SeaWorld-Ethical Question ??

[rickhasco]

Hi.
We're hopefully going to Orlando again in December. We 1st went in 2003 and I specifically avoided SeaWorld and Discovery Cove because of the "animals in captivity" issue. Maybe it's watching "Free Willy" too often or also that I've swam with Dolphins in the Sea in their natural environment as opposed to a "manufactured" Lagoon.
I understand the Conservation whilst in captivity versus Extinction debate so am considering going to visit this time.
However, I've looked at SeaWorld's website and unless I'm looking in wrong place, cannot see any literature to reassure me ??
What are others thoughts ??

[JohnnySharp2]

Ultimately how you see this is a personal thing, everyone has their own opinions.

Having visited Sea World many times I know for sure they do an awful lot for the well being of the likes of Manatees, their programmes have saved the lives of many of these over the years and play a large part in saving them from extinction.
It is also a very educational park and there is information on view at all the attractions on the various threats these creatues have to endure in their natural habitat.
They do pay special attention to the way they are looked after also, the Penguin's environment at the parks changes according to the natural yearly cycle and climate.

There are aspects of Discovery Cove that personally I am not all that keen on, I don't think Dolphins should have to pull people along in the water for example.

It's a difficult subject, and again one that will get a number of differening views, at the end of the day we all have our own opinions, but I know for a fact SW have saved many creatures lives over the years and in many instances return them back to their natural habitat - however, there is no point in returning them if they will not survive.

Using their experiences in an educational way is a good way of bringing awareness to people.

[wayneg]

Agree with Johnny again(doing too much of that recently:lmao: )

There are little things I don't like, for example the walrus in Wild Arctic has been doing the same repetative movement for as long as we have been visiting him, he just goes round and round the same course over and over again. Obviously should not be in there but too late to do anything for it now.
On the whole I think SeaWorld and Busch do more good than harm for the animals. We just did a tour down at Busch last week, hired a guide for the day he was from their education department, very interesting, told us about the animals they take around the schools to highlight the problems with extinction and the rainforests.
What you see in the parks is a front to bring in money, behind the scenes I hope they are doing as much as what they make out to be doing.

[JohnnySharp2]

Agree with Johnny again(doing too much of that recently:lmao: )



Nothing wrong with that mate - if we agree on something we are usually right.;)

[Goofyish]

Chech out this website:

http://www.seaworld.org/

[Graeme]

I think it all comes down to how you feel about it. All the literature in the world wont help if you still feel uncomfortable looking at it. The walrus example of Wayne's sums it up perfectly.

Anyway, how ethical is it to train otters to steal things?

[Girlsontour]

Don't forget the polar bear, who also has the same track that he follows over and over again. I never visit zoo's in this country and do feel slightly guilty when visiting Sea World and DC but i have never admitted this to my family as they seem to enjoy both places...who knows, perhaps they feel the same as me, but just don't want to say anything. I think that the information that Lucy has learnt from Sea World is excellent and far more "hands on" than any amount of teaching in a classroom could provide.

By the way , I have just asked eldest daughter what she thinks about Sea World...she thinks that the animals are loved and couldn't be forced to do anything that they didn't want (probably meaning Shamu show).... she doesn't like the walrus and polar bear bit...see, i should have spoken up before!!

[disneyholic family]

we went to sea world once and felt very uncomfortable for this reason...(animals in captivity being "forced" to perform, etc.)
so we haven't been back since....

but it's not as if i think any less of anyone who does go and enjoy it..
it's just that we felt uncomfortable so we don't go...

[Goofyish]

I don't think the animals are ever 'forced' to perform. If an animal doesn't want to do something it won't (especially if you are the size of a killer whale).

We were actually at Seaworld once and the Shamu show was cancelled because he didn't want to come out and perform.

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

All of the animals at Sea World (and Animal Kingdom) are in the union and are well-paid.

BobK/Orlando

[wayneg]

All of the animals at Sea World (and Animal Kingdom) are in the union and are well-paid.

BobK/Orlando

Thats good to know. We don't need to tip them then:goodvibes :lmao:

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Then again, taking that line, should you go near Disney World (Animal kingdom, The Tiki House, Country bears jamboree, that poor mouse,) Bush Gardens, Gatorland, Universal studios (Cat in a hat for heavens sake!!)
And don't forget all those yummy restarants which serve captivity meat and fish. Only food you can eat is what you have captured yourself and skinned, meat, fish and of course vegetables, the ultimate bred in captivity food.

Then agsin, what about the destruction of the planet by flying to Orlando?.
:rotfl2: :rotfl2:

[disneyholic family]

Thats good to know. We don't need to tip them then:goodvibes :lmao:

if no tip, perhaps they'd like a gift?.. a fish?...

there are places around the world, where sea mammals live in semi-captivity...maintaining their family groups, with the freedom to go out to sea and return, and are not trained at all to perform (they do perform sometimes because they enjoy the interaction with humans, but they are not specifically trained to perform)...

when you see a place like that, you realise the difference from a place like seaworld...

but again, i have no real problem with sea world....we personally were uncomfortable there...but i would never campaign to shut it down or something like that....they are very good to their animals and take very good care of them..

[disneyholic family]

Then again, taking that line, should you go near Disney World (Animal kingdom, The Tiki House, Country bears jamboree, that poor mouse,) Bush Gardens, Gatorland, Universal studios (Cat in a hat for heavens sake!!)
And don't forget all those yummy restarants which serve captivity meat and fish. Only food you can eat is what you have captured yourself and skinned, meat, fish and of course vegetables, the ultimate bred in captivity food.

Then agsin, what about the destruction of the planet by flying to Orlando?.
:rotfl2: :rotfl2:

that's so true.....it's unbelievably cruel for those bears to have been nailed down to the stage all these years...
and the birds since when?....1982.....isn't there a law against that?????

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

that's so true.....it's unbelievably cruel for those bears to have been nailed down to the stage all these years...
and the birds since when?....1982.....isn't there a law against that?????

And what about Barney, the only living dinasour, expected to perform every half and hour day in day out.........

[wicket2005]

Another side of it, is that it does allow people to see animals that they would probably never see which may help more people understand about animals and their needs.

Shamu and company certainly only perform if they want to. We were at a show once and the 3 whales were having none of it. They were supposed to be performing the new Believe Show instead of the Shamu Rocks America show. The latter show was a lot better in my opinion and it seems the whales agreed to because a similar show is now back on, on an evening.

Totally agree about the walrus and polar bears. These creatures certainly do not look happy.

[disneyholic family]

And what about Barney, the only living dinasour, expected to perform every half and hour day in day out.........

:rotfl:

[Alibaba]

Hiya
I once asked one of the Seaworld staff, the ones who give you info as you are walking past the Polar Bears etc that as soon as the Arctic ride thing shuts that the animals (Walrus, Polar Bear etc) go through to a larger pool area, and also in a couple of cases that there are actually 2-3 animals and they are on a rotation. So, although it is a bit cruel, it is slightly better (but who knows they may have been telling me fibs to ease my concience)
Thanks
Ali

[cazzie]

When we did our dolphin swim at DC our dolphin wasn't really interested and kept swimming off, the trainer told us that it's okay they never (or can't) force them to do something they don't want to do and let him do his own thing so we stayed a bit longer and they used another dolphin.

[DCDMarkyG]

I guess it's the same as anyone owning a dog, we domesticate and train with reward of food and praise. It's just a little unusual seeing a killer whale do the same thing, but no more unusual than riding a horse or using an elephant to fell trees. It's your personal opinion where you draw the line in captivating and training animals. If any of the animals were upset and wanted to have a large meal they would only need to open their mouths during the tricks!!
If there was any evidence of abuse of the animals at any of the parks it would be worldwide news and people would stay away for good.

Also would anyone love killer whales as much if the only time you saw them was on documentaries ? Conservation is pushed hard in the park and the message hammered home in all exhibits.

I'm of the opinion that if a captivated whale splashes a young child and inspires enough magic in the child to make a change later in life then it outweighs the moral dilemma.

We went in 2005 in a large group, all the kids views were changed and first thing on the xmas list each year is sponsor and whale or sponsor a dolphin.

When I read news in this country of cruelty to animals, I'm confident that the love and admiration that Seaworld gave my kid will ensure they never hurt an animal.

[PoppyAnna]

I watch this thread with interest.
We visited Seaworld in 2001 as a couple and enjoyed the day, I felt the message re: conservation and rescue were strong and I came away with a good feeling. On all honesty we were there more for the rides.
We visited Seaworld this year in May with our two DD's and my Mum, I felt during the "I believe" show "Shamu" was sluggish, bored and reluctant to perform. How did I feel this about a killer whale, you may ask? I can't explain it rationally it just seemed he needed lots of coaxing by the trainers, too many fishy treats to do the next trick and so on.
The Dolphin pool was the same, I felt there are too many Dolphins in there for the size pool and swimming around in the same circular motions to "interact" with these people shoving their hands in the water just didn't feel right.
We don't visit Zoo's in this country, I prefer to take my children to farms to witness animals up close in a more familiar environment - I know there aren't too many Dolphins at my local zoo but I would rather try to explain to my children that the farm animals there on a farm for a reason (milk, meat etc) and that they will have to wait until they are lucky enough to see other animals in their proper environment.
I came away from Seaworld feeling uncomfortable thinking that I'll never go back again.
As we are going back to Orlando next month we will not be going to Seaworld or AK but we will be going to Busch gardens which I am a little nervous about, we'll wait and see how it turns out and how I feel about it.

[mama4321]

When we swam with the dolphins at Discovery Cove a couple of years ago, the trainers talked to us about how and where to touch the dolphins. It was all very controlled and we felt happy that the dolphins were ok and that there welfare was treated very seriously.

The next day we went to Seaworld and encountered the dolphin pool where crowds of people were putting their hands in and touching the dolphins anyway they wanted with no controls at all. That left us feeling very sorry for the dolphins who were just looking to get fed and so needed to come near the edges of the pool.

I'm afraid we felt very uncomfortable with this and some of the other aspects of Seaworld. We won't be rushing back.

[Girlsontour]

And what about Barney, the only living dinasour, expected to perform every half and hour day in day out.........

Everyone seems to have forgotten about the recently captured Yeti....he seems to have to hang about the roof of a cave, hardly seeing any daylight:rotfl:

[Lizzybear]

I have to say I feel a bit like this, I still don't like the idea of Discovery Cove for partially the same reason (also swimming with a dolphin just isn't something that appeals to me in the least..) I didn't really enjoy any of the SW shows, I prefer to go for Kraken and to look at the non performing animals. This year may be the first (together) last time me and bf go to SW unless (thinking into the future here *lol*) we go with kids one day and they want to go. I just wanted him to go as he's never been and it didn't cost much extra as a combo with a BG ticket. When I went last time I didn't even spend a full day there.

[SimonV]

The other big factor in this debate is that so many animals are now born into 'captivity', that the only option is to keep them at places like SW and BG (and use them as great examples of how we need to do better with conservation and environmental issues). Animals born at places like SW and BG simply cannot be released back into the wild as they would never be able to fend for themselves, while there are actually fewer and fewer areas for some animals (like the African Highland gorillas at BG) to be realsed back to. Therefore, you either have to stop animals breeding in captivity so they don't perpetuate the zoo system - or you have to use the zoo system to educate people about what is happening in the rest of the world. Provided zoos like SW and BG do the latter, I am very comfortable with what they do. The alternative, to my way of thinking, is a much less caring society where we go on destroying animal habitats at a frightening rate :(

[cleo]

I was going to say something along the lines of what DCDMarkyG mentioned regarding family pets. Although they are domesticated animals now, cats, dogs, horses, etc, were not always domestic animals. They no longer live in environments natural to their species, no longer act in ways natural to their species and survive because people provide the means for them to survive. Are we wrong to do this? Does the mutual love, care and devotion to and with our pets (abuse cases aside; no one could argue that is the typical 'family pet' experience) have any merit, or should all pet ownership end? I would argue most family pets live a far better, more enriched, more secure life than if they remained wild. After all, wild dogs sought out human companionship, to their benefit, and vise versa. It was not a one way street. There a similar behavior in wild dolphins, even when left to their own devises.

SeaWorld and Busch Gardens especially, but also Disney, have a very strong moral and ethical philosophy when it comes to the animals entrusted to their care. However, if an individual is uncomfortable with animals in captivity, no amount of care or concern on the part of the animals owners or trainers will change the fact they are captive and will remain that way. They have great respect for the animal's desire to 'perform' or not, the work they do has (in my mind) huge benefit to the species as a whole and to people as a result, and that outweighs, for me, any concerns about captive-bred animals remaining 'captive'.

But it's a personal choice. There are other park choices if SeaWorld does not fit in with your own sense of right and wrong. :)

[PaulaSB12]

But killer whales are not domesticad nor can they be. They are bred and then shipped to other parks when in the natural state they stay with their family groups for life. Look at the pools, see how small they are this is for animals designed to travel for miles how deap are they? why is there no enrichment equipment or any cover to protect them from the elements like the sun?

http://cfhs.ca/wild/marine_mammals_in_captivity/


When Sea world opened some moron decided to do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-I40PpmOY4

The killer whale was put down for someone's stupidity. There have been attacks on trainers by killer whales. New killer whales put in groups in other sea parks have been killed. One of the killer whales in Orlando was in a group of whales that about 15 years ago drowned a trainer. There has also been incidents of self harm by whales on them self probably down to depression and boredom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GozjUStn_wU

Come december I am going to see killer whales how they should be swimming in the sea at Norway, I will even be snorkelling with them. I am sorry but it past time to stop breading them let them die off and not replace them, with some animals groups do help to conserve them but not by doing unnatural tricks in small paddling pools!

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

the problem is that if you are going to be true to an "ethical" way of life, you would not go to Florida at all.

vast tracks of swampland have been drained and given over to building for humans and yes, that has to include Disney world and the other parks.
Many gators get found in peoples pools and on site at disney because their homes have been drained and they have nowhere else to go.

When we first went to Florida, Disney was half the size it is now, Kissimmee was a small cowboy type town and all along the 17/92 were orange groves (again, a produce that drained the swamps to allow these groves to be built)

The point is where do you draw a line without affecting any wildlife??

[cleo]

You make a very good point, Obi. Because Disney's development disrupted so many natural habitats, they were required to 'minimize the impact' by setting aside the land that is now Disney's Wilderness Preserve. But talk to the animals who lost their homes and their lives so we could have the Magic Kingdom & Co and I'll bet they don't feel the Wilderness Preserve is much compensation.

It's a pretty far stretch from captive whales, I supposed, but then again, not really.

I would argue that Killer Whales can be domesticated, in a fashion (they DO survive and thrive in captivity, as is evidenced by the fact they breed and their young also survive), and they certainly have their family group around them at SeaWorld. They also respond favorably to their handlers, which is further evidence they are 'domesticated'. There are loads of enrichement programs for them and they are protected from the elements, appropriate to their needs. You never see a sunburnt or otherwise weather-damaged whale at SeaWorld. Their health and safety is of paramount importance.

But again, if you're against any animal being kept from their natural habitat, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, that's where you draw your line. Nothing wrong with that, and in that case, visiting the other parks is the right thing for you and for your family.

[rickhasco]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone on both sides of the divide for their contribution is this emotive subject.
As mentioned previously, I had the pleasure 16 years ago of swimming with Dolphins in the sea in Israel and I honestly do not think anything could equal that experience. Likewise, when I last went to Orlando, I visited Gatorland which gave a clear indication of how the Tourist Industry has taken away animals natural habitats. I think in all honesty, I will probably give Seaworld a miss for although they do a great deal for Conservation, in my mind, animals like Shamu should exist in their natural environment.
Thanks again
Rick

[DCDMarkyG]

This is a fascinating debate and I can understand both sides.
Snorkling with wild killer whales is not something I would sign up for unless its after they've had a huge meal first !

Just to add another twist to the debate, would you let your kids watch Free Willy or Flipper ? The revenue for these films perpetuates the training of killer whales and dolphins and portrays a cartoon image of predatory species. However the false image of these creatures also helps them survive because of the romantacised image promoting conservation.

Like most things in life, there is no black and white, you just pick the lightest shade of grey you are comfortable with.

[T16GEM]

Another side of it, is that it does allow people to see animals that they would probably never see which may help more people understand about animals and their needs.



I must agree with this, it's important that you remember how much conservation work the parks do, as do the UK Zoos etc. We took our kids to Twycross recently and while I do feel sometimes that the enclosures could be bigger etc they kids are never going to get a chance to go into the jungle to see some of the monkeys and other primates that they have there so they would miss out on seeing them. I feel that it's important that my children are made aware that we have endangered species and exactly what they look like, the internet is a great thing but it's not the same as seeing them swinging through the trees. I know some animals look like they are unhappy, but I am sure that they would be even more unhappy if they were released into the wild and didn't have their daily bucket of meat bought to them - they would never fend for themselves.

However, I don't agree with keeping Barney in captivity - poor thing! :lmao:

But each to their own, it's up to you whether you visit the parks or not.

[rickhasco]

I thought I would re-visit this thread with our eventual "outcome" as it was such an interesting debate.
We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??

[JohnnySharp2]

Thanks for the update and I see you kind of found your own answers.

It's always going to be something that attracts differing opinions, the one thing they do always emphasise is a number of the dolphins, manatee's etc they have simply wouldn't survive in their natural habitat.
Many are recovered and cared for at Sea World.

[PoppyAnna]

I thought I would re-visit this thread with our eventual "outcome" as it was such an interesting debate.
We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??


Thanks for the interesting update.
Couldn't agree more :thumbsup2

[Grumpy John]

On a lighter maybe they should finally release the dinosaurs in the Animal Kingdom and all those poors things at Jurassic Park in IOA

[disneyholic family]

thanks for the follow up!!

[paulh]

thanks for the folow up,did you visit AL and if so did disney hold up better on the animal welfare front? as i find then beter than seaworld
Paulh

[orlandothebeagle]

What a interesting thread, this always bothered me, but they do seem to do good, but ultimatly they do it to make money, I do believe though if they are in captivaty it is better they do stuff and be stimulated, like ineract with people, I know it is not ideal, in an ideal world they would be out there in the ocean not being fished by certain countrys(not even going to go there)
Mum went on a dolphin adventure thing in Jamacia and said it was a disgrace, but discovery cove she was happy with:confused3
I dont know.That said I did enjoy discovery cove.

[PudseyChancer]

We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??

Whilst this thread is indeed interesting, it's hardly a fair comparison. I don't know how you can have expected to have had your previous experiences of interacting with dolphins and whales in their natural habitat, repeated with those in captivity. Perhaps you may have enjoyed going to the various parts of Seaworld that relate their valuable work in helping treat injured dolphins, manatees, etc, more than visiting the areas that you had considerable concerns about before you travelled. :confused3

[Deedee]

I personally love seaworld where else would i be able to see and get up close to these gorgeous creatures. After visiting seaworld on one of our first visits i came home and adopted a Manatee until i visited seaworld i have to admit i had never heard of them. There was a documentery on a few years ago about seaworld Orlando and what happens behind the scenes and i must admit they do a fantastic job with these creatures rescuing them and nursing them back to health, they did make a point of saying some of them would never survive in the wild so they have no choice but to keep them in captivity.

[tttessa]

Hi - I'm with Deedee -

I think it is nice to get to see the animals up close, and the conservation aspects of what the corporation do are wonderful.

The bit that quite upset us this year was the feeding the dolphins bit - so many people grasping out at animals, it felt like being forced to watch a bullfight type of thing... We walked on by , but still you could hear it....

Never fancied Discovery cove - I am not putting my babies in a tank/pool/whatever with animals with that many teeth!! I saw the bruise on my friends leg after her trip! Her dolphin was apparently "being playful".

Tessa

[Edie]

We went on the 'Behind the Scenes' tour at Wild Artic and the staff member who took us on the tour was telling us about taking the walrus out for a walk! She said that the walrus, like the sea lions, are very smart so they try to change their routine when they can and they particularly enjoy rolling around on the grass. She did say that occasionally they don't want to go back to their pool and so the trainers wait with them until they are ready to go back in. By the way this all happens out the back so don't worry about coming face to face with a walrus :scared:

I noticed that the dolphins in the feeding pool do get their own back occasionally. One annoying little kid was teasing one of the dolphins by splashing it in the face. Fortunately I stepped back at this point having guessed what was coming. The dolphin turned around and slapped its tail in the water drenching the kid and his family. The kid cried and everyone else laughed :lmao: Serve the little b*gger right.

Having said all that it's not the perfect environment. I constantly change my mind about it but they do look after them as well as they possibly can.