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View Full Version : 5 in a 1-B/R: A poll, NOT a debate


Caskbill
02-17-2002, 04:58 PM
The 5 in a 1-B/R topic is being debated again, but debates never seem to really express public opinion, or offer real solutions.

A family of 5 is an awkward size for DVC. Definitely too big for a studio, but somewhat small for a 2-B/R. The 1-B/R has a lot more space than the studio, and it's tough for many to justify the extra points cost for a 2-B/R when you have only 1 extra person.

Since we as members are basically 'stockholders' of DVC, we can have some say in what the 'rules' should be.

I thought of four possible choices that are given above, or check "other" and give your own choice in a reply.

Limit this to 1-B/R only please. And limit this to 5-persons only, assuming anywhere from 1 adult with 4 children up to 5 adults. This is not about 6-persons, or 7-persons....etc.

DO NOT turn this into a debate or it will get moved. If you want to debate the <u>current</u> situation go to the debate board.

INMO I think solution #4 is reasonable. What do you think?

Replies are welcomed but do not express opinions that simply offer debate instead of new ideas.

PamOKW
02-17-2002, 05:32 PM
For #4 to be an option, IMHO I don't think $3-$5 would cover the expense. It's $25 for each adult over 2 in deluxe room ($15 in a moderate) so that must be closer to expenses....even before adding the costs of supplying rollaway beds.

Laurabearz
02-17-2002, 05:38 PM
I selected OTHER coz I really dont care.... Make no differece how many people anyone wants to put in any room..... It doesnt effect my vacation.....

robinb
02-17-2002, 05:41 PM
I don't think the roll-out idea is a good one :(. Since none of the other Diseney resorts have roll-outs, I assume it's a company-wide decision to not offer them. Offering them at the Disney resorts would require a whole new policy on how to handle roll-outs, linens for roll-outs, storage for roll-outs, etc.

I also don't like the "official blind eye" to families who exceed the number of beds.

Instead, I think maybe more daybeds can be put in some 1 bedrooms and more studios. I read on the resorts boards that the day beds in the deluxe resorts will comfortably fit an adult. BTW, does anyone have picture of the "studio plus" at BWV? I'd like to see the size of the existing day bed.

Eeyore2U
02-17-2002, 05:41 PM
I said keep as is. More in a room means more wear and tear, which means increased dues.

Johnnie Fedora
02-17-2002, 05:49 PM
I think $15.00-25.00 would be way too much since there is not daily housekeeping at DVC. I would opt for $3.00/day for DVC to only provide some extra towels and soap.:)

Chuck S
02-17-2002, 05:53 PM
I voted to enforce the limits...since pools, restaurants, and other amenities of the resorts were built to accomodate XX number of visitors, based on set occupancy levels dues would have to be raised to expand those services -or- face overcrowded and possibly unsafe conditions.

newt1912
02-17-2002, 05:53 PM
I vote for #4 but I think only charging $3-$5 for the extra person/night is on the low side. There will be the expense of a rollaway bed (if desired) and the cost of extra towels and the wear and tear factor. I am sure that DVC could come up with a fair and accurate price. I remember when hotels would charge an extra $10/adult in a resort room. Someone said it is up to $25/extra adult. Wow! That is steep!

ripleysmom
02-17-2002, 06:13 PM
I vote for #4 but charge $10 a day for the rollout. The extra towels are already covered by extra towel charges IMHO.

I know for our family I would love the availability of a rollout. We are 4 but wind up with a 2 BR because my son doesn't want to share the bed with his sister. I pay an extra $10 a day in a heartbeat to save the points.

ripleysmom
02-17-2002, 06:15 PM
Chuck I think if you were to check total occupancy you would find the resort still under limits even with 5 in a 1 BR. I mean how many people really put 8 in a 2 BR?

DebbieB
02-17-2002, 06:21 PM
I voted for #4, but I would put an age limit on it. I would not want to see 5 adults in a 1 bedroom. Maybe the 5th person has to be under 10. I would bet alot of younger kids sleep in the king with the parents anyway, so no extra bedding may be needed. Not the greatest situation, but that's the members choice.

BobBrazeal
02-17-2002, 06:23 PM
My first thought and therefore, my vote, was to keep and enforce the limits already in place.

If, and I think it is a big "if", they were to change the policy to allow for some charge for a 5th person, I would want to be assured that whatever the charge would be, it would totally cover any and all expences associated with this new policy and would not spill over into a dues increase. I have no idea what the charge would or should be. But, as a single that would not ever be likely to use this new policy, I would not want to have my dues increase to cover it.

PamOKW
02-17-2002, 07:28 PM
how many people really put 8 in a 2 BR?

;) ;) Yeah, they've got 9-10 easy. ;) ;) Sorry, couldn't resist. (Slapping my hand to keep this off the Debate Board.)

rbuzzotta
02-17-2002, 08:00 PM
I voted for #4 especially since my baby is now 3 and we are a family of 5!!! We have ressies in a 2 BR (OKW) this summer and I am nervous about them being a little bit far from us in the 2nd BR(3 DD's laughing and giggling at bedtime etc!). I liked it when they were on the pull out in the living room and in the crib!!! We still had plenty of room, but then again, we don't spend much time in the villa anyways..............we are always up and about!!

I'll give you my honest opinion when I have the opportunity to stay in a 2 BR (for 2 weeks)!!!

Thanks Caskbill, this is an interesting poll!!

Deb & Bill
02-17-2002, 08:07 PM
Gee whiz, we OKW owners won't vote to put in a slide or lifeguard at the pool. Do you really think we would vote to increase our dues for something most of us (we're ancient, you know) will never even use?

Deb & Bill
02-17-2002, 08:10 PM
By the way, if you allow 5 in a 1-bedroom, you also have to increase the number of plates, glasses, stainless, etc, as well as towels, and bedding.

ReneeQ
02-17-2002, 08:14 PM
I have a picture of the daybed in the studio plus at BWV, taken on 1/25/02. It's not a digital picture. I can scan it, but have no idea how to post it here.

JADEMM
02-17-2002, 08:14 PM
#4 also but maybe install TRUNDLE BEDS in a select number (or all) units like in Dixie Landings, the 3rd child is only temporary anyway as the kids leave home and then you dont need to use more points for the trundle and you also dont have way too many points for an uneccesary 2 bedroom.

Johnnie Fedora
02-17-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by PamOKW


;) ;) Yeah, they've got 9-10 easy. ;) ;)

LOL Pam,

I assuming that 9 and 10 are FiFi and Fido!!:eek::eek: :eek:

Caskbill
02-18-2002, 12:02 AM
By the way, if you allow 5 in a 1-bedroom, you also have to increase the number of plates, glasses, stainless, etc, as well as towels, and bedding.

Good point, so for clarification on this poll, let's say this would be true if you picked item number 3, but if you pick item number 4 then the designed occupancy would still be 4-persons, so glasses, plates etc do not change, and only bedding and towels are added when a 5th person comes in.

Hope this doesn't change anybody's vote.

<b>Also to everyone.....please be careful of your comments so we don't wind up in a debate. Let's keep this as an opinion / idea poll only. Thanks.</b> <i>We're all probably a little gun shy on this point now, and I'm sure the moderators are watching closely. I think voting and posting why you voted a specific way, or explaining any conditions on your vote, is fine. Let's just be careful on the replies and not get into the what-if's, or that will cause....etc, etc. Thanks </u>

Chuck S
02-18-2002, 12:20 AM
Ripleysmom:

True, that many units are under occupied..but my point was that the resort (OKW)would have to retrofitted for the safety and service of the POTENTIAL number of allowed guests. The other resorts may be able to handle overflow better because they are 'attached' to an existing resort. OKW is a free-standing fully sold DVC resort. If limits were increased and IF all the units were one over the current limits, the facility would have to be modified...at the expense of owners.

vernon
02-18-2002, 04:13 AM
I voted for #4, I can't see any time that personally I'd use that option now, but IMHO the units are big enough to accommodate an extra person and I really feel for families with 3 kids who , IMHO, get a pretty rough ride on accommodation. I do think that the cost should be AT LEAST enough to cover the cost and a little bit extra and that it should be limited so that at least 2 of the 5 are children under 15. I'm certain that the resort has a little "capacity room " so it doesn't infringe any county/state rules on occupancy but it may be sensible to limit the number of rooms at anyone time that can be occupied by 5 people. Say for example, on a first come first served basis, only a maximum of 25 of the one bedrooms are allowed an extra guest. I don't think an extra 25-30 people in the resort is going to put a strain on the resources of the resort.

Pam does raise a point though (even somewhat tongue in cheek) that if a studio is OK for 4 people and a onebed is OK for 5, then logic says why isn't a 2 bedroom OK for 9 people?. If people were adult about the situation , then I think it could work, unfortunately my trust in some of my fellow man is such that leads me to believe there would always be people trying to sneak an extra in without paying , justifying that by bringing their own airbed they don't have to pay. ( Those people will do that anyway IMHO) It's a reasonable enough idea but IMHO it would be a nightmare to police efficiently.

John.Disney
02-18-2002, 08:10 AM
because I think the way Disney manages it now is okay. They could do a better job of policing those who <i>sneak</i> extra people in (if it is as rampant as I am led to believe by reading these boards), and also do a better job of explaining (to members and prospective members) what exactly the legal rights of the members and Disney are. I think adding a fee for over 4/4/8/12 (in a studio/1br/2br/gv) occupants in a room is perfectly reasonable as well. But option 4 in the poll in no good (IMO) because 5 shouldn't be "automatic", it should be at Disney's discretion (they need the flexibility to keep overall resort capacity under control).

If too many people begin requesting more than 4/4/8/12, Disney can respond by cracking down on guests who sneak in extra occupants (I believe in many cases they 'know where they are', furthermore, once word gets out that people are getting 'bumped' for unannounced geusts, the violations would decrease precipitously). If capacity is still a problem they can begin denying requests for more than 5/5/9/13. They can then begin denying 5 in a studio, 5 in a 1br, 9 in a 2br, and 13 in a gv, in that order.

I believe this is pretty much how they do things now, with an overall ideal resort capacity limit in mind. Unfortunately, the interests of Disney ($$$) and members (comfort) are not parallel in this case. But Disney knows what the resorts were built to handle and they are the only ones with enough information to determine what will and what will not create a strain on amenities or excessive wear and tear.

Disney will never <b>guaranty</b> members 5 in a 1br IMO, because they have zero incentive to do so. They already have the legal right to allow 5 in a 1br on a case by case basis at their own discretion. Why would they ever give up that flexibility?

John

mistermouse
02-18-2002, 08:49 AM
under current circumstances, the 1 BR villas are not designed for more than 4 and adjacent rooms would be subject to more disruption from the overcrowded units.

But the idea of some 1 BR units being refitted for a daybed and fifth guest may be a good one. These units could be in specific locations and primarily available by request. The added expense could be recouped by a $20/day charge. Guests staying in this section (the end of a wing, or a specific building, or only on the ground floor!) would be aware of the designation.

Roll-Aways are not realistically an option....too many logistics issues.

Until then 4/4/8/12 is the product purchased and expected.

CaptainMidnight
02-18-2002, 09:10 AM
Poll is a nice idea over the usual debate threads. Good point nothing is resolved.

I see that a large majority are OK with 5.

Perhaps that will deter future pointless debates.

firemankenpfd
02-18-2002, 09:33 AM
It may sound stupid now but think of the fire hazard with all the extra people in the resort if everyone brought an extra person. The resort is made to have a limited capacity. It would make evacuation very difficult...

Sorry its my job to think that way...

Fireman Ken

Chuck S
02-18-2002, 10:11 AM
Just a few figures....

Since 5 in a 1 bdrm puts that room at 20% over the 'Sleeps" rating capacity, I took what it would cost in points for 1 week in a 1 bdrm, and figured what 20% would be. Now, since point allotments don't change, the difference would need to be in cash. Figuring 20% of points needed for a 1 Bdrm for 1 week and multiplying that by $10 per point (the normal 'rental value') and dividing that by 7 days in the week, it works out to a charge of between $45 and $84 PER DAY depending on the season. This is based on OKW points, other resorts would be HIGHER. I was shocked.

pat-rick
02-18-2002, 11:07 AM
The results of the poll seems to favor allowing 5 in a one-bedroom. This would favor the family with 3 children or a tag along grandparent etc. for no or little additional cost without going to a two bedroom. It would seem better to pay cash for the additional service only if needed. An air mattress for the kids ( which I have read here many times ) to sleep on and paper / plastic ware for any meals should not be a problem and not change that supplied by DCV thus not causing any additional cost.

Of course, everyone needs to use good judgement for everyones benefit. The ones that are stretching the rules now will most likely stretch the rules in the future.

auntsue
02-18-2002, 11:51 AM
I like the idea of having a fifth place to sleep. Like Ripleysmom, we would like to have the option of taking our niece and nephew. They are way too old to sleep in the same bed (14 &16), and it is ridiculous to have to go for a 2BR for them to each have their own bed. I'm sure there are many other families in the same situation, and as the kids get older it will be a problem.When we have taken them down the shore, the condo we rented had 1 Queen bed in the BR, and in the living room it has a pullout sofa and a chair, similar in size to those in a 1BR living room, that opens up into a single bed. It is perfect. I'd like to see something like that. We have no children of our own, but my two sisters each have three and it is just not financially doable for them to have to get a 2BR when the deluxes allow 5 in one smaller room. I do not like the idea of a rollaway bed because they are very bulky and I'd prefer to not see them being rolled in and out of rooms all day long. Maybe when they get ready to refurbish, they can consider getting the kind of chair that converts to a single bed.

GCM13
02-18-2002, 12:05 PM
I voted for allowing 5 in a 1 bedroom, but not supplying towels, etc. I also agree with the person who said there should be an age limit to the fifth person (like age 10). We are a family of 5 and our youngest just turned 3 a couple months ago. We don't need all the room in a 2 bedroom. At OKW, there is plenty of room for the kids to sleep without them having to sleep with us (2 in the sofa bed and 1 on the loveseat). I didn't vote for having an extra charge for a rollaway bed, extra towels, etc. because we wouldn't really need the rollaway and I don't mind bringing along a couple extra towels if needed. We had five in a 1 bedroom at all three WDW DVC resorts and there were enough dishes for all of us. One last opinion, since member services is allowing 5 in a 1 bedroom, they should just make it official and stop the debate!

Eeyore2U
02-18-2002, 12:18 PM
Chuck,

Do your figures factor in the wear and tear on the common areas that will be affected? What others items should be factored into the equation? More staff? More elevator trips? More lifeguards? Increasing occupancy by 20% will have an impact on dues regardless of if there is a fee to do it.

BIERMUGG
02-18-2002, 12:33 PM
I voted for leave it as is. If Four in a One bedrom is enforced
Then for people with Five in a group they would need a two bedroom unit which is a one bedroom and a studio. Wouldn't this cause a shortage of studios for the people where a one bedroom is too big or too many points ?

5 Adults in a one bedroom should not be allowed at anytime but
DVC does allow for kids.

John.Disney
02-18-2002, 12:44 PM
GCM13,

<i>One last opinion, since member services is allowing 5 in a 1 bedroom, they should just make it official and stop the debate!</i>

Because when you put "5" in writing, everyone starts asking about "6". I think Disney has occupancy control right where they want it and they're not going to give up any of the flexibility they have built into the contracts by guarantying more than the minimum they can while still getting people to join.

John

Snowgod
02-18-2002, 12:52 PM
How about allowing extra person in a one beedroom but not a studio? You get two rooms so it would be less of a problem. I also think there should be a charge for the extra person.:smooth:

Chuck S
02-18-2002, 01:20 PM
Eeyore2u,

Actually, I know my figures are a little low, but I was trying to give a ball park estimate. You see 1 is 20% of 5, but you are actually increasing capacity by 25%. 5/4 = 1.25

Now, if you take 10315 (the number of pts required for a 1 bdrm for 1 year)/by 365 = 28.26 points per day per 1 bdrm average x .25 = 7.065 x $10, that would be $70.65 average per day per guest.

Seasonal averages based on 25% in 2002 OKW pts:

$56.00/day - Adventure (55 weekdays + 20 weekend = 75 days)
$61.30/day - Choice (48 + 19 = 67)
$72.36/day - Dream (49 + 23 = 72)
$77.33/day - Magic (93 + 36 = 129)
$104.32/day - Premier (16 + 6 = 22)

That is based on what is currently in the rooms, not a rollaway or extra day bed and linens.

Eeyore2U
02-18-2002, 01:22 PM
Thanks for doing the math. Again, my concern is for the not so obvious, fee increasing things that we don't see.

Sammie
02-18-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by robinb
I don't think the roll-out idea is a good one :(. Since none of the other Diseney resorts have roll-outs, I assume it's a company-wide decision to not offer them. Offering them at the Disney resorts would require a whole new policy on how to handle roll-outs, linens for roll-outs, storage for roll-outs, etc.

I also don't like the "official blind eye" to families who exceed the number of beds.

Instead, I think maybe more daybeds can be put in some 1 bedrooms and more studios. I read on the resorts boards that the day beds in the deluxe resorts will comfortably fit an adult. BTW, does anyone have picture of the "studio plus" at BWV? I'd like to see the size of the existing day bed.

actually Disney resorts do have roll away beds, they just don't advertise the fact. They are the same size as a twin bed.

ohiominnie
02-18-2002, 05:27 PM
I voted for #1...enforce the rules.

It's a slippery slope. If we make it alright to put 5 in a room meant for 4, then here on the DIS we'll all be debating about having 6 in that room. "It's just one more little body" Pretty soon no one will need a Grand Villa (except Richyams) because you'll be able to pack 12 in a 2-br! ;)

I feel that we all bought into DVC with the understanding that the limits were 4/4/8. People signed CONTRACTS saying they understood those limits. If someone needs to take someone else (a grandparent, a nanny, a child's friend, etc) then they need to use their points appropriately. If that requires banking, or borrowing, then so be it. We all need to make sacrifices for something we want....if we really want to take little Jimmy's friend then maybe we can't go to Disney for 2 weeks a year. Maybe next year it will only be a week.

I also agree with the fire situation. You get too many people evactuaing at one time and you end up with a Who concert situation (or just about any European soccer event) Also, who is going to be the first to sue Disney because they couldn't get past the roll away that was blocking the only path to the exit?

IMHO it also sets a very bad example for the children who are caught in the middle. We tell them over and over to tell the truth, but then lie about things to make it easier/cheaper/more convenient for ourselves (not me, and not necessarily YOU...but you know "those people" exist) I've seen several times in lines for theme parks or what not the parent coaching a child "now, remember Rachael...you're SIX...got that??" "no daddy, I turned SEVEN last November" "no honey...you're SIX. SIX I tell you!!!....HHMMMM...<pause> Honey...take Rachael over there while I buy the tickets."

Slippery slope.

Grateful11
02-18-2002, 07:50 PM
;) We have 4 in our family and our boys will be 12 and 13 on our next trip this summer. The last time it was the 4 of us, the foldout bed was just getting too small. So this year for their comfort we're going with a 2 Bdr. I'm an early riser 6-7am and this way I can get up and pretty much do what I like. It kind of puts us in a pinch though when we take my parents the boys end up back on the sofabed. I say make 5 a payable option but I don't think the extra body would be very comfortable or anyone on the sofabed for that matter.

CaptainMidnight
02-18-2002, 08:47 PM
The numbers still speak for themselves, 5 is still in the majority in the poll.

Looks like most people understand that an extra child in a one bedroom isn't really going to cause all these extreme cases that are being touted.

Some families have three children and don't need the full two bedrooms.

I hope the comments don't continue to push the extreme examples in support of either side of this issue and cause this thread to be closed and moved to the debate board.

Let's just let the poll take its course and see where it ends up.

Otherwise, strong opinions can be posted under this topic on the debate board.

Place your vote, and lets see the results.

DeeP
02-18-2002, 09:35 PM
BTW, does anyone have picture of the "studio plus" at BWV? I'd like to see the size of the existing day bed.
I don't have a picture of the BWV daybeds but I can tell you from staying in a BWV studio plus that the daybeds(they are not really daybeds, more like a small loveseat) are very small. They will only fit a small child (under 6-7).
We are a family of 3 (we are always under the DVC limit no matter what size unit we stay in) but my children are a boy and a girl who are teenagers, so I would love to see a nice sized daybed like they have at the Poly & Contemporary in a 1 BR DVC villa. This could possibly happen in a 1 BR at OKW due to the size, but where in the world would you fit a daybed or even a rollaway bed in a 1 BR at BWV, WLV or BCV???

ReneeQ
02-18-2002, 09:53 PM
I posted yesterday that I have a picture of the BWV daybed in the studio plus. We were there 1/25 - 1/30/02. My goddaughter is laying on the bed. She is 6 years old, 42 inches tall and weighs 41 pounds, so it gives you a good idea of the size of the bed. But I can't figure out how to post it. I have scanned the picture, but don't know how to attach it. If anyone is interested, please post instructions. Thanks!

Patpat15
02-18-2002, 09:53 PM
just don't want to feel like a criminal for sqeezing that last child into an obviously large enough space

Chuck S
02-18-2002, 09:54 PM
Capt Midnight, I think the "poll" is a little misleading...the majority are voting for 5 with an extra charge of $3 to $5....that isn't nearly enough, most hotels charge about 15% for an extra person.

If I could "legally" get 5 into a one bedroom for only $3, I'd vote for it, too.

brittsmum1998
02-18-2002, 10:12 PM
Very well said Capt Midnight!! :)

John.Disney
02-18-2002, 10:29 PM
<i>Let's just let the poll take its course and see where it ends up.

Otherwise, strong opinions can be posted under this topic on the debate board.

</i>


Good idea, here are the links...

I thought the matter was settled on the following thread. I have linked to where I believe the debate begins to settle with some good posts by 'fklhou'...

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140007&perpage=15&pagenumber=17

The thread died off as one side of the debate simply stopped responding, hence my mistaken assumption that things were settled. However, one of the same persons that stopped responding started up all over again on a different thread (linked from here)...

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53589&perpage=15&pagenumber=7

I hope some people at least go over and <i>read</i> fklhou's posts (and all the others for that matter) as I believe from a multitude of posts on both sides of the debate that many (if not most) people are not very clear on exactly what they are legally entitled to and limited to by their contracts, and what Disney in particular is <i>not</i> limited to.

If you <i>are</i> clear and fklhou and myself are wrong, please come over and explain how/why. You can even call me names and I promise not to respond with anything worse that dry sarcasm, thanks!

John

prplcrzy
02-19-2002, 02:03 AM
I voted for the keep the limit option, although I would be for allowing people to add a person if they paid $20-$25 per night extra, and the extra money went directly into the dues pool to cover extra wear and tear that others are concerned about. This seems fair because it would create more wear and tear, use amenities and towels, etc.

Caskbill
02-19-2002, 02:24 AM
Thanks CaptainMidnight and JohnDisney for reminding everyone to be careful not to get into debate mode.

Remember that when you start to offer counter-arguments to someone's post, then you're starting to get into debates.

Let's keep it to continue to be posts and explanations about your vote. If you feel the urge to argue the pros or cons of someone's remarks, follow JohnDisney's links over to the debate board and get into the action there.

So far I think this thread is staying within the 'special' rules that the DIS had to set on this sensitive topic. We haven't heard from Doc yet, so I believe that means no news is good news and that we're OK.

If you haven't voted yet, do so. For my part, when it seems everyone has pretty much voted, I will try to put together one of my statistical type analyses. I'll try to create a report using some type of matrix showing all the variations taking place within the voting. It might be enlightening, or it might not show anything. In any case it should prove interesting. As usual I will keep it as unbiased as possible.

<b>Also, a reminder of the poll guidelines:

1. We are considering 1-B/R units only, NOT studios. Studios would continue to be limited to 4 occupants in all cases.

2. We are not considering eventually going to 6 (or more) in a 1-B/R. Six or more will still require a 2-B/R, or GV.

3. We are considering ONLY the special case of 5 persons and what might or might not be members' preferences for this situation.</b>

<i>Raising questions such as costs; or does that mean allowing 9 in a 2-B/R; and statements such as age limits, etc, are all good points and I will try to summarize all this in the final report. Meanwhile if you want to argue or counter-argue any of these issues, hop over to the debate board and have fun.</i>

So far so good: 185 votes, 46 replies, and 1354 views, after only 36 hours.

rbuzzotta
02-19-2002, 08:07 AM
WOW!!! I just read some of the posts on the debate board!!! I'm staying clear of that one!!

As a family of 5 with 3 DD's 10 and under, I will have my first 2 BR stay this summer and I am looking forward to it!!

fklhou
02-19-2002, 10:00 AM
As John Disney has mentioned, this topic has been debated heavily on the debate board with John Disney making some excellant points on that debate. See http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53589&perpage=15&pagenumber=8

I like some flexibilty as to the number in a unit. We purchase the number of points that we have intending to use a two bed room for our family of five. However, I understand that not everyone can afford that many points and some accomadations should be made.

When we signed our DVC documents, we gave Disney a tremedous amount of discretion in how Disney runs the the DVC. I for one have been happy with the way Disney have utilitzed this discretioni.

Caskbill
02-20-2002, 02:57 PM
Bump

Just bumping to pg 1 for awhile in case anyone else wants to vote yet.

AZKathy
02-20-2002, 06:25 PM
I would vote for the additional person even if the price was raised from the quoted $3.00-$5.00 in the pole (number four) to even $20.00 night. Heck, I am paying $25.00 night at HRH for a roll away this summer!!!!

KNWVIKING
02-20-2002, 07:17 PM
.... but I think I'd want to know that at least one of the 5 is a child.

BUT, if people are already "sneaking" an extra person into the room and not paying anything extra,do we really think they are going to suddenly become honest and volunteer to pay extra ?!?!?

KNWVIKING
02-20-2002, 07:44 PM
... and would like to comment but I'm not trying to debate the 4 or 5 to a 1 br issue.

People have mentioned all the "extra" wear and tear this 5th person will cause & the dues could go up. Wellll... when a 2 br that sleeps 8 is used for only 5,should we expect our dues to drop because of underuse due to 3 less people ? I imagine that most of the times rooms are not used at max capacity. DVC is getting a bargain.

If all the 2 br are booked then groups of 5 will need either two studios or a 1 br & studio. Seems like that will eat up the availible studios- my personal room of choice. Maybe DW and I can't get a studio because a triplet convention is in town :-)

dbkelly
02-20-2002, 08:41 PM
I voted for #4. I understand why people who do not have a family of 5 would vote for #1, but it would be nice if people would be considerate of everyones needs since we are one community. Therefore, I think the idea of setting an age limit on the 5th person and having the family of five pick up the costs for a roll-away is a great compromise! I also don't like the idea of 2 adults and 3 teenagers staying in a one bedroom, because the suites are just not big enough. But, the suites are plenty big for 2 adults and 3 young children.

Werner Weiss
02-20-2002, 09:26 PM
Roll-aways don't make sense at OKW because the complex is huge and there are no elevators (except in three buildings). Getting the rollaways from a central storage facility (which, presumably, would first need to be built) into the OKW 1BR condos would be a major effort.

At the "hotel-like" DVC resorts (BWV, VWL, BCL), they would still need to build storage facilities for roll-away beds. And the squeezing a roll-away bed into the relatively small living rooms at those resorts would be a real challenge. With the fold-out sofa open, those living rooms don't have much free space. (This is not a criticism of the layout of the living rooms, but just a comment that they weren't designed with roll-aways in mind.)

Each resort would need to stock enough roll-aways to handle the maximum demand period for roll-aways -- and would need enough storage space to hold most of those roll-aways when demand is lowest.

Who is going to pay to build the storage facilities and the stock them full of roll-away beds?

I appreciate the spirit of this poll and discussion, but roll-aways aren't the easy answer that they might appear to be on the surface.

PamOKW
02-20-2002, 09:54 PM
Heck, I am paying $25.00 night at HRH for a roll away this summer!!!!

That's why I think $3-$5 is an unreasonable amount to expect to pay. The costs must be closer to $20+ since that's what most hotels charge for an additional person.

DVCDAVE
02-20-2002, 10:52 PM
Where is RICHYAMS when you need him !!!! Frankly, I am 100% against 5 in a studio under any circumstances PERIOD. I have deep concerns over fire issues and liability to the the DVC resort (ie: our DVC insurance&dues). This issue has been talked to death on these boards, frankly if you have a family of 5, buy more points and get a 2 BR unit, or bank or borrow points. It isn't our fault you decided to have a family of 5, so the burden is on you to raise and take care of YOUR family, not ours. If you can't afford to buy more points to enjoy your WDW vacation, then may I suggest a shorter one in a larger unit, just think of the money you'll save on food and park tickets !!!! I don't understand why people think that just because they have a large family, OR over invite guests, they feel they can ignore the rules and do whatever they want to accomondate themselves, with no regard to the rules. They were asked to READ the rules, and agree to them prior to purcase, so what gives ? Frankly, I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone agonizing over this issue, I find it redundant to no end. If money is the issue, it should have been thought of long before having the third child, or inviting the next guest, OR maybe think of buying a pup tent as there are plenty of camp sites waiting for you at Fort Wilderness for a fraction of a DVC night's stay.

I don't understand peoples infactuation with this topic,....does anyone on the resteraunt anddinning board post threads and polls about splitting a hot dog with two or more ???? Whats the deal ? a rule is a rule, cough up more money for points to get correct accomodations for your families' size or don't come.....period .

Werner Weiss
02-20-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by PamOKW
That's why I think $3-$5 is an unreasonable amount to expect to pay. The costs must be closer to $20+ since that's what most hotels charge for an additional person.
Comparing what a hotel charges with what a timeshare resort charges is not valid.

A hotel bases its prices on a hotel business model. We've gotten free roll-aways from full-service Marriott hotels and Courtyard by Marriott hotels. In that case, the business model says that by providing free roll-aways for children, the hotel can sell rooms to familes on weekends -- rooms that would otherwise sit empty.

Other hotels view roll-aways as revenue sources, allowing them to extract extra charges from guests, based not on actual cost, but on what the market will pay (which may be more or less than the actual costs incurred by the hotel).

My guess is that if DVC were to provide rollaways based on the actual cost of delivery to the condo, setup, removal from the condo, storage, as well as ammortization of the storage facility, the cost (and thus the price to the guest) would be fairly high -- especially at OKW where the labor of at least two people would be required for each delivery and removal.

I just don't think the DVC resorts at WDW lend themselves to roll-aways.

PamOKW
02-20-2002, 11:42 PM
Werner, I realize that we can't compare to a hotel but I don't have any basis on what the purchase, storage, replacement, etc. costs would be. It just seems that $5 doesn't buy much these days. I also agree it's impractical to expect rollaways on the upper floors at OKW. I still remember the housekeeper who once carried a new mattress for the sofa bed up the stair on her head, took my old one and carried it down! That was service!

DVCDave -- We are heading into that tired old debate mode here but....I agree with your basic sentiment. The rules are established -- it is up to Disney to be sure the resorts are run properly and make exceptions as they see fit. However, it is not incumbent on other members to provide ways for others to save money, bring extra guests, etc., etc.

Throwing out ideas and polling how folks feel makes for interesting discussion but it is still DVC who makes the final call.

ncligs
02-20-2002, 11:53 PM
I am in total agreement with DVCDAVE, members know the rules when they puchase into DVC.Rules are not made to be "Broken"!!!!!:D

vernon
02-21-2002, 05:53 AM
I agree that people should stick to the rules as they are at a particular time BUT that doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible to discuss a possible/hypothetical change about those rules. IF the rules were changed to allow 5 in a studio, because that was deemed in the interests of the membership, I wouldn't object and I don't think any sensible person would.Indeed in any sensible democracy the abilty to change rules and laws as they become obsolete or in need of improvement is a vital cog allowing that society to improve and evolve.

Voting to change the rules, is not the same as encouraging people to break the rules. JMHO

CaptainMidnight
02-21-2002, 05:55 AM
Disney allowing however many people into a room they wish isn't breaking the law or any DVC contractual agreement.

People need to read thier contract carefully, this hard and fast concrete rule they are trying to say is included, doesn't exist as one. It is up to Disney. You also have no knowledge of what fire limits the resorts were designed for.

Funny that some folks don't have any problem about breaking the discussion guidelines that were set up for this poll. It clearly asks that this not be a debate and some posts are clearly outside those guidelines.

This is a poll. And the poll is showing the strong majority of people are OK with Disney allowing 5 in a room (I interpret that one bedroom).

I think the poll is a great idea and can help put the discussion to rest. I guess some folks are just frustrated that the results of the poll aren't supporting thier view.

79 - no
160 - yes (with some stipulations)

Eeyore2U
02-21-2002, 06:51 AM
I think the poll is a great idea and can help put the discussion to rest. I guess your just frustrated that the results of the poll aren't supporting your view.

I think the poll, albeit a nice thought, gives people a false sense of hope. The bottom line is that the rules support my vote and the poll won't change the rules.

WebmasterDoc
02-21-2002, 06:51 AM
Please keep this discussion to the topic. As always, this has begun to drift towards personal comments and that won't be tolerated.

Thanks!

CaptainMidnight
02-21-2002, 08:17 AM
The bottom line is that the rules support my vote

People need to read thier contract carefully, this hard and fast concrete rule they are trying to say is included, doesn't exist as one. It is up to Disney. Please refer to the debate forum for details.

Richyams
02-21-2002, 08:18 AM
I think that it was Disney's and the salespeople's lust for sales that caused there to be a discrepency in the first place. I think Disney is wrong for lowering the value of my purchase by relaxing the rules so that they could get more sales.

I think the "under 3 in a porta-crib" is an acceptable exception to the occupany limt, but anything further than that does nothing but diminish the vacation experience we all bought.

And I still don't understand how "Sleeps 4" can be interperted as 5, 6, or 7 room occupants is fine.....but I guess that is what law school is for.

CaptainMidnight
02-21-2002, 08:20 AM
Please keep this discussion to the topic.

Thanks Doc. Advice taken.

DVCDAVE
02-21-2002, 10:46 AM
Under Florida Fire Code Law the resort is required to post a Map of the floor plan along with the fire exits clearly marked. I have seen in some states that they are also required to post the occupant limit for that room. I hadn't noticed during my visits if this is true for DVC or not. Has anyone noticed this posting in during their stay ? Ususally the posting is on the back of the enterance door.

I also agree with Eeyore2U. While this poll may show results that support for 5 or more in a studio, a rule is a rule. A civilazation without rules, is a civilaztion without the rule of law, and is not a civilaztion at all.

Somehow, we DVC members are supposed to feel that we should accomodate every families need. Frankly, I feel that it is the purchasers responsibility, not us DVC members, to assess their needs and buy an appropriate amount of points to accomodate those needs. One does not hold Volkswagon resposible when they buy a Beetle, and they have a family of six, why should DVC be any differant ?

CaptainMidnight
02-21-2002, 03:40 PM
One does not hold Volkswagon resposible when they buy a Beetle, and they have a family of six, why should DVC be any differant ?

Please take continuing debate responses to the debate board. The originator asked for this to be a poll, not a debate.

no - 84

Yes - 167 (with some stipulations)

Caskbill
02-21-2002, 06:15 PM
Rules ARE Rules

<b>If we agree on that point, then remember this:</b>

1. The rules of the DIS board specifically require that all debate on the 5-in a room question takes place on the DEBATE board.

2. The rules of this thread state that this is NOT to be a debate, or even a discussion (which quickly leads to debate) on other posters' remarks.

3. The rule of this thread is that it is a POLL to receive members' inputs or thoughts about 5-in a ONE-B/R unit. It has nothing to do with Studios or 2-B/R's, or with other NON-DVC hotels, Disney or otherwise.

4. This has nothing to do with the CURRENT DVC guidlines of 4/4/8/12. And DO NOT start analyzing the ongoing poll results to support anything one way or the other. That's debate!

<b>Remember you are debating if you do any of the following:</b>

1. You present your idea, thoughts, or concerns, and then give examples, or calculations, or whatever trying to support your argument. That's a debate, not an opinion. Having concerns about increased dues, or cost of a roll-away bed, or overcrowding are fine, but as soon as you start to make tables of calculations, or comparing to other hotels, or to other situations, you are presenting ARGUMENTS to support a case. And that is debating, and it simply encourages others to present COUNTER-ARGUMENTS, and then we're well into the debate mode.

2. If you as a poster, cut and paste someone else's remark, and then present an argument against it, you DEFINITELY have gone into a debate.

3. If you use the words "you" or "your" at all while refering to someone else's post, then you ARE DEBATING. It makes no difference if you are supporting their post, or opposing their post.

Thanks for your support on this. Yes, it's ONLY an OPINION poll, but it may present a good insight into members' personal feelings or concerns on this issue. AS MENTIONED BEFORE, when the poll has run its' course, I will create a Report of the findings and then we can debate that all we want....on the debate board, of course.

We went so long before Doc had to finally jump in. I don't think we'd get a 2nd warning. So bite your tongue, please, present your own opinion, and leave it at that.

We have our ground rules. Let's follow them!

CaptainMidnight
02-21-2002, 07:32 PM
Nice Job Caskbill. Thank you for the guidelines.

No - 86
Yes - 170

littlestar
02-21-2002, 10:59 PM
Hi.

We're new members.

I called member services this week to ask about if our daughters needed Old Key West IDs if they spend a night with us (they are staying at the All Stars - one with her show choir and the other with college girlfriends). Member Services told me to keep in mind that the night we stay in a one bedroom, five total can stay, but there's only bedding for four! So I took that to mean if I had three kids, make sure you bring a sleeping bag or something. (I've only got two kids).

CaptainMidnight
02-23-2002, 10:38 AM
no - 89

yes - 180 (with some stipulations)

Eeyore2U
02-23-2002, 11:51 AM
Captain, I repsect the math. There is a serious flaw in the representation of the poll imo.

brittsmum1998
02-23-2002, 01:08 PM
Where would the "serious flaw" be. It even gives the option of other......

Bill K
02-23-2002, 02:14 PM
The writing is on the wall !!:D

robinb
02-23-2002, 02:43 PM
I'm so not sure that the "Make 5 officially OK, but not supply any extra bedding or towels (basically you're on your own)" votes should be tallied in with the "Max 5" grouping. I'm not sure it belongs in the "Max 4" grouping either. Maybe it is 3rd option to itself.

My guess is these folks are the "live and let live" type and are uncomfortable with the strident wording of the first option ("Enforce" and "No Exceptions"). They don't want to change DVC to make it easier to fit 5 ("basically you're on your own"), but they can understand when someone stretches the rules when they have 3 kids (or a guest who invites another guest).

I personally voted in the "Other" category because I had an idea to throw out (a daybed), but I could have easily voted (1) if I was feeling inflexible at the time or (2) if I was feeling generous :).

Eeyore2U
02-23-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by brittsmum1998
Where would the "serious flaw" be. It even gives the option of other......

The flaw would be not asking are you willing to pay for the initial investment. Another flaw would be not asking if you would be willing to take an increase in dues. Another flaw was not to ask would it be worth $100/night. Another might be would you agree to relinquish your membership if got caught over the limit of 5.

Polls are flawed since you have limited choices even though the choice other exists..

CaptainMidnight
02-23-2002, 03:33 PM
I think we are getting into "Hairsplitting".

The wide margin in the poll clearly indicates the strong preferences from those taking the poll.

If it were very close, maybe hairsplitting interpretations would apply, but it is almost 2 to 1 in favor of 5 being OK (some with stipulations).

Eeyore2U
02-23-2002, 03:38 PM
I don't think it's hairsplitting. I think if you told me I could get something for basically free I'm more apt to go for it then if there is a realistic choice with the real options and real costs attached.

Do you want a Porsche. Yes!!!

Do you want to pay for a Porsche? Well, I guess not!!

But I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

CaptainMidnight
02-23-2002, 04:06 PM
Taking extreme examples and attempting to present them as analogies doesn't make or support a viewpoint. Many attempted analogies don't come close to having any applicability.

The poll speaks for itself, and that is what this thread is intended for.

"To exaggerate is to weaken."
Jean Francois de La Harpe, 1739-1803

AZKathy
02-23-2002, 04:11 PM
HRH is only charging $25/night for a roll a way. Maybe $100 is a tad bit too steep?

Eeyore2U
02-23-2002, 04:14 PM
But for DVC, it would entail purchase, storage, upkeep. Also figure in possible extra staff, wear and tear on the resort. Early in the thread someone made the statement that DVC would need to have enough to cover all units that could request a rollaway. There is a substantial cost to this.

CaptainMidnight
02-23-2002, 04:19 PM
"Beware the tyranny of the minority."

- Latin Proverb

WebmasterDoc
02-23-2002, 05:12 PM
Last warning. Please keep to the topic of the poll!!

dvcer97
02-23-2002, 09:27 PM
I vote #1 because if they change and allow 5 then you hear people trying to get 6 in a room. Nope. not for me I always get a larger size unit isn't that the reason you bought a TS so that you have a choice of what size based on how many?
Jackie

eva
02-24-2002, 07:08 AM
I voted for DVC to enforce the 4 in a 1-bedroom policy. I doubt if this poll will ever get DVC to actually change the policy. Isn't the room occupancies part of the actual contract? Have they ever changed the actual contract before? I know that they have the right to, but have they ever done it? I'm still trying to figure out how a roll away could be delivered to upper floors at OKW, Vero, or HH. I seriouly doubt if DVC will start offering roll aways since they can not be delivered to every room at every resort and no one is guaranteed a 1st floor room. Also, who would pay for the initial purchase, storage, and linens for the roll aways? I have seen a number of members post at different times that the condition of their room was not up to their standards. If DVC starts allowing extra people in a room then the wear and tear of the rooms will likely increase.

MaryAnnDVC
02-24-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by DVCDAVE
frankly if you have a family of 5, buy more points and get a 2 BR unit, or bank or borrow points. It isn't our fault you decided to have a family of 5, so the burden is on you to raise and take care of YOUR family, not ours. If you can't afford to buy more points to enjoy your WDW vacation, then may I suggest a shorter one in a larger unit...I don't understand why people think that just because they have a large family, OR over invite guests, they feel they can ignore the rules and do whatever they want to accomondate themselves, with no regard to the rules. They were asked to READ the rules, and agree to them prior to purcase, so what gives ? ...Whats the deal ? a rule is a rule, cough up more money for points to get correct accomodations for your families' size or don't come.....period . I agree! I voted for #1. And I have a family of 5. I also pay full adult prices for my older kids at a buffet, even when they only eat the macaroni and cheese :rolleyes:, and I don't lie about my kids ages for tickets, even though I think it's a drag that my 11 and 13 year olds are considered adults (which THEY thinks is pretty cool...they're not paying for it! ;) ).

Regarding the poll...I understand the moderators/admistrators/webmasters establishing the rules of posting, but a thread starter or other posters deciding what responses are appropriate/inappropriate, or constitute debate?? I can recall numerous times when I'd like to dictate how someone responds to what I have to say, but... ;) Seems to me that justifying one's poll choice is sometimes going to involve disagreeing with another's choice. JMO

I never thought of DVC as a democracy. I wouldn't want others who choose not to follow the rules to have the power to change them when they are rules that everyone understood (or should have understood) when they signed, just as I did. I don't think the poll shows anything except that people want to pay less. If you take a poll on whether 11/13 year olds should be considered adults for tickets, or a 10 year old should be charged adult prices at a buffet, let me guess which way it would go. But what it comes down to is that we know the prices, and we choose to eat or not eat somewhere based on how WE value the experience as presented to us. (I know someone is going to say that this discussion isn't about dining/tickets/etc...but I'm just making an analogy.)

When we purchased DVC, we purchased enough points to stay at BWV in a 2BR every year during a particular (low points) week; we take the kids out of school for a week. As my oldest enters high school next year, we have to wonder how long we can keep this up. The ONLY options we've considered are 1) staying for less time in a 2BR during a higher points period 2) NOT going every year and banking/borrowing points 3) splitting our stay. It's what we agreed to when we signed on.