does this happen alot, people who make reservations only to sell then?

[tripletvan]

I was just looking at the rent/ trade boards & noticed a couple of the dates that I am on the waiting list for are "for sale". Is this an acceptable practice? Won't it hurt those who are members from getting their reservations while any Joe can "buy" a reservation at a members home without joining DVC?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Cinderella]

Joe, I know it must be upsetting but, I think some people make bookings then rent them out *** it is easier that way. I did notice on ebay that the bids were higher for points that gave definite dates.

But, over the millennium, some people were trying to rent out points for ridiculous sums and I don't think they all got sold.

I suppose that those points belong to another member somewhere and they are entitled to do what they want with them too.

Have you gone on a waitlist. Maybe something will come up if you do that.

[Peterd]

I agree tripletvan, it use to bother us too, but there's nothing we can do about it. I know they can do with their points whatever they want to, but sometimes it doesn't seem right that a non DVC member can "buy" a ressie that you're waiting for on the waiting list. It used to be great before the BW and Okw sold out, we could leave a day early for our trip and get lucky and pick up an extra night at the last minute. Not anymore. It now forces you to use the eleven month window almost all the time. You could always answer the person's ad for the nights you want, and ask to trade your future points for the resv. Then bank the ones you would use for this year. The person trading with you doesn't lose the points, and you get what you want. I wouldn't get upset over it though, eventually, when enough people complain, they'll have to change it.Good Luck on the waiting list!

[Pluto4President]

Well, you are not "supposed" to rent out your points for a "commerical" purpose. It does, however, seem that some of the posters on the Rent/Trade board do just that. But you also have to look at their posting habits. Some of the ridiculously cheaper points are from "new posters" or phantom posters.

[Dean]

I suspect I'm going to regret this but we've been through this before. Members are expressly allowed to rent the points, it's mentioned in a number of places in the legal paperwork. There is one piece of info preventing renting as a commercial venture. Renting one's regular points could not reasonably be construed as a "commercial venture" and whether a profit is made or not has no real bearing on the situation. The reality is that any member that rents their points can legally and by DVC rules do so. DVC could not prevent the rental anyway, no more than they could keep you from renting out a condo you might own.

In order to be in violation of the POS and legally enforceable, one would need to have an actualy Business of renting points. Those that would like to label any non family rental over the dues fees as a commercial rental are, as my daughter would say, delusioned.

While I know it's frustrating to see what you need on the open market, it's reality. The only way to prevent this issue would be to have fixed weeks and fixed units but I don't think we want to go there. This is no different than someone that gets a 2 BR and only need a 1 BR. If someone has what you want, go get it at an agreed upon price.

[tripletvan]

Hey I don't live in a perfect world but it just rubbed me the wrong way & I was curious as to the frequency of this practice. This may be a negative in many peoples eyes. Why buy if you can rent & get almost all the benefits?

[BuzzandWoody]

I had a ressie at BWV the 1st week of May.
We since decided we couldn't go. I tried renting the reservation on the rent/trade board.

I had to use these points this year, and had to go this route.
Things happen in peoples lives. Although there are those that do it for a profit I guess.

Got alot of inquires for other dates at other places.

I canceled that reservation and rented the points to other locations.

I know I made someone happy that was on the wait list for this week.

Most people already have dates that they want to go.

Stay on the waitlist and hope they cancel.

Good Luck

[Pluto4President]

no reason to regret Dean, nicely worded.

[nuthut]

Well said, Dean.

Why try to control what others do with their property?

[Werner Weiss]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Won't it hurt those who are members from getting their reservations while any Joe can "buy" a reservation at a members home without joining DVC?
Keep in mind that the points that members own at DVC resorts correspond directly to the available member room inventory at those resorts.

It doesn't matter if a member uses points to occupy DVC accomodations, to rent out DVC accomodations, to exchange DVC accomodations into II for a week somewhere else, or to book accomodations requiring Reservation Points such as a cruise or Concierge Collection resort (in which case the equivalent DVC vacation points go to CRO which then rents the DVC accomodations to cash guests).

None of these ways of using points either increase or decrease the capacity available to other DVC members. When "any Joe" stays at a DVC resort for cash, whether renting from a DVC member or from CRO, that stay was paid for with DVC vacation points, just as if a member had stayed. (Note: CRO also rents out undeclared inventory at DVC resorts that have not yet sold out, but such inventory can't be booked with points anyway.

[CaptainMidnight]

This is no different than someone that gets a 2 BR and only need a 1 BR.

Nonsense, if they have the extra points and desire the room, a two bedroom is one thing. But that's no analogy to reserving peak times for profit.

With a point system and people deliberately booking the hard to get sought after dates that by normally predicted demand would be available only to sell them as a business venture is a violation of fair use practices in my opinion and a business venture that is not consistent with the DVC contract.

If you own fixed weeks and rent them, I don't see that as the same thing as reserving hard to get DVC periods with no intention of every staying and putting the reservations up for sale. That seems like pretty much "scalping" type endevour, and while I see lots of them outside big event venues, it doesn't make it right.

My hope is that the rent/trade board is a vehicle to make up for missed plans, a vacation that fell through, or something like this. I guess I just have too much faith in people's good nature.

Dean, you have many great contributions to this forum, but I'm going to differ with you on this one. But I won't be labor it. Hope your next visit to DVC is a nice one.

[PamOKW]

This is a discussion that comes up from time to time. I'm in agreement with Captain Midnight's line of reasoning. As long as the number of people who are playing the system remains small, the DVC system will continue to work. When it becomes one rental company vs. another rental company vying for prime rental periods we will have a problem. Just like everyone theoretically has a "fair" chance to get tickets for major events, we know scalpers end up with the lion's share.....that can't be allowed to happen at DVC and I hope that DVC has a method to prevent that from happening.

[hindle]

Hello All

Ok, I will admit that I am the "jerk" who posted the sought after vacation week. I apologize for any misunderstandings that may have happened with the upset DVC member. However, I booked that vacation with every intention of going. I go every year with my family. It is the only place I go on vacation. I admit that I am new to this but I did not make this reservation with the only intention of selling them for a major profit (i.e., scalping as someone would suggest). I lost my job in January and really can't afford to go. I thought if I could sell the reservations for those exact dates, Great!! If not, then I would still go on those dates. CONSIDER THIS.... I have plane tickets for those dates too. I will lose that as well.

Even though I don't owe any of you an explanation for my actions I thought you should all be aware that there is always a story behind everything and what you are thinking is way off base. I'm awful sorry if you wanted those dates and if they get cancelled I will let you know.

[PamOKW]

Hindle -- I wasn't even paying any attention to a specific case. Your situation is the type that I think most people are okay with renting. My problem is with the small, but possibly growing, trend of folks who are really into a rental business. They are not using their points for personal purposes. They aren't even finding a person who wants to go to DVC and booking the dates they want. They are intentionally booking during the prime seasons with the sole intent of selling the reservation. They have no intention of using those dates themselves and have discovered they like making money more than they like using DVC for their vacation.

[Peterd]

Pam, I agree.
Remember when a few, ( as I would like to call them)scalpers reserved up GVs at the Okw over the millenium new year? The only purpose was to MAKE money. They were not struck with some sort of change in life, that they had to sell. They were there for one thing only, to lock up a prime time spot and sell it to make money.
Hindle, stuff happens. We all know it here, so you were not being singled out. Most people didn't read your rental post, but as Pam said, most people don't have a problem with it. Don't take it personal. I earlier mentioned for the poster to offer an exchange in points, that could possibly benefit both of the parties.
It's ok to disagree. I agree with the poster that it does bother me sometimes when you're on a waiting list for a week, and someone is selling it to a non member. I also agree, that they are your' points, and you or anyone else can sell them to anyone you want to.

[Richyams]

Renting does hurt us and the vast majority of it is done in a manner that really hurts us.

Almost all renting is done Sun-Thurs.

This inordinate use of weekdays hurts the occupancy rates and has two bad effects, it raises our dues and makes it more likely that DVD will have to even out weekdays vs weekends.

I also agree that there is nothing we can do about it, but it is a bad thing when it is done as a business.

[CaptainMidnight]

Hindle,
I wasn't thinking of your specific case either. And, a DVC who intends on vacationing, but has to change thier plans for some reason, (and I can think of a ton of them, like jobs, new children, health reasons, etc.) should be able to sell their points to try to recoup thier $$$. I'm glad that option is available. I think I described the actions with which I have a problem, so I won't redescribe it here. I just didn't want you to have the wrong impression that I was singling you out, because that was not my intent.

But using DVC as a for-profit, grab up the best reservation times with no intent to stay, only to sell to others to make money "business approach" is not OK with me.

Hope things work out OK for you.

[drusba]

If we go back to the original question-- do you think this happens a lot--I believe the answer is no. Consider that DVC has about 60,000 members. As far as a rental market goes, it is essentially non-existent except on the internet. You have a place on this site and a couple of other sites and e-bay to rent and thus if you look closely enough you can see about everything that is going on in the rental market. You will see a handful of people who seem to be in the business of renting, some others who appear to rent out some of their points mainly to cover dues and perhaps make a few bucks, and, for the most part, a dozen or two members at any given time trying to rent stays they have to give up because they cannot now go or members renting points because they cannot use them before they expire. In other words it looks like there is a very tiny rental market when you consider that there are 60,000 members.

Moreover, it is not the kind of market where someone can go into the business of renting and expect to make a lot of money. First there are limitations on the number of points anyone can buy (2,000 at one resort, 5,000 total) and thus rent. Second, the average rental rate of $10 a point is not reassuring to persons who would want to be in the business of renting--they have to pay high dollars for the points, they have to pay dues, they have to find customers, deal with the risk of market collapses like right after Sep 11, and expect other problems like customers who cancel, fail to pay, or expect you to be available 10 times a day for a phone call to talk about the reservation. Moreover, if they are in the "business" of renting (meaning they are essentially doing nothing but buying lots of points and then renting them all), they are required to remit the regular resort rental tax (11% for WDW area resorts) to the appropriate government authorities.

In other words, I do not look at it as something to get concerned about. The problem with surfing the internet is that many get to see the renting that is going on but don't consider that they are actually seeing ALL the renting that is going on and it isn't much. Members retain the right to rent. The "commercial venture" limitation in the documents really applies only to someone who actually does go into the business of renting with no intent of using any points himself. There may be some of those but not not enough to cause any real concern.

[tripletvan]

Wow I didn't know how heated this would become as I am fairly new at this and somewhat aggitated that I have tried at the 11 month point to make a reservation only to be waitlisted for my "home" and see that non DVC can get what I tried fairly to get.
Is this something that DVC should look into with a resolution to the "home owners" getting first prefrance? I don't know just a thought.Not out to upset anyone.

[HeatherPage]

The only thing I can say is you'd have to be "nuts" :smooth: to not think there are a few people out there renting their DVC points strictly for profit.

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Is this something that DVC should look into with a resolution to the "home owners" getting first prefrance?

It's unlikely that this would ever happen - even if members would OK it (I wouldn't), it is impractical to manage such a system.

Does it mean that the owner must actually be staying in the unit? Does it mean that if I make a reservation for my daughter (not an owner) but an "owner" wants it, her reservation gets cancelled so that the owner can have it?

If you mean owners get some type of "time preference" to make a reservation, you might still have the same problem. What if I make a reservation and then call later to add or change names? What if I don't show up, but my "guests" do? Do we make MS (or the front desk CMs) into "reservation police"?

I sympathize with your feelings. It is frustrating to be on the waitlist and see the time you want listed as "for rent". My point is only that the "cure" could be much worse than the "disease".

I agree with drushba - the actual amount of this activity is small in proportion to the number of members and points. The people who rent points have the same opportunity to reserve time as the rest of us. I hope the waitlist comes through for you and that you next reservation gets made without the waitlist.

[tripletvan]

Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers & I definately didn't call anyone a jerk! I just was & am a bit upset that I followed the rules such as calling at the eleven month point for owners only to be on the wait list while non members are at our "home"

[Werner Weiss]

Originally posted by CarolMN
I agree with drushba - the actual amount of this activity is small in proportion to the number of members and points. The people who rent points have the same opportunity to reserve time as the rest of us.
I agree too.

The number of points that members rent out on the Internet or to their friends is probably tiny in relation to overall DVC activity. If you look at the return on investment when you take initial cost, annual dues, and business risks into account, it's really not a good business model.

If you're concerned about the effects of renting, a much bigger area of interest should be the number of nights that CRO rents out and what days and dates and seasons are transferred from DVC inventory to CRO inventory. That's where the big numbers are!

Every time a DVC member books a Disney Cruise, a Disney Collection hotel, a Concierge Collection hotel, or an Adventurer Collection package, such a transfer takes place. For example, if I book a Disney Cruise for 600 points, CRO gets a corresponding amount to DVC resort capacity to rent to cash guests; that generates the money to pay for the Disney Cruise.

I have no idea what percentage of points are used by DVC members to book cruises and "Collections," but I wouldn't be surprised if a third of all DVC points each year are used in this way. I have no reason to believe that anything is going on that's counter to the interests of DVC members. And I think most of us think the cruises and "Collections" are a valuable part of the DVC program (even when it's not the most efficient use of points).

Does anyone know the criteria for what seasons, dates, room sizes, "weekday vs. weekend," etc. are transferred from DVC to CRO? Is anyone concerned?

[Ricola]

I am concerned about how the "rules" apply to CRO's use of "points" transferred to them via member exchanges, and usable by them via "unsold inventory". I find it hard to believe that they need to sit on hold 11 months out (I doubt they use any points in the 7mo window) to get rooms during peak, desirable times.

As for the rest of the discussion on this thread, I think that rental of points is one of the by-products of the flexibility that we all enjoy in with the DVC program. I would not want to se it eliminated or curtailed, other than the "commercial use" already prohibited. What difference does it make whether I stay in my unit or whether someone else does? How does that affect costs? If I wanted to rent out a "peak" week, I'd have to go through the same process as anyone else that wanted it, and have an equal chance of getting it, right?

[MulanMom]

If I recall correctly, the POS for DVC, later OKW, mentioned something about DVD (Disney Vacation Development) retaining 4% of the ownership interest to rent out to the public via CRO. I would think any openings generated by trade-outs would provide inventory in addition to that amount.

It can be frustrating not getting what you want (i.e. a reservation you're on a waitlist for or a building you wanted for a special occasion....yep, been there!), and it's easy to resent others who did get it. However, there will always be non-DVC members at the resorts.

I don't think the renting for profit issue is large enough to really make much of an impact on the regular DVCrs. MS is in a position to see if it becomes a problem and would most likely be the only one to start any action against it.

Just my .02! ;)

Sharon

[CaptainMidnight]

I'd have to go through the same process as anyone else that wanted it, and have an equal chance of getting it, right?

Nope, it's a different ballgame and is by no means the same.

Families and individuals normally using DVC for thier vacations would balance time away from work, and other variables to help balance out how often they would actually be able to go during the peak times, if they want to use that level of points, which ends up providing a balance and resonableness of use, while a "scalper" type operation would not be balancing those variables, just going for the high dollar peak times to try to turn a profit. Two different usage patterns, two different motives, one I'm OK with, one I dissagree with, not that I have much of a say other than to voice my concern here.

Renting your points out because something fell through, you couldn't go that year, those kids of things are fine with me. Comercial use where reservations are made without any intent to stay and sold out only for profit is not OK with me, and I suspect and read above, several others. Renting shouldn't be elliminated. Abuse of the renting priviledge for comercial purposes is a different matter and probably should be addressed.

Perhaps we could also start talking about the locals coming in and using the resort pools somewhere in this discussion?

[MulanMom]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
Perhaps we could also start talking about the locals coming in and using the resort pools somewhere in this discussion?

That has happened to us many years ago. It was before kids, so we were able to spend many hours lounging by the main pool at OKW. Everyday, the same three ladies were there. We thought they were other vacationers as well. But one day, we overheard conversation that indicated they were locals but not staying in rooms at the resort.

I haven't encountered anything like that since. I didn't realize it was a common practice.

Sharon

[Ricola]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight


Families and individuals normally using DVC for thier vacations would balance time away from work, and other variables to help balance out how often they would actually be able to go during the peak times, if they want to use that level of points, which ends up providing a balance and resonableness of use

So someone who is retired or someone who always wants to stay Christmas Week without "variation" shouldn't be allowed? Don't scalpers have to call for a ressie 11 months out just like you, me, and everyone else? I would assume that sometimes they are unsuccessful. And if someone is forced to rent points, why shouldn't they choose to reserve during a time when they are likely to be able to rent them?

The high demand times are just that, high demand. Usually because they are the times when more people want to and are available to go (holidays, summer, spring break...) For DVC members, and for the general public. That's why they cost more, in points and dollars.

As I said, other than strictly commercial use (never intending to stay), I think people have a right to use their points as they see fit. Why do you have more right to a room than someone else who has paid (through the person they are renting from) the same amount as you?

[Dean]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight


Nonsense, if they have the extra points and desire the room, a two bedroom is one thing. But that's no analogy to reserving peak times for profit.

With a point system and people deliberately booking the hard to get sought after dates that by normally predicted demand would be available only to sell them as a business venture is a violation of fair use practices in my opinion and a business venture that is not consistent with the DVC contract.

If you own fixed weeks and rent them, I don't see that as the same thing as reserving hard to get DVC periods with no intention of every staying and putting the reservations up for sale. That seems like pretty much "scalping" type endevour, and while I see lots of them outside big event venues, it doesn't make it right.

My hope is that the rent/trade board is a vehicle to make up for missed plans, a vacation that fell through, or something like this. I guess I just have too much faith in people's good nature.

Dean, you have many great contributions to this forum, but I'm going to differ with you on this one. But I won't be labor it. Hope your next visit to DVC is a nice one. It's ok to disagree and we do on this point. In my view it's really no different than the fixed week/unit analogy. AS LONG AS THE MEMBER GOT THE RESERVATIONS IN A WAY THAT WAS THEORETICALLY AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE, it's their unit to rent, use etc. The fact that one person can't schedule a full 11 months out for some reason or can't call when thy open is irrelevent. I know you didn't propose this but it's been a common "reason" why some say it "isn't fair". I'd have to agree that reservations gotten not available to all MEMBERS AT THAT RESORT, like the special season preference list or the lottery, is a different story and probably not appropriate to rent. I'm sorry that some people feel that other owners OWE them something. I consider many on this board and other boards to be my friend but don't feel I owe them any more than I owe any one else, simply to be honest and fair. We all bought into this system and must take the good with the bad. Having such a flexible points system gives this type of situation.

While I've rented my points several times, I've never went out and gotten Xmas or whatever with the express purpose of renting. I can't remember ever renting Xmas or Easter. I simply chose not to do it this way. The only time I've used an auction for DVC is when I had a member agree to rent then back out after I'd borrowed the points. I then put it on auction and got exactly what I asked for it and what I had agreed upon before the person backed out. This is one of the reasons I get a little miffed when people start talking about renting only to members as this was the only negative issue I've had renting and it was with a member who is also a member of this board. Every person I've rented to that wasn't a member has been in awe. I've even gotten gifts after they returned they were so impressed and appreciative. I'll shut up now, at least for now.

[fkj2]

Did I miss something? I didn't realize this was a "heated" discussion. Actually, I thought pretty much the contrary....some good points were brought out and Dean is right, it is OK to disagree.

I rented points out this year due to circumstances whereby I can't presently use them, although I do schedule some time just in case my personal situation would allow me a break, which truthfully, I really need. On the other hand, I don't want to lose the equivalent monetary value of the points. And, like Dean, I don't schedule or hold Christmas or Easter. And then there is the issue of CRO; I'm sure Dis hasn't any second thoughts when that inventory is freed up to "rent".

I'm not sure it would be such a bad think to even out the points over the seven days. That would eliminate this Sun through Thursday thing. As it is, I sometimes spend my first night offsite, just to save on those high point nights but there's an inconvenience to moving the next day. Plus, Dis inadvertantly created some of these problems. It used to be The early part of December was a "slow" time but now that the point requirements are low and the Holiday decorations are such a draw, that it no longer is a "slow" season. The same can be said about the time in Oct/Nov with the Wine Festival.








.

[Lhargus]

_fkj2_____________________________________________ _____
I'm not sure it would be such a bad think to even out the points over the seven days. That would eliminate this Sun through Thursday thing. As it is, I sometimes spend my first night offsite, just to save on those high point nights but there's an inconvenience to moving the next day.
__________________________________________________ _

The only problem with evening out the points is that local members could then take most of the week-ends leaving the rest of us out in the cold for week long trips.:cool:

[Dean]

Originally posted by tripletvan
Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers & I definately didn't call anyone a jerk! I just was & am a bit upset that I followed the rules such as calling at the eleven month point for owners only to be on the wait list while non members are at our "home" I don't really think you ruffled anyone's feathers. You just sparked a discussion that has occurred from time to time previously. I'm confused a little though. Did you call at exactly 11 months out at 9 am each day for your reservarion and not be able to get what you needed? While I understand your frustration the other member also called and used their points which they are also entitled to do as an owner.

As to evening out the weekend points, I don't think making it exactly even would be the answer unless the minimum stay were increase to at least 3 days. If the usage is too uneven weekend vs weekday, DVC should adjust the points somewhat but just fine tuning. I can tell you if the points for the weekend and weekday were the same, I'd stay about 10 long weekends per year.

[tripletvan]

Yes I called starting at 9:00 am eleven months out but did not get through until nearly 11:00 am that day due to the lines being busy and working in a classroom and not being able to stay on hold for long periods of time( I have been on hold for up to 35 minutes) . I did try diffrent combinations as I really needed a two bedroom at our BW home for medical needs (having a therapist with us that needs to be with us in the same unit). All I was able to get was a studio and a one bedroom that we don't even know if they will be on the same floor although I have requested and had a medical necessity notated on the confirmation. MS said that they cannot tell us that we will get what we want but we can find out 24 hours in advance

[hindle]

I definetly agree that this is a great forum to hear different points of view. I am not offended in the least from any comments as long as you all are aware that I am far from a scalper. I will also say that to do this as a business for profit is very hard. It is not easy to rent points. I have tried in the past but members and non-members are looking for specific dates which may not be available thus you are constantly on the phone calling them and calling the resort. It is near impossible.

I am new at this too and I don't think I thought of members opinions and feelings before. It just never occured to me. So thank you for bring it my attention. I will think before I leap going forward that is for sure.

Also, my reservation was for a studio, so I don't think I took your reservation.

Take Care Everyone and continue to enjoy Disney. I know I do.

[Dean]

tripletvan, did you call every day or just the last day for all of your request? Sorry you didn't get what you needed, I hope you get it from the wait list and would expect you would. Good luck.

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by Richyams

Almost all renting is done Sun-Thurs.

This inordinate use of weekdays hurts the occupancy rates and has two bad effects, it raises our dues and makes it more likely that DVD will have to even out weekdays vs weekends.

.

I too would welcome the evening out of points for weekends. I have NEVER stayed at DVC on a weekend because of this. We cannot afford more points so in order to maximize our trips we stay somewhere else for the weekend, or cut our trip short should we not be able to get a good deal somewhere else (Disney, or in the case of our upcoming trip Portofino Bay).

I'm sure this thread will be moved to the debate board soon - maybe we can start a discussion of the pros/cons of evening out the points...

[PamOKW]

Although, I really don't like the whole concept of renting to strangers for money, I think there is a better way to do it that "evens things out.". Instead of renting points to people who really have no idea what that means, why not set prices?

If someone is checking in on Friday and out on Wednesday don't say it's $220 for Fri. & Sat. nights and $120 for Monday & Tuesday. The reservation will cost $170 per night or $680.

Members still face the decision of whether to spend the higher amount of points for themselves, but renters shouldn't be concerned about it. They are just given a price.

[Dean]

Pam, most people who want to rent want to know how many points it is or already know how many points then they want the price per point. Also, it's actually illegal for us to get together and set the prices, a violation of federal law.

[auntsue]

A while back when I first read about 'evening out' the points for all seven days, I thought it was a great idea, and I was ready to vote 'yes, yes, yes.' But then I read Pam's reply and the point that many other people have made, that if you even out points, the locals and members within driving distance would take up all the weekends, and then when I flew in from NJ, I wouldn't be able to stay our normal eight days. That would be disasterous for me. So, I must say that I have changed my mind about wanting the points the same every day. I really need the weekends, and would hate to see them not available because they are priced so low. I just don't see how you can eliminate the renting of points for profit. They must have an awful lot of points if they are renting out Christmas week, because for just five nights, a 2BR is costing us 362 points. Weekends were 106. Yikes!

[PamOKW]

Dean, I realize that prices can't be set by the group. I'm just trying to explain the concept -- not very well I guess. Just re-read my post and "set" may be the confusing word. I mean for the individual to offer a price for the reservation rather than a price per point....not any kind of group "price setting".

I understand that people who frequent the boards now sort of understand about the points but I still think it can be explained. Just like those of use who stay a week know we are spending "X" points for the entire week rather than "X" points on each day. If you rent a house on Cape Cod for a week they don't tell you it's $100 a night, they say it's $700 for the week. If someone wants to rent a week at DVC, why can't they be given a price of $380 instead of breaking out the cost per day? Isn't that how much of the bidding is done on E-Bay? Bidding for a trip rather than for the "points"? In reality, they aren't renting points but are paying you to use a reservation that you make at a DVC resort. You could still break it down to a price per point if that's what they want to know. A week in a VWL studio is 104 points. 12 points weekdays and 22 points on weekends. The price for a one week reservation is 1,040. That's $148.57 per night or $10 per point. If they want to stay 4 weeknights it's $480, $120 per night and $10 per point. If they want to stay 2 weekend nights it's $440, $220 per night or $10 per point.

[Dean]

Pam, I understood your basic premise initially and agree to a large extent. I'll tell you though that the vast majority of people I see wanting to rent are looking at how many points and what's the cost per point whether it's through this board or otherwise. Most of the rest are looking at a full week and surprised by how much it is then start asking what other options there are. Hence the Sun-Fri comes up at about 60% of the cost of a full week. If you're renting a unit already reserved or if you're doing an auction, you can do what you propose. Still it basically boils down to a price per point. The bottom line is that as long as the points differential is as it is, S-F rentals and stays will be common. I can tell you that I've only paid one weekend day points in all of my DVC stays and that was at VB when we had to be there Saturday night regardless.

I don't think the weekends should be evened out but suspect some minor adjustment would likely be in order. The goal would be to set the demand for each and every day the same. While this will never be perfect, I'm sure it can be improved.

[drtpaper]

If you want the week that someone else booked, simply buy it from them and sell your points. There are few people who make out on hard to get weeks. I have been watching the board for a long time and have not found points being scalped. The price difference tends to be based upon the length of time left until point expire. I finally bought into the program after going with friends and found the renter board too sparse to meet my vacation needs. I do not need all the points and will rent out some of my points through the years since we only go every 3 years.

If you are interested in prime weeks, you have just as much chance of getting it as the other members. How a member uses his points is his choice. You should reserve your prime week and cancel if you don't want to use it. If there were a ton of profit in the values of those weeks, Disney would have charged a lot more points for them.

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by Dean
.

I don't think the weekends should be evened out but suspect some minor adjustment would likely be in order. The goal would be to set the demand for each and every day the same. While this will never be perfect, I'm sure it can be improved.

Yes, even may not make sense, but I think some sort of 'leveling' is in order.

For instance, our GV in August is 55 points/night Sun-Thus, Friday and Saturday would be 123 points/night. I could rent the 246 points for $10/point, pay cash for Fri-Sat and put $400 in my pocket!

I agree a premium for the weekends make sense, I just think it is out of line at this point.

But then again, I like the cheap weekdays, I don't mind (actually enjoy) staying at other Disney/US hotels for a few nights so maybe I should just keep to myself :p

[tripletvan]

The question I originally posed was does it happen alot that people will reserve rooms only to SELL them to non members? I was curious as to are there many people who book to make a profit.I would not have a problem trading points for a weekend but do not feel comfortable with having them sold to non members.It is diffucult as I have learned to get through to MS when booking at peak or near peak season and have been shut out and placed on the waiting list. I guess you could say that frustration sparked this question.

[Peterd]

Tripletvan, if you get a chance, check your private messages.
peter

[Dean]

Originally posted by tripletvan
The question I originally posed was does it happen alot that people will reserve rooms only to SELL them to non members? I was curious as to are there many people who book to make a profit.I would not have a problem trading points for a weekend but do not feel comfortable with having them sold to non members.It is diffucult as I have learned to get through to MS when booking at peak or near peak season and have been shut out and placed on the waiting list. I guess you could say that frustration sparked this question. The answer is yes it happens but not that much. This is the system you've bought into. I'm still in the dark as to you ability to schedule. I'm still not certain whether you were calling every day and didn't get what you wanted one day or whether you were calling at the end to make the entire reservation at once and previously available days were not available to you. I was also uncertain as to whether you got through earlier and just couldn't wait on hold or if you didn't get through at all. I'm also assuming this is for BW, if so, were you open to standard AND preferred options?

I've always said that a persons personal situation had no bearing on the club. By that I mean if someone doesn't know their vacation times 11 months out or is working and can't call; that's not a problem for the Club. Personally, I take time off the mornings when I truly need to schedule my time or have my wife do it. Email followed by a phone call can be helpful in some cases as well.

[CaptainMidnight]

So someone who is retired or someone who always wants to stay Christmas Week without "variation" shouldn't be allowed?

Nope, never said this. Those who can do this are welcome to. Perhaps when I can retire, I'll be able to. This is not the same as scalping practices and is not a logical, rational justification for scalping practices. One doesn't follow the other.

I see making reservations at peak times with no intent to ever actually stay and use the points but only to sell them to others on a regular basis as commercial use of DVC points and in violation of the DVC agreement. I cannot enforce or require anyone to agree or comply with my view. In an open forum where I have the opportunity to present my views on this without personally disparaging other posters, I am here to say I see this as absolutely wrong, and harmful to other members. I also have not seen so far in this discussion even marginally reasonable points regarding why it should be acceptable to fellow DVC members. Nothing against any fellow posters, but the strength of the opposing aurgument has not yet been well made in my view.

Best wishes to all staying on thier own points at DVC resorts.

[Peterd]

"I see making reservations at peak times with no intent to ever actually stay and use the points but only to sell them to others on a regular basis as commercial use of DVC points and in violation of the DVC agreement"

I couldn't agree with you more Captain.

[Dean]

Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
Nothing against any fellow posters, but the strength of the opposing aurgument has not yet been well made in my view. It's perfectly ok to disagree and we do very strongly on this point. How about the strenght of the arguement that it would be illegal for DVC to prevent one from renting what a person owns. Besides there are multiple references in the POS saying it's ok to rent. There is this one vague statement the POS saying that "commercial use" is not permitted. Even assuming it's enforceable, which I don't believe it is legally, one would need to be obviously and repetatively renting to trigger this clause.

[PamOKW]

Hey, PeterD I think we're on the same side on this issue. ;) ;)

Sort of tying to the two threads together.....how about DVC enforcing the rules that renters are NOT accorded the same privileges as members? That could cut down on the number of pool hoppers. :)

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Hey, PeterD I think we're on the same side on this issue. ;) ;)

Sort of tying to the two threads together.....how about DVC enforcing the rules that renters are NOT accorded the same privileges as members? That could cut down on the number of pool hoppers. :)

Pam (or anyone else) - How would DVC know who is renting and who is a guest? Or are you proposing that "DVC priviledges" only be in effect if the member is actually staying in the room?

I don't like rules that are virtually impossible (expensive) to enforce, especially if there aren't any facts and data to warrant the rule in the first place. Obviously, I'm not convinced that there is enough renting activity to be concerned. FWIW, I don't pool hop and haven't rented any points. I like knowing that I could, but don't see myself ever doing either.

[PamOKW]

Sarcasm gets lost in cyberspace. :(

I truly would like to see DVC enforce their written rule about customers who pay DVC members to use their points not being entitled to the member benefits but I recognize that it is pretty darn impossible to enforce. The "other thread" discussed various things that cause over crowding when DVC'ers pool hop....this was "sort of a joke" reply. I'm sorry for the confusion.

[PamOKW]

How about the strenght of the arguement that it would be illegal for DVC to prevent one from renting what a person owns.

This is truly a question....not a challenge. If the above is true, how are condo complexes allowed to place restrictions on rentals? I know a friend's Florida condo had a problem with Spring Breakers. They instituted a policy that rentals had to be for 6 months or more. Would it be possible for Disney to require cash rentals be for a certain period of time.....such as a week or more? Once again, enforcement would be difficult but maybe not as impossible. If a member put a weeklong reservation in another name they could be required to sign a document that they were not receiving cash compensation for the rental. People might work around it but it could be a deterrent.

Once again, I can't judge whether or not the amount of rentals is worth worrying about or not. My feeling is that it is still minimal.

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Sarcasm gets lost in cyberspace. :(

Wouldn't it be great if we could "hear" the posts in the poster's own voice instead of just reading the words? I think I'd post a lot more if that technology were available.

Sorry I missed the intent/sarcasm. Feel like I've read enough of your posts that I should have picked that up.

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW


This is truly a question....not a challenge. If the above is true, how are condo complexes allowed to place restrictions on rentals? I know a friend's Florida condo had a problem with Spring Breakers. They instituted a policy that rentals had to be for 6 months or more. Pam, a good question. The problem is that any rule must be the same for everyone, in this case DVC and CRO would have to follow the same rule, obviously that's not possible. You're talking about a situation where people own the entire unit for the year. In that case, it's very possible to limit rentals to 1, 3 or even 6 months or in some cases to block rentals all together.

DVC can do things to make it more difficult. They could enforce the rules about rentals not getting the perks. I know I've rented a couple of times and told MS it was a rental but when they checked in, the cards still said member and they got the perks. DVC has even given renters the 10% discount on UMP which is supposed to require the member themselves to be staying in the SAME unit to get that discount. Disney is literally the 600 lb Gorilla so they could make it more difficult if they wanted to, they obviously could care less in this area. Those that read the "commercial use" as basically meaning anything for a "profit" are letting their desires interfere with reality.

[MulanMom]

For some reason, we had asked about the "commercial use" clause (it was a long,long time ago, so I don't even remember why, unless we were worried if you ever rented, it would be considered commercial). The response we got was more along the lines of someone actually staying at a DVC resort long enough and setting oneself up in business working from the villa/room and hanging out a shingle. That was in the early 90s when very few folks had any idea what impact the internet would have with renting/selling points or resales.

Sharon

[DisneyCrazy]

I think Dean brings up a VERY good point for those opposed to renting to 'strangers'. DVC/DVD in fact do this, with their 4% and all the points exchanged (II, DCL, etc) - it's not like it is only 'us' that are staying there.

I personally don't every see myself renting (out) points - I need MORE the way it is (just wish I could afford it!), but I don't see anything wrong with someone using their points as they see fit. We all have the 11/7 month windows to deal with, if you get it before I do then it is my lack of planning and luck.

The 'strangers' bit is a little off base too I think - I've heard a few stories of friends being made via DVC point rentals.

Also I think the 'commercial use' as MulanMom was informed makes more sense - DVC was meant for vacations, not running a business - no matter the party on vacation.

[fkj2]

I doubt Disney would be interested in taking the time, expense and aggravation of patrolling who stays at its DVC resorts.


The other thing is, if it's your family/friends who are using your points, how is Dis supposed to discern between them and another nonmember who may have rented points? I would imagine that most members that have given their points to family or friends would hope that they would enjoy the same privileges as the member him/herself.

[PamOKW]

I agree fkj2 that it would be difficult to enforce. My guess is that the rule is in place just in case DVC rentals ever cut into Disney's rental of hotel space. If it were profitable for them, they would find a way to make it happen. There is a lot of language in the contracts warning against anyone trying to go up against Disney in the hotel rental business.

As things stand now, I agree that trying to enforce this would risk putting people we give "gifts" of trips to at a disadvantage. It isn't worth that.

The only real concern I had with rentals, and when the practice really first came to light on these boards, was when people booked NYE 1999 hoping to turn a profit. I thought that was abusive since DVC had done anyway with the Priority List and went with a lottery to be "fair" and also limited the number of rooms people could book. People took advantage of this attempt to be "fair". In the end, I don't think many of them realized the riches they had hoped for. I would just hope that if a special situation like that arose again that some other restriction, like requiring a member in the room, might also be added.

[^^^ SnowBunny ^^^]

We are not DVC owners and to be quite honest, do not intend on joinging specifically because of how easy it has been to rent points from other members. I feel if you can rent them at $7 or $8 per point - you are getting an awesome deal on what the room normally sells for. We like OKW and the cheapest we could get it with an AP rate would be comparable to renting someone's points at $10 per point. Hence, no incentive to buy here. Maybe that will change in the future if travel picks up and others don't rent out their points but with 60,000 + members I don't see that the rental market will close.

As far as pool hopping is concerned -- if I have a card that says "dvc member" and we feel like enjoying the day at SAB we will. I'm sure there's many that agree on that and many that disagree and honestly everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

It's obvious that to the members who have invested in the steep purchase price that it irks you to see others come along and rent without plopping down the purchase price - and that's fine. I am enjoying DVC and still keeping $20K in the bank and saving on dues. Disney might not be for us for the next 40 years, so I prefer to do things this way. I realize that per point (actual cost) it comes to like $5 or $6 per actual point - and if we rent for $7 like we've done - I don't think we're doing bad at all!!

I do not have any desire to begin a battle in cyberspace so this will be all I post on the subject. Good day everybody!! :)

[Dean]

Jeannette, why is it wrong for someone to rent what they own. It's not the way I've done things but I can't blame someone who does. It's their's to rent and I don't feel they owe you are I anything as long as they got the reservation that was available to everyone else. The lottery or special season priority list would be different to a certain extent. If they don't get enough to make it worthwhile, they will quit.

[newt1912]

Originally posted by Dean
Jeannette, why is it wrong for someone to rent what they own. It's not the way I've done things but I can't blame someone who does. It's their's to rent and I don't feel they owe you are I anything as long as they got the reservation that was available to everyone else. The lottery or special season priority list would be different to a certain extent. If they don't get enough to make it worthwhile, they will quit.

Dean, please remember I am still very new with DVC, having just bought in Jan. and I am still learning so much from these boards. I was so pleased to learn about the Rent/Trade Board and see that there is actually a market for renting out points that a member is unable to use. My hesitation in joining DVC had to do with what do we do with this investment if something in our lives changes and we cannot get to WDW some years because of business, illness, etc.? To learn that I could rent my points to a willing buyer at the going rental rate gave me an added feeling of having made the correct choice with DVC.

Sorry, but what I saw on EBay just bothers me. Perhaps my feelings will change in the future but I sure hope not. I sure hope I never feel it is fair to wait by your phone first thing in the morning 11 months in advance of prime holiday seasons to book your home resort, only to turn around and sell that resort stay to the HIGHEST BIDDER. This is so much different than what goes on in the Rent/Trade area of these boards. What I saw on Ebay was selling prime holiday season vacation to the Highest Bidder.

Hey, I love living in America and I guess in America this type of free enterprise goes. As a DVC member I guess I will just have to learn to accept this practice as something that some members decide to do with their points.

[DisneyCrazy]

Originally posted by Dean
The problem is that any rule must be the same for everyone, in this case DVC and CRO would have to follow the same rule

Dean,

I agree with you on the whole renting issue, but I disagree on this statement. The 4% DVD holds is not in member inventory, therefore they would not need to abide by the same rules - correct?

Now I would think the points CRO has from exhanges would need to follow the same rules.

But, I've been wrong before (or so I've been told :p )...

[Dean]

Originally posted by DisneyCrazy
I agree with you on the whole renting issue, but I disagree on this statement. The 4% DVD holds is not in member inventory, therefore they would not need to abide by the same rules - correct?

Now I would think the points CRO has from exhanges would need to follow the same rules. The point was that the basic chance to rent must be the same, same number of days, firm restrictions, etc. Rules that a system puts on themselves like cancellations, deposits, etc can vary. It's just that DVC can't tell a member they can't rent when they themselves are doing so.

[CaptainMidnight]

There is a lot of language in the contracts warning against anyone trying to go up against Disney in the hotel rental business.
Agreed. Trying to claim that it would be illegal for Disney to enforce this language is distorting things a bit and certainly isn['t a stated fact. They may not choose to enforce it, but it is not illegal for them to do so. Continually making reservations at peak times with no intention to stay and with only the intent of renting the points to others could easily fall under the description of commercial use as described in the agreement.
...one would need to be obviously and repetatively renting to trigger this clause
Agreed, when using the term "scalpers", the folks falling under both the description above are the ones I'm talking about. The terms "obviously and repetitively" apply, and I would also throw in during peak times, but that's just because that is probably the most harmful to those using DVC for the intended use of thier own stays.
I don't think anyone here is talking about the occasional renting of points to prevent a loss or recoup a year when vacationing isn't possible, its those setting it up as a regular business venture. I've rented a few extra points to extend a currently scheduled vacation before, and was glad they were available.

While subletting timeshare weeks might be fine with other timeshares where weeks are purchased and exclusions are not described in the purchase agreement, with the DVC point system and the system of balancing of points and seasonal/holiday demand, in my opinion, scalping practices in the DVC point system hurts fellow members, and deprives them of availability that the balance of the point system and design of the model would otherwise have available. Commerical use as described above detrimentally skews the point model. I guess it is like many things, someone tries to take advantage and abuses a weakness or area of lack of enforcement they have found in the system to the detriment of others. Such are the practices of the local pool crashers, whom Disney is apparently not actively enforcing. Just because they get away with it and it's not being enforced, doesn't make it right.

That's probably all I'll have to say on this, I was planning to stop with the last post, but thought some statements were being presumed as facts, that really aren't.

Happy DVC stays, all.

[DisneyCrazy]

There are, what, over 1000 rooms available at the three WDW DVC resorts?? How many 'peak period' ressies have been for sale here or on eBay, maybe 10? So 1% of the available rooms are not available to members wishing to stay on points. OF the hundreds of thousands of points in the DVC system how many are used this way? Is this REALLY a pervasive problem, I think not.

[Peterd]

DisneyBunny great Post! It reminds me why I would only exchange with other members. I believe in the future, as the economy turns around, the for rent posts will become less frequent. As for your card stating DVC member so you can get all the benefits you deserve, I recently had a discussion with a higher up at DVC. Because of some complaints by members, in the near future only the members themselves will have DVC on their keys, not the people they sell, I mean rent out their points to. I like to forward the posts from renters on these boards to him from time to time to show some of the abuses that should be changed.

[Dean]

Originally posted by Peterd
It reminds me why I would only exchange with other members. Frankly, I think you give members too much credit. While ALMOST everyone I've dealt with about rental questions have been extremely nice, my experience overall has been more positive with non members than members. The one truly negative I've had was with a member and members seem to be far more willing to low ball on price, at least in my limited experience.

As for your card stating DVC member so you can get all the benefits you deserve, I recently had a discussion with a higher up at DVC. Because of some complaints by members, in the near future only the members themselves will have DVC on their keys, not the people they sell, I mean rent out their points to. I like to forward the posts from renters on these boards to him from time to time to show some of the abuses that should be changed. [/B]If they can find a way to enforce the rules as written and eliminate the extra benefits for renters, that's very appropriate. The trouble is defining between guests and renters and guests are definitely entitled to all member benefits except the 10% UMP discount and the cash rental discount.

While they may start to enforce this one provision, I can tell you that overall DVC does not care about the renting situation and will not go to great lengths to enforce the appropriate rules much less putting themselves out on a limb by trying to put up any roadblocks. Much of the anti renting sentiment here is just wishful thinking and much is trying to read something into the rules that is not truly there form a legal standpoint. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it but overall it's more of a legal discussion of what can DVC legally do and within that framework what does the rules say specifically and enforceably. I've already stated what I feel the rules say and DVC could AND COULD NOT legally do if they wanted.