Need your opinion: DX/APS-C versus full frame DSLR's [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

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H.E. Pennypacker

09-13-2007, 07:03 PM

So I've decided I want to upgrade my DSLR within the next few months. At first I thought I had settled on the D300, but then in my research, I came upon a comparison of small-format DSLR's versus full frame DSLR's. The info and sample photos I saw kind of started pointing me toward a full-frame DSLR. No way can I afford a Nikon D3, but the Canon 5D might be within my grasp. Looking for your thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of full frame DSLR. Also, I've always owned Nikon SLR's, so would appreciate opinions on what I'd gain and/or lose moving to Canon.

Master Mason

09-13-2007, 07:29 PM

gains
1. You'll get better low light performance
2. You'll get better background blur on your wide apeture pictures
3. Some will say you get a richer picture
4. You no longer will have to hear about conversion factors
5. You'll get a pretty solidly built camera in the 5D
6. You get to learn to love Canon lenses
7. I wide angle lens will be a really wide angle lens.

Losses
1. You'll lose the use of whatever lenses you currently have
2. You will lose the crop factor on your lenses, so if you like long zoom, you'll need bigger more expensive lenses
3. You will have to learn the canon menus so you'll have a larger learning curve.
4. The canon uses CF cards, so you'll have to replace your memory as well.
5. You'll have to live with the limitations that the 5D has, such as slow frames per second.

The 5D is a very nice camera although getting a little long in the tooth for a digital model. With the release of the new 1series full frame, I would expect an updated 5d in the next release wave.

Karrie Davis

09-13-2007, 07:30 PM

Master Mason

09-13-2007, 07:38 PM

most non pro users or even pros on vacation shoot in program/auto mode. If you are the general user that is not a pro in a studio or location session it really will not make a difference in your photos.

I compleately disagree with this statement, I know a hell of a lot of amature photographers that never shoot in program/auto, if your using your camera, it will make a difference.

MarkBarbieri

09-13-2007, 08:42 PM

Well, for professional photographers... They like full frame for depth of field. The depth of field only comes with understanding fully how to shoot in manual mode and the differences between f1.8 vs f22, most non pro users or even pros on vacation shoot in program/auto mode.
Don't discount the ability of amateur shooters. My wife knows very little about cameras. She does know to use AV mode to control DOF. She knows that low numbers mean shallow DOF and high numbers mean large DOF. It didn't take her any time to pick it up. Her choices aren't always optimal, but they're usually better than full auto and definitely better than any p&s. I don't think ever shoots in manual, but that's really not necessary for the shooting she does.

If you are the general user that is not a pro in a studio or location session it really will not make a difference in your photos.
My experience is different. I think that an amateur with just a few hours of practice will get much better pictures from a D300 or 5D with good glass than they could from any p&s. The difference will range from small to astounding.

Oh- if you like 4x6 print right out of your camera too because You will NOT get the 4x6 print without cropping it with a full frame camera.
I'm not sure that I understand this. You can print a 4x6 directly from a full frame camera just as easily as you can from any cropped camera. Why would it be any different? I suppose that having too much resolution could confuse a poorly designed printer driver. If that's the case, you could shoot in RAW+JPG and set the JPG to small.

I have a d300 pre-ordered and think it will be a great camera for my work but I never take this type of camera around for normal everyday stuff. I have a great P&S I love. It got the best ratings for a P&S by dp review and I tested the heck out of it. Sharp images, no shutter lag, it is almost like a baby dslr but with out the bulk :) It is the The Fujifilm F50fd that just replaced the f31 - WOW!!!!

I am a working photographer who owns a successful studio - I am picky about even my snapshots, I really don't think you need the DSLR unless you really want to lug it around..... I would never take any of mine for normal life stuff.

Different styles for different people. I'm am amateur photographer and not a particularly talented one at that. I lug around a large DSLR all over the place. Maybe it's just me, but my DSLR pictures are vastly superior to my p&s pictures, inside and outside of studio situations. In fact, the difference between the two is larger when shooting in poor conditions. In most circumstances, the difference is large enough that I'm willing to put up with the bulk and complexity of the DSLR to get the better pictures.

I generally agree with Master Mason's assessment. I would add a few points. First, losing the crop factor isn't as bad as it seems. You can do the cropping and magnifying in photoshop. That solution is not as optimal as shooting with a smaller sensor, but it's not all that bad.

You also get higher resolving power. Full frame sensors generally have higher resolutions. They also use larger lenses or more of the image circle of standard sized lenses. In either case, that should help with resolving power.

Another benefit to using full frame is that diffraction is less of a problem. At higher apertures, you lose sharpness because of diffraction. The effect depends on the size of the sensor (smaller is worse) and the size of the magnification of the display/print (bigger is worse).

One other negative is that they use more of the outer edges of lenses. Lenses tend to perform best in their center and worse the further out you get. That sometimes means that a lens that works great on a cropped sensor will vingette or get soft on a full frame sensor.

boBQuincy

09-13-2007, 09:33 PM

The advantages would be: larger sensor / larger pixels for less noise; larger brighter viewfinder;

Disadvantages include: large and heavy; no built-in flash; old technology;

The 5D has been out for awhile and it's possible some of the newer 1.6x cameras have about as low noise as the 5D by now.

With the introduction of the 10-22 lens I don't see much of an issue with the lack of a good wide angle lens anymore. Unless you need 17 or 22 MP there may not be much reason to look at full frame.

H.E. Pennypacker

09-13-2007, 10:07 PM

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I'm definitely an amateur, but I do know how f stops work. And I know what ISO is, too! I even remember when it was still called ASA. ;) Most of the time I shoot in either aperture priority or full manual. Shooting in auto or program mode doesn't teach me anything. I want to improve my skills and develop my artisitic eye by playing with aperture, shutter speeds, etc.

Can anyone comment on the statement that when you start getting up around 10MP and beyond in a DX format DSLR, the number of pixels are kind of overkill? That you aren't really getting a sharper picture because of the limitations of the smaller image circle of a DX lens? Not my words, just what I read. Is their any truth to this? I assume it ties in to what Mark said about full frames having higher resolutions because of the larger image circle.

I think the main reason I'm starting to consider something like the 5D is what Master Mason said about wide angle lenses. One of my goals is to make some nice framed panoramic landscapes to hang in my home. Yes, I know I can take a series of shots with a standard lens and stitch them together in Photoshop, but I really want to experiment with an ultra-ultra wide lens and they just don't exist for DX or 1.6X DSLR's.

H.E. Pennypacker

09-13-2007, 10:22 PM

With the introduction of the 10-22 lens I don't see much of an issue with the lack of a good wide angle lens anymore. Unless you need 17 or 22 MP there may not be much reason to look at full frame.

This sort of answers the last part of my previous post. Except this is a Canon lens, right? So I'd still end up having to replace my current Nikon DSLR with a Canon DSLR. How does the 10-22 compare to the Nikon 12-24, aside from the obvious 2 millimeters?

Karrie Davis

09-14-2007, 12:21 AM

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 12:34 AM

I am really sorry, I was not trying to be a snob. I am really surprised at the emails I got from Mark being so nasty and calling me names (yes, I get the ip address are sent from with the area and I knew it was you....). I was really just trying to give my personal opinion. I only put my website to support that I am a professional photographer, maybe you took it wrong but it was not meant to be an in your face kind of thing. I am a really nice person who is always willing to help anyone who contacts me.

It is a real shame that someone would send such a mean and hateful email from this site.

I will no longer post on the photography thread at all, I really did not mean to make people think I am a snob. I really just wanted to share about a good point and shoot camera that honestly works just as well as a dslr.

I will remove my website info so that I do not get anymore nasty emails - BTW, my children can read these so thanks a lot :(

I am still a mom and a person with feelings just like most of the people on this forum......

Was it addressed from Mark or are you just making an assumption that it was from him. Sorry I have seen Mark in action for quite a while now, and I have a hard time believing he would send you an email that would call you names etc.... Unless your sure it was him, because it came from his email or he signed it, then I think you owe him an appology.

I had to rewrite my response to your post 3 different times because, I was trying to make sure it expressed my disagreement with your post without being offensive. Your post came off as arrogant and condesending, if you meant it that way or not.

Now you compond it by accusing a long time member of this forum with sending you nasty emails....

Karrie Davis

09-14-2007, 12:41 AM

He did not put who it was from but it is from and IP address in TX.... He is the only person upset on the forum from TX and the email came in shortly after his rant here....

Why, did you send it?

Maybe the person who really is the jerk should say sorry!

I am no longer checking this thread so say all you want about this- The truth is your photo are the same no mater if you have a great DSLR or a great P&S. All I was trying to say is I am picky about all of my photo, almost too hard on them. BUT, they are just as good as my DSLR's when I take a P&S out for snapshots. Sorry for offending anyone, if you knew me you would not have sent me this email. Especially right now!

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 12:49 AM

He did not put who it was from but it is from and IP address in TX.... He is the only person upset on the forum from TX.

Now that is a pretty large assumption... There are many folks that post here regularly from TX, and there are 30K some odd people registerd on the disboards.

Again, you owe the man an appology for slandering him without knowing it was him.

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 12:51 AM

Kind of like the assumption you made that an "amature" couldn't possibly know what they were doing with apeture to be able to create shallow DOF photos, and that they should just stick with P&S cameras....

Do you care to stick your foot any further into your mouth?

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 01:01 AM

Why, did you send it?

Maybe the person who really is the jerk should say sorry!

I am no longer checking this thread so say all you want about this- The truth is your photo are the same no mater if you have a great DSLR or a great P&S. All I was trying to say is I am picky about all of my photo, almost too hard on them. BUT, they are just as good as my DSLR's when I take a P&S out for snapshots. Sorry for offending anyone, if you knew me you would not have sent me this email. Especially right now!

Well maybe you'll see this an maybe you won't since you edited your post after I responeded..

But perhaps you should say your sorry for being a jerk to a very nice, very humble man who you accused unfairly.

As for your statement that they are just as good as from a DSLR or a P&S, in some cases your correct, but if that was always the case, then why did you just order a D300, when you could easily get the same quality with your p&S. Surely you don't need to spend that much money if you can get the same quality photos from your fuji now do you??? And all those profesional photogs are just wasting their money buying 1 series canons and dx series nikons huh???

Sorry this is usually a very friendly board, we have all levels of people from those that are buying their first ever camera, to people that make their living taking pictures, but I have never encountered anyone as arrogent or condecending towards others as you have shown yourself to be on this section of the dis.

And trust me, if I was going to send you a nasty email I would have signed my name to it, so you can be certain it wasn't me.

BTW, I did look at your site, and your talented, too bad your not nice as well.

Karrie Davis

09-14-2007, 01:34 AM

I am upset that I was taken for being a snob, and that someone would email in a way like I was email. I will admit it may have been someone else and not who I thought it was. Mark, I am sorry for being so upset and thinking that the email was from you. If it was not from you I am sorry.

I truly an not a meen person and honestly say this with all my heart, I did not mean that post to sound the way it was taken. I give photography advice all day long to people who call or email me. If they think they need a camera that can run the professional gamut I point them to a DSRR, I also tell them to learn to shoot RAW, to learn photoshop and to learn how light works. I am not a snob about it, I tell them how to get the best shoots possible and how to go from there. If they want to take the best snap shot I tell them about the P&S camera I mentioned. I understand everyone wanting to take the best photos of their children, that is why I got my 1st DSLR too. So, I am sorry for sounding like I did. I never thought someone would start sending me hate emails.

I work part time in the morning so I can be home with my family who mean the world to me. I started in the same place many Mom's with camera start and I am alway willing to help. If it means that they can fulfill a love and be there for their family I will always help them as much as I can. I have posted thread here on the forum for step by step photoshop how to to make your trip and home snapshots look there best -

I never said anything about "amature" - I never even used that word. amatures generally do know as much as many pros do. I was personally refering to someone who really believes that a DSLR will solve all the photography issues they every had without understanding or even wanting to learn the camera and what it can do for them. I can not tell you how many friends and clients have the same cameras I have and still keep them on program. On program or with the on camera flash a DSLR will look about the same as P&S in most cases. With some of the new technology in the Fuji camera it thinks better in program then most DSLR's do. If you truly want to take the time with your snapshots and turn them into something really specail do it but if you are not go for a really fast, not shutter lag p&s.

Again, I am sorry. I wish I was not getting the email I was getting though and still do not see how I deserve that......

Master Mason, I understand you defending your friend, I would do the same thing.

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 01:54 AM

Karrie,

If someone from this site sent you a nasty email, then that is reprehensable, and should never have happened. And I am sorry that they did it.

If you are the general user that is not a pro in a studio or location session it really will not make a difference in your photos. I can't speak for others, but it was this sentence that got to me. I don't care how you read it, what you said was that if your not a pro in professional session, then you might as well have a p&S. Well, as I have said, I have seen some magnificent pictures here and elsewhere produced by amatures, and yes a lot of them were with p&s's but a fair number of them were with dslrs, that can do things that a p&s simply can not do.

I am sure you understand that there are limitations to a p&s. And some folks want to take their photography beyond those limitation. Yes there is a learning curve, but even on auto, the size of the senors on a dslr mean you will have less noise than a p&s camera.

If you'll take a little time to look around this board, people are recommended all the time to look at the better p&s cameras when that is what will truely fit their needs.

In the case of the OP, they are currently using a dslr, and wish to expand their horizons, this is a good thing and is to be commened. Your post if you meant it that way or not was telling them they were wasting their time and money since they weren't up to the profesional catagory and that was simply wrong.

I will take your word for it that that is not what you meant, but I wanted to take a moment and explain to you why that is the way it was taken.

Anewman

09-14-2007, 02:26 AM

It is a real shame that someone would send such a mean and hateful email from this site.

"Mean and hateful" is in the eye of the beholder...

No disrespect but some persons are just more sensitive than others, some feel any differing opinion is an attack. You have stated opinions(almost as if they were fact) and some misinformation(full frame requiring crop for 4x6), if anyone posts a differing opinion or correction it is not an attack.

Feel free to post the email and see if the responsible person takes credit and if it is considered nasty by his/her peers.

He is the only person upset on the forum from TX and the email came in shortly after his rant here....

You see this is exactly what I was referring to, you saw his post as a "RANT" and as him being upset... I dont see his post as such, but yes it appears he is in Texas.

removed
because of some one sending hateful and nasty emails to me -
A couple notes... feel free to remove your website but it does little good if your Dis user name is the same as the URL.

But what I wrote did no warrant getting such an email sent to me that my children could read - that is pretty lame!

According to a website with your name and from the same city as yours, you have ONE CHILD not "CHILDREN", and the age of that child is a little young for reading and especially young for being EMAIL literate. I guess it is more dramatic the way you make it sound.

MarkBarbieri

09-14-2007, 07:00 AM

I am really sorry, I was not trying to be a snob. I am really surprised at the emails I got, being so nasty and calling me names . I was really just trying to give my personal opinion. I only put my website to support that I am a professional photographer, maybe you took it wrong but it was not meant to be an in your face kind of thing. I am a really nice person who is always willing to help anyone who contacts me.

It is a real shame that someone would send such a mean and hateful email from this site.

I will no longer post on the photography thread at all, I really did not mean to make people think I am a snob. I really just wanted to share about a good point and shoot camera that honestly works just as well as a dslr.

I will remove my website info so that I do not get anymore nasty emails - BTW, my children can read these so thanks a lot :(

I am still a mom and a person with feelings just like most of the people on this forum......

I did not send you any e-mails or even Private Messages. I am appalled that anyone would send you hateful e-mails because of an opinion you posted. I have vigorously disagreed with posters on this forum in the past but always with respect for their views. In fact, some of the people with whom I have had the most disagreements are also among my favorite posters on this site.

I did disagree with much of what your wrote, but my response was here on this thread and, I thought, a respectful presentation of my different viewpoint. I would hate to see this forum development into endless acrimony or alternatively into a place where no one expressed contrary opinions. I think that we all benefit from hearing different points of view.

I did not interpret what you said as snobbery. In fact, your support for the use of a point and shoot camera over a DSLR in the field is almost the opposite of snobbery. I'm afraid that I and other people passionate about DSLRs sometimes have the unitended affect of making it sound like P&S cameras are inadequate. It is my personal belief that a reasonably good point and shoot shooting in good conditions can perform quite close to a DSLR. It is when conditions are not "good" that the difference starts to become apparent.

Again, I am sorry that someone sent you e-mail you found offensive. I didn't send you any e-mail or private messages.

MarkBarbieri

09-14-2007, 07:06 AM

Mark, I am sorry for being so upset and thinking that the email was from you. If it was not from you I am sorry.

Your apology is sincerely accepted. I can only imagine how angry I would have been in your situation and can easily see how you would have made the assumption. It really wasn't me and and I'm really appalled that such a thing happened.

You'll find that, an occasional passionate debate over trivial issues like UV filters, lens mounts, and such, this is a pretty laid back and supportive forum. We could all benefit from having another pro shooter on the site. In fact, to the extent that I disagree with you, I think that makes you are more, not less, valuable addition to the forum. Differing opinions are of great benefit to the readers here.

I wish you the best whether you remain here as a poster or whether you decide that this isn't the place for you.

boBQuincy

09-14-2007, 08:27 AM

This sort of answers the last part of my previous post. Except this is a Canon lens, right? So I'd still end up having to replace my current Nikon DSLR with a Canon DSLR. How does the 10-22 compare to the Nikon 12-24, aside from the obvious 2 millimeters?

The Nikon and Canon wide angle lenses appear to compare favorably, both are good performers with some vignetting and CA but still very good for such a wide angle. I have Canon's 10-22 and it is a really good landscape lens, especially when you just can't move back any farther.

With respect to the image circle, a larger sensor (with the same pixel pitch) will capture more information but 17-22 MP is getting beyond the resolution of many lenses. Unless you buy L glass (or Nikon's equivalent) and use mostly prime lenses it may be difficult to see the difference.

H.E. Pennypacker

09-14-2007, 09:12 AM

FWIW, I wasn't offended by the post that has managed to derail this thread. I understand Karrie's point, which I think is this: for cookie cutter snapshots, in most cases a P&S will give you just as good of results as a DSLR, without the extra size and weight. For the most part, I agree with this - on my last trip to WDW, I didn't take my Nikon, I took my little Lumix TZ3, and got some really great shots. I also got some really bad shots that probably would have been better if I had used my DSLR.

So... getting back on topic - Master Mason mentioned that the 5D is a bit "long in the tooth." Any idea when an updated 5D, or a similarly priced, full frame replacement to the 5D might be coming out?

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 10:17 AM

My guess is after the the new year, typically they release new cameras twice a year not sure the exact months though

Anewman

09-14-2007, 10:59 AM

So... getting back on topic - Master Mason mentioned that the 5D is a bit "long in the tooth." Any idea when an updated 5D, or a similarly priced, full frame replacement to the 5D might be coming out?

Canons Release history has shown a pattern of updating models on a 18 month cycle, but that is not set in stone or else the 5d replacement would have arrived 6 months ago.:confused3

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 11:07 AM

Canons Release history has shown a pattern of updating models on a 18 month cycle, but that is not set in stone or else the 5d replacement would have arrived 6 months ago.:confused3

True, but with the release of the new 1 series full frame I personally expect it to follow in the next release of new cameras

not sure if it is good or bad that I don't have a spare 8 grand laying around for that one though, looks pretty nice

Geoff_M

09-14-2007, 01:30 PM

Personally, unless I was primarily concerned with landscape photography, I would have zero interest in a "full-frame" dSLR. You can argue all you want about how photo site size impacts image quality, but sensor technology improvements seems to be same trajectory as CPU development in the 1990's. I remember people poo-poo'ing the D2x before it was launched that, because so many photo sites had been crammed into the APS-sized sensor that the image quality couldn't possibly be worth a hoot. While not the greatest camera since sliced bread, it's performance seemed to exceed a lot of the nay-sayers predictions.

My advice to you is to wait for a full set of images and some independent reviews to come out on the D300 and see if it's to your liking. While the D3 is getting most of the photo media attention right now, a lot of people think that the D300 may be a scene stealer based on price/performance.

SharonLowe

09-14-2007, 01:35 PM

Getting in a bit late on this discussion - boy has it been a wild one:rotfl:

Anway, I shoot with a full frame Canon 1DsMkII; I love it for my professional work and use it for fun too. But, it is a bear to lug around WDW or most other places. There are times I think to myself that I wish I had a much lighter camera. But, the 5D is much lighter (lots of it due to using a smaller and lighter battery) and it is a wonderful camera (with a pretty short battery life).

Is a full frame worth the move from Nikon to Canon? I doubt it. First, as others have said, the 5D is due for a replacement. No idea when because they will want to get in those $8k orders in before offering a less expensive alternative. Plus, the 5D is still quite a bit more than the D300 and you will need a whole new set of lenses, which will be expensive. Full frame cameras are not at all forgiving on lens quality so you will have to get L lenses to do it justice, preferably primes. Use the money you save and get the widest good lens Nikon has and a panoramic head so you can take those really wide angle shots you want.

As for depth of field, I get that knowing how to use the aperture of my lenses, no matter the size of my sensor....

Karrie Davis

09-14-2007, 02:35 PM

Anewman - my son is now 4 and he can read but it was not him who read it. It was my 12 year old niece who is staying with me while my baby sister goes through medical treatments to hopefully save her life. My children should have been said as "the minors living in my home who are under the age of of reading email that have cuss words or things like f%*& you you stupid B %&@#" - and no I will NOT post that email as it was the worst of 2 I got. The other was more about me being a jerk and a snob and that they would never do business with me and that my posting lost me lots of business. They were both uncalled for. Why don't you just leave me alone now - I have said sorry and fully explained where I was coming from. Sorry I have not updated my sons age or that I have other minors living in my home. My 12 year old niece is on this forum a lot too, she and my nephew are going us on our upcoming trip this winter since they are now under my roof......

Thanks every one else for understanding what I was trying to say.

I would appreciate no more emails and no more posting picking me apart.

Groucho

09-14-2007, 07:18 PM

FWIW, I wasn't offended by the post that has managed to derail this thread. I understand Karrie's point, which I think is this: for cookie cutter snapshots, in most cases a P&S will give you just as good of results as a DSLR, without the extra size and weight.
I wouldn't even go that far, Disney parks are challenging to shoot and test the limits of PnS cameras all the time. (Just look at how many new visitors pop in with complaints about their camera being too slow, or making pictures that are too noisy, or too blurry, or both...)

For me, it's all about the sensor. Until PnS cameras start having sensors that aren't as outlandishly tiny as they are, I'd going to continue to suggest that people who want better quality should go to a DSLR. If they don't want to learn the in-and-outs, fine - keep it on Auto or the scene modes, but you'll definitely get much sharper photos. (I did a comparo a few months ago of WDW shots with my 6mp DSLR and my wife's and sister's 6mp PnSs with some examples.)

Now that I've said that - about depth of field and specifically bokeh, shouldn't that be the same on a full-frame vs a APS-sensor DSLR? The non-digital lenses are putting exactly the same image onto the sensor as you'd get on a full-frame, the only difference is that the edges don't hit the sensor and are effectively cropped - so the bokeh (and everything else about the image) ought to be exactly the same?

Back on the original topic, the advantages of full-frame are obvious, a bigger sensor can mean greater sharpness and detail and 35mm lenses will retain the correct 35mm focal lengths (ie, a 16mm fisheye will show 180'), the downsides are that you don't get the extra "effective" zoom of the crop factor, the body will be bigger and heavier, there's no full-frame offering in-body image stabilization yet, and you won't want to use the smaller/lighter/(sometimes)cheaper digital-only lenses due to vignetting.

For a photographer not shooting things that'll be shown at poster-size, I doubt there's any real need for full-frame at this point. Heck, even Canon's $6,800 Mark 3 uses an APS sensor.

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 07:38 PM

Now that I've said that - about depth of field and specifically bokeh, shouldn't that be the same on a full-frame vs a APS-sensor DSLR? The non-digital lenses are putting exactly the same image onto the sensor as you'd get on a full-frame, the only difference is that the edges don't hit the sensor and are effectively cropped - so the bokeh (and everything else about the image) ought to be exactly the same?

Groucho, the answer is no, a full frame will be better, just as medium format film was better than 35mm. It has something to do with "circle of confusion" but other than the fact that it exists, I haven't taken the time to understand it.

For a photographer not shooting things that'll be shown at poster-size, I doubt there's any real need for full-frame at this point. Heck, even Canon's $6,800 Mark 3 uses an APS sensor. actuall the aps sensor is about 4500, the full frame new mark III runs about 8K.

Groucho

09-14-2007, 08:15 PM

Groucho, the answer is no, a full frame will be better, just as medium format film was better than 35mm. It has something to do with "circle of confusion" but other than the fact that it exists, I haven't taken the time to understand it.
That darn circle of confusion still confuses me, I haven't taken the time to understand it either. I thought that the difference came from different sensors combined with lenses designed for those sensors. It just doesn't make sense to me that the same lens mounted on a full-frame vs an APS camera will produce a different image, assuming that the sensors are basically working the same and have similar pixels-per-square-inch.

actuall the aps sensor is about 4500, the full frame new mark III runs about 8K.
I was going by the price at Beach... $6,795 if I remember right. Regardless, that's certainly a "pro" camera that is still using APS, and it definitely costs a good chunk more than the 5d, at either number.

boBQuincy

09-14-2007, 09:00 PM

The Circle of Confusion is an arbitrary thing, sometimes defined as what would look acceptably sharp on a print (or a monitor). It has to do with the degree of enlargement so even though the lens absolutely does project the exact same image on a sensor no matter what the size of the sensor, the COC changes depending on the size of the sensor.

Since the degree of enlargement depends on the size of the sensor, APS would have to be enlarged more than full-frame and so would have a smaller circle of confusion. Full-frame is not really better, it just allows more enlargement before the COC causes apparent unsharpness. On a small enough print there would be no apparent difference, just like on our 800x600 online images there is no real COC difference between APS, FF, and probably P&S sensors.

Geoff_M

09-14-2007, 10:00 PM

To further illustrate that a FF sensor is not inherently "better" than an APS-sized one, look at Bjørn Rørslett tests comparing the then new Nikon D2x 12 MP "APS" dSLR against the Canon 1Ds Mk II 16(!) MP "FF" camera. See: Link (http://www.naturfotograf.com/D2X_rev06.html#top_page)

The smaller-sized lower pixel-count camera, in Bjørn's tests, produced images that held their own, or where even better in some cases, against the camera with the "full-frame" sensor.

Master Mason

09-14-2007, 10:25 PM

never mind...looked at it wrong

Anewman

09-15-2007, 02:46 AM

Anewman - my son is now 4 and he can read...

I would address this in PM but do not want to be mistakenly accused of sending hateful messages.

I never mentioned his age and I am not saying he CAN NOT read just that it was awfully young to read EMAIL... but now I am just trying to figure out how your son turned 4 if he turned 2 1/2 years old on August 2nd 2006.

My husband was not sure if we should go this year because our son might me a tad shy of the 40 inch mark too. I got the unofficial guide to Disney and realized how MUCH there is to still do. We went last year as well and did not realize all the great rides without the book, we missed so much that we WILL NOT miss this year :) We will be there in November and my son is 38 1/2 inches with out shoes but he will be 2 ½ on august 2nd so I am pretty sure he will grow

I did not know about your niece and nephew since your recent posts about getting a house for your December trip specifically mentioned that only your family of 3 were going.

There was not need for any profanity laced emails period, regardless of kids reading them or not. But there is no need to make it seem more dramatic than it actually is either, because in the end it can take all credibility down and then some might even doubt the existence of the alleged emails.