Do you think Disney makes money on the Fort?

[Katie Dawn]

So, when I first found out Disney had a campground I was thrilled.

I realized I was surprised Disney had a campground because I didn't view a campground as a super profitable business for Disney. (It's not that I don't think that campgrounds can be profitable, I just thought that Disney would probably make more profit on a hotel)

I know that Disney is a for-profit company, and while that fact may not be very important to any of us it is always going to be important for them.

Don't get me wrong ... I was really happy about the very existence of FW, and made reservations very soon after finding out about the Fort. I am so excited about our trip and feel like I have kinda "fallen in love" with FW before even going there. I just thought it probably wasn't a big money maker for Disney. After all, they don't charge nearly as much for the sites as they do for the hotel rooms.

But then it occurred to me that Disney might actually do really well profit-wise at the Fort. Their overhead has got to be really low. For each "room" (aka: campsite) Disney shells out very little for electricity/water, pays much less in staffing "mousekeepers," and the "maintenance" is probably about the same price or even cheaper (i.e. clearing out brush vs. installing new carpets). I wondered if maybe Fort Wilderness is actually a big money maker.

I do know that campers are less likely to buy as much food while on property, which cuts into the amount of money Disney brings in; that's another factor to consider.

So what do you think? Do you think the Fort is somewhat profitable or quite profitable for Disney? There may be some of you who read this and think, "Who cares!" but I know there are probably also some of you out there who think about stuff like this too. (I don't know why I'm always thinking about stuff like this ... I think it's partially my degree in psychology ... I'm always wondering what "motivates" people)

I can absolutely see why Disney opened the Fort in the 70's. But why do you think Disney has decided to KEEP it open? Profit? It gives Disney a "outdoorsy/country" aspect (like HDDR and campfire)? They figure they'll get people that wouldn't normally stay on property to stay at the Fort? They know they have a loyal following and will always be able to "maintain" a certain level of visitors?

I know that we're not going to come up with a definitive answer here, I'm just curious to hear your opinions.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!!! popcorn::

[kimluvswdw]

Have you seen the price of beer at the fort? Profit, Oh Yeah!:lmao:

[Katie Dawn]

Have you seen the price of beer at the fort? Profit, Oh Yeah!:lmao:

Ah ha! We've solved the mystery ... Disney decided that the solution to the problem could be found in beer.

There are many who have come to the same conclusion about beer. ;)

[des1954]

Ah ha! We've solved the mystery ... Disney decided that the solution to the problem could be found in beer.

There are many who have come to the same conclusion about beer. ;)


Beer can be the solution to many, many problems!!

http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg-tn.jpg (http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg.jpg)

[Disney Campers]

I'd like to think it is "some What" profitable, comparing campsites to hotel rooms you probably make a lot more on rooms. the fort is very big and takes a lot of cast members to maintain, look at all the busses dedicated just to the fort for example - that's got to be expensive. because of the size of the fort most cast members need transportation.. cars, trucks, vans and specialty carts for the site crews etc.

As far as departments in side of Fort Wilderness I'm guessing the bike barn is most profitable, those electric carts probably have a very short ROI period.

I'd like to think the Fort was Walt's idea and would be sacred, keeping the number crunchers at bay.

Profitability is probably why another campground has not been opened on property - hard to justify when the hotels make more money

[Thumper_ehhhhh]

The Fort makes money. There primary goal along with the value resorts are not to make the money off of you at the hotel or campsite. It's to get you there and spend the money in the Parks. With that said. There is no house keeping as you have your own trailer. No laundry to clean. Yes they make alot of money off those golf carts and rentals. Yes they have other stuff like buses but in the big picture you can spend alot more money than someone who is flying. Your not limited on space as much. We spend alot more when we drive verses flying. When a site is empty there is no extra cost to them other than a empty site. When a room is empty thats a bigger loss. Not that there is alot of empty spots anywhere at Disney for to long.

[HappyDznyCamper]

I can absolutely see why Disney opened the Fort in the 70's. But why do you think Disney has decided to KEEP it open?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts!!! popcorn::

Why has Disney kept the Fort open? Simple economics of supply and demand. There as always been a demand for camping spaces and now even for cabins. If you look at some old FW maps you will see that it has indeed grown over the years. Many regulars report that it is hard to get sites these days. So as long as the Fort is "full" it will continue.

P.S. Hi from west Knox

[Katie Dawn]

Thanks for replying... you've brought up some new aspects I hadn't thought of (the cost of bus transportation, empty sites being cheaper than empty rooms, and the idea that the Fort might remain in part because it was Walt's "baby").

I also had thought that because demand seems to be so high Disney may have a "if it ain't broke don't fix it attitude." In other words, it might not be making a ton of profit -- but it is definitely consistent.

Any other thoughts?

P.S. Hi from west Knox

Maggie, hello from West Knox to you too. ;)

[Colson39]

I can almost guarantee you that Disney would not run a resort that was not profitable, I'm pretty sure they make a pretty penny on the Fort. Maybe even an ugly penny.

Sure, it's probably not as profitable as a hotel room, but it still makes money.

[Gatordad]

How is it not as profitable as a hotel room? Your capital costs will kill you on a hotel room. For $80 a night, they give you water, electric and a hole in the ground. And that's not counting the people that are doleing out $300+ for a singlewide covered with wood.

They make a boatload of cash on FW.

[Colson39]

Well, depends on the hotel room. If we're talking All Star, it might be. If we're talking Grand Floridian, I highly doubt it. And with the cabins, those are basically hotel rooms so they of course make lots of profit.

The Fort probably has a profit margin comparable to the value/moderate resorts. You're right that the costs of the footage of a hotel room are more compared to an empty plot of land.

[Bunchkin]

I'm positive they are making a profit.

We just plunked down a bunch of loot to stay in a cabin and to have a golf cart for 6 days.
And we were happy to do it I might add!!! :goodvibes

The loop we were in, 2800, was packed when we were there. I don't think there was a single cabin empty that I noticed. Maybe one or two on our last day.

[Minnie's Mate]

I don't see how you can compare a value resort room to a Ft. Wilderness camp site. With the exception of value season, the price of a preferred site is about 75%, or more, of that of a Value Resort room and you furnish all of the accommodations, linens, house keeping, and clean the site when you leave!--alright, they blow it off with a leaf blower, but they don't use a vacuum cleaner or mop in the bathroom or clean the shower and vanity...what shower and vanity.

Yes, they make money and plenty of it. One way to look at it is they make money off of every family that stays on site and in many instances the families that stay at Ft. Wilderness might not be able to stay on property if they didn't have FW to stay at and that would mean that accommodation expense would be going to KOA-Kissimee or one of the other local camp grounds. If campers are going to Disney they might as well stay on property and pay that money to Disney!

[bigdisneydaddy]

Beer can be the solution to many, many problems!!

http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg-tn.jpg (http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg.jpg)



Beer makes people smarter, girls prettier, campfires warmer, bigdisneydaddys happy and on and on.......

Back the original topic....... the mere fact that FW still exists today is proof of its profitability, Disney doesnt hang on to things they cant make money on.

Scott

[parrothead365]

I'm sure they make money. I learned a long time ago not to get between Mickey and a dollar.

[mousebrain]

I have done the math also, and it is not all that cheap to camp at Ft. Wilderness if you get a preffered site. An All-stars room is not that much more at all. We can fit the whole crew on one site (7 people) were in most cases we would have to rent 2 rooms. We are primarily in the parks all day anyway, it doesn't make sense to spend alot on a room that we won't be hardly in anyway. So the money we save on not having 2 rooms allows us to afford the dining package! So preferred site plus dining package plus tickets..... times 4 kids and 1 junior and 2 adults, yep they make money. But on the other hand, they spend alot also.... keeping the boats floating has got to cost, in addition to the busses. That is the best secret about the fort is access to the boats. SSSHHHH!!

plus $9 for a pint of tequila......

Hey ya all!
Peace!

Mousebrain

:hippie: :hippie: princess: princess: princess: princess: princess:

[Katie Dawn]

Great discussion!

I definitely agree that if Disney was not making profit the Fort would be scrapped. :guilty:

But obviously it IS making money, because it's still around. I just have wondered if it was a moderate money maker or a pretty good money maker.

I don't suppose we can say it's a windfall, because as a PP said, if they made tons of money you know that Disney would have several campgrounds! They have to do okay though.

And I'm glad -- cause we all get to go! :)

Everyone have a great rest of your week!

[clkelley]

Who knows what the actual dollar values are. On the same square footage as a campsite, they can put 3 All-Star Rooms (3 stories to the building) or 4 Pop Century rooms (4 stories to the building), however, then you have to subtract housekeeping for 3 or 4 rooms each day, towels, linens, soaps, shampoos for 3 or 4 rooms each day. They only clean the sites at the end of each stay. (Do they also give them a once over if it has been empty for a few days before someone checks in??) The only daily cleaning is 20 some odd bath houses and laundry rooms. As far as "Walt" things being sacred, I'm afraid there are very few "Walt" things that are regarded as sacred any longer.

I dunno, but I'm glad it's there!!!

[ftwildernessguy]

For gross revenue, I'm sure any of the other resorts will easily top the Fort. I would not be surprised, however, if FW comes closer to the top when you look at gross vs. net.

[Sammi2]

The A/C bill alone for the resort hotels must be mind numbing.

I think it also goes into the elastic vs. inelastic economics concepts. My vacation budget is relatively inelastic. I will spend about the same amount on vacation, regardless of whether it's weighted towards hotel costs or weighted towards being able to buy more junk and buy higher priced entrees for dinner (and a few more beers). Its inelasticity is also seen in the number of times I might go on a certain vacation, or the length of time I stay. I'll stay longer if I'm at the fort vs at a hotel, thus going to the park more often and buying more food overall.

My basic premise is as others have stated. Its making money or it wouldn't be there.

[des1954]

Disney code of business ethics:

If it don't make money, get rid of it!!

It isn't a coincidence that Mickey, Mouse & Money all start with "M"!!

[Mr Man]

For gross revenue, I'm sure any of the other resorts will easily top the Fort. I would not be surprised, however, if FW comes closer to the top when you look at gross vs. net.

Agreed. From what info I can glean from the Disney shareholders info packs, Disney Theme Parks and Resorts have a target ROI of 21%. It appears they meet and exceed this pretty regular nowadays.

I would love to see EBITA info broken down by resort/cost center (but that's just the nerd in me talking.......). I was once told by someone better informed than me that Disney runs their resorts and parks as independent cost centers. Perhaps this explains why some resorts get refurbed more often than others........hmmmm.....

[Katie Dawn]

Allright, this is what I'm talking about!

Clearly many of you have a much more sophisticated understanding of business/financial concepts than I do, but I think I'm getting the general idea here, and you are making very good points.

I'm enjoying everyone's comments! :)

[BigDaddyRog]

Its costing me, the barely Average Joe striving to keep ends meeting, over $4000 for 7 nights in a cabin with a family of 6 plus an infant. And that doesnt include souvenirs, golf cart,or any other odd expenses like gas to and from New Orleans. Its taken me 5 yrs to get around to saying I guess we can afford another trip, lets do it. If it werent for FW, I would never be able to aford to stay on disney grounds, i'd have to get two value resort rooms (have you read the reviews???), or a suite at a resort & I could never afford that. Disney knows us AvgJoes have SOME kind of change, and if they cant provide me with an affordable option....some crappy motel/hotel chain gets my business. That would mean that Id most likely wait till we were on our way back to the hotel to get dinner, instead of buying the Dining Plan, and why would I need to spend an extra 300 on a cart If I werent wanting the whole camping experience. Any profit is good profit...every penny counts.......and they ARE getting quite a few shiney pennies, at least by MY budget. If you're going to empty out pockets, you might as well empty out EVERY pocket...even the ones that are only half full. If you can take all of a mans money and have him walk away with a smile, he'll be back to give you his next paycheck as well. Oh, and Im thrilled to the bone about giving them my hard earned money, I cant wait to get there.:woohoo:


Des1954....you're getting there 3 days before me, have you been in December before? Should we pack shorts and Tees? Or would jogging suits be smarter?

[Colson39]

The All Star really isn't that bad, we stay there at least once a year, if you're not planning on spending a lot of time in your room it really is a great deal :) Although if you have to get two rooms, that kind of evens out the cost.

[ntsammy5]

For gross revenue, I'm sure any of the other resorts will easily top the Fort. I would not be surprised, however, if FW comes closer to the top when you look at gross vs. net.

Correctomundo FWGUY. Capital costs for the hotels are huge as is the depreciation -- very little capital expense for FW. Also, add revenues from HDDR and MBYBBQ (or whatever the letters are) -- they have to have those at an outdoor venue and I'm sure it's a huge amount. They're always packed!

I also agree that -- BEER IS GOOD, especially when you're camping, watching football, watching other sports, eating lunch, dinner or breakfast -- pick one or all three, for a snack, when you're sitting watch the dog snore, or anytime at all for no reason at all. Do they still sell Grolsch at the Trading Post? I need to look next time.

:dance3: :dance3: :dance3: :dance3: :dance3:

[ntsammy5]

Des1954....you're getting there 3 days before me, have you been in December before? Should we pack shorts and Tees? Or would jogging suits be smarter?

I'll answer for her but I'm sure she'll add her $.02 worth later. Definitely bring the shorts and Ts. She's been a lot more than I have (she lives 20 min away) but December can range from cool to HOT! So better bring both, but you'll use shorts and Ts a lot! :)

[des1954]

Des1954....you're getting there 3 days before me, have you been in December before? Should we pack shorts and Tees? Or would jogging suits be smarter?

Actually, I'm a Floridian & live only 30 miles from the Fort, so yes, I've been there in December :rotfl: !

The weather in December is usually very mild, but you can get fooled, too! Your best bet is to get a long range weather report from one of the following news websites:

www.myfoxtampabay.com (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com)

or

www.tbo.com (http://www.tbo.com)

These are both stations out of Tampa, but their radar includes the Disney area. I'm sorry that I don't know the names of the Orlando stations - maybe someone else here does.

I'd bring mostly shorts & tees, a light weight hoodie (those boat rides can be rather chilly),one or two pairs of jeans, and ponchos. Of course you may also want to bring:

http://www.compactappliance.com/images/us/local/products/viewlarger/DKC645BLS_vl1.jpg

When we get checked in on 11/29, I'll post our site number. I usually try to get 1100 or 1700 loops. (keepin' my fingers crossed). Maybe we can arrange a "meet & greet" with other Dis-er's!!! ntsammy5 (my brother) will be arriving on 12/1 & staying with us for the week. Should be a lot of fun to meet other Disney Nuts!!!:grouphug: :dance3: :dance3:

[ntsammy5]

Maybe we can arrange a "meet & greet" with other Dis-er's!!! ntsammy5 (my brother) will be arriving on 12/1 & staying with us for the week. Should be a lot of fun to meet other Disney Nuts!!!:grouphug: :dance3: :dance3:

Actually, I'm coming on Friday, 11/30. Hope that's not a problem. See you then!

[Camping Cat]

Des1954....you're getting there 3 days before me, have you been in December before? Should we pack shorts and Tees? Or would jogging suits be smarter?

We've been going in December for many years now. All I can say is be prepared for anything. Bring the shorts and tees but also bring jeans and sweatshirts. The last few years we've had some pretty chilly weather....froze to death at the campfire. :)

BTW, hi neighbor! Have you lived in Mandeville long? I mean, pre K or post K?

[BigDaddyRog]

BTW, hi neighbor! Have you lived in Mandeville long? I mean, pre K or post K?
Well HELLO THERE!!! W'yat?? I've been in Mandeville since about 2002, so well pre-katrina, but I was born and grew up in Metairie, and lived in Kenner for a few years before going to the northshore, and I've worked in the french quarter for the past 18-20 yrs, the last 8 of those years actually on Bourbon St....so with all that debauchery and wildness...the innocence and magic of disney is very inviting!!! This is my first trip as a GRAMPAW(grandpaw to those non-n'awleanians), cant wait to see those new set of eyes light up when he see's Mickey for the first time!!! This is also my first trip with another male in the family besides me....I have 4 daughters, and my wife is terrified of any rides that go faster than 2 miles an hour....so Ive been princessed and small world'd to death on my last four trips, but now, me & the grandson are gonna show these pansy women how to party!!! Umm...hes only 6 months old and Im 39....but we'll find a bridge for that generation gap at disney for sure!!

[Gatordad]

Hey! take it to email.

[Camping Cat]

Hey! take it to email.

Take what to email?

[Shorty82]

Take what to email?

I'm thinking he means the personal, off-topic discussion that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[Gatordad]

si

[JCJRSmith]

Disney code of business ethics:

If it don't make money, get rid of it!!

It isn't a coincidence that Mickey, Mouse & Money all start with "M"!!


Just looking at the corporate financials, the Europe and Hong Kong parks are bleeding money.

[Gatordad]

I'm not doubting you on that, but I think their sunk costs in the form of building the parks is so high, they can't pull the plug. It's not like you can sell a theme park as big as a Disney one.

[Colson39]

Walt Disney World keeps Disney afloat for the most part. If they lost Walt Disney World, they would be in a world of hurt. That's pretty much easy to figure out though, it's obviously their bread and butter and jam and whatever else you want to put on it.

[ftwildernessguy]

That's for sure.

[Camping Cat]

I'm thinking he means the personal, off-topic discussion that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I knew exactly what he meant. I just found it amusing how black the pot was when it was talking to the kettle. :-/

[kc5grw]

have you been in December before? Should we pack shorts and Tees? Or would jogging suits be smarter?

Definitely pack cold weather clothing, especially for the kiddos. We have been there twice in the winter, Mar 1998 and Dec 2003 and both times it was unseasonably cool and unforecast. Temps dropped into 30's on one trip and low 40's on the other. It can be pretty miserable if you're unprepared. Until our trip this past June my wife was convinced that it was never warm in Florida.

And to keep it more or less on topic. Yes, I think Disney makes a reasonable profit on the campground. I just booked a preferred site for 12/19/2008 - 12/31/2008 that will cost $99.67/night. Yup, I think they're making some money there. But as BigDaddyRog said, I'll be happy to pay it.

[Colson39]

Definitely pack cold weather clothing, especially for the kiddos. We have been there twice in the winter, Mar 1998 and Dec 2003 and both times it was unseasonably cool and unforecast. Temps dropped into 30's on one trip and low 40's on the other. It can be pretty miserable if you're unprepared. Until our trip this past June my wife was convinced that it was never warm in Florida.


That's just a weather trick we use to make sure that EVERYONE doesn't move to Florida ;)

[GreatLakes5]

Considering the mom & pop KOAs we often stay in at least throw in a free hotdog or cup of coffee I'm going to jump on the "heck yeah they make money" bandwagon (or travel trailer...whatever is being jumped on)

A Disney was on Fox Business last night discussing the business of Disney Philantropy....I'm thinking Philantropy should begin at home....or at least at the campground....:)

[Lil Connor]

Beer can be the solution to many, many problems!!

http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg-tn.jpg (http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg.jpg)

Beer, the cause and solution to all of life's problems!:cheer2:

[big kahuna1]

It's about time this thread got back on topic...Did someone say BEER?


http://fatdaddy.smugmug.com/photos/63277846_F8Ufz-L.jpg

[ntsammy5]

how thess threads come back to life when someone mentions beer

[BigDaddyRog]

Hey! take it to email.

These were Gatordads FIRST words to me on these boards....who would have guessed I'd end up thinkin he was such a great guy!!??!!:goodvibes

[ntsammy5]

These were Gatordads FIRST words to me on these boards....who would have guessed I'd end up thinkin he was such a great guy!!??!!:goodvibes

:lmao: :lmao:

Is that what you really think, Rog? Come on, you can be truthfule here!

:lmao: :lmao:

[F4disneyfan]

I am willing to bet they make more money on the fort than almost all other resorts.

[MomofPirate&Mickey]

[QUOTE=des1954;21163601]Actually, I'm a Floridian & live only 30 miles from the Fort, so yes, I've been there in December :rotfl: !

The weather in December is usually very mild, but you can get fooled, too! Your best bet is to get a long range weather report from one of the following news websites:

www.myfoxtampabay.com (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com)

or

www.tbo.com (http://www.tbo.com)

These are both stations out of Tampa, but their radar includes the Disney area. I'm sorry that I don't know the names of the Orlando stations - maybe someone else here does.

I'd bring mostly shorts & tees, a light weight hoodie (those boat rides can be rather chilly),one or two pairs of jeans, and ponchos. [QUOTE]

Try www.myfoxorlando.com, www.wesh.com or www.local6.com. these are all Orlando Stations.

We went to Disney & stayed at Pop Century this past Christmas:santa: , there were a couple of days where you had to wear sweatshirts. It was down right cold those days:scared1: , but most of the time, it was beautiful:thumbsup2 . Just layer for cool mornings & evenings and then t-shirts for day time. Or plan on going back to your site towards evening to get warmer clothes:idea: . Jan & Feb usually will get colder than Dec.;) Looking forward to getting to the Ft. in May!!:dance3: :woohoo:

[ftwildernessguy]

[QUOTE=des1954;21163601]Actually, I'm a Floridian & live only 30 miles from the Fort, so yes, I've been there in December :rotfl: !

The weather in December is usually very mild, but you can get fooled, too! Your best bet is to get a long range weather report from one of the following news websites:

www.myfoxtampabay.com (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com)

or

www.tbo.com (http://www.tbo.com)

These are both stations out of Tampa, but their radar includes the Disney area. I'm sorry that I don't know the names of the Orlando stations - maybe someone else here does.

I'd bring mostly shorts & tees, a light weight hoodie (those boat rides can be rather chilly),one or two pairs of jeans, and ponchos. [QUOTE]

Try www.myfoxorlando.com, www.wesh.com or www.local6.com. these are all Orlando Stations.

We went to Disney & stayed at Pop Century this past Christmas:santa: , there were a couple of days where you had to wear sweatshirts. It was down right cold those days:scared1: , but most of the time, it was beautiful:thumbsup2 . Just layer for cool mornings & evenings and then t-shirts for day time. Or plan on going back to your site towards evening to get warmer clothes:idea: . Jan & Feb usually will get colder than Dec.;) Looking forward to getting to the Ft. in May!!:dance3: :woohoo:

What does this have to do with beer????

[ftwildernessguy]

These were Gatordads FIRST words to me on these boards....who would have guessed I'd end up thinkin he was such a great guy!!??!!:goodvibes

I remember reading that reply and thinking "this guy must be a real doofus." I was right, but since I am a real doofus, too, we have gotten along just fine.

[BigDaddyRog]

:lmao: :lmao:

Is that what you really think, Rog? Come on, you can be truthfule here!

:lmao: :lmao:

Pete's hilarious..............now that I know his personality! I admit, at first I thought he was just an old, grumpy fart....now I KNOW he's an old grumpy fart!!! But so am I, so its OK!:thumbsup2

[PolynesianPixie]

This is not the camping board. It is the old grumpy drunk fart board. No wonder I fit in so well.

[OK GRUMPY]

This is not the camping board. It is the old grumpy drunk fart board. No wonder I fit in so well.
WOW! I knew I found HOME!!:rotfl2:

[MomofPirate&Mickey]

What does this have to do with beer????[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. I was answering another question that was there before all you yahoos started getting into the beer thing..... It was asked about camping in Dec at the Ft. after all.....

[big kahuna1]

Did someone say BEER again? :confused3

[bigdisneydaddy]

December is a month for wild swings in the temp in Florida, we have been 4 of the last 5 years and learned early that you need to be prepared for everything. I have worn my winter jacket, gloves and hat on one day and my swintrunks the next day.
In reality a "cold" day in Florida is mild for us.

Scott

[des1954]

http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg-tn.jpg (http://www.straubs.net/images/biergart/Heidelberg.jpg)

Beer is a wonderful thing!!

BTW: For those of you under 50.... you don't qualify to be an old fart! Ya'll are just lil' toots (or FITs - farts in training)!!!

"Come back when you grow up girl (guy)"!:rolleyes1

[ftwildernessguy]

December is a month for wild swings in the temp in Florida, we have been 4 of the last 5 years and learned early that you need to be prepared for everything. I have worn my winter jacket, gloves and hat on one day and my swintrunks the next day.
In reality a "cold" day in Florida is mild for us.

Scott

You know, I have found that beer is good no matter what the outside temperature is.

[RvUsa]

Beer, cools you in the summer, warms you in the winter, and refreshing all the time...

Beer, it's not just for breakfast any more.

[ntsammy5]

Beer, it's not just for breakfast any more.

Gee. I say that to DS at Bills tailgate parties at 8:00 AM. He agrees!