you did not keep our drinks filled, you were talking to your fellow waiters and our food was late, etc., etc, and have him take the 18% tip off so I can give you a 10% tip? Is that what I have to do now instead of just leaving a smaller tip when the bill comes? :confused3

I dont think that entire speech will be necessary. Im sure a simple "can i speak to your manager?" will get the same result....

[PrincessBride010103]

im really not trying to piss you guys off...i just want you to see it from the other side...

[mitros]

I dont think that entire speech will be necessary. Im sure a simple "can i speak to your manager?" will get the same result....

OK, fine, but I still have to wait for the manager to come over, and then he has to make the adjustment, and as I said previously, I have to tell him why I called him over. What's easier is for me to simply leave the amount of tip I feel is deserved. Need to get out of the restaurant and back to the parks as quickly as possible ya' know? ;) And your not pissing anyone off, {not me, anyway} I'm just trying to get myself understood about simply being able to tip what I feel is deserved. I have friends who are on the other side, {waitpersons} and I do understand the situation........:)

[KYMickey]

Is that how you live your life? Only doing as little as you can get away with? Just wondering...:rolleyes1

Certainly not, but I don't work in the service industry and it's certainly how I feel that a lot of service personnel operate. Most of them will do anything not to go out of their way to provide better service. I know that there are exceptions to this (and maybe you're one of them) but in general from my experience the majority of servers in anything but extreme high end restaurants don't expend any more effort than necessary!

[KYMickey]

im really not trying to piss you guys off...i just want you to see it from the other side...

You're not pissing me off a bit. As I stated above (where I guessed you worked as a server) that hopefully you're one of the exceptions and that's why you don't see our side.

Good servers certainly deserve a good tip for their hard work and actually I think this policy will reduce good servers tips. Since customers are forced into leaving 18% many will believe that that's the appropriate amount and not leave any more. It's kind of like unions where they strive for mediocrity protecting the nonperformers and not rewarding the high performers!:cool2:

[Keyser]

I don't understand why you would not still tip the 20%? You are always welcome to leave more than the automatic gratuity. Because Disney decided to add a gratuity you will now change the way you tip? It wasn't the staff's fault this change happened but you will "punish" them as a way of sticking it to disney? tsk tsk

I can't understand why people would tip more than the default (18% or whatever), if it is automatically added to the bill. If I'm not able to give a lower amount, why should I give a higher amount?

There's no "punishment" of the waitstaff. They'll lose out on the extra money they can earn from some customers, in exchange for ensuring they get more from others. It seems what you're proposing is that all waitstaff should get everything they used to, plus pull in more money from those who didn't want to tip as much.

I don't have a problem with restaurants moving to a "pay waitstaff a decent salary but don't allow tips" (which is what the automatic "gratuity" is leading to) - there would be some nice aspects to that from both the customer and waitstaff sides. I know it is convenient for me when the gratuity is automatic (as the dining plan used to be), and I wish they'd just include it in the price of the food (along with tax) so that planning would be easier. But, most waitstaff I've talked to don't like this - they would rather have the opportunity to earn much more through tips. Most people agree that the chance to earn extra money can be a motivator for better service. The chance to lose money for poor service can also be a motivator to not give bad service. That's why people don't like the automatic gratuity.

I dont think that entire speech will be necessary. Im sure a simple "can i speak to your manager?" will get the same result....

You say that it should be easy to talk to a manager to have the tip lowered. This is a significant hassle, wasting the customer's time and energy, especially if you're interested in leaving only a somewhat lower tip. Really, how many people are going to go to the hassle of calling a manager over to say "I want to leave only a 15% tip instead of 18%". If I had really really bad service, where I was interested in leaving no tip, I would talk to a manager, just like I would talk to a manager at any store where I was being charged for something I didn't receive.

What if the situation was reversed? What if people were given the option of lowering their tip from 18% without difficulty, but had to talk to a manager if they wanted to leave an additional tip? I'm guessing the idea of talking to a manager wouldn't seem as trivial.

[PrincessBride010103]

You're not pissing me off a bit. As I stated above (where I guessed you worked as a server) that hopefully you're one of the exceptions and that's why you don't see our side.

Good servers certainly deserve a good tip for their hard work and actually I think this policy will reduce good servers tips. Since customers are forced into leaving 18% many will believe that that's the appropriate amount and not leave any more. It's kind of like unions where they strive for mediocrity protecting the nonperformers and not rewarding the high performers!:cool2:


I am not a server anymore, im a bartender...which generally means that my guests leave drunk and happy and tip me well :lmao: so this 18% thing really doesnt apply here to me BUT i did used to be a server and it is quite possibly the worst job ever.

I've figureed out the reason why you dont understand the auto gratuity...since you already tip well you dont understand why someone needs to tell you how much to tip. The problem is not folks like you who will tip well if the service is good and adjust accordingly if it is not. The problem is that some people come in, demand only the best service, will run you around for an hour while they ask you for one thing at a time, tell you that you are the most awesome server ever, then leave you $5.00 on a $60.00 check and think that they really took care of you. and that is sooooo frustrating!!

[G8RFAN]

I see this as a positive. If a CM/server is bad and you leave a small tip, there is a chance if they don't have to share their tips with busboys, bartenders or barbacks and that the message ends there. If a manager is constantly removing the gratuity off the bill, the message will be clear that this is a CM that either needs corrective training or be removed from that role. The negative is the extrax effort as mentioned by the customer and that there will be people that may not realize that gratuity is included and still tip. I've actually seen waitstaff in Europe confuse tourists with table fees and service fees and getting double the tips.

[mitros]

I am not a server anymore, im a bartender...which generally means that my guests leave drunk and happy and tip me well :lmao: so this 18% thing really doesnt apply here to me BUT i did used to be a server and it is quite possibly the worst job ever.

I've figureed out the reason why you dont understand the auto gratuity...since you already tip well you dont understand why someone needs to tell you how much to tip. The problem is not folks like you who will tip well if the service is good and adjust accordingly if it is not. The problem is that some people come in, demand only the best service, will run you around for an hour while they ask you for one thing at a time, tell you that you are the most awesome server ever, then leave you $5.00 on a $60.00 check and think that they really took care of you. and that is sooooo frustrating!!

Oh yea, people like that, you would just like to break a bottle of cheap wine over their head.........I know I would.

[PrincessBride010103]

Oh yea, people like that, you would just like to break a bottle of cheap wine over their head.........I know I would.

:rotfl: that doesnt sound like a bad idea.....

[manning]

someone stated waitstaff isn't happy with the mandatory 18%.

I wonder why?

Well could it be that now there is an audit trail? The establishment now has to break out the tip and document where it went to the IRS.

The waitstaff now has a peice of paper that has to be attached to that 1040 meaning they now have to report it.

Under the old system the waitstaff is able to under report their tips. Cash is king here, no paper trail. They report all that is left on a credit card and some left as cash.

[PrincessBride010103]

someone stated waitstaff isn't happy with the mandatory 18%.

I wonder why?

Well could it be that now there is an audit trail? The establishment now has to break out the tip and document where it went to the IRS.

The waitstaff now has a peice of paper that has to be attached to that 1040 meaning they now have to report it.

Under the old system the waitstaff is able to under report their tips. Cash is king here, no paper trail. They report all that is left on a credit card and some left as cash.


im surprised i didnt think of this myself....yeah..that sucks

[CanadianGuy]

someone stated waitstaff isn't happy with the mandatory 18%.

I wonder why?

Well could it be that now there is an audit trail? The establishment now has to break out the tip and document where it went to the IRS.

The waitstaff now has a peice of paper that has to be attached to that 1040 meaning they now have to report it.

Under the old system the waitstaff is able to under report their tips. Cash is king here, no paper trail. They report all that is left on a credit card and some left as cash.

Again this is only for limited numbers of DDE diners and parties of 6 or more..

I'm told that the IRS has nothing to with server's unhappiness since the vast majority of customers at Disney are not cash diners or cash tippers, the tips are ALREADY recorded in the system for those using Credit Cards or room-chargeback. These comprise a surprisingly high percentage of the total number of dining transactions at Disney; and an even higher percentage of DDE transactions.

In other words, the paper trail is already there for the vast majority of transactions.

The reason they are not happy (as I'm told) is
- DDE diners are generally Florida Residents and AP holders (and good tippers I'm told)
- Those two categories are generally residents of the USA and understand North American tipping customs
- The servers believe they would have received more than 18 % from those customers in most circumstances but, now many DDE diners will leave well enough alone and just tip the 18 % now with no additional.

Frankly, the DDE numbers are such a small fraction of the whole ... it's really not going to amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day.

There is far more drama on these message boards about this than there ever will be in real life.

Knox

[bord1niowa]

As far as people only doing as little as necessary.... In the manufacturing sector, a non union shop, (if not on a automatic system which requires a certain speed at which to work) generally has an efficiency of about 85%. We allow extra for breaks, taking it easier etc. A union shop, which has no fear of losing their job, hence has an efficiency of about 60% in the same situation. So yes, people do try to do as little as is necessary in their jobs if they have no fear of losing their job or pay. My guess is the service will drop too in the sevice area. Keep in mind these are only averages and yes I agree there are some that will take pride in their work.

[Luv2Roam]

Back to the thread. :lmao:

KYMickey -- I live near WDW, and have for four years. Prior to that we would vacation here every chance we got since early 2001 (I think). So compared to some guests we are WDW newcomers. But we are no newbies either.
We eat at a variety of restaurants, Disney and non.
By far I feel comfortable with getting the best service at WDW than most local and chain restaurants. We have had some pretty lousy service at chains you would not think of having crappy service and food.
I just always figure if a server is bad anywhere, chances are they won't be there for long.
There has only been a few WDW restaurants I could name off where the service was sub par from personal experience, and we have not returned. And most of those times were even with the person at the podium, and not the server.
Counter service I think is real toss up. But that can be said about any fast food walk up service.
So when comparing a few times sub par sit down dining experiences over numerous enjoyable ones, I say the odds are in the guest's favor at WDW. :thumbsup2
I cannot say these last 6 years I have noticed a change. Those who have been going for years might. :confused3 But is it really missing touches such as Mickey butter, or servers?

And I want to give a thanks to servers everywhere. :cheer2:

[LovinOKW]

So, talked to a server on Saturday the 24th. We were paying our bill at Olivia's when we handed over the DDE card and the server said "Oh, the best discount card on property" and I said, "Yes, until January anyways, hehehe" This led to a bit of a discussion. He stated that the 18% mandatory add on was pushed for by the waitstaffs at Hoop-De-Doo, Luau, Backyard BBQ. I didn't really understand this because gratuity is already included in these. He said he personally was not in favor of it. I said no kidding because now that it's automatic, it's also automatic on your W-2 or 1099 whatever they receive. I think they kind of shot themselves in the foot with this one. What I still don't understand though is why only DDE? This should just be done property wide -period - or not at all. Why single out one group? (I know cast member card is included, too) I cannot believe that the majority of people who eat TS are DDE card holders. When I called DDE, I got the standard run around, but the CM did state that it was DDE to bring it in line with other discount programs that are offered and when I questioned what other programs she was referring to, she told me to e-mail exec offices because this is where it came from. So, if it has something to do with the discount programs, does this mean we can expect to see an auto gratuity added when using the AP or DVC dining discounts?

[manning]

I sent an e-mail to Disney with no response over a week ago.

I guess my course of action will be when we sit down for dinner is to tell the server to not present a bill with the gratuity on it and I will tip according to service. Also will advise that if a gratuity does appear the tip,if any, will be substantially reduced.

Why??

I don't like to be told what tip I must leave, if any.

Also, some will think I'm mean and so be it, I may make the outstanding tip 15% on the discounted amount. We usually tipped 20% on the full amount.

Again, I don't like to be told what to tip !!!!!!!

[crazy4wdw]

I sent an e-mail to Disney with no response over a week ago.

Don't hold you breath on this one! I also e-mailed WDW about this change and somone from the executive offices left a voice message at my house saying that they appreciated my concerns and they would be shared with appropriate staff - that was it!:rolleyes1

[agnes!]

Again this is only for limited numbers of DDE diners and parties of 6 or more..

[The reason they are not happy (as I'm told) is
- DDE diners are generally Florida Residents and AP holders (and good tippers I'm told)
- Those two categories are generally residents of the USA and understand North American tipping customs
- The servers believe they would have received more than 18 % from those customers in most circumstances but, now many DDE diners will leave well enough alone and just tip the 18 % now with no additional.

Frankly, the DDE numbers are such a small fraction of the whole ... it's really not going to amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day.

There is far more drama on these message boards about this than there ever will be in real life.

Knox

Ok. Everyone who will have five or less people in your dining parties in 2008? Stand up and cheer. Everyone who will have 6 or more people in your dining party...you'll be in the same boat as the DDE. Welcome aboard :cool2: .

I think there might be a LOT of drama in 2008 when families & parties of 6 or more will be charged the mandatory Service Charge, when they didn't know it in advance. Not everyone who goes to WDW frequents message boards like this. People WON'T know and they'll probably be unpleasantly surprised.

Oh, and I'm sure the mandatory Holiday surcharges at the buffets and all-you-can-eat pre-plated WDW TS locations will have all the diners *thrilled* as well...sounds like funfunfun for the poor servers all around.

agnes!

[raidermatt]

I see this as a positive. If a CM/server is bad and you leave a small tip, there is a chance if they don't have to share their tips with busboys, bartenders or barbacks and that the message ends there. If a manager is constantly removing the gratuity off the bill, the message will be clear that this is a CM that either needs corrective training or be removed from that role. The negative is the extrax effort as mentioned by the customer and that there will be people that may not realize that gratuity is included and still tip. I've actually seen waitstaff in Europe confuse tourists with table fees and service fees and getting double the tips.


I think that's over-complicating the situation. Bottom line is that the tip is a way to reward, and more to the point, encourage good service. Removing the ability of the customer to reduce the tip below what is normally considered an average or above average tip undermines the entire purpose of the tip in the first place.

It is no longer a tip and is merely a service charge.

That said, I don't have a HUGE problem with this since I understand there are some who probably don't tip on the 20% discount. But I think that is more than made up for by those who tip more than 18%.

It does remove the incentive for good service if the waitstaff know you are using the DDE, but that is easily resolved by not presenting the DDE card until the end of the meal.

Whatever the reasoning, it is completely opposite of what will be done with the DDP next year (no tip included), so there clearly is no cohesive strategy in place at WDW when it comes to this topic.

Frankly, the DDE numbers are such a small fraction of the whole ... it's really not going to amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day.
I wonder about that though. Certainly DDE is a small percentage of diners, but they are also probably the most frequent diners as well. They are all Florida residents and/or AP holders. Also, the policy is includes ALL parties of 6 or more. Taken together, I'm sure that's a significant % of the total diners.

[KYMickey]

As far as people only doing as little as necessary.... In the manufacturing sector, a non union shop, (if not on a automatic system which requires a certain speed at which to work) generally has an efficiency of about 85%. We allow extra for breaks, taking it easier etc. A union shop, which has no fear of losing their job, hence has an efficiency of about 60% in the same situation. So yes, people do try to do as little as is necessary in their jobs if they have no fear of losing their job or pay. My guess is the service will drop too in the sevice area. Keep in mind these are only averages and yes I agree there are some that will take pride in their work.

Other than being a good example of why unions are not good for America, your example demonstrates my feelings exactly. If they are guaranteed an 18% gratuity (in this case I use the word gratuity lightly) a large portion of the wait staff will do the least they can get away with and the level of service will decline farther.:sad1:

[CanadianGuy]

For the record, this policy was in place BEFORE this announcement for parties of 8 or more. Yes, a significant change that affects far more parties, but everyone acts like it wasn't in place before.

I personally think Disney is just trying to kill the DDE program. And this is a good step in the direction to accomplish that probably.

Knox

[crazy4wdw]

I personally think Disney is just trying to kill the DDE program. And this is a good step in the direction to accomplish that probably.

I agree. They started the same type of process with Magic Kingdom Club. Over several years, the number and type of discounts were cut, they changed the cancellation policy for resort refunds from 5 to 21 days (or was it 30?), and ticket discounts were only availalbe through by mail, not the parks. Eventually MKC was axed. There may be no need for DDE anymore with the most of restuarants booked solid becasue of the DDP.

[marc]

No doubt our service will suffer.

Official Brochure

Click here to open the 2008 Magic Your Way Dining Plan (http://adisneyworld.disney.go.com/media/wdw/images2003/languagespecific/eng/nontheme/tickets/08Dining.pdf) brochure.

[agnes!]

Is the 2008 DDE brochure available yet? Any other confirmed changes in the works that folks know about?

Yeah, I'm with the posters who think that Disney is going to kill DDE... either through neglect/incompetence or through actual planning, *just* like what happened to the Magic Kingdom Club.

Hey, does anybody else think that there is going to be a lot more ressies/dining parties for 5 or less? Folks will split up their tables to get under the mandatory Service Charge. Too much trouble for me, but you just *know* some dining customers will be doing that.

agnes!

[mitros]

I agree. They started the same type of process with Magic Kingdom Club. Over several years, the number and type of discounts were cut, they changed the cancellation policy for resort refunds from 5 to 21 days (or was it 30?), and ticket discounts were only availalbe through by mail, not the parks. Eventually MKC was axed. There may be no need for DDE anymore with the most of restuarants booked solid becasue of the DDP.

OMG, that's right! They did eliminate the MKC in that way. Sons of b..........!:mad: :furious:

[Chuck S]

I don't think service will necessarily suffer, at least for DDE. We rarely have a party of 6 or larger, and they have no way of knowing you are DDE until you present your card after the meal.

And since I added the 20% discount back in as the tip, I may save a buck or two.

[Bellamickey]

I agree as well. I think the service is going to be a big change to what we are used to with Disney.
Will see how it goes on our upcoming trip......

[crazy4wdw]

From my dining experience last week, it appears that WDW is getting ready for the 18% mandatory gratuity for DDE members. For almost every table service restuarant that I had ressies for last week, I was asked at check-in if I had the DDP or DDE. I noticed that on the computer montior, the CM selected "DDE" on my reservation. The wait staff confimred prior to taking my order that I had the DDE and requested my card in advance so the servers are going to know prior to waiting on you that you have the DDE and they will be receiving an 18% gratuity. The only dining location that this did not occur was at Beaches & Cream which does not accept ADR's.

[manning]

I guess when I'm there in Jan I will have to advise them not to add the gratuity. I will leave the appropriate tip based upon service.

If they refuse, there are plenty of nice places off site!!!!!

[Tigger1]

Good idea Manning. Its not a tip if you are told to pay a certain %. Maybe Disney needs to rethink this new policy. Why not just raise their prices, pay the waiters more and have a no tipping policy.

[mitros]

From my dining experience last week, it appears that WDW is getting ready for the 18% mandatory gratuity for DDE members. For almost every table service restuarant that I had ressies for last week, I was asked at check-in if I had the DDP or DDE. I noticed that on the computer montior, the CM selected "DDE" on my reservation. The wait staff confimred prior to taking my order that I had the DDE and requested my card in advance so the servers are going to know prior to waiting on you that you have the DDE and they will be receiving an 18% gratuity. The only dining location that this did not occur was at Beaches & Cream which does not accept ADR's.

Wow, that's odd. We just got back, and used our card 7 times at various eateries.Never once were we asked for our card until after the bill came.

[Uncleromulus]

Same with us. We just got back and only once (at California grill) were we asked anything about DDE. We just gave our card at the end of the meal and the adjustment was made.

[crazy4wdw]

Wow, that's odd. We just got back, and used our card 7 times at various eateries.Never once were we asked for our card until after the bill came.

Wonder why the difference? I ate at Chef Mickey's, Concourse Steakhouse, Le Cellier, Cape May Cafe, Rose & Crown, and the new Donald Duck breakfast at AK (Tusker House). Each time, I was asked before I was seated if was on DDP or had the DDE. I noticed at Le Cellier that the CM who was checking me in highlighted DDE on the computer screen. At most of these restaurants, the server said something like "I understand you are have the DDE discount" when they came to the table to take the order. I will have to say that the service I received from the wait staff was very good.

[sarcasticblonde]

I'm sorry, but after reading most of the responses on the first two pages, I have to say that I am just flabberghasted.



Most people in this country do not seem to understand that servers make well below minimum wage - at least in my state of Illinois...I'm not 100% sure what WDW/Florida pays their servers who are tipped employees. So this will be a gripe towards people tipping in WDW and just tipping in general.

This is just my opinion based on my own personal experiences. My DF and I have both worked in high end restaurants where almost 95% of our salary came from our tips...customers literally hold your life in their hands. They can leave you a tip based on your service or they be complete a-holes and stiff you because they feel like it. The people you wait on make and break you. They decide whether you can afford to pay your car insurance or your electric bill on time that month.

I have had people that I have given phenomenal service to leave me 10%. When I made 10% from a table, I basically received 0% of it. Reason? Servers help pay their support staffs' salary. They are responsible for tipping out their bussers, food runners, bartenders and sommeliers a percentage of their overall sales...not their overall tips. So if a server only receives 12% tips all night, they still have to tip out as though they received 20% tips.

You all seem to think that 18% is a ghastly amount to HAVE to pay a server. Wow...I would hate to have to serve you at my restaurant. 20% is the norm. I'm sorry, but it is. Granted, I don't work at a table service restaurant in Disney World, but still. 18%, to me, is what you would give to someone who did an okay job. 20% or more is what you give to someone who did an outstanding job.

So, the number one gripe that I have read is that people don't like to have their tip chosen for them. Well, you're not completely having your tip chosen for you. If you want to leave more, you can absolutely leave that extra 2% tip on top of the 18. If you think you had bad service, ask yourself these questions BEFORE you harass a manager about taking the added grat off:

"Am I holding this server to a higher standard because I am in Disney World and therefore assume that all employees of WDW are infallible?"

"Was my server running his/her butt off because they were swamped with tables - possibly due to be low staffed?"

"Was I being ridiculously picky because I make 15 modifications to an entree choice instead of just ordering it the way the chef designed it?"

My overall point is this. Most servers would work their butts off for 20% and I have a hunch that some people on here don't like the added 18% because they are cheapskates who don't want to tip that much. Yes, I know that there are those that are offended because they would tip MORE than 18%. But you have to assume that there are PLENTY of people at Disney World that have stiffed servers. Also, there are many, many foreign people who, in their country, are not required or expected to tip, so they don't tip in America where it's part of a server's salary. It really comes down to that old adage...one bad apple spoils the bunch.

[Another Voice]

So what you're saying is that Disney underpays their service staff and it is my obligation - as a guest - to pay you an additional salary in addition to the one that you agreed with when you took the job. My only choice is the ability to leave you an extra 2%? And that I am to ignore all other problems with the service (which I am paying for) because you might be swamped or understaffed or that everything is really my fault anyway?

Gee - it's customer service thinking like that has has made the airline industry to joy it is today. I'm sure you'll do wonders to to make WDW people's favorite place to dine.

My obligation to pay Disney's staff is in the price of the admission ticket, in the cost of my hotel room - and in the bill presented at the end of the meal. A tip has traditionally been an extra amount added onto the bill to reward the server for their efforts. If Disney is going to pass the costs of running their dining facilities on to me - then they should call it a fixed "service charge" and let me decide the rest. What Disney has done is dishonest to both the guests and to the service cast members.

[sarcasticblonde]

So what you're saying is that Disney underpays their service staff and it is my obligation - as a guest - to pay you an additional salary in addition to the one that you agreed with when you took the job. My only choice is the ability to leave you an extra 2%? And that I am to ignore all other problems with the service (which I am paying for) because you might be swamped or understaffed or that everything is really my fault anyway?

Gee - it's customer service thinking like that has has made the airline industry to joy it is today. I'm sure you'll do wonders to to make WDW people's favorite place to dine.

My obligation to pay Disney's staff is in the price of the admission ticket, in the cost of my hotel room - and in the bill presented at the end of the meal. A tip has traditionally been an extra amount added onto the bill to reward the server for their efforts. If Disney is going to pass the costs of running their dining facilities on to me - then they should call it a fixed "service charge" and let me decide the rest. What Disney has done is dishonest to both the guests and to the service cast members.

You aren't understanding what I am saying.

ALL servers - to my knowledge - make "server's minimum wage"...somewhere in the $4 range. The rest of their salary is made up from tips. Employers know that servers get tips, therefore they make less on the hour. It's funny that you say it's not your "obligation" to pay a server's salary. Isn't that server waiting on you hand and foot and getting you refill after refill or possibly cleaning up your child's soda spill or the enormous mess they make with their food? That is what you are paying for. Yes...some servers suck at their job. Then you can tip them less by getting a manager to remove the added grat. But as I said in my original post, one needs to ask themselves why they didn't get amazing service. If you truly got bad service - and aren't just a cheapskate who would normally only leave 10% anywhere - then you can tip less.

You guys act like servers will give you crappy service because they are getting a guaranteed 18%. I don't know about them, but I know that I will work my butt of to get that extra 2%. And I'd assume most WDW servers would too.

[crazy4wdw]

I'm sorry, but after reading most of the responses on the first two pages, I have to say that I am just flabberghasted.

Most people in this country do not seem to understand that servers make well below minimum wage - at least in my state of Illinois...I'm not 100% sure what WDW/Florida pays their servers who are tipped employees. So this will be a gripe towards people tipping in WDW and just tipping in general.

I have no problem tipping for good service at restaurants and I typically give 20% (or more) if I feel the service I receive warrants it. My problem with Disney's decision is that they are taking away my ability to tip for the service I receive - that should be my decision, not WDW's. My other concern with this policy change is I personally don't think wait staff at buffet type restuarnts deserve an 18% tip. They're only bringing drinks to the table, I'm doing the rest of the work. I will say that for the most part, I did receive excellent service at the restuarnts I dined at about two weeks ago even with servers knowing I had the DDE.

[DisneyKidds]

If Disney is going to pass the costs of running their dining facilities on to me - then they should call it a fixed "service charge" and let me decide the rest.
Now, now AV, you aren't exactly playing fair, as this really isn't the case......and you know it. Disney hasn't lowered the hourly wage in conjunction with this change. Disney isn't asking you to supplement service staff salaries any more than the Del Coronado or any other resort is.....and you know it. Fact of the matter is that those people who work in tipped positions anywhere in the country, at any restaurant, in any state, get paid, in accordance with labor laws, an hourly wage that falls well below minimum wage. Disney didn't invent that. Disney didn't establish the fact that tips make up the lion's share of such employee's income. So don't turn this into something it isn't......Disney paying unusually low hourly wages and expecting you to make up the difference.

This doesn't appear to be a universal change. Just about every restaurant in the country charges an automatic gratuity on large parties, so this isn't a Disney invention. I would imagine that the primary reason this change is being added to bills that include a discount (DDE) is that servers often do get short changed in such circumstances. People really should tip on the pre-discount amount of food, but often don't.

So it seems that this change is really aimed at protecting the service staff in those instances, not absolving Disney of their responsibility to pay prevailing wages.

Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so upset by this. You still have a choice and control. The server provided sub-standard service, demand that the 18% gratuity be removed and tip accordingly. You want to leave more, no one is stopping you. A system like this could actually lead to better service. There are rare occasions where I'll leave less than a 15 - 18% tip because of bad service. Sometime I'll make a comment to the server, sometimes I'll write a comment on the check.....but management likely never knows. If a server is constantly having thier checks adjusted to remove the automatic gratuity due to poor service, management will know, and that server will probably HAVE to improve, or else.

So I don't see this as being the issue you are making it out to be, nor am I making excuses for Disney. Tips as a primary source of income for wait staff is just a fact of life...everywhere. If certain discount programs were leading to employees earning less than thay rightly should, I can see Disney taking steps to rectify the situation. It isn't to Disney's benefit, it helps the servers, so I fail to see how you can turn this into a "Disney is taking you for a ride" situation on this one.

[Another Voice]

So I don't see this as being the issue you are making it out to be, nor am I making excuses for Disney.
Becasue once again Disney is lying to all of us about yet another "cost savings" measure they're making.

I have no problem with paying for service. Most of Europe and the rest of the world works like that. I go into a place and I pay a "service charge" - sometimes there are even different levels depending if I'm sitting outside, sitting a booth, or just going up to a bar. I trust that I will receive good service (except in France of course), but what I get is what I get and I accept it.

Again - if Disney wanted to go this route I have no problem with it.

But in the United States it's been common practice that a tip is an optional item decided by the patron. It has been optional because of the idea that exception service will be rewarded by the patron, poor service will be less rewarded - depending on the patron's point of view.

Now if, over the years, the Disney and the entire food industry has abused this concept - that's an entirely different problem.

But Disney didn't address it - they took my option and made it mandatory to offset the fact they refuse to pay a decent wage. My ability to influence the level of service I recieve has been completely eliminated - unless I want to complain to the management.

There are many ways Disney could have solved this problem - like raising food prices & upping salaries. But instead they wessled and spun like a cheap hack presidental candiadate. Just for once it would be nice for Disney to be honest about something.

If they're going to change the rule - the tell us you're changing the rules. If Disney no longer cares about my ability to reward for good service - fine. Tell me that my opinion no longer matters and remove my ability to tip. At the same time my standards for Disney service is now going to soar. If I'm being forced to pay for service - then I damn well expect service.

Dining is going to be like any other transaction.

[DancingBear]

Just about every restaurant in the country charges an automatic gratuity on large parties, so this isn't a Disney invention.I don't know of any other place that does this for parties of 6, as Disney is now doing. Nice that this is where Disney choses to lead the way.

Frankly, I don't see why everyone is so upset by this. You still have a choice and control. The server provided sub-standard service, demand that the 18% gratuity be removed and tip accordingly.Except that choice now involves finding a manager and getting them to take it off, and being inherently more confrontational than I have to be when I write down a 10% tip on the credit card receipt and leave.

[ChrisFL]

I don't know of any other place that does this for parties of 6, as Disney is now doing. Nice that this is where Disney choses to lead the way.

Except that choice now involves finding a manager and getting them to take it off, and being inherently more confrontational than I have to be when I write down a 10% tip on the credit card receipt and leave.

Not to mention that if every 3rd or 4th party insists on seeing a manager to have the 18% changed that will cause chaos in these places!

BTW, if you're saying you don't know of any places that automatically add 18% tip for parties of 6 or more, I see it everywhere here. BUT I've only seen it once for ANY size party, and I've never been back to that place.

[Shellandscott]

This may also have to do with wage and hour. Another thing to consider.
One of the biggest advantages to being a server or a bar tender is that you only pay taxes on a small portion of your tips. Typically the ones that are on a charge card. Cash as with most businesses can go directly in your pocket. So the servers look like they make less. If now the tip is part of the check, I would hope the servers are claiming 100% of their tips on their income taxes. This also gives Disney a better feel with what their employees are actually making.

[Sandus]

This is my first post, and I'm sorry it has to be so contentious, but this is a very personal topic to me. Sorry in advance for the length.

Except that choice now involves finding a manager and getting them to take it off, and being inherently more confrontational than I have to be when I write down a 10% tip on the credit card receipt and leave.

This is precisely the point. If your service was bad enough to merit a tip of HALF what the server is working for, then you should have no qualms about making a complaint to management. If you feel too embarrassed to voice your displeasure and subsequent intent to tip HALF what the server is working for, then perhaps you realize that your tip is insufficient.

Becasue once again Disney is lying to all of us about yet another "cost savings" measure they're making.
What you view as a "cost savings" measure happens to be standard practice throughout the United States. If you want to avoid paying the bulk of a server's income via gratuity, stop dining out.

I have no problem with paying for service. Most of Europe and the rest of the world works like that. I go into a place and I pay a "service charge" - sometimes there are even different levels depending if I'm sitting outside, sitting a booth, or just going up to a bar. I trust that I will receive good service (except in France of course), but what I get is what I get and I accept it.
I've highlighted the first sentence because I believe it to be untrue. If you had no problem paying for service, then an automatic gratuity would be a non-issue. If you pay a service charge (which is exactly what the gratuity is) and have no expectations of lesser service, why should a Disney restaurant be any different, particularly when you are saving money through use of the dining plan anyway?

But in the United States it's been common practice that a tip is an optional item decided by the patron. It has been optional because of the idea that exception service will be rewarded by the patron, poor service will be less rewarded - depending on the patron's point of view.

Now if, over the years, the Disney and the entire food industry has abused this concept - that's an entirely different problem.
I think your view is very skewed here. Tipping has not been optional in a very long time. Replace the word "abused" with "evolved" and you have the truth of the matter. Restaurants discovered that they can spend more money on their product and less on their labor if they allow the patron to assume the majority of the server's wages.

My ability to influence the level of service I recieve has been completely eliminated - unless I want to complain to the management.
I will clue you in on something that anybody who's ever worked in the restaurant business knows for a fact: your tip has absolutely no bearing on the service you receive. Every server works with the expectation that he or she will be receiving 18-20% on the TOTAL CHECK at the conclusion of the dining experience. The only time your tip directly affects your service is if you return and that server remembers the poor tip you gave. Then you can probably expect even worse service, because they don't expect to be rewarded anyway. The reverse is true as well. People will work harder for you if they are certain they will be appropriately rewarded for it.

Here is the long and short of it: Disney values its employees, and rather than have all the good servers quit as a result of being constantly screwed by people unfamiliar with American tipping customs (which it seems some Americans have some difficulty with as well), they chose to institute a safeguard which affects mostly those people who are the issue in the first place.

If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well. If you do not tip well, and this policy causes you to spend more money, then Disney has done the right thing.

[manning]

I will clue you in on something that anybody who's ever worked in the restaurant business knows for a fact: your tip has absolutely no bearing on the service you receive. Every server works with the expectation that he or she will be receiving 18-20% on the TOTAL CHECK at the conclusion of the dining experience. The only time your tip directly affects your service is if you return and that server remembers the poor tip you gave. Then you can probably expect even worse service, because they don't expect to be rewarded anyway. The reverse is true as well. People
If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well. If you do not tip well, and this policy causes you to spend more money, then Disney has done the right thing.

Expectation of receiving 18-20% on the total check--HMM sorry I don't believe in entitlements.

[manning]

I will clue you in on something that anybody who's ever worked in the restaurant business knows for a fact: your tip has absolutely no bearing on the service you receive. Every server works with the expectation that he or she will be receiving 18-20% on the TOTAL CHECK at the conclusion of the dining experience. The only time your tip directly affects your service is if you return and that server remembers the poor tip you gave. Then you can probably expect even worse service, because they don't expect to be rewarded anyway. The reverse is true as well. People
If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well. If you do not tip well, and this policy causes you to spend more money, then Disney has done the right thing.

"Expectation of receiving 18-20% on the total check"--HMM sorry I don't believe in entitlements.

"[B]If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well."

I await your apology on that statement (even though I wasn't the one who posted it). I often tip 20% on the total non discounted amount ---- if the service is outstanding. Often times it is.

And when service is bad then I lower the tip AND have a chat with the manager.

When it is really really bad I have been known to contact corporate.

So if you see me and don't give good service turn the other way, because I will take the time to complain.

Likewise if you are really really good I will let the manager know.

[Sandus]

Expectation of receiving 18-20% on the total check--HMM sorry I don't believe in entitlements.

What kind of work do you do? How would you feel if your boss came up to you and said "I don't think you did a very good job today, so you're only going to get paid for half"?

What you see as "entitlement," servers see as "income." Everybody is acting like the 18% is some kind of bonus on top of a salary that servers pocket and then whisper in the corner about what suckers you are. Tips are virtually all they make.

Do you go into a store and only offer to pay half price for a product? Why should service not have its appropriate price?

[Sandus]

I await your apology on that statement (even though I wasn't the one who posted it). I often tip 20% on the total non discounted amount ---- if the service is outstanding. Often times it is.

And when service is bad then I lower the tip AND have a chat with the manager.

When it is really really bad I have been known to contact corporate.

So if you see me and don't give good service turn the other way, because I will take the time to complain.

Likewise if you are really really good I will let the manager know.
This appeared after my reply.

If what you say is actually the case, then I commend you. Educated consumers like you actually do improve the quality of restaurants.

However, why should a policy like this change how you do things? If bad service results in a discussion with the manager then you can simply add "and please remove the automatic 18% from my check" to the end of the conversation and all is status quo. If you wish to add additional tip, in the event of outstanding service, nobody will argue with you.

I believe your issue is with your standard tip for "good" service, which I would guess is below 18%, and thus the outrage over the system.

[Another Voice]

If you had no problem paying for service, then an automatic gratuity would be a non-issue.
But the restaurant needs to be honest up front and call it a service charge. At that point I can make the decision for myself that I’m giving up my right to tip. But when Disney still calls the forced additional charge a “tip” – that is meant to imply that it’s optional because that’s what people think “tip” means.

I'm paying seventy-five bucks just for the right to get into a Disney park for the opportunity to eat at their overpriced restaurants - and now the solution is to waste time telling a manager to remove a forced tip? That's customer service.

Call the charge what it is and be honest with people.

If you want to avoid paying the bulk of a server's income via gratuity, stop dining out.
Back at you: If you can’t live on what the restaurant pays – get another job.

Tipping has not been optional in a very long time.
Really – Denny’s has now been automatically adding tips to everyone’s bill? I guess I need to dine out more often.

and rather than have all the good servers quit as a result of being constantly screwed by people unfamiliar with American tipping customs
Wait a minute – now it’s all the fault of those damn foreigners!!!! I knew those Brazilians were up to no good. Sorry – but that’s just silly. Disney is instituting forced gratuities because Disney refuses to pay a wage that would attract quality employees. Disney is stuffing a whole lot of their costs down onto me in a back-handed manner and I have every right to write against it.

then you are a liar and do not tip well.
Honey, with that attitude, not tipping you would be a joy.

Everybody is acting like the 18% is some kind of bonus on top of a salary that servers pocket
That – in short – is exactly what a tip is.

Anything that I am forced to pay – whether it goes to you or the manager – is a service charge.

The difference being is that when I have no control over how much I pay, I also tend to lose control over the quality of service I get. Sorry if basic free markets are so horrible for you – but I think I get better service when there is an incentive to do well, and service gets worse when there’s no incentive to do anything at all.

[manning]

What kind of work do you do? How would you feel if your boss came up to you and said "I don't think you did a very good job today, so you're only going to get paid for half"?



Actually I wouldn't have to worry about that. More than likely I would have to worry about being fired.

I worked under a system called result management. Some swear by it, some at it.

With that you and your boss come up with defined goals and how you will be gauged by it. If you say you can complete 95% (agreed upon) of the job in a specified time got an excellent grade and tip (raise). If you complete 50%(agreed upon) of the job you didn't get a tip (raise), under that 50% more than likely you got invited to pack your things and leave (fired).

It couldn't be done with your job, but the amount of tip should act as an incentive.

[agnes!]

I can't remember if I read this particular bit within this thread or elsewhere on the DIS, but I seem to remember that a recent WDW diner attempted to have this service charge (yes, it was apparently already being added to some establishment's checks) removed and the manager refused. Does anyone else remember reading that post?

It really will be a service charge, you know, not a gratuity.

agnes!

[Sandus]

But the restaurant needs to be honest up front and call it a service charge. At that point I can make the decision for myself that I’m giving up my right to tip. But when Disney still calls the forced additional charge a “tip” – that is meant to imply that it’s optional because that’s what people think “tip” means.

I'm paying seventy-five bucks just for the right to get into a Disney park for the opportunity to eat at their overpriced restaurants - and now the solution is to waste time telling a manager to remove a forced tip? That's customer service.

Call the charge what it is and be honest with people.
I'm not going to argue semantics. It's a service charge, to make sure that the employees are being taken care of. If you believe you've overpaid for inferior service, then it's your obligation as a consumer to get it corrected, much in the same way you would return to the store if you were overcharged for an item.
If you can’t live on what the restaurant pays – get another job.
Okay, let's play that game. The average mid-range large restaurant will do approximately $25000 in business per night (roughly 500 people). For those 500 people you would require approximately 18 servers who would make an average of $200 each and 2-3 bartenders at $250 each. That's an additional $4350 that you're asking the restaurant to assume (not including the cost of bus boys and food runners, who typically get paid by servers). How do they pay for that extra labor cost? By raising prices. That $25000 in sales becomes $29350 in sales, an increase of...17.4%. Now factor in that you're paying tax on the additional prices (gratuity is not taxable) and you see that by letting you pay the server, you're actually saving the restaurant money and keeping prices down.

The "get another job" argument fails when you find out that if a restaurant pays minimum wage with no tips, you get minimum wage caliber employees, a la McDonald's. Do you enjoy your McDonald's service experience? When was the last time a McDonald's employee went above and beyond your expectations? Are they trained in the food and drink? The next time you go out for fast food, ask them something about the products they serve, like "What kind of fish is in the fish sandwich?" That's minimum wage service.
Wait a minute – now it’s all the fault of those damn foreigners!!!! I knew those Brazilians were up to no good. Sorry – but that’s just silly. Disney is instituting forced gratuities because Disney refuses to pay a wage that would attract quality employees. Disney is stuffing a whole lot of their costs down onto me in a back-handed manner and I have every right to write against it.
I didn't say foreigners. There are a good number of Americans (including some on this thread) with abhorrent tipping practices. I give people from foreign countries the benefit of the doubt because they may not always be educated in how they are supposed to tip (there's a thread elsewhere on this site at the moment where an English lady said that $5-10 for an entire meal, regardless of price, would be a substantial tip), but seeing as Walt Disney World is a place with substantial international tourism, it behooves them to protect their employees from people who don't know any better.

Honey, with that attitude, not tipping you would be a joy.
And yet, even if I knew you weren't tipping, you'd still get a high level of service.

Even so, you cannot dispute the validity of the statement. If you tip at least 18% all the time, then there's no need to get upset about this change.

The difference being is that when I have no control over how much I pay, I also tend to lose control over the quality of service I get. Sorry if basic free markets are so horrible for you – but I think I get better service when there is an incentive to do well, and service gets worse when there’s no incentive to do anything at all.
I already told you that you have no control over the quality of service you get. No server ever goes to a table with the belief that he or she will be happy just to get 18%. They want 20. Those who are accustomed to 20% want 25. You still have the ability to reward exceptional service, and so there is still the motivation to perform exceptionally.

You can argue all you want about punishing people who don't perform up to your standards, but that person just spent the last 75-100 minutes thinking about how to make you happy. The least you can do is give him enough money to keep a consistent income. In the long run, servers who aren't very good will go one of two ways. They'll either improve, or they'll be forced to move on.

I'll say it again:
If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well. If you do not tip well, and this policy causes you to spend more money, then Disney has done the right thing.

[shecky4185]

Sandus i agree with you 100%. Now I'm not trying to get on peoples bad side, but it is very clear that 99% of you have never been servers. It is one of the hardest jobs i've ever had. I understand that you guys want to have control over how much you tip, but if you say you normally tip well, then this should not be an issue at all. If you have horrible service then simply notify the manager, no biggie. And if you are one of those people who normally tip 10-15%, even for the best service, then this should be a wake up call that you are clearly not tipping the appropriate ammount.

And as for "getting a better job" Are you seriously saying you've never said you hate your job, or you wish you could make more money? Its a lot easier said than done. people complain about their jobs all the time, deal with it.

[ChrisFL]

Sandus i agree with you 100%. Now I'm not trying to get on peoples bad side, but it is very clear that 99% of you have never been servers. It is one of the hardest jobs i've ever had. I understand that you guys want to have control over how much you tip, but if you say you normally tip well, then this should not be an issue at all. If you have horrible service then simply notify the manager, no biggie. And if you are one of those people who normally tip 10-15%, even for the best service, then this should be a wake up call that you are clearly not tipping the appropriate ammount.

And as for "getting a better job" Are you seriously saying you've never said you hate your job, or you wish you could make more money? Its a lot easier said than done. people complain about their jobs all the time, deal with it.

That's besides the point. IF a 18% "Gratuity" is automatically added, then it is NO LONGER a "Gratuity" but a SERVICE CHARGE and should be displayed as such.

You say "simply notify the manager" but in reality, I can forsee this taking up a LOT of the manager's time if every few tables need to complain about something as off the wall as an "automatic gratuity"

[DancingBear]

I already told you that you have no control over the quality of service you get. No server ever goes to a table with the belief that he or she will be happy just to get 18%. They want 20. Those who are accustomed to 20% want 25. You still have the ability to reward exceptional service, and so there is still the motivation to perform exceptionally.

You can argue all you want about punishing people who don't perform up to your standards, but that person just spent the last 75-100 minutes thinking about how to make you happy. The least you can do is give him enough money to keep a consistent income. In the long run, servers who aren't very good will go one of two ways. They'll either improve, or they'll be forced to move on.You must be an exceptional server; I've had plenty who I will guaranty didn't spend more than perhaps a few moments thinking about how to make me happy.

I've worked in the restaurant business and been around plenty of servers, and all the ones I've known have spent plenty of time prejudging the amount of the tip they were going to receive, paying special attention to those who might be big tippers, and less to those that they "know" are the stiffing type.

Or, they worked hard at pleasing guests because they wanted to get the maximum tips possible from the guests. And the fact is, once you make everyone pay an 18% service charge, you've taken away some of that incentive. Sure you can add on, and sure you can try to find a manager to take off the charge, but we all know that the vast majority of folks will just pay the 18% and move on. And when the servers know that (in the absence of a culture of service such as exists in some places in Europe where included service charges are the norm), they will respond accordingly.

[sarcasticblonde]

You must be an exceptional server; I've had plenty who I will guaranty didn't spend more than perhaps a few moments thinking about how to make me happy.

I've worked in the restaurant business and been around plenty of servers, and all the ones I've known have spent plenty of time prejudging the amount of the tip they were going to receive, paying special attention to those who might be big tippers, and less to those that they "know" are the stiffing type.

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").

Servers could find other jobs. But SOMEONE has to work those jobs. If no one tipped at sit down restaurants, there would be no servers. I can assure you that no server is going to work for $2.50 an hour.

Or, they worked hard at pleasing guests because they wanted to get the maximum tips possible from the guests. And the fact is, once you make everyone pay an 18% service charge, you've taken away some of that incentive. Sure you can add on, and sure you can try to find a manager to take off the charge, but we all know that the vast majority of folks will just pay the 18% and move on. And when the servers know that (in the absence of a culture of service such as exists in some places in Europe where included service charges are the norm), they will respond accordingly.

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better. Some servers, especially at WDW, love children and will bend over backwards to make your little guy or girl feel special. They will listen to your demands, they will get you your bleu cheese on the side, your lite dressing, your 18 refills on water, pick up your child's broken crayons, clean up your soda spill, and do it all with a smile.

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.

[PrincessBride010103]

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").

Servers could find other jobs. But SOMEONE has to work those jobs. If no one tipped at sit down restaurants, there would be no servers. I can assure you that no server is going to work for $2.50 an hour.



I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better. Some servers, especially at WDW, love children and will bend over backwards to make your little guy or girl feel special. They will listen to your demands, they will get you your bleu cheese on the side, your lite dressing, your 18 refills on water, pick up your child's broken crayons, clean up your soda spill, and do it all with a smile.

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.



I couldn't have said this better myself....

[Another Voice]

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better.
Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.

[sarcasticblonde]

Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.

You can turn it around however you wish so that it neatly fits into your argument.

I stand by what I said that servers want that 20%. But as you so wonderfully misinterpreted my statement, servers will STRIVE to work for the 20%. Just because they may know they are getting a guaranteed 18% doesn't mean that they won't give you the 20% service. You work harder for more money. Who doesn't do this in life? Who doesn't teach their kids that the harder they work the better they will be rewaded?

[ChrisFL]

You can turn it around however you wish so that it neatly fits into your argument.

I don't think AV is turning anything around, facts are facts, the name disney is using for this is fundamentally incorrect. It doesn't matter whether you are a server, been a server or never seen a server in your life the facts of the matter don't change.

[EUROPACL]

I stand by what I said that servers want that 20%. But as you so wonderfully misinterpreted my statement, servers will STRIVE to work for the 20%. Just because they may know they are getting a guaranteed 18% doesn't mean that they won't give you the 20% service. You work harder for more money. Who doesn't do this in life? Who doesn't teach their kids that the harder they work the better they will be rewaded?

OMG what world do you live in? Is the sky still blue there? That is one of the funniest things I've ever read in my life.

[DancingBear]

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.That's great. I'd love to have you be my server, and I'd tip well. And it sounds like the servers at your restaurant are the cream of the crop. But are you really saying all servers have the same great attitude and work ethic that you do?

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").Actually (as I mentioned earlier) I worked at a restaurant for several years, in the kitchen, in very grueling and taxing jobs where I made less money than even the worst of the servers. And my wife was a hostess and server off and on for several years. I'm very happy I don't still work in a restaurant; it is very demanding.

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better.I have no doubt that's true. But do you really think all servers are willing to go the extra mile for 20% if they know they're going to get 18% from 90+ percent of the patrons no matter what?

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.Perhaps. If so, they didn't get that way because of me, so I hope they don't bring their bad attitudes to my table.

[DisneyKidds]

Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.
I'm sensitive to your "gratuity vs. service charge" and "you are taking away my choice" arguments. They are valid questions/concerns. You lose me when you turn this into a "Disney screwing the customer cost saving measure" argument. How is this a cost saving measure for Disney?

[sarcasticblonde]

OMG what world do you live in? Is the sky still blue there? That is one of the funniest things I've ever read in my life.

Yes...apparently it's hysterical to think that someone actually works hard at their job. What world do you live in?

That's great. I'd love to have you be my server, and I'd tip well. And it sounds like the servers at your restaurant are the cream of the crop. But are you really saying all servers have the same great attitude and work ethic that you do?
No, I am not saying that. And those are the ones that you should complain about so that they can be reprimanded and/or fired. Weed out all the bad servers so that you have only the best working there. Then people wouldn't feel quite as cheated with the added gratuity.

I have no doubt that's true. But do you really think all servers are willing to go the extra mile for 20% if they know they're going to get 18% from 90+ percent of the patrons no matter what?
I suppose that I cannot speak for every server in the US or WDW for that matter. I can only tell you that I work hard for my money and that everyone that I work with works hard for their money.

[EUROPACL]

Yes...apparently it's hysterical to think that someone actually works hard at their job. What world do you live in?
Oh now I see you were talking about one person that you know who works hard at their job. Yes I know that person too. I thought that you were saying the world was filled with people(servers especially) that want to do nothing but hard work for their money. Yes clearly the world is filled with these people and that is the number 1 goal that every parent instills in their child "busting your butt at your job". I mean really now when anyone thinks "Mcdonalds" they think "hard working trying to make the customer happy".

[sarcasticblonde]

Oh now I see you were talking about one person that you know who works hard at their job. Yes I know that person too. I thought that you were saying the world was filled with people(servers especially) that want to do nothing but hard work for their money. Yes clearly the world is filled with these people and that is the number 1 goal that every parent instills in their child "busting your butt at your job". I mean really now when anyone thinks "Mcdonalds" they think "hard working trying to make the customer happy".

So many things come to mind to say back to you. Instead, I will keep it civil.

I know many people who work hard for their money, myself included. I don't work at McDonalds. I worked at a McDonalds 9 years ago when I was 16. Learn to read.

And I watched my father work hard my entire life to provide for his family. He's a good man who taught his children to work hard to have the things that they want in life. He also taught us that people respect and reward hard workers. Why is that a bad thing? How is that living in a fairy tale world? I've experienced many rewards due to my hard work.

Perhaps you've been able to bait me into an argument but unfortunately this is an issue that I strongly care about.

[EUROPACL]

So many things come to mind to say back to you. Instead, I will keep it civil.

I know many people who work hard for their money, myself included. I don't work at McDonalds. I worked at a McDonalds 9 years ago when I was 16. Learn to read.

And I watched my father work hard my entire life to provide for his family. He's a good man who taught his children to work hard to have the things that they want in life. He also taught us that people respect and reward hard workers. Why is that a bad thing? How is that living in a fairy tale world? I've experienced many rewards due to my hard work.

Perhaps you've been able to bait me into an argument but unfortunately this is an issue that I strongly care about.

Oh I missed where I said you still worked at Mcdonalds (learn to read) it was a subtle point. (go back and read slower this time maybe you will get the point).

*Sigh* nobody question how you were raised or if you work hard for your money, or if that is a good thing to teach the kids. It was the fact that you implied it was the overall norm with servers and people in general. Which brings us back to your days at McDonalds...I'm sure the one you worked out was filled with people that wanted to do nothing but server the hotest fries and freshes Mcribs...a quick check in the real world will find that not to be the case and..... my point.

[sarcasticblonde]

Oh I missed where I said you still worked at Mcdonalds (learn to read) it was a subtle point. (go back and read slower this time maybe you will get the point).

*Sigh* nobody question how you were raised or if you work hard for your money, or if that is a good thing to teach the kids. It was the fact that you implied it was the overall norm with servers and people in general. Which brings us back to your days at McDonalds...I'm sure the one you worked out was filled with people that wanted to do nothing but server the hotest fries and freshes Mcribs...a quick check in the real world will find that not to be the case and..... my point.

Well I'm sorry that you don't get to experience the same world that I grew up in and currently live in :goodvibes

[CanadianGuy]

I don't think AV is turning anything around, facts are facts, the name disney is using for this is fundamentally incorrect.

I suspect that as soon as the majority of restaurants nationwide change the name they use for the autogratuity on parties of 6 or 8 or more .. Disney will too. Are you suggesting Disney should lead the charge on that?


But do you really think all servers are willing to go the extra mile for 20% if they know they're going to get 18% from 90+ percent of the patrons no matter what?


Did I miss the press release where this auto-grat will be added to "90+ percent" of guest checks.. no matter what?

Knox

[Sandus]

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service.
Exactly.

You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.
Not quite. It isn't higher incomes. Most servers (even at lower levels) average about 18%, at least where I come from. It's consistent income. Any server can tell you about the day they got 10% tips from every table no matter what they did and went home with less than $10 in their pockets.

Most people go to work with an expectation of what they will make that day (usually because they get paid hourly or a salary) and budget accordingly. Servers are no different. But whereas the regularly paid worker says "I need to take part of this paycheck and set it aside for my car payment," the server says "I really hope I get good tips today so I can make my car payment."

The reward system is still there, it just starts on a different scale. Instead of 0% to infinity, the scale starts at 18% and goes to infinity. Notice how there's no maximum. I've seen servers get 300% tips or higher. The only people who this truly affects are people who routinely tip under 18%, which I believe to be too low anyway (bearing in mind that of that 18%, the server only goes home with about 10-14%).

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.
I still contend that this is semantics. The word "tip" has evolved over time to the point that when dining at a restaurant, a tip and a service charge are synonymous (for the record, one restaurant I worked at actually put the words "service charge" on the check for the gratuity line). You scoffed when I said that tipping wasn't optional anymore, but if you walk into any bar or restaurant and proclaim that you never tip, I guarantee you that you'll ruffle more than a couple feathers. So while "tipping" in the traditional sense isn't a requirement, it's become a social institution in which there is an appropriate way to go about doing it. Since a large percentage of Disney diners are either unfamiliar with or refuse to abide by it, Disney imposed a safeguard to protect (note my continuous use of that word) its employees.
But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.
I never used the word "jerk," nor have I seen anyone else accuse you of being so. Rather, I am enjoying this discussion because you're more articulate and less hard headed than the majority of internet forum posters I've come across.

As far as lying, I'm only categorizing you (or anyone else for that matter) as a liar if you contend that you always (except in rare, justified cases) tip at least 18% ("well"), but this policy will alter the way that you tip.

I'm not saying that all servers work hard, nor do all people in any profession on this earth. There are always going to be lazy people who skate by in this world, but that shouldn't mean that you should punish those who do work hard by having preconceived notions of laziness because of some charge that gets added to your bill. People who expect bad service often believe they're getting bad service even when they aren't.

[sarcasticblonde]

I'm not saying that all servers work hard, nor do all people in any profession on this earth. There are always going to be lazy people who skate by in this world, but that shouldn't mean that you should punish those who do work hard by having preconceived notions of laziness because of some charge that gets added to your bill. People who expect bad service often believe they're getting bad service even when they aren't.

I'd agree with that. If you have something already made up in your head (i.e servers will provide sub par service because they have an guaranteed 18% tip), it's hard for anyone - even a extraordinary server providing you with a enjoyable dining experience - to change one's mind.

[mrmagicmph]

I'm NOT one for debates, and am truly NOT trying to start to argue with anyone on here. For that matter, to all customers who have not been servers, please do not take this as "egging you on" and to all servers, please do not take this as being a slight against you or any of your coworkers. I will venture a guess that I have never been served by you and have never eaten in any restaurant that you may have worked, so this is NOT intended to say that you as a server have failed in your job or deserve less OR more of a "tip". I put the word "tip" in quotes for reasons I'll explain now.

According to the Merriam Webster dictionary (not one that is user editable), one of the various definitions of the noun "tip" is a gratuity. A gratuity is defined as "something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service" (emphasis added by me). To contrast, a service charge is defined by Merriam Webster as "a fee charged for a particular service often in addition to a standard or basic fee" (emphasis added again).

I do not want to get into a debate on what a fair "tip" for a server is or is not; that's not what my concern with Disney's changes are. I suspect that for at least many (perhaps the majority, perhaps not) of the people who object to the new "tip" being added automatically at 18% when certain conditions are met, their displeasure is the same as mine.

Based upon the definition of a gratuity as compared with that of a service charge, Disney has indeed added a service charge. In one of the previous messages, someone said they felt this was a debate about "semantics". Unfortunately, semantics makes a very big difference. Just as I suspect that everyone would complain about false advertising if a gas station were to say that "only" the premium gasoline would run your car, as opposed to their saying that they "recommend" premium gasoline, so too do we, the consumer, feel that if Disney is changing their policy, they should also change their terminology to reflect what they are actually doing.

Put another way, anyone who has recently seen those commercials where they're showing a car that has obviously just been on fire (it still has smoke coming from it) and the ad that the "seller" is putting on (I think that the commercial is for something like Carfax) says "this car is HOT!" would agree, words make all the difference in the world.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

[manning]

Guess what I just received today from Disney?



An application form for "Disney Dining Experience"

Just to remove any doubt about the change here it is.

Under the large letters "EXPERIENCE THESE MEMBER BENEFITS" is this.

A charge of 18% gratuity will be added to all transactions regardless of party size at all full service dining locations and lounges.

Gee, some benefit.

Well that seals it, when I receive excellent service I will give the 18% on the discounted price IN PLACE of the 20% on the full price.

If the service is not good the gratuity wll be removed.

Kind of looks like a lot more income taxes are going to be paid. It sure is going to be a heck harder to hide those tips.

I'M NOT ABOUT TO BE TOLD WHAT I AM GOING TO LEAVE AS A GRATUITY!!!

[mitros]

I'm NOT one for debates, and am truly NOT trying to start to argue with anyone on here. For that matter, to all customers who have not been servers, please do not take this as "egging you on" and to all servers, please do not take this as being a slight against you or any of your coworkers. I will venture a guess that I have never been served by you and have never eaten in any restaurant that you may have worked, so this is NOT intended to say that you as a server have failed in your job or deserve less OR more of a "tip". I put the word "tip" in quotes for reasons I'll explain now.

According to the Merriam Webster dictionary (not one that is user editable), one of the various definitions of the noun "tip" is a gratuity. A gratuity is defined as "something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service" (emphasis added by me). To contrast, a service charge is defined by Merriam Webster as "a fee charged for a particular service often in addition to a standard or basic fee" (emphasis added again).

I do not want to get into a debate on what a fair "tip" for a server is or is not; that's not what my concern with Disney's changes are. I suspect that for at least many (perhaps the majority, perhaps not) of the people who object to the new "tip" being added automatically at 18% when certain conditions are met, their displeasure is the same as mine.

Based upon the definition of a gratuity as compared with that of a service charge, Disney has indeed added a service charge. In one of the previous messages, someone said they felt this was a debate about "semantics". Unfortunately, semantics makes a very big difference. Just as I suspect that everyone would complain about false advertising if a gas station were to say that "only" the premium gasoline would run your car, as opposed to their saying that they "recommend" premium gasoline, so too do we, the consumer, feel that if Disney is changing their policy, they should also change their terminology to reflect what they are actually doing.

Put another way, anyone who has recently seen those commercials where they're showing a car that has obviously just been on fire (it still has smoke coming from it) and the ad that the "seller" is putting on (I think that the commercial is for something like Carfax) says "this car is HOT!" would agree, words make all the difference in the world.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

Except that according to disboards, there is no debate board. I'm amazed one of the monitors hasn't shut this thread down yet. I've seen threads that were far less of a "debate'' and they have shut them down. They must all be out Christmas shopping. ;)

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Just got an e-mail from the DDE {disney Dining Experience} and they {WDW} are now going to add an 18% tip to all checks, regardless of the number of guests in the party as of Jan. 1, 2008, at ALL food and beverage locations throughout the property. This has GOT to piss everyone off..........:scared1: :furious:

We usually tip over 18% so we will be saving money.

[Sandus]

Okay, my patience is gone. You want choice and power? Here it is.

If you don't like how they run the show, DON'T EAT THERE. Otherwise, shut up and pay the fee.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to dine at Disney restaurants. If you want to be cheap, be my guest, but you'll earn no respect from a lot of people, including me.

[PrincessBride010103]

Okay, my patience is gone. You want choice and power? Here it is.

If you don't like how they run the show, DON'T EAT THERE. Otherwise, shut up and pay the fee.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to dine at Disney restaurants. If you want to be cheap, be my guest, but you'll earn no respect from a lot of people, including me.

Agreed.

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Except that according to disboards, there is no debate board. I'm amazed one of the monitors hasn't shut this thread down yet. I've seen threads that were far less of a "debate'' and they have shut them down. They must all be out Christmas shopping. ;)

I was just thinking the same thing. Very angry board tonight......
I do have some comments but I will just laugh to myself, one has to do with, nahhhhh I better not.

[ChrisFL]

Okay, my patience is gone. You want choice and power? Here it is.

If you don't like how they run the show, DON'T EAT THERE. Otherwise, shut up and pay the fee.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to dine at Disney restaurants. If you want to be cheap, be my guest, but you'll earn no respect from a lot of people, including me.

Nice, easier said than done, unless you want to get out, drive off property (or take a cab or something) to have a nice, sit down experience, you're out of luck....really nice, a class move by Disney :sad2:

[paulh]

I'M NOT ABOUT TO BE TOLD WHAT I AM GOING TO LEAVE AS A GRATUITY!!!

Guess that sentance sums up the whole debate.
Paulh

[beachblanket]

O.K., now for a new tangent on this thread.

Specifically, how do people think this change is going to affect the service given to parties that don't fall under it? Ergo, in my situation, what should my party of five -- who will not be on the DDE -- expect when we sit down a table service spots in February?

Will the server immediately roll their eyes, viewing us as a "not worth the effort" since there's no guaranteed "gratuity" :rolleyes1 at our table? Or will they view us as one of those great new opportunities (to get above 18%?)

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[just another guy]

O.K., now for a new tangent on this thread.

Specifically, how do people think this change is going to affect the service given to parties that don't fall under it? Ergo, in my situation, what should my party of five -- who will not be on the DDE -- expect when we sit down a table service spots in February?

Will the server immediately roll their eyes, viewing us as a "not worth the effort" since there's no guaranteed "gratuity" :rolleyes1 at our table? Or will they view us as one of those great new opportunities (to get above 18%?)

:confused: :confused: :confused:

You can take the "what if's" and view things anyway you want. Servers now get 18% on DDE, so the server won't worry about giving them good service. DDP people now have to pay their own tip, which probably won't be up to the 18% standard, so the server won't take good care of them. Servers will now just ask who is paying straight cash, and only server them properly.

:sad2:




DDE people can still leave extra cash if they want, and DDP people can now tip 100% if they want. 97% of the servers at disney try their best to equally serve all guest the best they can. Thats the bottom line.

[NYDisneyKid]

CiCi's Pizza,,,,All you can eat $3.49...no tip required. ºOº

[just another guy]

CiCi's Pizza,,,,All you can eat $3.49...no tip required. ºOº

Yup, just the knowledge you best stay within 50 feet of a toilet within the next couple hours.

[NYDisneyKid]

Yup, just the knowledge you best stay within 50 feet of a toilet within the next couple hours.

o w t f e. ºOº

[tfc3rid]

Look, living in NYC, I am used to having a charge of 20% on parties of 6 or more... After that, it is your choice to add additional gratuity... Same thing applies here... It is what it is... And what it is is standard restaurant practice...

However, it should still be in the servers best interests to provide excellent service because (a) it's their job and (b) better service may equal additional gratuity...